The Megyn Kelly Show - Radical Trans Ideology Hurting Kids and Female Athletes, with April Hutchinson, Robby Starbuck, Isabelle Ayala, and Jordan Campbell | Ep. 741

Episode Date: March 7, 2024

Megyn Kelly dives deep into the issue of radical trans ideology in our society today. First, April Hutchinson, record-breaking female powerlifter, joins to talk about the biological man who began taking over her sport, the shocking rules in Canada when it comes to biological males in women's sports, the money women are losing by the "trans" sports revolution, how she was suspended for calling a "biological male" a "biological male" in her sport, the "trans" athlete then harassing and threatening her over social media, the value of free speech and freedom of thought, and more. Then detransitioner Isabelle Ayala and her lawyer Jordan Campbell join to talk about Isabelle's story that led her to begin "transitioning" at the age of 14, the lawsuit she has filed taking action on those who pushed this, the major revelations in the "WPATH Files," who the "medical professionals and activists" in WPATH really are, how they are saying one thing privately and another publicly, their continued push toward "affirmation" despite clear evidence of major complications and consequences that they acknowledge privately, and more. Then Robby Starbuck, filmmaker of "The War on Children," joins to discuss the way radical trans ideology demands lying about reality, how "social emotional learning" has been co-opted now, race essentialism in our schools, how parents can fight back, and more.Hutchinson- https://www.aprilhutchinson.com/Campbell- https://cmppllc.com/Starbuck- https://thewaronchildren.com/ Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKellyTwitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at: https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at noon east. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Today, a deep dive for the full show on the issue of radical transgender ideology in our society right now. Prepare to be disturbed, but pay attention because it's important. Later, we're going to speak with a detransitioner now suing those who aided in her medical transition as a 14-year-old, as a 14-year-old. Plus, a filmmaker out with a must-see new documentary. Elon Musk has been tweeting about it. But we begin with the story of a female athlete who spoke out about biological males in her sport and the fallout since she took that stance has been

absolutely stunning. April Hutchinson is a record-breaking power lifter from Canada, and she joins me now. April, welcome to the show. Good morning. Thank you so much for having me, Megan. It's great to have you. Okay. So talk about just like, how'd you get into powerlifting? Because that's, I think, unusual for, you know, most women. They're thinking like soccer. Powerlifting is, you know, strong. How'd you get into it? Well, I've always been into athletics growing up as a child. I've always kind of dabbled in powerlifting when I was doing MMA, actually, about 10 years ago. But I don't know if a lot of people know this, but I actually

also dealt with alcoholism my whole life, right? I struggled with addiction. So in 2019, I went into rehab. And when I came out, I just started powerlifting the day after as a means to help me with my mental health and my addictions. And that was right before COVID hit. And I basically trained in a garage for two years with no competitions. And when I came out, I went to Worlds that year and Nationals. So and I'm still, well, I'm not competing now. But yeah, I've just been competing for the last five years with Team Canada.

How did you do that? But yeah, I've just been competing for the last five years with Team Canada. How did you do that? I mean, were you just, how did you even know what to lift, how to build your body, how to be safe about it, all that stuff? Well, I mean, I had a coach. I mean, I was going to a gym and I actually found a powerlifting coach that assisted me. But I mean, did I really know what I was doing in the beginning? Not really. Cause I was literally training in a garage by myself. Um, and there was no competitions during COVID. Right. So I literally would just do the movements, you know, get as

strong as I could. I really had no idea how strong I was until I came out and I started doing competitions because I had nothing to compare myself to. So no, I did have a coach for a couple of years. Yes. Wow. It's amazing to watch you. I'll tell you what, April, I'm in the market right now for a very good butt routine. And what everybody's telling me is I got to do squats and I got to do, I got to do sprints. They say sprints. I don't know what got any advice for the strong butt muscles? Well, yeah, I would say definitely squats because, I mean, squats are great for your core, for your stomach and for your butt. But, I mean, there's also like lunges and, you know, hip thrusts even. There's a lot of different activities, but for sure. Okay.

I didn't realize this is not what you're here to talk about. While I had you, you know, I figured I might as well ask for all of us. Okay. So an interesting thing happened while you were powerlifting and doing well, and that is you met someone who you didn't know at the time, Andre, right? And I'm making sure I have the name right. I'm just looking for it. And you did not realize, Ann, Ann is the first name.

You did not realize at the time that Ann, who was in your sport, was actually a biological man. Yeah, exactly. Again, like I said, I wasn't meeting people during COVID. I had a friend that I had met named Anne online through Facebook, and we were chatting about powerlifting for year, you know, giving each other little tips and stuff. And I had no idea that Anne was a biological male, a man, until he actually admitted to me during our last conversation saying that, well, because we were talking about Laura Hubbard and how Laura was going to the Olympics. And I was like, that's completely unfair. That shouldn't be happening. And Anne said, well, I'm a man. Didn't you know that? I said, well, no, I didn like, that's completely unfair. That shouldn't be happening. And Anne said, well, I'm a man. Didn't you know that?

I said, well, no, I didn't know that. And I said, well, how far do you expect to be lifting? Are you going to nationals? He's like, oh, I want to go to nationals. I want to go to worlds. And I said, if you do that, I will speak out and I will not be quiet about that. And he blocked and deleted me. And that was my last conversation that I had with Anne.

Wow. All right. So how was Ann doing in the sport? Well, and that's the funny thing. Initially, Ann was not doing that well. But Ann was also, I mean, to me, looked very feminine, right? And I had no clue, right right until he told me that he was a man but then it just seemed i mean if you look up ann's numbers online he spiked from between 2021 up to 2023 to 23 sorry put literally of almost like 300 pounds on all his lifts in one year which is basically unheard of so i mean i don't want to speculate if he went off hormones or what have you, but just like, I mean, he's ranked what number, like, well, he's number one in the world right now for his master's category. And he holds like three out of the five records

in Alberta. So, I mean, go figure. This is Anne at the top of the, you know, he's on the leader block there and number one. Um, okay. So yeah, we don't know whether he went back on or he went off of like the testosterone blocking hormones, but in Canada, that it wasn't a requirement, right? What I read is that according to the rules of the Canadian power lifting union, male to female athletes do not have to make it public that they're trans. They didn't, they weren't required to do any hormone therapy or surgical alteration. All that's been required is to say you're a woman and show an ID, a government ID saying that's it. Is that, has that been the case?

Can you believe that? Exactly. That was basically the, I would call it a trans inclusion policy that my federation had. So basically my boyfriend could walk in tomorrow and self-declare as a woman, take records or compete, and then go back to being a man the next day. That's how simple it was. I couldn't believe it. And that's why I wrote the federation. And I said, look at like, you need to put measures in place to protect women in fairness.

And because I spoke up, they did change the policy. And that's that's only because I pressured them, though, because I had a lawyer. I mean, I also contacted the international governing body. And I said, look, do you know what's going on here in my federation? And they didn't know because no one knew that Anne was a man. Everyone was clueless. There was women that were competing against Anne that had no idea. So I brought it to their attention. And finally, the governing body said, look, you need to do testosterone monitoring at provincials and higher. And you also they need to declare if they're trans basically. So it's not a perfect policy. I saw they changed it. They changed it to testosterone monitoring,

which jumped out at me as like, well, what does that mean? Did they set a minimum level above which the testosterone cannot go? I should say a maximum level. Yeah. So this, and it's, you know, what, and honestly, I don't know if you know a lot about bodybuilders but i mean people that take men that take hrt or or bodybuilders they basically could go on their stuff and then when they come off of it their their test levels drop so any man again i'll use my boyfriend can walk in there with low testosterone levels and be like oh great i got through i can go to worlds now so i I mean, and I said that to them. I'm like, this is not a great policy.

But the thing that kind of stops transgenders from going further than provincials is the fact that they have to submit medical records and they also have to submit their psychological records. And this is where, for example, Anne is not getting through because he refuses to submit his basically his records. So I mean, you need a diagnosis because otherwise, you know, anyone, any male grifter could walk in there. Right, right. And there could be prize money. There could be endorsement deals. I mean, there is potential dollars and cents attached to this decision. Oh, for sure. I mean, I mean, we see it more so in the States, right, States with prize money, but even like we have sponsors,

like I have two sponsors right now. I've probably lost sponsors because I spoke out because I've been so outspoken. I mean, I was kicked out of a museum here in my city because, I mean, I was a display of my sobriety in making Team Canada and they kicked me out of the exhibit because I was speaking out about fairness of women's sports. So you found out that Anne was nonetheless going to be competing in an event, notwithstanding your making clear to Anne it's a no or I'm coming forward. And what happened? Did you participate? Did you or did you boycott the event? Yeah, so I did not participate. I was signed up to compete against him at nationals last year.

