The Megyn Kelly Show - The Rise in Anti-Jewish and Anti-Asian Violence in America, with Ron Dermer and Ying Ma | Ep. 108

Episode Date: May 28, 2021

Megyn Kelly is joined by Ron Dermer, former Israeli Ambassador to the U.S., and Ying Ma, author of "Chinese Girl in the Ghetto," to talk about what's behind the rise of anti-Jewish and anti-Asian violence in America and around the world, as well as the status of the Israel-Hamas ceasefire, the media coverage of Israel-Gaza violence and Israel generally, what's behind the BDS movement, why Israel is so important to the United States, how Asian Americans are treated by leftist activists, the tensions between Asian and Black communities in America, and more.Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms:Twitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShowFind out more information at:https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show and happy Friday. So excited today to have the former Israeli ambassador to the United States, Ron Dermer. Big, big fan of his. He came on the Kelly file a bunch of times. He is with us to talk about the increasing and disturbing rise of attacks against Jewish Americans, against Jewish people in Europe and beyond in the wake of this conflict that has now entered a ceasefire. But the attacks have not, sadly. And we've been seeing, you know, from coast to coast here in

america disturbing tape of jewish americans just going about their business getting attacked in very violent upsetting ways so we're going to get into that and also i'll ask him whether he thinks the ceasefire is going to hold and then we're going to be joined by ying ma she's great she's written such good stuff and she's just kind of fearless and talking about these issues she's an author of a book called chinese girl in the Ghetto, because she talks about getting to know freedom from post Mao China, to moving to Oakland, California, which she did when she was 10 years old, experienced a lot of a lot of anti Asian sentiment out there, but sort of nose to the grindstone, worked her way up, went to Cornell, went to Stanford Law School, and has been instrumental

in fighting against some of this anti Asian bias that we're seeing, whether to Stanford Law School, and has been instrumental in fighting against some of this anti-Asian bias that we're seeing, whether it's at universities or some of these attacks that have been increasing in the past year. We've seen a lot of black on Asian violence in the past few months and years, and the mainstream media doesn't want to touch it. They don't want to seem like they're condemning all black people, which of course we're not either. We just have to look at the dynamic here when it comes to these violent attacks and figure out why. And why does the mainstream media keep telling us that that's white supremacy? So we're going to have a good talk about it. I think you're

going to enjoy both of our guests today. To Ambassador Dermer first in one second, but first this. Ambassador, how are you? I'm fine. How are you? I'm great. Great to hear your voice again. Thank you. Okay, so let's start with the latest news, and then we'll get to what seems to be a very clear rise in the anti-Semitic attacks, not just here in the United States, but in Europe and beyond. But I'd love to get, as the man who was the ambassador from Israel to the U.S. for eight years, I'd love to get your thoughts on the ceasefire. It's a bilateral ceasefire as of last Friday. It's holding for now. What's your confidence level that it will continue to? Well, I'm pretty confident that it will hold for some period of time. I think the question is

how long, because this, as you know, is the fourth round that we've had. We had a round of violence in 2008, 2009, where we had a lot of rockets fired into Israel. It happened again in 2012. It happened a third time in 2014. And now it happened a fourth time at this level in 2021. We had several rounds in between those rounds that were smaller. But in terms of major hundreds and thousands, really, of rockets fired at Israel, those were the four rounds. So I think the question is, is Hamas deterred? Because our military objective in this operation was to exact such a heavy price from Hamas that it would regret having started this in the first place when they lobbed rockets into Israel. And it also would

think not twice, three or four times, but 10 times before doing it in the future. And so we degraded a lot of their capabilities. We took out about 200 terrorists. We took out about 80 or 90 percent of their manufacturing capability of their weapons. We took out a 80 or 90 percent of their manufacturing capability of their weapons. We took out a subterranean tunnel network. It's sort of like an underground city in Gaza with all of these tunnels where they move fighters from one place to the other and arms from one place to the other. And we took out a good chunk of that as well. So they paid a heavy price. Now, is it heavy enough that they will keep their powder dry for a significant period of time? I don't know. I think there'll be some period. I don't have to fire at Tel Aviv, even if they fire at Sderot, which is a community several kilometers away

from Gaza? Are we going to treat that rocket fire the same way we would treat rocket fire at Jerusalem or Tel Aviv? That's one question. And Israel's government has made it clear that it will treat it the same. So hopefully they will be turned by that. And the second thing, which I think is even more important, are we going to act to prevent Hamas from rearming? Because what they do during these periods between these major conflagrations is they rearm themselves and they upgrade their capabilities. And so are we going to take action to stop that? How do they do that? How do they do that given, you know, the Israeli control of Hamas at the border and the do, one thing they do, and they did in the past, is they smuggled weapons through. It was years ago, they were going, weapons that come from Iran, they were going to Sudan, that would then go up through the Sinai,

and ultimately, through the several kilometers of the border between Gaza and Egypt, in the Sinai, they would smuggle it into hundreds of tunnels, underground tunnels that they have all of these rockets. But they got a little bit smarter about it. And instead of smuggling those rockets in, because we work to prevent that and the Egyptians actually helped prevent it. And we worked to interdict it at different places along that path. They started learning how to manufacture it themselves. And with Iranian support that sent them experts, sent them a lot of money, they learned how to actually build these rockets. That's what they do. That's the expertise that they've developed. And then that they need

supplies, right? They need iron. They need different things to build their war machine. They certainly need concrete because that whole underground terror tunnel network, the subterranean tunnel network that I spoke about, that was largely with concrete. Well, how do they get that concrete? Well, what happens is the world, after it finishes bashing Israel, says, you know, Israel, you've got to let all these humanitarian supplies in. And so we would like to see Gaza rebuilt and to have schools and to have hospitals and to have all this. But what happens is you bring those humanitarian supplies in and they take the concrete and the steel and they use it to build their war machine because that's what they're interested in. And we can decide to not let anything in. But then you're dealing with a humanitarian, a very difficult humanitarian situation in Gaza. And when we let it in and we try the best we can to try to put restraints on

that. So the U.N. officials will say, yes, we need X amount of concrete and it's going to go to build, you know, these 100 houses and these five buildings and everything. And you try to monitor it. But you're dealing with a terror organization that is running this whole show. We just saw President Biden, Secretary of State Blinken say he's been in the Middle East this week. He said that he informed Abbas, head of the Palestinian Authority and Netanyahu of Israel, that the United States will seek an additional 75 million in Congress for the Palestinians. They said in total, we are in the process of providing this is the United States more than 360 million of urgent support for the Palestinian people. We'll work with our partners to ensure that Hamas does not benefit from these reconstruction efforts. So he, Blinken says he's trying to do exactly what you're speaking of, help the people,

not the terrorist organization running Gaza. Do you have faith that will actually happen? I have faith in their sincerity. I mean, I think they want it to happen, but it won't fully happen. You know, the question is, what percentage are they going to be able to siphon off? Is it 10%, 20%, 50%? I don't know. It really depends what happens. And it gets to the point that I said before. If Israel has intelligence that there is a manufacturing facility in Gaza that is building missiles, you know, a thousand rockets that are going to be fired on Tel Aviv. Everything is calm, right? No one's even focused on Gaza. If Israel's military says, you know what, we're going to take that out because we're going to

preempt the next round. When we fire that rocket and we share that intelligence, when we fire precision guided missiles to take out that manufacturing facility and we share that intelligence with the United States. Will America back us? Will the rest of the world back us? Or will they say now we're starting a conflict? You know, that's one of the tests that we'll have moving forward is not just our response to their attacks,

but do we actually preempt their ability and prevent their ability to rebuild their war machine? And we should have partners in the international community. But again, we've got a terror organization running that network. You know, if you're putting it in American terms, you know, imagine the mafia. And these guys are much worse than the mafia, right? They're terrorists. They target civilians.

They use civilians as human shields. They're also, by the way, a genocidal force. They call for the murder of Jews across the world. People don't like to talk about that because it's uncomfortable for them. This is an organization that celebrated on 9-11 and actually mourned the death of bin Laden. That's what we're dealing with. But let's say you have mafia that controls an area. So you think all the concrete is going to go exactly where you want it to go. So it becomes a question of what mechanisms do you put in place to limit it? So I don't think it's going to be 100% effective. I hope that you'll have partners to make it as effective as possible. And we have to think about it or else we're going to be in round five very fast. It won't be years, certainly won't be decades, it might even be several months. Do you think Hamas, of course, has declared victory in this conflict? And in some ways, I see their point, because I feel like the media was much more skeptical of, to put it

charitably, of Israel this time around than they were. I mean, they in large part ignored what Hamas did to kick this thing off, which let's not forget, there were tensions in Israel, but they were the ones who fired the rockets first. They were the ones who went to death and destruction first. And you tell me what you think of how the media, especially here in the States, has portrayed what just went on in these 11 days. I think it's frankly pretty shameful when you're dealing with a terror organization on one side that has no value for human life, not the life of their own people, not the life, certainly, of Israelis. It doesn't matter to them, Jews, Arabs, it doesn't matter. They just are indiscriminately firing rockets, and they're embedding all of their military terrorist infrastructure in civilian areas.

