The Megyn Kelly Show - The Debate Mess, with Hugh Hewitt, Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti | Ep. 2

Episode Date: September 30, 2020

Megyn Kelly is joined by Hugh Hewitt of Salem Radio and Krystal Ball and Saagar Enjeti of Hill TV's Rising to talk about the first presidential debate. Megyn and her guests discuss the mess that was the first debate between President Donald Trump and Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden. They also talk about moderator Chris Wallace's performance, what happens next in the presidential race and more.Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms:Twitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShowFind out more information at:https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations. Hey everybody, it's me, Megyn Kelly, and welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Of course, today we're talking about the hot mess of the presidential debate last night. We've got Hugh Hewitt here today, along with Crystal Ball and Sagar and Jetty to have full analysis for you. We've got our favorite clips, and I will have a reaction of my own to the moderation, to the candidates, and to where we probably now stand in this race. But first, before we get to all that, we have to talk about your security, because there was a time when your important personal information was only in a few places, like your wallet, right? Your computer, or maybe a safe deposit box. Now, sadly, it's basically everywhere. You know that you can't, there's no more privacy in 2020. It's on your mobile device.

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You'll save 25% or more off your first year signing up today by going to norton.com slash mk. That's norton.com slash mk for 25% off. Joining me now before we get to Hugh Hewitt and Crystal Ball and Sagar and Jetty is Steve Krakow. He's the executive producer of the show, but he's also a media analyst. And he's been at The Blaze.

He's been at CNN. He's done a lot of interesting things and has a great, great newsletter called Fourth Watch. So he's got his own independent thoughts on media and how this was handled. But I'll tell you, Steve, overall, as I looked at that debate last night, my reaction was it was complete chaos. And I learned nothing. I learned nothing. nothing yeah it was mildly entertaining just like in the way a boxing match would be um the dynamics of how trump would keep punching and whether biden would ever counter punch as opposed to

running to the corners of the ring uh but overall it was kind of like you want to cover your eyes yeah i would have loved like a really exciting like you know prime two two boxers in their prime kind of boxing match but But this was like, two people that just put on gloves for the first time and have never really, you know, it was so amateurish and just all over the place and they're just flailing arms. Yeah, it was a shit show. To me, it was more like Trump. He was like, this big, scary sort of, you know, television show monster like and Biden was the old man kind of, you know, a little frail in the corner like chuckling. It's mean, which I don't know. I think Trump supporters will love how aggressive he was and want to see him give it to Biden who's, you know, compared him to a Nazi. They have no empathy or sympathy for Biden. And Biden was probably thinking about those suburban moms and seniors and just fine with Trump appearing like a bully. And really, the bullying was pretty much just in the interrupting.

That's really what he was doing, right? He was just, he wouldn't let Biden get a sentence out uninterrupted. And therefore, Biden really doesn't have a clean soundbite all night. I guess I'm curious what your take is on work. And for me, as somebody who's moderated these debates, including with Trump, it was frustrating because I do believe there was a way of controlling them. And what I would have done if it were possible, because to tell you the truth, I'm not sure whether it's the Commission on Presidential Debates that's controlling the optics of the night and the production, or whether it's Chris's team. But either way, you'd have to go in saying, I'm going to be the moderator and this is how I want it because I am there to protect the audience and this is what I need to do it. You need to

keep the camera on me when the two people are fighting and they won't listen to me. When I'm trying to regain control over this debate, I have the camera. And if I tell you to cut their mics, cut their mics. And let me tell you, that will have a magical effect of shutting people up. Once they know the audience can't see them and can't hear them, they will stop talking. They will. It's magic. It's not a great moment for the moderator to have to treat them like toddlers in that way. But your job is to protect the audience. And, you know, that didn't really happen. And it was a frustration for everyone there. Right. But having said all that, Steve, I actually don't really put this 100% on

Chris. I really think Joe Biden missed a huge opportunity last night. He should have handled it. And instead, he kept looking at Wallace like his teacher, you know, to come in and save him like he's being mean, he won't stop talking. You know, it made Biden look small. And he was sort of ceding the authority of the night to Trump and Wallace. And I think Biden could have done a couple of things. Number one, he could have turned to Trump early on and given away 30 seconds of his own time and said, look, I know you have a lot to say. So do I. We have about 100 million people tuning in for this debate tonight on one of the most important issues in their lives and one of the most important elections in their lives. And I think they'd really appreciate it if you didn't interrupt me and I won't interrupt you. Can we agree we're going to show the audience that respect? Right. Take the high road there. Yeah. Right. So just see what Trump will say. Right. Like, don't get irritated. Just sort of say, again, he could have stepped into the role of protecting the audience at home and they would have been grateful to him for that.

Both sides would have been grateful. And then if I were Biden, every point after that, I would have been a little amused by Trump. You know, like I would have sort of mocked him a little. I would have been like, I can see it's hard for you to control your emotions. Could you try? I can see you. Do you need a break? You seem like you might need a break.

Yeah. Right. I would just start needling him as sort of what a lot of guys do to women. Like you're a hysteric, like you can't control your emotions. Yep. Calm down. Right. Simmer. Yeah. And it was, I mean, on one level, I guess there was some effectiveness to it. But it also, to your point, it never really took the high road and, you know, threw it back at Trump that way. And you couldn't hear him. You know, he he couldn't do that because Trump just kept talking. And Biden, I mean, Biden needed to just at one point early on, be quiet, let Trump finish his rant and then do one of the things I just said. And by the way, I feel like people are missing one of the tactics I always used as a moderator and in interviewing people on camera. And it works really well. I learned it when I was taking depositions. If you just hold your hand up, you know, like the stop signal and like pointed at the person you're talking to, man, you would not believe how well that works.

