The Megyn Kelly Show - New Casey Anthony and JonBenet Ramsey Revelations, and Overcoming Envy, with Mark Geragos, Marcia Clark, and Dr. Laura | Ep. 438

Episode Date: November 18, 2022

It's Megyn Kelly's birthday show! She's joined by best-selling author Dr. Laura, host of The Dr. Laura Program on SiriusXM, Tom Brady and Gisele's divorce, sacrificing for your partner in a marriage, challenges of social media, snapshots vs. videos in life, overcoming envy in your life, motivation vs. discipline, aging and exercise, Dr. Laura's dos and don'ts for the holidays, and more. Then Marcia Clark and Mark Geragos, all-star lawyers, join for a special Kelly's Court on Casey Anthony speaking out again and seemingly placing blame on her father, the evidence against her, NBC's decision to air a Casey Anthony special, the latest in the JonBenet Ramsey case, how new technology might help solve the case, JonBenet's father's comments, the Elizabeth Holmes sentencing, Harvey Weinstein's LA and NY trials, and more. Plus, Megyn reads your emails in the MK Mailbag segment. Have a question for her? [e-mail] The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKellyTwitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at: https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Friday. It's a big day here. Today happens to be my birthday. Yay, Scorpio. And I'm super excited to be spending it with you and with Dr. Laura. She's coming on one second. Also later today, we're going to be joined by an all-star, all-star Kelly's Court, if it's telling, but there's a pretty significant update in the JonBenet Ramsey case. Also, Elizabeth Holmes is going to be sentenced today. The Harvey Weinstein case has gotten out of control in LA. We'll talk about that among other cases. So I'll bring those to you in just a bit. First, though, we are joined by one of my favorites, Dr. Laura, host of the Dr. Laura program on Sirius XM, which airs right after

this program on Triumph 111. She is the author of 13 bestselling books. And if you just want, I mean, they have withstood the test of time. I have them on audio, the ones that I can get on audio I love. And I just put them on and I, you know, whatever, do my housework or I do my makeup. And it's so fun listening to her, her advice, everything she said, even in 2000, you know, whatever, do my housework or I do my makeup. And it's so fun listening to her, her advice. Everything she said, even in 2000, you could play it today, use it just as much. This life problems continue to recycle is what I've noticed. And her solutions hold. She shares her much needed wisdom with millions of fans every single day.

And you can listen to her for three hours, which I often do. Dr. Laura, welcome back to the show. Okay. Prepare yourself. I'll do my best. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday, wonderful Megan.

Happy birthday to you. Wow. Yay. I think I hit most of those notes. You did. You know, it's not an easy tune to sing. No, actually it isn't. Right? Thank you for that lovely greeting and for doing that live on the air.

It shows your confidence. I'm so delighted that they booked you for today. I feel like I have so many things that I want to go over with you. There's so many things I want to ask you about that are in the news or just bugging me or whatever. All right. This is a weird place to start, but I've been dying. As the person who wrote The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands, The Proper Care and Feeding of Marriages, can we talk about Tom Brady and Giselle? I know you can't diagnose them, but it's weighing on me. We don't know them. We've met them a couple of times and I've seen them. They looked like the perfect picture of happiness to me. You know, of course, they're both beautiful.

They're both super successful. And now the reports are that they've filed for divorce and that she's in Costa Rica where they used to go all the time together with her karate instructor. And they say this marriage has fallen apart because he wouldn't give up his football career. I mean, the guy has six or seven Super Bowl rings and she wanted him to give up his career. I don't know if I believe that. But what do you make of that? Because to me, it just seems like who would let a beautiful marriage fall apart because of football? Nobody would.

And it wasn't most likely, therefore, really a beautiful marriage. so many people in the business, that when there's a husband and wife and they're both hot celebrities, that it becomes business to portray a certain image because that's part of the marketing of them. 100% true. You understand what I'm saying without saying it to them? Yes. That doesn't mean that what you saw was real, but it was a business agreement. Do you think, I mean, I think about this in the same way Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman fell apart after 10 years. They renewed their vows.

And I think within a week he served her with divorce papers. I think on the outside we do see these beautiful people with these quote unquote perfect lives. And we buy it because we're meant to buy it in the same way that the iPhone manipulates us in ways we don't fully understand. So does that industry. And it creates these images that we even smart people who are skeptical wind up believing. And then when it all comes crashing down, we think, huh, so curious. And it's pernicious because we hold ourselves to similar standards that are unattainable. Well, remember, let's see, Sonny Bono and Cher. They had a fabulous television show. They were hysterical together. They were incredible together. And one day I was watching the show and I went, the marriage is over.

How can you tell? It's just a great show. I can feel it. And sure enough, they filed for divorce. And that was a case where, according to Cher, she wanted to go out and be on her own. He sort of discovered her, she said, and mentored her. And they were wonderful together, but she wanted to be her own person. So there are lots of reasons people get together, stay together when they're in the public view. She came to the place where the public view was not enough for her. She wanted her independence. That's what I read that she said. I have no further knowledge than that. So there are a lot of different kinds of situations, but I think a lot of it is for show.

I think that's true. And I think in a more private life, I don't know, you have to make sacrifices for your marriage. You have to make some professional sacrifices for your marriage, which I think people don't think about as much as making sacrifices in their marriage for their professional career. Well, I had a call from a 30-something-year-old male who sounded almost like an AI. And that was his problem. Dealing with feelings, something he wouldn't go near. And he asked me, and his career was everything to him. It was the most important thing in the world, but he wanted to have a relationship. And he wanted to know what quality is first and foremost, if there is a first and foremost. And it's funny what you just said,

because I said to him, both people have to be willing to sacrifice for the happiness of the other. If both are not doing that, I mean, if only one does that, that's to me almost an abusive relationship. But if both are doing that, that's the perfect marriage. But that's the one thing we need to be able to do. Sacrifice. I've heard you talk to people before, and I think you've written about it in your books, about how, okay, if you do it, if you make a sacrifice for your partner, then there's another piece of it, which is not then holding it against them for eternity. You need to do it willingly. Well, then it's not a real sacrifice. It's a manipulation.

Yeah. See, they can look the same, but they're not. Resentment is because the manipulation didn't work. Hmm. Mm-hmm. Like, you're trying to get him to be different. I gave up this for you, and now I'm expecting to get this. It's not the same thing as, I love you and I want you to be happy, so this is what I'm expecting to get this is not the same thing as i love you and i want you to be

happy so this is what i'm giving to you it's a gift we don't get resentful about heartfelt gifts you you've talked about how looking at others because i'm thinking about this and that the way we perceive these quote-unquote perfect marriages this and the way we perceive these quote unquote perfect marriages and the way we perceive these quote unquote perfect people on Instagram, on TikTok. Young women deal with this a lot about how it can lead to a deterioration in confidence. People ask you all the time, how do I be more confident in myself or how do I help my child become more confident? And one of the things I know you say you're not supposed to do is compare yourself to other people, but it's very hard in today's day and age, which is so visual. These images are being pushed on kids and teens, forget kids who aren't really supposed to be on

there, but let's say 22 year olds on Instagram with the filters and the magazines and so on. And like the ubiquitousness of celebrity culture at every turn. And even in one's personal life, you know, they have their Facebook friends and their couple from college. They knew that they've got everything and I don't. So what do you say to the people who are struggling not to take that leap of making a comparison between their own life and somebody else's? Well, I remind them that they're making a comparison about an ongoing video, their own lives, and a snapshot of somebody else's. I remember I got an email last week from a woman who said she was at some lake and she was watching a family that she was related to. She was watching a family. Everybody was fighting, nasty and annoyed and tired and

pissed off and not being nice to each other. And then they took a family picture and put it on Facebook. And she said, snapshot, not reality. So your life is a video. Those things on the net are snapshots. You can't compare because you're not comparing the same thing. Anybody, if I had a very unhappy person, I could still find something in their day that was good and take a snapshot. Nobody would know they were depressed. What about that feeling of envy that creeps up? I mean, in this business, I remember at Fox News, it was, you would see it everywhere. And Roger told me young in my career, early on, he said, other people will try to imitate you, but there will only ever be one you. So you don't have to worry about them. And that was a release for me because that does happen. You know, sometimes you're like you're irritating. But I think people do it as a form of flattery, as a form of envy potentially. But when you are feeling envy, it's a terrible feeling.

Well, it means you've dismissed the value of yourself because it looks like somebody else has more or is better. And there was a talk show host in Los Angeles and he would start his show by saying, somebody would say to him, how are you today? You know, callers tend to do that. So how are you? Better than some, worse than others. That's the truth for everything.

