The Megyn Kelly Show - Should GOP Blame Trump or McConnell, and Donald vs. DeSantis, with Rich Lowry, Ric Grenell, and Mike Lawler | Ep. 433

Episode Date: November 11, 2022

Megyn Kelly is joined by Rich Lowry, editor of National Review, and Ric Grenell, former acting DNI Director, to talk about how we don't have a winner yet in the House or senate and how embarrassing that is, how the polls missed a late blue wave, the truth about whether "election denialism" or January 6 was a driving factor in the vote, Trump's involvement in the election and what he does next, "candidate quality" as an issue, whether McConnell is to blame for the GOP losses, the coming Trump vs. DeSantis war, whether Biden runs again, why Trump will likely be the GOP nominee if he runs, whether Trump will announce his candidacy for 2024 next week, and more. Then Mike Lawler, who just defeated DCCC Chair Sean Patrick Maloney, joins to talk about how he won his seat, the importance of redistricting, the issues affecting voters in his district like the economy and crime, how terrible a candidate Kathy Hochul is, and more. Finally, Megyn honors veterans and celebrates Veterans Day by looking back at some of the conversations with veterans on The Megyn Kelly Show.Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKellyTwitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at: https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow 

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Happy Friday and happy Veterans Day. We're going to have more to say about that later in a segment you do not want to miss. It is indeed Friday. Fridays are so great, aren't they? It's like, I love my job, but I still love Fridays. You know what's coming. You're going to have a great Friday night, ideally with your family, people you love or want to hang out with. Saturday, you don't have to get up at all. Usually it's so great. You have the whole weekend in front. I'm just dreaming. I'm dreaming about where we're going. It's just so good, isn't it?

No list from Abby. Every day after the show, she goes over my list with me. It's torturous. It's all the stuff that I've tried to put off that I don't want to decide on. She makes me do it. Okay. Anywho, by the way, we still don't know who won the House or the Senate, that little thing of Congress. In Arizona, 18 percent of the vote is still outstanding. Again, they're right. It's an abacus. That's how they're counting the votes. And Katie Hobbs has extended her lead over Carrie Lake, we're told, to 27,000. Mark Kelly in the Senate race, Carrie Lake and Hobbs, that's governor. Mark Kelly remains 115,000 votes ahead of Blake Masters. In Nevada, with 10% of the vote outstanding, GOP challenger Adam Laxalt is

clinging to just a 9,000 vote lead over Catherine Cortez Masto. Now, some say she's looking good to take over him based on where they think the remaining vote is coming from. He's been tweeting out. He's looking good. He doesn't think she can maintain a high enough margin. He says she needs over 65 percent of those votes and doesn't see her doing it. This read a different tweet, a different article, a different expert. You will get a different answer on Nevada in particular. Most people say Arizona's gone to the Dems, but on Nevada, so divided. In some places like certain key districts in California, less than half of the votes have been counted. Get out of the damn sun, get inside and do your jobs. I don't care how pretty it is out there. Get to work, Californians.

How is this acceptable? Some people, of course, have moved on, like former President Donald Trump, who has instead turned his focus to attacking all of the key figures in his own party. In his defense, they are also attacking him. Here to break it all down today, Rich Lowry, editor of National Review. And in a little bit, we're going to have Rick Grinnell with the Trump side of things from Rich to Rick. Rich, great to have you back. How are you doing? Good. How are you? I'm great. I'm great. So can we just isn't it absurd? I mean, California has 48 percent of the vote. Like it's as if they were surprised by the fact that we were having an election. It's it's positively third world. I mean, there's just no excuse for it. I was reading an article

yesterday trying to understand this. Why is the Arizona vote so slow in this article in a local Arizona paper saying, well, you know, you can't do Maricopa County as quickly as Miami-Dade County because it's larger. Really? I mean, just because it's like 1.5 million votes instead of 700,000 votes for something, you can't do it on election night. It's absurd. It's inexcusable. No one should put up with it. Jeb Bush should do a national tour, giving every state a tutorial on how he fixed Florida's system. And everyone should do it that way. It just shouldn't be a question. I still don't totally understand why they're so good at it in Florida. I know why they revised it. But I was saying yesterday, it doesn't make your state your

state red to follow Florida in its voting procedures, just makes it more efficient. And these guys know that they're swing states and that they should have a better system. And now on top of everything, the problems in Arizona are going to cast a massive shadow if Carrie Lake doesn't win because her opponent is the secretary of state who oversees the voting procedure. So I know people don't like election denialism, but that's one state where you do have to pause a little and say, all right, this is going to stink to the average voter. And also, I mean, she's the most likely of any of the Republican candidates to contest her results. She's not going to go quietly. She was suggesting in an interview, I think it was yesterday, that this is kind of the establishment slowing down the count so they can get the narrative out there that DeSantis did really well and hurt the MAGA candidates and she'll eventually win.

I thought she was going to win. I mean, she's extremely talented, natural politician, but she's a function of just what we saw all around the landscape. Every single Republican underperformed pretty much besides DeSantis, Kemp and a few other well-established incumbents. So, yeah, so we don't know what's happening in Arizona. Can I ask you, because some people called Arizona for the Dem, for Mark Kelly. I saw it yesterday and yet not everybody has. So is Arizona called or not? I don't think it's, I haven't seen it called. I don't think it's called. But it stands to reason, just given what we're seeing now, if Lake wins, I mean, it's going to be just barely. And the Masters theory, which I believed in, by the way, was that Lake would win by three or four points and help carry Masters over the top.

That's not going to happen. So it hasn't been called, but that's one mentally and psychologically everyone should be crossing off that list if it's still on. I think that's probably. In Nevada, you know, I just don't know. You outlined very well, just whatever, you just read different things given the source. But I am just now, I was so burned, you know, last week or two by believing in Republican optimism. I had a Republican senator insisting to me yesterday that that Laxalt, it's there for him. He's going to win. I just don't believe it. I'll believe it if it happens. But I'm assuming that's not going to turn out. Do we know what happened with the polls? I tried to get to this discussion earlier the week. I didn't manage it because we were just

tight. But do we know what happened? I know that the very last New York Times poll, the very last NBC News poll did pretty well in predicting the ultimate result. But, you know, Trafalgar's taking a lot of heat. RCP's taking a lot of heat. I think those are I mean, certainly Trafalgar's an operation that tries to forgive the word, but inflate a little bit Republican vote that he believed was being undercounted, which is why he got the 16 and the 18 elections. So right. But it seems like that methodology no longer works. So I was looking at this because one of my colleagues was hammering and I love Robert Cahaley. I am sure you've had my great and really knowledgeable guy. But one of my colleagues was hammering him for it. You know, he misled us in New Hampshire.

And I looked back yesterday at New Hampshire, at the Rio Claro average, and not so much at the average, but just to get a list of the polls. And for the last two weeks, every poll, every poll, only Trafalgar and the University of St. Anselm had a ball deck ahead by one. But every single other poll had it really tight, you know, Hassan leading by one or three points. And you just look at that naturally and you see, well, a month ago it was seven or nine. Now it's, you know, one or two. The momentum is in his direction. They don't do early vote. This is a sign of a wave, and he's going to win.

And that's what I thought. So we can blame the Republican pollster for getting a little bit more wrong than everyone else, but everyone got that one wrong. And I just think there was, there was a kind of democratic wave. There was a kind of blue wave at the end that really wasn't what, yeah, that, that wasn't picked up. And my assumption was that all the Senate races, which are really close, the usual dynamic is in an election you assume is defined by the incumbent's low standing. The undecided voters, the independents, they break at the end and they're going to break against the incumbent. That didn't happen. They broke in favor of the incumbent, at least in favor of the incumbent's party. And this is still maybe I just have trouble getting my head around this fact. That last NBC News poll, yes, showed Democratic enthusiasm, even with Republican enthusiasm. Had

some good other indicators for Democrats, but still had a lot of terrible indicators for Democrats. The most important one, Biden's approval rating in that poll is 28% among independents. 28%. That is not survival. That is not survival. And if you believe the exit polls, and there's some people say, you know, you don't because the methodology is not the best, but the samples are huge. Democrats won independence by a couple points on election day. And then in states like Pennsylvania and Arizona won them by like 19 points, 30 points. That's just hard. It's hard to fathom. So my big takeaway in the election, I don't I have various theories. I don't I don't have high

confidence. I know I know what happened, but it just seems as though the issues I was dismissive of abortion, protecting democracy, Trump were more important than I would have thought. And if there was an increment of voters that, you know, Robert Cahaley talks about Republicans who don't talk to pollsters and you don't know what they're thinking, I guess what they're thinking is that they weren't going to show up because the turnout was just much higher for Democrats than Republicans in a lot of these key states. Wow. And the independents, as you say, they normally break for the party out of power. And on Tuesday, they broke for the party in power for the most part and most relevantly in all the states that were critical for the GOP to win to gain control of the Senate and the House.

We don't know. I mean, it's crazy that it's Friday and we don't know. And there's still at least a chance it could stay blue. I mean, if the House stays blue, I don't even know what's going to happen. I feel like it's going to be full on revolt. Everyone might get fired. Everyone in the Republican Party. Yeah. So the latest breakdown I saw is they now think there are like 11 true toss ups that are really tight and no one can really tell you who's going to win. And Democrats would need to win nine out of 11. So the odds, just pure odds, you think Republicans are going to win the House. But it's going to be really narrow. And it's a massive it's a massive disappointment. You know, there's still a chance they'll win the House and possibly Senate.