It's a really effective tool for shutting people up. Talk to the hand. Anyway, I don't know that any of this would have completely controlled the situation, but I think it would have improved it. Well, that's I think you will see a different Biden next time out. Yeah. I mean, you talk about about moderating and interviewing people. But but is there a certain playbook for moderating a Trump debate versus a, you know, quote unquote, normal debate? Because it does feel like he he escalatesates these things into a whole another arena than

what is a typical, what people are used to about a debate. Well, you have to walk a fine line because it's really for the two guys to fight over lies that are told or misrepresentations. It's not for you. Remember, you don't want to have a Candy Crowley moment where you try as the moderator to step in and settle something. And in her case, she was wrong about whether Obama called Benghazi a terrorist attack. And I I've asserted, then I'm going to fight, right? I will protect my question and the integrity of my ask. But beyond that, it's for the other two guys, like, they have to go after it. So, you know, if Biden's saying Hunter didn't get all this money from Burisma and overseas, that's for Trump to have his facts on,

not Chris Wallace, although I'm sure Chris did have them. So I thought Chris did a fine job on that. He did cut off some of those discussions a little prematurely. And the one that really jumped out at me was that one on Hunter Biden. Like Trump was starting to sort of zero in and throw his jabs at Biden on Hunter. And Biden went to that moment about Beau. And, you know, whenever you bring up Beau Biden, you have nothing but sympathy for Biden, right? I mean, it's just a, it's such a sad story. But the truth is, Biden brings that up not infrequently, and has already been accused of using that sad story too much on the campaign trail. And I think that's one of the reasons Trump blew right by it. He wasn't going to take the bait on that. And he just stayed laser-like focused on Hunter. But then Wallace shut the

discussion down. And Trump did try. He tried to fight on that discussion. He wanted that to come out. But at some point, the moderator has moved on and you got to move on to. in the Atlantic. He actually brought up another anonymously. So I think we leave as a single anonymous source in Axios about this, like Trump saying we should nuke a hurricane, which, you know, Biden brought up again. It's like these anonymously sourced stories, which we don't know how the truth of it, they just become ingrained. And then Biden uses them as talking points during the debate. It's you really kind of see the effect of the of the media's, you know, actions when it comes to anonymous sources here, which I don't love. Let me ask you this. I'm curious. One of the main talking points I think that came out of the post debate is, will there be more debates? I mean, that was actually floated by multiple CNN

anchors and a lot of people on Twitter. What do you think of that and that direction? I just think that's the media running cover for Joe Biden. Biden's ahead. He's ahead. He's ahead nationally, and he's ahead in most of these swing state polls, though anything could change. You know, Hillary Clinton was ahead, too. And the media, they don't want game changers or potential game changers between now and Election Day.

They want Biden to win. That's really clear. And so even just the discussion that it would somehow be unseemly to subject oneself to another debate with that man shows their bias. It's up to the audience to decide whether they think Trump's behavior was bad or a deal changer. And, you know, the media last night was in full elite mode, you know, the scoffing Donald Trump's behavior. Even David Axelrod actually said he thought Trump ended his president or his presidency last night. I mean, come on, come on. Right. Like he he was so bad, his interruptions were so bad and he was such a bore, which people have never seen Donald Trump do before. I mean, come on. It was almost like they were in this competition to to one up each other on what could be the most extreme thing you could say after the debate, which, you know, was it was obviously a mess.

But at the same time, like, you know, yeah, come on. Is anyone completely shocked by how all this went down. Well, and what did you think, Steve? Because I was doing a little channel surfing last night and had the misfortune of skipping over to MSNBC. And it stuns me how they don't even make a pretense of putting a Republican or a conservative on to react. Like when I was on Fox, we would have strong Republicans and we would have strong Democrats on to discuss what we had just seen. Because in my experience, the Fox audience, while mostly right-leaning, always wanted to know what the other side was thinking. It wasn't good enough to have just Sean on, Sean Hannity, talking about how it was amazing. He was awesome. They wanted to know what are the Democrats going to say and what are the arguments against that? MSNBC had Rachel Maddow,

Joy Reid, and Nicole Wallace, who is not a Republican. They're trying to pan her off or pawn her off as a Republican because she used to work as a Republican and she ran the Sarah Palin before she threw everyone under the under the bus. Yeah. Yeah. So she ran the Sarah Palin nomination process and all that. But she's she is television's Jennifer Rubin. You know how The Washington Post keeps calling Jennifer Rubin a conservative columnist and there's not a person on earth who hates Trump or the Republicans more than Jennifer Rubin. Right. Well, Nicole Wallace might be next in line. And I just thought what a disservice to their audience to not even even take a little like just a little. I don't know,

meander over for a moment onto the Republican side of the aisle. You know, and Nicole Wallace, I believe, has explicitly said she's voting for Joe Biden. So I don't think we're really getting much, you know, GOP analysis from from Nicole Wallace there. No, look, you go to CNN and they had Rick Santorum on and he was basically that. Come on, Rick, you can't defend that. I mean, that was basically the way he was.

He was approached after the debate and he basically did not defend Donald Trump in that situation. But there is another way of looking at it. You know, it was a hot mess because you couldn't understand anything. But I will tell you, I think a lot of Trump supporters were like, yeah, he was aggressive. He was giving it to the guy. He kept punching. Joe Biden couldn't punch back because he's weak. I already said I think some some seniors, some women in the suburbs might not have seen it that way.

But it isn't a universal thought that Trump lost and did horribly because he refused to let Biden speak. No. In fact, the CBS News flash poll after of Battleground Tracker, instant poll of debate watchers had it at 48 percent Joe Biden, 41 percent Donald Trump, 10 percent a tie, which is almost identical to what the actual national polls are. It's like no one changed their minds at all so far. The other thing is, I think I don't know what was in Trump's mind. By the way, he definitely prepared. You know how we talked about. Right. Is he going to be prepared? Hundred percent.