I'm prettier than some, not as pretty as others. That's the truth for everything. I'm prettier than some, not as pretty as others. I'm smarter than some, not as smart as others. That's it. There's a whole spectrum and you're somewhere on the spectrum, which means there are people behind you who are looking at you and going, you know, I'd like to have those legs. Well, I would like to have Tina Turner's legs. There's no question about it. And arms. My arms are pretty good. It's the legs. That's true. I forgot who I was talking to. It's true. It's actually kind of insane how the shape that you're in. I have a confession to make. I have not worked out in two years, Dr. Laura, two years. Oh, honey bun, that's going to catch up on you. I know, because now I'm getting older too. So, and I know you've got to put those deposits in right now. So I don't know.

Okay, Megan, do you have a pencil? Megan, do you have a pencil megan do you have a pencil on you i'm ready to go okay drop it on the floor okay just turn around and drop it on the floor done that's what's going to happen to all your body parts well the that's it that's called gravity. Oh, no. Oh, yeah. It's like I know this intellectually, but it's so hard to force myself up off of the couch. I'm tired all the time. And once you start, you get into a groove and you can keep it rolling. But it's hard to start. I need that motivation to start. Maybe it'll be my 52nd birthday. You don't need motivation. You just need discipline.

I work out a lot and do all this stuff a lot. And I don't sit there and go, oh, goody, goody, goody, goody, goody. I'm going to push weights. What I do is say, 7.30, it's time to do it. So it's discipline. Everybody wants motivation. How about this? Go on one of the apps, which shows you 30 years from now, a whole body. Maybe that'll motivate you to work out, but you know, collagen disappears and gravity takes over and it's just the reality of life. But the

more you work out, the healthier you stay and the better you're going to look, even with gravity. How have you dealt with aging? Have you been fighting it every step of the way? Have you been embracing your age? How do you think about it? Well, I'm going to be 76 in January and I don't look like it. I don't feel like it. I feel like I'm not the age I am. Nonetheless, I look in the mirror and go, shit. I looked a lot better 10 years ago. What the hell? So, but, you know, I'm so active that I don't sit and fret about it as long as i can still uh as they say kick ass in the gym and on the water racing my boat and everything else as long

as i can still do the things that give me purpose in life uh i'll tolerate the fact that uh you know i have smile lines when i'm not smiling i heard you telling a story on your show one day about how you were in an exercise class and you had your legs bent up like over the top of you and sort of seeing the skin sagging down and thinking, whoa, this is not a good had shorts on. I normally used yoga pants. You don't see that when you get in that position that all the skin above your knee crinkles up. So there I am upside down going, what the hell is that? That was my first notion because when you're standing up, it all looks okay. Yeah, that's right. You're more stretched out. I know. I like that. You're right. I have to think about it more as like a discipline. I always used to say, when selecting a mate, you know, when selecting a life partner, you know, how a lot of these

Chinese marriages are arranged, put yourselves in the shoes of the Chinese parent, make a decision that you think is best for you on paper. Don't let it be all heart because some people you can see intellectually are not right for you, or you don't have shared values or you don't, you have, if you're very religious, you marry somebody from another religion, this is going to be a problem. So on. And so this is kind of the same to me, like put yourself in the, in the shoes of your own parent. What would you make you do? I would make me get up earlier and do the damn workout. It can be 30 minutes, can be 20 minutes, or at least a couple times a week. I got to get started. I guess now is as good a time as any.

You make a decision. Like when I'm in the house, I go, okay, I'm going to go down there for an hour and that's it. Just going to do it. It'll be over. And then I can pour a glass of wine. Right. 7.30. So wait, speaking of your it. It'll be over. And then I can pour a glass of wine. Right. 730. So wait, not in the morning. No, that would hurt. Speaking of your home, you're moving. You're, you're,

you're downsizing. As of yesterday, I'm not. Oh, why? What, what happened? Because you've got this amazing, amazing home. Yeah. On the ocean. The buyer at the buyer last at the last moment freaked out i don't i don't so i've decided i'm going to do some of the cosmetic things i've always wanted to do and i'm going to stay here because i have almost 280 degrees of ocean uh Why do I have to downsize? I can still pay my bills. What the hell? Right. And you have to be thinking about, I know you took a tumble and broke your wrist. You have to be thinking about making it safe, right? Because we all do get older and things get like a fall. Actually, Megan, you're walking into it now. I didn't fall because I'm old and fragile and dizzy. I fell because this brand new pair of sneakers caught on some Velcro-like stuff on a stair, so I couldn't move my leg forward, and I just took a nosedive. But, you know, I'm not worried about stairs or any of that, no. My sister-in-law sent me this morning. You ready? How to find out if you're old. Fall down.

Fall down. If people laugh, you're young. If people panic, you're old. Well, having fallen and nobody laughed, but they, you know, I was running down the stairs and my shoe caught and that's that. It wasn't your typical, I fell over. I can stand on one foot and do the rest of this interview the whole time on one you're five and a half years younger than my mom and i i don't think my mom would mind me telling you she is nowhere near this level of physical

capability and she is definitely at the stage where you're like oh my god she could tumble at any second you know she has to use a walker at times. Like it's a more inspiration to work out and get that sort of muscle base going into your seventies, you know, long before you get there. But also, I don't know, be, you know, you do need to make your environment favorable to aging. Hopefully you're going to be with us for another 25 35 more years um i don't know it's i'm thinking about a lot because of her so you could probably stay in your house forever right if you just make sure it's user-friendly next subject she's like what are you saying

this is not going to apply to me i was just like no arms please okay well let's let's talk about this um there's been a lot of buzz in female circles um that i'm on like online about where are all the female leaders right there we're we're back to trump and biden that's probably how it's going to be. Or maybe it's going to be DeSantis and Biden. But there's it's certainly not going to be Kamala Harris versus Kristi Noem. It's not maybe at the number two level, but there's not going to be a female presidential candidate who really has got a chance of winning. And then that expands to where all the female CEOs. Why are so few Fortune 100 and Fortune 500 companies being run by CEOs?

And I used to ask these same questions thinking it was somehow reflective of a societal problem and the more i've thought about it the older i've gotten the more i think it might be reflective of a societal plus in the female category of women understanding those jobs are awful they ruin your life you can your life. You can't have a family. And I feel like women, they intentionally make other choices. This may not be a problem that society has to solve at all. That's correct. I'm so happy to hear you say this because it's absolutely correct. Answer me this. You have a very big, adoring fan base. If you said you wanted to run for some kind of office, they'd support you. Do you really want to live that life?

Hell no. I've been asked, and I said, hell no. Women, by and large, don't want to sacrifice that much. I actually feel bad for men. They have a shorter lifespan. Think about it. They're in war much more than women are, except for civilians if you're in the Ukraine. They have coal mines. I i mean they do the heavy lifting and then we dis men as being some kind of ugly patriarchy what about all the roads are women out there with pitchforks and hammers and nails and and laying tracks down for rail I mean, this country is pretty much glued together by the work of men on their backs. And yet we complain about guys. I think it's terrible that we are disrespecting what men have provided.

And if, you know, women still, we want to be the ones who nurture our kids, except for some strange circumstances. Like, I think it was a woman, I don some strange circumstances. Like, I think it was a woman, I don't remember her name, but I think it was she was the CEO of one of the bubbly drink companies that I don't want to say. And she talked about how her kids ask her, please, to spend time. And you know, she feels bad for them, but this is her career. I was on with Katie Couric one time on the Today Show, and she stunned me by going into, her kids are very supportive of what she does. And I said, you know, the cheering is supposed to go the other way.

So there are women types who are different, but by and large, women want to be taking care of family interspersed with work. Like you take care of family with work. I did. But we didn't make the work force us to sacrifice our kids. So yeah, I don't think women by and large want a lot of these jobs. You don't see them clamoring to be in coal mines. No. Even once my kids are grown, I don't foresee me saying, OK, now I'll do it. I love my free time. I don't want that kind of scrutiny in my life. Even I mean, I have some, of course, but that's next level. I would like to be free once my kids are out of the house to spend days reading books, doing something more leisurely. I really don't want to be immersed in

the toxicity of politics or even a CEO job at that level, which is completely dominating of your waking hours. I don't even know how you can discuss politics without your eyes rolling around in your head. I mean, it's gotten so disgusting and stupid, seriously, that I applaud you for being able with a straight face to do interviews about politics. I don't always have a straight face. That's probably why I'm able to do it. You know, I've maintained my sense of humor. And I don't get too bummed out by any electoral result or too excited by one either i kind of think the system as a whole will correct itself if it goes too far we tend to pull back from in our lifetime americans well in our lifetime you think that'll happen okay you're optimistic dream i i am i am generally optimistic actually i think that's true another

good quality in a news person right because it's such a depressing business otherwise yes true good point yeah um i don't know i i think uh my best quality as a news anchor has sort of been the ability to say huh all right whatever you know whatever. You know, like, I don't really care that much about what you're saying or what you're doing. There's certain things, something that's going to severely hurt my kid, you know, but for the most part, I'm like, you're going to be here today, gone tomorrow.