Odds are against that, you know, and that's that's something winning both chambers. You know, it's better than the alternative. But this was a debacle in the scheme of things. And in the Senate seats, just so important because the the chance really just knock off a bunch of Democratic incumbents doesn't come around very often. And the Senate, you know, staggered terms of six years. It builds on itself. So you get 54 and then you have a really Republican map in 24. I mean, you could completely get to 60, right? And now that's totally out the window.

So it was bad. And there should be accountability and recriminations. But isn't it, it's so confusing this time around, because it's not clear what to go back and yell at people over. You know, like there are many factors, right? And I know we'll talk about the Trump is a factor. But as you mentioned, abortion, a much bigger factor than many thought it would be. I mean, huge in Pennsylvania. It was the number one issue ahead

of inflation. Big, big issue. And then, you know, I don't know what else was out there that was depressing. All the January 6th election denialism thing. Like I'm I realized that was a factor, but I also want to be wary. I think that like I listen to The New York Times Daily the other day, the podcast, and and it was The New York Times guys saying how it was. This is what did it. It was election denial. Is this Nate? Is this Nate? Yeah, it was Nate. It was Nate Cohn with Michael Barbaro. And it was like election denialism. Clearly, that's what did it in all these races. I don't know. You know, I see I saw the people with threats to democracy, but I also saw there were a lot of Republicans who listed that as their main issue. But they were pointing out the majority of people who said threats to democracy as their issue did vote Dem. So it was probably the Dem version of threats to democracy. that, like that people looked at the dark Brandon speech and like independents were thinking right on? Really? I mean, are we that out of touch with how nonpartisans are feeling?

Yeah. So I think I didn't get through that podcast. I listened to the beginning of it, but I was contemptuous about a month before the election. Nate Cohen wrote a piece about how there's a chance Democrats could hold the House. It's like, that's crazy. You're so out of touch, New York Times guy. And here we are, you know, the Friday after the election, there's still, you know, it's a slim chance, but there's still a chance. I think it's not, it's not so much that kind of maximalist Liz Cheney, January 6 case. I think there was a, was a broad discomfort with Republicans, not necessarily, oh, they're a threat to democracy, but just that they're too extreme, they're underprepared, they're scandal-plagued, they're chaotic. And this would, you know, Herschel Walker's not an election denier, right? I mean, he said in the

debate, which I think he performed quite well in, with Warnock, this came up, and he's like, yeah, Trump lost, that's why I'm running, which I think is a really good answer. But then there were deniers like Mastriano, who got murdered in Pennsylvania and helped defeat Oz. And then there's a real denier like Lake about them. And the election was more, again, I can't prove any of this to you with the data, but it was usually a midterm where the other side is going to get walloped, the incumbent party. It's just a pure referendum on them and on their president. And this was something more on the order of a choice. And what they were choosing from a lot of voters and perhaps especially independents was Biden, who we don't like, but a Trump Republican Party, which we also don't like. And then, hey, Mark Kelly's an interesting guy with a compelling personal story. And hey, John Fetterman, he'll be

okay. He's not great, but we have a weirdo at the top of the ticket and then a guy who lives in New Jersey in the slot for the Senate. So that's my guess. And I do – coming around to Trump, I just – he almost invariably chose the weakest candidate. And if you're – I thought there was going to be a wave and that wouldn't matter so much because it would cover the flaws of these candidates. And it turns out it wasn't. And you could go down the list. But look, let me take you back to earlier in this process, because I listen to the editors and I read everything on National Review. So I've been listening to your opinions. But if you recall,

it wasn't so long ago, let's say August, certainly, you know, certainly like late July, early August. Nobody believed that GOP was going to get the Senate. Nobody thought that. It was like, they're looking good for the House. They're going to retake the House after Dobbs. People weren't like, yeah, the wind at the backs of the Republicans, all those good numbers from the spring fell away and the numbers look really good for the Dems. And then everybody was like, oh, it'd be great if they could take the House. It wasn't until like September, mid-September that finally people were like, you know what? They're looking good for both houses. So it's not really that shocking to me that things kind of settled back

to where they had been immediately post-Dobbs. Well, this is why I think it is a little shocking. So you're absolutely right. August, Democrats have a great summer, particularly a good August. I still thought Republicans would have a good chance of taking the Senate, but it was quite uncertain. And the confidence about the Senate didn't come around until that August effect faded away. So, I mean, you had the initial Biden's in the tank, they're going to get killed.

Then you have the summer, wow, Democrats coming back. And then you had a snapback to what I thought was reality and the fundamentals and the broader conditions, you know, which is the economy is even more inflation or even more important in the polling than they were before, because gas prices are still high and, you know, things are shaking, we could experience a recession. And then crime has ascended as an issue and has overtaken abortion. Abortions faded a little bit and Democrats are over committing on it, that that that was like September and October. And it just wasn't Tuesday. Tuesday was more like August. So that's why it was such a huge surprise. Well, on the subject of Trump, of course, he's interesting as ever. Can't say take that away from him. He was all over the news in August, as you know,

the Mar-a-Lago raid. It dominated the news for about three weeks. And the Republicans numbers started to go down, you know, with these independents and Democrats started to get a little bit more enthusiastic as they always do when he's in the news. Republicans were mad. I think most Republicans, even the non-Trump lovers were like, this is BS, like we're not in support of what's happening at Mar-a-Lago. Right. But in any event, it seemed to be a net negative for the Republican party. But then he faded out of the news in a very untrumpy like way. He was quiet in the news about him was quiet for about a month. And I think that was to the Republicans advantage. And then he started getting a little loud again. And the Democrats got very loud about him. And we had Biden out there like a democracy is on the ballot. And they did sort of remember that it was better for them if they made it about him. You know, if they tried to make the election about him, as you say, instead of a referendum on Joe Biden. And he did seem to be in voters heads, the independents heads. If you look at the poll numbers on Tuesday.

Yep. He came back. You know, he had you right, he disappeared. Mar-a-Lago got so complicated legally, you know, it just, it was impossible for anyone to follow him anymore, kind of faded. Other things happened. Martha's Vineyard happened. You know, I think that was kind of the thing that the big punctuation mark on the Mar-a-Lago news cycle. And then DeSantis says the migrant thing and it just shifts and we've all forgotten about Mar-a-Lago. And then he comes back, you know, you can't blame him for doing rallies, but I think the teasing the presidential run and actually having, you know, Hannity the other night, Friday night, I forget, it all runs together,

you know, thought he was literally going to announce, maybe it wasn't over the weekend because it wouldn't have been on, but Friday or something, he's like, he's going to announce, there's going to be a big announcement at this rally. I forget where it was in Pennsylvania. And it was only an announcement that he's going to have an announcement nextich, the attorney general, if he would have won the nomination, he probably would have won. McCormick in Pennsylvania, if he'd beaten Oz, and that was like a 0.1% race, he would have beaten Fetterman. A congressman would have beaten Warnock rather than Herschel. So Trump has his fingerprints all over the poor candidate selection, I think. Okay. Let me read to you from this piece today that was, it's by Seamus Brennan. And it's called The Absurdity of the Blamed Trump Campaign. It was linked on Real Clear this morning.

And he, the piece is entitled The Absurdity of the Blamed Trump Campaign. And it's interesting to read, you know, an alternate viewpoint. Well, here's what he says. Many Trump candidates, including J.D. Vance, Ted Budd, North Carolina, and almost certainly Carrie Lake and Adam Laxalt, potentially Blake Masters, and possibly after the runoff, Herschel Walker, will have won their races in highly competitive swing stakes, despite most of them being outspent by tens of millions of dollars. Where Republican candidates faltered, it was not just those who were chosen by trump numerous strong house candidates handpicked by kevin mccarthy lost races that the consultant

class had expected them to win including gizli vega running against abigail spamberger in virginia rhode island republican alan fung myra flores cassie garcia on the texas border and many others and then um goes on to point this out, that Trump did not actually endorse some of these candidates until they had already announced. He says Trump's endorsement of Doug Mastriano, the disastrous gubernatorial candidate for the GOP in Pennsylvania, did not come until Mastriano had the nomination already all but secured. He didn't really push Mastriano on Pennsylvania primary voters. The same was true in New Hampshire, where Trump did not endorse Don Bolduc until after he had already won the primary.

So that's the other side, right? Are we being too hard on Trump? Yeah, I think that there's fair and sound points in that. Look, I mean, it was a disappointment up and down the ballot. Democrats did really well in state legislatures, right, where we didn't see any of these MAGA versus non-MAGA fights. But the folks who are at the top of the ticket matter. And where Trump could choose, he chose poorly. J.D., I think, is a bit of an exception because he was the MAGA candidate who was really one of Trump's endorsement, who was actually the best candidate in that field,

at least among the other potential alternatives. Josh Mandel was just terrible, just absolutely terrible. And then there was a businessman who was briefly running ahead, who was also terrible, just absolutely terrible. And then there was a businessman who was briefly running ahead. It was also terrible. When you look at the debate, you think, oh, J.D.'s the normal one, because he's good, he's rational, he knows what he's talking about. So that was an exception. But it's true.

