The Megyn Kelly Show - Running Directly Into the Fight, Honoring Those We've Lost, and Fatherhood, with Dakota Meyer | Ep. 331

Episode Date: May 27, 2022

In this Memorial Day special, Megyn Kelly is joined by Dakota Meyer, Medal of Honor recipient and Marine, to talk about growing up and figuring life out on your own, the importance of accountability, the Ganjgal mission that led to his Medal of Honor, the importance of having a "poker face" in the military, staying stoic in difficult situations, the fear leading up to that fateful mission, how he helped save so many fellow Americans and Afghan military members, his decision to ignore orders and run into the fight over and over again, the egos between the Marines and the Army in that fight, the lack of leadership and the consequences, the awful Afghanistan withdrawal, receiving the Medal of Honor from President Obama, honoring those we've lost who sacrificed for America, having empathy and choosing love over hate, his suicide attempt and the cost of war, how fatherhood changed him, and more.Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKellyTwitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at: https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Memorial Day is this weekend, and as you know, it's not just a time for vacation, but a time to reflect on and honor the brave men and women who have made the ultimate sacrifice while serving this great country of ours. Heroes who risked everything to protect our freedom. And our guest today is a man who did exactly that. Dakota Meyer is a U.S. Marine who served in Iraq and Afghanistan. In 2009, during the Battle of Ganjigal, Dakota defied orders to storm into an ambush of our guys in an effort to save his friends. He repeatedly entered a valley with more than 50 Taliban

fighters shooting at him from three different sides to bring both American and Afghan soldiers to safety. He is credited with saving 36 lives that day in acts of bravery so incomprehensible in their scope that 60 Minutes later reported on them as follows. I have never seen the like. That's what a helicopter pilot who had watched a 21-year-old Marine stave off a Taliban ambush that threatened to overrun his unit, told us. We interviewed a number of pilots who were there that day, and several of them stopped in mid-sentence, unable to finish their description of Meyer's actions that day. They just didn't have the words to describe it. Dakota was awarded the Medal of Honor, the highest honor in the military by President Obama for his bravery.

But the road forward for Dakota has not been without its challenges. He is an example of what it means to sacrifice in the name of country, to pick oneself up no matter how hard one falls, an example of what it means to be a man and a Marine. Welcome back to the show, Dakota. Thank you so much. I have been looking forward to this since the last time. Me too. Me too. I actually lived in fear to see the email come in like, Dakota wound up being busy. Dakota can't do it. I'm so happy that it actually is happening. Yeah, no, it's awesome. How are you? I'm great. I'm so great. And just more enamored with you and your, your character

than ever. You know, one of the privileges of interviewing a guy like you is I get to spend tons of time immersed in your story, you know, reading your books and just boning up on the details. And it's just breathtaking. And I know it's not always easy to go through, especially the details of a story like yours. So I'm, I'm honored that you've agreed to do it with me and my audience, especially on a day like this. So thanks again. Okay. Let's start back with little Dakota Meyer. Little baby Dakota Meyer was born to a teenage mama who didn't know all that much about how to mother a young baby. And while your dad was never really part of the picture at all, there was a man who would become critical to your life, your character development and who you would become.

And tell us about how your mom got connected with him and who he was. Yeah. I mean, you know, I don't, I don't really know how, I mean, I know it sounds weird. I don't really know the story of how they got divorced when they got divorced or anything like that. I just know that, um, you know, the, the man that I call my, my dad today, uh, he, he, I guess he adopted me at some point before they got divorced and, divorced and he was married to my mother. And then after they, you know, they, they split up or whatever happened, then I, you know, I still stayed living with my mom, but I was with my, my dad, you know, like the, I guess they call it expanded standard custody now. Like I would see him every other Wednesday and, and on the weekends and,

you know, life with my mom was chaotic growing up. Uh, I don't, I don't blame my mom for anything. Uh, my mom, I'll say it's my mom did the best that she could with me. I could not imagine having a child when I was 17. And, and, you know, I honestly, I carry a lot of guilt where I, I feel bad that, that, you know, I, I probably changed the trajectory of her life. Right. And, um,

but I was just so fortunate to have this man, you know, uh, in the books we call him big Mike, but you know, to me, he's dad and, and just a man who, you know, it's hard enough to raise your own kids, right. It's hard enough to, to, to, to show up and do and be the man that they need and, and to, to, to be that. And just to choose somebody else's responsibility is just such a testament to the man and the character that he is. Yeah, really it is. Big Mike is, he's quite a guy, um, adopted you and raised you as his own. And when she got to the point of saying, you know what, I think it's better if you just take him, he said, welcome home and, and take you. He did.

Now this is all down in, I know you're born in Columbia, Kentucky. Is that where you were living for your upbringing? Yeah. So, you know, I grew up on a farm. Uh, it's kind of in the middle between, uh, there's Columbia, Kentucky and Greensburg, Kentucky. And we, we literally live on the line of that. And I grew up on a farm, uh, with, like I said, my dad and my grandparents. And yeah, I mean, when my mom finally just said, hey, you know, you can take him. It was over the summer of, I think I started the fifth grade. I started the fifth grade living with my dad. And, you know, my mom called on there, forget that phone call. And it was just such a relief to be able to stay with my dad and be over there. And yeah, I just stayed with him from that point on.

Then did you have an ongoing relationship with your mom after that? You know, I think she kind of like disappeared for a little bit and then she dodged back into life. And, you know, I'd see her. She lived up in Louisville. And so it was obviously a long drive. And then I would, I mean, I'd go see her whenever there was time or she had time. So I'd see her, you know, on the weekend sometimes. But but, you know, she after after I moved out from being with her, I mean, as far as like I never really seen her. It was never really like a mother-son relationship from that point on. And so you become a good old Kentucky farm boy.

And Big Mike is tough in a loving way. But, I mean, I think he's sort of the guy who made a man out of you before you got to the Marines. And I love the stories about, you know, how he instilled that in you, just sort of tough love. But definitely both pieces of that were present. You know, he was tough, but he was loving. So, uh, we talked about this a little bit the last time about Tinkerbell, but what, when you look back on sort of the lessons that he, that he taught you and sort of the character development that he did of you, what jumps out? Uh, you know, my, my dad is, um, I think the best way to put it, and I know this is used a lot loosely, but my dad is unapologetically him, right?

And there's something to be said about that. My dad, you know, criticize how he lives his life. You critique that. You critique how he handles himself or whatever, presents himself or how he delivers things. But my dad lives life on his own terms. And, you know, my dad, I know one thing that he instilled in me growing up was, you know, we're not going to try to keep up with the fads or the, you know, in school and especially in a small town, you know, there's a lot of cliques and, you know, there's a lot of social statuses or, you know, your last name or, you know,

what you wear, you know, all that. I mean, it's especially growing up is, is, is as a factor of where you stand in, in the social, social status. And my dad didn't care. My dad cared about you doing the right thing. And, you know, the, the, the, the thing that I, I really just, I'm, I'm more and more aware of every single day is the honor that they had with our name, right? Like, you know, when we die, it doesn't matter what you have and it doesn't matter what you, you know, what, how much money you made and none of that stuff matters. But the last thing that people remember is, is your, is, is your last name. It's on your tombstone. And, and keeping that clean and keeping that honorable is something that, you know, my dad's always done. My dad's always, he was all about being fair.

He was all about doing what you say you're going to do. He was all about, you know, accountability. I mean, these are all, these are all factors that, that my dad instilled in me. And, and, and, you know, it wasn't something that he taught just by pointing it at you. It was something my dad taught you by the way he lived his life and the way that my grandfather lived his life and my grandmother lived her life.

And these were all things that were very important. And these were non-negotiables. These were principles that were instilled in our family that were not, these were non, you know, there, there was no give on those. So what were you like as a boy? Were you, were you a little rascal or were you, how were you? You know, I, I was, I was, I was a handful, right? I'll say this. I was never put in handcuffs. Okay. Check.

I had that going for me. Uh, you know, but I think I was your typical high school student, right? I mean, I, I played, I played sports. I was, um, you know, I was, I was always out getting into stuff. I, uh, definitely tried to, to toe the line. Um, you know, if you look, if you're not living on the edge, you're taking up too much, too much space. Right.

So, I mean, I was always into something. I was always in the pushing the limits on everything that I could. But I think that that's, you know, again, back to my dad's raising, you know, like kind of figure it out. You know, my dad, you know, he was a, he was a single dad raising me, which just is a whole other factor. Right. And, uh, and, and imagine doing that, imagine doing that when you didn't have this technology of cell phones of locations. And I, you know what I mean? I just, we had none of that. And, um, you know, just going out and riding four wheelers, living on a farm, you know, running tractors, cutting hay, like, you know, doing all these things. And, but, but doing it, you know, figuring life out on my own a little bit, having my left and right lateral limits of, you know, to be able to get through these challenges

and to be able to face these obstacles and have to think on my own and not have someone over my shoulder protecting me every single, you know, every inch of the way. And that's, yeah, I mean, so I was, I was always into something always like, but that's amazing. I mean, we just, we just interviewed Jonathan Haidt on the program height. It's spelled hate, but it's pronounced height. Um, and he's, you know, he wrote the coddling of the American mind and he was talking about how we have to stop with the helicopter parenting. We have to start raising independent thinkers and kids who understand the value in taking risks. And just know in their hearts that they can do something new because they've done it time and time again without a parent leaning over their shoulder watching them. You know, we're not doing that anymore.

And Big Mike did not need that lesson in parenting. He was living it. Yeah. I mean, I just don't think, I don't think that my dad could have done it. Right. I mean, I don't like he didn't have the capabilities to it. My dad worked, you know, 60 hours a week at his, at his, at his full-time job. And then he came home and he worked another 40 to 60 on the farm. And it, you know, my dad, that's what he did. I mean, that, that was a way of life. And, um, you know, so there was no time to, you know, it was a team effort around the house, right? Like you had to pull your weight because there was so many things that needed to get done. And, and that was just kind of how we, we lived. And, and, you know, so with that comes responsibility and it comes growing up. And, and I I'm thankful that my dad lived like that where I'm thankful that my dad, you know, that my dad instilled those values in me, because that's the difference between me and the generation that had someone helicopter piloting or, you know, helicopter parenting over them.

It taught me these critical skills to be able to think past what someone tells me to do or, or to just, you know, follow, follow the leader. It, but it's also, you're not just different from the generation that followed you. You're just different from everyone because the, you know, the vast majority of people, even a lot of Marines would not have done exactly what you did and have taken so many risks repeatedly that endangered your life. I mean, no disparagement to the Marines whatsoever. I'm just saying there's a reason you were only, I think, what, the second person to receive, the second Marine to receive the Medal of Honor since 1974. I mean, it's not that extraordinary acts of bravery hadn't preceded you. It's just that yours were really extraordinary. And so part of what's interesting to me is like, how does one raise a Dakota Meyer?

How does one build a Dakota Meyer? Like what happened in your childhood? Was it, you know, I mean, we could get totally psychological. Was it your feeling of abandonment by your biological dad or your mom? Or like, was there some benefit to being sort of shuffled around under her wing when she was going sort of from place to place? Like, was it all big Mike? Was it life on the farm? Like, do you have any insight into what made you the way you are? Well, I think, you know, I think one aspect of it is is uh is i i don't know like you know obviously obviously you know my you know my dad you know my dad kept me safe right like i by no means that

was i ever any harm but i never had anybody take up for me so i had to figure it out on my own right i mean i can remember these two guys in, uh, in elementary school. It just tortured me. Like, I mean, I, I mean, literally growing up, um, you know, especially in middle school. I mean, I, I thought Goodwill was a brand, right. I mean, I, I didn't, I didn't know. I mean, I, I mean, I literally, I grew up in a trailer park. Right. Um, and, and I, you know, so, I mean, that, I grew up in a trailer park, right? And I, you know, so, I mean, that's a, kids like that get made fun of. And, you know, you got a choice to make.