I'm going to be interviewing somebody just like you in two weeks. You know, like, you're really not that important. I don't know. You're a scream. I just love you. You're just a scream. Oh, thank you. Now, wait, while I you're just a scream oh thank you now wait while i have you i have to thank you for the beautiful i'm trying to show it now bracelet that you made you made

for me it's absolutely gorgeous got a little purple flower a little yellow flower a little orange flower and beautiful silver uh bracelet. And this is not the only one because this is part of a charity that you help troops through, our American veterans. I raise money for the Children of Fallen Patriots Foundation. I'm so glad you like that piece. Fallen Patriots Foundation, they give college scholarships to kids whose parents were killed in combat. And I've been doing that for quite a while. Oh, gosh, somebody sent that. I did that in my kitchen, took that video. Absolutely beautiful.

These are earrings that I made for the holiday boutique. Those are real flowers. How do you do that? How do you make a real flower into a piece of jewelry like this? Well, interestingly enough, my main source of dried and pressed flowers is from a woman in the Ukraine. What? And I connected with her on Etsy. And she has the most beautiful display of flowers flowers and that's where I get them from. And she's, I don't know how to say it correctly, Kiev, the capital, am I saying it right? It used to be Kiev and then they changed it to Kiev without telling us.

Okay. Well, you know, I went into Etsy, looked at the flowers, ordered them. And then when it came, I thought, oh my God, I didn't even realize it was coming from the Ukraine. So I started writing to her. How are you doing? She's sending flowers around the world while she's getting bombed. Wow. Some people are amazing. Does she have any idea who she's corresponding with?

Does she know it's you? No, no. She just knows I'm a frequent flyer. I buy flowers a lot. She could probably really use, instead of your money, a trade deal in advice. She only knew. Yeah. So it's been wonderful. And what I do is I find people who are very, when I take on a new art form, this is resin, UV resin. When I take on a new art form, I immediately try to find out who's really good at it in the country and read their books. If they have books, look at

their tapes, if they have tapes, and actually call them up and ask a million questions. And I have found that people are always so happy to be helpful to somebody who is enjoying their art form. And, you know, I stopped doing fused glass. I just one day I walked in there and went, I'm done. And what's next? And it was the resin. I just love it. It's so it's so pretty to have real flowers.

It's so pretty. And it's it's elegant, too. I'm just showing it again. Hopefully the audience can see this on the YouTube, but it's so elegant. This bracelet that I have here is like a little understated, but still with some pop and some color. And so it's like not boring. It's exciting. It's pretty. Thank you. It's eye catching, but it's not too much either. Cause I don't, I don't go too much in my jewelry. I kind of keep it understated. So it's perfect. No, I noticed that. I absolutely love it. I kind of keep it understated. So it's perfect. No, I noticed that. I absolutely love it.

I noticed that. You're understated in your jewelry. Yeah, I can't go. And I also wore, you know, sleeves for you today because I know you don't like when your news anchors are showing skin. These sleeves are because I love you. Well, you've got nice cleavage there, so okay, we're making up for it. There's really nothing there. Are you kidding?

If I had it, I would show it, however. All right, I'm going to go get an add-in because we work for Sirius and it's important to keep them in business. More with Dr. Laura and her corny joke marathon. And I've got one for her. All right. So she is doing a corny joke day on Wednesday before Thanksgiving. This is perfect timing. You're going to have your corny jokes ready for getting back together with your family.

It is. Okay. Let's see. Yes. Wednesday is perfect timing. You're going to have your corny jokes ready for getting back together with your family. It is, okay, let's see. Yes, Wednesday, 11-23. So let me play a little bit of what happened last year just to give you a taste of what to expect. Here it is. Gobble, gobble, Vanessa. What is your corny joke? Gobble, gobble, Dr. Laura. What did the blonde say to her husband who would not let her get in a word edgewise about how to cook the corn for Thanksgiving? I don't know.

How? Shush. Shush. Shush. Shush. Shush. Shush. I know. You hear me. That is very good that is very good with the laugh track well done all right I've got one for you I've got one for you this is courtesy of my son Yates when does a joke become a dad joke? When it becomes a parent.

Dad. Well, oh, that's good. You see, and they have to be corny. They can't be like normal. Right. They're not supposed to be. That's cute. How old is he?

He's 13. I mean, he's got a lot that have to do with bathroom bathroom issues but i figured yeah yeah yeah we don't do those his other candidate was um a man goes for an interview at a job and they say uh i see here you got fired from your last job at the bank what happened and the man says well, an elderly woman came in and she said, I need to check my balance. So I shoved her over. That's terrible. How about a dumb blonde joke? I used to be more blonde, but now I'm just totally platinum. But anyway, naturally, dumb blonde joke.

What did the blonde say when she looked inside the carton of Cheerios? What? Look, donut eggs. It takes a moment. That's my favorite dumb blonde joke. I like it. I like it a lot. Here's one. This isn't actually, this isn't a corny joke, but I favorite dumb blonde joke. I like it. I like it a lot. Here's one. This isn't actually, this isn't a corny joke, but I do love this joke. And it's rather quick. Old man, he's like 95,

decides to get married to this 25 year old woman. And he's concerned a little. So he goes to the doctor before the wedding night. He says, Hey doc, you know, I'm marrying a 25 year old woman tomorrow. He says, Oh my goodness, sir. Wow. Really? Yes. He says, you, doc, you know, I'm marrying a 25 year old woman tomorrow. He says, oh, my goodness, sir. Wow. Really? Yes. He says, you know, anything I need to know about anything you want to let me know. And the doc says, well, I got to let you know. Sex could be potentially fatal, could be lethal. And in response to which the old man says, well, she dies, she dies. That's good. I like that. I like this idea. Just get people laughing before they go home for the holidays. And this is something you've long been telling people, like a few helpful hints before you go home for the holidays. We're going into the stretch, you know, the six

week stretch where it's just holidays, parties, office gatherings, and so on. And people sort of have to gear up with do's and don'ts for this season to remind themselves how to manage it. Because it can be stressful, too, for people. Yes. Well, the first thing I tell people is have the courage not to go where you really don't want to be. That takes the stress out. That's right up my alley. Oh, I don't want to go to that party because their son molested me when I was six. Well, don't go to that party. Yeah, steer clear. Now, the other one is if you've got a bone to pick with anybody, don't pick the bone when you're there. That's a time to eat, drink, and be merry. And if you can't do that, don't go. So there's a lot of don't go. That would solve a lot of stress.

Yeah. You're not obligated to be anywhere that you don't want to be. You're not. People say they are because they're, I like to tell people to distinguish between relatives and family. There are people who by marriage or genetics are related. That doesn't mean they're warm, loving, reasonable, kind, compassionate people you want to be with. That's family. So what do you do? Because typically, you know, you want to go see your mom, for example, you want to go see your dad, you want to go be with your cousins. There are 364 other days to see them. If you don't want to be there at the same time as other people who are dangerous or drunks or whatever. Let's say, you know, you are going to be with your husband's family. This is not my

situation. So I just want to make sure my mother-in-law doesn't think I'm talking about her. But there are a lot of people who feel like they've got to do it and they've got to spend time with their husband's family or the wife's family. And it can be very stressful for them to manage. They do it for their loved one, but it's a stressful thing to manage. So what do you do? I mean, if you can't get out of it, hold your tongue. There is no not getting out of it. For example, if you're a woman whose husband has family that's very mean to her, or let's just go for mean to her, tell your husband, go, not on Thanksgiving, because that's our family's time, and just see your parents some

other time. There is no got to. People keep thinking there's a got to. No, there isn't. You are in charge of your life. And any spouse that would want you to put yourself in a situation where you're being bullied or harassed, hurt, is not behaving in a very loving way. So I have a whole different way of looking at this. Do not put yourself in a situation to be abused. No. You don't do that for your spouse. You don't do that for any reason at all. No, no, no, no, no, no. You are in charge of yourself. You decide. So that reminds me of another thing I wanted to ask you about friends.

I know you say that you you don't do in your real life what you do on your show. You're not running around just offering advice to people. And on your show, it is solicited advice. But I know you're not sort of running around to cocktail parties saying, well, you made the wrong move there. You know, you shouldn't. Would be fun. I can think it, but I don't say it. Right. But what do you do?

I'm having this this debate right now with some friends. If you have a friend whose behavior you object to, who you would like to weigh in with, you would like to say, I don't think what you're doing is good for you. I don't like the way it makes you act. I want you to make a different choice. And here's why I'm advocating this. I have a group of friends that's saying you should do that. If you have a friend who you want to say that to, you should air it out, let the friend respond. And I've been more in the camp of it's not my business. Like my friend will lead their lives according to how they want to lead their lives. And it's not for me to tell them I think it's wrong and I don't like what

you're doing. I'll just have to decide on my own whether I want to be around this person anymore. And they're more in the camp of no fight for it. Like express your feelings. Let them express theirs. They're making good points. I'm not sure what the answer is. I am. I'm sure that you're right. You're absolutely 100% right. They are 100% wrong. It's not even 99. Oh, wow. This is fascinating. Keep going. Hey, you know who you're talking to. I'm blunt, short, and sweet to the point. You are right because it is none of your business. Your business is how somebody impacts you. Now, the only time I make an exception is when somebody's hurting a kid.