The other thing is, if I could just spend one second on J.D. I've spent a lot of time with him. I did a long piece on him for NBC. I interviewed all his family members, was out there with him in Ohio, he and his wife, and so on. His story is so compelling. Hillbilly Elegy is a must read. It will break your heart. It will make you cry.

It will make you stand and cheer for him. The amount of stuff that that guy's overcome in his life, to wind up at Yale Law School, to wind up working for Peter Thiel, to go back to Ohio, back to his home, try to help his local community. I know he had to say Trumpy like things to get the, you know, the primary through the primary and so on. But like my impression way over here is J.D. Vance is a good man. He's had a lot of struggles in his life and he did what he needed to do to get elected. And I only needed some people. But I think anybody who spends a long time looking at J.D. Vance sees a good person. I really do. Yeah. So this this is what I want to pick up on from from that poll thread is he did what he needed to do to win that nomination. And I have a lot of time for that. I mean,

you're an ambitious person. You think there's a good reason for you to be in the Senate. You're going to do good things with it. And Donald Trump, you know, the endorsement of one man can make the difference whether you're there or not. You're going to try to get the endorsement of that one man, right? And almost everyone tried to do it, right? Even the more non-MAGA candidates like, you know, Pennsylvania, David McCormick was trying to get it. But this is where I think the biggest problem comes with Trump. And it's certainly true is that piece picked up by RCP notes, you know, Mastriano was going to win one way or the other. Baldock was going to win one way or the other. Trump kind of came in, was getting on the train late. But he created this environment where people are really ginned up about the election, where stop the steal is sort of a matter of whether you believe it or not makes you a heretic if you don't believe it. He did that. And if he hadn't told untruth about the election, if you weren't obsessed about it, you'd have a primary electorate that was less of those things

as well. So he's created, I think, an unhealthy environment for the party in general. I heard you talking about a step before that, and I've read this elsewhere, too, where in a way, Trump kind of chased a lot of I don't know what you're going to call normal Republicans. They're not really establishment or whatever mainstream Republicans out of running in the in the first place. Like there were some obvious next choices for Senate in places like Pennsylvania, like Arizona, like Georgia. And a lot of these like really beloved Republicans who could have run were like, I'm out of here. I'm not doing it. I know I'm not ready to kiss the ring. And I know exactly what that's going to mean for me. Yeah. So a great example, Doug Ducey in Arizona, successful two term governor, one by double digits, his reelection would have won in the Senate in a run. I mean, it wouldn't even be an issue. You could put that one in the

Republican column and didn't run because he's he's been governor. He's not going to grovel in front of, you know, to Trump. In fact, In fact, he had this contention with Trump over certifying the election. So he's just not going to do it. He's just not. So your first tier guy, he's not even consideration. So then you get an argument over second tier guys. Is Brnovich better or is Blake Masters better? I would argue Brnovich is better. So I would kind of characterize Masters as the third tier in that race.

And that's the guy Trump puts over the top. And that was true in a lot of other states. Pat Toomey, you know, he's been in Congress and the Senate for a while now. Maybe just time for him to do something else personally. He would have left regardless. You know, but he had counties in Pennsylvania, Republican county groups denouncing him, you know, in resolutions. If he had any inkling that he's going to run again, he had to worry about whether he's going to win a nomination. And again, he just wouldn't have been an issue. I mean, he would have had a five-point race or something, but he would have stopped Fetterman. So again, I just think Trump, he won in 2016 against a lot

of expectations, including mine. He did a lot of good things, three Supreme Court justices, other things. Then he lost a winnable race in 2022. And then he took the party down a rabbit hole that led nowhere, led to lots of futility, led to actual bloodshed on January 6. And it's just time for the party to just say, they don't need to be a never-Trumper. They don't need to have my view of them. They just say thanks sir you know you did a lot we appreciate it now we're going to build on what you did you know with with someone else that would seem to me you know the rational alternative it seemed to me so since november 2020 but you know i i've been wrong a lot and things that i thought made sense turned out not to make sense not to happen so we'll see well it really is it's like you fall into a relationship with somebody.

You get married, you actually have kids and then things get really toxic and you realize this is no longer good for me. It doesn't mean it wasn't good. You know, you've got your three beautiful children. You're not sorry about the union and how well it worked out. But in many relationships, there comes a time when you realize it really is time to move on. And that's what a lot of the Republican Party is saying now, even even party faithful to Donald Trump are saying that. Can we talk for a minute about McConnell? Because some of Trump's defenders, again, we're going to have one on the program in just a little bit, Rick Grinnell, who I love. But a lot of Trump's defenders are like, can we just stop blaming

Trump, who who worked very hard to get a lot of these people elected who know he did not tap into his hundred million dollar war chest. But he raised a ton of money for the candidates who ran and won this past cycle. And he did tons of rallies and he gave of himself and he's not a young man and he was out there working it. And Mitch McConnell sat over there in the Senate and rather than being helpful to a lot of these people, just was like candidate quality. And they felt that undermined candidates like Blake Masters and maybe J.D. Vance, too. And, you know, we could go down the list, Oz in Pennsylvania, and that he also spent nine million dollars in Alaska, where Lisa Murkowski didn't get the republican primary nomination so she ran she's running as an independent and uh they and the more trumpy republican running out there was not to mcconnell's liking so he spent all this money to help get uh lisa murkowski re-elected who you know hit trump trump fans might call her a rhino um i mean she's obviously much more of a squish than like a ted cruz uh and they're mad like they're saying, why would anybody spend that money on Blake Masters or on Adam Laxalt? You know, races that we knew this, the whole thing was going to come down to.

Yeah. So no one's judgment is flawless. And, you know, McConnell, the problem there, overly conventional, right? And overly concerned with protecting incumbents no matter what. That accounts for the millions spent on Lisa Murkowski. right and uh overly concerned with protecting incumbents no matter what you know that accounts for the millions spent on lisa mckowski but that said i mean he he raised i think it's you know hundreds of millions of dollars literally it might might be the most money raised by any person or entity in a midterm ever i believe and there's some choices that i wondered about at the

time i was told about an internal poll that had balde, turns out it was a BS poll, but that had Baldek down like two, you know, two weeks before the election. And the very same day, McConnell's SLF, his group, pulled out of New Hampshire. Why are they doing that? You know, is it just out of spite? Is it just a bad judgment? Turned out it was the right call, right? Because they weren't going to win New Hampshire. And that was plowed into Pennsylvania, where it was close. How how do you know maybe if you take that nine million that he gave in the alaska race and gave it to bolduc new hampshire would have been tighter or he would have won yeah i mean i just don't think nothing was saving boldic if he was losing by 10 blake masters might might have been more spite you know becauseD. was critical of the establishment, but then, you know,

took, called Mitch McConnell, talked to Mitch McConnell. Masters didn't play that game. So I think you can say that was spiteful. They still should have been in Arizona. But, you know, they still spent massive money on all of these candidates, including J.D. You know, I don't know what the SLF contribution specifically was in Ohio, but there's $30 million spent on J.D. You know, I don't know what the S.L.F. contribution specifically was in Ohio, but there's $30 million spent on J.D.'s behalf from the establishment type groups that he was excoriating. And if J.D. had been stronger at the outset, you could spend that money, maybe spend some of that on Paul Decker. But they needed the way like a establishment figure

like mcconnell thinks we want certainty for a majority that's what we want if we're going to spend 100 million dollars and know that we uh can get 51 we're gonna do that rather than raising you know 140 million sprinkling around on kind of stretch seats so that that mindset could be flawed it's not necessarily right in every, but that's that's what they're thinking. So, yeah, you can you can ding McConnell on various things. But I don't in terms of the overall environment that hurt Republicans, Trump, although not wholly responsible for it by any means, he's certainly, in my view, more responsible for it than McConnell was. The independents who were not absolutely 100 percent

disgusted with Biden, the ones who were like, I'm mildly displeased with that guy, voted for Republicans. And but they didn't vote for the Trump Republicans. And that's I'll get to that in a minute. But that was a that was a critical problem for the GOP. They needed to get all the people who were dissatisfied with Biden to vote Republican up and down the line. And those were the ticket splitters who were like, nope, I'll go for like the ones who seem normal to me. But the ones who are Trump adjacent, that's a bridge too far. Stand by and the Trump tweets that are coming out. Like, I can't even keep track of them. They're coming out so fast and furiously right now. Like, he's on, I call it a tweet, but it's a quote, truth. It's a truth.

He can't stop himself. I'm trying to get him in front of me. I don't know where they went. But he's, first he's going off on the Murdochs and all Murdoch-owned companies. I'll just give you a flavor. I know you've heard it, but our audience may not have. News Corp, which is Fox, The Wall Street Journal and the no longer great in here post is all in for Governor Ron DeSanctimonious, an average Republican governor with great public relations who didn't have to close up his state, but did, unlike other

Republican governors whose overall numbers for a Republican were just average middle of the pack, including covid, and who has the advantage of sunshine where people from badly run states up north would go no matter who the governor was, just like I did. Then a long paragraph, which I'll spare you, but it's basically saying that Ron came to him and bent the knee to get Trump's help. And when he was running for Congress in 2017, he was politically dead, losing in a landscape to a very good agriculture commissioner, Adam Putnam, who was loaded with cash and great poll numbers. Ron had low approval, bad polls and no money. But he said if I would endorse him, he could win. Then goes on to explain how that's exactly what happened.