You know, they have headquarters underneath the hospital. Why do they do that? Because they think Israel's evil? No, because they know that we're not going to attack the hospital and kill all these people. And they put their facilities and rocket launchers and all sorts of weapons of war right next to schools, right next to mosques, because they put us in this impossible dilemma, which is they're going to attack us and we have to go after them. And even in the most surgical way, we can't attack them and hit them without having any civilian casualties. And we do everything. And I think no country in the history of the world. And it's not an exaggeration. No country in the history of the world has taken such measures to put the civilians of the enemy

out of harm's way. It's never happened before. The numbers are coming in about what happened and the number of people died. And it looks like there will be more terrorists who were killed than civilians and noncombatants, meaning a greater than one to one ratio. Now, you probably know about the ratios when you're fighting in dense areas like in Afghanistan and Iraq. Sometimes it's nine to one, meaning nine civilians for every terrorist, because all the terrorists do this all over the world. And it's not just a question for Israel, meaning when the media turns against Israel, it's not just a problem for Israel. Of course, it is a problem for us. But you're actually giving license to all these terrorists around the world to start using civilians as human shields. And the media here has an important responsibility and a real responsibility here because the game that Hamas plays, they fired us, we respond. And when

innocents are killed, then all the pressure comes to bear on Israel. They are relying on that last step, that all the pressure comes to bear on Israel. That only works if the media lets them get away with it. The media becomes the key player there in this whole game that Hamas plays. If the media, I'm not suggesting that the media doesn't show the pictures, doesn't tell the stories. I'm suggesting that they blame the terror organization that are putting those people in harm's way and not blame Israel. And you have some, you know, people in the media, you have, I saw, you know, John Oliver and Trevor Noah, and it's just total nonsense. It's almost obscene what they've done and how they're treating this conflict. And they're saying, well, well, it's not really a fair fight. You know, Israel's much stronger than Hamas. I mean, mean really is it a fair fight between the United

States and Al-Qaeda is it a fair fight between the United States and ISIS maybe they should just allow like hundreds thousands of Americans to die because America is much more powerful I mean it was sickening I was listening to these people and it's there's an, and you've probably heard it before, called a brilliant idiot. And there's definitely moral idiocy with what I saw. 20 times as many Germans died as Americans in World War II. Does that mean that the Nazis were right? And I think it's sad. It is really, I think, a mark of a decline in the culture and the educational system, is we live in a world, Megan, where young people think might makes wrong. That's their view. Anything that is powerful

is bad. Power and justice to them are like buckets in the well. That's a problem for Israel, which is a powerful country because we're no longer a powerless, stateless people. We now have power, and the Palestinians have succeeded in convincing much of the world that they're the David to Israel's Goliath, which in itself is absurd. But it's also, I will tell you more than that, this idea that might makes wrong. This is a danger for Jews, not just for Israel, because Jews are in a position of influence in the United States. You know, they're not living, tend to a room on the Lower East Side like they did a century ago. And in a world where anybody who has influence, anybody who has, in this perception of

what power is, power is bad, that's a very, very dangerous world. And the same forces who are attacking Israel, there's a reason they're going after Jews as well. And I see this as a huge problem, and it has to be rejected because you can be powerful and just, you can be powerful and unjust. You can be weak and just, and you can be weak and unjust. And I think America is the best example of a very powerful country that has been a tremendous force for good in the world. Ask all those people attacking Israel and attacking Jews in the streets. Ask them if they think America is a force for good in the world. I bet you every single one of them thinks America is a force for bad. That's the problem. And when people get churned out of schools and believe in this nonsense, and they can teach them that America's imperfect, just like every

country in the world is, and Israel's imperfect. But if they no longer believe in the basic justice of the cause of a country, then there's a much bigger problem at stake. And I think a lot of this, a lot of the hostility to Israel, comes because we're the low-hanging fruit of a much broader problem in the zeitgeist, much broader cultural problem that is anti-Western, anti-American. You know, the zeitgeist that says, that preaches moral relativism, post-nationalism, you know, and pacifism. And every time Israel engages in a military action, you almost see all of this come to the surface when we have to defend ourselves. And I think the answer lies in the universities and the schools in the United States more than in what Israel will do with this or that policy. That's fascinating. That's such a fascinating assessment.

It feels so right to me. And, you know, we talk about the media coverage, John Oliver, Trevor Noah. They they mimic, they mirror what they hear from the far left, the far left in this country. People like, let's take Ilhan Omar, who said we need accountability for every war crime that happened in this conflict. Now, she's not talking about Hamas. She doesn't even obey any of those rules. She's talking about Israel. Then you've got Cori Bush, who's her counterpart there, who says ethnic cleansing continues by Israel, she means. We must stop funding the apartheid status quo. And you get that word a lot. Rashida Tlaib here said, again, the ceasefire will not alone achieve equity for those who live under Israel's apartheid government, AOC. It's illegal for the United States to provide military aid to governments that are violating human rights,

right? They all are very clear that Israel is the demon here. Israel is the one to be condemned, and Israel is the one committing war crimes. And that's accepted by many pundits in our public sphere here, who run media and have a large microphone. Absolutely. And you use the right word, demon. The demonization of the Jews is a very, very old problem. And these people have no, I mean, not only is it shameful and outrageous and moral idiocy, but it's dangerous. Because if you are saying that another country is an apartheid state or is in ethnic cleansing or genocidal force, then you're basically saying you should attack that country and wipe it out. What does it mean? You're saying

that Israel's evil. I mean, for those people who say Israel's an apartheid state, they should go to an Israeli hospital where they'll see Jewish and Arab doctors working together to save lives. They should go to an Israeli university where they'll see Jewish and Arab students learning together. They should go to the Israeli Knesset where they'll see Jewish and Arab members of the Knesset or an Israeli courtroom. It's outrageous. But this is an attempt to demonize Israel. And with those people who do it, whether they do it knowingly or not, in the case of some of the people you do it, whether they do it knowingly or not, in the case of some of the people you mentioned, I think they do it knowingly, they are setting it up for destruction. That's what every attack against Jews, historically

speaking, and I think people don't understand antisemitism. And part of the reason, frankly, Megan, is the Holocaust. The Holocaust was such a seismic event in the history of the Jewish people. We lost a third of our people in the Holocaust. Six million Jews were murdered. And if you're trying to understand that in American terms, that's over 100 million Americans. And if you can't wrap your mind around that, imagine a 9-11 every day for a century. That's what the Holocaust did to the Jewish people. Okay? So it is such a seismic event that it actually prevents us from recognizing the antisemitism that was there for 20, 25 centuries before the Holocaust, it's almost like it's a blinding sun that blocks out all the stars in the sky. And the stars are there. You just can't see them with the sun. And if you take the Holocaust out of the equation, you have century after century after century of anti-Semitic attacks against Jews. And across the world, it's across time, space, culture, civilization, and Jews are

attacked for anything that they're attacked for. They're also attacked for the opposite. So they're attacked for being the communists and they were attacked for being the capitalists. They're attacked for being ethnic separatists and for being ruthless cosmopolitans. They're always attacked for everything. And it's a, you know, it's an interesting question that you can't do in one podcast, the nature of antisemitism or where it comes from. But what these people are doing is they are demonizing the Jews. And that's a very,

very big powder keg. What happened in the, where the journalists were, the AP journalists and the Al Jazeera, right? You saw that whole building, 15 stories came down. You had Hamas intelligence that was in that building. That makes it, according to the rules of war, a legitimate military target. And what Israel did, because we are a society that values life, is we called and we told everybody, get out of the building. Yeah. And when I see a 15- We talked about this on the show last week. And Netanyahu came out and said, you weren't lucky. A reporter said, we were so lucky we barely got out. And he said, that wasn't luck. That was us calling you. Yeah. But when I see a 15 story building come down and not a single person killed,

that shows me how the concern that Israel has for human life. Okay. But wait, let me ask you about the numbers. I want to say one thing about Trevor Noah, because I saw Trevor Noah get on TV also the same moral idiocy. And I saw him say, well, how should you respond if you're the more powerful party? And then he talks about his brother, a young kid. And how much am I going to fight back? Really? But let me ask you something. I'd ask Trevor Noah. What happens if that young brother killed two of his siblings and then chopped his arm off?