He had his facts last night, which frankly is a change for Donald Trump. Usually, you know, last time around, he winged a lot of it. And you could tell this time he had his facts. But if his approach was to try to make Biden look old and tired and himself younger and more spry, you know, and up for the fights that are coming to our country, whether it's COVID or something else, he did well, right? You'd have to give him that point. You can talk about whether you liked the style, but I haven't heard a ton of Trump supporters saying he completely muffed it. I've heard them express irritation that they couldn't hear, right? that they couldn't hear

the substance. They didn't necessarily come across like their three years difference in age. I will say that, you know, 74 and 77. It did seem like, yeah, Joe Biden was quite a bit older. Well, Megan, I know we've got a lot more to talk about. I can't wait to hear you talk about your tweet that went viral last night. The Antifa, 25,000 retweets, 100,000 likes on that so far. We'll get to all that, but let's pay the bills. All right, let's do it. So, you know, now during

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Yeah, it's very official sounding. I feel like if Trump had heard that during the last election, he would have been like, Donald Trump, Scoremaster. That's debate number two. He's going to come out there as a superhero named Scoremaster. It's not a reference to that. Right. Maybe that could be my superhero name if I ever decided to go that route. Anyway, in fact, Scoremaster is the new credit science and it super boosts. It doesn't just boost, it super boosts your credit score. You forget raising your credit score a few points. That's weak. That's lame. That's last week. The average ScoreMaster user raises their credit score 61 points in 20 days or less. 61 is a lot. 61 points. Huge. So say your credit score is in

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Joining us now is Hugh Hewitt. Hugh, I'm looking forward to getting your reaction to this because I was watching your Twitter feed last night. And I thought you had an interesting take on it. First of all, you were thinking Biden was going to play possum, that he was playing possum before this debate. And we might see you put it. I think you said we might see Fred Astaire come out last night, twinkle toes across the stage. Is that what you think happened? He had the energy that no one thought he would. He absolutely went the 90 minutes. He could have kept going for another 90 minutes. And so the battle of low expectations was clearly won by Joe Biden.

And do you agree with that, Megan? I think he performed far above what I think many of the president's supporters hoped he would not be able to do. Definitely. He seemed cogent. He didn't have any senior moments. And that in and of itself was a win for him. Agree. But what did you think, like overall, first of all, just not Trump, not Biden, but just rate the debate on a scale of one to 10, 10 being the greatest thing you've ever seen, one being a total disaster and awful. What would you rate this debate? Worst debate I've ever seen. I've been watching them since 1976. This represented a low point, but in some respects, it reflects where the country is. The country is so deeply divided that old friends can't have civil conversation. So I doubt we can expect political opponents for the highest job to do so. But to call the president of the United States a

clown and a fool and to call him a liar and a bigot, and for the president of the United States to continually interrupt and for Chris Wallace to lose control. You and I have both had the unenviable job of trying to keep Donald Trump in his lane at a debate. I've got my Trump tattoos. You have more of them than I do. But Chris last night I think would have been better served if he just laid back, clasped his arms, and let them go at it. That's interesting. See, I think he should have taken control early on and sort of set the standard for how it was going to go and then and then maintain that.

Then he just sort of refer back to the initial. But I was saying earlier that I really thought the burden was on Joe Biden. And I don't think he has to go to the school teacher, Chris Wallace, to say, I mean, this guy wants to be president. So it's like you should be able to control your own back and forth with the other person. I feel like most of us, had we been out there, would have found a way to make ourselves heard as opposed to just sitting there looking irritated and looking at, you know, sort of daddy Chris Wallace to solve it. I agree with that. I think the worst moment for the vice president, well, there were two last night, Megan. He was asked, name a law enforcement agency. The president said, name one. And Joe did not have one. And that was a terrible moment. And Chris Wallace should have allowed the moment to go on. As a television person, you will know that this is a fundamental question to the Republic. If we expand the

Supreme Court, there is no refuge in the law. There is no refuge in the law. And no, if they expand the Supreme Court, the Supreme Court is done as a branch of government. It's over. It will lose all of its credibility and power. I thought that was a huge moment to let's run the soundbite. So people know what we're talking about. This is the pack the court soundbite. I have one final question for you, Mr. Vice President. If Senate Republicans, we were talking originally about the Supreme Court here. head and confirm Justice Barrett. There has been talk about ending the filibuster or even packing the court, adding to the nine justices there. You call this a distraction by the president, but in fact, it wasn't brought up by the president. It was brought up by some of your Democratic colleagues in the Congress. So my question to you is you have refused in the past

to talk about it. Are you willing to tell the American people tonight whether or not you will support either ending the filibuster or packing the court? Whatever position I take in that, that'll become the issue. The issue is the American people should speak. You should go out and vote. You're in voting now. Vote and let your senators know how strongly you feel. Vote now. Make sure you, in fact, let people know you're a senator. I'm not going to answer the question because the question is the question is

will you shut up, man? Who is on your list, Joe? Who is on your list? Now that I heard it that way, I had to cut differently for my radio show. That's the best way I've heard it cut. And it so succinctly summarizes why that is the Achilles heel of the vice president. It might be the last act in The Gladiator where Commodius puts the knife into the Russell Crowe character and he bleeds out.

That's a terrible answer and it's a terrible moment for the country. Well, I thought the defense was really interesting. I'm not going to answer it because my position will become the issue. Well, right. Duh. That's the whole point of wanting to know what your position is. This is not some small thing like, you know, do you prefer this judge or that judge if you make it as president? It's are you going to basically get rid of the Supreme Court as a meaningful legal entity in our system?

That's really what the question is. As a professional question, Megan, would you have stayed on that question if you were Chris? Would you have demanded an answer? Would you have pushed? Oh, 100%. When you smell blood in the water, you have to move in for the kill. That's how, sadly, that's how it works. But that's what makes great television. I mean, that's part of debate moderating. And part of all of this is to remember that it's broadcast television. It's broadcast journalism. It's not's not just journalism journalism does mean getting an answer but broadcast to your point earlier means knowing when you have a hot moment and how to exploit it and either let it play out or at least pour enough fuel on the fire that it keeps burning

journalism school in the country because apparently people have to go to that now instead of law school. But you have to let the moment play out. And this is Kamala Harris dodged it. She was on with Jake Tapper afterwards. She was on with John Dickerson afterwards. She gave the exact – it was like a replicate. It was like a cloning of the answer. It will not fly. America understands, I think, how important this is.

Now, the shut up. Megan, what did you think of that? I really thought he should have just he should have been mocking Donald Trump instead of insulting him. He should have been saying something like, you should try to control yourself. You seem you seem upset. You seem angry. Do you do you want to take a minute? Like, that's how I would have done it. Because, if he had said that, it would have been 86 callers Joe Biden instead of half. Right? Because that, do you need a moment?