Friend or not, I've been in a store where somebody was, one husband was holding a kid, and it was nine o'clock at night, and the kid's crying, and he slams the kid. And I walked over, and this guy could have squashed me like a bug. And I said, your kid is tired. Not bad. You don't hit a tired kid. So when there's a child involved, I don't keep quiet. But I don't worry about adults making their own stupid choices. That's theirs. And if the choices are so egregious that I believe they cannot be a friend, then that's it. They're not a friend. But I don't intervene in people's lives other than intercepting an adult hurting a kid.

What do you give advice to friends who ask you for it? They don't ask me for advice, interestingly enough, now that you asked me and I'm thinking about it. We discuss the subject. Like this is happening at home and I'm kind of frustrated and tired about it. And we just talk about it like two friends talk about something. But I don't become Dr. Laura to my friends. Never. Never. Cut to the chase. I gave it the office. Okay. Well, this parlies into something else on the advice front. Children. Now, how do we know? Mine are 13, 11, and 9. They are still very much, I in the phase where they need they need my advice they need doug's advice they need us to help develop character and help them figure out how to make

judgments and you know how this whole process work and what are our values as a family but at some point yeah i've heard you say this to people a million times like they have to solve their own problems mommy and daddy can't swoop in and be there for every single one. So where generally is that line? The line is when, as I am certain, because I've known you for a while now, I am certain that your kids know that no matter how dumb they've been to do something really stupid, that they can come to the two of you. So when kids know that you don't have to lecture them, they're going to come to you and say, what should I do? This is what I've done. I know it's bad. How do I get out of it? They're going to come to you and ask for the advice. You're not going to have to dole it out. And that's going to be, you know, as they get closer to 20. So it'll be obvious, like they'll be seeking it out.

Yeah, because they trust you. That's the thing that most parents don't think about. They just want to become over-controlling and micromanaging. But if your kids know that you will not just sit in judgment and go crazy, but you will listen and have a conversation about it, then for the rest of their lives, premarital sex and they're, they, they come and they tell me, not like an accident happened, but they, they, they want to admit that to me and they want help and advice on how to handle that. That's a scary thing to admit. Or what if they get in trouble for, I don't know, God forbid, drunk driving, something terrible where it's like, you, you, your instinct would definitely be to offer some judgment, you know, some we need to go over the family values again.

But you also want to be make them comfortable coming to you, especially in those potentially dangerous situations. OK, well, the sex talk should be happening by the time they're five. And you go through the pros and cons of, gosh, sex really feels good. However, when it doesn't have a context of love, commitment, trust, you know, it's going to be painful at some point. So they're getting the philosophical points at a very young age and you just keep driving with it. Now, eventually they will make a choice and I've had young women call and they decided to do it anyway and then realized it didn't add anything wonderful to their lives. And so then they had to discuss feeling guilty and shamed

and all of that. And I try to erase that part. And you had a wonderful revelation of a value that's going to benefit you for the rest of your life and make you understand that certain things are special. I remember I was in New York City one time. Frankly, I'm always stunned when somebody walks up and knows who I am. I'm always surprised. I don't know why I have that problem. But she ran up to me and she was not happy. And she said, I don't like your position on, you know, shacking up. You know, it's a commitment. You know, no, it's not. And so instead of going into a whole lecture about that, I said, okay, imagine this. You have this beautiful wedding and you're wearing a

beautiful white dress and you actually earned it. And after the party and all the wonderful loving things people say, you go to the place you're going to stay and he picks you up, holds you in his arms. And for the first time, there's something special about you having combined lives. And he carries you over the threshold, which is a promise of always taking care of you and loving you and being there for you. And I said, you really want to miss that? And I kept walking. So the way I try to handle these things is make them reflect on what they give up to say, I can do that. It doesn't matter. I try to show them what they would miss. I like that. This is like when I stole from Kmart when I was 12 and my best friend Kelly McGinnis and I got dragged down there by my dad. plastics, big star earrings back to the man in the brown leisure suit, who then walked us through exactly what would happen if we had gotten caught and how he sees it happen all the time to young

girls and put the fear of God into both of us. And of course, there was no stealing ever again. I mean, I got it because he didn't just tell us we were bad people. He just walked us through exactly what would have happened if we'd been caught. It was terrifying. Well, children in particular don't think past the moment's urge. So if you give them scenarios like he gave to you, then when that moment of an urge happens, the bigger picture suddenly comes into view also. I don't think she'll mind me telling you this, but last time my friend Melissa Francis called in, remember when you were on? Oh, yes. I read her book.

Oh, that's nice. Oh, that's awesome. She's going to love that. Well, she's got three great kids, and the youngest is a little girl. And we were talking about this subject in life lessons with kids. And apparently her daughter was in class. She's six or seven. And there was a little girl who had made a ghost around a pencil.

And all the little kids thought it was really cool. And they wanted to learn how to do that. But class was ending, school was ending. So the teacher said, you're going to have to make it at home. It's time to go home now. And Melissa's daughter kind of inched to the back of the class and sidled up to this girl and had her own pencil and said, show me how to do it. And within moments was almost done with it. And the teacher turned to her and said, Gemma, I said, you can only make this at home. It's time to go. And she looked at the teacher and said, I did make this at home. Oh, really? Yeah.

You went to home and riced back to class right it's amazing it's so great like the little kids they don't realize how obvious the lies are yeah that's that's funny i loved it because melissa was telling me the leader she sat with her and she's like what made you lie you know and the daughter was like i was scared i was going to get in trouble and you know she explained to her that's a natural instinct but it's so much better to just make a mistake and then own it than to compound it by then lying um anyway i love that because it's like yes for sure i did okay all right i believe every word of it all right so now we're going to be getting a whole lot more of you next week. I will be off the weekend after Thanksgiving. You will be getting ready for the Dr. Laura 48-hour marathon on SiriusXM.

Here's just a little bit of Dr. Laura getting ready for her 48-hour marathon. Would you look at this? Look at this. She's cracking eggs. She's drinking raw eggs like Rocky. Protein powder. Push-ups. Collapse. Jump rope.

Oh my God, you look amazing. She's punching the punching bag. All right. Amazing. So you're not physically going to be in the studio, but you will be on 48 Hours the weekend after. Right. Right. Good. So people can listen to Dr. Laura. We put the calls together. I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, no, go ahead.

In groups of subjects like the right thing to do, how to deal with your in-laws, whatever it is, sex. And so we put a whole bunch together for an hour and then we have all these different hours and some of the most pissy of calls. I like this because I know that you're not a fan of rushing out on Black Friday to do all the shopping. Spend time with your family, put on a fire and listen to some Dr. Laura. You'll be the better person for it and do the right thing, she says. Great to see you. Great to talk to you.

Thanks for coming on. Oh, it's my pleasure. You're going to return the favor and come on mine again? Any time. It would be my honor. You got it. My people will talk to your people.

It's done. Happy Thanksgiving. Happy Thanksgiving. Hugs to your family. Thank you. Oh, yay. That was great. That's what I needed. Thank you. Oh, yay. That was great. That's what I needed on my birthday.

Okay. Don't forget, folks, you can find The Megyn Kelly Show live on Sirius XM Triumph Channel 111. It's a very nice neighborhood. Dr. Laura's here and Glenn Beck is here and Dave Ramsey's here. We're on every weekday noon east right before Dr. Laura and the full video show and clips by subscribing to our YouTube channel, youtube.com slash Megyn Kelly. Audio podcasts also available wherever you get your podcasts for free. And I'll be sending you my American News Minute later today. Go sign up at megynkelly.com.

Today, we have a Kelly's Court all-star panel. I can't believe the amount of legal brainpower about to join this set. Marsha Clark is a lawyer and New York Times bestselling author. She is known for being the lead prosecutor in the case of the people versus OJ Simpson. Of course, a double murder case that would become infamous in its reach. Also with me, Mark Garagos. Mark is a trial lawyer and managing partner of Garagos & Garagos. His list of some high-profile clients include people like Michael Jackson, Scott Peterson. We could go on. Marcia and Mark, welcome to Kelly's Court.