So they thought I was going to attend. And the morning of the competition, the judges were asking me where I was. And I text them and I said, look, I refuse to compete as long as there's a biological male. So and then about 20 protesters walked in and protested. And of course, you know, they tried to kick them out. But after that, I basically started writing the Federation. And I had a lawyer involved, too, because they kept on sending me letters of discipline saying they were going to suspend me. And then that was last year. Yeah. For what? Suspend you for what? Well, here we go with the censorship in Canada and our Bill C-16. Basically,

they suspended me because I called Anne Andrus a biological male on the Pierce Morgan show. So, OK, we have a clip of you talking to peers. But it's amazing to me that they were even threatening it like that. This is they're open about the fact that you're just not allowed to say these words. Here's here. Here you are talking to peers. I am the one being punished for speaking truth. Yet he can mock females and say, you know, call me a bigot, incite hate, and nothing's being done about that. But I'm the one being silenced by my federation. What is going to happen to you?

Well, most recently, I've been threatened with suspension. Two weeks ago, I received a letter from my federation stating that you cannot call Anne a biological male. That goes against the code of ethics, you know, because in their policy, they do ask that we use pronouns. They don't force you to, but they ask also. But she is a biological male. Yeah, but truth doesn't matter in this debate because they're just trying to control your language.

They want a different narrative altogether. So you got in trouble for that. Your sport looked at you, an actual woman, and said, because you correctly called Anne a biological male, you were suspended from your sport and you remain suspended to this day. Yes, I can't compete. I did have the suspension reduced because I got a lawyer involved and we appealed it through a third party organization. But the thing is, Megan, Anne's been actually the one harassing people. Like, I don't know if you saw the clip from back last March, making fun of women in their bench press and how weak we are. We had that.

Yeah, they disciplined me and threatened me with discipline. But yet Anne can actually make threats towards me. He made threats last week towards Premier Daniel Smith, like literally death threats. And they cater to this mentally ill, narcissistic man's feelings and puts all the women's feelings and our mental health aside and fairness. Premier is like a local government official in Canada over an uncertain province. We have that with Anne mocking the women. Let's watch it. Welcome to Anne Says Something Controversial. Why is women's bench so bad?

I mean, not compared to me. We all know that I'm a training freak so that doesn't count. Standard bench in powerlifting competition for women. I literally don't understand why it's so bad. My son, he weighs 45 pounds. His max bench is like 33. I'm legit seeing some women in competition who are doing something like 50 pounds. I mean, it's not surprising to me to see somebody like Ann espousing misogynistic tendencies. It's the irony of a lot of these men who choose to pose as women. Many have a deep seated hatred of women. I don't know, Anne, but that's what I hear when I hear those comments.

Well, exactly. And I mean, that's the way it's been the last year, right? And so, I mean, how do you think I feel knowing that they're catering to him and putting my needs aside? Like, you know, I just told you my story of sobriety. You know, not once have I said, oh, you know what, I'm going to go relapse and drink if I don't get my way. But, you know, but that's, I mean, we all have mental health issues. So I just don't know why they're catering to this, to this like small minor community. You know what I mean? Well, and then is I've, I've been given a Facebook post. I think it's Facebook, by my team. And my understanding is this is Anne coming after you, coming after you in just vicious, vile terms. I'm going to read some of it. But has this guy been threatening you explicitly?

Yeah. So a couple of weeks ago, those are the threats. He got upset because I went on, think it was fox news and talked about the basketball players in the states how they've been injured right and he basically and that was the same day i guess some teenager in oakland um got both not bullied well it didn't come out that they got bullied and then i think i'm not sure if they committed suicide but basically he blamed me for the death of the the teenager in Oklahoma two weeks ago. And Premier Daniel Smith said that we were the cause of that person dying, basically.

And that went on to threaten us and said that we should die a very painful death. And so I did have to call the police on Anne. Here's here. Here's Anne to our audience. Anne is fully allowed to participate in this powerlifting sport as a woman. Okay. But our guest April is not because she spoke out about it. Here's what he posted on Instagram. Uh, okay. Pulling out some of the, some of the relevant pieces, the same fucking arguments against trans inclusion has been problem with the subject verb agreement has been used historically against black inclusion. That fucking terrible human

being from Ontario makes profits off of hate the same effing week. I'm done with the fucking with this guy, the same effing week, a human child is killed for being trans. That self-righteous bitch, sorry for gendered insults. I'm pretty angry right now. Goes and talks about how a trans basketball player is hurting women by playing. You don't give a F about women. You care about hate and making a quick buck off of it. You effing sicken me. And you promote this kind of thing. There is no hell, but times like this, I wish there was so you and Smith can spend eternity suffering. Anyone who supports the Ontario lifter,

this is about you, we understand, and is just as effed up as she is, spend some time actually thinking about the people around you instead of just yourself. May your generation die painfully and leave the youth to inherit a better world. Wow. So this is this is about you. You're the Ontario lifter, yes? Yeah, I'm the Ontario lifter. He's he has said many times that April Hutchinson is the Ontario lifter. So, yeah, I'm the only one that's been obviously

using my voice. Right. So. So you contacted the police rightfully in response to this and what happened well i called the police and i told them i had to actually contact the calgary police um i have contacted the the london police where i do live because of a couple of ann's friends here in my city have basically stalked me harassed me gone after my job so i have two reports against them but i did have to call the Calgary police on Anne because I mean, Anne does have family living near me. He does come to Ontario to visit. I feel, I do feel threatened. He is an unhinged man, in my opinion. This has to be documented, this type of behavior, right? So I mean, for sure, if anything else happens, I'll document it again. So is there going to be any reprieve within your sport? I mean, in the wake of his behavior,

his clear threats against you, all you've done is say, and the biological male. And by the way, whoever needs to hear it, and as a man and as a man, it's biological. He's a man. I don't care what he does to himself. He's a man trying to compete wrongfully and unfairly in women's sport. Get out, Anne. Get out. I can say whatever the hell I want because I live in the beautiful United States of America. I hate what's happening in Canada with free speech. But good luck, Canada, because guess what? Your people listen to me, too.

He's a man. OK, anyway, is the sport doing any sort of a reversal or kicking around a reversal to let you back in and ban him? Well, I mean, I can start competing in November because my sentence got reduced. But honestly, my federation has done nothing to support me. Even last year, when I wrote letters about and competing, I got ignored. Again, they just sent me threatening letters. They have not been there to support me whatsoever. You know, there are some bias board members. And that's probably why I got banned. Because I'm sure they have some personal agendas themselves. But I mean, I've had no support.

But you know who has supported me is the international governing body. They've been basically great to work with. I've also had obviously other people like Riley Gaines and other strong women that have been spoken out. But I know I've gotten nothing from my federation, but a lot of lifters have put complaints in about Anne, about the threats.

I can't put a complaint in because I'm not a member right now, but I'm hoping like, I mean, if Anne doesn't get suspended, then like that just goes to show you, you know, the complete bias and, you know, maybe they're afraid to get sued. I'm not quite sure, but no one's ever said we don't want Anne to lift. We just want a separate category. We don't want Anne to be lifting with the women. Yeah. That's the thing is like, I mean, here in the United States, truth is an absolute defense to defamation. You can be sued for defamation,

but if what you've said is true, the person can never recover. And that's why saying, and as a man, is just fine here in the United States. I don't know what Canada, of course, is built on different principles, doesn't have our constitution, our bill of rights, all those things. But it's just so disturbing that they, we've seen this with Jordan Peterson, of course, Gad Saad, our pal who's north of the border. But so many in Canada have had their tongues tied by the government or some governing body that just doesn't want them thinking wrong thought or speaking wrong speech, according to I don't know whom. I don't know whom, you know, people with an agenda, what have you.

So what do the women say, April? Are they thinking at all about banning banding together? Like if you all don't compete, it's not going to be a very meaningful competition for Ann. Would they ever do that? Because my impression in general in Canada is with all due respect to our lovely neighbors up north, they don't all have the fortitude that you do. Well, no, and that's that's the thing, right? We have this bill C-16 in uh trudeau um put in there to basically protect a gender expression and gender so basically they added that in to you know sex and race has always been there but they now added gender so a lot of people are afraid

but i i have to remind people and i do remind people in the like my lifters in my federation too right like you do have freedom of thought, you do, like, we have freedom of thought, right? I mean, let's just say if I was a religious person, right? And that which I do believe there's only two genders, people can't take that away from me. Okay. Now, if I worked in a place where there was a policy, and they say, Okay, you have to use pronouns, of course, I'm going to use pronouns, because that's my work policy, right? But at the end of the day, I do have the right to say that I don't believe a man could be a woman. And that's my personal belief.