And then I fixed his campaign when he was running for governor, which had completely fallen apart. I stopped his election from being stolen. And now and now Ron DeSanctimonious is playing games. The fake news asks him if he's going to run if President Trump runs. And he says, I'm only focused on the governor's race. I'm not looking into the future. Well, in terms of loyalty and class, that's not really the right answer. That's kind of amusing. I've got to give him points for being amusing. And then basically just says, you know, make America great again. Me, me, me, me, me. So far as we know, he's going full steam ahead with his announcement on Tuesday, right? Tuesday the fifth is Tuesday the 15th. Yeah, Tuesday the 15th, which knowing Trump, maybe it's not even an election announcement. Maybe it's just some big tease about how he's going to do another benefit for veterans or

something. I have no idea. He hasn't specifically said what the topic is. But what are we to make of the nonstop tweeting? He attacked Governor Youngkin as well today. He said his name sounds Chinese. I mean, I can't that that happened. fixes something and it came out young space kin and he's like oh that's funny i'll make a chinese joke or whether he did it deliberately who knows so he's he's obviously you know not a great state he's he's angry um the the the truth about desantis is both obviously a warning that uh trump will do everything possible to destroy him if he gets in the race and will throw out, you know, as as as Trump's want. And that's worked for him over the years. Just tons of allegations, some of which fabricated the idea he sent the FBI down to stop the election from being sold from DeSantis is crazy. But DeSantis, eventually, you will have to address it. I mean, eventually you will have to address it i mean he doesn't

have to address it now i just say well i need to be inaugurated i'm focused on um you know our agenda and the next term of the legislature next session of the legislature or whatever but eventually if he gets in this is what it'll be it'll be a hail of fist uh from trump and he'll he'll have to figure out how to deal with it but it it's at the same time as a warning what's to come. It's also a sign of weakness, right? This is not this someone who's afraid, right? And is eager to keep DeSantis out because he's afraid it will happen, clearly, if he gets in. And at this juncture in nomination battles, very often everything we think is wrong, right?

We think, oh, it's going to be Trump, DeSantis. You know, who knows? It ended up being Yunkin Pompeo, for all we know. But DeSantis, his stature in the party grew a huge way on Tuesday night. You know, winning by 20 points was amazing enough. And to do it when everyone else is losing just puts it in stark relief. I was talking to a Republican senator, the same one who was trying to convince me about Nevada,

just saying his state, clearly if you took a poll now, DeSantis for 2024, DeSantis would be 20 points higher than he was on Monday. So Trump knows that, Trump feels that, and he's trying to grapple with it. I mean, the thing about DeSantis is he hasn't yet been really tested in the way we've seen Trump tested. Right. He hasn't we haven't seen him in a debate stage. I mean, Charlie Crist, please. I mean, my plant could beat him in a debate. So, you know, I feel like DeSantis is far less tested than Trump has been in terms of, you know, what you're getting when you get Donald Trump.

So I don't know. Like, I don't know what to expect. I don't know DeSantis enough. I have to be honest. Like, I feel a little uncomfortable with how sycophantic everyone in the right wing is sounding about him. Can we like just wait and let him see more? You know, like, my God, even the press is like sending out their selfies of their picture with him. I'm like, could you just at least pretend that there's an arm's length there? I just, it's making me a little uncomfortable. Yeah, I just literally, as I was, I flew down to Florida today just because of the sunshine. Nothing to do with the sun, just the sunshine. But I checked my email. I got playing an old gray beard who's been around National Review for decades. Emailed me, he's like, Trump, you know,

what he's done is unforgivable. But counseling you, Rich, don't, what he's done is unforgivable. But counseling you, Rich, don't jump all in on DeSantis yet. Let it play out. And so it's exactly the same point. Just the jump from, even though DeSantis has a major national profile now, the jump from performing on a state stage

to a national stage is huge, is huge. And performing is, you underline that word, right? Trump won in 16 16 because he was such a fantastic performer. Obama, same thing, you know, a performer, you know, you need to light people up. The only exception is Biden. And that was unusual circumstances. Otherwise, you need that. Yeah, you need the charisma. And DeSantis is naturally an introverted man. And, you know, he's obviously succeeded hugely despite that, which is not a natural quality for a politician, but it'll be tested. It'll be tested in a way. It just does it to everyone. The presidential politics, the pressure cooker, it exposes you. And whatever his flaws are, and he has some that we're aware of, some we're not aware of, we will learn. That's the way it always works.

This is the debate we've been having on an ongoing basis on whether DeSantis or any other man or woman can get past the 800-pound gorilla. You know, if the gorilla says, I'm in on Tuesday, see if you can get by me, Can anyone, and let's say DeSantis does, let's say there are enough angry MAGA core faithful out there like, you know, I love Trump, but I like winning more. And I think DeSantis is going to get us, you know, to the promised land. Aren't there enough like Trump faithful who could be? Who will ruin the whole thing? These are big questions. So I've tended, you know, followed what you've said about Trump's strength of the primary and I tended to agree with it. But I think now, you know, he's, he's, he's less of a gorilla and more of an orangutan. Orangutans are still big creatures. They have

enormous strong arms. They can hurt you. You don't want to get in a fight with an orangutan orangutan are still big creatures they have enormous strong arms they can hurt you you don't want to get in a fight with an orangutan but it's a little less formidable than than a gorilla so i think trump is diminished um at least for now i thought he's been diminished before and he's always bounced right back so maybe bounce right back after this one too but i this does feel um feel feel different so but i don't discount trump at all and you know we've heard from the elites you know we've heard some from penny, we've heard from some more elected politicians than I would have thought. Winsome Sears down in, Lieutenant Governor in Virginia said, you know, just the other day, she's not going to support him. But we haven't heard from the voters yet. We haven't even seen polling. And they're the ones who drove the Trump phenomenon fundamentally in

16. They're the ones that have made every single Republican afraid of Trump. It's not Trump so much, although obviously, as we're seeing with the census, he'll throw anything at you. But it's the fear of what the voters will do to you if you're on the wrong side of Trump. And that fear is still there for understandable reasons. So we don't know how the voters are processing all this. Yeah, we're taking calls every day. And it's obviously just very anecdotal. But it's fascinating to listen to even Trump diehards calling in saying

I'm ready for new blood. And I'm mad about what was done in this election. But then also Trump faithful saying it's not DeSantis his turn. You know, it's just not his turn. He needs to wait. The only reason he exists politically is because of Trump and kind of agreeing with Trump, you know, that's kind of rude, or however he put it in in that piece it's not the night that is not the right answer as trump said right all right let's the answer from desantis that's let's switch over to biden for a minute because um he gave another press conference the other day i mean it was just like he was flubbing his words he was saying that that the Russians were pulling out of Fallujah. No, no. OK, fine. He's our president. We also have Senator Fetterman, just in case in case you were keeping track. Oh, here's a moment of levity. This is what we need right now. Rich, before you go on your cruise, I'll tell the viewers about that a second. Kamala Harris reacts to the big win as follows. You did it, Joe. Couldn't help myself.

Oh, my God. Good luck with that, Democrats. Good luck with that. Because I know that everybody's like, OK, now Joe Biden is not going to withdraw. Now he's got a runway for a second election here as president. But really, because he's not getting any younger and the word search and all? He dodged a bullet. He's exhilarated. But the fundamentals are still there. It would be so reckless, just for their own political purposes, for Democrats looking at Kamala, okay, maybe Joe's looking more vigorous than we thought. But he could have a terrible fall or something in the midst of for Joe and his family, but terrible for the country if something happens to him. We have a president die in office. It's wrong. He shouldn't do it. I still believe my odds of him running have gone up after Tuesday night because I thought if they got shellacked Wednesday morning, everyone would be saying, every know, it just looks so great. Maybe it's time for new blood. They're not saying that now. But he's still a really old guy. And I just think when they sit down, Jill and Joe and whoever else is really in the circle, they're gonna say this is not you're not up for it. You shouldn't do it. That is still my belief. But we'll see. I mean, it gets more precarious every day. I realize politically he's been shorn up, but again, cognitively he hasn't. Here's just an example of what we saw the other day.

Sot eight. You know, I just, I just found it interesting that Biden's being a pop of a pop, a cop, Biden's being extremist. Oh God. There were a couple of moments there where you can see the interpreter, like the sign language woman on the side, frozen, like, I got nothing. Yeah, anyone, anyone, that's going to be the next four years if he gets reelected. Yeah. And we talked about this before you're ahead of the curve being willing to talk about this. Forgetting is not forgetting names, stumbling on your words, age not concerning it's the

confusion it's the confusion and i would say the gate the way he walks that that are really concerning and a sign something else is going on besides just aging who knows you know we should resist um a diagnosis from from afar but not knowing, you know, congressman passed away, confusing how his own son, you know, Siri experience. Right. It's not something you mess up. How his son, how and where his son passed away. Those are really bad sides.

Saying he got the student loan, quote, forgiveness passed by two votes, something he did by executive fiat, which never was subjected to a vote. And by the way, it's just been overturned by a court like that. That's something you really should remember. Yep. Yep. Yeah. And again, it's just confusion. Well, what about the Democrats? Because one of the things he was asked was, what are you going to do differently? I understand you had a good day, but 70 percent of the country is unhappy with the direction and many, the vast majority are angry over the situation they've been placed in economically. So what are you going to do differently? And he literally said nothing, nothing. You're just going to sit back and enjoy the effects of my policies thus far and then you're all going to come over. So, I mean, if that's true. What does that portend for 2024? Yeah, I mean, they're really the we're talking about this the other day on our podcast, the editors potentially. I mean, this is a big disappointment for Republicans. It's a shame to leave seats on the table.