And it just, you know, you know that pain of not understanding why someone is making fun of you, especially at that age, right? Of why someone is looking down on you or why someone is, is making you feel this way. And then, and then I think that what happens is, is, you know, I go to my dad's and I watch my dad stand up for what's right. My dad, like there was, my dad was always about standing up for what's right. Right. Like you don't compromise on right. There, there is a right and there is a wrong with everything. You don't compromise right for wrong at any, at any stance. And it doesn't, it doesn't matter what the cost is and you know my grandfather was a marine and and that man was you know he he was about accountability and i just think that like i think

you add all those aspects up and then growing up on a farm the whole thing about having a farm is these living creatures come before you you know like I mean we we had cattle we had you know we had all these responsibilities and you know all that came first it didn't matter whether it was raining it didn't matter whether it was comfortable it didn't matter whether it was early it didn't matter whether it was Christmas it didn't matter whether it was your. It didn't matter whether it was Christmas. It didn't matter whether it was your birthday. They all still needed taken care of. And so I think you put all these factors together about, you know, putting others before you, even though it's animals. I mean, animals matter. I mean, animals, you know, they're, whether you're on a farm, it's your livelihood sometimes, right? And they rely on you and just growing up in these environments. And, and I think

that, you know, you turn that into, you know, not wanting other people to hurt. Right. Like I can't stand when someone else hurts. Like I can't stand when they get picked on. I can't stand, you know, I hate, I hate bullies. I hate when the, and I don't know if you call it the weaker person, right? I hate, I hate the weaker person, but when the, the, when, when, when the less fortunate or whatever it is, person gets picked on for no reason, uh, that I don't like that. And I feel like I was fortunate enough to have a big mic in my life that taught me how to stand up and that demanded that I would stand up for, for not only myself, but for, you know, for what was right. And I think that, you know, all that combined together is just something that I can empathize

with people who are hurting. And I want to help people who are hurt, who are hurting, not hurt anymore. So you're independent, you learn to take risks and deal with the consequences. You hate bullies and you were taught to do the right thing no matter the consequences. And so we're seeing it. We're kind of seeing it come together. Even if I'm sure you were not seeing the man being built while it's being built, right? You're just a kid, your kid in Kentucky, and you're sort of doing what's expected of you. And then the next thing you know, there's a guy, I think at your high school behind a little recruiting table telling you, you cannot do it. You cannot become a Marine. You don't, you don't have it. He told me, he said, you know, I mean, I didn't

even really know what the Marine Corps was. My grandfather was in the Korean War. And I mean, I never heard him talk about it. I mean, I knew I'd like seen, which I know now is an NCO sword. I mean, I'd seen that. I'd seen, you know, a little, you know, glimpses here and there, like a picture of a plane. And I never knew what it meant. Right. I didn't know what the Marine Corps was.

And I was walking through my lunchroom one day. Yeah, I walked through the lunchroom one day. And I don't know what it was. It's just, you know, I thought I was going to go to college. I mean, that's what everybody does where I'm from. Like you go to college until you either graduate or you run out of your parents' money. And then you come back home and you either work on the farm or you just get some job back in town. And that's kind of where you're at. Right. And, you know, the Marine was there and he I went up to his table and started talking to him at lunch. And just, you know, we talked a little bit and he's like, what are you going to do when you get out of high school? And I puffed my chest up and I was like, well, I'm going to play football somewhere. And he's like, yeah, that's what I would do, do too there's no way you'd ever make it as a marine

you know and and I think that I think that like for a lot of us uh that are marines or serving the military or whatever um it's about the challenge right it's about the challenge to to to to accept it and that's what the Marine did. He accepted, you know, he laid the challenge out there. I left that, that evening or that, actually I left that day to go sign up, signed up. My dad came in and, and, you know, had no clue what I was doing. My dad thought I was going to college and then, you know, now I'm going to the Marine Corps and signed up for infantry. And that was kind of it. Like I left my hometown

after finishing up the school year. And I actually spent my 17th birthday or my 18th birthday inside boot camp. Wow. Now you were, so what was that? 2006. 2006. Yeah. Because you say you were 13 when we were attacked on 9-11. Okay. So 2006, you sign up, you go. I love this from, this is from your first book, where you write, Into half as strong as you figured, simple tasks that show you are mentally weak, drill instructors who mock your attempts to look tough. It's right out of the movies, but it never stops. I never thought about it all that way. Close haircuts to strip away your old identity, like trying to kind of break you down. They're trying to break you down, humble you, get everybody even, and then build you back up. Yeah. I mean, bootcamp is kind of like when you, you know, after you're out of it and you start looking back at it, you know,

the Marine Corps has got it, got it figured out. Right. Like, you know, one of the things that I think the Marine Corps does better than any other branch is they teach the history. They teach, you know, the, they, they, so they spend the, I look at it like this, you know, it's, it's, it's 10 to 12 weeks. So let's say 12 weeks. So they spend I look at it like this. You know, it's 10 to 12 weeks. So let's say 12 weeks. So they spend the first month, you know, breaking you down, taking away your identity. And then they spend the next four weeks teaching you about the history, about the battles, about the men before you who who had this title Marine. And they build this sense of pride, a pride about that and about what the Marine Corps truly is.

And then they spend the last four weeks teaching you how to live up and how to live with honor and go out and represent and do that. And so just such a, such an incredible process transformation. I can't say that it definitely wasn't the hardest school that I've gone to while I was in the Marine Corps, but it was by far the most transforming life-changing school that I've gone to while I was in the Marine Corps, but it was by far the most transforming, life-changing school that I'd ever gone to as far as like changing up the whole dynamic of how you think about how you see things and obviously, you know, preparing you for war. Well, that's how I felt when I did my two days becoming a Marine at Camp Lejeune for TV.

Yeah, it was probably the same thing. Totally identical. I did not, however, get the tattoo in Latin on my chest. Can you tell us what you, what you opted for and why you put it in Latin? You know, so I get asked this a lot. Um, the funny story is I went in and I just, I became a sniper and I wanted to get this I'd seen this tattoo somewhere uh I don't know where and I was maybe 19 years old and I went into this I lived in Hawaii and I went to this this tattoo parlor and I said hey I want to get this tattoo on my chest it says your death is my life in Latin or no I didn't say say in Latin. I said English. And, you know, thank God for the,

the tattoo artist who looked at me and said, Hey man, like I'll do whatever you want. Right. Cause you're paying for it. But I really would not get it in English. And, um, he said, he said, why don't you get it in Latin? He's like, man, like, can you imagine? He's like, you're walking across the beach with your kids one day and says your death is my life across your chest. And I was like, I mean, at that point, I was like, I'm never having kids. You kidding me? Like, that'll never happen. And yeah, so I'm really thankful that I got that. Yeah. It's one thing if you're in Afghanistan, it's quite another, if you're in your personal life without your Marine gear on. Um, yeah. So your death is my life, which actually is not a bad message when you're staring down the Taliban. So I like that. Okay. So, so there you go. Um, and off you go, you went to Iraq and Iraq first, right. And then Afghanistan after. Yeah, I went to Iraq first. I was in Fall was in fallujah uh you know and i was part of the surge right in 2007 um we we surged all you know all the troops had a rough time yeah i mean you know look for us like the iraq deployment was pretty easy i mean you know we we took some

orders and stuff maybe a little bit small inspired but nothing like it was not crazy at all in iraq um and you know i was only there for maybe 45 days 30 to 45 days uh due to i got bit on my my right hand by a spider i had nerve damage like i was got i had two surgeries in fallujah surgical what Yeah. Yeah. Like I actually lost all the movement in my last three fingers. Um, so yeah. Can you just spend one second on that? Cause now everybody's going to be freaked out about the next spider they encounter. Yeah. I mean, I don't know what kind it was. I mean, they said something like a desert recluse. So I guess maybe it's up. I don't know. Who knows? It sounds made up, but, um, they. But they they sent me back to to Germany. And I was in Germany, like I had to go to occupational therapy to get my hands moving again.

I honestly thought I was going to get MedSept out of the Marine Corps. And I just worked on my hands the rest of the deployment being back home. And yeah, I mean, I don't even remember it. I was, we were actually in a, we were out in the house and I do remember the mission though, because we had ran this mission to a place called banana town and we were going to go out there for a couple of days and, uh, just trying to see, uh, there was, we knew there was some enemy, some enemy, uh, that they'd been, uh, freely moving out there. And so we we had gone out set up in this house and it turned into a mess right off that we only stayed there for a night because um so basically

when we come in and we we would take all these houses what we would do is we would sneak in in the middle of the night right and so they usually the families would sleep outside and so they'd be sleeping out on the ground somewhere so we'd find them we'd have like a couple guys just over watching them watching them as they sleep while we went in and like we'd search the house and we'd make sure we'd get eyes on the position we wanted and then we'd wait until they woke up and then we'd bring them inside and they had to sit with us until we left and so uh this night i remember i don't know what caused it but like there's so many dogs in iraq and uh what or afghanistan but there's just a ton of dogs and i remember the dogs barking so much that um that it woke the neighbors up and so once they seen us we had to go grab them as well and so then it woke the other neighbors up

woke the neighbors up it's still like 32 people like almost the entire village inside of this one house with us but we couldn't let them go because we were afraid they'd go tell the tell al-qaeda or whoever that was there um where we were at so we had to hold on to them until that night. And that night we just, we bailed out. But I got bit on my hand and got back to base. Like my hand was just swollen up. It was huge. I couldn't move my three fingers.

They did a surgery in Fallujah, gave me a few days to heal. It didn't heal back. Did another surgery and then they medevaced me out, uh, back home to the States. Yeah. That's, it's a problem. If you're a sniper, you need your hands, you need your fingers and they need to be in good working order. Okay. So you, you go, you get deployed again to Afghanistan and is it with the same unit? You know, the guys who we would come to know through your story in, um, forgive me on the pron is weird. How do you pronounce the town? Ganj?

Ganjigal. Ganjigal. Ganjigal. Is it the same unit that you were deployed with in Iraq? No. So I came back, went to mountain sniper school in between deployments, and I became a sniper team leader. So I actually had my own team. And we were getting ready to head back to Iraq again, like in the 2009 timeframe.

But there really wasn't much going on in Iraq at that point. We didn't even have a mission. And so I remember we were at 29 Palms and my gunny comes and says, Hey, look, we need five volunteers to go to Afghanistan. And I said, what's the mission going to be? And he said, I don't really know, but like, we just need five volunteers. So you all can either start volunteering or I'm going to start picking. And so I raised my hand, you know, I knew that was where the fight was. I mean, that's what we've been hearing. That's where we'd all hoped to go on.

And I just thought it might be an opportunity to go get in a fight. And, you know, I was right, obviously. And so I ended up going and I detached from my sniper unit and I went and attached to what's called an embedded training team. And so the mindset behind these embedded training teams are that we go over and advise the local army, the Afghan National Army, on how to do everything from logistics to weapons training to basically train them on how to build their own military up you know the the theory is is that if they can we can train them up then they can do it themselves and then they take care of their own country right but we see how that ended up and um so that was our our job and so i was gonna i was stationed on a base with four U S and 80 Afghans, um, on this base and Afghanistan. So let's talk a bit about the guys who are at the center of

this story. Um, in, in the book, you refer to doc Layton, our Coorsman and that's, that's Coorsman James Layton. Uh, that's, let's start with him. How did you, how'd you get to know him? What was he like? You know, Doc Layton, you know, look, corpsmen are the angels of the Marine Corps. I mean, these are the guys who literally put their life on the line. Yeah, they're Navy corpsmen, and they, but they're, I mean, what docs do is is second to none for Marines. I mean, these guys take care of us. They they patch us up on the battlefield. You know, and they're right there with us. Right. Their primary job is to to to to patch us up.