And no one can take that away from me. Now, do I go around and bully people and say, like, put it in their face and incite hate? No, there's a huge difference between that and like hate speech and actually just expressing your personal beliefs. So, I mean, that's all I've been doing. I actually have no ill will towards transgenders. I have always said that I literally just wanted a separate category to be created. Yes. And honestly, like Caitlyn Jenner is out there every day tweeting about this kind of thing in the same way you and I are. Caitlyn understands this is of course, formerly Bruce

Jenner. Now Caitlyn Jenner understands how unfair this is. Caitlyn was this world-class athlete when Caitlyn was Bruce, you know, Olympic athlete, decathlon and all. So it's not about trans people. And I think most trans people probably agree with us. It's just the few who try to take advantage of its sport. And it's always a male to female trans person. It's never the other way around. Why? Because we're the ones who can be taken advantage of. Exactly. And that's why I think my, you know, a lot of people that support this are women because women are just more tolerant, we're more nurturing. So a lot of the women, like a few women in the Federation that support this, I mean, some people just are oblivious, and they have no idea what's going on. But I have talked, I actually have a friend who's

transgender. And they said, look, if I go into a bathroom, and someone has a problem with me being there, I step out. If I go into a sport, and one woman has a problem with me competing, I step out. If I go into a sport and one woman has a problem with me competing, I step out. That's how he said, that's basically, he said that Anne himself is making the federation or transgenders look bad because they don't agree with it. And I've talked to many, many, I mean, people, not just in the LGBT plus, but I mean, with her take on it. And I said that all along, if one woman has a problem with and competing, then that policy needs to be changed. That federation needs to start protecting women and fairness. So with, there was some good news out of Canada recently, and that's,

that's rare on the issue of the trans thing. And I wonder whether this is, does this affect you at all? Because this is over in Alberta, which is a different province. And the premier there says that there is legislation coming this fall that will change some of these gender policies. So as the premier, Danielle Smith saying her government will introduce legislation to support the planned policy changes affecting the trans and the non-binary youth and adults. This is via the CBC, uh, defended her rationale for planning to restrict healthcare options. That's how they describe it for the youth and inform parents of any name and gender identity changes. The students requested school top and bottom surgeries. Okay. I hate when they

use those terms. They're talking about double mastectomies for minors. Bottom surgeries is when you get your penis chopped off or try to make a penis out of a vagina by basically hacking off your forearm. That's what top and bottom surgeries really means will be banned for minors under age 17 and under, so anybody under 18. Puberty blockers and hormone therapies for quote gender affirmation will not be permitted for children under 15. Okay. That's still too young, but it's progress. Parental notification and consent will be required for schools before they can alter the name or pronouns of any child under 15. And parents will have to opt in their kids every time a teacher plans to teach about gender identity. Normally they make them opt the student out. The default is they're in and the parent has

to stay alert and opt them out. Now they have to opt them into that. And last but certainly not least, transgender women, again, that means fake women, will be banned from competing in women's sports leagues. And Smith said the government will work with the leagues to set up co-ed or gender neutral divisions for sports. And on that front, April, it's like, yes, for all these women who genuinely don't have a problem, you know, competing like this. Great. Then go ahead and you can join the open category. Do it. Fine. But for the women who are actual women who don't want men in their category, they should have the women's category to themselves. So does any of this affect you or give you hope? Oh, most definitely. Well, it's funny because

Danielle Smith, so that's the premier that got threatened along with me. She actually is the premier of the province that Anne lives in. So that's just even better. So, and I've actually been talking with Danielle Smith's advisor. I just talked to him two days on the, yesterday on the phone, you know, just trying to give him insight and ideas of what's been going on. So the new legislation will be, well, I think in October, going through in October, is going through 100%. I did ask them like, okay, what are you going to do? will be well i think in october going through in october is going through a hundred percent um i did ask them like okay what are you going to do and he said basically we're going to do exactly

what we said like they're going to create co-ed leagues or if ann wants to compete with the men in which he should then he can go compete with the men but um and i was like that's amazing and um and actually holds three out of the five records in Alberta. So, I mean, I've been fighting to have those records stripped, too. So I did write the governing body, but I do feel like those records will be stripped once the new legislation comes in as well. Is Danielle Smith a conservative? Yes. Wow. I didn't think conservatives could get elected in canada i'm surprised is alberta just like a more conservative leaning province how how does this happen explain it to me

well wait for it because our next leader for canada trudeau is going to be out and pierre who is conservative will be in power and that's we love him oh i think everyone loves he's just amazing right and so i mean i think it's october next year so we do have to go through another year of hell with trudeau um but i'm telling you i i know pierre um he's kind of been he's questioned about the new policies that danielle smith and he doesn't really touch the gender affirming part of it but he has has said, look, a biological man should not be in women's spaces or sports. So he was adamant about that. So I do know there will be some changes coming probably next year for sure. How, if you don't mind my asking, are you doing with your recovery

and your sobriety? Because it's a relatively new thing for you. And this is stressful, stressful to get death threats, to be in the news, to be banned from your sport of choice. If there was ever a time where I felt like having a drink, it was this last year. I've never had a craving before until this year just because of the stress, because I was just so upset. I mean, part of my AA program is honesty and integrity. So when you go to a meeting, one of the main topics is to be true to yourself. And there's a quote, I think it's by Hamlet. It says, to thine own self be true to yourself. And there's a quote, I think it's by Hamlet. It says, to thine own self be true. And I always remember that. And I carry my coin around because when I had to go through this last year, and I was almost forced to lie. And that's the part that made me speak out was because like, I couldn't lie to myself every day and say, Oh, okay, and a woman,

how do you think that was affecting my sobriety and my mental health? There was times I couldn't sleep at night and I thought, well, no, I just have to keep doing this. I have to keep speaking out because I just can't let this go. I mean, the future, I don't care if I ever power lift again, but I have two nieces to look after and the future of sports. And that's what I care about is the future generations. So, I mean, my sobriety was teeter-tottering, I guess you could say, but I'm feeling much better now. Oh, good, good. Keep speaking out. You know, there's such power in what you're doing and it really is courageous, especially up in Canada. And clearly you're making a difference. I mean, that's very obvious. They need thousands more just like you up there, April. All the best.

Please let us know if we can help along the way. For sure. Yeah. And you know, I don't feel so alone anymore. There are hundreds. I mean, I feel like I have an army behind me. I actually selling my shirts. I mean, I see these actually people walking around with these shirts and people give me high fives when I wear it. So, I mean, the message is getting out there. People are waking up and I'm hoping someday we can get Canada back to where it was. Yes. Yeah. All I keep thinking of when I'm listening to you is if God be for you, who could be against you?

And God is for you. I mean, you're on the side of the angels on this one. All the best to you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Wow. It's just that isn't your sense of injustice completely peaked that they would kick her out and the man gets to continue competing and threatening her come on even for canada it's

too much um go pierre what canadian debbie or canadian kelly my two canadian producers well how do you pronounce his last name again poly Pollyev, Pierre Pollyev. You guys remember him. He's the one eating the apple in that amazing clip. He's the answer, Canada. Pierre Pollyev. Go, Pierre, go. And start speaking out explicitly when you know you can, when your election's safe. Okay. When we come back, a detransitioner speaking out. And also, do you guys remember hearing about this law firm that was formed down in Texas just to take on these detransitioner cases against the evil medical society that is transitioning them as minors without nary a consultation that is meaningful? Well, we've got one of the lawyers and we're going to

be talking to him about what they're doing and how they can help if you or someone you know needs some assistance in this battle. Across the country, doctors are prescribing a radical form of so-called treatment to children who say they are suffering from gender dysphoria. It includes harmless puberty blockers, which as you know, are nothing of the kind, right into cross-sex hormones, which cause massive damage in that order, and ultimately surgeries, which happens all too soon in these cases. The consequences are, as Abigail Schreier said in her iconic book, irreversible. Her book was called Irreversible Damage. My next guest is someone now trying to hold those responsible and hold them to account. Isabel Ayala spent years taking testosterone

at the advice of her doctors before detransitioning four years ago. Now she's suing the doctors and the healthcare provider that pushed this on her. That's how she feels about it. She is also suing the American Academy of Pediatrics, which is responsible for this so-called medical guidance. Isabel Ayala joins us now along with her attorney, Jordan Campbell, who is now at the forefront of fighting for people like Isabel. Isabel, Jordan, welcome to you both. Hello. Thanks for having us on, Megan. I'm thrilled to have you on. I told the audience, Jordan, we learned about your firm from Billboard Chris when he came on a month or so ago, and I was so excited that you're doing this. It's about time that there's a law firm dedicated to doing this, because honestly, I think you