Oh, gosh. I hope that, I know Oteem should get that. He should have mocked him. You know, like I remember even as a lawyer, you know this, Hugh, I used to take these depositions and I was this young gal you know 24 25 years old and I'd be up against opposing counsel stronger you know big guys men who'd gone to Harvard and I only went to Albany Law School and they would just be crushing me with all these angry aggressive accusations and threats to call the judge and I used to try to fight and get you match their

aggression and then later in my career I realized you know it's more effective to just stay the calm one and make fun of them it works so soft word turns away wrath they both escalated last night donald trump escal i think his theory was if you're going to take vienna take vienna he came in intending this to happen we're talking about what he intended us to talk about and And so he won in that term. It's also a three act play, right? Wait, Trump, Trump, Trump intended that or Biden? Trump intended to shatter every norm and have us all talk about the norms being shattered. Well, what did you make of the reaction to the whole exchange? Well, let's play it so people know. But there was another big exchange of the night involving Antifa and how Biden sees that and whether he would condemn it

and other and also whether Trump would condemn white supremacy. Let's listen. You have repeatedly criticized the vice president for not specifically calling out Antifa and other left wing extremist groups. But are you willing tonight to condemn white supremacists and militia groups and to say that they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of these cities, as we saw in Kenosha and as we've seen in Portland? Sure, I'm willing to do that. I would say almost everything I see is from the left wing, not from the right wing. What are you saying?

I'm willing to do anything. I want to see peace. Then do it, sir. Do it. Say it. What do you want to call him? Give me a name. White supremacist and right-wing. White supremacist and right-wing. Proud Boys, stand back and stand by. But I'll tell you what.

Somebody's got to do something about Antifa and the left, because this is not a right wing problem. This is a left wing problem. This is a left wing problem. I'm a white supremacist. Antifa is an idea, not an organization. Oh, you got it. Not militia. That's what it is.

It's an idea. What a fail. What a fail of Chris Wallace. Chris Wallace entered into that debate as a fail. What a fail of Chris Wallace. Chris Wallace entered into that debate as a participant. He asked the question the president attempted to answer twice. Now, I think the president should have said, how many times do I have to say white supremacy is bad? How many times are people going to distort what I said at Charlottesville as I went on to say I'm not talking about white supremacy? He ought to have leaned into that. But, Megan, maybe I'm being too hard on Chris. He was your colleague. He wasn't mine. I don't know him. I think he entered into that debate as a participant, control as it was. And I think in those moments, maybe you falter a bit in showing,

I don't know if I would call it bias, but he was clearly really irritated with Trump. And I think it showed in sort of who he tipped the hat to, who he gave the question to, what question he decided to move on from. And you could feel that a little. I think that's what's leading to people piling on him. But, you know. And I understand because he had to do it alone for 90 minutes. I had colleagues when I was attacked by the president. But when you're attacked by the president in front of 20 million people and you can keep your cool, you did it three times. I did it four times.

Chris should have been able to do it. And by the end, I hate that white supremacy question. It's been asked and answered 100 times. And today, Blue Bubble Media is out saying the president's in favor of white supremacy. I know. And he said, Trump said, sure. He said, well, you condemn white supremacy. And Trump said, sure. And then and then I think where things went south for Trump in that in that answer was when they're like, do it, say it, do it. And Trump's not, he doesn't respond well to being bullied or bossed around, right? And I think that's why he got on his heels

and didn't want to call out Proud Boys or get specific or do what they, he didn't want to be in a position of, you know, being their little puppet. I'll do what you say, because I think he accurately judged he would have been, he would have been, he would have looked weak on style.

But he should have condemned Proud Boys more clearly, right? I mean, meandering off into stand by and stand back, that was not good. Well, originally, I was getting up to move because I did radio before and after I hosted the Salem Network after and before. So I was getting up when the president said, Proud Boys, stand down. And then I missed him missed him say stand by so if you read the transcript it sounds like he's saying get ready which is horrible right yes and then if he's saying stand down get out of the way stand by the side of the road that's different but again this is the literally seriously part the question had gone on too long. And it wasn't stand down. It was stand back and stand by.

Stand back, that's it. Stand back and stand by. So even more charged. But the other half of that equation is Joe Biden and Antifa. And to me, it was unbelievable that he just said, you know, oh, it's not an organization, right? It's an idea. And he said even your own FBI director said that, Chris Wray. Well, you know what? Chris Wray came out right after that. He said, look,

it's not an organization. It's a movement. That's what Chris Wray said. But then he immediately came out and said, it's not a fiction. It is a real thing. It engages in organized tactical activity at the local and regional level. He said its adherents have coalesced. They've worked together in nodes as opposed to a structural hierarchy. But he said this is an incredibly dangerous group. So how Biden can just sort of take one little word that it's not an organization, it's a movement, not an ideology,

and dismiss this group, which Trump is right, has been causing chaos in our cities, was pretty stunning. And he's been given a total pass for it because of the Proud Boys comment. If there is a shy Trump voter, Megan, and I don't know, nobody knows, because it would defy polling if it does exist. Is it defied polling in the famous John Major upset in Great Britain? If it exists, it will exist because of that comment, because they see in front of them and they are afraid to go places. I know people in Washington, D.C. who will not go downtown, not because of Antifa, but because of fear of their safety and dining out. They wish not to

be harassed. I am not a New Yorker, but I have talked to Greg Gutfeld, your old colleague. New York is a different place today than it was four months ago. And for the vice president to defy, to deny that Antifa is a real thing is as bad as the president in any way encouraging Proud Boys. You know, shame on both their houses. Right, right. The only problem is only one of those comments gets any air in the media whatsoever, because all along the media has not wanted to talk about Antifa and what it's actually doing. The other sort of related issue was critical race theory. And

Trump's just issued this executive order, getting rid of these mandatory critical race theory, quote, trainings at the federal level. And, you know, the left doesn't like that, because they think that it combats implicit bias or inherent bias. And, you know, Trump handled it. But a frustration for me as somebody who's also been critical of critical race theory, which actually, Hugh, actually tells you that you have to sit there, you have to listen to any person of color, a black person tell you, you know, how, how racist white people are and how it's affected them. You're not allowed to interrupt. And then you are supposed to, quote, sit quietly in your own racism.