You think when your young brother came at you as a knife, you're not going to actually defend yourself? I mean, please. We got Israelis who were murdered by this organization. Let me ask you just a quick question, OK? On the subject of Israel being an apartheid state, Alan Dershowitz was on the program last week, and he was giving us some numbers. The reason you can't say that even, you know, arguably about any other country in the neighborhood is because there's no mix. There is no mix of popularity. There are no Jews in the surrounding countries. At least Israel's got, what, I think 2 million Arabs living inside of its border. So there is a mix of people there, not to mention what's happening in Gaza and West

Bank and all that. I just thought it was an interesting point. Like, why isn't anybody taking issue with the population in Jordan, right? Where there's there's no mix of population or people. Because this is all about attacking Jews, Megan. This is not being pro-Palestinian. I'll explain to you what I mean by that. It has nothing to do with the Palestinians. This is just a canvas for people to go after Jews. Look, Jews are people who care about their brothers all over the world. So if

Jews are being attacked in France, Jews care. If Jews are being attacked in Britain, they care. Israel has every day on the news about the attacks that happened in New York, in Los Angeles, and other places in the United States. And we feel a deep sense of solidarity with our Jewish brothers. You know, we feel solidarity as fellow human beings to tragedies everywhere. But when it's happening to your own co-religionists, there's an immediate sense. Where is Palestinian protest? And where is the solidarity with the Palestinians who are in Syria, who were slaughtered in mass by Assad? Where is the solidarity with Palestinians living in Lebanon, who are not second class citizens, they're fourth

class citizens who can't work, who are systematically disgruntled? I don't hear anything about that. And where is it in Jordan, with all the things that have happened there? They don't. It is only when it is Israel and people have taken this conflict and have blown it all out of proportion in terms of what it means for international peace and security in a way that I think it's based on the demonization of the Jews. Look, I'll tell you a brief story that I think will capture the point. So I was ambassador, you mentioned, I was almost seven and a half years ambassador to the United States. One thing that happens when new ambassadors come to Washington is they always ask for meetings with other ambassadors, usually 10 by tradition. So when I came, I met with the Egyptian ambassador, the Jordanian ambassador, German ambassador,

French ambassador. So one day I have the ambassador of Burundi. I sit down with this ambassador, very intelligent man. And I start asking different questions. What do you export there? What do you make? What do you produce? What's your economy like? What's your growth rates? All these questions that you would ask, macro questions about an economy. And then I asked him about what he's trying to achieve in the United States as ambassador. What are the U.S. relations with Burundi? And I asked him another question. Do you have a security problem with Burundi? He says to me, not since 2004. I said, well, what happened in 2004? He said, well, we had a kind of peace process or ceasefire because we had a decade of violence that preceded it that spilled over from Rwanda. The genocide in Rwanda spilled over into Burundi, and we had a terrible decade. And in 2004, that killing stopped. And I asked him, you know, how many people died in that decade? And he told me 300,000, right? And I said to him, well, let me ask you something.

How many people you think have died in the history of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict? And this is a very intelligent person. And he's thinking about it. And he said 2 million. A century of conflict between 1920, where the first violent attacks were, without getting into who's right, who's wrong. How many people you think have died? And he said 2 million. And I said,

listen, you're close. You're only off by about two zeros. It's about 20,000, about 22, 23,000 on both sides in a century. And he was so stunned. He couldn't believe it. He said, well, then why is the world so focused on this problem? And I said, well, you've got to think about that very deeply. Why does Israel generate this type of sentiment? And it is an attempt, there's no question about it, to demonize the Jewish state, to cast the Jewish state as a force for evil. And the truth is, you know, Israel, it's not the cause or the cure for antisemitism. The difference is that Israel gave the Jewish people the power to fight back. That's the difference with the birth of Israel. But the antisemitism has returned. It's returned in full force. And from what I've seen, and I have to commend President Biden, because I think President Biden has spoke out forcefully against it. But he not only backed Israel's right to defend itself, but he has spoken forcefully out against anti-Semitism.

He's not, you know, he's old school, as we say. And he's somebody who understands that problem. But there are a lot of other people that at best, as you said, they're silent. They're not willing to push back. And it's the cultural players like Oliver and Noah. They're the ones who I think are the most playing with fire now with probably not even understanding it. And I'm not even saying that, you know, you you can be anti Larry Summers, who was president of Harvard. He was your treasury secretary in the past. He said you can be anti-Semitic in effect without being anti-Semitic in intent. So I don't think Oliver or Noah were thinking that they were saying something anti-Semitic,

but the demonization of the Jews is a very, very dangerous thing to do. Up next, the increase in attacks on Jewish people in America, in Europe, and beyond. What's causing it? What's really causing it? We'll get to that in one minute. You've got people like Brett Stevens,

columnist now for the New York Times, formerly the Wall Street Journal, who said, who pointed out that a lot of these same commentators, a couple of whom you've mentioned, they had a very different message of allyship when it came to black Americans and the police, right? And Brett Stevens points out if there's been a massive online campaign of progressive allyship with Jewish people, I've missed it. Corporate executives with workplace memos reaching out to their employees who may be fearful, no, missed it. Academic associations issuing public letters denouncing the wave of anti-Semitism we're seeing, nope. And what he said was, and I quote, in the land of inclusiveness, Jews are denied inclusion. And there's a real trend now that we're seeing. I mean, you just turn on the news any day now, and it's right there as plain as day, anti-Semitic attacks across the United States from LA to New York and beyond, by the way,

over in Europe, in European capitals. We're seeing attacks. We're seeing the Star of David be desecrated. We're seeing college students talk about being fearful to go on campus, Jewish college students. I'm just going to tick off a couple of examples. Okay. So in 2019, more than 2,100 anti-Semitic incidents here in the United States, which was more than any prior year. In 2020, when most of us were home, not doing anything, it went up. It was the third highest on record. Okay. So here's a couple of examples. May 20 home, not doing anything, it went up. It was the third highest on record.

Okay, so here's a couple of examples. May 20th, New York City, Jewish man beaten by pro-Palestinian protesters. This guy, he gets off of a subway. These Palestinian protesters, I guess, start chasing him. He gets surrounded by the mob. They kick him. They punch him. They beat him.

They mace him. They pepper spray him. He gets a concussion. He gets bruises. He gets a black eye. They called him, forgive me, him. He gets a concussion. He gets bruises. He gets a black eye. They called him, forgive me, a filthy Jew, a dirty Jew, said Hamas is going to kill all of you. Israel will burn. And then this 23 year old Wasim Awada was arrested, said I would do it all over again. And then Wasim was released on bail. There is videotape of his friend hoisting Wasim up on his shoulders as he was released on bail

as they chanted free Palestine and saying this guy, and I quote, is a fucking hero. We saw in LA on May 22nd, Jewish diners attacked by pro-Palestinian group yelling racial slurs in Brooklyn.

Fire was set to a synagogue in a Jewish school, put a Jewish teen in a chokehold for refusing to repeat anti-Semitic slurs. Another was chased with a baseball bat. In Florida, Halandal Beach, Florida, a man dumped human patrols have now increased and are protecting Jewish people in Los Angeles. They've increased in New York. They've increased in London. And it just seems like hardly a day goes by that we don't see something like this. And this sort of Twitter pile on, you know, sort of dovetails with it, right? You've got, as you point out, a hashtag about Hitler. Hitler was right. There was another one. Hitler, the great hashtag Hitler, the great.

We've had at least three journalists now be outed, lose their jobs for anti-Semitic comments. There was one woman at the let me see where I'm glad to hear that somebody lost the job. I didn't know that. That's the best. Oh, it's amazing. Well, I mean, you you really have to go far. I'll just give you one example. Here is Adele Raja, CNN freelance contributor, who tweeted out, it turns out in 2014, hail Hitler. And in 2014, the only reason I'm supporting Germany in the finals is Hitler was a German and he did good with those Jews. And you might think, oh, well, maybe he was on drugs back in 14. Maybe something happened to this person. He hit his head and he got better.

No. May of 21, quote, the world needs a Hitler. So that's that's our American media. Then there's a BBC investigative journalist who tweeted this month. Hitler was right. No, sorry. This is from 2004. Israel's more Nazi than Hitler.

Before adding Hitler was right. She tweeted Zionists can't get enough of our blood. Stupid Zionist. Israel's more Nazi than Hitler before adding Hitler was right. She tweeted Zionist can't get enough of our blood, stupid Zionist. She's been hired. She was hired by the BBC and has been covering this conflict in Gaza for the BBC. I could go on. So the problem runs deep. I'm sure their coverage was perfectly fair with that woman in charge. I'm sure. I'm sure. But does it this feels to me like some something of a watershed moment for American Jews, for for Jews in Europe who, you know, not not perfectly, but have been living peacefully and in love and with the support of their countrymen for a long, long time. And now things seem to be they just feel different to me, Ambassador. They feel different to me.

Well, in Europe, this has been going on for a long time. There's been attacks against Jews in Europe. I think it has accelerated in the United States. But I also want to put that in perspective because a lot of this where 11 people were murdered in the worst anti-Semitic violence in American history. And I went there. I was a sitting ambassador. And I went there right after the attack, as any Israeli ambassador would, to the scene of this horrific attack. And I was interviewed right after. And I was just there to express my solidarity with the community. And the first question from the journalist, is Trump responsible for this attack? That's what it was about. And it was sort of shocking,

as if antisemitism started in May 2015, when Donald Trump came down an escalator. As I said before, we've had antisemitism for 25 centuries. And it's a constant problem. And all people want to do, I was actually shocked at how fast this issue became politicized. And then there were reports that came out in about the number, the rise in antisemitism in 2017. And there was a huge increase. It went up by 25%, which was true and very disturbing. And for most people, it was all about Trump, all about Trump. And what they didn't tell you was that those FBI statistics that went up 25% in 2017, they actually reached the level of every single year between 2000 and 2010 in terms of the number of attacks. Meaning back in 2017, we went back to what we had between 2000 and 2010. It's just it didn't fit a narrative. When something fits a narrative for

people, then they have a kind of intellectual filing system, they can put it in a file. If it doesn't fit, then they have a problem dealing with it. And now the issue is here. No one, I think, in their right mind is saying, well, President Biden's responsible for the anti-Semitic violence. No, he's not. And I don't think Trump was responsible for the anti-Semitic violence. I think a leader has a responsibility to speak out forcefully against anti-Semitism. And I said publicly at the time in 2017, I think Trump did not say the right thing after Charlottesville happened. But after Pittsburgh, boy, did he say the. He went to Pittsburgh, the site of this attack. And I remember no other American leaders were with him. It was a couple of weeks before the midterms and they were all out there campaigning. And I said to myself, you have the worst attack in US history and people can't put politics aside and go and stand there with the president of the United States and send a message to the anti-Semites that this is unacceptable? No, it was all politics. And until you have people

who are willing to call out anti-Semitism on their side of the aisle, not just when it's on the other side and it's politically convenient, but on your side of the aisle, you're not going to get beyond that. And I think the demand has to come, has to come that people have to speak forcefully out against antisemitism and as leaders do whatever they can to push back. And the silence here is definitely, you had, you mentioned Congresswoman Omar. I think a watershed moment was when her party did not reject what she said. They wouldn't condemn her. They would not condemn her.