guys know in this country, we may have wokeism, we may have overreaching medical authorities, but you know what else we have? Lawyers. And while they may be the reason you don't have the most fun things at the playground like we did in the 70s. They're also the thing that's going to lead to the shutdown of this serial abuse of children. So, you know, it's a double-edged sword. Isabel, thank you so much for telling your story. I know this is a tough one for you, but I applaud you for the courage it's taken to come on the show, speak out about it and fight

back, fight back in court against these giants. Uh, it's, it's very brave and it's going to make a difference. So if you don't mind, um, I'd love to go back through just a bit of your history and find out how you felt, found yourself swept into this madness. You had it. How, how old are you now? I'm 21 years old. Okay. So you had a tough childhood in some ways. Can you walk us through some of that before this fake light bulb went on of, gee, I'm in the wrong body and I think I need to be a boy? So I am diagnosed with autism. So that was always kind of something that was a struggle in my life. And I also endured a

sexual assault in my childhood that definitely warped how I saw the world and gave me intense trauma. So when I was in my preteens, I sought out answers. I was on social media for the first time. I was making friends and I discovered what being transgender is. And did it resonate with you immediately? Was it as like a solution to the suffering you were going through? It wasn't immediate. It was more when I saw how happy these people seemed. A term a lot of them use very frequently is gender euphoria.

And when I saw that, these people talking about, like, they were so down on their luck, they were so suicidal, they were looking for answers. It seemed like this thing was the answer. What because we're always reeling about social media on this show, but was there one site in particular that sucked you in and then kept repopulating this kind of messaging to you? I would say Tumblr, most likely. I was definitely on apps like Instagram and stuff like that. But I feel like Tumblr is really what radicalizes a lot of young girls in terms of gender ideology. And was it the kind of thing where you find yourself for hours a day on there reading people's stories, that kind of thing?

Yeah, it kind of becomes an escape. It kind of becomes an interest in itself of trans activism. Mm hmm. It makes sense because this is what happens to all of us. What you surround yourself with, what you choose to consume, it generally rubs off on you in one way, shape or form. You know, it's your story's not unique in that particular way. So you got pulled into something that shouldn't have been available to you, but our social media heads, they don't care. And now your parents, unfortunately,

have gotten pulled into this too. So you went to them at what age to first express, you know, the idea that you thought you might be transgender? Oh, I was about 13, 12, 13. And how did they react? Um, at first they were very concerned because this wasn't something that they could have possibly thought that I would be dealing with. Um, Because I was a very girly girl growing up. You know, I was a typical girl. I liked pink. I liked princesses and dresses and stuff like that.

So it really did come as a shock to them that I presented this piece of information. You know that being sexually abused and being on the spectrum are two risk factors for getting drawn into this, right? You know that now. Yeah. And I see it everywhere now. So did your parents, I understand there was a bit of a split between mom and dad on whether they should be supportive of this or not.

Yes. So my mom was very adamant on waiting on the hormones, but when I was admitted into a psychiatric ward, that's kind of when they like cornered my parents a bit more about that making me go on hormones or that I would commit suicide. This happens so often without a full fleshing out of what is making Isabel feel suicidal. Is it just gender or might it be some of these other fundamental issues? We're going to get to that, of course, with Jordan in a minute. So Isabel, the basis of the lawsuit comes when the medical community gets involved in your case and you went and met, you had an appointment with Dr. Jason Rafferty.

So who's Dr. Jason Rafferty? How'd your, how'd your family find him? So we were actually recommended him. He actually was at the meeting or at least we met with him in the hospital that I was admitted at. So just to back up so the audience can find it, you were spiraling emotionally and saying that you were suicidal. Yes, but at that time, that wasn't true. It was kind of like what I read online, like you're going to need to see, you're going to need to push and make people show the gravity of the situation if you want to get what you want in terms of hormones. And that can mean lying. And that is a thing that I definitely see encouraged even nowadays in the trans community. Oh my gosh. This is still 12 or 13 years old. You're saying the encouragement that you pretend you're suicidal so that your parents will break down and get you the hormones. This is so dark. Okay. So you did, I mean, you're just a kid,

my God, you're just a babe and you go into the hospital and that's where you met Dr. Rafferty for the first time? Yeah, and Dr. Forcier and everybody else that was in the meetings with my parents. What state is this happening in? Rhode Island. Okay. So then you have an appointment, as I understand it, with Rafferty that lasted how long?

About like 45 minutes. And what happened at that appointment? I met with a few different people, his nurse practitioner, and then him. And he basically sat me down and kind of asked me questions about my history. And I was a young kid at the time, nowhere near ready to address the deep trauma that I've been through. So I kind of just told him, yeah, I don't like my body. I'm uncomfortable with my breasts and my female sex organs. And that was enough for him to diagnose me with gender dysphoria. And you knew what to say from the forums.

Essentially, yeah. I would imagine you knew the buzzwords, you know, to get his attention. And this guy, Jordan, was not just your average, you know, random psychologist. He was chairman of the American Academy of Pediatrics. And in particular, they're chairman of the LGBTQ plus health and wellness committee, right? So this is, I mean, to me, that says this is a person with an agenda. That's right, Megan. And one thing to be clear on is at the time he was a resident. He was not a fully, he wasn't a full blownblown pediatrician so as a resident he correct as a

resident he is the one who is um prescribing isabel with life-altering cross-sex hormones while simultaneously working on being the lead author of the aap's 2018 policy statement on uh this type of medicalization which we can get into uh maybe after we hear the rest of isabel's story my god so isabel when you find this out and in retrospect now do you feel like you were this guy's guinea pig definitely like you're telling me you didn't even know half of what you were doing. Like you were actively writing out, Oh, this might be, this might be what's right actively. Well, I am spiraling in real time as I am on testosterone. I end up actually getting hospitalized for a suicide attempt later that year.

So he prescribes you. I mean, at that point, did you need puberty blockers or just cross-sex hormones? No. So I, yeah, at that point I was past the stage for puberty blockers. Um, I was told, so it was cross-sex hormones for the option, which means testosterone. So he, you go home. I gather it was on that visit or the second visit he he prescribes testosterone and this is like serious it's a needle right that you have to inject no yeah and you're doing it yourself like um and it's pretty intense like you have a full syringe a full like 20 gauge needle that you're stabbing into your leg. Yeah. Every week, some people it's even more frequent than that. And I feel like poor you and your poor parents who must have been

just distraught, not, not knowing right. What to do, what was in your best interest, because you've got this doctor saying, this is what we have to do. And so what were mom and dad saying about it all? They were supporting me the best they could. They were under the impression that, you know, these professionals that are well-esteemed and have gone to school and are supposed to be the experts on this are telling me we need to do this for our kid or our kid's going to die. So they were trying to be as supportive as they could at the time to me. Did you did you social transition, socially transition at the time?

I did. Yeah, I was already socially transitioned. Yeah. And that's another thing that's hard to undo once once a child has declared, oh, I'm this other gender and you get all the snaps for it. And that's another thing that's hard to undo once a child has declared, oh, I'm this other gender. And you get all the snaps for it and that's currency and you don't even realize them when you're 12, you're not seeing it clearly. So I've been told that Dr. Rafferty warned your mom that testosterone was your only option and that if you didn't get it, you were going to commit suicide. Like the terrifying words that no parent wants to hear. Yes. Okay.

So how long into the testosterone did things start to spiral downward, further downward for you? So I was on the testosterone probably for like six seven eight months around there I was on it already for extended period of time and I was already really suicidal I was not doing well and ended up getting hospitalized again due to an actual suicide attempt. And as this is going on, I'm still continuing treatment. I'm still continuing testosterone. I'm still being seen by Dr. Rafferty and it's still being given to me. What was happening to you physically during that time as a result of the injections? So I was growing mass amounts of body hair. I was sweating 10 times more than I usually did. I was gaining a lot of weight. I was really

angry. It was just a lot. My menstrual cycle stopped. It was pretty jarring. Right. I can see how this would not be a pick-me-up to a young girl struggling with prior abuse and the other issues that you were trying to deal with. So Jordan, you've now sued Dr. Rafferty, and we'll get to the rest of Isabel's story too on the detransitioning, but who are the other doctors? You've now sued Dr. Rafferty, and we'll get to the rest of Isabel's gender affirming care space for those who are unfamiliar. As long with, excuse me, as well as some of the nurse practitioners and other, anybody basically involved in the purported treatment of Isabel. And then, of course, we were also able to sue the American Academy of Pediatrics and happy to sort of unpack that. But those would be the defendants in Isabel's case.