But like, you know, look, they're in the fight with us. And, you know, Doc Layton was such a good guy. You know, he was from California. And he just, he was from California. He had this, like, surfer attitude, this smile, this smirk he had. Very, like, introvert, but just had these one-liners. And didn't say a lot. Didn't really like, it was just laid back. Did not, did not care. You couldn't bother her. And, um, just very laid back. And he always, he always called me dude and had long hair and just,

you know, just such an incredible guy. And then there was a Sergeant Aaron Kennefic, a gunnery Sergeant Aaron Kennefic, a New Yorker. Tell us about him. Yeah. So, you know, Gunny Kennefic was like, you know, look, I'm from Kentucky. I mean, obviously, even Rob O'Neill says, you know, I kind of talk slow. And, you know, I'm from Kentucky and like we live life different than New York. And, you know, so when I first met Gunny Kinefic and he was the old man at the team, I think he was like 30 at the time, which is crazy. But, you know, he's an old man at the team. He was a Gunny.

He he had this like I called it the New York chip on his shoulder, you know, like just he had that just that attitude. Right. And just a good guy. But he always had his he always had his little sayings like, you know, all right, all right, all right. Or he was like, I mean, he just, I mean, Hey, I'll see you on the flip side. And look, me and Gunny didn't, when we first got there, like we didn't get along. Like he couldn't stand that. I mean, I, I was, I mean, I was a sniper. Right. And look, we're, we're known for, for not really caring much about how we look and looking good and looking the part we care about

doing the job and, you know, both are important, but he was more on the, what we call the flagpole side. And I was more on the field side and, and, you know, he just, he, he didn't like it. He didn't like how nasty I was, which, which, you know, I'm not saying he was wrong um but we butted heads a lot like we butted heads a lot and uh you know but but you know we it's kind of crazy how the the relationship progressed and and how close we were you know right before he got killed yeah and i know you say uh he's he had movie star good looks. He did. He could see that in the pictures. Yeah. I mean, it was like, had sort of that, the broad shoulders and the, the, the good size head and the jawline and yeah, all of that. So, uh, you were, you were ultimately in a good place together, which you write about and having a couple of close calls that worked to your advantage. Um,

Sergeant Edwin Johnson, tell us about Edwin. So, you know, Gunny Johnson, uh, Gunny Johnson. So he was on, so we were part of a 21 man team and they split that up into, you know, teams that are throughout the area of operations that we were part of. And that's why I broke down into a four man team with Kenneth picking them. And so Gunny Johnson's actually the, the, the person who replaced me that day on the mission. Gunny Johnson, such an incredible guy. Like he loved CrossFit. He was always working out just, just a jacked up guy. He had like the softest voice. Like if you've seen him, like, you're like, Oh yeah, this guy's got deep voice, but like, he just is huge guy at the soft voice and just such a loving, caring guy. the soft voice just such a loving caring guy and uh

you know it was definitely a guy that took care of marines and and just really really nice guy and this and is he the one who's from virginia he said he was from virginia by birth but was now mr oregon no no this is so this that's so there was two johnson lieutenant johnson so lieutenant johnson the next one okay yeah so yeah. So Lieutenant Johnson was Lieutenant Michael Johnson. And he's a guy in your book. You write about how he was in tremendous shape. And at sunset would muster us out for 100 pushups, 200 sit ups and 10 laps around the perimeter, which made me think avoid. This is me. Avoid Lieutenant Michael Johnson at all costs if it's sunset. Yeah, he loved CrossFit too, right? Just such a laid back guy.

We were definitely opposites, right? I mean, I was wound tight. I still probably am a little bit. And Lieutenant Johnson was just, like an example of him was that we would be going on these, these missions and, you know, Afghanistan, where we were at Northeastern Afghanistan is very, very hilly. It's very, you know, the terrain is just incredible. And so we would be going and he'd be like, Mar, Mar, like, don't,

don't you just love like the views. Right. And I, and I was like, I was always, I was in the front. I was like, ah, well, you know, sir, I I'm not really looking at the views right and i and i was like i was always i was in the front i was like ah well you know sir uh i i'm not really looking at the views i'm trying to make sure we don't get blown up and uh you know just it was just always how laid back and positive he was and just you know he was just every every patrol for for lieutenant johnson was for sure a nature hike wow and well look he's appreciating the sunset he's from o. You know, the Pacific Northwest is sort of like that. It's beautiful. They appreciate the beauty. It's nice to get to know these guys a little. You know, it's like you hear these news stories and you just hear about the awful end. And it's so much just such a better experience for everyone,

I'm sure, including their loved ones. If you can just get to know these guys a little bit and figure out what made all of you so close, what made all of you click, what, what made it such a special unit? Um, September 8th, 2009. Okay. So you are told a Tuesday, you are told that there's been some progress in meeting with, I guess, tribal leaders there and that we're going to send some guys back in to go try to have some talks. And and we decide, I guess, that we the Americans decide to send some of our our Afghan representatives, our Afghan friends to go in there. And were you guys going, especially these four, to protect them? You know, like so it's all about the optics of it.

Part of the strategy was trying to build the confidence in the Afghan National Army, obviously supported by us. That's kind of the optics of it, that piece. What had happened was there had been some tiff, and I wasn't even aware of this. We get rocketed all the time, bombed all the time.

Plus, this was another base. So we weren't even aware of it. But I guess somebody had gotten killed. And long story short, the Ganjigal people had said that they wanted to renounce themselves from the Taliban. And so this is huge, right? I mean, look, in theory, again, I like to say in theory, I say it a lot, but like in theory, you know, if they renounce themselves from the Taliban, it stops the freedom of movement from the Taliban. how you how it shouldn't play out um so what we were doing that day is is the the we were going to go in and we were just having a literally a town meeting that we do all the time we have meetings with our locals all the time and we're going to go in and have a town meeting and and

uh just go in there and see how we could support them they said they needed support they would renounce themselves from the taliban as long as we could provide some security, I'm sure they wanted, who knows what they wanted, right? Like probably a school, some roads or whatever, right? And so they just needed some support for the government and they would start supporting the government. And so that was kind of what our mission was that day. Okay, so you go and you were supposed to be one of the leading four guys, as you point out. Instead, Sergeant Aaron Kennefic, I'm sorry, Corsman. Yeah, Sergeant Edwin Johnson went in your stead. You were low man on the totem pole.

So why did that happen? Why did he replace you? You know, like, so I'll say on this patrol was the only infantryman. So let me let me let me start with that. Right. And nothing against it. But I mean, this is this was part of what we did for a living. Right. And so going in, you know, I listened to the mission brief tonight before. And part of the brief was that that there was a few pieces of it that I didn't agree with. And, you know, one of them being that, that we were going to be on, everybody was going to be on one one radio channel. Right. And,

and I'm going to say these because I think that, you know, I think it's important that these are kind of simple. I'm not trying to change up the wheel, but, or, you know, reinvent the wheel, but you know, there, there was going to be over, if I count up just off the top of my head, four or five, six, at least six or seven different moving elements on one radio channel. Imagine having six or seven different people on a phone call. I think we all know how that goes. And then I said that wasn't a good idea. And then I said another aspect was I wanted to bring the trucks in. Right. So like when they walked in, they wanted

to walk in, which to show a softer presence, but they also gave me the excuse that they wanted to go in clandestine, but you can't do that with 90 people. Um, which was, it was a dumb comment anyways. And so for me, like, I thought it made sense to bring the trucks in behind the team. So that way, if, you know, if if they got set up, then or not set up, but if they took contact or got into a gunfight, then we would have our biggest guns in the fight. Right. And there would be armor there. And, you know, it would just provide more reinforcements that we already had. We didn't want to do that either. And then the other aspect of it was, was the, was the air and like, you know, we didn't, we didn't have air direct which, which happens sometimes, but, but I just didn't think that it was a smart idea to go in here without air direct in a place that we knew we were going to take contact at. We had never, I think the other teams had gone in there

once or twice before and every time they get shot at. Right. And so because of these factors, um, they end up just taking me out of the team. Uh, did you have to stay back at base then? No. So like my job was going to be that when we drove in, they left me at the trucks, right? So you're off campus, you're not, you're not back at base, but you're off campus and you're not in the middle of the action. I'm probably a mile away. Okay. And how many of you are there in your spot? There was three of us. Okay. But the commanding officers, they're back at the base.

Yeah. Well, yeah. So the commanding officers, yeah, we're back at the base. We had a major and our first sergeant with us our team our team leaders uh they were there like the whole team uh team ceo ceo or whatever so they were with us but as far as like the army so we we were supported because in this area this was the army's area of operation so everything we did as far as our i mean everything was supported from the army as far as air as far as artillery uh as far as even quick reaction force was supplied by the army so we relied on them a lot and um yeah so all these the but but the top top commanding officers were for sure sitting on base so you're sitting there and you're you got to be a little nervous because obviously just given the circumstances and then i know somebody uh kept saying bad people looking into the

city and where these guys were going, bad place, bad people. It's low ground, which is, as you explained, not where you want to be. If you're in the military, you always want to be up on the higher ground so you can see everything and not the lower ground. God forbid somebody hits you. You can be seen very easily. And yet this is what was arranged and this is what was asked of you and they and off they go and so how long are you waiting before you realize it's an ambush who i'll never forget select that morning going in um you know so we drove in and i was in the the turret up gun uh gunny just explain that sorry dakota just explain what that is for our audience yeah so so i was in the turret so like basically the uh the armored the gun that's on top of the the humvee

right so i was i was up there i was i was manning that position uh on the way in and then uh gunny kenefic was driving lieutenant johnson was in the passenger seat uh doc layton was in the back seat and then our interpreter fazel was in the other back seat and you know like obviously this is hindsight 2020 right but like driving in i remember that morning we didn't even talk about the mission you know usually on a mission like this we're talking about checkpoints we're talking about plans and we didn't even mention it all we talked about on the way in that morning was um was home and uh all we talked about was like how, whose house we were going to first and, and how we were going to hang out and kind of, I don't know, we laid out this whole elaborate life plan of how we were going to find a way to still be together and hang out. And I look back

at it, it's like, you know, that's what we do when we're scared, right? You know, a lot of people look at service members or military as crude or as, you know, heartless. But when you, you know, in these team situations, especially small team situations that are so critical, part of getting through them is having the ultimate poker face, right? Like you can't, you know, these guys might be looking at you wondering, hey, should I be scared or not? And you don't want to ever, you know, you don't ever want to show you're scared because it might be what breaks or makes that team. And so having confidence and being able to control those emotions and staying stoic in these situations is what has to happen. And so a lot of times what we do is we just have conversations about stuff that

don't even, you know, kind of try to ignore it. Right. Um, and, uh, you know, that whole way in, you could just tell that everybody was scared. Everybody knew what was about to happen, uh, that it was not going to be good. And so we got in and parked that, that morning and it was still pitch black. And i remember we parked and and he shut the kenefic shut the truck off and lieutenant johnson i told lieutenant johnson i said hey look if anything goes bad just get to the road and i'll come get you and uh you know like so that was the plan and and kenefic said you know or not kenefic but john lieutenant johnson said he goes meyer you know what like that's what we're going to do and he goes i know you're crazy

enough to come get us and um i'll never forget kenefic got out and it was pitch black and he started walking and uh he said uh meyer i'll see you on the flip side. And, uh, you know, they all walked off into the dark and, and it was probably, you know, as they were going in, there were goat herders passing us, right? Like there were the elders, a lot of the elders were passing us. And, and like, I would get off the truck. I got on the hood of the truck and I would go down and I'd try to shake their hands and stuff, you know, just to try to have a conversation. You can tell a lot about how people view you by just a conversation, right? And a lot of these people wouldn't even talk to us. Like they just look at us now. I'll never forget. They were, they were taking their, their rosary beads or whatever it was. And they were

just like holding them and holding on. And it was just a, you just had this eerie feeling and like women and kids were just leaving like masses. And, you know, we knew that there was going to be a fight, right? They're not just leaving because, you know, it's not a coincidence. Wait, wait, wait, but let me stop you there. How did you, I mean, like I see these are signs that there's going to be a fight, but we didn't actually know because we were caught by surprise. That was part of the problem, right? So explain that. What do you mean? Well, I mean, look, I mean, this is, I'm saying like all these signs are stuff we've seen before, right? So these guys have gone in, they've left you, they're going in and you're seeing these signs and you're thinking, I have a bad feeling. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. I mean, and I, you know, before, even before this aspect of it, I took my thermals like, you know, it's a heat seeking device, right? It seeks heat, it sees heat, or senses heat. And I could see people running up the edges of the mountains. And, you know, look, they weren't going out to get their morning, you know, their morning run in. And so, you know, all these are signs that, that, that, that they're going up to their fighting positions. Right. And, and I tried to call over the radio and said, Hey, we've got guys going up the side of the mountains. And I was told to get off the radio. You're tying up the net. Right. It's like a, like a, it was like a push on me of like, Hey, you brought up that this is going to be an issue. And now you're the one tying the net up. And, and it was just like, so ignoring all the signs. So complacent is what it was. And, you know, my team was at the front of the patrol on this. This 90 man patrol. Right. You know, you're kind of walking in. I don't want to say like follow the leader, but it is kind of like follow the leader. Right.