In fact, I thought the president's answer was going very spectacularly well on why he canceled it. And Chris Wallace interrupted him. I objected to that. Critical race theory, which has been around in Harvard Law School since I was in law school in the 80s, is a deeply destructive paradigm of understanding the law. And it does make race all important. And it does not count that the Hewitts got here in 1872 with nothing and no one to help them. And it suggests that I am somehow complicit in whatever is wrong with the country. Now, I am successful, but it's not because I inherited it. You are successful, Megan, because you worked your entire life to get what you've got.

And I think the critical race theory that the president banned is a bit of the reeducation. Rod Dreher has a new book out on soft totalitarianism, which is doing very well. And I think he recognizes what this critical race theory menace to candid conversation in a liberal society is. And I wish that the president had been allowed Trump big sway. You know, it was horrible. It's ridiculous. But he would have been well served if he had had some examples at the ready. So people understood what the heck we're talking about. We're talking about the fact that he got rid of it. So that's not really Trump's forte and never has been. Question for you now. Question for you now. There's already talk in the media of that's it. There's not going to be any more debates. Like, why would Joe Biden do that? Your thoughts on that? Well, I joked this morning on Twitter, and Steve Scully repeated it. I think I spotted him in a wig and a mustache at Dulles trying to

get to Brazil. There's no way to moderate a town hall debate, but there's no way neither of them doesn't show up or they'll lose the election. They have to come. And this is a three-act play. And the first act was, you know, it was like the Red Wedding in Game of Thrones. That wasn't the end of the theories, right? That was the Red Wedding debate. There will be new episodes. They have to show up. That was the Red Wedding debate.

That is the best summary I have heard anywhere, Hugh. That's perfect. Okay, so it's going to happen. And last question. Trump's behind in the polls, and he's behind. I don't pay attention to the national polling because I don't really think it matters. But the swing states, it's getting tighter, but he's still behind. So did he do anything to change that one way or the other last night?

Yeah, I think he did. I think he helped himself in Wisconsin. I think he helped himself in Michigan. I think he helped himself in Pennsylvania. Fracking was there. Not many people heard it, but the people whose lives depend upon it was there. The Green New Deal was there. Joe was for it before he was against it, before he was for it, before he said, it's not mine. And therefore, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, and Michigan, the three key states were all tuned in. I'll give you one data point, Megan. I haven't been able to follow up on it.

Telemundo did an online poll for Spanish speakers only. And Donald Trump won two to one. I can't believe that. But there it was on my Twitter feed. I do not know how Latinos view this election. I just don't know. What about the women? What about, you know, the suburban women, the seniors?

I think about my mother-in-law. She's from Pennsylvania. She's a moderate. You know, she's voted both ways and like like a lot of Pennsylvanians. Right. And she's 83. And I think she's open minded, but she doesn't like boorish behavior. Right. Like a lot of older people and women in particular. So does it sway somebody like her over or are they or they do get they get swayed to Biden because they see Trump so aggressive? It hurts the president with that group. The fetching Mrs. Hewitt, with whom I've been married for 38 years, would not watch last night, not after five minutes. She would not.

Conflict adverse people hated that debate so much that I can't wait to see the ratings fall because people do not watch professional wrestling unless they watch it a lot. And that was professional wrestling. Right. It's funny because I think you and I, having practiced law, we're pugilistic by nature. So there is something enjoyable just about watching the dance, the punching and the avoidance and what's the next moves from a strategic perspective. But you're right. If you don't like conflict, if you don't want to tell the cable guy he's screwed you over one too many times, you probably were like, and back to the Real Housewives.

Yeah, exactly. That's just fun conflict. Yes. You know, life is hard, especially for people who are in COVID situations, kids at home who don't have computers, who can't go to school. Life is hard. They don't need two septuagenarians screaming at each other with a moderator who's throwing up their hands. Right, right. It turned into the get off my lawn debate, which doesn't serve anybody. I'm going to steal that one. You can have Red Wedding. I'm going to go with Get Off My Lawn Debate. Deal. Great to talk to you. Thank you, Megan.

This is a feature in which we take your questions and I answer one or two. And we got tons and tons of emails from you guys. By the way, the email address is questions, plural, at devilmaycaremedia.com if you want to weigh in. But we've got one today that I'm going to take a swing at and Steve Krakauer's got it. What's the story, Steve? Yeah, Becca, the first question we're going to take is from Colin Reed. So Colin and everyone who emailed, thank you for emailing in. Colin said he enjoyed the first podcast. Look very forward to routinely listening. It's good to have you back covering events. You're a good man,

Colin. He also read your book settle for more and he has a question that ties to your book and your career he said in your career it seems like you have never been afraid to take risks and leave a good job for another opportunity those risks combined with hard work have always seemed to pay off for you however do you look back at your jump to nbc as a risk you wish you had not taken and stayed at fox that's a good question and i I get asked that a fair amount. And the answer is no, I do not look at that as a mistake or a risk I shouldn't have taken. Clearly, NBC was not the place for me. So it wasn't the best landing spot. But

leaving my job at Fox was the right move for me. And it wasn't about Fox so much as it was about my life. You know, you don't, you don't know, and you don't need to know the lifestyle of a cable news anchor who you like and watch. But in my experience, it was awful. It was just incredibly stressful. And I think it would be better if my kids were older. You know, like I talked to Tucker, his, his kids are in college. So the lifestyle is a lot better for him. You know, Rachel Maddow, she doesn't have kids. That's helpful.

Martha McCallum, her kids are, I think they're all in college now. Her youngest might be a senior in high school, but they're older. Mine, when I left the Kelly file, were seven, five, and three. I mean, they're babes. And I was missing it. I was missing the whole thing. When I first had them, Thatcher was a newborn. I went back to Fox after maternity leave when he was nine weeks old when we launched the Kelly file. But that was okay because they were so little. I had them during the day, and then I'd go off to work at night, around three or four. And I felt okay, because I'd been with them.