I'm happy to unpack that, too, because the American Academy of Pediatrics has been on the wrong side with just so many child welfare issues over the past few years. It's no longer, in my view, a credible organization at all. This should not be something that parents are listening to when your doctor says, oh, well, the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends it. For me, I'm running out the door when I hear that. We're going to squeeze in a quick break and we're going to pick up with Isabel and Jordan right after this.

Don't go away. So Isabel, let me go back to you and figure out, you talked about how seven months into it, things were spiraling downward. You actually did attempt to take your own life. You go back into the hospital. And what happens at that point? Was that the before and after moment? No, at that point, I was so consumed in the ideology that things really came to a standstill. And I was still taking testosterone. I would continue to for two years after that. My goodness. And Rafferty's your doctor the whole time?

Not the whole time. Eventually we do move to Florida and I continue care under a different doctor over here. Okay. So by my calculation, then you were around 15 when you stopped? I was about 17. I started at 14. Okay. And what led you to realize this is not for you, that you should stop the testosterone and you didn't want to be doing this anymore? I didn't even know detransitioning was an option until I saw a woman do it and talk about the reasons why she did it. And that really made me think critically, well, why did I do this in the first place? So what, where do you go for help with that? Cause you can go to any medical professional now, if you want to get affirmed,

quote unquote, and put on cross-sex hormones, but where do you go when you say this was a mistake? You can't really go much anywhere, especially telling the truth. I've heard of some women that have had to lie saying they were using testosterone for weightlifting purposes to receive care because doctors don't want to touch those cases in fear of being seen as transphobic. Wait, you're saying women like you who are taking testosterone because you think you're transgender, who then want to stop, some of them lie that they're detransitioning to avoid resistance from doctors who don't want to help with a detransition? Yes. Some have had to like experimented with lying to see how doctors would react and some have had pushback. Oh my gosh. This is even worse than I knew. So you, you saw some detransitioners speaking out and there have been more and more of them and God bless you for doing it now. And like, what did you do? Did you just kind of stop it one day? Is that even safe? It's not safe. And I don't recommend stopping in cold Turkey like I did, but I was just so fed up that I didn't even want to see my doctor at that point. I just,

I didn't want to talk to her. And so how did you get from that point to you have Jordan in your life and you're going after these people because that's a pretty brave, bold move. I kind of stayed stagnant with it as I still had the majority of my friends being from the trans community. So I didn't really speak out about anything, but more and more I see people online talking about it and my health issues have gotten worse since then and that really made me stop and think can like is this really this is really happening this is happening to many young girls

I'm not the only one that this has happened to. And I really don't want this to happen to other young women who are struggling with anything, whether it's regarding their self-image or an eating disorder or even just navigating the world as being an autistic person. What were some of the additional physical consequences you're referencing? So when I was seeing my second doctor, she diagnosed me with hypothyroidism and that eventually devolved into Hashimoto's disease, which is an autoimmune disease of the thyroid. And it has been really debilitating on my physical health. And I was a really healthy kid beforehand. All I really had were like allergies. I didn't have any major health consequences. There weren't many major genetic health problems that my family had.

So it didn't seem like something that I would just develop out of nowhere. And what about, you mentioned some of the consequences to the testosterone early on, after years on it. What happened to you? I'm just completely different from how I was. And I'll never be the way I was before I started testosterone. My bone structure is compromised due to the fact that I was a growing and developing teenager and actively taking testosterone. I'm dealing with things such as vaginal atrophy, irregular periods. I don't even know if I'm fertile or if I'm ever going to be able to have children. And there's also just a lot of the emotional things as well that go along with it.

I'm so sorry this was done to you. I am so sorry this was done to you. Jordan, that's where you come in. She's not alone. There are far too many kids who are being pushed into this machine. And let me just start with why does the machine exist? Money? That's a great question, Megan, and I'm sure that's a complicated answer. You can definitely hear folks talk about sort of gender ideology as a cult, and whether that's accurate or not, I won't necessarily say. But with any cult, I would say you have both true believers and you have opportunists.

And I think that you have a mix of that amongst the medical profession, folks that genuinely believe that what they're doing, as insane as it may sound to someone like you or me, is actually beneficial in helping these desperate children and vulnerable young adults. And then you have opportunists that see a giant money-making machine and make no mistake, it is a multi-billion dollar industry in the United States alone. For whom in particular? For surgeons, for endocrinologists, for primary care physicians, for organizations like Planned Parenthood, you can look at research. There was a study done that showed that just gender reassignment, and I love how you use scare quotes, by the way, Megan, gender reassignment surgery is whatever that euphemism means. In 2022, it was a $2.2 billion industry.

That's just the surgery. That's up from $1.9 billion in 2021. And it's predicted to be a $5 billion industry by 2030 alone. And that's just the surgical side of things, if it is left to continue growing at the pace that it is. That's not even speaking to the cross-sex hormones or the puberty blockers, of course, which big pharma is profiting off of to the tune of hundreds of millions, if not billions of dollars a year as well. Isabel, I understand, thankfully, you didn't go the surgical route at all. No, thank goodness my insurance did not cover it. Thank God.

Right. Thank God, because they are starting to more and more, Jordan, are they not? More and more of these kinds of procedures are covered by insurance. Well, it's a great question, the timing that you just asked that, Megan, because yes, they have been in the past few years increasingly covering. We do know that going back into maybe middle of last year, we've started to hear and hear firsthand anecdotes of either insurance companies stopping covering these types of procedures or hospitals quitting offering these types of procedures. yesterday heard from a client that the surgery center that performed her surgery some years ago in July of last year announced that it would no longer be allowing gender reassigning surgeries. Coincidentally, July of last year is when we filed our first two lawsuits. And we've heard other anecdotes that as the litigation is now starting to proliferate, hospitals, and I would

predict very shortly, insurers are going to start taking a second look at what's actually happening and Lord willing, stop offering these procedures or offering coverage for these procedures. You're a hero. You are a hero. This is exactly what's needed. The medical profession is terrified of lawyers and for good reason. I mean, I know that they, we wind up leading to a bunch of extra red tape on a bunch of procedures that maybe don't need it, but there really is a useful and important avenue for lawyers in America. And it is reigning in these type of out of control, so-called professionals who want to line their own pockets, who really are more concerned about what they can buy than they are about who they can help. And you you will scare them because all it's going to take is a few big lawsuits and just a couple of big judgments.

That's it. You know, I hope you're right. And I would say a couple of things. One, I appreciate the praise. I would deflect and say our clients are the true heroes. They're the ones who are really sticking their neck out there, telling extremely emotional, traumatizing stories and taking a big step into the public and they're putting their um i mean everything at risk their friends their friendship groups um their reputations their emotional well-being it's not easy to sit here like isabel has done and tell her story of trauma and abuse uh both at the hands of of her sexual abuser when she was young and at the

hands of the medical professionals who did this to her. And I love how you said, Megan, I'm so sorry this was done to you. Because all too often, you hear people say, I can't believe I did this, or I can't believe that they chose that. And that's not the case. These are victims of predators. So I just want to say that our clients are the true heroes who have the courage to go out there, risk their friend groups, risk

their emotional well-being, and not just to pursue justice on their behalf. But you heard Isabel say this, and every single one of our clients will say the exact same thing. They are not out here to make a big damages recovery. In fact, none of them have even brought up damages or monetary reward when we talk with them. Universally, what they all say is, I am doing this because I do not want what happened to me to happen to another vulnerable young woman or girl in my situation. And if my story can stop that, then I'll do whatever it takes to make that happen. And so that's why our clients are truly just amazing. Now, to your point of, it may just take a few big victories before this whole house of cards starts to come tumbling down. I hope you're right. And I know

we've seen that before with other previous medical scandals. Ones that jumped to mind would be the multiple personality scandals in the 90s, as well as the repressed memory scandal also of the 90s, early 2000s. And what happened there, as you may very well be familiar, but a couple big wins, and those scandals were litigated into oblivion. And so you're right. While we lawyers are often responsible for a lot of the killjoy amongst our country, every now and then we can actually do some good, and that's what we're hoping to do, Megan. That's right. Absolutely right. So on the subject that you just raised, there was, I'm sure you saw Michael Schellenberger, great journalist, has done this in-depth

investigation on WPATH. And I want to make sure I say what WPATH stands for correctly. It's the World Professional Association for Transgender Health. And in these tapes that he was leaked amongst medical professionals talking about these procedures and hormones and all of it on a Zoom call, it appears to have been leaked to Schellenberger, they're admitting what you just said, not your doctors in this case, but doctors who are doing these procedures and who are part of WPATH, that of course, how on earth could Isabel give informed consent at 12, 13, 14 to sterilizing herself, to vaginal atrophy, you know, to all of the things that she just listed. And they know it too. Here's a little bit, her Schellenberger of WPATH internal video in which that discussion takes place. It's hot six.