And then leaders in her party will start taking pictures with her. Oh, yeah. There's no pushback on that. We'll appear on the cover. There's a difference, but there's one difference. It's important not to be political about antisemitism because there's antisemitism on the right and there's antisemitism on the left. But there is a difference. There's a difference between David Duke and Louis Farrakhan, who is a raving antisemite. You know what the difference is, Megan?

No one will take a picture with David Duke. That's the difference. That's a good point. I know you've got Chelsea Handler tweeting out Louis Farrakhan videos like he's just some regular pundit, like he's a CNN contributor. And even when it's called to her attention what he said about about Jewish people, termites and so on. She doesn't care. She doesn't care. Can I ask you, though? Let me just ask you this, because what the other side would say is, well, you know, it's tough to say.

Who's the other side? is, well, you know, it's tough to say. This is just about, you know, people who defend, I don't know that anybody's defending the anti-Semitic attacks. But what people defending the Palestinians would say is their people are angry. They feel that they've been treated unjustly. They feel Israel's boot on the neck of the Palestinians who want to live freely in Gaza. And yes, they elected a bad, bad organization for, you know, as leaders, Hamas. But how does that make us feel better about the 10 year old girl whose home gets bombed and she gets killed or her brother gets killed? And you know that the argument is that Israel to the to the Trevor Noah point, I'm just going to, you know, tee it up. Maybe not the way he put it, but that

how can we justify the killing of what they say was more than 100 women and children killed in Gaza? You know, so it wasn't all militants based on the fact that we did get some militants firing weapons. It doesn't make us feel better about the babies who were killed by Israeli bombs. So to those people who are who are saying, I understand why those Palestinian activists are mad on the streets. I don't like what they said. I don't like violence, but I understand why they're upset. What say you? Well, first of all, everybody should be moved by civilians who are killed. You have to have a heart of stone to not be moved by that. And the last thing Israel wants to do is to kill civilians. And we don't target civilians. Our success in an operation,

in a military operation, is when no civilians, no noncombatants are killed. That was the measure of our success. And the more civilians who were killed, the worse the operation is, and the greater the failure. For Hamas, it's just the opposite. If they fire a rocket and they kill one civilian, that's good for them. If they kill five, better. If they kill 10, 20, 30, they'll just be happier and happier. And to not understand that moral difference is wrong. And for people to say, look, look at these people out there and look at the pictures they're seeing and look, and you have to understand what they're facing. Look, when Jews were being murdered in mass, OK. You didn't see mobs of Jews attacking Muslims in the United States for what other Muslims around the world were doing, these terrorists.

They didn't do it. So how can anyone in their right mind justify that now it's open season on Jews in America because of what is happening in Israel? And the problem, Megan, I'm going to get to it again. It's the same problem. If Trevor Noah and Oliver and other peoples in the commanding heights of the culture of the United States accuse Israel of genocide, of war crimes, of ethnic cleansing, of apartheid, then they are contributing to that open season on Jews. They are saying these are people worthy of being attacked. And those people who would proudly hold up an Israeli flag, they're proudly holding this flag of evil to them. That's how they're depicting it. And so the onus is on them to not say that when a media lies about what Hamas is doing, when they don't pin the blame on Hamas for putting those civilians in harm's way, for putting those families in harm's way, then that can create an environment where these fanatics will go out and do it. But I think nothing justifies, nothing justifies somebody to cross a line

and to engage in violence against other people based on what is happening in the state of Israel. And it's all antisemitism coming to the surface. This belief about Israel being some sort of demon, to use that term again, is trickling down. And we're seeing it on our university campuses now as well. There was a piece that was prepared by Ami Horowitz, who, he's an American conservative documentary filmmaker and activist. And he went to some college campuses, in particular, Portland State University, and pretended to be an activist raising money for Hamas. OK, so he goes up to these Portland State University students saying like, hey, I'm with Hamas.

I'm trying to I'm trying to raise funds for Hamas. And let me just play you a clip of what happened. Listen, I work for American Friends for Hamas type operations we're talking about against soft targets, schools and cafes and that kind of thing. Make them feel it. We're looking to wipe Israel off the map. Yeah, we want, you know, we're looking to destroy Israel. We don't want just Gaza, we want to have all of Israel.

I've actually been learning about last, in this last school year, about everything that's going on over there, so I like the sound of what you're doing. It sounds like the right thing to do. Totally against the Israeli genocide. Awesome. Well, we would love you to check out our website. That would be wonderful. Good luck.

Thank you. If you feel like donating to help the cause, to fight back, and that'd be great. For sure, we'll definitely. Probably like 15 bucks. 15 bucks? No, that'd be great. I don't know, maybe like 10, 20 bucks. 15 to 20.

Five or $10. Maybe like $10. $5. $10. $10. Five or $10. $10. Let's say $27, since that seems to be my bernie donation hamas thanks you i thank you

thank you peace and love pete you believe peace is important right of course of course but we got to get peace you first got to destroy some stuff you know see you man i i mean and he said it if you watch the whole the whole clip he goes on and he says soft targets many times. Schools, cafes, that's what we're talking about. They're handing over money to help. Yeah. I mean, it's exceedingly dangerous. But it starts in the battle of ideas.

It starts on campuses. It starts when young people are taught. It starts with what people in the media are saying. And that has an impact. That has an impact. And the rise, the return of antisemitism, this force, is a real issue. And it's bad. And people have to understand what drives it. And it is a very, very ancient hatred. As I said, you take the Holocaust out of the equation, you're talking about century and century after century of mass murder of Jews in different places around the world for all

sorts of reasons. And it's back. And the difference now, as I said before, is that now the Jewish people have self-determination in a sovereign state and we have the ability to fight back against it. others to say something, not begging others to protect us, but have an army on the battlefield and also the voice of whether it's a prime minister or an ambassador who can go and can speak out against this. And we hope that there'll be people of goodwill across the political spectrum that will stand in solidarity with us to push back against it. But it really is a cultural and educational thing that's very deep. You know, you mentioned this boycott movement, this BDS movement. I mean, this is a totally anti-Semitic movement because it's the singling out of Israel.

So when I was ambassador, people would come to me and say, well, what do you think about these people trying to boycott or to, you know, calling for sanctioning of Israel? Can I just interrupt you one second, Ambassador? Can you explain that? Can you explain what that is, the BDS movement? That term gets thrown around. I don't think most of us really understand it. Yeah, yeah, because it's a BS with a D in the middle of it. But I'll tell you what it is. It's a movement that calls for boycotting, divesting, and sanction probably a couple of decades. And in order to put pressure on Israel and all the leaders of the movement, if anyone bothers to ask them, they all want to eliminate the state of Israel.

Some people think it's just, well, different people. moral idiots who are Jews also, who would help in this movement, thinking that this will get Israel to change this or that policy. But the leaders of BDS, the people themselves, Barghouti was one of them, who was one of the original founders. They want to eliminate the state of Israel. And they say so openly when anyone bothers to ask, but the reason why the BDS is an anti-Semitic movement, and I have, it's very rare that I will accuse somebody or say that somebody is an anti-Semite. You can look at everything that I said as ambassador seven and a half years. I think that's a big label. To label somebody as an anti-Semite to me is a big deal. So Jeremy Corbyn's an anti-Semite. He was an anti-Semite and thank God he was not elected to be prime minister of Great Britain. But when I'm going to accuse somebody and put that scarlet letter A of anti-Semitism on somebody or a it singles Israel out alone among nations of the world

for these measures, for boycott, divestment, and sanction. I have to ask you this one last question for some perspective, especially from you as a guy who you've got what your your mom was born in Miami, right? Isn't that is that the story? And you're my son of a Palestinian,, because some people don't understand that. Because the word Palestine, if your listeners don't know, that was the word that Romans gave the territory of Judea. We are Jews because we are the people of Judea. And we lived in the land of Israel for well over a thousand years, for almost 2,000 years. Before in the second century, the Romans, after facing the Jews and Jewish revolts, time after time, they decided

that they were going to separate the Jewish people from the land of Israel by renaming Judea Palestina. Your dad was a trial lawyer, Democratic mayor of Miami Beach, and you have a degree from Wharton, and you now live in Jerusalem and you've been the ambassador of Israel to the United States. So you understand both countries well, you understand Americans well. And so what I want to ask you is something I forgot to ask when we had a great, great discussion about this whole issue with both sides represented the other day. And that is, I think most Americans care about anti-Semitic attacks. They'll pay attention to that if it makes the news. You know,

