The Megyn Kelly Show - Tragedy in Texas: Another Deadly School Shooting, with Charles C.W. Cooke and Neil Heslin | Ep. 329

Episode Date: May 25, 2022

Megyn Kelly is joined by Charles C.W. Cooke, senior writer for National Review, and Neil Heslin, father of Newtown victim Jesse Lewis, to talk about the tragic mass school shooting at an elementary school in Uvalde, Texas, remembering the victims of the unthinkable crime, mental health and bullying, what could have been done to prevent this crime and the next mass shooting, the policy questions about guns ahead, how saying "I don't know" after a tragedy is honest and frightening, whether background check legislation will make an impact, Biden's speech last night about the shooting and what he pushed, the pain of losing a child in a school shooting, the details of Neil Heslin's final day with his son, the political forces that exploit tragedies, and more.Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKellyTwitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at: https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Such a sad day. I know you're feeling it too. It's happened again. It's hard to believe it's happened again. There's something different when it happens to children, when it happens inside of a school. It's just every time you think this has to be the last time. We can't be living in this inhumane of a society.

And yet, you get proven wrong 19 innocent elementary school children elementary school children and two teachers gunned down while trying to learn probably sitting there getting excited for the end of the year summer so close you can taste it there's an extra happy atmosphere inside of school these days, you know, amongst the teachers and the students, right? Can't you see it when you drop your own kids off right now? And they went into their elementary school just outside of San Antonio, Texas, and they were murdered. 19 kids at a school in a truly evil attack along with two teachers.

Evil. There's no other word for it. It's a story that's become all too familiar in America. A male, teenaged loner, reportedly bullied from a troubled family, absentee mom, absentee dad, posts disturbing content online, warning signs to those paying attention, but who was, who was in this case, who then goes on to kill in cold blood mercilessly. Today, we're learning more disturbing details about this 18-year-old killer and how he managed to obtain his guns. We will not be naming him consistent with my own longstanding policy, since studies have shown that

mass shooters typically desire infamy, and we we decline to help and others in the media would do well to pay attention to that. But before we get to all that, more on the lives taken yesterday in Texas. It's almost too much to bear, but what kind of a society are we if we brush past the innocent children who were killed in an effort to go right to policy? It makes it too easy for us, those of us who are still here, those of us who need to take a hard look at what leads to something like this. These little children were casualties in whatever societal sickness this is, and they deserve to be remembered. Like fourth grader Amari Joe Garza. Her grandmother spoke to the Daily Beast.

She appears to have spoken with a classmate of Amari's. And says the gunman walked into the classroom and told the children, you're going to die. Horrific. This little girl did what she had likely been taught to do by the adults who loved her. She called 911 for help. And the gunman shot her as she did. Her best friend was, oh, look at this little girl. Her best friend was sitting next to a Mary and wound up covered in her blood.

Also among the dead, 10-year-old McKenna Elrod, a family friend posted online, sweet McKenna, look at her, their bright red headband, her sassy smile. She looks like she knows something, doesn't she? Her friend posted, sweet McKenna, rest in paradise. My heart is shattered as my daughter loved her so much. It's not just the family members who grieve, it's everyone in the town, in the community, the friends, the family, the church members, and now all of us. Another family's burden that much more horrific because they are now being forced to bury two children. One is 10-year-old Annabelle Guadalupe Rodriguez. Her desperate father spent much of the day searching for her until the worst news of his life was confirmed. Her cousin was also killed, but has not yet been named. Ten-year-old Xavier Javier Lopez

also died. He's being remembered as a child who was bubbly and loved to dance with his brothers and his mom. Eight-year-old Uzaya Garcia's grandfather says he was the sweetest little boy he had ever known. They last saw each other over spring break and played football. His grandfather says he could really catch the ball well. And then there are the teachers. Eva Morales, one of the first victims identified, a loving mother and wife, who is said to have been someone who lived life to the fullest.