I think the thing you have to remember about kids is that we're often explaining these sorts of things to people who haven't even had biology in high school yet. And I know I've heard others in this kind of a setting say, well, we think adults are like really slick biologically. In fact, lots of people have very little medical understanding of stuff like that we just put medical professionals and mental health professionals take for granted, but I don't know still what to do for the 14 year olds. The parents have it on their minds, but the 14 year olds, you just, it's like talking with diabetic complications with a 14 year old. They don't care. Of course. I mean, we don't have to be doctors to know that Jordan, but they do it anyway.

Like what that didn't lead to. And we should never do this to another child again. No, in the WPATH files, we've had the opportunity to review them. And I think there's a couple of major things that come out of them. One is it absolutely tears away at the talking points and decide that WPATH has continued to roll out for years now that their recommendations, their quote standards of care that they publish are evidence based. Number one, that's not true. And the files show a good bit of that. But of course, anybody who has been sort of paying attention or studying the science or following the work of groups like SEGAM, Society for Evidence-Based Gender Medicine, they already knew that. But I'm glad that Schellenberger's report has sort of exposed that, hopefully, to the general public at large.

One of the other things that the WPATH files has done is to show that not only is it not evidence-based, it's not safe and effective, and they know that, and yet they continue to publicly push this despite what they say in private. The third thing that you will see from the WPATH files is that no matter what, no matter the complications, and you'll see this on the internal forum chats that Schellenberger and his team have published, is it doesn't matter what the complications are. The only solution is to continue, quote unquote, affirmation in hormone therapy and surgery. You'll see phrases like males on estrogen who report that their erections feel like shattered glass.

And I'm sorry to speak so bluntly, but it needs to be done. And there is no hesitancy to continue treatment. And it's all throughout the files. And it is happening all throughout the country. And hopefully what Mr. Schellenberger and his team will have done with this is exposed what folks like you and my team and my firm who are living this every day see on a regular basis, that these practitioners kind of run through every red stop sign, every red light. And it is all affirmation, regardless of the consequences, regardless of the comorbidities of the patient when they come in,

regardless of the patient's ability of the comorbidities of the patient when they come in, regardless of the patient's ability to comprehend or give informed consent. And I hope that the WPATH files achieve sort of the lifting of the veil and the awakening to the public of what's actually happening. Who are these people in WPATH? I mean, it's got the fancy name, World Professional Association for Transgender Health. Who are they? That's a great question. And the answer is it's a group of medical professionals and activists. The interesting thing about WPATH is they often hold themselves out as a medical organization. In reality, it's an activist organization, maybe a trade association at best, but it's open membership. And so it's not just doctors that are members of WPATH, but it is, by and large, activists and activist doctors who sort of have, by hook or crook, sort of created this imprimatur based on what pretense, I don't know, but they have been treated by society at large and all too many actual medical organizations here in the

states as authoritative. Here's more from the WPATH files, Michael Schellenberger, of them admitting these so-called professionals about how these kids, they don't, they don't have the capacity to get it. I mean, we don't let them have cigarettes until they're 16. They can't vote until 18. They can't drink until 21. And yet we're expecting them to understand the complexities of puberty blockers into cross-sex hormones and double mastectomies and vaginoplasties and all of it. SOT7. So one of the things I do is I just kind of, I'm sitting with the youth and their parents and I say, oh, well, so tell me more about what you know about that medical intervention.

And kind of like what Dan was saying, you know, children and young adolescents, we wouldn't really expect them. It's kind of a developmental, it's kind of a developmental it's out of their developmental range sometimes to understand the extent to which some of these medical interventions are impacting them we do it we try to talk about it but most of the kids are nowhere in any kind of a brain space to really really really talk about in a serious way. That's always bothered me. But, you know, we still want the kids to be happy, happier in the moment, right? Oh, my God. Happier in the moment.

In the moment. I mean, when you hear that, Isabel, what do you think in the moment? That's their goal. In the moment? That's not going to fix any long-term issues. That'll create more issues down the line. Do you feel like you gave anything close to informed consent?

Not really, no. I would have never known the full gravity of what would have happened to me. I could have never even predicted some of this stuff. What do your parents say? Did they feel like they knew? I don't think they knew either. These drugs are very experimental and all they knew that it was going to masculinize me. We didn't know anything. And that too is basically admitted in these files. Here's just one more. Sadi, listen to to this i try to kind of do whatever i can to help

them understand best best i can but what really disturbs me is when the parents can't tell me what they need to know about a medical intervention that apparently they signed off for. Yes, it disturbs us all. So here's here's let's get back to Isabel's doctors, because I'm very interested. I mean, I'm interested in WPATH, but I'm very interested in the American Academy of Pediatrics. You know, this was supposed to be the gold standard. If you heard they recommended this schedule of vaccines, you did it. And then during COVID, they were recommending we stick the needle in our minors' arms without question. Yes, go ahead and do it. No warnings of myocarditis. None of it. Just do it. And millions of people did it. You know, most of the parents I know did it because it was mandated at our schools. We didn't do it.

We got a considerable amount of blowback for it. And I'm very thankful we didn't. But there have been, you know, more and more red flags on not to trust this group, as far as I'm concerned, over the past several years. So this guy, Rafferty, was, as I mentioned, part he was the resident when he was treating Isabel, but heading up this LGBTQ plus group within it, Jordan. And he is on camera, along with one of your other defendants, Michelle Forcier, talking about these issues. Just want the audience to hear from these two and then we'll get Jordan's reaction here. Watch this.

So what we really advocate for in the in the paper is the sort of the gender affirmative model of care. At the end of the day, it is about validating each person's experience and allowing them to be more self-confident, allowing them to hopefully have a higher self-esteem because they feel like they can be themselves and that they're appreciated for it. Kids rarely change their minds about their gender identity. To say three and four-year-olds don't understand gender doesn't give our kids a lot of credit. Nutrition doctor Michelle Forcier says gender identity is formed very early. It's not a fad or a phase. And I tell parents that even though they may feel or want to believe that.

Jordan, she said three and four-year-olds. Three and four-year-olds, she said, should, I guess, we should be ceding the decision-making to them before they can actually form proper sentences? A couple of things, actually, on that. Megan, I believe that video is from 2016 or 2017, and it is a very different tone than other video that she, I believe, is recorded on around 2012, where she basically says the opposite. So there's some sort of change in how she understands children's understanding of their gender. But yes, that is not a surprising clip. If you've read AAP's policy statement, which again, Dr. Rafferty drafted, again, as a resident at the time while he was treating Isabel at the time and seeing her spiral out of control at the purported science and research to actually support it, the footnotes that it says to support those radical ideas that any child who expresses that they want to be in the other, you know, another sex should be given cross-sex hormones or puberty blockers that would eventually lead to cross-sex hormones. You'll see that none of it actually, it's completely unsupported.

It's, I don't want to say spun out of whole cloth, but it comes pretty close. And Dr. James Cantor, as we put in our complaint, actually published a twice peer-reviewed journal article that exposes the utter lack of science underlying the recommendations, the official recommendations of the American Academy of Pediatrics. So those clips are unsurprising, sadly, given what we know of the defendants and how their policy statement was created and the lack of evidence to support it. I have talked about this on the show before, but there's that moment when your kid hits like 14 or 15, where the pediatrician says, mom, you need to step outside. We're going to have a private

conversation with your kid without you. And I think back in the day, not too long ago, we would have done it thinking it's a sex ed thing. They don't want to ask them if they're having sex in front of a parent. They want to talk to them about safe sex. But we know now that one of the agenda items is this, is whether you're in the right body. Are you sure you're a boy? Are you sure you're a girl? We've heard that testified to over and over, but by various kids and their parents who spoke with their kids. And it's a no now. It's a no. You will not be raising that with my child, you adherent to this academy of pediatrics, this American Academy. No, I know what they're pushing on my doctor, and they're certainly not going to start pushing that on my child with me in the room or not. So what if you zoom out, Jordan, what do parents need to know about this group? Because they really are like this. This is the group. all of our pediatricians belong to this group, basically.