they'll watch and say, gosh, I don't want that happening. But when it comes to a larger conflict, why should they care? Explain the importance to Israel, of Israel, to the United States, and why, you know, somebody going about their business, trying to raise their kids, focused on putting food on the table, why should they take the time to understand this conflict and appreciate what Israel's position is here? Well, first, because I think, and this is something new, I think Israel is going to be the most important ally of the United States in the 21st century. And I said that seven years ago or eight years ago in the first speech I was privileged to give as a sitting Israeli ambassador in the United States. And that sounds a little bit crazy from a

guy who represents a country of about 9 million people and the size of New Jersey. How can you be a most important ally? It's because of two things, security and technology. It's not just about American interests that we share and where we can advance. It's not just about American interests that we share and we can advance. It's not just American values. It's because we also share a sense of destiny. America and Israel are not just countries. We are causes. It is hard for people who live in other countries to understand that. I understand that because I was born and raised in the United States, and I'm sure you understand

it deeply. We are causes, and America was blessed, I mean, by providence or history has entrusted her with securing liberty's future and has been a great source of hope and a beacon of opportunity around the world. Israel is a cause as well. We are entrusted by history to secure the Jewish future with full rights for all our citizens, Jews and non-Jews alike. So we are not just countries, we are causes. And the only threat I see really, and I've been saying this for years and now it's being tested, the only threat I see to the alliance between our two countries is that if either of us stop believing that we are a cause

in Israel, the forces of Israeli exceptionalism, you might put it, they're on the march. In America, I think they're in retreat. But I have great faith in America that they will actually be able to reverse this, to push back against it, to make the changes culturally and educational, to stand up, and to recapture that sense of purpose that has helped America lead the world for many, many decades and hopefully will continue to lead the world, not just for decades, for centuries to come. Ambassador Ron Dermer, so great talking to you. Thank you so much. Thank you. I'm back to our guest in one second. First, I want to bring you

a feature that we have here on the MK show known as Sound Up, where we play you some relevant soundbite that we think you might be interested in hearing that day. And today, I just didn't think there was anyone to play other than this beauty from a man you may know as Ronald Reagan, our president at the time, 1982, went to the it went. They went to Arlington National Cemetery and spoke in front of a crowd on Memorial Day about what the meaning of this day is as we head into this weekend. Right. And we're thinking about seeing our friends and seeing our family and maybe opening up the pool and going for a swim. Don't forget what this is all about. Teach your children. Think about it yourself. It's the least we can do for those who have served our country and have fallen. I can't say it any better than the Gipper, the great communicator. Now, I should tell you what we're going to play is Ronald Reagan speaking.

And you will hear over the course of his remarks, gunshots, which is a little alarming when you can't see the video. But the gunshots are just the military doing sort of salutes and no one gets hurt in this particular clip. It's just a bunch of inspiration. So I give it away to Ronald Reagan. In America's cities and towns today, flags will be placed on graves and cemeteries. Public officials will speak of the sacrifice and the valor of those whose memory we honor. I have no illusions about what little I can add now to the silent testimony of those who gave their lives willingly for their country.

Words are even more feeble on this Memorial Day, for the sight before us is that of a strong and good nation that stands in silence and remembers those who were loved and who in return loved their countrymen enough to die for them. Yet we must try to honor them, not for their sakes alone, but for our own. And if words cannot repay the debt we owe these men, surely with our actions, we must strive to keep faith with them and with a vision that led them to battle and a final sacrifice. Our first obligation to them and ourselves is plain enough. The United States and the freedom for which it stands, the freedom which they died, must endure

and prosper. Their lives remind us that freedom is not bought cheaply. It has a cost. It imposes a burden. And just as they whom we commemorate were willing to sacrifice, so too must we, in a less final, less heroic way, be willing to give of ourselves. Each died for a cause he considered more important than his own life. Well, they didn't volunteer to die. They volunteered to defend values for which men have always been willing to die if need be, the values which make up what we call civilization,

and how they must have wished, in all the ugliness that war brings, that no other generation of young men to follow would have to undergo that same experience. As we honor their memory today, let us pledge that their lives, their sacrifices, their valor shall be justified and remembered for as long as God gives life to this nation. And let us also pledge to do our utmost to carry out what must have been their wish, that no other generation of young men will ever have to share their experiences and repeat their sacrifice. Earlier today, with the music that we have heard and that of our national anthem, I can't claim to know the words of all the national anthems in the world, but I don't know of any other that ends with a question and a challenge as ours does.

Does that flag still wave or the land of the free and the home of the brave? That is what we must be proud of. Thank you. Think about that. Think about that. Does that flag still wave? Does that star-spangled banner still wave over the land of the free and the home of the brave? Make sure it does on Memorial Day of all days. Up next, Ying Ma, who has written a lot and acted a lot on behalf of Asian Americans and just discrimination in general. You know, she was instrumental in stopping that push in California to bring discrimination back. Remember, they had a ballot initiative saying, let's discriminate against people again. We should make it lawful.

What they really mean is allow racial preferences for only one minority group, and that would be blacks in academics and otherwise. And the people of California said no. They said no to that. And Ying was important to that effort. But Ying has written a lot on this issue and including on the issue of whether Donald Trump was really the one who inspired this racially motivated violence that has largely been in heavily Democratic areas, right? So does that seem likely? We'll talk about it when she gets here right after this break. It's great to have you.

I've been watching you and reading you thinking, there she goes, she's fighting, she's out there doing her thing. And I applaud you because you're brave and you're not afraid to touch any third rail. And I wouldn't know what that's like, but I somehow appreciate it from afar. Thank you. And thank you so much for having me on and giving me some airtime to discuss this topic. Can you give us an overview? Because what happened was, in my impression, the media started paying attention to some of the anti-Asian crimes that we're seeing, hate crimes that we're seeing out there. When they decided it could be an issue they could blame on President Trump. I mean, that is my anecdotal observation. But what have you seen in terms of the coverage of this and

the rise in these attacks? Well, so I think you're absolutely right. I agree with your observation. I think that there are all kinds of people out there who are very anti-Trump. And during the beginning of the pandemic, it became very convenient for them to pin any sort of racism against Asians against Trump. Trump's own inflammatory rhetoric didn't help. But the issue is obviously much more complicated than that. In terms of the rise of anti-Asian attacks, I think there has been an increase. Some of it is COVID inspired. I also think that a big chunk of the incidents we see are actually very similar to attacks on Asians that we have seen for a very long time, perhaps even decades in urban areas. And it is because many of those attacks have just gone ignored over the years due to political correctness and political inconvenience. And when the pandemic started, a lot of the people who had been ignoring those attacks decided it was now politically convenient. the attacks are now more noticeable because we do have more widely available footage from

smartphones and surveillance cameras, which we didn't, you know, have to nearly the same extent just maybe 10 years ago. I don't like I can you explain that? Because I'll tell you, I when I started to see these attacks go up, I was like, I don't get this or at least coverage of the attacks, you know, the ones that made the news. I'm like, I don't it never it would never occur to me. I mean, I don't mean, of course, that I would have any anti-Asian bias. I mean, it wouldn't even occur to me that because we had the Wuhan lab and the coronavirus coming out of China, that people would target Chinese Americans. Like, to me, it doesn't make any sense. So I

didn't anticipate it. And when I've been reading your articles in preparation for this, in particular, I'm like, oh, I get it. It's that that didn't necessarily happen. But this is we may just be shining a light on a bias, a problem that's been there for a long time that we didn't much care about prior to, you know, Wuhan flu and all the stuff that Trump said. Right. I think the problem has always been there. It's been there for decades. And in fact, there is a law, you know, law enforcement officials in New York City, in San Francisco, they have said off the record that that these attacks are nothing new. And there's one official in San Francisco who even referred to these anti-Asian attacks as the San Francisco Bay Area's dirty little secret. So the problem has always been there. However,

the problem has been exacerbated due to the pandemic and certainly also due to the rise in crime. We've seen a massive increase in homicides in major American cities last year. And I think that sort of problem, you know, problems having to do with the reduction in police resources, BLM riots, so on, that has also contributed to the crime problem. So there's a lot of things all wrapped in one, but at the core of it, I do think that what the media misses is that this is a problem that has been ignored, and that now that they've decided it's politically convenient to cover it, they're still covering it in a very dishonest way. Well, they're blaming it on white supremacy. And that doesn't seem to be the case. I mean,

what we've seen over and over in these attacks is that it is a black perpetrator attacking an Asian American. And the media, when confronted with that reality, has decided that too is white supremacy, that the white man is in the business of keeping any one quote other down, and that the white supremacists have pitted these two minority groups against one another. And therefore, if a black person attacks an Asian person on the streets of New York, that too is to blame on some random white person in their living room who may not have had any anti-minority bias, but because they were born with white pigment, with lighter pigmentation, they're to blame if you ask Robin DiAngelo. We're all white supremacists. I mean, this is basically how it's come down, has it not?