And, you know, my team and my Afghans were up front of this patrol as they had everybody else was dispersed out to the back. And, you know, as soon as they got in there. I mean, it was it was just like all the lights in the village flipped off at the same time. And then it was just a fight like it was just a fight. Oh, my God. I can't imagine the feeling that goes through your body at that moment that you realize this whole thing has been a fight. Oh my God. I can't imagine the feeling that goes through your body at that moment that you realize this whole thing has been a setup. You're on the outside. These guys in your unit are in the inside and you must feel powerless in the moment or in something close to panic to

get in there. You explain it. what is that feeling when you realize it, the whole thing's an ambush? Well, I think, I think in the beginning, when this thing hit off, I mean, look, we've been in, we'd been in quite a few gunfights at this point, right? Like in the beginning of it, like it's always chaotic. I mean, it's just, you know, you're trying to figure out where they're at, you know, and you're trying to do all this while you're getting shot at. So like they're trying to, you know, where they're at, where you're at. What do we have to help with this? And then you just, you know, you start fighting. And so for me, I would say in the beginning.

I wasn't worried about my team. Honestly, at the beginning, I was just pissed off that I wasn't involved in the fight. Right. Like I was just mad that that I wasn mad that they were getting some and I wasn't. You know what I mean? That was probably the first reason I was mad. Obviously, I was eager to get in there. I wanted to go fight. I wanted to go get some.

I was mad my team was going, get some and I wasn't. And, uh, and then like, after I started listening to the radio traffic, then it got real. Uh, I think it was at the point that I heard Lieutenant Johnson come over the radio and he stated that, uh, that he needed to support artillery mission. And basically he gave this, it's a grid location or no, not a grid location. He gave a, a polar mission, which is basically you say where you're at, you give your location, then you give the distance and direction of where you want these rounds at. And then they they they sling rounds on that that location right and so he gave this perfect format and uh i'll never forget they said uh the the rounds are too close to the village and he said uh the village is shooting at us like i need these rounds and he what he was trying to

do is he was trying to place these rounds between him and the village kind of building a wall you know what i mean like trying to give him some some uh relief to be able to to to disperse back and get out of there and uh i'll never forget he said uh they said no it's too close to village give us another location he said if you don't give me these rounds right now, we are going to die. And the response he got back was, well, try your best. And so at that point, I knew that we had to do something. Um, I looked at Rodriguez Chavez, who was just such an incredible human being. Uh, he was a motor T guy. And I said, Hey, I said, Hey, Rod, like, like we got to go in. And so I requested four times, three or four times over the radio, uh, to go in. And my idea was,

Hey, I'm going to bring this gun truck in. And each time I was told no. And so finally, I just said, like, let's go. Well, let me just back you up. Let me back you up there. So you say, we got to get in there. And you can hear these guys on the radio saying, send us support. We need artillery support. And they needed helicopter support. And the helicopter support was promised and then not delivered.

They said, we'll be there in 15 minutes and and they didn't send it and that was overruled as i understand it back at the home base and then they said and these guys were these guys are insider and you and i mean 15 minutes has got to be an eternity when you're in their position and it happened repeatedly yeah i mean it was over i mean it was well over an hour before helicopters showed up. And that was by design. I mean, that's what's so crazy about the story. And there will be discipline that results from all of this later, but there, there had been two, as I understand it, commanding officers back at the base, making the decision not to send it that like they, they told the guys on the inside, they it'd be there in 15 minutes and then they chose not to send it.

Yeah. So what happened was, and so on that aspect of it, I mean, so part of my thing was, my problem was, is they kept saying, well, so the team went in, the overall team went in with this, you know, with this false assumption that it would be there in 15 minutes. So I do remember that in the mission, it was supposed to be on 15 minutes trip alert, right? And so let me explain what that means. So all that means is, is that the helicopter must take off within 15 minutes. And that's from Jalalabad. Jalalabad was probably a 35, 40 minute flight. I don't know exactly, but 35, 40 minute flight on top of that. And then the other aspect of it is, is there's priorities inside of, you know, of who gets air and who doesn't. Right. And so, you know, like if and what happened that day was a perfect storm. So, you know, one of the SEAL teams got into a gunfight up in the Korngold Valley.

They were going after an HVT. And so they obviously raided aircraft above us. And so part of that was justified. The other part of it that wasn't justified was there was an aspect of it where the air did break loose and was able to come help us. But then, yeah, somebody else shut it down. So at least one of those was a conscious decision not to send the helicopter support. Yes. Not to prioritize somebody else, but just not to send it. And what, what was the stated reason for that? Cause you're living this on the outside, like you're watching this happen. What was the stated reason for that? Uh, I mean, we, we, we didn't have one. I mean, no, no, nobody gave us one. I mean,

honestly, it comes down to the egos between the Marines and the, and the, and the army. Um, and, and, and I can give you a statement in a minute that was said over the radio that proves that. But, yeah, I mean, it was just clear, egotistical, typical noncommunication between two, you know, two units. I mean, this is, you know, this is what happens when, you know, these two don't communicate on the battlefield. And it happens a lot. Uh, you, you like to think there's no team rivalry when, when you're out there, you like to

think it's all about team America versus team Taliban. I guess, you know, that's, that's naive. The, the, um, request for artillery support was, was also not met. As you said, they said, you're too close to the village. Meanwhile, the village is gone. The village ran and the Taliban has taken over the homes of the village, right? I mean, it's like, what village? Yeah, well, so let me tell you where this problem came in, right? So this was a rule of engagement that Stan McChrystal put in place.

You know, Stan McChrystal put into place, it was a, again, I don't know verbatim, but about 30 to 45 days before this incident, there was a rule of engagement that was in place that stated, I can't remember the exact numbers or perimeter of how far you could not drop artillery within a village. And it stated that you couldn't drop the rounds or munitions within X amount of radius of the village unless now get this, unless you had gone through the village and cleared it commanding officers or generals writing these rules in a rule book, and then you guys are left to live it and be forced to live it. Even when you can look at the situation and say that rule should not apply here. That's why, I mean, frankly, Dakota, that's why you have commanding officers because they're not monkeys. We need thinking men out there to say, I'm not following that rule right now because the village has left. They've left the building. Well, this is the problem, right?

Rule followers are our leaders are made leaders over competent people, right? Competent people challenge policies and rules written by people who shouldn't be writing rules and policies. But rule followers don't. Rule followers follow the rules. And therefore, that is what we look for, or that is what leadership is. Because they get rid of people who are competent and people who challenge and make people have to think outside the box of what rules and regulations are. So incredibly frustrating. So you're watching all of this, the delays, the refusals, the blind adherence to rules that make no sense given the actual combat situation. And then you say, let me go in there. I mean, it's basically a send me in coach.

And the answer is no. Yeah. So we asked to go in and we're, we're told no. And so I had a Mark 19, which is a 40 millimeter grenade launcher, uh, on my up gun. And then I also had a two 40 machine gun. There's just a, another, just a gun. Right. And so finally I looked at Rod and Rodriguez Chavez and said, Hey, look, we got to go. We got to go we got to do something um and uh he's like yeah we do and so i got my afghan soldiers they jumped in their trucks and we just headed in and like as soon as we started heading in we started taking rounds i mean we started but wait wait but wait before you so you you're like kind of jumping over the part that's this is important because you were told no and then you asked again mean, you did try to follow the rule.

I did. Yeah. I requested three or four times. Yeah. You were told no. You asked a third time you were told no. And then it was really at that point that you said, I'm not listening to no anymore. I'm going. Yeah. I mean, I think, I think the last call that I said over the radio was be advised. I mean, my, my, uh, my call sign was Fox three, three. So I said, be advised Fox three, three is, uh, we were on our way in and, uh, that was it. And so we had the guys who were telling, you know, were they like, get back here, Fox three, three, like what happened there? I don't, I didn't listen. I just set my radio down. That was irrelevant at that point. So in you go.

And this is not, it's still a fighting's underway. Oh, I mean, yeah. I mean, my teammate, I could hear my, I heard as soon as we left, I heard Gunny Kinefic come over the radio and he stated that they needed a medical evacuation. And so, look, that obviously tells you somebody's been injured. and he stated that they needed a medical evacuation. And so, look, that obviously tells you somebody's been injured. And so I knew, so I always kept a Sharpie in my gear, right? So like I always kept a Sharpie in case I needed to write something or whatever, right? And I pulled that out because I knew that if I could get,

I knew with this medevac that he would have to give a 10-digit grid. And so I knew if I could get that grid, I could put it on a map and then I could figure out where they were. And, you know, everybody was stepping on him. I mean, there's tons of chaos. You got people trying to call in artillery. You got people needing help, people trying to talk where they're at. All this chaos. And he's finally, Kenneth said, get off the radio.

I've got to medivac. And so everybody shut off. And he started to give the location and stopped. So we headed on in and we took the truck on into this valley. And so as we come around this valley, it's like a, it was like a wash, right? It was like a river band that led up to this village. And as we come around this turn, they had stacked these rocks. They tried to make these rocks, put these rocks on the road to where a Humvee couldn't fit through it, right?

Like they tried to use these as like barriers. And Rodriguez Chavez, I'll never never forget he was hitting these rocks and i knew that if he ever slowed down or stopped that we were sitting ducks like they would overrun us in no time so it was a pretty pretty pretty pretty nerve-wracking situation and so as we came around went in and uh as soon as we turned right up this this this this and like I said, on the way in, there were all these people walking out and they were just wounded. I mean, they were carrying each other. It was during Ramadan as well. So none of them had been eating or drinking water during the day because of Ramadan.