Well, a couple of things, Megan, I would just one, push back a hair, just that the average rank and file pediatrician who may be a member of the AAP may very well be and probably is a great doctor and a great pediatrician who either does not know about this or just is, you know, kind of head down. They're a paying member, but they're not paying attention to what one subcommittee is doing and potentially maybe even hijacking the policies of the AAP in doing so. That said, I do think that any parent, and I'm a parent, I have seven children, actually, that any parent with any of your doctors should be very clear with what they're, you know, what they are saying to your children or knowing maybe the worldview they come from. And if this is not something you support, and it absolutely should not be, then you certainly need to be aware of whether that's

something that your particular pediatrician is pushing. And lastly, Jordan, just give us a minute on your firm and how people can reach out to you if they need help with this, like your mission and who you're helping and what you're doing. Yeah, thanks, Megan. We started just under a year ago, last April, actually, with the singular mission of representing detransitioners. And that quickly morphed into representing detransitioners and others harmed by radical gender ideology. We left all of our prior practices, all of our clients, to be laser focused on this singular issue. And when I say others harmed by radical gender ideology, some of our clients include parents of children who have committed suicide after being put on this quote unquote gender affirming care. We will be representing soon the plaintiffs and

the Chandler versus CDCR, the litigation on California, challenging California's bill that says any male prisoner can say I'm a female and go to women's prison. And I know you're familiar with that issue after having just had Amy Achecawa and Kelsey Bowler on. So we'll be joining that. We also represent a whistleblower, Tamara Pitsky, up in Washington State, who went public a few weeks ago in the Free Press with a great follow-up from leah sapir and city journal um but that's sort of what we uh we basically became aware of what was going on and with this trans ideology and agenda and in particular the impact it was having on children and sort of each of the four of us said we should do something and so decided to use our training and abilities that we have been given to do something. And so for those that are interested in helping out, there are

great organizations that are supporting. Wolf, for instance, Women's Liberation Front is helping support Isabel's case as well as the Chandler case. That's the women's prison case. Groups like the Themis Resource Fund is a new non-profit that is existing to help fund these lawsuits because make no mistake these are very expensive lawsuits for our point is um the expert fees of themis themis resource fund the expert resource or excuse me export expert expenses and costs in these cases can run over 200 to $300,000. And that's ultimately coming out of the client's pocket. So if you are interested in helping financially, please, those are great organizations. You can also go to our website

at campbellmillerpain.com or cmppllc.com or if it's easier, detranslaw.com. And there's a means to donate and all that money will go directly towards the expert fees to defray those costs for our clients. I believe in your mission wholeheartedly. I hope you expand it once you get this going and rolling and keeping the firm afloat. To people who are forced to use certain language, right? We've seen people fired because they won't say the pronouns. We are, you know, our first guest today got booted out of the Canadian powerlifting league because she refused to say a man was a woman. And there's so many people who need help. That does matter. Professional jobs and that

matters. This matters more, the physical health and wellbeing of our children. That does matter. Professional jobs and that matters. This matters more. The physical health and well-being of our children. That's issue number one. That's the number one battle in this front. I'll give you the last word on it. Go ahead, Jordan. I was just going to say, Megan, to the point of expanding and hopefully growing, we haven't forgotten what you said to Billboard, Chris, that you would leave your current job to come do this. So we've got a partner physician for you waiting just whenever you're ready. Thank you very much. I don't think I've been admitted in Texas, but I passed the bar in Massachusetts and Illinois and New York. So maybe once I'm ready to hang it up, I will give you a call

because I would do this for free. I would 100% for free. Isabel, I'm sending you all my love. And I support you. And please let me know if you need any further exposure or if you have a friend who wants anything that we can do to help you. We're rooting for you. And I think I speak for my audience when I say,

we're praying for you. The future looks brighter than it has for a long time, I'm sure. Thank you so much, Kelly. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having us on, Megan. All right, see you guys soon. Wow, wow, wow, Kelly. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having us on. All right. See you guys soon. Wow. Wow. Wow. Wow. This is just, you know,

you remember that segment I did on the pronouns? God, I've been thinking about it a lot lately. I've been thinking about it a lot. I've been thinking about the first part of that segment where I said, you know, when I was at NBC, kind of emotional about it because look at this poor girl, what it was done to her. That I realize now I was part of this problem. You know, I was, my heart was in the right place. I wasn't trying to push anything bad on kids. I thought I was being supportive of them. I thought I was promoting anti-bullying and now I just have such regret about it. And I'm not a regretful person, as you know, because if you're not actively fighting against this, you are part of the problem. You are hurting people like Isabel,

people who are vulnerable, who have been hurt. You just, you have to fight, whether it's a donation or just using your voice or retweeting, you know, support from people like Isabel and Jordan, do it, do something, just do something. Please don't protect yourself and don't be lured into thinking it's empathetic to support this radical, radical experimentation on minors. Okay. When we come back, one more segment, and it's a whopper. Robbie Starbuck is here for the first time to talk about his new documentary, The War on Children. He sent this to me privately. Elon Musk has been tweeting about it. Very, very powerful film. And we'll get into what's in there. Lots of hosts you may know and probably love. Great people like Dr. Laura, I'm back.

Nancy Grace, Dave Ramsey, and yours truly, Megan Kelly. You can stream the Megan Kelly show on Sirius XM at home or anywhere you are. No car required. I do it all the time. I love the Sirius XM app.

It has ad free music coverage of every major sport, comedy, talk, podcast, and more. Subscribe now. Get your first three months for free. Go to SiriusXM.com slash MKShow to subscribe and get three months free. That's SiriusXM.com slash MKShow and get three months free. Offer details apply. Do you feel like you had informed consent? No, I mean. Offer details apply. And there's just a lot of information that I didn't know about, like my own anatomy. Because mind you, I was so young, I hadn't taken a sex ed class. I hadn't even seen like diagrams.

I think the biggest thing that they left out that I still deal with sometimes is the nerve damage on my scars and my chest. You know, they told me I might lose sensation, but I was expecting numbness. I wasn't expecting like the electrifying jolts and just itchy sensation that I can't scratch. What were some of the effects of testosterone in your female body? Increased permanent body hair. My voice is deepened. I don't know if you could see it under the lighting, but I actually, I have a slight Adam's apple. Is it your hope that those things will go away?

Well, I've just kind of accepted that some of these things I have to live with. That was detransitioner Layla Jane in the new film, The War on Children, by filmmaker Robbie Starbuck. Robbie formerly directed stars in music videos and has now turned to covering the most important issues facing our society. This is a documentary, again, called The War on Children, and it exposes the left's attempt to sexualize and indoctrinate and, quote, transition children. Robbie, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for having me, Megan, and for shining a light on this issue. Oh, I mean, right back to you. I thought the world of the piece, uh, it was, is your wife, the, the, your co-anchor, your partner in the film? She is. It's hard to believe she's so beautiful. People are like, she must be somebody else. She related to you or something. There's no way you married her. That wasn't it, but she was wonderful

too. She did. Both of you did a great job. I just, I've, I've heard of you and I've seen you out there tweeting about this. And I, this is my first introduction to her and I thought she was terrific. Um, so this covers, yes, what, what we're doing to our youth with the totally inappropriate quote transitions of minors. Um, but it, it goes beyond that. And I thought of you because on Monday we were railing about the absurd Scott Pelley statements in that 60 Minutes piece about what ideology is it really that Moms for Liberty is upset about? What books really? And to say that there are groomers amongst teachers in the librarian class who select these books is really just an extremist right wing hate smear. And I thought you should really send him your movie.

Absolutely. I mean, this is the proof, the evidence that so many on the left need to see. And it's actually a big reason we made this movie, because I know the people on the super far fringes there, they're not going to even watch. They're not going to give it a chance. But the people in the middle, the people who were center left, the old blue dog Democrats, they are movable. These are sensible people that you can show this film to and they go, oh my gosh, I've been lied to. And that's why I think one of the most important things we did in the film, aside from giving survivors a voice, was going and using the words of the mainstream media and showing the people how they've been lied to, where we we super cut through MSNBC, CNN, NBC, all these places

saying that no surgeries are being done to minors. And we hard cut to someone like Layla Jane. And I ask, how old were you when they gave you a double mastectomy? And that's when you find out it was the month of her 13th birthday. She hadn't even had a sex ed class in school yet. And they did this to her. And, you know, she's a survivor. She's made it through. But there are a lot of young men and women who are not making it through that are going to die. They're going to end up in a position where they don't get to grow up and have a family and detransition. That's never going to be an opportunity for them because they're not going to make it through this. You speak to, among others, Riley Gaines, who is great, as expected in the film. And she's gotten to the point where she can make these points so effectively and

articulately in a short amount of time. Here's a good exchange between the two of you and SOT19. We were forced to swim against biological male Leah Thomas, who is formerly Will Thomas, who swam three years on the men's team at University of Pennsylvania. Of course, then transitioning to the women's category his senior year to where he dominated the women. First of all, we weren't forewarned we would be sharing a locker room. We had no idea. We're in this locker room. I'm changing.