Hi, Megan. Hey. Happy birthday. Thank you. This is the greatest gift. I love today's show. I was just telling Marcia that it's been years since I've seen her. Way too long. Thank you. This is the greatest gift. I love today's show. I was just telling Marsha that it's been years since I've seen her, way too long,

and we do go way back. So thank you. This was a great birthday gift that you're giving back. Yeah, that you're giving to us. We appreciate it. It's so nice to see Mark again. It was like, woohoo! Yeah, because you're both California litigators. I mean, I hadn't actually thought about it, But yeah, you would know each other. Well, Marcia, I think for people to say best known as OJ's prosecutor, I get it. But Marcia was, you know, let's not, she blushed, but she was one of the most kick-ass prosecutors in that criminal courts building when I was coming up and was legendary, actually. You never wanted her on your case. I will tell you that. Yeah, well, wasn't it, Bardo?

And likewise, I was very gifted not to have to be with you. Oh, that's nice. No, we talked about when Marsha came on not long ago, we did a profile on her and some of her background, and she was a crusher as a prosecutor. And we dissected in great detail what happened in the OJ case. But in any event, I'm so like, it's perfect to have the two of you here today, because it just so happens that the cases that we have on today's docket, for the most part, involve these very

famous, not exactly celebrity trials, but the people became kind of like celebrities or infamous. And I should tell the audience right now, as we go into Kelly's court, we are awaiting sentencing. It should be happening right now. Any second in the Elizabeth Holmes trial. This judge has had the case for a year to contemplate the jury's verdict. And we expect a ruling any second now to find out that in the range of possibilities include her attorneys are asking for no more than 18 months in prison. This is the woman who started Theranos with a blood prick on the finger. It turned out to be a fraud. They want 18 months. The prosecution wants 15 years. And an independent probation officer has recommended nine years. And those are pretty hefty numbers.

We'll see. OK, so we'll get back to that when we have news. Let's start with Casey Anthony. I got to tell you, I can't believe that they're doing this, that NBC is doing this. It's Peacock, their online property. This is toxic. This is like, speaking of OJ, Marsha, this is like, if I did it, his his stupid book where he purported to reveal if he did it, how he would have done this double murder. This is her. I haven't read it, but I've seen the Daily Mail

reports on and the People magazine reports on it. It just seems like a bunch of new lies about why she didn't do it and somebody else responsible. Yes, it's a bunch of new lies plus old lies, and none of them make any sense. There's this preposterous setup where she talks about she was asleep with her, with little Kaylee in bed, taking a nap, and then she wakes up to find that Kaylee is gone, and then her father comes in holding Kaylee, who is soaking wet and unconscious, and tells her, don't worry, she was in the pool and then I'll take care of this. And what? Are you what? And she says, okay, I was just watching. I thought, okay, he'll take care of this. Really? That's your response to seeing your baby in his arms,

obviously near comatose? I don't know about you, Megan. Oh, I think I do know about you. If you saw somebody holding your baby, I don't care who it was in that situation, you'd be on your feet and calling 911. I mean, so, you know, and then it folds out from there and one thing after another. And of course, the stuff that was documented on camera in her interactions with the police, lying repeatedly about Zannie the nanny and whether she was at work that day and then pretending she had a job when she didn't have a job that she had to stop midway through their interview as she's trying to walk them to her office which she does not have so I mean it's just pathological yeah but so what the one problem is you give Jose credit he got an

acquittal in that case against all odds. Look at you, the defense lawyer. Mark, the audience should know. We talk to Mark. He's like, Scott Peterson didn't do it. And Michael Jackson didn't do it. I can read into my client's eyes. They're like, okay, Marsh and I, more prosecutors,

were like, hmm. You know, when you live with them, I mean, look, there have been clients that I've had that I've defended who I will candidly admit, not publicly, that I know they're good for it. I mean, you have little or no doubt because their felony is stupid. But there are other clients who, and Scott is one of them, I'm telling you, I have never for a moment thought since that trial that he was guilty. That's why it's somewhat comforting that they're going to do a, that they've already reversed the death penalty and that they have coming up. And I believe the court is going to announce it from open court sometime in the next 60 days on the order to show cause on the guilt phase too.

I mean, if that's a retrial, it will be the retrial of this century. Can you believe the fact goes back to trial again? I can't even imagine. No. Would you think you'd be trial counsel? I don't think I would. It's almost been 20 years. I may have my daughter do it, but let her try the case.

She was there, and I think eight years old at the time watching. Now she's practicing in New York, but she's licensed here. So maybe I'll have her do it. Well, if we get that ruling, that'll definitely be on the docket of Kelly's firm. We'll take it up. So she seems to be contending in this interview. Again, this is secondhand reporting. I haven't seen it yet myself. But she seems to be claiming, as you point out, Marsha, that she that the father came to her with the baby wet from the pool, maybe in distress from having drowned or almost drowned. And that he he basically said to Casey Anthony, OK, you leave, you know, I'll take care of it. So she left and that he didn't let her say anything about it. And he instruct he commanded her say anything about it. And he instructed, he commanded her

to act normal. This is her retroactive explanation, I think, for all the dancing at the bars while this woman knew her daughter was dead. And this is why every person in America hates her guts. We think she killed her kid and then she danced on stage at like sexy mama contests and had absolutely no remorse. So now she's trying to say, I did it because my dad made me. And she completely demonizes this father who Jose Baez, without foundation, accused of being the killer in his opening statement and also made an allegation about sexual assault that was never sustained. And she renews that here against him and her brother, both of whom have absolutely denied these outrageous slanders. Yeah. And she never took a stand. So realize that we're talking about statements she's making that are uncross-examined and never challenged in real

time. So they do say that she was not given any editorial power in terms of this Peacock special. Fine, that's good. That's at a minimum, you shouldn't do that. But that doesn't mean that her statements are being challenged in the manner, for example, Mark Garagos would challenge them in court, or I would. You know, there's no substitute for the machine of cross-examination, and she's never been cross-examined. So, you know, there's no substitute for the machine of cross-examination. She's never been cross-examined. So, you know, imagine how she would hold up. Megan, you can shred her. And it only stands up for even one second for the moments that she's speaking until you can stop and think about what she's saying.

And then it falls apart immediately. And, you know, we've proven seven ways from Sunday how guilty she really is. So I'm not sure why Peacock went for this, honestly. Maybe it'll show something new. I've not seen it myself, I must say. I have read Jeff. Oh, my goodness. I just blanked on Jeff's last name.

The prosecutor who handled her case. Jeff? I don't have it. Oh, man. I'll get there. I hate when this happens to Mark. Help me. But he wrote, too. So, I mean, when you put it all together, and then we

reinvestigated the case for the show I did for A&E, Marcia Clark Investigates, and it was revelatory. We came up with even more evidence against her if you can imagine that so it's just i want to ask you about that i want i want you to tell us about it but can i ask you mark so just to follow up on where we were on the the new revelations that she allegedly says in this piece she claims uh again as we pointed out um her dad george anthony was

allegedly standing there holding little kaylee he was standing there with her she was soaking wet he handed her to me she said it was my fault that i caused it but he didn't rush to call 9-1-1 he wasn't trying to resuscitate her i collapsed with her in my arms she was heavy and she was cold he takes her from me he immediately softens his tone and says it's going to be okay i wanted to believe him he took her from me and he went away then she went to stay with her boyfriend, Tony Lazaro, but didn't tell anyone what happened. She says she wasn't under the impression that Kaylee was dead. She was under the impression that her child was alive. Oh, really? That was just an impression you didn't think it was important to follow up on? My father kept telling me she was okay. I had to keep following his instructions. He told me what to do.

I tried to act as normal as I could. And she goes on to say this. When she was young, she claimed, he would put a pillow over my face and smother me to knock me out. That happened several times. I'm sure there were times when I was incapacitated as a child where my body was limp and lifeless. Really? Okay. So he knew just how much to smother you to where you'd come back and not actually die. He was a master suffocator, your dad. I mean,

this relates to the research you did on your show, Martha, about what was on March about what was on her computer, because some of that one of the things that was Googled on her computer was something like suffocation and chloroform and how to use it. And all these damning terms for somebody who has a dead child coming in their family. So tell us what you found. Wait, so Cindy, in the early searches that were done by the police when the case first broke, and people were not nearly as savvy, I want to say, in terms of being able to search histories and not as savvy about computer lore. So the initial search for chloroform, they touted to be eight times that she searched for that, turned out to be once. And then Cindy, the mother, took responsibility for that. She's a nurse. Okay, fine. However, then what they didn't discover is that if they had used both search engines, both Mozilla and Firefox and something else, I can't remember which ones, but there were two. They only searched one.

And when it was two that were searched later after the trial was over, it was discovered that she had done searches for foolproof suffocation and other related topics that at a time when only she was in the house. Now, Jose Baez wrote about those. His computer expert did come up with that information. Of course, he doesn't have to turn it over to the prosecution. He claimed that the timing of those searches for foolproof suffocation occurred, were done by George, the father, as a means of suicide. What we determined, actually, there was a glitch in the software. The true time was at a point when George was at work and when Casey Anthony was the only

one in the house. So she did all those searches for foolproof suffocation. On top of that, it was also shown that after her first interview with police, when they first started accusing her, they dropped her back at home and immediately that history, that search history is deleted at, again, a point in time when she's home alone. And who else would even have known to delete that search history except the person who conducted that search history? So, you know, I mean, all of these things just add up. And these are not squishy, eyewitness kind of my opinion. She looked like this or she acted like that. This is hard fact.