Absolutely beautiful outside in this shot in front of the mountains, looking so happy. And Irma Garcia, a mother of four. She'd been nominated for Teacher of the Year not long ago. There are more. This is just a snapshot of some of the lives lost. As the devastated community gathered, the Archbishop of San Antonio could be seen comforting families outside the Civic lost. As the devastated community gathered, the Archbishop of San Antonio could be seen comforting families outside the Civic Center. One man there was heard sobbing into his phone. She's gone. Meanwhile, in Washington, the flag at the U.S. Capitol building was lowered in honor of those killed. We now know that the gunman was finally stopped

by a Border Patrol agent who was nearby when the shooting broke out. We do not yet know the identity of that agent, but we understand he was injured in the fight. We've also learned more about the events leading up to the attack and that police were on the scene before the killer barricaded himself in a classroom. Listen. So what we do know is that the shooter was involved in a domestic disturbance with his grandmother prior to the shooting at the school. He did shoot his grandmother at that point. He then fled in a vehicle and was in close proximity near the school where we got calls to local law enforcement at the Uvalde Police Department, received a call of a crashed vehicle and a individual armed with a weapon

making his way into the school. At that point, we had local law enforcement, school officers, as well as state troopers who were first on scene and were able to hear the actual gunshots inside the classroom. They tried to make entry into the building. They were met with gunfire by the suspect, by the shooter. Some of those officers were shot. So at that point, they began breaking windows around the school, trying to evacuate children, teachers, anybody they could,

trying to get them out of that building, out of that school. What we do know at that point, the shooter was able to make entry into a classroom, barricaded himself inside that classroom, and again, just began shooting numerous children and teachers that were in that classroom, just began shooting anyone that was in his way. At that point, we had a tactical law enforcement team arrive, made up of multiple federal officers, local officers, as well as state troopers that were able to make forcible entry into that classroom. They were met with gunfire as well, but they were able to shoot and kill that suspect.

As you just heard, the killer also shot his own grandmother prior to the attack on the school. We are told as of this hour, she is in critical condition. That information eerily reminiscent of another mind-boggling school shooting, Newtown. In that attack nearly 10 years ago, the gunman shot and killed his own mother before going on to murder 20 six and seven year olds at Sandy Hook Elementary and another six adults. A little later in this show, we will be joined by Neil Heslin, a father who lost his only child, Jesse, that day, and what these parents are going through and how we can possibly help them. But we begin today with Charles C.W. Cook, senior writer at National Review.

Charles, welcome back to the show. It's truly almost too much to take in. I know you have young children as well. To spend time thinking about what the parents are going through is almost, it's incapacitating. And yet, like, we can't jump right to the gun debate. And that's what the lunatics online do, right? That they jump right to the awful politics of it before spending a moment just reflecting on what does it say about humanity? What does it say about America? What does it make us reflect on as parents and citizens and humans a moment like this? I think most people can't make head or tail of it. I can't. I mean, if you ask most people whether they have kids or not, whether they'd be prepared to hurt a child, they would look at you funny.

If you ask most people whether they'd be prepared to hurt their grandmother, they would look at you funny. It's devastating. It's also incomprehensible. I suspect that's one reason people do jump right to policy, right to saying do something. Because it's not an issue that you think, well, there but for the grace of God, go I. Perhaps we all think that in terms of being a victim, but the number of people in America and in the world who would be capable of this or willing to do this is tiny and unfortunately it does seem only to take one or two um more maybe but this

sort of event is rare and then we end up heartbroken but i i think and it's not just that it's devastating it's it's that it's incomprehensible. As you say, small children, I just... I mean, it's a strange thing that we've entered into this cycle. Someone at some point started doing this and then there are people who have copied it, but it's not something that had occurred to human beings before a certain point.

And I think the rest of us would never have invented it, even in a novel or a movie. So we don't really know how to think about it. And then you look at the shooter and you think, monster, absolute monster, who has four fourth graders barricaded in a room and looks at these terrified children and says, you're about to die, and then starts killing them in front of one another.