But by the time I left the Kelly file, they were older and they were in school for most of the day. So I never saw them. I mean, Monday through Friday, I did not see my children. And it was soul crushing. And then, you know, while I was at work, it was all stress. You know, yes, the Trump attacks, they were no fun. The whole thing with Roger Ailes was very painful and changed a lot of my relationships at Fox. You know, I still have my best friends are at Fox. I mean, my closest friends in the world are still there. So it's not all of Fox, but certainly it did change some of my relationships there with people I really cared about and respected in ways they just, they couldn't forgive. You know, they just, they didn't

understand why I wouldn't back him, but you know, that's been well-documented and you've seen the movie and all that stuff about why I, why I couldn't support him. Um, anyway, so I did leave and it was the right move for me because my life was utterly joyless. It was totally joyless, even though I was making money and I had a position of power, but I was totally unhappy. And the NBC experience was not a good one. So I think everybody knows. It had some highlights and I met some lovely people, but it didn't work out.

And that could have been foreseen if I had just taken a harder look and thought about it more. But now I'm good. You know, I'm out. I'm free. I'm free of NBC. I'm free of a lifestyle that preceded NBC that I didn't enjoy one bit. And this is a great way for me to reconnect with my audience. And it feels authentic and it feels more personal and it doesn't require any agenda on my part. You know, I'm just doing the news the way I think it ought to be done. And I know what I love about it, Colin, is that people like you, you'll, you'll like it and you'll stay tuned or you won't like it and you'll find somebody else. But the relationship is more meaningful. You know, if you find me and you stay with me, it's not just because I followed O'Reilly.

So I, you know, I'll build it. It's going to take a while, you know, brick by brick, but I feel really hopeful. And, and for what it's worth, my relationship with my family, you know, with my kids and my husband, and for that matter, with my friends has never been stronger or, or more joyful. So I, I did land that football in the end, and I think I'm the better for it. So joining me now are Crystal Ball and Sagar Njeti. They host Rising.

I like it. Rising on thehilltv.com. And it's a very fair and balanced kind of show. I love getting the perspective of both of you. You're left, Crystal and S saga. You're right, but not too far left. Not too far right. Like, I don't know. Crystal sometimes comes comes at the left from farther left, but you're so reasonable and you're you're I learn every time I watched the debate last night was, I guess it was co-sponsored by the Cleveland Clinic because it was in Cleveland. And I was thinking, well, that's just perfect, right? Because I see several medical problems on this stage right now. There's anxiety. There's an assault taking place.

And it seems pretty clear to me that there may be Tourette's up on that stage. Is there a doctor in the house? But let me start with you guys. Let me start with you, Crystal, and ask you, same question I asked Hugh Hewitt, on a scale of one to 10, one being the worst thing you've ever seen and 10 being like amazing debate, nailed it all around. What would you rate this one? I mean, it was the worst debate in American presidential history, I think I'd have to say in modern history. I mean, we've only been doing this since the 60 with people dying for a little bit of mature leadership. And the American people deserve to actually hear from both of these men about their visions for the country.

Trump was just obnoxious, hectoring every single answer, cutting Biden off. It was just annoying. In 2016, he was funny at times. He was charming at times. He was witty at times. This was just annoying. It wasn't. In 2016, like, he was funny at times. He was charming at times. He was witty at times. This was just annoying and hectoring. And then, look, Biden really struggles to be able to articulate a vision and be able to, you know, effectively communicate what he would be doing in a second term, in a first term. So I thought it was just on the substance. There was nothing there. And I can't

imagine one single person learning something last night that made them change their minds. Yeah, I learned absolutely nothing. Although I will say I'll give Trump one point on humor. My kids laughed out loud when he made fun of the size of Joe Biden's mask. That was kind of funny. But you're right, Trump, last time around, he cracked a lot of jokes and seemed more relaxed. And this time he was on offense the whole night, punch, punch, punch, punch. Sagar, what do you think? Same question, one through 10. Yeah, I mean, I definitely think it was also the worst presidential debate. And just to think about Trump and that mask moment that you highlight, I think it's funny, but it also highlights a real problem for me. I mean,

looking at this from a right perspective for Trump, which is he found himself on the wrong side of so many issues on which, in my opinion, he was on the right side of in 2016. I mean, if you look at it, whenever it comes to healthcare, last time he said 2016, he was like, everybody's going to have healthcare. And then on this one, he was basically arguing in favor of striking down Obamacare at the Supreme Court. There wasn't anything on trade. I mean, if you look back, and I think about this a lot, which is style points aside, people were willing to say, I do not like Trump personally, but I'm willing to vote for him because he's going to stand up for me on China, on trade, on immigration, on political correctness. These are all issues which the public, by and

large, agrees with. This time around, whenever it comes to masks and even reopening, and I know this is controversial on the right, a lot of people don't want to hear it, but the public is generally 75% in favor of more social distancing, even if it means economic pain, because they realize that Congress could actually alleviate their economic pain if they wanted to. So in several different instances, in a way, I said this on the show today, like Trump became a real Republican in terms of embracing a lot of the GOP kind of conventional orthodoxy, which was his strength, was running against it in 2016. So he became a real Republican just at the worst time. Yeah, exactly. I mean, he became a real Republican at a time and he became a real Republican after destroying all the real Republicans in 2016. And then embracing the platform. So was it a game changer at all in either one of your views? I don't think so. I mean, Frank Luntz did his, you know, focus groups and he said for the first time ever, you actually had voters who were undecided who made up their minds after watching that just not to vote, like just to opt out of all of it altogether, which is really depressing. doesn't vote in the presidential election because they don't feel like they've been offered a real

choice or any real reason to show up. So yeah, I think it just contributes to an additional sense of nihilism and apathy. You know, one thing to pick up on Sager's point there, in 2016, part of Trump's power was you had the Democrats running around being like, the economy's great, we've had this amazing recovery, and everything's coming back, and we did a great job. And he said, no, if this is a great economy, you have millions of Americans whose towns have been decimated, whose jobs have been shipped overseas, who are truly struggling. Now, that is more true now than ever, because of the pandemic, because of the shutdowns, because you've had a Congress and a White House that has failed to really provide an economic response that gets people through this rough time. But now he's on the flip side of being the one that's like, the stock market's amazing,

and everything's coming back, and everything's great and rosy. So he's on the completely opposite side of where all his power lied back in 2016. Look, Biden didn't do a great job. In some ways, Trump rescued him by cutting him off so much that he wasn't able to fully get out his completely inarticulate points. So Trump kind of saved him. But look, Biden's up in the polls. He didn't need a game changer, and Trump did. So you'd have to say Biden comes out still in the same position,