These are data searches that she made and she alone made and then deleted so i mean but most of that stuff didn't come into trial didn't no the interesting thing that i always find is uh the she didn't or he didn't act right evidence. Marsha calls it squishy. It drives me crazy because I don't know that there's ever a playbook of how anybody's supposed to act when you're accused of some heinous crime. But I will agree with you that data and searches can be damning. I mean, I've sat in courtrooms where you have to try to explain why a search was done at a certain time. And it's amazing to me. I don't know if Marcia's got the same experience, but it's always stunning

at how little the so-called experts know about what they're doing in this area. I mean, you just ask them a couple of questions and it becomes apparent that they haven't thought of or done the apparent search, and they don't know. The timing is incredible because I've asked countless times to witnesses on the stand, what time did this take place? And they can't really answer. They kind of come up with something. They may be a timestamp, but they don't know if it actually happened at that time. And those kinds of things, I think, are vital. As Marcia says, you can make sure she makes a good case for stuff that they never found or that they didn't know what they had at the time.

I really wonder whether people are going to watch this, because in the same way that there was backlash against O.J., when they had to pull that book, That book was pulled by Judith Regan because there was so much outcry. I remember because I was at Fox at the time and it was being published by Harper owned by the Murdochs. I wonder what's going to happen because there's already been backlash to Peacock. It's NBC for doing this. I'll give you a look at the trailer and then I would like to ask you if you think, as I know, Nancy Grace has said she refused to participate in this documentary because she 100 percent believes this woman killed her child and she's not going to try to sanitize any of it. But here's a look at the trailer. 911, what's your emergency? My daughter's been missing for the last 31 days.

It's happening. The most closely watched case, certainly since O.J. Simpson. As to the charge of first-degree murder, not guilty. Casey's never told her story. Did she murder her daughter? Casey interview, Mark Brown? What do you think my question is gonna be? Why did I wait 31 days to call 911? Did you do everything in your power

to protect your daughter the public thought that casey didn't want to be a mother the lies make you think that she did murder this child it's not the casey that i knew she loved that child i lied but no one asked why. Oh, my God. I'm sorry. But let me tell you something. We did some Casey Anthony stories over the course of my time at NBC and Fox. And can I tell you, because people love crime, as you guys know, they love crime stories. They love crime podcasts. This case, numbers would fall every time you touched it. People are angry. And I remember we joked behind the scene. We're like, OK, so murderer gets convicted. The numbers go up. People want to watch that. Murderer gets away with it. People are like, hell no, especially if the victim is a little girl, a little child. So I don't know. What do you guys think?

Yeah, I didn't know about the numbers. I think that's actually encouraging. I'm happy to hear, particularly about Casey Anthony. I am. You know, it's enough. We heard the trial. We heard all the commentary. We know what her story is.

It didn't get any better. It gets worse, in my opinion. It gets much less believable. So that people would say, enough of your pathological lying. I don't know why you're getting a platform for this. I actually don't know why she's getting a platform for this. And it would be, to me, good news if people just didn't tune in. What do you think, Mark?

You guys are a lot more optimistic about human nature than I am. My guess is that it's going to do very well. Well, I don't know. I mean, I admit the trailer looks good. But I think- I agree. It draws you in. So it's a compelling story.

I mean, any way you look at it, it's a compelling story. Just listening to Marcia rattle off facts that weren't in the trial is compelling. Why wouldn't somebody want to hear that? Marcia should have some experience on that. Did A&E do well with yours on the numbers, or do you not know? No, pretty well. Pretty well. But I have to say, it was an entire series based on, we're going to take another look at these big cases. So it was, you know, it was promising that. It's a different story when you have the defendant just amplifying the same stuff, I'm going to be nice, that she said before that you know. Now, I'm not saying, Mark,

that you're wrong. I think you may be right, that, you know, it's going to do very well, and people out of curiosity can't resist. I'm just hopeful that they wouldn't be. But, you know, I'm probably doomed to disappointment. Well, I can't turn on Netflix and not see Dahmer doing apparently number one constantly. And I suppose maybe fitting in with Megan that he was convicted or apprehended and that's that people are fascinated with it. Maybe an acquittal does not do you any good in the court of public opinion. I'm not like I have no problem with a journalist interviewing somebody who's gotten away with murder. I really don't like that's it's kind of part of what we do.

But I do. I do hope it doesn't do very well. I hope the American public says we don't need to hear more of her lies. Like we've she's gotten her lies out for years now through her attorneys and others. We know that she's trying to blame it on her dad. Nothing makes sense in blaming it on the dad. Nothing about her behavior makes sense. And now she's trying to extrapolate into, oh, he abused me for years when I was when

I was young and therefore he had total control over me. And he was such a liar. He made me into a pathological liar. So all that stuff, taking the people on the wild goose chase through Universal Studios, through this apartment complex looking for a nanny who didn't exist. That was all just my pathology that was passed down from my father. Oh, tell it to Oprah. Okay, let's move on. One second, you make a very, you raise a really important point that I don't think should get lost. And 100%, I agree with you. The journalist has the right, in fact, the duty to report. And if a defendant who has a celebrated case like this wants to make a statement, the right to have that kind of thing put out, you know, to present it and to interview her. Yes, absolutely. He has the right to do that or she has the right to do that.

It's a question of we're talking about that. That's separate from whether you should watch this kind of thing. You know, you have a right to make that choice. That's the choice we're talking about. Please choose not to. It's different than saying, shut this down and don't let it out.

It should be let out. Yep, I agree. I totally agree. And I actually will not watch it. I have no interest in even reading i don't know if you guys felt the same but even reading her stupid lies my blood was starting to boil like this is such this is an absurd defense and i have to be honest i wasn't too impressed by that reporter doing the questioning in that in that tease in that trailer

and even her description of right i don't her description of the show makes it sound like she's in casey's camp i mean i could be misreading it but she makes it sound like oh you're gonna look at her in a brand new way i'm like i doubt it i have absolutely no doubt i will not be looking at her in a new um okay let's move on to john bonnet because this one's actually fascinating what are they doing they're they're now they're there. It's like a new unit, like a cold case unit, the cold case review team that is now going to be taking on this case. And they're going to speaking be speaking with private DNA labs. The Boulder Police Department is going to consult on this. So all three of these, the cold case review team, the Boulder Police, and Private DNA Labs taking a fresh look at the JonBenet Ramsey case. Why, Mark? Well, because I think that clearly the advancements in DNA that have happened since this occurred, it's worth another look. I don't see any reason in the world not to. I mean, it's another case that captivated America, clearly. And this

one, there's been so much misinformation surrounding it and accusations surrounding it that you may find something this time around. I've seen some startling things in the DNA field in the last couple of years. So it would not surprise me in the least if they found something that they hadn't been able to scientifically deal with before. This case, Marsha, for our viewers, just a refresher, happened in 1996. This little girl, obviously very beautiful, was a pageant queen. The parents woke up. Was it actually Christmas morning? It was right around Christmas, December 26th, my team is telling me, and couldn't find JonBenet. So they look all with the parents. They searched the house, didn't find anything. And then the police said, why don't you to the dad take a closer look, see if anything looks out of order in the house. And he found JonBenet downstairs dead on a blanket in like long johns. And she it did appear that there was evidence, some evidence of sexual assault, though no semen was found.