Yeah. And I would separate the so-called hate incidents in a couple of categories. I would first refer to, there's a category of sort of non-violent harassment, people saying racist things to Asian people. That's very different from the horrific violent attacks that we've seen over and over again in America's urban areas. And so many of them have been perpetrated on the elderly too. And that is what makes it more horrific. And so I do think that in the former category, plenty of non-Black people, plenty of white people have engaged in that kind of hostility, at least from what we see sort of documented in the public sphere. Now, in the second category, the truly horrific attacks, the violence, the murders,

I think those are, in fact, the far more serious ones that we need to tackle. But those are the incidents where this, you know, this entirely ludicrous rhetoric about white supremacy comes into play. And so, you know, even though time and time again, the attacks that we find so despicable and so horrific are perpetrated by black suspects. The media covering these attacks oftentimes can't even bring themselves to utter the word black. Yeah, right. They're so terrified that any open discussion about the racial dynamics or ethnic dynamics here is going to make you a racist. Meanwhile, it's like, well, we have to talk about it. We have to. It doesn't mean God knows you're not condemning all black people just

because we're being honest about the fact that the latest spate of violence has been perpetrated for the most part by black perpetrators. That doesn't that's not a condemnation of black people. We have to get honest. It's a condemnation of the black perpetrators. And we're trying to figure out why are you blaming it on white supremacy? Right. Like, let's let's get real. And it is happening. There's just a couple examples. March 2021, Vox comes out and says, ultimately, there's a failure to remember what got America to this place of racial hierarchies and lingering black Asian tensions, white supremacy. And for black and Asian American communities of white supremacy, we're saying Asian Americans and every other marginalized racial group deserves to be freed from this violence. Washington Post, anti-Asian racism is white supremacy, hands down, and on and on it goes. And then I want to get into the moron academics who I've already recited on this show who are out there saying it even more explicitly. But that's the narrative. Everything is white supremacy. Why can't we talk about the fact that actually here what we're seeing is a rise in black on Asian violence? Because I think the word black is in there. And I think the moment that we're currently in

is all about white supremacy. It's all about systemic racism. It is all about racial justice and it's all about racial equity. And when you put all of those things together, in some ways the narrative kind of says, black people can do no wrong. And the only wrong they can do is possibly not condemn white supremacy enough.

And in that narrative, which is all over our politics, all over our media, it is very politically inconvenient to actually say that actually you have some, you know, you have some widespread black on Asian violence in urban communities. And it has maybe not been as serious in the past, but it has been going on for quite some time. And now we see all these politicians using the pain of Asian Americans to further their distorted narrative. And I think the problem is that we have to talk about crime, we have to talk about violence, but we also have to talk about race, and it is very uncomfortable. And there's no getting around that problem. You know, I think one of the reasons why this has been a dirty little secret and why it has kind of exploded in our faces this year is because in the past, when these crimes happen, they don't just

happen in a vacuum. There's a lot of racial animosity at times in inner city areas. Different ethnic and racial communities are bumping up into each other. Under normal circumstances, if a white person were to discriminate against a black person or if a hate crime were committed, you would get wall-to-wall coverage of how bad that racism is. Unfortunately, in these urban areas where crime is often perpetrated on the most vulnerable black, brown and yellow people, the victims can't really speak for themselves. Many of them don't speak English and the bystanders and our political leaders are far too cowardly and they kind of look away. say something that's racist against an Asian person. And let me tell you, a lot of Americans don't know this. This kind of racism actually happens a lot in inner city areas. How do bystanders respond? They don't. They look away uncomfortably. And that's how our society in general has responded to the problem of Black on Asian violence over the decades. And that is why we currently can't really have an honest conversation. And I think that it's because white people, many white people, particularly many

white reporters, feel a certain amount of white guilt. They feel that they have no moral authority to condemn any behavior by Black people. And so they sort of stand back and they kind of just repeat whatever groups like BLM tell them they ought to say. And ultimately the victims are the victims you see in all of these horrific videos that have been on display in the past few months. That's fascinating. So you, under this theory then,

if a white person witnessed another white person attacking an Asian victim, they might speak up. But it's because of the very race of the attacker, a black person being the attacker, that they don't because, as you say, they feel they lack the moral authority. I've never quite understood it like that, but that makes sense. And I think it's, you know, why you see a lot of a lot of white people talking about their white privilege these days. There's a lot of self-flagellation. And and I think the moment that we're currently in, you know, which sort of stems from from the death of George Floyd stems some of all the protests last year, it makes it even harder. I mean, it was hard enough even before the George Floyd protest to have an honest conversation about Black on Asian violence. It is a lot harder today to do that. And I would say it's not just white people. I mean, you know, like, I think in general, it is very difficult to confront these kinds of scenarios, even when they're not violent. I mean, I myself have have stood silent before a lot of these scenarios involving racial epithets against Asian people, because you don't want you don't want to risk any violence being perpetrated on you. But, too, you don't want to really engage in that kind of confrontation. And three, it's just uncomfortable in general. So I think what I've called for in recent days is I have the local level, on the national level, role models And I think that they are just as appalled at these violent incidents as the rest of us are. And I think they are in kind of a special place

to tell their own communities there is not a damn bit of this that is okay. I recently had a conversation with a conservative Black pastor who grew up in segregated Alabama, and he's all over this issue. And he says one of the reasons why we're seeing so much of this is because many of these communities are broken communities. The families are dysfunctional. The father is not at home. And in the old days, if a black teenager were to add a line, there would be older family members or other members of the community who would step in and tell him his behavior is not okay. Whereas these days, without that structure and without that network, a lot of kids are just acting inappropriately.

I mean, it does bear noting, the vast majority of Black people find this behavior abhorrent. These Black people don't represent black people writ large. They're criminals. They're just like white criminals don't represent white people writ large. It's just, we're trying to figure out why this dynamic has been captured so many times in the past few months and really over the past year on tape. As you point out, we're having more access to it. And there were stats just released in New York City. A black New Yorker is over six times as likely to commit a hate crime against an Asian as a white New Yorker is. In 2020, blacks made up 50% of all suspects in anti-Asian attacks in New York, even though

blacks are 24% of the city's population. So, you know, you can see it sort of playing out in the numbers and then you see it playing out in these tapes. I have to ask you about this, Yang, because the one that really stood out to me and I tweeted about it at the time was the 65 year old Asian woman who was assaulted in March. End of March, midday, midtown Manhattan. You know, this is the perfectly nice neighborhood. It's not like a high crime area. She's walking to church. She gets brutally kicked and beaten. The guy broke her pelvis. She got hurt in the head. He yelled, F you,

you don't belong here. Bystanders stood by. They watched it. The doormen in this luxury apartment building did nothing. They closed the doors rather than helping. I don't know. I believe, maybe I'm crazy. I believe if I had been the victim of that attack, the doormen would have come and helped. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe they're just cowardly toward everybody. But the fact that they did not help this 65-year-old Asian woman is disgusting.

And the guy was yelling anti- anti Asian slurs at her. That one did make the news, by the way, the guy who got arrested for it. So he was black, 38 year old. He'd just been on parole. He'd been paroled recently for killing his own mother back in 2002 in front of his little five year old sister at the time. So I see this. It's it's not on loop on video the way we saw with George Floyd or some of these other incidents. It barely got a mention. I just happened to see it because I'm here in New York. It did not become a huge national story. And I could go on. There's so many other incidents that we've seen along these lines. So why is that? Right. So you see that and it sort of tells the story.

Yeah. And, you know, while we're at it, if you'll allow me just a minute to describe what happened during the first week of May. On Sunday, an attacker accosted two Asian women in midtown Manhattan and repeatedly struck one of them in the head with a hammer. On Monday, an Asian father was beaten brutally in San Francisco while walking his baby in a stroller. On Tuesday, a man viciously beats two Asian women in the head with a cinder block at a liquor store where the victims work in Baltimore. Also Tuesday, an Asian store owner in D.C. was punched in the face after refusing to let a customer open store items before purchase. Same day, two Asian women were stabbed in San Francisco while waiting at a bus stop. One of them was an elderly grandmother. The handle of the knife broke off after the suspect stabbed her,

and a huge knife was actually left in her body when she was rushed to the hospital. Then Saturday that week, some teens attacked and mugged an 80-year-old Asian man in San Leandro in California, and the video shows these attackers laughing as the victims scream for help on the ground. Every one of these attacks were perpetrated by Black suspects on Asian victims. And this was just the first week in May. And we have not heard a word in the media about the suspects being Black. And we've not seen wall-to-wall coverage. I bet there are plenty of people across America who haven't even heard about these incidents. And I think more people have heard about the incident you referred to

of the Filipino woman who was sort of stomped on in the head in Midtown Manhattan. And I think by now, these horrific attacks happen so often that perhaps some people are even kind of desensitized to it. And that's what's so awful about all of this, that people keep talking about white supremacy and they keep looking away at Black on Asian violence. The Asian community has a lot of left-wing activists who are glad to sort of participate in perpetuating this false narrative. And meanwhile, you know, we continue to see these attacks take place. So I think one of the things we need to ask ourselves is not just that this is not right, this is not just, and that we need to put a stop to it.