still on top, and ultimately that's a win for him as he tries to just run out the clock. i mean i generally agree there with yeah no i i mean i basically agree with crystal which is in terms of the game change if we think about who needed the game change moment it's obviously trump he either needed to try and win back suburban voters especially suburban white female voters which have been fleeing his campaign basically since 2017 and especially after 2018 or he needed to excite working class voters who do not generally vote the way he was able to in 2016. So you didn't see any of that. And that that's real, really the issue for me. And you know, as somebody, I kind of want

to see this realignment within the party, which is that I want to see a message that tries to excite more of those working class voters. There are so many millions of working class. Let me ask you this, let me ask you this. Working class voters may be all along. One of Trump's big appeals has been, he's a fighter. They like that. Whether it's picking on a news person or picking on Joe Biden and not letting

him get his answers out. Does that appeal to those working class voters who are like, yeah, get in there, keep busting up everything, bust up this debate, bust up big government, you know, like go for it. See, it's not stylistic. It's always been about fighting, but for what, to what end? It's fighting against a political establishment bent upon

wanting to sell their jobs out to China or institute political correctness or have a trade deal, you know, which is going to oppress them, which they can see with their very own eyes, ripped a factory out of their community. So it's a fighting to a certain political end. That's what it really is about. So I don't think we should read as much into the style because, and of course, look, the style is important, but it's all, it's all about what was underneath. I think a lot about that moment from 2016, where Trump brought this same level of energy and just ripped into Hillary about TPP, and about her flipping her position, talking about NAFTA, the giant sucking sound.

I didn't hear any of that. And if you brought that level of energy, coupled with that message, that's the winning formula about how you could excite these voters. Well, I mean, they went where Chris Wallace took them. So some of those subjects weren't teed up to give them the opening. But the whole mastery of a debate for a candidate is taking it where that Biden was able to be effective at all, he definitely was better at bringing the conversation to the place where voters actually are, and that is on the economy and on coronavirus. He had a couple of moments where he did sort of straight to the camera, you know, what people in the suburbs are really worried about is coronavirus and their jobs. We have the suburbs clip, so let's listen to that and then i'll get you to finish a crime it is crazy what's going on and he doesn't want to say law and order because he

can't because he'll lose his radical left supporters and once he does that it's over with but if he ever got to run this country and they ran it the way he would want to run it we would have we were suburbs would be gone by the way our suburbs would be gone and you would see problems like you've never seen before. He would know a suburb unless he took a wrong turn. Oh, I know suburbs. He would not. I was raised in the suburbs. This is not 1950.

All these dog whistles. Well, I mean, basically just sort of intervened there to try to say, I'm a man of the people and you're not, Mr. Fifth Avenue. Yeah, so he had, there's a couple things in that moment as it continues on. He really makes this direct appeal of like, no, actually what people are concerned about is being healthy and ultimately being able to send their kids to school and have a job and all of that. But you also see there a sort of failed strategy from Trump, which is to paint Biden as a radical leftist. This is a man who has a lot of things, but he's been in public life for decades and no one believes that he's Bernie Sanders. I mean,

this lands with no one outside of the Trump base. And this is not just me saying that. That's what the polling shows. This attack on him just doesn't land whatsoever. He had a better moment, Trump, that I think, you know, Sager can speak to where he talked about how long he'd been there and how little he'd done. That's a much more effective line of attack. But this idea that he's like a puppet of AOC and Bernie Sanders, frankly, I wish that was the case, but that is certainly not the Joe Biden that we've seen for decades in Washington. All right, here's that moment of 47 years versus 47 months. President Biden, you want to respond? Yeah, I do want to respond.

Look, the tax code that made him put him in a position that he pays less tax than a school teacher make on the money a school teacher makes is because of him. He says he's smart because he can take advantage of the tax code. And he does take advantage of the tax code. That's why I'm going to eliminate the trump tax cuts and we're going to i'm going to eliminate those taxes and make sure that we invest in the people who in fact need the help people out there need help but why didn't you do it over 20 in the last 25 years because you are president because you aren't president screwing things up you were were a senator. You're the worst president America has ever had. Come on.

Let me just tell you, Joe. I've done more in 47 months. I've done more than you've done in 47 years, Joe. Oh, yeah. And you know what? That is the original 2016 energy that took down Hillary. That was it. She's a member of the corrupt establishment.

I am the person who's coming in. I'm going to shake things up here in Washington. And that is where I agree with Crystal, which is that trying to paint Biden as a tool of the radical left, I mean, it's very like an RNC strategy. You hear that type of stuff about Mitt Romney. Mitt Romney probably would have run a very similar type of campaign. This time around, it should have been the same callback to Biden is not a tool of the radical left. He's a tool of the globalist establishment, of the same ones that we beat in 2016. Then he

could have pivoted more towards issues like on China and on trade. And you saw, I mean, look, Biden was outright lying whenever it came to several of the allegations against Hunter Biden. And Trump, I thought, did a fairly effective job in some cases of at least pushing back against that and having some things which if reporters wanted to check them, I doubt they will. There's actually quite a lot there. So bringing up the corruption angle and the tool of the establishment 47 years is a damning indictment because Americans, 14% of Americans right now say they like the path of America. But you know, if you look and you go back and you see what the underlying bubbling of discontent, it didn't end with Trump's presidency. And instead of trying to paint a rosier picture, he could paint one of we're in a crisis, we're going to get out of it,

but we're not going back to the 2012 years, which you all rejected in 2016. Crystal, what do you think about that moment with Hunter where Biden switched to, to Beau Biden, you know, the, his, his rising star son who died, you know, two years ago, or a couple years ago, and, and, you know, Trump stayed laser focused on Hunter and really went after him. And then Trump sort of, and then Biden switched again into what I think was an attempt to be more sympathetic towards his son, talked about his drug problem with cocaine. You know, Biden was sort of over there defending his boys and trying to get empathy from the audience. And Trump was basically saying, I'm not going to talk about Beau, but no, Hunter, it's not about his drug problem. It's about his money problem and him exploiting your position to line his own pocket to the millions. Well, let's first talk about the

substance, which is that, look, what Hunter did, the money that he took overseas and with barricades and all of this, like Democrats are very uncomfortable talking about this and want to just be like, oh, he didn't do anything wrong. Just because something is not illegal doesn't mean that it's OK. And Biden's response was basically just to outright lie and say there was nothing to see here. However, because Trump did go after Hunter on his drug use, I thought he had managed to make a person who is fundamentally sort of unsympathetic, Hunter Biden, into a sympathetic character. You know, Biden rightfully got sort of outraged about the attack and said, look, a lot of people are struggling with addiction. And again, this is a flip from what Trump did in 2016 when he spoke very compassionately about the opioid crisis that has ripped through our country and upended lives. You know, coast to coast.