How does that person exist on this earth for 18 years without everyone around him knowing this is a potential murderer? This is a sociopath. This is someone who should be locked up. Right. And so we he seemed to enjoy that was especially brutal. And these sociopaths often start with animals. In this guy's case, maybe more will come out. It's only been less than a day. But so far, it's more of a, he was bullied. He had a lisp. His dad wasn't in the picture. His mom was on drugs. He lived with the grandma. I mean, as much as I'd like to look at that, Charles, and say somebody should have found the signs, that's true of so many kids living in America who don't do this kind of thing. I'm looking for lessons too. I'm looking for things we can say, ah, we just won't do that again. And then the next one will

be prevented. And so far, I see a messed up family life, but not one that would have predicted this. It's so hard to predict. I'm not religious, although I'm married to a woman who is. I have a lot of religious friends. But I do think that there is such a thing, however you want to define it, as evil. There are some people who are just wrong. And we know this from history and i don't think we can eradicate them or you know develop or evolve as a culture to the point at which they don't exist and as you say how could you do this how could you go into this classroom and do this frankly how could you do this? How could you go into this classroom and do this? Frankly, how could you

do it to a cat, let alone a human being? And I don't know the answer to it. And I do know these people exist. And I do know we have to structure our society in some way to accept that really unpleasant fact. Trying to find them, though, is really difficult. And, you know, I am a classical liberal in my politics, because I think that there are also a lot of risks in trying to do that. You know, you want to find a balance between having police and prosecutors and a zero tolerance policy towards criminals, and sort of catching up all sorts of people who haven't done anything in in a dragnet and as you say that the characteristics that you just described are common to a lot of people who would never dream of doing this so you know what do you do and i'm afraid that i

don't know and i suspect most of the people who say they know also don't know. And that makes this more scary, not less. See, I feel like I know on a guy who on the on the Buffalo shooter, on a guy who is displaying sociopathic tendencies and has expressed a desire to hurt a lot of people. You know, a year before that shooting, he said he wanted to shoot up his school and himself and got flagged and did a day or two inside of a mental health facility before he convinced them he'd been joking. But I do feel like I know in that case, we really do need to have a facility into which we can send these people and they have to stay there and there will be an erosion of their civil liberties. And that's just too bad. That's just the way it's going to have to be but there will be a procedure in place to on the on a more macro level protect their civil liberties it would have to be

reviewed every you know two weeks to four weeks it can't just be reviewed by one person it has to be a panel of people who are satisfied that he's not no longer a danger to society uh and and we need to build the facility charles because it doesn't exist yet it all we have right now is is jails and mental facilities that look like jails and we need i've said this before we need to build the facility, Charles, because it doesn't exist yet. All we take all this extra COVID money and we build that, this kid wouldn't have been in it. Not from what I've heard so far. And then here, he loved the violent video games. Okay. So do millions of other people

who would never do such a thing. I'd love to say it was Grand Theft Auto. Believe me, I would love to say that. Let's get rid of that. Great. I've been covering these too long. That's not it. And in my experience, the would-be shooter is attracted to those games and maybe perhaps likes to practice on them, but it doesn't make you a shooter. Getting rid of them doesn't solve it. This guy worked at a Wendy's where he reportedly freaked out some of the people. He was an odd guy. According to the Daily Beast, a colleague at Wendy's told them he walked around with a pair of boxing gloves at

the park. He asked people to fight him. He filmed it. He, quote, menaced co-workers, asking one of the cooks, do you know who I am? She says he would be very rude toward the girl sometimes. He would also send inappropriate texts to the ladies. Okay, again, we've seen that. He posted pictures of his guns. He had been bullied because of his stutter. His friend or cousin said she saw that herself and that he didn't want to go back to school after being mocked. He wasn't very much of a social person after being bullied for the stutter. Again, millions have been bullied far, far worse than it sounds like this kid ever got it, and don't turn to this stuff. He, I'll just give you another couple of things. The Daily Mail says he was described as nice, but quiet. Those who knew him described him as growing, quote, increasingly violent as he became older, though I'm not exactly sure what that means they said at one point according to um his friend

he uh showed up one time with cuts all over his face initially claiming he was scratched by a cat before admitting he did it to himself with a knife definitely a red flag there he drove around with another friend at night sometimes and shot at random people with a bb gun again this is not normal behavior but you i can see that also being chalked up at as he's a moronic teenager you know he's an idiot teen uh he egged people's cars same uh the post i mentioned posted the social media photos of automatic rifles that he wanted on his wish list that doesn't mean anything uh and so on and so forth so you know there's nothing here that makes me think he would go into my imaginary facility but there's also enough there that makes