And so it's just like it's a perfect combination. It's crazy hot. And all these people are wounded and just like mangled. And like, I didn't know what I was driving into. And so as we turn up this valley or we turn up this river band, it was just like there were bodies everywhere. It was just complete chaos. So you come into it and they're shooting at you and you're manning, as I understand, the

turret and fighting back with the gun, fighting back at the fire as it comes at you. And what's your main focus at that point? Honestly, all I could think about was finding my teammates. Like literally as much as I want to say that I cared about saving anybody else. Like I didn't like, I just, I had to find them. Like, I just, all I could think about was I needed to find them. I promised them that I would find them, that I would get to them. And I truly thought that, Hey, they're going to get to the road. They're waiting on me. I just need to get this truck up the road as far as I can. And, um,

and I'm going to get them out. And, uh, that was, that was my, that was my thought pattern. And I, you know, on the first trip in, like literally these people are trying to jump on the truck. Like, I, I mean, I would like my, my gun, like, you know, on top of the truck, I'm sure you can imagine, but like, you know, you can only push it down so far, right. Cause it'll hit the side of the truck. And, uh, and, and these guys were so close that my gun wouldn't even, I couldn't even shoot them. And so I would have to pull up out of the turret and I would just, I would shoot them with my M4 out of, out of the top of the turret. And, uh, the rounds were literally, it sounded like static over my head, like rounds were like, they would hit inside the turret, you know, because they had,

the turret didn't protect you much because when they had the high ground on you, they can shoot down in it. They have the angle on it. And it was just, it was so chaotic like i i was always the guy who imagined the worst case scenarios and this was worse than any worst case scenario i could ever imagine and uh i remember the first trip in we we shoved the truck up as far as we could and i hadn't heard from my team or anything and i honestly thought they maybe lost their radio or broke it and they got into a house and they're defending a house and um i remember we pulled up as far as we could in this village and uh my i feel on my my right hand i just like it just got like i know it sounds stupid but like extra wet right like it just wasn't sweat and i look over just blood just blood's everywhere and i'm like gosh i've been hit and uh i fall down in the

turret and uh i i see that i have a piece of i had a piece of shrapnel in my up in my arm and uh i wrapped it up and just got back on the gun i knew i was all right i got back on the gun we turned the truck around uh we didn't see we couldn't find anybody and at this point there were there were bodies everywhere and like a lot of them were afghan national army or soldiers and so what what i found my interpreter my interpreter got in the truck he got in the the machine gun he got on the gun up top and then i would get out and i would run and try to provide aid to these Afghan National Army soldiers. You know, I would get to them and I'd put tourniquets on them if I could. I would try to get an airway on them.

Sometimes I'd have to, like, lay next to them for a little bit because, like, I would get there and then I would start getting shot at and I'd have to fight. And what I would do is I'd bring them back and I'd put them in the trunk of the Humvee. And so we filled up the first Humvee and we left. We went back out. They dropped me off at like kind of the mouth, like where I told you the first part was when we turned back into the riverbed. So I staged there and we started building what we call a casualty collection point. Right. So it was kind of like the first safe zone.

I mean, not safe, but not, not really combatant, but like, that would be our first area. We dropped these bodies off at. So we did. And Rodriguez Chavez had to go get another, another truck because the gun was down and there was like, the truck was tore up and we were almost out of ammo. And so I went and got another truck, came back in. I jumped in that truck. We in again. And so at this time we got the Afghan soldiers to bring their, they had these like Ford Rangers. And so they would bring them in. And what I would do is I would jump out. Rod stayed, Rodriguez Chavez stayed in the driver's seat because like you didn't want to give the driver's seat up. I mean, imagine if the enemy got, got the Humvee, right. And so he's saying the driver's seat, uh, um, Faisal, the interpreter stayed on the up gun. And then I was going out and I was

just grabbing the bodies and bringing them back. And what I would do is I would feel the bed of these trucks up with the bodies. Right. And I would, I would put the dead ones on the bottom and then the ones that had a chance to live, I put them on top. And we just kept doing this. We did like three or four trips. Dakota, do you ever think, you know, with all due respect to the Afghan National Army, I'm here to find four Marines and I can't risk my life spending time getting this guy and getting this guy. Was there ever a thought, I don't have time for this and I'm not going to risk my life for these guys? No. No, because there is no prioritization when it comes to just good and evil.

And, you know, these guys were on my team. Think about what you want about them. But, you know, like I don't feel like I just lost four guys that day. I mean, I lost six, six Afghans. Right. And, uh, you know, I mean, I knew those guys as good as I knew, I knew my Marines and I cared about them too. Right. I mean, you know, uh, you know, just, they were good guys. They had families. Uh, we were just born in two different places. And so, no, I, I mean, obviously like I, I initially I went in there, you know, thinking about my Marines,

but you know, I, at the end of the day, I, I did what they would have done for me. And yeah, no, I, I, you know, I love those guys, you know, like they, we'd gone through some hard times together and, and I'll be honest with you, you know, the, the, the, look, people, the, the Afghan National Army gets a bad rap, you know, and they, and they're like, I don't know everybody else's experience. But what I'll say is my experience with the Afghan National Army, the core guys that I had, obviously there's good and bad. There's good and bad in the Marine Corps. There was good and bad when I served with. There's good and bad in the Army. There's good and bad in the Marine Corps. There's good and bad when I served with, there's good and bad in army, there's good and bad in everything.

But what I'll say is, is that the group of Afghans that I served with, I don't know that I would pick Americans over them, you know, as far as, as far as, you know, what I thought about their character. Wow. And a lot of the guys who you saved were wounded and would have died if you hadn't gotten them out of there, not to mention the respect you showed for the Afghan dead in taking their bodies back to a place of safety where they could be delivered to loved ones. So you go back in. So that was time two. You still hadn't found the Americans. And so you went back in a third

time. And at that point, had things died down at all in terms of the shooting, you know, like was the, the static, as you described it of the, of the gunfire quieting at all? Yeah. So what would happen is, is so we, we, we got a bunch of aircraft on, on station. Right. And so I think it was on my first or second, one of the times when I figured out where everybody else was, I got accountability for everybody else. I came over the radio and finally said, be advised, we have four US missing, right?

I knew that as soon as I said those words, that resources for days are allocated to us, right? Like now you don't want to, you only use those words when you need to, when it's very critical because, you know, you can't just use it just to get resources because you'll get in trouble. But, you know, they were missing.

I didn't know where they were at. Nobody knew where they were at and we needed the resources. And so when I said that, like it goes up to a level that it goes to the top, right. And so the prioritization of resources allocation comes to us. And it did. Like we had fast movers on stations, which are airplanes. We had we ended up getting two Apaches. We got four Kiowas. So, you know, you start getting these allocations of resources that are needed and to be able to recover these bodies or to be able to hopefully recover the team alive. And so and then obviously they're going to launch PJs, which is pararescue. And their their whole entire mission is to to get, you know, to get down pilots, but, you know, to recover, recover teams. And so we got a team of pjs as well and so you know we what would happen is is is while the aircraft were on station

you know the fighting would die down but then when they leave uh you know to go refuel or resupply or whatever they were there for less than five minutes because they were completely out of ammunition uh that's i mean that that, that's where the situation was. So when they would go back to resupply, you know, obviously you, you'd have, you know, they would, they would take advantage of that for sure. You went back in again after being told again, not to, um, which was a useless order at that point and prior. And as I understand it, this was the time, the third time in that you found the Marines, your fellow Marines. Well, I went in and so I think on my third time I went in and I had jumped in a truck with.

So basically at this point, you know, air was overhead. And what they would do is, is they would fly and they would say spot. Right. And so like wherever the helicopter was at that point, I knew that below them was a body. And so it was kind of like our communication to show like for them to be able to show where the terrain was just the terraces were. I mean, you know, the terrain was was was hard to see. And so they would say spot. And then what I would do is I would run over to wherever that was and I'd grab a body and I'd bring them back. Right. And, you know, because at this point, what had happened was a lot of these Afghan soldiers, they were just pretending to be dead. You know, and the only way they would show you they're alive is they'd like move their foot because they couldn't move fast enough they were getting shot at and so like the best bet for

them was to pretend like they were dead until somebody could help them right and um so i i went in and and so they called spot over on this this the northern side of the valley and it was pretty far off and you couldn't get a humvee over there so we jumped into a ford ranger we went over and uh i got out and the driver stayed in and as i i ran around the side of this like this terrace and the terrace was kind of curved you know i mean like it's easy to see all the way to the end of a straight wall right it's always easy to find the end of a straight wall but But, you know, a curved one, you can only see so far. And so as I come around, I run up on one of my literally one of my best friends, Dada Ali.

And Dada Ali was so close to me, just such an incredible Afghan, taught me a lot and uh as i bend over to pick him up he'd been shot as i've been over to pick him up he uh i mean rigor mortis had already set in so he'd been he got killed early on and as i've been over to pick him up i'm kind of like on my knee right i'm up against the terrace and like i'm on my my right knee and my left knee's up my weapon like you know when you sit down like that you don't put the barrel in the ground. So, you know, you got to protect the barrel. And so it was sitting facing up. And so as I'm reaching down, trying to get him a range I'm getting shot at.

So I'm trying to stay low. And I just feel this like, I don't know if you've ever been hit so hard in the head to where you see these like stars, like white stars. But I got hit in the back of the head. And I just I thought I didn't know. I didn't honestly I didn't know what happened. As I turn around, there's this guy standing over me with an AK-47 and he's like pointing at me to go with him. And I just remember thinking to myself, well, first off, I was mad that I'd messed up. And then second off, I just, all I could think about was I, I didn't want my family to see this on TV. Like this never goes anywhere

good. You know what I mean? Like, like like and i just i just like you're gonna kill me like that's all i could think about was like just kill me just kill me and uh when i turned my finger was sitting right on the trigger and so i had what's called a 203 grenade launcher on the bottom of my m4 uh and it's basically it's a 40 millimeter grenade when it goes off it it takes 28 meters i think think, or 32 meters, whatever. But a certain amount of turns, and then it explodes. It's literally like a grenade. It kills everything within a five-meter radius.

So when I turned, I felt my finger on the trigger, and I couldn't remember if it was even loaded. Honestly, I didn't know if it was loaded. I didn't know if it was going to go click know if it was I didn't know I didn't know if it's going to go click and then he's going to shoot me or what and so I squeezed the trigger on it and it hits him in the chest and he falls over and I I I don't remember like why I didn't or if I did or I don't remember anything about like how I got from there to I go back to Dada Lee and I'm grabbing him and I'm trying to pick him up and it's like this fight and he's like we're rolling on the ground he's choking he's like he's trying to grab my eyes and, and I can't get my gun. And, and it's like, he, he, he's got my, he's literally got, got his arm around me, a choke hold, and I'm trying to get out of it. And I'm

just like, I'm just so exhausted. And I remember like my vision just starting to like that, just like, I'm going to pass out. Like, I'm going to pass out. I don't know if it was because of, obviously I'm choking me. I don't know if it was obviously, you know, my muscles just fatigued or me freaking out. And I remember getting to this point to where like, you know, like I'm holding on obviously around my neck and I just remember him like loosening up and who knows why he loosened up his grip. Like maybe he's lost enough blood. I don't know. I don't know. And so like, I remember getting over on top of him and I just start fighting him right like I'm fighting him and like I'm hitting him and I'm trying to grab whatever I can and I get on top of him and he's on his back

and um I remember getting on top of him and finally like holding his like face down with my my forearm and I reach up and I finally I grab a. And all I do is I just start bashing this guy in the face. And, uh, I don't know, it was like three or four hits. And I just remember this look in his face and, and, and he just like had this look that he knew he was going to die. And I truly believe that when people die, like they know they're going to die. I truly, I truly believe that there's this look at the point that they know they're

gone. They're, they're, they're going to have it. I, I there's this look at the point that they know they're gone, they're going to have it. I see it when I'm, you know, as a firefighter, I see it in war. I've seen it with enemy, and I've seen it with friendlies. And he had that look. And obviously I don't think I thought about it at that moment, but I think about it all the time because he's literally the only face that I still see. And I just realized I didn't hate that guy.