You can scarcely meet a person who hasn't been impacted by this crisis. Especially in Ohio. What's that? Especially in Ohio. A hundred percent. Trump needs to win. Some of the worst, you know, some of the hardest hit places in this country are key swing districts. And it was a major part of his appeal last time around.

So I thought that was kind of a swing and a miss and look the big moment that's going to get replayed over and over on cable news with some justification is when trump sort of struggled to condemn white supremacists which plays into the worst caricatures of him and his frankly is sort of hectoring and bullying personality also plays into the worst caricature of him at a time when it's a different moment than 2016 people wanted a chaos agent let me just ask you that because he did say he said wallace asked him will you condemn white supremacy and he said sure and there was then he said do it and then it meandered to proud boys there's a hand you know there was a hand ring there was a pause and then ultimately says this bizarre like stand by and stand back it wasn't a great look for him and harken back to charlottesville

and other things that were problematic for him but you know it's such a different moment from 2016 people wanted someone to upend the apple cart now they the sleepy joe like the ability to just go back to sleep has never sounded more appealing when you have so much ambient chaos. I wondered like there wasn't there wasn't the clever one liners or the clever nicknames, you know, I just thought I thought that Trump did such a good job with little Marco. I realized it was diminishing and it was disrespectful. And he used to call Ted Cruz Lion Ted, Low Energy Jeb. I mean, look, we still remember them. You know, four years later, they come right to your mind.

And that, like, Low Energy Jeb just killed Jeb Bush. He hasn't been able to land it with Sleepy Joe. I don't know. I don't think that's what most people think of. Although the contrast in approach last night in style may have underscored it subliminally. What do you think, Sagar? Yeah, I mean, it goes back to what Crystal just said. For a lot of people, Sleepy actually sounds decent right now. approach last night in style may have underscored it subliminally. What do you think, Sagar? Yeah, I mean, it goes back to what Crystal just said. For a lot of people, Sleepy actually sounds decent right now. And so leaning into Sleepy doesn't exactly seem, I mean, Lil Marco, it seemed

to be like, oh, here's this young senator, too big for his britches, wants to be president. I'm a big businessman. Lion Ted, I mean, it was, again, it was like, this man will say anything that wants to be president. Low Energy Jeb was about the fact that this is an establishment Republican who's not actually going to fight for the wants and needs of the Republican base. This time around, Sleepy Joe does not encapsulate it in the same way. I mean, Crooked Hillary, again, I can't think of anything better to describe like so much of the political establishment that she represented, the type of politics, her many years around Washington. That was a dagger to the heart of what the core argument against her was. And in this particular case, this isn't the strategy that

again, they should be leaning into against Biden. I think that they've misread the situation from the very beginning. And we say this all the time on our show, it's not a secret, which is that trying to lean into the rosy picture of America, especially right now at a time like this, and not instead leaning back onto the original way that you won the presidency by indicting the forces that are keeping so many Americans down and feeling as if they have no agency in the political process has just been a major strategic mistake. So Sleepy, I think from the beginning, didn't encapsulate like a core policy argument against Biden, and that there was something about that that has just gone astray for him recently. So what do you guys think? I mean, are we going to have additional debates? I think 100% we are. And that was all nonsense that we know. Why would he, why would Joe Biden go forward with another debate? Because the American people want it. I mean, that was one of the things Frank Lund's focus group was saying was some of the people who were undecided were like, I can't wait till the next debate because I really

do need something to help me make up my mind because they couldn't hear a damn word last night. People deserve so much better. And that was what really made me mad than what they got well i mean if both men lose and then one man is down seven points in the real clear politics average then by default you generally lost and so i think that's it like i said if there's no game change moment if you're not able to actually convince large swaths of voters to come back to your side or to come out who generally don't vote and back you, then that's what this is all about. It's not a style competition. This is about winning an election.

And I don't think that there was anything last night for Trump that is going to help him win the 2020 presidential election. It always morphs into a bit of a style election. All right, I'll take the final word by saying I think the big loser last night was us, the American people, the viewers, and I think the big winner was Kanye West. Definitely. He was the real beneficiary of that hot mess of a debate we watched. You guys, thank you so much for coming on. Thank you, Megan. Great to be with you. See you soon. My thanks to all my guests today and a word of request to you.

Do me a favor and go subscribe to the show. You know, we're new, so we want you to subscribe and you have to download it. Don't just listen to it. You got to click download, which is apparently more meaningful. And most importantly, then you have to rate and review it. So go ahead. Just give it five stars. I don't care if it's sincere. Just do it for me.

And write out a review because I've actually, you know, I've been reading them. And don't write anything nasty. That's what Twitter's for. You can go hit me over there. Here, the review should be either vanilla or kind. I don't request a lot, but those are the things I would appreciate. Subscribe, download, rate, and review. Thank you. Thank you for helping me out. And listen, we're going to be back tomorrow. We'll have another episode for you tomorrow and you're going to love it. It's with Ben Shapiro and he's roaring. He's rip roaring and ready to go. But I also asked him something really interesting and I think you're going to find his response fascinating. Does all the abuse he gets, does all the abuse and the bullying he gets, you know, he gives it out okay, but he gets it bad. And his family gets harassed,

and the college campuses where they try to shout him off. Does it bother him? Does it get to him? Does it ever make him reconsider what he's doing? You'll hear the answer tomorrow. The Megyn Kelly Show is a Devil May Care media production in collaboration with Red Seat Ventures.