So that's relevant on the DNA front. But she had been strangled by a garrote, right, which I think is just any sort of rope or strangulation device. And that in particular, Marsha, I think is what they're looking at now for potential DNA testing. Oh, my God, it's almost 30 years now since that case happened. I mean, think of what's happened in the DNA field. Right. So now we have touch DNA, which is back in my day, you basically had to have huge droplets of blood that contained high quality DNA. And the only form of testing was restriction fragment late polymorphism, affectionately known as RFLP,

which no one uses anymore. The testing now is all PCR-based polymerase chain reaction, which means that they amplify tiny, tiny amounts of DNA in order to produce a result. And the fears that they had raised before about that form of testing causing contamination or amplifying contamination have now been pretty much laid to rest. And so you can now, it's been advanced to the point where they can literally lift enough DNA if you touch a surface. Not always, but if you touch a surface, it's possible to find enough DNA to test. And that means that with the sensitivity of the DNA testing today, they may come up with something better, they may come up with something

better and they may come up with results that they couldn't come up with before. However, the fear I have is that the amounts of DNA that they have are so small, they will get consumed in the testing and you will not be able to go back and test when we have even better DNA methods of analysis, which we certainly will, because they keep advancing like every five seconds, it feels like they really are, the field is burgeoning. So, you know, there's a danger in going after these, whatever samples they have right now with the tools we have today, knowing that we may have better ones tomorrow. So I hope that they're judicious about this. I'm glad they're retesting. There have been so many stories circulating about this case that it would be lovely. It would be a relief to finally it to this cold case review group. I think he just wanted to work with private DNA labs. He doesn't think that the state has done a good job investigating this case

and he doesn't trust them to take it from here. I mean, here we are 25 years later, they haven't solved it. So I get that too. He basically said, this sounds like more of the same. That's not what we need. It's a good effort by their PR department. That's what's happening here. I don't disagree with him. I mean, he was savage and unfairly so during the entire thing. I mean, first of all, finding your daughter has got to be the most unimaginable event. And then have being accused and then watching your wife, her mother, kind of die from the accusations and the heartache and in a slow moving car wreck of an investigation. I mean, for those who aren't familiar with it, I mean, the investigation itself was bungled in so many different ways and

so many different people were playing politics with it that I can imagine that the father is angry or at least very suspicious of the motivations at this point. You remember? So, yeah, Patsy Ramsey died after 10 years. JonBenet was killed in 96. She died 10 years later, the mom. And then he, for a while was dating beth holloway remember that natalie holloway's mom it was like a crazy it was a crazy cable news event because it was like wait a minute greta van susten show is like going crazy it was like all of her biggest stories

coming together at once um they did find dna back at the time. Well, not at the time, but in 2008, a new DNA testing technology had been developed and that allowed them to test dead skin cells. Like you said, Marsha, I think this is touch DNA on objects at crime scenes and they tested it and they came back on a pajama legging with a positive for at least one unknown male's DNA, possibly even two. It was after that that the DA wrote a letter to John Ramsey stating that her office is not considered him or his wife, Patsy, or anyone in their immediate family to be under suspicion at all anymore for the death of John Bonnet. And so now they're looking at, like I say,

maybe there was that touch DNA on the garagearrotte, but we don't know. Maybe there wasn't. Maybe the guy was wearing gloves. You know, and on the other hand, though, maybe some guy did leave DNA and maybe that guy's in the system now where he wasn't in 2008. Which, by the way, happens with great frequency as well. That's not very rare. And remember, as an interlude here at one point,

there was also the man who was brought, extradited from overseas after he confessed to this. And for a while, the rumors were rampant that they'd finally solved it. And it turned out he was just nuts. He was a nut. He was Carr. Wasn Wasn't that his name? John Carr or something? I remember that, Mark. Yeah, that was that one. And it was really funny when that came out and he surfaced. I thought, this is a crank. This is one of those cases frequently.

And they bought it. They bought it. That's called desperation. The thing that worries me about the DNA analysis in this case, the evidentiary issues, is that it was such a badly handled crime scene. Imagine that the police go into search and never go to the basement. And that's why the father wound up finding her body, is because they didn't even bother to go to the basement to search. And then they start to remove things from her body, the garage, et cetera. And they're moving things around. A blanket is wrapped around at one point. I mean, it's just it's a mess. I can imagine that even if they do finally zero in on a suspect, it's going to be very hard to convict given the way it was handled. So, you know, it's just this case. I mean, the fact that it hasn't been solved is an embarrassment. And now there's this other guy. This is I hadn't heard this, but there's another dad in the neighborhood whose daughter was attacked and sexually assaulted less than two miles from the

Ramsey home the very next year. His daughter was 12. And he's saying that he went to the police and said that these things may be connected. Here's what happened and that the police blew him off and that the Boulder police have decided not to comment on that one night the mother had tucked the little girl in. I think the dad was out of town or something, but the mother had tucked the little girl in. The mother went back to her room. The mother heard some sort of a scuffle and went back to the daughter's room to find this man in there, this intruder. And he had sexually assaulted the daughter and he jumped out the window and ran away. And she could remember his description. He was never caught, however. A shadowy figure. A lot of similarities between these two cases.

And given the proximity between the two homes and so on, it's, I don't know. I mean, to me, that makes some sense. I don't know about the $118,000 ransom note. That was always very suspicious. But what do you glean from all that? That they dropped the ball or that this is just another person trying to get in the news? What do you think? little out of the normal loop, normal if there's such a thing, of a kind of attack that this other person is describing. So there are some kind of glaring inconsistencies too. That said, look at it. Talk to them. What I found remarkable in that story is that they didn't even try for a composite

sketch with the mother who did get a glimpse. I mean, pay attention to it at least. And then if you must distinguish it and say, really, there is no connection, pay attention to it at least. And then if you must distinguish it and say, really, there is no connection, fine. But it doesn't appear from what I've read, and it could very well be that I'm just not informed enough. But it doesn't appear that they really gave it enough attention and he gave it a pretty short trip. Yeah. The dad is saying, the dad of the other girl is saying, they were completely uninterested in this. They didn't care about my daughter's case. They didn't even really seem to care about the JonBenet Ramsey case.

I would contact them regularly asking if they'd looked into this or that. And they just lied to me. We asked to see some mugshots of sex offenders in the area to see if my wife or my daughter could recognize somebody. We were told that wouldn't be any good. Asked them to send someone over to make a composite sketch. Nope, they refused. Even the Denver PD offered to help the Boulder PD, but they said

they had it covered. They knew what they were doing, but they would not hear anything about this being linked to John Bonnet. The level of incompetence was pretty impressive. Again, the spokesperson for Boulder PD declines to comment on the claims of disinterest. Wow. Well, let's hope they do it right with these private DNA labs. I agree that that's if they're going to do anything, they can't waste it. They have to have the best of the best of the best. Even if they can't prosecute at this point, it would just be good for the country and for the family to have an answer. All right, we're going to check in, see if we have an answer out in the Elizabeth Holmes trial on recommended center on the actual sentence. And we're going to talk about

the latest in Harvey Weinstein and the white sign language interpreter being fired from the Lion King because of his skin color. Stay tuned. Just getting updates from the people who are inside the courtroom with Elizabeth Holmes. This one is from an NBC reporter, I believe, saying we're now inside the courtroom. Elizabeth Holmes and several of her family members are here. It's more crowded than I've ever seen. Prosecuting attorney claims Elizabeth Holmes at one point. Again, this is the one who wants her to have a 15 year sentence. At one point wrote, quote, they don't put attractive people like me in jail.

End quote. That got some people shifting in their seats. Mark Geragos, I would venture to guess you disagree with that conclusion. They do indeed. They do indeed. And I do not think the prosecutors are going to get their way. I don't think this judge is going to hammer her and give her 15 years. I suspect it'll come, it won't be double digits, but it's going to be a substantial amount of time. What do you think, Marcia? Again, just to remind the audience, the prosecution wants 15, she wants 18 months, and this independent probation officer recommended nine years. Yeah, and I think probably nine or 10 is where it's going to land. That said, I have to tell you,

what Elizabeth Holmes did, if you read the book, and I highly recommend that you do, it's called Bad Blood by John Carey, and it's very well written and very well researched. She's a very dangerous person who did horrible things. And she knowingly misrepresented this system that she had of testing that she represented could create multiple test results with one tiny prick of blood. And for the people who need constant testing, this was a huge life-changing thing that really would have been a quality of life game changer for them. Very important. And they were misled to their substantial detriment by her when she knew her system did not work, when she knew it was all fake, when she was representing results that never occurred. And the book really does expose all of that. And it went on for a period of time. This was not oops once or twice.

This went on for quite a period of time, even after results were shown to her that it was made very clear to her what you're doing to these people. And some of these are cancer patients, for God's sake, continue to do this and to perpetrate the lie. So I would be in favor of her getting the maximum, honestly, but I do not think that she will. I think they will kind of, as Mark said, they'll find kind of a middle ground here. Carrie, you know, Carrie is in there, Wall Street Journal reporter who broke this Theranos scandal No fewer than nine members of Elizabeth Holmes's $30 million defense team are here for this. My goodness, keep going. was. And I thought part of the reason that she had at least a shot at a defense was that she did not cash out. She didn't sell at the height of when she could have. And she had quite accomplished people on both on her board and as advisors. And I thought that that was a telling, you know, this wasn't a pump and dump style fraud that she apparently at some point had fervently believed in what she was doing. And so I thought that that might have given her the ability to successfully defend this.

And who knows? I mean, there have been some post-trial disclosures, and this judge ordered a evidentiary hearing surrounding that. She may have a better shot on appeal than most federal criminal defendants do. Let me just say, Mark, that's a good cover. That's a very good point for the defense, of course, you make it. But to me, I think that she's smarter than that. She had people around her that were smarter than that than to do the pump and dump, which makes it so obvious you can't. There's no defense left then. So she did kind of have a shred of a blanket cover. But I do not think ultimately it shows that she did believe in her process and her system. I think that she just knew better than to make it that obvious that she knew it wasn't working. They do put attractive people in jail. I mean, Scott Peterson is attractive of all of his terrible faults, like being a sociopathic murderer.