But Republicans take a lesson that we need to be serious about governing. We need to have an agenda. We need to be more normal. I don't necessarily like that that word, but seem less threatening and less unsteady to voters. If Republicans really take that lesson on board and act on it, something good would have come from this disappointment. Whereas the Democrats, who are deeply unpopular and sort of threaded the needle and managed to dodge a bullet this time, are going to learn nothing from it. And even if it had been a shellac, I'm not sure what they would have learned from it. They're

so fixed now in their ideological beliefs on the border. I mean, they basically just believe anyone who's an asylum seeker, no matter how bogus, should be able to come to the country and stay, right? That's what they believe. The climate, you know, it's a climate emergency. So it doesn't matter what how high gas prices are. You know, we'll kind of flail around a little bit to strategic reserve and lobbying size. But otherwise, we're not we're not doing any of our own drilling. They're not going to change on that. And they'll be forced to change somewhat if Republicans take the House on spending. But they're just dead set on that. And they'll probably be woker in 24 than

they are now, just because that's natural progression. And they've learned a lesson. Even though the exit poll showed 50% of the voters said, we do not like the direction we are going on this trans education, sort of social engineering stuff. And only 22% said we like the direction. So ignore them too, at your own peril. I got to run, Rich said we're we like the direction so ignore them too at your own peril i gotta run rich you're going on the national review cruise that's a tough ticket to get i i one of these years i'll join you guys it'll be super fun thanks megan all right enjoy the caribbean uh coming up one bright spot for the gop mike lawler the guy who knocked out the head of the democratic congressional campaign committee that guy was so worried about getting other Mike Lawler, the guy who knocked out the head of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee.

That guy was so worried about getting other Democrats elected, he forgot to think of himself. Well, the new Republican congressman from Rockland County is here next. In one of the biggest victories for the Republicans this week, New York State Assemblyman Mike Lawler, unseated Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee Chairman Sean Patrick Maloney. Mike joins me now. And by the way, later, we're going to take your calls again. Please get on the line. I'd love to hear from you on Trump, DeSantis, McConnell and more. Who do you think is to blame for the disappointing results compared to what people were expecting? If the GOP wins the House, and certainly if they manage to eke out the Senate, it will be considered a victory by most on Team Red.

But I'd love to know your thoughts. So call me, 833-44-MEGYN. That's 833-446-3496. Congressman Mike Lawler, welcome. Thanks for having me, Megan. How are you? Yes, Congressman-elect. I'm great. I'm great. I'm so happy for you because I love Rockland County. Thanks for having me, Megan. How are you? every summer growing up. And so, you know, had I remained in that region, you would be my new congressman. That's it. It's a great community.

I'm born and raised here. My family's been here over 100 years. I love Rockland County. It's a great place. So what do you do in turning it red? How did you achieve the unachievable in New York State? Well, I think there were a number of factors here. First and foremost, the redistricting process itself. Back in January of this year, Sean Patrick Maloney, in his role as chair of the DCCC, sent a memo to state Democrats demanding that they gerrymander New York's congressional districts. And they did. And ultimately, a Democrat-appointed Court of Appe appeals ruled that it was unconstitutional and gerrymandered and threw them out and then appointed a special master who drew a fair set of maps. And as we saw on Tuesday, we picked up four seats, bringing our total to 11 Republicans going down to Washington come January. So, you know, I think redistricting played a major factor. On top of that, when the

new map came out, Sean Patrick Maloney decided rather than running in the 18th, which he currently represents, that he would run in the 17th, in part because he lives in Putnam County and Putnam County got brought into the 17th. The problem was 75% of his current district is in the newly drawn 18th. So he only represented about 25% of the newly drawn 17th district. And he pushed Mondaire Jones, the first openly gay black man out of Congress to do it. And I think that did not go over well with many Democrats and progressives in the district. And I was coming out of Rockland, which is 42% of the newly drawn district. So I had a pretty good base of support in Rockland County. And I represent 20% of the

district in the state assembly currently. So he didn't have that kind of built in advantage. On top of that, then you look at the issues and what was going on. Democrats control everything in Washington, Albany and New York City for the first time ever in our nation's history. And they created an absolute mess of 41 year record high on inflation, surging crime, skyrocketing energy prices, a porous southern border, parents being labeled domestic terrorists for daring to ask questions about their children's education. And I think voters across this district especially were very frustrated and wanted to see balance and common sense restored at every level of government. And so I think that played a major role as well. And then finally,

in his capacity as chair of the DCCC, frankly, he wasn't paying attention to the district. He was gallivanting around the globe. He was raising money in Paris and London and Geneva as recently as a month ago for Nancy Pelosi, while I was out doing six, seven, eight events a day for six months and pounding the pavement, talking to voters. And I think it paid dividends on Election Day. Now, what happened? Why didn't the you know, a lot of the Trump detractors say, if you were Trump adjacent, you got wiped out. say if you were Trump adjacent, you got wiped out. Like if you were Trumpy, you got wiped out. We've talked about our first segment, how that may or may not be totally true. Why? Why? Like, do you feel like that didn't affect you at all? And I don't know whether you are Trump adjacent.

I know you've said it's time for him to move on. But do you feel like you avoided that? Well, you know, Maloney was tagging me as MAGA Mike and too extreme for the Hudson Valley. But anybody who's talked to me for five seconds realizes that's not how I am or who I am. And I think, you know, for me, I won a two to one Democratic district two years ago. And I did that by going into every community, talking to voters, regardless of their race, their ethnicity, their gender, their religion, or their political persuasion. And I did the same thing here. And I think for me, that played well, because voters were very upset about what was going on. And it wasn't so much about being a Republican or a Democrat. I ignored the attacks that that Maloney was, you know, running against

me. He was lying about my position on abortion. He was lying about a number of things. And I just kept heavily focused on the issues that voters were concerned about, which was primarily inflation, the cost of living and crime, and just hammered away on it. And I think that obviously, ultimately, prevailed, because that's where voters were focused on. And I think part of this as we move forward as a party, candidate recruitment matters, but also message discipline matters and not getting into, frankly, issues that voters either don't care about or are less likely to get their vote. How big a factor do you think this so-called election denialism was in the national races? Well, I think it I think it hurts any candidate that's engaged in it because, I mean, unfortunately, it's just not based in reality. And, you know, I was asked very clearly, did Joe Biden win? And I said, yes.

And was January 6th wrong? Yes. And I think, you know, that immediately ended that conversation with anybody who had a concern because I was not trying to hem and haw about it. So, you know, I think as we move forward, we got to move beyond some of this, this rhetoric. There's no question when you when you talk about election laws, you want to make sure they're fair, you want to make sure that they are enforced to the letter of the law. But to just make blanket statements that the election was stolen or fraudulent, I don't think serves anyone well. And I think for those that engaged in that, I think it backfires. So one more question on Trump, and then I want to talk about Hochul. What do you think about him? I mean, he's clearly making an announcement next week

that sounds like a presidential announcement. He's tweeting out or truthing out right now messages that he's the best candidate, retweeting people who are saying he's the one who should run, he should be the next president. I mean, very clearly he's in a lane right now. Should he run again? Look, he's going to make that decision and nobody else is going to tell him whether he can or can't run, obviously. And and ultimately, should he run, voters are going to make the final determination. But I think, you know, so many of the policies that he enacted are embraced by Republicans. And he had a lot of accomplishments during his administration. And I think what is unfortunate is that rather than focus on those accomplishments and the record,

a lot of time has been squandered, you know, talking about the past or talking about what is perceived slights. And I just don't see how that serves him well. I don't see how it serves the country well or the party well. And I think should he run, he really should be focused on the future and he should be focused on what he's going to do to fix the challenges that we're facing. Me personally, I would like to see new voices kind of step up. I think we have some great rising stars in the and didn't get caught up in some of the Southern nonsense that goes on. And then finally, they went back to masks. I mean, long past the point where any but any serious person thought that worked. And they're frustrated. And these are lifelong Democrats who voted red in this election. I'm sure you know a lot of these people. They don't understand how Kathy Hochul got reelected. They don't understand why here we are on the Friday after the midterms. And we're getting video of Governor Hochul with Randy Weingarten visiting Puerto Rico

with a bunch of children behind them still masked up. Hold on. I'll just show it to the YouTube audience here because it's it makes my blood boil. Here it is. Oh, they're having such a good time. There she is clapping. And every child has got a mask on their face and she doesn't. And the other adults don't either. And no one wanted to see this. No one wanted to see her laughing and cheering and clapping with her without a mask on with the children still. It's not New York, but still, but still masked up. It's so unnecessary. How how'd she do that? It's really sad. She is one of the most incompetent people I've ever seen in any elected position. And obviously, you know, she walked into it because Governor Cuomo imploded because of all of his conduct and especially surrounding the nursing home crisis here in New