But if this keeps happening, what is going to happen if there's some sort of racial, sort of a race war? Just imagine what would happen the next time a Black suspect tries to attack an Asian victim and the Asian victim pulls out a gun and shoots the person. Are we going to have riots? We are already hearing about a dramatic increase in gun acquisition by the Asian community. And so ultimately, we should have an honest conversation, an honest, uncomfortable national conversation, not simply because it's the right thing to do, but also because there are real consequences of what might happen if we just let this issue kind of simmer. You know that, I mean, the way it feels to me is Asians don't count as minorities, right? Like they're, they're too high achieving. They've, they've, they're so high achieving,

they've achieved quote white status. This is how these leftists talk about race that you can, you convert over into quote white when you do well, or you gain power or you, you know, you get into universities at a rate that's disproportionate to the black community, say for example. And so they don't seem to care. These are the same less leftist activists. Like they'll give it some lip service. They were very interested in the, in the March Atlanta shooting at the, at the salons, the nail salons and the, and the massage areas, because they thought that guy was a white supremacist. And then when he came out and he was like, actually, it was more about, I felt these women were responsible for my sex addiction. They quickly lost interest in him.

So it seems like, I feel like there's an element of their racism, of these sort of white leftist spokespeople for all things that are racist or not racist. They're not interested because Asian-Americans are so high, high achieving. And I think they see a lot of these leftists see Asians as kind of collateral damage in their effort to atone for white privilege, for white guilt, and for past white aggressions or transgressions. And so, you know, you see this playing out in the debate about racial preferences in higher education. And so in order for white, you know, in order for white liberals to feel good about themselves, in order for them to be able to brag about racial diversity, the people who pay the highest price are Asian American applicants. They're the ones discriminated against for their academic excellence. And in many ways, I think we see this playing out in other areas of the racial conversation as well. I prefer to think that everybody is an American, no matter what race you are. And in fact, I find the way that some of these Asian American left wing groups, you know, categorize everybody and lump everybody together to be really quite

ludicrous. But ultimately, you know, ultimately the conversation needs to be about, you know, what brings us law and order, what brings us peace and security. And we ought to be able to at least have an honest conversation about how is it that we can prevent our grandmas and grandpas, you know, walking to Chinatown from being attacked so viciously all the time. And I've, I've read you, you know, pointing out that a lot of the times, Asian men or Asian women are on the smaller side, and they can't, they're, they're no match, like they get targeted. It's, it's so unfair on so many levels, because they they're unarmed, they can't fight back. And match. Like they get targeted. It's so unfair on so many levels because they're

unarmed, they can't fight back, and they make too easy a victim. It's taken advantage by criminals who do their own version of profiling. Obviously, they're going to prefer to attack victims who are more vulnerable, victims who are likely to carry more cash and victims who perhaps don't speak the English language well enough and are less likely to report the crimes. And so they may not always be specifically thinking, I want to attack an Asian person. But oftentimes the characteristics that come to mind for them are sort of, you know, associated with Asian people. And then meanwhile, you also have criminals who outright make racist remarks against Asians while they're attacking Asian victims. And so that also, you know, just makes it very clear where their mindset is. And so I think where these attacks occur,

there are multiple layers of the motivations. I think a big part of it is just crime in general, that when we, you know, when we advocate defunding the police, when we take away resources from the local police forces, that ends up having a real impact on everybody, including, you know, brown and black people as well. Now, and that affects Asian people who have to face these criminals. But at the same time, I think there are certainly criminals who have real racist views and that when they perpetrate attacks like that man who killed his mother, certainly he wasn't racist against his mother. But one could be just a psycho and be a racist at the same time. And right now, we're just not having a conversation about any of these topics. And I think even before we have that honest conversation,

some concrete practical steps need to be taken. For instance, increasing police patrols to defend the most vulnerable and those types of measures. If you look at some of the most common victims, if it's a grandmother in her 80s or a grandfather, you know, walking along using a walker,

they're not going to be able to defend themselves. They're not going to be yanking out a gun or they're not going to be throwing a punch. And so ultimately, we need to get law and order back in place. And that also is a topic that is really controversial right now, because that's also wrapped up in systemic racism and white supremacy. And, you know, and once again, vulnerable Asian Americans in heavily urban areas end up being the victims. Well, and if you talk to the black community, too, look, all the polls show they want the same or more police in their neighborhoods. They don't want less police. Only the people, the criminals want less police. And I understand black men who have historically

had negative encounters with police may not want more police. I get that. But the reality is crime is high. It's at an all time high right now in a lot of cities in America, especially violent crime and law abiding citizens want to be protected. Not all of us have guns or tasers or would be feel comfortable using them. You know, that little lady who got knocked down 65 years old that we talked about, she didn't have time there. Even if she had seen the guy come in, there was no time for that woman to grab a weapon, even if she'd been armed. So let's be real. And the problem, just to give a perspective, in 2020, 2020, there were more than 3800 reports nationally of anti-Asian violence, a sharp uptick compared with just 2019, where there was only there were only I mean, in comparison, at least 2600 incidents.

Three in four Asian-Americans worry about experiencing hate crime, harassment, or discrimination because of COVID-19. 68.1% have suffered verbal harassment, 20% shunning, right? They get blamed. 11% physical assault. And by the way, women are targeted the most, 68% versus 29% male victims, to your point earlier of, you know, they go for the most vulnerable, right? And we're the least threatening women are, especially if you add, you know, elderly to the list, forget it. So what do we do about that? You say conversation.

I noticed Jada Pinkett Smith. She had a discussion on Red Table. They took some flack for stuff her mom was saying. But overall, you know, they had they had some black panelists. They had some Asian panelists. Lisa Ling was on there, I think. And, um, I think it's interesting because her mom, Jada's mom who goes on there with her daughter, Jada's mom said as follows, I need to understand she's talking about, uh, Asian people, where does their animosity for us come from? Because that's what it feels like. It

feels like they have come into our communities, taken over our stores, taken over the hair and nail industry, and really blocked us from being able to thrive in this industry. We're coming into these stores and what are they giving back to the community? She says, we're not even treated with respect and kindness. It's very difficult for there to be any concern for them. She says, I don't even feel like they want our help. There's something different from the scholars. But for the average person, do they care? Are they interested in a relationship with me? And she goes on to say, I've never had an Asian person that I don't know come up to me, speak to me, give me eye contact. We're owed some of that when you come into our country and you start businesses. Oh boy, Adrian. Hello, Adrian. I mean, I credit

them for trying to have the conversation. I felt uncomfortable hearing it, but what do you make of her comments? I thought it was highly offensive. I mean, it was incredibly offensive. It was racist in many ways. And I actually am grateful she said it because I think she said what is on undertone of a lot of that, which is why I say that it is incumbent on Black leaders like former President Obama, as well as, you know, Vice President Kamala Harris, to make it very clear that Black on Asian violence is absolutely not okay.

I don't give a damn how you feel about nail salons and their owners. And, you know, and that's a conversation I'm happy to have, but I don't give a damn how you feel about, you know, the poor service you're getting from the Korean, you know, nail salon worker. There is not a damn thing that justifies any of these violent incidents, many of which are in fact hate motivated. You know, a number of these crimes have been charged as hate crimes. And so I think that is number one. Before we can, you know, before we have a conversation about, you know, Blacks and Asians and have a give and take, I think the leaders in the Black community, as well as just our leaders in general, you know, President Biden, for instance, need to go out there and make it very clear that it is not okay for any of this black on Asian violence to be taking place. Obviously,

racist attacks on anybody by any perpetrator on any victim, that's not okay. But because we're seeing so many of these incidents taking place, that I think our leaders need to step up to the plate and make that clear. Now, as far as what Jada Pinkett Smith's mom was saying, first of all, just imagine if a white person said that about a Hispanic, you know, that they've come into this country and taken over our communities and taken, you know, and taken our jobs, taken our businesses. And what are they giving back? And then we're not treated with respect by them. And need to make eye contact and that show would be canceled.

Yes, that's absolutely. Meanwhile, you hear, you know, like the other panelists on that on that show, we're kind of nodding along in silence. I give Jada some credit for, you know, for actually making it very clear that the violence is not okay. So, so I give her credit that, but that whole show was actually, that whole panel was actually deeply offensive for another reason. It's because everybody around that table agrees that white supremacy is ultimately the problem and that, you know, and that racial minorities don't have to take responsibilities for their own actions, that somehow if violence takes place between two minority groups, that ultimately it is the structure of white supremacy and systemic racism that is at fault. I mean, it is utterly absurd. And somehow, you know,

what they're saying, even the ones who sound a little bit more sane, are saying that white people, that Asian people and black people need to work together in order to fight against this white supremacist superstructure. That's what Michael Eric Dyson, who is there, said. He said, we're at each other's necks, but we should be looking at the common enemy of white supremacy. It's all back to white supremacy in the end. Right. And I think one of the reasons why the Asian community is sort of looked at with suspicion by a lot of these left wing activists is that there are many individuals and organizations within the Asian American community who don't buy that narrative. They don't buy the narrative of grievance. They don't buy identity politics in general. And even though the community is not monolithic, the Asian community does have a lot of people who are small business owners. It's a very entrepreneurial group of people. Korean

store owners, there are quite a few of them, even though there are probably fewer among store owners. But nevertheless, I think a lot of what the left is telling this country is simply not something that's appealing to, you know, sort of a traditional Asian American family. And I think that's why they're frustrated. And so do I think that every Asian person ought to care about justice for Black people and equal rights? Absolutely. But does that mean that I'm supposed to go and participate in a BLM protest that turns into a riot? And am I supposed to go and participate in burning down a Wendy's? Absolutely not. And am I supposed to then also, you know, run around saying that America is a systemically racist country? No. And I think that's where a lot