Not being attractive isn't on the list. Sorry, Mark. But by the way, she's really not all that. It's your birthday. I'm not going to push back hard today. Okay. Okay. They know they're with her on my side.

All right. Harvey Weinstein. I don't want to spend too much time on this lech. I mean, it's just but it's interesting because his New York appeal is being heard and that could go his way. So the L.A. trial does matter. It does matter. And of there are at least four women now accusing him of sexual assault or rape, including most notably the wife of Gavin Newsom, the governor of California, who has taken a stand and said she was sexually assaulted by this guy. run. They didn't scream. They didn't hit him while he, you know, they kind of froze and submitted and it was awful and they didn't, they didn't want to be doing it. But the defense is trying to make the most out of the fact that it, you know, it wasn't like, ah, get off of me. You know, these things are, they're complex. They are. And here's another wrinkle that is actually helpful to the defense. And this is the thing I wanted to discuss with you guys, because this the thing that I think the defense goes after a lot, which they should, is that these women movie. These things, you know, it's a quid pro quo. As one of them said when she tried to resist him, said, I don't do the casting couch thing.

OK, so those of us in Los Angeles and I mean, I'm probably everybody in the country by now, but certainly here in Industry Town, we all know that there is a quid pro quo that a lot of men in the past, I don't know about as much now, have gotten away with a lot of assaultive behavior, harassing behavior, because they had the power. The power to give you work, the power to withhold work from you, the power to cast you or never get you cast again. So they hold this power over you and then you're afraid to report. So even though they may have suffered a true rape, they were raped righteously. So they don't behave the way you expect a rape victim to behave because they're afraid to report. And the power is wielded in that manner and was here.

So the defense repeats over and over again. But you never told anyone. But you went back to see him again. You met with him five more times. This sort of thing. I'm wondering, though, because it is being tried in Los Angeles where people know a great deal about this kind of these power dynamics, whether that will influence the jury who will say, you know what? Of course she couldn't report.

She had to keep having a career, earning a living. Even Meryl Streep said he's God. Yeah. Well, you know, it's also interesting. Marcia and I were talking about this before we went on the air. You know, this is being tried in the criminal courts building downtown on the ninth floor across the hallway. They're also in trial. The jury's been out for either two or three days on the Danny Masterson sexual assault case. So you have these two cases that involve allegations of sexual assault that happened many years ago. And that jury in

the Masterson case is probably Friday afternoon, bewitching hour, you'll get a verdict. But they've been out for a couple of days. They've asked a question in that case. One of their first questions I was telling Marcia was they wanted Phil Cohen's closing argument on reasonable doubt chart. I mean, for a criminal defense lawyer, it doesn't get much better than that one. That's the first question out of the box. I laughingly told Marcia, the only thing that beats that is a civil case where the jury asks for a calculator. But that's being tried there. This case is being tried there. And Mark Worksman and Allen, who were trying the case for Harvey, they understand that he's got a real shot,

as you mentioned, of New York. New York's highest court took his conviction, if you will, under review. And I watched the intermediate court oral arguments. I would have bet in real time that they would have reversed it on grounds of bringing in this other acts evidence, what Martian ID called 1101. They call it Molino evidence in New York. But they didn't reverse it on those grounds, but there clearly, clearly were issues in that case. If he gets that reversed in New York and hangs this case here in LA, which if I'm going to prognosticate, I'm going to guess that he gets a hung jury in this case. The several accounts were dismissed already when one of the complaining witnesses would not

testify. And by all accounts in that courtroom, the defense is doing a bang up job of making this out to be transactional encounters and not assaultive behavior. If that happens, Harvey Weinstein could be walking free or wheeling free. I mean, the thought of that guy wandering around society as a free man is absolutely stomach-turning. Whatever you think about, you know, these particular allegations, there have been scores of women who have come forward to say he did this little trick where he masturbated himself on them, or it just suddenly was like, exposing himself and fondling them. And the descriptions of his genitals are too disgusting for me to read even on our

explicitly rated i mean and the the court drawings of them the courtroom drawings of them are just repulsive what happened to his testicles where are they they're not where they're supposed to be they're really implanted in his uh thigh so i mean it's just why why why do you even plant your testicles in your thigh? I'm sorry. It's just like the... He's so gross. These poor women. Anyway, legally, it's trickier than

it is morally, so we'll continue to watch. Alright, we gotta get to this last case, this Lion King case. So the sign language guy, the guy who signs the Lion king on broadway for people who are um struggling to hear or hard of hearing um one is his last name has sued uh alleging race discrimination he's an american sign language interpreter because he clearly got fired it doesn't seem like this was a question he got fired because his skin is white and he has emails saying you need to back out of the show because of the environment. They say that

it's important and necessary that the sign interpreters match the cultural and physical representation on stage. Oh, I got news for you, lady. He's not a lion either. What do you mean? It's to match the physical representation on stage. It's not appropriate, she stated, for a white interpreter to represent black characters for ASL interpreted Broadway shows. They're lions. Can he do the lion? I mean, there are humans in the cast as well, but this is absurd. And he's saying it's race discrimination against him because he has white skin. Is he right, Marsha? You know, this is a tough one for me, believe it or not, because I can see both sides of this one.

You have the cast is black and you have these sign language interpreters who are on stage with them. And so what you want is you want the comparison to be made. You want them to appear to be the same as the characters they're interpreting for. So I understand that you want that appearance. And for example, if he were standing behind a screen where you could see the movements and silhouette, and you didn't see what his skin was, then it would be a different story. But here I can see that you really want these things to line up you want them to look like people in the play this is understandable that said there is another side to this which is this was just for one performance because they have three bipoc sign language

interpreters two of them were unavailable so for this one appearance you know you, they slotted people in that, that ordinarily would not be in the show and would not have been again. So I don't know, was it worth it? I, this, this becomes a little tough, but I do understand wanting to give the people who put their hard-earned money and took their time to go and see the show, to give them the experience that they intend to give. But it's, it presumes that they're not getting it because of his white skin. It's like they're deaf. They're probably just delighted to have this guy up there interpreting it to them in a way that makes it all easy to understand. How is it lawful to fire a guy because of his skin color, Mark?

Well, the interesting thing is if he has, I guess, the emails that say, in this environment, my reaction would be, in this environment, that's the last thing you would want to do. So it's almost like turning it on its head. I understand the point that Marsha makes, that this was a one-off, if you will. And that should have been the end of it. But, you know, people find a lawyer and the lawyer wants to sue. I think he's going to win. I think it's one thing to say

we don't like your hair color, but it's a different thing to say we don't like your skin color. That still remains unlawful, even if you're trying to be sensitive to a group who I guarantee was not offended. Because I guarantee there was nobody

who was offended by the white signer who was potentially going to go out there and do his sign language thing. You guys, what a pleasure. Thank you so much for being here and let's do it again. Thank you. I'd love to. Thanks so much. And again, happy birthday. Have a great one. Happy birthday. Bye, Marsha. Bye, Mark. What a pleasure. All right. We'll be right back with a little bit of the MK mailback. All right. You guys sent me some email at Megan, M-E-G-Y-N, at MeganKelley.com. That's also a place you can sign up for our American News Minute with a shocking update on Strudwick today.

Sign up and you'll see. Go to MeganKelley.com. And we wanted to read some of your feedback to you. It's always fun. Here is one from just yesterday. This is from Cindy. First of all, I want to wish you the happiest of birthdays. Thank you, Cindy. I also love Doug's podcast. It's called Dedicated with Doug Brunt. We featured him on the show yesterday. It's about authors and their books. He has a very soothing voice and sounds like he's a heck of a bartender. You and Doug have now managed to cover my three favorite things, politics, reading and alcohol. Not necessarily in that order. Stephen in Cape Cod writes, you and I share a birthday. Happy birthday, Stephen, along with Mickey Mouse. That's right.

So happy birthday to you and back at you. I listened to your interview with Doug on my way to my third annual CAT scan. I'm three years cancer free. Thank God. Can you bring Doug back and ask him about his upbringing as you do with a lot of your other guests, I can do that. In fact, I happen to know that Doug's got some very interesting news from his latest guest, and we may run that soundbite next week. And perhaps I will pop him up and he will tell you about his upbringing

in Philadelphia. Suburbs of Philadelphia. He's the third of four children and they're all really sweet, just like Doug. In any event, thank you all so much for being with us this week. Next week, we're going to have Clay Travis, and they're all really sweet, just like Doug. In any event, thank you all so much for being with us this week. Next week, we're going to have Clay Travis, Vivek Ramaswamy, deep dive into Alec Baldwin's legal troubles, too. See you then. Have a great weekend.

Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.