York. It's sad because L Zeldin really would have tackled the challenges that New Yorkers were dealing with, which is primarily affordability and crime. And she still refuses to do anything to address the scourge of crime in New York City. The fact that she has not called us back for a special session to repeal cashless bail, to ensure judges do have discretion, to create a dangerousness standard speaks volumes to what her priorities are. No, she would rather fly down to Puerto Rico and dance in the streets with children being masked right next to her. It just shows you how out of touch she is, how incompetent she is. And unfortunately, in New York City, where they are

most impacted by these really bad policies, they voted to reelect her once again. And it's very frustrating. I previously served as executive director of the state Republican Party. I ran Rob Astorino's campaign for governor in 2014 against Andrew Cuomo. We were outspent seven to one. And yet Rob defeated Cuomo 49 to 46 outside the city of New York. Rob got 18 percent of the vote in New York City. Lee Zeldin got over 30 percent of the vote in New York City. Lee Zeldin got over 30 percent of the vote in New York City and and won the rest of the state pretty, pretty convincingly. Unfortunately,

you know, a lot of Democrats came out in New York City and voted to continue this disastrous set of policies that have really destroyed our state. It's a very far left city and getting more far left by the second as people of reason move out in droves. It went 87 percent for Joe Biden in the presidential election. So the fact that Zeldin got 30 percent really says something about how at least some people there are feeling. Meanwhile, in your district. So you this is an embarrassing loss for the Democrats. This one, it's embarrassing. This is a district that Biden won by 10 points in 2020 that now you just turned red. And your opponent, Maloney, is talking about his loss. And he, I think, was gracious and conceding. You won fair and square, but kind of took a shot at AOC, which was interesting. He said she's also a New

York congresswoman. She represents a different district. She said, I didn't see he said, I didn't see her one minute of these midterms helping our House majority. She's an important voice in our politics, but he continued. But when it comes to passing our agenda through the Congress or standing our ground on the political battlefield, she was nowhere to be found. What do you make of that? She's fought back, saying he courted me for donations and swing races, and it was the first thing I did this term over a quarter million for Dems this cycle. D triple C facilitated some, and now he denies it if he's not aware of my visit to CA and

efforts we put in. That's on him. And she goes on, as for him not seeing me, perhaps it's because as a party leader, he chose not to see or value prominent members of his party for years. And she goes on. Listen, the infighting begins. Look, at the end of the day, honestly, he has nobody to blame but himself. I mean, he was in part responsible for the redistricting fiasco with his memo that was Exhibit A in the lawsuit that overturned the Democrat-drawn maps. He moved into a district that he only represented 25 percent of, and he really

did not campaign until the final three weeks. You know, this district is home to Bill and Hillary Clinton and George Soros. And in the final three weeks, he had Bill Clinton come and campaign for him. He had Jill Biden come in. He had Hillary Clinton send an email out for him. He had Joe Biden make phone calls into the Orthodox Jewish community to try and sway votes. Yeah. didn't make phone calls into the Orthodox Jewish community to try and sway votes. He scrambled and he lost and he lost because he was out of touch. I mean, at the end of the campaign, he told voters that, you know, his plan to deal with inflation was that they should go eat Chef Boyardee. I mean,

it was comical if it wasn't so sad. So I think, you know, he can point the finger at Kathy Hochul. He can point the finger at AOC. But frankly, I think voters were tired of his shtick. Mike Lawler, it's going to be fascinating to watch you and your fellow newly elected Republicans as you head down to Washington. All the best to you. Thanks, Megan. Wow. What a feat. Coming up, Rick Grinnell and you. Our next guest is Rick Grinnell. We're going to bring him in in one second. He was, of course, acting director of national intelligence under the Trump administration. But we're going to begin this hour or this block, I should say, with your calls. I can see the phone lines already lighting up. Let's go to Kathy in Indiana. Kathy, you have you have thoughts on Trump DeSantis? Oh, hi, Megan. How are you? Hi. Hi, good. Good. Hey, thanks for taking my call. I, I like DeSantis, but I'm still a Trump fan. I, unlike you, do believe there was a lot of suspicion and there was some fraud that went on in the 2020 election. Unfortunately, since we have so many Democratic left-leaning judges, they wouldn't allow the evidence to be told.

I actually had a very, very close friend of mine that worked in the polls during the 2020 election. And she said it was just unreal, the things they were doing. And there's just too many people that have come forward. So I think the problem is that it is so entrenched, the deceit in Washington, it has gotten so powerful that Trump was trying to unbury the boat. And unfortunately, you know, the rhinos don't want it to be known. And the Democrats definitely don't want it to be known. And so you're not ready for like to move on. You know, you've heard prove what he's going to do. Now, I get it. I get tired of listening to the same speech over and over. But one, no offense to the East Coast people, but he's a New Yorker.

I teach for a major university here in Indiana. And all the people from New York who I dearly love, but they're very brash and they're very, what's the word? Especially out of the New York real estate scene, that's for sure. Yes, they're very uh what's the word especially out of the new york new york real estate scene that's for sure yes they're very crude so i just have to get past that brashness and just go you know what you know you're a great person uh does he have flaws yes of course he does but i think he also has the hoots buzz to to take people down and just say enough is enough because our country is just imploding with it. And my students who are from around the world. I got to run, but I appreciate your voice and your opinion, Kathy.

Thank you. Thank you for calling in. Let's see. Let's go to, let me see, David in North Carolina, and then we'll bring in Rick Grinnell. David, hi, what's on your mind? Hey, Megan. I'm kind of on the opposite camp. I mean, I love Trump, a big supporter, but it's like you said, you know, sometimes the

relationship is over and you've got to move on. I think that Trump wrote the blueprint, but he's just not the vessel anymore to carry it forward. I think DeSantis, you know, I think he beat Biden like a drum. But I just don't see, you know, suburban moms, never Trumpers. I don't see him getting over that. I mean, my wife is one of them. She would not vote for Trump if she was running against anybody. I mean, she voted for Biden. Split in the family.

Yeah. And she's a conservative. She votes mostly Republican, but she just hates him. Meanwhile, you're like, honey, I'll drop off that absentee ballot for you. You can trust me. I got this. All right, David, I appreciate it. I like hearing from both sides. It's always fascinating in our audience. I would say they're more leaning on maybe it's time for new blood, but very, very healthy percentage saying no, we stay with Trump. Guys, thank you. I'm getting back to calls in just a minute, but I'm going to go to former Ambassador Rick Grinnell. And of course, as I mentioned, acting director of national intelligence. Rick, great to have you back on the show. It's so fascinating. It's like great

to hear from actual voters and actual actual Trump fans who are wrestling with some of these issues. You know, I had Rich Lowry on who made the case for why it's time to move on. You've read the National Review pieces. What is the case to not move on to stick with President Trump and say to Ron DeSantis, maybe later, but not yet? Well, first of all, I should start by saying, I'm not an East Coaster. I live out West. And, you know, the East Coast types are typical. I mean, I've heard these arguments for a long time. They tend to rush into making big sweeping judgments, like it's Donald Trump's fault that we didn't have a red wave. And meanwhile, I'm thinking, we still have Arizona and Nevada that were counting ballots. And how do we know there hasn't been a big red wave?

We might sweep it all. Let me just say one thing. If there was one person on the ballot this midterms who was the most pro-Trump, had the best Trump relationship and President Trump went all in on, it's Carrie Lake. Yes. And the fact of the matter is, is Carrie Lake is a rock star nationally. Carrie Lake is solidly pro-Trump and Carrie Lake is going to be the governor. I can tell you, I've dug into these numbers. I've been working in Arizona and Nevada.

She is going to be the governor of Arizona. And also I'll add this before I give you my opinion on Trump DeSantis. President Trump picked Ted Budd, J.D. Vance, Adam Laxalt, and one more. Oz? And no, one more that's going to win, that could win. Blake Masters in Arizona, right? So President Trump picked all of these people in the primary when they were not ahead and they didn't have the most money. All of them are either on the cusp of winning or already won. So let's just say that Blake Masters and Adam Laxalt win. Donald Trump will be able to say, I picked people in the primary that ultimately

gave the Senate to the Republicans. We know the House is going to Republicans. Only on the East Coast is this idea that the Republicans win the House and the Senate, and yet somehow they're all disappointed because they didn't get their neighborhood picks, which let's be honest, Megan, you know this to be true. All of the staffers in television news live in New York or Washington, D.C. They care about Pennsylvania and New York more than anything. They lost Oz. They lost Lee Zeldin when they were told they were going to win in this big red wave. They're wildly disappointed.

And so they move on. I've even seen people talking about let's vote in the leadership race this week. I'm like, is that madness? We still have two senators that might still win out West. We're still counting votes out West and you East Coasters are like already moving on. So with all of that said, I say bring it on. A healthy primary is good. I think it'll make Donald Trump better. I think it'll make other people better, but make no mistake, I know our base. Donald Trump runs, Donald Trump is the nominee. It doesn't matter what happens in the race. If somebody else wants to jump in and literally lose, then they should jump in and lose.

But there's no question that there's only one person who has been tested and is absolutely going to win with the base. Nobody can get the crowds that Donald Trump has. And I'll just finish with this. If you think that any future president, whether it's Ted Cruz or Ron DeSantis or whomever, Carrie Lake, OK, some future president, if you don't think that their home is going to be raided and they're going to be impeached twice, you don't understand what's happening in the Democratic Party. These people are radicals on the left. Donald Trump has already withstood this incredible and is unlike anybody else's. But if you don't think they're going to toxify DeSantis or Cruz or Youngkin, even with his little sweater vest, they will.