me say where was his mother where were the school administrators where was his where where were the people who said we got to talk about this kid? Yeah, so I broadly agree with you on the need to commit more people than we do. I think we've gone too far in the other direction, where we've come to see many mental health issues as a choice or an alternative way of looking at the world when they're not. But as you say, perhaps that picks up the shooter in Buffalo, but it probably doesn't pick up this guy. And what he did is obviously evil, but it's also irrational. It's something of a non sequitur in that you wouldn't anticipate it. So let's look at his bullying. So he was bullied.

You could construct a circumstance in which he went after the person who had bullied him, but not a class full of unrelated 7- to 10-year-olds. Right. And that's another problem you have. If you look at, say, murder investigations, the first thing the police do is say, well, who do we think could have done this and what motive could we find? Were they angry with the victim?

Was the victim cheating with their wife or had they stolen from them? But in this case, what's the link? I mean, it's so beyond your imagination as a normal person that for a government or a mental health professional, it's quite hard to make the various constituent parts add up. And so we once again find ourselves sitting saying, what on earth just happened? They've scoured his social media. There was an eerie exchange with a young woman. All we know about her is that she was a minor.

I think she was in another state. It might have been California. I can't remember. And he had, yeah, she lives in Los Angeles. She claims to barely know this guy, but she posted screenshots of messages he sent her early Tuesday right before the shooting after tagging her in a picture of his rifles. And in these exchanges, he said he wanted to share quote, a little secret, L-I-L, little secret, and urged her to respond to him. This happened before it went down. There's a picture of these exchanges where

early that morning, it's like, I can't read my own right. It's like 5.43 a.m. He texts her, I'm about to. And she writes back, about to what? And he writes, I'll tell you before 11. Good morning. She says, good morning. And he writes, I'll tell you before 11. Good morning. She says, good morning. And he says, I'll text you in an hour. But you have to respond. And that's when he says, I got a little secret. I want to tell you.

And he never reveals it. He goes and does it. Now, of course, she knows what it is. He had moved in with his grandmother a few months ago. She was apparently in the process, according to the Washington Post, of evicting the shooter's mother from a separate house, which the grandmother owned. So there was family strife. The mother was apparently on drugs, had a drug problem of some sort. And the guns, Charles, which is where, of course, we're going to go next, were legally purchased. Once again, we have people focusing on the guns used. They were two AR-15s,

which he bought, I think it was on May 16th or shortly there. He turned 18 on May 16th. And within the past week or so, he bought these two guns. They were legally purchased. And again, a background check i this kid wouldn't have been red flagged for anything he hadn't been according to the cops today he wasn't in trouble with law enforcement they they were aware of the family because there had been so many domestic disturbances involving that the house that he shared with his mother prior to all this so they knew there was an issue there but that's not the same as he's a would-be shooter he's torturing animals.

You know, like he hadn't been red flagged for anything. So he would have passed a background check. Like I keep looking at all the gun laws, all the gun laws. And you're the perfect person to talk to about this because I know you're very pro Second Amendment. And I'm not a big Second Amendment person. You know, it's one of the amendments. It's a constitutional right. I get it.

But I'm not. Like, so I'm more like I'm a mom. If there's something that's actually going to protect my children, let's do it. And I don't really care if it upsets the people at the NRA. I couldn't care less. However, having looked at them all, especially after Parkland and Newtown, having taken a hard look, I don't see the thing, Charles. I don't see the thing. As a lawyer, I want to see the thing. I don't want to make an emotional decision. I realize it's just like, do it all. But realistically, show me the thing that's going to stop this kid, this next kid who looks like this kid from getting the guns. And there's nothing to blame it on right here. I don't know what would have stopped it. Well, I don't either. I mean, as you say,