Like, I don't even know him. Uh, he had a family that, that would miss him. I had a family that would miss me. Uh, there was only one way out of it. Like either he was going to die or I was going to die. He believed, he didn't believe he was wrong. He believed in his cause as much as I did. And it was just kind of crazy. Like this point that how we got there was just because we were born in two different places. And, uh, it was at that moment that I realized that, that I wasn't fighting off of hate. I was fighting off of because I loved my country. I loved my people. It was, this wasn't being done out of hate.

It was being done out of because I loved and believed in what I, my life and our country and obviously my teammates. And so I killed this guy. And it was like, at that point, my life changed forever. I took Dada Lee and put it back in the truck. And we left. And then we back in the truck and we left. And then we got in the other Humvee. And then we located the bodies just a little bit after this and went and grabbed them.

It sounds absolutely primal. It sounds like, I mean, talk about fight or flight, like you were on instinct at that point to save your life when there was when i hear you talk about it i maybe i'm wrong i feel like there's a tinge of regret i don't know i mean i don't i i don't i don't regret um no i i don't regret killing him i i just regret that it had to had to come to that um i did i mean i don't regret killing anybody um i there was no other option you did you did what was asked when you did your duty yeah i just i think it just sucks that like that it had to come to that, did it? I mean, that's the question. Did it have to come to that? You know what I mean? That's the part that sucks, right?

Nobody wins, right? Nobody wins. What was accomplished, right? Like, I understand. I understand that we get someone evil off the planet. Yeah, yeah, we did. Did we change someone evil off the planet? Yeah, we did. Did we change anything, though?

And that's the hard part of it is, did it have to come to that? I mean, for you, you're the man in the position to ask that question. You're allowed to ask that question. We're all allowed, but it's more, more meaningful coming from you. And I would just say though, to the extent I'm allowed to opine on it from my anchor chair, the answer is a hundred percent. Yes, it did. It did matter. I don't know that it was worth the blood and treasure, but it definitely did matter just because we left with our tail between our legs. Thanks to the decision of our current commander in chief didn't erase what you guys did for us

over there. I mean, you kept the homeland safe for 20 years. That, that happened. You know, we did not face another massive terrorist attack here because you guys were doing things like that over there. And that, that can't be taken away. No, I, and I, and I guess like my, my, my factor to it is, is, is it's not, you know you know, you could argue all day whether we should have been there or whether we shouldn't. Right. Like that. That is a that's a that's a look. I think that if the Taliban thought that we were going to occupy them for 20 years, they would have handed us Osama bin Laden on September 12th. Right. But but. The fact is, is that we could have done and left that country better. Like the people that we had there, the troops that we had there, the capabilities that the United States of America has.

There's no doubt in my mind that we could have truly made a difference and we could have truly left an everlasting mark and gave them some type of hope of democracy, not necessarily what we have, but something that's more fitting to what the majority of them want. Not what America wants for them, but what they want for themselves. And the mass people that live there, they want good. They want good. They want, they don't want this killing and this evilness. They don't. I don't care what anybody says. And I just think that we could have done a better job and we could have done more of a a better job and let them in a better position of hope. If if we had kept the politics out of it, we'd let these these men and women who are just incredible people who were willing to go do the nation's bidding. If we'd let them do their job and let them let them and let them have, instead of this being all about politics. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, I do. I do. And there's zero question we did not leave well, and we did not leave those

who we were partnering with well at all. And the news reflects that daily. I mean, for what it's worth on the politics front, Joe Biden's approval numbers have never recovered. They fell thanks to that debacle and they've never recovered. And so I do think Democrat or Republican here in this country, it was held against him. The country knew it was wrong and it wasn't all on him. I mean, I know you're talking not just about the withdrawal, but years beforehand and how Afghanistan was handled. Let, let me, let me pause that. We'll come back to it. Cause I, I want to get to the last phase of this battle. Um, you go back in again, again. So I guess now we're on time. Number four, what happened that time? And so that was the time. So time number four is the time that we went in and, uh, they located the bodies and, uh, you know, I'll never forget that. And they just said they, they found for you and they see four bodies. And, uh, you know, I'll never forget.

They said, well, and they just said they, they found for you and they see four bodies. Like that was how they were saying like two bodies, whatever. And so it said five bodies in this trench. And I asked them to drop a,

uh, smoke grenade. And I took off sprinting and I ran and jumped off this terrace and landed in the ditch. And I landed on top of Gunner, Sergeant Johnson. And then I went a little bit to the left and there was Doc Layton with all of his med gear out on top of Lieutenant Johnson. And then a little bit further was Gunny Kenefic and they'd all been killed. And so it was just like every everything in me was

gone at that moment I uh I remember reaching down and and uh picking I think I picked up Gunny Gunny Johnson first and Gunny was the biggest one and I picked him up threw him over my shoulders and I started to carry him out I just slipped and I fell like it was like every one. And I picked him up, threw him over my shoulders, and I started to carry him out. And I just slipped and I fell. Like it was like every bit of energy I had left, I fell flat on my face. And I got back up and the Afghan soldiers, I see them, they're right there. And they're going to grab the guys.

And I was kind of upset. I kind of got mad at them. And I said, hey, don't touch my guys. I said, I'll take them home. And Fazel came up to me and he said, no. He said, and I did. I started crying. Like, I literally, like, when I fell with Gunny Johnson, like, I literally started crying.

And I'll never forget, Fazel came up to me. He said, don't cry. You can't show this weakness. And I was, I'll never forget Fazzell came up to me. He said, don't, don't cry. You can't show this weakness. And, uh, I was like, you're right. And, uh, and he said, the Afghans want to help you get your guys out because they just watched you help get their guys out. And, uh, it was such a, uh, kind of, for me, it was like a monumental moment in my life of, you know, it's not us against them. It's just – it's good against bad.

And, you know, they helped me carry them out. We put them in the backs of these trucks. And I'll never forget, I jumped in the back of this Afghan Humvee. It was like a high back. I had Gunny, Kenneth Fick, and Lieutenant Johnson in my truck. And we left the team and we were just heading back to base. And it was on the way out, all these Afghans, the villagers, were standing at the mouth of the valley just laughing at me,

like just pointing and laughing. And, you know, we went on back and got on base. Yeah, that was kind of the end of the day. I know in the book you mentioned at that moment you're thinking, what am I going to do to them? You know, maybe I'll do something to them. And was it Faisal or somebody in the truck said, no. It's not worth it.

It's not worth it. I did. I did. I did. I did. Yeah. Who could blame you? No one would blame you for feeling that in the moment. That's what separates us from them. Yeah, that's right. That's right. But the feeling is completely human. And I mean, you know, it's Dakota, when I hear this story, I feel like you kept your promise. You were on the road. You did meet them, not in the way any of you intended, but you lived up to your word.

Yeah. I mean, it's still the biggest failure in my life. The biggest failure? Yeah. I mean, yeah. You don't get to change. You don't get to change. Just because it doesn't feel good doesn't mean you don't, you don't get to, you don't get to change it. You know what I mean? Like,

you know, it's just, it's just the facts of it. You know, like my teammates are dead and I'm not. It's like I told them when they called me to give me the award, when they said you're a hero, and I said, why don't you call my teammates and let them know how much of a hero I am. You know, this is the reality of it. And, you know, like I don't say it to feel sorry for myself because I don't feel sorry for myself. I failed. It's the biggest failure of my life, but it's also what has driven me to push myself to different limits and to still continue to- But I don't understand that.

I don't understand this. How is it your failure? How is it yours? Well, I, I, I left that morning to go in there and, and, and get them out alive. And, uh, you know, like life's pretty simple. You either get them out alive or you die trying. And if you didn't die trying where you didn't try hard enough. And that doesn't make sense. That's, that's not true. Well, I mean, naturally, here's your, your promise would be no more kept if you had died in the effort, right? I mean, you just there just would have been more bloodshed, more lives lost. Yeah, but, but, you know, I, yeah, I mean, I hear you. Like, I'm not sitting here saying that it's supposed to make sense. I know. And I know I'm not going to convince you.

I just, I know my audience doesn't want that remark to go unchallenged because we're all on your side and not a single person listening to this thinks that you failed in any way. Well, I mean, at the end of the day, though, I went in there to get them out alive. And I truly believe in my heart that on that first trip that I went in, that I might have been 50 yards from them. I truly believe that they were alive. And after I was hit, like like and the gun went down i turned around

right and uh and i you know i just i i i think that i took that into my i don't know i just don't think that i had the right to do that. Wow. Yeah. But I mean, we all live, we all have to live with their decisions, you know, and that's, that's just part of it. And again, I don't, I don't like, I don't want people to, I hate, I hate when I see people comment on this and they're like, oh, well, you know, he's just struggling. No, no, I'm not. I'm not struggling, but I'm also not going to change the narrative to feel good. Right? Like so many people try to do through life. I use this as an example to go around and teach people, right? Like, you know, serving or this is why you train or this is why, you know, you, you, you, this is why you don't, you don't go into things casually or, you know what I mean? Like I use this as good and

it is my fuel. It's my fuel to go around and tell the stories. It's my fuel to to remind people that, hey, look like, you know. That that life's hard. I wonder if you can see that, you know, that the same thing that makes you blame yourself for this is the thing that saved the lives of 13 Americans and 23 Afghans that day. Like the thing that makes you see everything as a matter of your personal responsibility is the thing that won you the Medal of Honor. And it's your burden and your blessing to bear. Yeah, it was always the hardest part of getting the medal, right? Like, you know, it was just such an oxymoron. I went against orders.

I lost my entire teammates. Like, I lost the guys I cared about. And now I'm awarded for it. And, you know, I always, and for a long time, I don't, I don't necessarily look at it like this anymore, but, you know, first off, I don't wear the medal. Uh, I don't, if, if it's not in my daughter's backpack or her, I gave it to my daughter, you know, she enjoys it way more than I ever have. And, um, I just, you know, I always felt like it was like a punishment to me. This was part of the punishment for, uh, for the failure. Wow. I mean, even under your totally ungenerous interpretation of what happened

that day, uh, ungener generous to yourself, there would be failures and there would be enormous successes. I mean, do you, do you allow yourself the, the feeling of, I don't know if it's triumph or gratitude that you were, you, you helped save the lives of so many others, dozens of others. Yeah. I mean, look, I, I, I don't, I don't know. I honestly, until you just said, I mean, I don't really know that I ever thought about it. You know, I don't know that I don't know that I don't know that I think about it. Right. Like I, I just think about, you know, I just think about the moments that, that changed my life. And, and, you know, I'll say this, you know, the man that I am today, like I, I, you know, that, that, that guy, you know,

that I came into contact with in there, you know, I feel like he, he gave me the heart that I have, right. He, he, he gave me the empathy that I have. He gave me the understanding, like, if I can find a way to connect with that man, there's no way, there's no reason we can't find a way to connect here. You know, there's no, you know, choosing to, to, to hate people and choosing to choosing hate over love is something that, that I know it sounds, it sounds so weird, but like choosing hate over love is, is, is truly a harder choice. It's like trying to frown over smile, right? It's, it's, it's, there's, there's more reasons to care about people and to have empathy towards people. And we can all, we are all more alike than we are different.

What a perspective. And from such a moment, as you described it with that Afghan man, you mentioned this led to the end of your career as a Marine, though one is never a former Marine, right? You're never a former Marine. But can you explain why? Because the stress and the trauma of what happened that day stayed with you. Yeah, I mean, I was in a bad spot. I mean, look, I'll say this. I was, I was struggling, uh, struggle for a long time. Uh, you know, just a lot of factors, right? I don't

obviously like war's war, right? Like I signed up to do that. I mean, listen, this, this is what I get. I signed up for it. Um, I knew what I was getting into. It's like a, you know, it's like a football player getting mad at getting hit. Right. Um, but, but what I didn't sign up for is the incompetency and leadership, the lack of accountability. I didn't sign up for, um, you know, I didn't sign up for that. And that was the part where I was so mad that, that, that, that, that I probably struggled with more than anything. I don't blame you. And I want to talk about that. But as I understand it, you were sent back home because you were starting to behave in reckless ways.