They made Mitt Romney into a crazy misogynistic ass because he said, I have binders full of women instead of the more artful binders full of women's resumes, which is just a slip of the tongue. They had him like into Harvey Weinstein by the end of that news cycle. Yeah, totally. And I think I think we've got to learn that lesson as Republicans. And by the way, the base has learned this lesson. They want a fighter. They don't want you backing down. They don't want you to say, OK, let's do better next time. We look, we're dealing with a Democratic Party that just put a woman on the Supreme Court who doesn't know the difference between a man and a woman. We are not talking about a rational Democratic Party.

These people are radicals. They have to be crushed. We can't negotiate with people who don't know the difference between a man and a woman. This is this is a literally a time where we have to have the best fighters and people who by the way, who cares what the New York Times says they're not our people, our people are not watching that. So why are we going to sit around with a bunch of bedwetters and saying, Oh, we gotta have somebody who's gentler and nicer. I say, what about what's happening now? Because it's not just New York Times.

Now you have the New York Post. You have the Journal. You have some on Fox News. You've got the Daily Wire. You've got, you know, more and more, yes, never Trumpers, like National Review.

I love those guys, but they're not pro-Trump. Although they backed him on most of his presidency. They shouldn't want him to actually be the president. So it's all this sort of right-wing media.

A lot of never Trumpers, but they're not all never Trumpers that I just listed who are saying, no, it's all this sort of right wing media, a lot of never Trumpers, but they're not all number Trumpers that I just listed who are saying, no, it's time. Yeah, totally. And I get that and I see it and I'm not blind to it, but I guess I'm old and I've worked on five presidential campaigns. And I can tell you this, that this is extremely typical, that whenever the front runners out there, there's always a lane for somebody says it's time to move on. There's always a lane for I'm the nicer one that

can get along with the other side. Look, I think that that is a worthy review, right? We should have somebody come up and say, I can get along with the other side. And let's look at it. Let's review it. And let's look at that person and decide. I'm just telling you that the that I'm a person who's not part of the East Coast elite. You could argue I'm part of the West Coast elite, but I try not to be. I'm pretty. I grew up middle class, maybe lower middle class. I really identify with regular people. As you know, I'm gay. I feel like I'm already an outsider in many ways in the Republican Party. I got to be careful with who I offend so that I can still maintain credibility inside. So I feel like I'm a scrappy fighter from the outside. And I know these people. And I'll say this, I have waited for a very long time to have a Republican Party that has first and second generation Americans and working class people as the core. You go to any Trump rally, you go anywhere, and we've got first and second generation Americans fighting hard saying this country is going down the wrong path. And Donald Trump is the fighter that we need. And the media is all corrupt. And then you've got working class people who have always voted Democrat. And now they're coming around and voting with Donald Trump. Now we've got Hispanics. I fear that if we go the way of, you know, the National Review or, you know, some of these other never Trump type

publications, that they're going to try to put us into the party that is more like for the rich white guy. And I don't want that party. I want the party to be, you know, a real country club of Republicans, country club Republicans. Now, wait, let me finish. I'll say this. Because I have a veteran state tribute that we have to get to too. That's a real hard transition because you lose the corporate money when you do that. And therefore, we're at an odd on some of these campaigns. It's going to take us a little while. Can I ask you quickly, there are reports that donors are pulling out of Trump,

you know, in the campaign like crazy, that they're all going to back DeSantis and he's not going to have any money. Yeah, I don't see that at all. I know our California donors really well. They're more right wing than the average voter. OK, OK. Let me ask you this. This is an interesting report by Josh Crashour. And he he's pointing out he's looking at the polls and he says important political point here from NBC News, the somewhat disapprove of Biden voters backed. He calls them normie Republicans. That's just a short form for twitter twitter but could not stomach the maggot types and he gives a couple of examples in georgia they went a kemp

won these voters by 57 to 41 but warnock but they went for warnock 50 to 44 so it's basically a 19 sorry a 22 point swing they they overwhelmingly voted for the GOP governor, but they sided with a Democrat senator. And he's saying candidate quality there, Herschel Walker. In New Hampshire, they went 59 to 39 for the GOP governor, but they only went 72 to 25 for Maggie Hassan. In other words, there too was a 34 point swing. They split their ticket, GOP Dem, in favor of the Democrat over a Trump endorsed Dan Buldick. And they go through the same thing in Nevada. I take your point about Arizona because Carrie Lake is very pro-Trump and also an election denier, that's the

short form. And Blake Masters, less so. And she's doing better than he is, according to the early results. So like maybe she's an anomaly because she is a star, telegenic, powerful messenger. I mean, just a lot of great political qualities. But what do you make of that, that the somewhat disapprovers who you need to win an election, they were like, and they want the so-called normies or country clubs or whatever we're calling these other guys? Well, first of all, I would say that it's not Donald Trump's fault that certain candidates didn't perform well. You look at even in Pennsylvania, he endorsed Mastriano, which some people would say is a very far right candidate. And then he got in trouble for endorsing Dr. Oz because Dr. Oz was a far left candidate. So you can't really win in any way with his candidates in Pennsylvania. I will give you that in New Hampshire, I think Bolduc was probably not our best choice to put forward. And, you know, you've got the governor performing better. I think Georgia has been a mess for a long time. I guess my rule is, is that all politics is local. And I'll finish with this. In Arizona, you've got Abe Hamadeh, who is a diehard pro-Trump,

first generation American, Syrian and Venezuelan, out front of the whole ticket. He's the one who's getting the most votes, even better than Kerry Lake and Blake Masters. And he is wildly pro-Trump. And then you've got Adam Laxalt and Lombardo both performing pretty much the same. But it's all about the local politics. Every state has a little bit different. You know, in Michigan, for instance, it was all about abortion. And so it was really rough. But Tudor gave a real big run for her money. And in New York for Zeldin, he did amazingly well for a Republican in New York. He was a Trump-supported candidate. And I think that, you know, you just got to look at each state. That's the great thing

about the United States is we've got 50 states. New York is different than North Dakota. Michigan's interesting to me because I confess I didn't follow Dan Bolduc back closely, nor Mastriano, although I saw every single piece of press on him was terrible. But I did talk to Tudor Dixon, and I did follow that race a little bit more closely just because she was interesting. And Whitmer was just a nightmare during COVID. And they're now trying to make her into this like crazy extremist. Like she wasn't, you know, she also has the little sweater vest. She she was pro-life. And but she said she would not interfere if the voters said, you know, in this Prop 3 vote that abortion is going to stay legal for, you know, basically the Roe standard return. She's like, I'm not going to interfere with that. And she did nod to the election denialism thing.

And the January 6th sort of, you know, did he really lose? So that was the most, quote, extreme thing she did. But they're really trying to make her sound like she's a lunatic. And so that was one of the things, Rick, that gave me pause in terms of so many members of the press, they hate, hate Trump and they see the chance to like cut him out. It's like, this is it. Let's get it going. And it almost seems like an effort, like a group effort to blame all the losses on him, because now this is the chance to sever the relationship between the GOP base and Trump. Look, first of all, let's just take the Michigan example. The Michigan thing is not about Trump at all, even though, you know, people who don't understand will try to make it about Trump. Gretchen had three times the money that Tudor did. Donald Trump endorsed Tudor. But let me just tell you, there was a whole bunch of

Trump people in Michigan who thought that Tudor was too moderate and were screaming at Trump, don't endorse Tudor, go with the more right wing person. And Trump didn't listen to that. And he endorsed Tudor because he liked Tudor. But let's just be honest about Michigan. I was born there. I follow it very closely. That entire race was about abortion. That's all Gretchen talked about. There was, you know, Elise Lodkin should have lost. She eked it out and won on the abortion issue alone have money to combat the extremism that they were trying to do in scaring voters on the abortion issue. Michigan was literally all about an abortion. It was about abortion. OK, finally, is Trump really going to announce for president on Tuesday and should he? Well, look, I really don't have any specific information to know exactly what he's

going to do. I've been part of the conversations of up and down and what. I'll leave it to him to decide exactly what's going to happen on Tuesday. I will just say this is that, you know, Donald Trump wants to run for president. If he runs for president, he's the nominee. There's just no doubt in my mind. Anybody who gets involved in the primary, you're welcome to it. It's going to be rough. You can't be surprised that Donald Trump is going to play rough. Any undercurrent from people, whether it's Mike Pompeo or DeSantis or Nikki Haley, who literally want to try to stay under the radar with donors, but collect the money and keep telling people you're running, but not tell reporters you're

running, it gets out. The Trump team knows you can't be surprised that we're going to play hardball. It's a primary. Welcome to American politics. What do you think about Kayleigh McEnany saying he should not announce this before Georgia? Georgia's too important to win. Look, I think there's a lot of people with different opinions. I think everybody in the media knows that Donald Trump is already running. I don't buy into this East Coast idea that, oh, somehow announcing before the election or before Georgia makes it about Trump. I mean, look, you could argue that Donald Trump has a massive army. And when he focuses the massive army on something, they come out. I don't buy this East Coast thing that, oh, the people aren't

going to come out because of Trump. You had a caller, David, that was saying that his wife voted for Biden, but he was trying to say she's a diehard conservative. I'm sorry. I don't believe that anyone is a diehard conservative if you voted for Joe Biden simply because you don't like mean tweets. Look at your gas price. Now, wait, just before I let you go, what will happen? What do you think is Trump's sort of intimating? It's not going to go very nicely for DeSantis if he does run against Trump in a primary. What do you think that would look like? Well, look, I don't think anybody should be surprised that we're going to play hard. If you jump into the primary, Donald Trump wants to be the nominee and it's politics. So put on your big boy pants.