of the frustration comes from. And I think that's where you'll see a lot of left-wing activists accusing Asian Americans of acting white or not caring about other minority groups, whereas what a lot of people are doing is that they're opting for common sense. They're opting to remain hopeful about equal rights in this country, you know, equality, not equity. And I think a lot of people are choosing to keep faith in the American promise. And that promise to them is not what's, you know, what's on display when BLM riots break out. Well, and so now this is where the rubber meets the road, right? Because Asian Americans, many of whom have are at the lower end of socioeconomic classes, right? They living above the dry cleaner, what have you, that's not like this group uniformly has privilege and wealth in this country, but they tend to be extremely hardworking and they tend to be tough on their kids and make sure their kids get good grades. I mean, this is, let's go back to Tiger Mom, one of my favorite

books and one of my favorite people of all time, Amy Chua. She's very open about the method of Chinese parenting and you may not like it, may not be your method, but it works and your kid's going to do well academically because as a rule, and there's always exceptions to it, um, that academic achievement and hard work is prized in the Asian community. And that's something to be lauded. I mean, I think that's something we should all aspire to. I would like to, I told her when she was on, I'm like, I would like to have more of the Chinese mom in me. I wish somebody had done it to me. Who knows what could have happened. But anyway, um, my mom just kept making me take typing over and over because she didn't see me achieving anything much. Imagine if she had been the mom who got

practice tests to help me. I think we see a lot more of the emphasis on academic achievement, on hard work in the East Asian communities, Koreans, Chinese, Japanese. I think Southeast Asian communities are different. South Asian communities are even more different. And I think, you know, what's interesting about Asian Americans is that you do have some who are very financially well off. They've achieved a great deal of success. But at the same time, you've got a lot of people in this community who are still very poor, you know, who are working six days a week, you know, operating their dry cleaner or their restaurant. And some, you know, and some of them have a whole family devoted to the project. And so I think it's a racial group that's got a lot of different aspects to it.

I actually personally don't care for the label very much because many of us don't look like each other. Many of us don't think like each other. The label of Asians or the label of what? The label of Asian Americans. And then there's the label of, there's nowadays this new, you know, a label that's becoming even more popular, which is AAPI, Asian American Pacific Islanders. I think a lot of this, it's kind of, these are made up categories. And ultimately, we are all Americans, and it's not okay for any of the crimes happening to Asian Americans to be happening is sort of picking up on what you were saying, which is it does belie. And I and this is not to discount the history of racism in America. And I understand that American born black people have a history in this country that even that black immigrants may not have that Asians may not have. I actually think that is a legitimate point

in distinguishing what black Americans may be going through and the sort of challenges they may be up against. But it is it is true as well that many Asian immigrants to America overcome enormous odds and overcome socioeconomic, you know, being on the lower end of that struggle. And they managed to make it. They managed to work their way out of it just and achieve the American dream. And if your message taking, if this isn't about black people,

it's about sort of these leftists who are trying to co-opt the narrative in our academic institutions and beyond. If your narrative is that the American dream is not possible, that it's a facade, and even the notion of it is racist because it's not achievable, except for by a white person, and you see an Asian like that doing it over and over, then that's an inconvenient truth for you, to steal a phrase, that you might not, you might not want to talk about that so much or really shine a light on those achievements. Right, right. And so you come up with narratives saying that white people find it, you know, more convenient to allow Asian people to succeed. And we, you know, hear that kind of

language pretty often out there. And then, you know, we also hear people saying that Asian people just want to be white and they don't care about blacks or Hispanics and they just want to, you know, one, look white and two, act white. So we do see a lot of that. But ultimately, I do think it gets back to what you're saying, which is that if the belief amongst certain individuals in a racial minority is that they believe in the American dream. And if it's the dream of the leftists to take down America as we know it, then the two don't really jive very well together. I can't let you go without asking about what's happening to Asians and AAPI. I don't know what

to say now at college campuses, because to me, they're the discrimination against against Asian people. It's just so obvious, like all these activists who are out there talking about equality. They don't mean Asian people. No, not at all. And what is most ironic is that the left wing Asian-American activists who have been out there criticizing Trump day in and day out ever since the pandemic started. And these left-wing activists who keep talking about stop Asian hate and who keep saying that this is the fault of the white supremacists, these are the very groups who defend the use of racial preferences in higher education, as well as on the high school level, against Asian Americans. These are the groups who do not have the best interests of Asian

Americans at heart, but yet time and time again, they're the ones getting a huge amount of funding from left-wing organizations and left-wing individuals to provide the facade that they are actually speaking on behalf of Asian Americans and that somehow there are huge numbers of Asian Americans who buy into this left-wing ideology of America is a racist country. You on that front were instrumental, as I understand it, in defeating that California initiative that tried to make discrimination legal again. They literally tried to write it back into law and allow racial preferences and to really upend a system that had been, I think, doing better in California. Can you just explain what that fight was over and why it was so important that

you and others, the Californians, defeated it? Yeah, I mean, that was an exciting campaign. That was just in 2020. And I was also involved in the 1996 campaign, which was the Prop 209 campaign. That was the campaign that banned racial preferences in public education, public contracting and public employment in California. And what happened last year in 2020 was that a bunch of leftist politicians and leftist groups wanted to actually reinstate racial preferences. And a number of us got involved and decided to fight back. And we won in sort of a David versus Goliath fight. They had, I think, something like $30 million. We had $1.7 million. They had everybody who was anybody in California on their side, including the business establishment, the media, the sports establishment. And we just have the grassroots. And what is so important is that, you know, this was also part of the Black Lives Matter debate.

You know, this was part of the conversation about America's racial reckoning. And somehow the left was saying that if you believe in racial equity, then you must bring back this unjust, you know, racial preferences system. And we don't care if Asian Americans are hurt in the process. And our argument to all Californians was that America is no longer a systemically racist country. But regardless, we are not, you know, our state is not one that is going to discriminate against people based on race. And Californians agreed with us resoundingly by a 14 point margin. So, you know, that was exciting, and that was truly gratifying because it gives us hope that even in a deep blue state like California, Americans continue to believe

in equality. They continue to believe that merit matters, that character matters, and I do hope that moving forward, whether we're talking about higher education or whether we're trying to find real solutions to Black on Asian violence, that, you know, that we can appeal to Americans with that kind of common sense and Americans who continue to believe in our country's founding principles. Can you tell us, I mean, I remember reading about this and what happened in California when they said no more racial preferences. What happened in terms of black students and numbers at the universities in California? And so the measure, the original measure that banned racial preferences, it passed in 1996, and then it went into effect a couple of years later. And what happened was, I think in the very early days, the first year or so, there was a drop in minority enrollment. And I'm referring to Black students, Hispanic students.

And however, the university finally decided to take diversity seriously rather than papering over, you know, just a bunch of sort of racial preferences numbers. And so the university actually began to implement real affirmative action, affirmative action based on socioeconomic status, for instance, affirmative action based on whether a kid's parents went to college or not, doing outreach in minority communities that, you know, see a lot of crime and don't necessarily understand what the requirements of getting into the UC system may be. And as that kind of sort of non-race-based affirmative action took place, we've seen over the past two and a half decades or so, that racial minorities, including underrepresented racial minorities, have actually been admitted in bigger and bigger numbers at the University of California. And so in many ways, neutrality has been a success. And in fact, just a couple of, you know, I think it was just the last year or the year before, you know, you saw

newspaper reports saying that the University of California has just admitted the most diverse class ever, you know, and so you're seeing headlines like that now, even without racial preferences. Isn't that amazing? I mean, that's that's the success story is that initially, the numbers went down. But over the past quarter century, they've gone up and the numbers look really good and the achievement looks good. And that the challenging disciplines that black students have gotten degrees in and so on, that those numbers have gone up, you know, science, technology, engineering, math, and so on. It's, it was a success story. Graduation rates for blacks and Latinos have also gone up. Right. So thank goodness that people like you decided to fight back when this knee jerk, we need racial preferences everywhere.

And in particular, in these California universities, even if the system's working, does it work perfectly? No, nowhere ever. But it's working pretty well. And it's definitely working better than it worked when they had the preferences there on the books. So that was that was an important thing. It sort of set a model, as you point out, for other blue states who get that idea in their head. Listen, I love talking

to you. I'm so grateful for your open and honest conversations, what we do here, but some people are bolder than others. Thank you so much. Oh my gosh, thank you so much. It's an honor to be on your show. You know, it's great talking to you as well. And thank you for providing an opportunity to have this, you know, very sort of open conversation. Monday is Memorial Day, as you know, hope you have a good plan going. One thing you got to do on Memorial Day, it's not all about the barbecue and, you know, hopefully the opening of the pool and seeing your friends. It's also about remembering those who serve this country and paying them respect. Because it's Memorial Day, we'll do an hour-long interview with Robert O'Neill. You know him. He's also known as the man who shot and killed Osama

bin Laden. Big respect to him. And he used to come on my show on the Kelly Files and really was just a thoughtful guy, right? And has been through a lot and has been pretty outspoken on Twitter since all of that as well. So he'll join us on what it means to serve and to sacrifice as very few in this country have ever experienced. Don't miss that. Talk to you then. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.

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