You were carrying this with you and acting in ways that made clear you were, I don't know if I want to say you had a death wish, but you were taking unnecessary risks to yourself. So you got sent back home and you went into a treatment program, right? For, for PTSD. And you're very open in your book about the fact that, I mean, this is amazing. Two weeks before the president of the United States called you and told you that you were being awarded the

medal of honor, you attempted to take your own life. Yeah, it was a little bit before that. But yeah, I did. I mean, yeah. Yeah, it was... You know, I just looked around at what I was doing to people. You know, and like the... I just looked around at like the worry I put on my dad. I just felt like a burden and, you know, like

I never wanted to be a burden on anybody. Like I never, I still don't. I mean, I never, if I'm not, if I'm not an asset or I'm not a value, I'm not contributing in some way. Like I don't want to be part of it. And, uh, I felt like where I was at in life at that point that, you know, that I just couldn't get my stuff together and I just, I should fix it. Right. Can you describe it, Dakota?

Like, what was it? What was going through your head? What was the pain? What was it that made you feel like a burden? Just like, you know, I just like i was evil you know like i just like the fear i could see in people's eyes you know with me like i was a monster it's just like drinking and just you know you know the thing is is and people don't talk about this much. You don't fight evil with nice people. You know what I mean? You don't fight rough and rugged people with nice people. You either got to get on their level, you either got to get on their level or, or, or you're going to get killed. You know, it's like, it's just, it's kind of like animals.

And, um, and I came back and just, I don't know, I couldn't turn it off and I was hurting and, and, uh, I didn't know what to do with it. I mean, you know, I was 21 years old and. And I just I just didn't know what to do with it. And so just turn into alcohol, which is never which is alcohol has never been known for helping anything. And and, you know, because that was part of the culture. That's how we dealt with everything in the Marine Corps before. Right. So it's just it's continued on the behaviors that I knew. And I got out and yeah, I just I just I don't know. Like I just seen there was a couple of friends that I had and I just I think it was that night that I just seen like the fear in their eyes. And and I just remember driving home and I pulled off this highway at my buddy's shop because I knew, you know, I didn't want anybody worried about me. Right. So I pulled in and I knew that he would be in because he comes into work every morning. And I just, yeah, I mean, I was I was going to do it right there.

So that way that when he came in, he would find me and then nobody had, at least nobody had to worry about me, you know. In a small miracle, you tried to use a firearm and learned after pulling the trigger, it was unloaded. Yeah, and I had shot that gun that day. Like I had shot it that day. And like, I don't know that I, I don't have too many guns that are unloaded. And so like that gun was, yeah, I stuck it to my I, I don't have too many guns that are unloaded. And so like that gun was, yeah, I stuck it to my head and I squeezed the trigger and it just like, it went click and there was no round in it. And I don't know if, you know, I, I feel like I know who did it. I don't, I don't, I don't truly know though. Like I, obviously my heart, I feel like I know, but,

but I, you know, I, yeah, I mean, again. You think someone took the bullets out, someone who cared about you? Yeah, I think somebody probably seen how I was that night and they, you know, they took the bullets out. And so I remember thanking myself after it went click. I remember thanking myself. I made a deal with myself that that day and i said if you're gonna keep living life this way then put bullets in it and get it over with like just do it you know uh don't ruin everybody else's life uh over yourself and but if you don't do it and you put the vehicle in drive you're not going to look back

and that's you know that here i am that was the before and after moment and you never found out no one ever said to you i took the bullets out like you don't you don't know i didn't honestly i didn't tell like i literally did not mention that to anyone the first person i ever told that to was bing west when he wrote my book and i just because i felt i felt so obligated to tell that piece because in these books that we came back and wrote, it looks like people are larger than life. And what wasn't talked about early on was that we all struggled. It wasn't the demons. And I felt like I couldn't talk about the battle and tell the war story without telling

the cost. Right. Well, too often we skip right past that in an attempt to honor our soldiers, our Marines. It feels like, well, why would we want to go to that place? That's the dark place of the story. But I think all of it is to your credit. I mean, all of it's to your credit to reach out to your fellow service members and say, I went through this. It's real. There's no shame in it. There's no shame. It's actually, I don't know, for lack of a better word, normal to have immense trauma and stress after something like that. And it makes me not to therapize you Dakota, but it makes me want to stop on, you know, they don't send nice men to war. You know, there, I was evil. Like you, you have to make room for the very real alternative, right?

This is cognitive behavioral therapy. Like the elephant body is saying, you're evil, you're evil. But the man riding on top of the elephant is and can manage those emotions and say to himself, no. Okay, the alternate narrative is I can behave in ways that might resemble evil if they weren't done for good reasons. You know, if I weren't sent here on a contract basis by my government to defend my country, I can behave in ways that might look awful to somebody who didn't understand the context of it. But it doesn't make me an evil man, you know,ama bin laden evil right but dakota meyer no yeah no i and i'm with you right like like i have the capability of being evil right i have the capability of being a monster um and i've experienced that and had to had to do that at

levels that a lot of people won't have to right right? And I pray that they don't ever have to. But I know I've seen it. You know, it's like it's almost like, I don't know, it's almost like, you know, like in an argument, like, you know, like the first time you get in an argument with somebody and you're like, oh, shut up. And they're like, whoa, somebody told me to shut up, right? And then it just escalates, right?

The further you get in that, like whether it goes to throwing punches or whatever, that's your new, that's the new bar standard. Right. Um, you know, I, I got to experience that, you know, for better or worse. Right. Uh, but yeah, I'm, I'm not even like, I I'm, I'm, I'm a good person. I am on the side of good. Uh, but I think that like the hard part is, is going over there and and having to live with these evil creatures. And right. Like I'm saying we're there is a lot of difference for us. Right. Like when people talk about, well, how's how's America any different than than, you know, than Russia, than what Russia is doing? Well, like like first off, let's sit down. We can have a conversation about this.

Let's talk about our troops. Let's talk about how we handle ourselves over there, right? I understand that there's a fine line in any situation between murder and self-defense, right? Or whatever it is. And literally, it's intent. It's what your intentions were. And so, you know, this is an aspect that, yeah, I agree with you. I'm not evil. Like I'm a good person, but like at that point in time at 21 years old, after, after being consumed in this and doing this over and over and over and over again, and, and literally like, you know, it's, you, you start to question, you know, you start like, you have to figure out a way to control that. And I don't think that any 21 year old, uh, most 21 year olds can't even control, uh, you know, their, their,

their lunch account in college, much less, uh, the, the emotional levels of this aspect. I mean, we have people right now complaining that they're deeply depressed and having suicidal ideations allegedly over mean tweets. I mean, it's like what you went through is the ultimate in trauma. I mean, it really is. And it doesn't make a difference just because you're a Marine. And honestly, one of the reasons why it's important for you to tell your story, you know, warts and all, is because we are, for lack of a better term, a little trigger happy in the United States, or at least we have been for the past 20 years. And as we debate, you know, just how provocative should we be toward Russia in this conflict with Ukraine and how, you know, we had Joe Biden basically saying we will go in

against China if they try to take Taiwan. Is that like, maybe, maybe we could dial back the rhetoric and be a little bit more thoughtful and cautious before we just threaten American troops are coming or to send our American troops in because you are the perfect example of how special these guys are and how we need to, we need to be really, really careful and thoughtful before we risk the lives of men and women like you. Yeah, we, yeah, we, we, yeah, we do. We do. And, just because risking our lives, but the spill factor on this is astronomical. have no people from from other countries that that have that you know they didn't do the politics they didn't you know they're not they're not the ones making these decisions to go to war either right and so you know it's a factor the humanization you know we've got to stop taking the humanization factor out of all this right and and and and yeah look there's i'm telling you there's nobody who'd be more willing to go do the nation's bidding on behalf of democracy.

More than me. And guess what? Like, look, we as much as we want to talk about the generation, the country's weak or whatever. I'll tell you this. We still have an all volunteer military. You know what I mean? We still have men and women who believe in this country and these ideas in a time right now where it's not it's not necessarily a cool thing, but who are still signing up and willing to raise their right hand to go fight on behalf of this country. No matter what the politics are, no matter what what the news wave is, there's still men and women who are doing it. Right. And we have to be we have to hold those with value. We have to really put some time and effort in to thinking about where are we sending them and what are the repercussions of this? And is it worth it? At what cost? At what cost are we going to do this? You know, I think that's what they somebody should have to show before we start sending this in. At what cost? At what cost are we going to defend? You know, are we going to defend Taiwan? At what cost are we going to help out Ukraine? Right. At what cost? Right. And as long as as long as they'll put out at what cost and what our objective in Afghanistan? Right. It just kept getting changed. The ball kept getting moved and then we're there forever. And then troops just, you know, guys just keep getting killed.

And it's like, tell us what we're doing. Tell us what we're going after. Right. Like, what is it? Like, identify the objectives. OK, once we do this, we're leaving and that's it. Right. And that's what it's got to come down to.

And we've got to be able to lay out and say the cost and let people know that. So let's flash forward a bit and we'll we'll conclude with sort of the the most recent chapter, because you get you get the call from President Obama. You're not in a great place emotionally. Love the story. We talked about this last time you were on with Rob O'Neill about how you told him you were too busy. You couldn't chat. The president of the United States is calling you. You're like, it's not a good time, sir. I actually work for a living. So can you just explain that? What happened there?

Yeah, I was busy. You know, like I was pouring concrete. I was tying steel and pouring concrete. I was actually working for my cousin. And, you know, the headquarters Marine Corps called me and said, hey, they're going to do, they need to, well, first off, they called me. I don't know why. And they just tell me they need to send somebody out to talk to me. And I was nervous, right? Like I, why would headquarters Marine Corps be contacting

me after I'm out? Yeah. It was, I thought I was in trouble. Right. I thought like I, I thought, I thought I was in trouble. Yeah. You disobeyed a bunch of orders. Who knows what this is going to be about? Yeah, I thought I was in trouble. And they fly a guy out and I meet him and he tells me, he goes, hey, look, you're going to be receiving the Medal of Honor. And I go, man, you got the wrong guy. And he said, no, no, you're going to be receiving it it's actually i guess it was the day that it was going from the secretary of defense over to the white house and his last signature was was president obama and president obama is obviously going to do the recommendation of of of whoever

it was at the time and so i i just told, I'm not going to accept it. I said, you know, why don't you all just mail it to me? And he said, no. And we kind of, we kind of went back and forth. The guy's name was Colonel Otto, just a really, really, really incredible human being, but it turned out to be a close friend. And I said, I don't want to just tell him I'm not coming. And so long story short, we go back and forth and I said, I don't want to just tell them I'm not coming. And so long story short, we go back and forth,

and I agree that I'll accept it as long as they have a ceremony at each one of my teammates' grave sites at the same time. And the Patriot Guard riders did that for me. And so long story. So then they tell you, they're like, Hey, you know, the president's going to call you. They call me on Fridays. Hey, the president's going to call you on, on Monday at 1140. We need you to be on a landline an hour prior. Yeah. You know, and I was like, I can't do that. I gotta, I gotta, I've got to work. What do you mean? I said, look,

I got a cell phone. I'm like, he can call me before work. And they're like, no, it's too early. Then I said, we can call me after work. You know, I get home about seven and they're like, what do you mean? I said, look, I got a cell phone. I'm like, he can call me before work. And they're like, no, it's too early. I said, we can call me after work. You know, I get home about seven and they're like, no, it's too late. I said, well, then he can just call me on my cell phone. I'll take my lunch break, you know, at 1140. And that way I can talk to him he could call it. And so I'm sitting at this gas station in Indiana. I was, we were pouring a slab for this school and we're sitting up there and I'm just eating these gas station, uh, this gas station food and we're sitting at the table and 1150 rolls around nothing, 12 o'clock, nothing. I'm like, well, I'm going back to work. So I start to go back to work and my phone rings and it's one of his aides or something. And she goes, I'm just so sorry that he's late. And I go, well, I got to go back to work. I'll try to answer the phone if I can, but I've got to work for a living. You all don't pay my bills. And she's like, okay. And so

a long story short, I get ready. I'm getting ready to get on a machine and my phone rings and it's unknown. And I usually don't answer those calls, but I figured that today would be the day if I should. And it comes up and he goes, uh, Dakota. And I go, yes. He goes, this is Barack Obama. And I go, Hey, what's going on, sir? You know?