No complaining. Don't say he's too mean. This is the primary. We're confident that if Donald Trump runs, Donald Trump is the nominee. So fun talking to you, Rick Grinnell. Great to see you, my friend. All the best. All right. And we will be right back with a special Veterans Day message. Don't go away. Today, our nation celebrates Veterans Day, a day when we take time to remember all U.S. military veterans who served, fought, and sacrificed for the freedoms we have today.

Over the last two years on this show, we have had the privilege of profiling some of our nation's most heroic veterans. Incredible, in-depth discussions about the battles they fought. Those are my most memorable interviews. When people ask me, what's your favorite interview? Those are the ones that come to mind. These battles that they fought abroad, and then in some cases, when they returned back home, more of an internal battle in some cases. In May, 2020 for Memorial Day, back when we were just an audio only podcast, I spoke with Rob O'Neill, the U.S. Navy SEAL who shot Osama'm going. I just need to say it out loud.

If we know we're going to die, why are we going? And so we had a conversation and we had a conversation. We said, okay, well, we're not going after bin Laden for the fame or the reward or the bravado. We are going after Osama bin Laden with a single mom who dropped her kids off at elementary school on a Tuesday. And 45 minutes later, she jumped to her death

out of a skyscraper because that was a better alternative than whatever the hell was going on inside at 2,500 degrees Fahrenheit. And her last gesture of human decency was holding her skirt as she jumped out of a building and murdered herself.

She was never supposed to be in the fight. We're supposed to be in the fight. That's why we're going. Oh, my God. If you don't have chills and listening to that, you do. I know you do. Like me. Robert O'Neill, we salute you and your many sacrifices for our country. This past Memorial Day, we spoke with Medal of Honor recipient Dakota Meyer. In 2009, while serving in Afghanistan, Dakota and his team were ambushed by more than 50 Taliban fighters. Over the course of the six-hour battle, Dakota defied military orders and repeatedly entered and reentered the ambushed area to rescue his trapped and wounded teammates. I remember reaching down and picking, I think I picked up Gunny Johnson first, and Gunny was the biggest one.

And I picked him up, threw him over my shoulders, and I started to carry him out, and I just slipped, and I fell. It was like every bit of energy I had, that fell flat on my face. And I got back up, and the Afghan soldiers, I see them, they're right there. And they're going to grab the guys. And I was kind of upset. I kind of got mad at them. And I said, hey, don't touch my guys.

I said, I'll take them home. And Fazel came up to me and he said, no. He said, and I did. I started crying like i literally like when i fell with gunny johnson like i literally started crying and uh i'll never forget fazel came up to me he said don't don't cry you can't show this weakness and uh i was like you're right and uh and he said the afghans want to help you get your guys out because they just watched you help get their guys out. And it was such a kind of for me, it was like a monumental moment in my life of, you know, it's not us against them.

It's just it's good against bad. My goodness, these interviews. Dakota is credited with saving the lives of 36 U.S. and Afghan troops that day. Oh, we thank you so much, Dakota, for your service. highly decorated special operations unit of the Iraq war. You talk to these guys now, everybody knows Jocko. And I have to say, if you're a parent and you want your child to learn how to deal with adversity and taking ownership, listen to Jocko, read Jocko's books. He's got a whole series for kids. Jocko shared with us the story of having to deal with the fallout of an operation that went wrong. Some of my guys ended up in a firefight with friendly Iraqi soldiers who had a U.S. Marine with them. And it's a nightmare. One of the Iraqi soldiers

got killed. A couple other ones got wounded. One of my guys got wounded. And it was only by the grace of God that none of my guys were killed. It was just an absolute nightmare. I couldn't feel comfortable picking the person to blame. And I just was trying to figure, is it this guy? Should I blame this guy? Should I blame this other guy? And as I'm sitting there, I realized like a bolt of lightning hit me that the reason I couldn't figure out who to blame was because there was only one person to blame. And that person was me. I'm the overall guy in charge, I'm responsible for what happens. Whatever happens is on me.

And so I went in there and took ownership of the entire incident. And this is not the first time that I ever had this idea. This is how I was brought up in the SEAL teams, and really this is how I was brought up as a human. When something goes wrong, you don't blame other people. You take ownership. The SEALs are just, they're cut from a different cloth. I mean, it's just, you know what they've been through. Thank you for your service, Jocko Willink. Last but certainly not least, in August 2021, we spoke with retired U.S. Navy SEALs and twins,

Marcus and Morgan Luttrell. In 2005, while on a mission to kill or capture a high-ranking Taliban terrorist, there was an ambush. Marcus was the only survivor of the attack, but it took six days for the military to find and rescue him. He later wrote a book titled Lone Survivor. Morgan told us the story of what it was like for him and his family when they found out that Marcus had been rescued. Master Chief Gothro was out there, and he's the one that would answer the phone. And by this time, there's anywhere, there's about 40 SEALs out there. And we would all pile into my father's bedroom, which was a little bitty. And shoulder to shoulder, Master Chief's on the phone. He's

like, yes, sir. Roger that. Understood. Roger that. Yes, sir. And he dropped his head. And I mean, we lost it, right? We was like, oh my God, you know, the worst case scenario. And I'm sitting there staring at him. Everybody was crying around. I was in there staring at him. And he gives us a thumbs up. Anyhow, my parents came walking in. And then some of my best friends came walking in. They saw everybody else crying. Mom loses it. Dad loses it. And they're like no no no like they they found him he's rescued so um i mean i don't remember who it was walked out to the crowd and said they found him and i mean it sounded like super bowl like i could hear it from afghanistan so all the but the problem with that was all the all my friends and family were

celebrating the fact that found my brother but all the seals that were out there and all the and there were some marines and Army and everybody just started to come out and spend time with us. We were still very stoic because we're down. We're down men. Wow. In the end, the three other SEALs Marcus was on the mission with did not survive. So in addition to honoring Marcus and Morgan Luttrell today, we also salute Lieutenant

Michael Murphy and Petty Officers Danny Dietz and Matt Axelson. Morgan Luttrell has also found another way to continue serving this country. This past Tuesday, he became Congressman-elect Morgan Luttrell. He will be serving in Congress, representing Texas' 8th Congressional District. Yay! Congrats, Morgan. So proud of you. So to all these heroes and all of our listeners and viewers who served as well, we thank you for your service.

All right. I want to take a few more of your calls in the time that we have left. Let's go to let's go to Kathy in Florida. She's got thoughts. Kathy, what's on your mind? Hi, Megan. Just I mean, I love Trump. I love what he did for the country.

I love that he exposed the media for what it was. But it's time for someone new. And if Trump really wanted to succeed, and we could be so successful, but we need someone who's going to pull the country together, not pull it further apart. Hmm. What if he endorsed DeSantis? Can you imagine? I mean, we could go so far and he could be so successful and he could claim all of that. But it doesn't sound like Trump. It doesn't seem like that's where we're going. Kathy, thank you. I want to squeeze a couple more in. Bill in Iowa, what are your thoughts?

Oh, it's Dale in Iowa. Oh, Dale, hi. What are your thoughts, Dale? especially those who served overseas. That was still one of the highlights of my career. As I look at the flag that draped my father's coffin that's folded, it's such a reminder that every day, everything that we have and we owe is to people who voluntarily sign up for this assignment. I can give you a little bit from Iowa, since we're first in the nation for the Republican side of the caucus. I'm an independent. I think both sides are screwed up. was a great leader knows when it's time to pass the mantle. He'd had great policies, but it's time to move on. We don't anymore. Well, how he's the greatest thing.

We're done. We're done. We're done. We're done. Yesterday, when I heard Winston Sears, Lieutenant Governor of Virginia, by the way, a fellow veteran, say the same thing. It's time to move on. We shall see. Thank you for the call, Dale, and thank you for your service and that of your family. Dave in Delaware, you've got thoughts, but you don't take a lot of calls from Delaware. Pleasure to speak with you. What are your thoughts?

Sure. Your last caller summed it up so well. I've been a huge supporter of Donald Trump for many years, but it's time for us to move on. There's been a lot of gross injustices done to Donald, but it's time for us to move on. And the issue isn't the primary that I'm concerned about. It's the general election that we're all concerned about, that we need to win the general election. And there's now just too much noise and confusion with Donald and too much separation. So we need to come together. And if Donald could be so humble to support someone like a dissent, there's also like Kristi Noem. I read her book. She's yeah, she's one of the favorites for the for the VP slot. Sorry to cut you off, my friend. I got to I'm up against a hard break. But thank you for your call. Thank you all for calling and for listening. I couldn't do it without you guys. And I'm I just feel like we had a big week together and I appreciate you, you being with me. Listen, next week on the show,

we got Victor Davis Hanson. Can't wait to talk to him. Senator Rand Paul, Alex Berenson, Dr. Laura and Doug Brunt will join us next week. Mm hmm. Thanks for joining us. Download the show, go to youtube.com and subscribe to it, Megyn Kelly. Thanks for listening and have a great weekend. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.