I had my back turned silent. I turn around. A 6'4", 22-year-old man disrobing, fully intact with an exposing male genitalia. The only time we became aware that this was the arrangement was when we had to see it with our own eyes. Is it fair to refer to what happened to you with Leah Thomas exposing his penis

to you and other female swimmers' mental rape? No, it most certainly is fair to say that. If a man would have walked into a woman's locker room, a DA is walking in there arresting this man and he is getting charged with sexual harassment, voyeurism and decent exposure. And I'm sure the list can go on of charges. But now it really is celebrated. It's encouraged. Right. It's celebrated and encouraged and you're and you get shamed if you speak up'm, forgive me for not allowing you to respond to that one before I play another one, but I do, I love this film and I really thought it was so compelling. I couldn't turn it off. And there's a teacher in here who talks about how she, she felt like she was being asked to lie to her students. And I heard her say, I'm like, that's exactly right. How uncomfortable they make us lie to ourselves, to our companies, to in her case, her students, which is all hashtag

part of the problem. Take a listen to SOT16. This is fire teacher, Jessica Tapia. You're a teacher who refused the transgender ideology at your school. And in return, you were fired and the school refused to accommodate your religious beliefs. How did that make you feel? It felt surreal and it still does honestly. You could have never told me that I would spend seven years going to college to become a teacher, you know, live out my dream. Impacting and influencing, you know, the next generations only to six years into my career be let go of because according to my school district, they could not accommodate my religious beliefs. The policies they presented me really essentially are wrapped around lying. So lying to students first and foremost, because they they've asked me to call children by whatever they want to be called by whatever gender pronoun it is. I have to go along with that. And so if you really think

about that, right, that is lying to a child. So, Robbie, making us lie about the pronouns is all part. It's an important part of their game. It's very important because it's about shared reality. You know, any type of cultural Marxism that's come to be comes to be through chaos and dividing us on the lines of reality. What's real anymore? And so if you force people to lie and you change the definitions of words, this is the end result is you're able to usher in a cultural Marxism across the board that leads to a political Marxism. And that's really the end goal here is a modern form of

communism. That's what we're facing. You know, my family came from Cuba and it's a big reason why I felt compelled to basically burn down my career in Hollywood and speak out about these issues, you know, because it's just about the dumbest thing you can do in Hollywood is come out and be like, hey, I'm a conservative and let's talk about all these issues you you know, because it's just about the dumbest thing you can do in Hollywood is come out and be like, Hey, I'm a conservative. And let's talk about all these issues. You guys act like lunatics about, you know? Yeah, completely. But you, you do a very effective job in the film of showing how some of these sneaky things have gotten into our school systems that sound nice. And it's not just DEI. I think our audience is familiar with how they've done that. But to pull a couple, exposure effect, the mere exposure effect, comprehensive sex ed, which is not what you think it is, folks, and social emotional learning. Let's start on that

last one because it has such a nice name and it used to do kind of nice things. Social emotional learning. All right. So talk about what that was and why now if parents hear that they need to have a red flag up. It sounds so nice, doesn't it? I mean, all these words, that's that's really it's great marketing. I'll give them that they've really marketed these things effectively because who hears that and thinks, oh, that's a threat. You know, it's kind of like a teddy bear with a bomb inside. You would never expect it. Right. But the reality of this in practice in classrooms results in, hey, essentially, we're going to remove the lines of what is right and wrong because you can't judge anybody. That would be, you know, not emotionally okay for that other person. They'd feel emotionally

unsafe. It leads to all these sort of social justice topics. And it's an opening for the teachers to insert their own political ideology. And so really, I can't explain it better than the experts in the film do, because they so perfectly pick apart everything wrong with social emotional learning. But as you go down the line, like you said, all of these different issues, they may sound nice in theory, but in reality, they work out very differently. Basically, it's teaching everything through this racial and equitable lens, which just restores racial racial hierarchies and equity is really just code for inequity and racism. I mean, that's the truth. So what was once more of a, like a pay attention

to feelings and all that has now been co-opted into a racial imprint is on everything. And there is a hierarchy that is taught to your kids through this social, emotional learning. You take on DEI and this race essentialism that's pervasive now in so many of our school lessons. I mean, it's everywhere. And you feature my favorite pastor. We played him just the other day. He was one of the ones who took a stand publicly saying, let me read you this disgusting book that wound up in our school library. Oh, is it something I said? Oh, you, did I offend you at the school board meeting? Um, his name is John. I'm a chick. You, I don't care. I don't have it. It's Aman Chuck. Woo. That's how it's pronounced. Forgive me, John. You're amazing.

You know, I love you. Uh, and here's a bit of you talking to him about what's happening. This is again from The War on Children. Watch. What does it mean to you as a Black man, as a Black father? Do you feel protected or included by knowing that there's a DEI officer at every school? No, I don't. It doesn't benefit Blacks through DEI. In North Carolina, in particular, when you consider Wake County, we've had a DEI office since 2013, and they have spent nearly $8.7 million on that office. And where are the measurable outcomes? You can't find any. So as you've taken a hard look at this, you know, the race craziness, the gender craziness, and the weird attempt to sexualize our children at very young ages, do you have a thought on what's the biggest threat?

And also, are we winning this war or losing it? All of these things are weapons in the war on children that all ultimately lead to the desire to usher in a modern form of communism. You know, like we cover social media and big tech in the film and its effect on young people. And I think social media is a really good example for the older crowd to understand the difference between modern communism and the communism from their generation, because some of them have thought, oh, well, this couldn't be communism. They're not outright saying they want to take control of private industry. But you don't need to anymore. The truth is the modern day

communists are even less honest than the communists of the past. And that's saying something since the communists of the past were disgusting liars. So these ones are even bigger liars. And if you look at big tech functionally, take a look at how they treated censorship around the 2020 election. Myself and Charlie Kirk currently have an amicus brief at the Supreme Court in the Missouri v. Biden case because DHS used proxies paid by the government to make censorship requests to take down our accounts on social media because we were pushing facts and stories that were not what the media wanted or what the administration wanted the narrative to be. And so when you look at the reality of what our government's turned into, they essentially own big tech. They can tell them what to do at every turn. You look beyond the apps, you know,

that we're all on for social media at a company like, say, Google. Google answers to the Democratic Party look no further than a lot of their executives and employees, like their comms director, who has a litany of far left Democrats he worked with before he became an executive at Facebook. So, you know, I think all those things together, you can very clearly see that they want to control all these segments of society, these cultural institutions to push an authoritarian far left vision for our country. And the reason our kids are so important is because you need to separate kids from their parents to be able to usher in this ideology. It works like that every single time they did it in Cuba. They will do the same thing here if we don't stop them. And as to your point of, are we winning the war?

I'm going to be really honest. We are not winning at this point. Have we started to turn the tide? Yes. But the reason that we made this movie, the reason that we're doing everything that we're doing is because we desperately need to win. We need to wake people up. We need to get the word out there

about what this actually is. And I think one of the most toxic things is, you know, a lot of people, they get these stories, their life is so busy. You see them on a, you know, bi-weekly basis. So you'll see some crazy story about a kid being transitioned. And then two weeks later,

you see one about a DEI policy resulting in something terrible. But it's very difficult unless you see it all at once to really understand the totality of how evil this really is. And that's why we made the film, because this can take somebody who does not understand what's going on. And if they sit and watch the film at the end of it, they will have no excuse to not be activated to be a warrior for our kids and save this country.

Because even if you disagree with me on tax policy or school choice or whatever it is, you should care enough about our children, about the future generation, about their minds, about the freedom of their minds to stand up and do something to stop this ideology in its tracks, because the religion of wokeness will destroy this country if we don't stop it. Amen. Amen. Robbie, well done. Again, it's called The War on Children. Of course, it's you're not going to see it on HBO. You're not going to see it over on Hulu. You've got to see it, though. So just go to the war on children dot com. Support Robbie and enlighten yourself, because even I immersed in this stuff every day, learned a ton from this film. And I'm grateful to you for making it, Robbie. All the best.

Thank you so much. Your work means a lot to us, too. And we're big fans. So keep it up. And thank you so much for shining a light on our film. Thank you. Again, war on the war on children dot com. And I do want to say in response to our earlier segment, the defendants in Isabel's lawsuit have not yet weighed in on this. We don't yet have their all of their denials. I'm sure that they are denying the charges levied against them and that that will play out in litigation. But if they would like to come on and defend themselves, they are welcome here to offer their defenses in full. Tonight, it's the State of the Union. So that's exciting. We'll have it fully covered for you

tomorrow. Tune in then. But we will have a good show tomorrow, so you should tune in. Thanks for watching, you guys. We appreciate it. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.