And then he told me I'd be getting a, getting the medal of honor. Wow. I would be remiss if I didn't play some of that moment because I know you were going through a lot. But for the rest of us, it was quite something to watch that happen. I remember being on the air watching it, just stunned and so moved by your story. Here is a bit of the President of the United States, Barack Obama, presenting Dakota Meyer with the Medal of Honor. Watch. It's been said that where there is a brave man in the thickest of the fight, there is the post of honor. Today, we pay tribute to an American who placed himself in the thick of the fight again and again and again.

I would point out something else. Of all the Medal of Honor recipients in recent decades, Dakota is also one of the youngest. He's 23 years old, and he performed the extraordinary actions for which he is being recognized today when he was just 21 years old. Despite all this, I have to say Dakota is one of the most down-to-earth guys that you will ever meet. And because of your humble example, our kids, especially back in Columbia, Kentucky and in small towns all across America,

they'll know that no matter who you are or where you come from, you can do great things as a citizen and as a member of the American family. You certainly can. Second youngest recipient ever. Third living recipient of the Afghanistan-Iraq Wars. First living U.S. Marine to be given the honor in 38 years. And at just 22 years old for actions taken at 21, at age 21, again, 13 American lives saved, 23 Afghan lives saved before he's barely able to even have a drink. I mean, it's really extraordinary. You went on to marry Bristol Palin, Sarah Palin's daughter, and who you met, I understand, given a speech with Sarah Palin. And there was Bristol and the two of you had two daughters and ended in divorce. And I understand you and she are in a decent place right now, according to what I read.

Yeah. That was another thing for which you entirely blamed yourself, according to what I read. But you're in a good place now. Yeah, that's all good. You know, I got, I got two beautiful daughters and, and, you know, that's, that's what matters. Like my, my girls are my world. And which daughter gets to carry the medal of honor in her backpack? So, uh, so Sailor, so Sailor, she, she's my oldest. Um, you know, I, I gave it to her and, you know, she, honestly, the funny part is that she lost.

So like we went like a month, month and a half without it. We couldn't find it. And it showed back up in her backpack on the way home one day. I guess she left it at school or something. Oh, my God. I mean, on the bright side, if the teacher finds this, it's very clear who it belongs to. Yeah. I don't know that people I don't know if she let somebody borrow it or what, but yeah. That's quite the show and tell. It's like the other kids are like, look at this cool car I won at the arcade. She wears it all the time. She wears it to, when we go eat at Chili's, she wears it every time, walks in, tells people

she won it. That must be kind of awkward for you. Do they want you to tell the story? What do you do then? Most people don't know what it is. You know what I mean? Like most people, 99.9% of Americans wouldn't know what the Medal of Honor looked like.

So this reminds me a little bit of Richard Dreyfuss who won the Academy Award in the 1970s for best actor. And he keeps it in his refrigerator. But he has a different MO because he figures at some point somebody's going to ask for a drink, you know, so he can send him over there. It's just like a conversation starter. That's a good idea. So you can do some fun things with it if you want to, you know, keep it rolling when your daughter gets older. And how has fatherhood changed you and your world perspective? Because I'm sure it has.

Yeah. You know, like, so the actual, the person, so her name's Katie Kopp. She was a psychologist. They embedded them at that, you know, at that time with this, when there was like an event like this. And so she ultimately made the decision for me to come home. And, you know, for a long time home and, and, uh, you know, for a long time, I was mad at her, you know, like I, uh, I was really mad at her and, you

know, after, after having Atlee and, and, you know, things kind of fatherhood kind of, kind of catching up to me. And, you know, I just, I really appreciated her. And I called her, I called her probably nine years later, eight years later. And I just told her, I just told her like, thank you. You know, like I, I don't, I still don't agree with your decision. But I, I really do appreciate you sending me home. And, you know, fatherhood is, fatherhood is, I mean, you know, you think you know a lot about life.

Then, then, then you become a parent and then you realize that, you know, you might be a black belt in life, but you're just, uh, you know, when you have kids, you go back to being a white belt, you know, nothing. And, you know, it's changed my whole perspective, you know, like having two daughters and, and, uh, you know, I need them more than they'll ever need me. And just, just being able to, to do this, you know, I think, I think the cool part about life is now is, you know, used to, I lived life because I had nothing to lose, you know, like I, I lived life. I'd go over and fight like that. I, I, you know, I do the things that I did because I had nothing to lose. And, and now I watch what I do because I got a lot to lose.

I've got a lot to lose and my life is good. And I wake up every day and I'm just so fortunate that I get to do this again. And are you feeling better mentally, emotionally? Have you continued with therapy? You seem like you're in a much better place. And obviously from our interview with Rob and your book, I know you're doing public speaking and leadership seminars and so on. In addition to working as a firefighter, you seem to me to be doing well and to feel well, but you tell me.

Yeah, no, life's good. Like life is good. Like, I mean, I don't, yeah, I mean, I just, I mean, I, you know, I'm surrounded by great people. I get to wake up every day and I get to be part of this, you know, I get to do this. It's such an awesome, awesome life that we get to do. And, and, uh, yeah, I mean, yeah. How'd you get there? How did you get from A to B on that score? You know, cause when, when last we left the story of, of your mental wellbeing, you were

not in a good place. So how did you get that guy who drove forward in the truck and said, no looking back to this guy? Well, you know, I had to stop, I had to stop blaming the world for my problems. You know, that was the first, that was the first step of, of fixing is I had to, I had to stop walking around feeling sorry for myself and expecting, expecting the world to feel sorry for me. Um, you know, everybody's gone through something. Look, the worst day of my life is no more significant than, than the worst day of your life to you. Uh, the fact is, is that, you know, we all have a choice with these things and, and there's plenty of things out there to help us. And, and, but it's still at the end of the day, it comes down to your own choice.

It comes down to, to, to you making the decision to, to find good. And there's plenty there there's there for every bad thing you can say about this world or about your life or about anything else, there's 10 good things that you can choose to see too. And, and that, that's what it, that's what it comes down to is that aspect of it, of, of finding, whether, whether you want to find bad or you want to find good, you'll find it. And, you know, for me, it, it, it took a lot of, a lot of hard times. It took a, you know, for me, it took a lot of hard times. It took a lot of hard times and it took a lot of moments of just self-reflecting and having to face failure point that you stop being the victim, you find a way to change your perspective on you're not the victim. You're going to change what you can to change the circumstances and things will change. And that's what, you know, I had to stop thinking that the world was going to change for me. And I started to have to, you know, change for the world. I'm going to take a risk here and say that Lieutenant Johnson, Sergeant Johnson,

Sergeant Kennefic and Coorsman Layton would never have wanted you to spend your life blaming yourself, feeling awful, calling yourself evil. They would have wanted you out there enjoying yourself, having love, having your, your family until you can, as they said, see them on the flip side. Well, that was it. Right. I used to wear the bracelets on each, each wrist. Right. And, uh, of my teammates names and, you know, used to, I mean, I obviously still do like when I get to go pick my kids up, uh, you know, we, we were obviously still do. Like when I get to go pick my kids up, you know, we were a week off. When I get to walk in that school and I get to see my kids after a week and they come running down that hallway and they come screaming, Dad, you know, that you look forward to those moments. Right. Like those are those are the moments that melt your heart.

And I'll never forget one day I I reached down to go grab um sailor and when I did like all the joy that I felt was instantly gone when my eye when I laid eyes on my the the memorial bracelet and uh after that I threw him away and I said I'd never wear him again and the one thing I know for certain is that there you know any amount of joy that I lose because my teammates there's no chance they would have wanted that that's right they uh They, you know, they, they, they died so that we could all do this, right? Like they died so that I could live the life that I can. They died so you can live the life that you can. And they died so that we can all go out and live a life. And, and I just believe that any day that I don't make the most of the day and I don't enjoy it and I don't soak it up and I don't appreciate it, I'm doing nothing but spitting on their sacrifices.

You know, my obligation to them is to go out and live a life that's worthy of their sacrifices. And that's what I try to do. I know you had the opportunity to go visit Ground Zero and the site of the Twin Towers with another Marine. And when you were there, somebody, an iron worker, I guess, handed you a silver marker. And you had the chance to write on a girder. Yeah. Can you tell us what you wrote? Yeah, so this was kind of cool.

Like right after the ceremony, right after the Medal of Honor ceremony, I came to New York. And so, you know, they were giving us a tour of the World Trade Center or the new World Trade Center. And, you know, they were still building it. And I looked over at this, one of the iron workers was a Marine. And I said, hey, said hey man like i want to go up to the top and uh he said well can you climb a ladder and i was like well yeah of course and so we kind of bounced off from the tour and and uh climbed this ladder and he climbed me all the way up to the top of this thing literally i was standing on top of the floor that they were on and and it was just it was just steel going up, you know,

as like there was nothing above me. And it was such a cool moment. And, you know, I wrote FTWGA on the iron, and it stood for those who gave all. And a cool part to follow on that story is is uh after it was completed i came down and went up to the top and got out and you know you know the uh you know the the tower that's on top of it it's like the the it's on so it's on top of the world the new world trade center so i looked at it is it was another guy who was there at that time.

I don't think it was the same guy. But I asked him, I said, hey, where's the highest point on this that's signed? And he said, well, we signed the lightning rod on top. We signed it before they put it up there. And I said, well, I want to go, I want to sign it. And he said, he handed me a vest, like one of their safety harnesses. And he said, well, the only way you can get there is if you climb that ladder and it's over 300 feet tall. And so I spent the next four hours climbing the ladder all the way up.

And so I climbed all the way to the top above those lights that flash. I climbed all the way up. I got videos and pictures. And I signed the lightning rod and I put all my teammates', on the bottom of it. And I just said, you know, let this tower represent, you know, what we are and what we'll come back as you know, to any of our enemies that try to challenge us. Wow. What we are and what we'll come back as. And that's, that's where your story is now,

how you've come back after having given all. On behalf of a grateful nation, thank you for your service. Thank you for telling your story. And thank you for leading the life you have thus far. So many more great, great chapters to come. It's obvious. And we're lucky to have you. You're a national treasure. Please keep talking and please keep reaching out. And please don't ever let yourself get too low without calling because we're all here for you. No, thank you all so much. I really appreciate you. Wow. What a guy, what a man. That story is so moving. It's like, it's hard to believe we go about our days and things like that happen. And men like that are walking around and we don't think about them or

it, right? Like we, we worry about such minutia. We get ourselves worked up over such nonsense. And you've got real live men like Dakota Meyer there available to talk about his experiences and life lessons. And you haven't tapped into it. I'm so glad that he led us today. And I'm honored to be able to bring you a guy like that this Memorial Day weekend. I hope you think about him. I hope you think about him. I hope you think about those who did not survive the Battle of Ganjigal and all of our lost service personnel in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars and those that came before.

Those who died for our freedom. Right? For our freedom. Have a wonderful, wonderful weekend. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.