I come out at a pro-Second Amendment position. I didn't always. You'll hear from my accent, I didn't grow up in America. And in fact, I used to have the opposite view, but I changed my mind. When something like this happens, I reset a little bit. And my brain says to me, all right, well, maybe we should just go all out. Maybe we should just do everything. That's a human reaction. That's the reaction I had after 9-11 too. Do whatever it takes. But as you start to reason through what that is, you realize that that's not a plan and that you need to do something far more concrete. And I tend to end up at the same place that I started. You know, let's accept the fact that this is the only country where this happens

regularly. It's not the only country in which it happens, but it's certainly the only country where this happens regularly. It's not the only country in which it happens, but it's certainly the only country in which it happens at this scale. Well, the question you then have to ask is, well, then what? You know, what is the difference between the United States and, say, Britain, where I'm from? Well, about 400 million privately owned guns is the answer and a constitutional right to bear them. I know people like to talk about the Supreme Court and they like to talk about the NRA, but that's not the reason that we have that many guns and that support for the right to keep and bear arms is where it is, that the people are the reason that it survives. There is no appetite for that in Britain, there is in the United States. There is no appetite for that in Britain.

There is in the United States. So you want to change that. Well, what would that involve? You have to amend the Constitution. But once you've done that, you'd really have to confiscate all of them. And it would be pretty traumatic, pretty violent. It would yield all sorts of objections from civil liberties groups, I think quite rightly. So if we're going to do that, then let's say we're going to do that.

But we're not going to do that. I think we all know that we're not going to do that. And so what we're going to do will be far more modest. And where I find this debate infuriating is that the more modest proposals that come up invariably have nothing to do with the problem that they are being suggested in response to. We saw this yesterday. President Biden said at his press conference, we need to do something, we need to stand up, we need to have the courage. And then Chuck Schumer in the Senate introduced two background check bills that have absolutely nothing to do with this,

that wouldn't have stopped this. And those two background check bills will now be sold by the Democratic Party and the press as a solution to what happened. And those who oppose them for whatever reason, will be cast as the problem, as obstinate, as recalcitrant. But of course, they're not. And I think what so irritates me about this is that we end up having this false debate, in which the people who are skeptical about passing more laws are told that they don't care about the underlying problem. And the people who are skeptical about passing more laws are told that they don't care about the underlying problem. And the people who are in favor of passing more laws, even if those laws have nothing to do with what happened, are cast as caring about it and as wanting to fix it when,

in fact, that's actually not what's happening at all. I think the people who say they don't know what to do are being admirably honest. And it's not, I'm afraid, it's not the easy position to take. It's actually terrifying to take that position. To say this horrible, devastating thing happens, and I don't really know what to do about it. It's not comforting at all. It's frightening. But I'm afraid that is the conclusion that I have come to. And I find myself in despair, but that's not a reason to back measures that really have nothing to do with this. What's in the Schumer proposed background check bill

and why is it not a good idea? Well, there's two things. The first one is to extend background checks to all transfers, even private transfers within the same state. The second is to extend the period that the federal government can block you from purchasing a firearm if you come up as on the flag list. So on the first one, all commercial transfers of firearms and all transfers of firearms between two states are subject to a federal background check. So if you go to a gun store, you need a background check before you can buy a gun. Or if you live in Georgia and you sell a gun to someone

in Florida, you need a federal background check before you can make that transfer. If you transfer a gun to someone in Florida, you don't need to involve a background check. Now, there are many states that have implemented their own background check rules, so California, Connecticut, New York. If the people in those states transfer a firearm, then they need to use a background check. But in most states, that is not the case. The arguments against this are many. One is the federal government doesn't have the authority to

regulate intrastate private transfers. Another is once you get into the details, and this is where the sticking point has been really with Tumi Manchin and its offshoots, it's quite difficult to determine what a transfer is. So, you know, is a transfer me lending someone a gun to go hunting? If it is, what does that do to families? What does that do to friends who gets excluded? Does that make it useless? The biggest objection is that if every single transfer in the United States is essentially recorded by the federal government, then we have a gun registry and gun registries are outlawed. I'm not spitting at the mouth against this proposal. I just don't see the point of it given that this hasn't done anything. No, name me one mass shooting where that was the origin of the gun.

Right. Exactly. That's exactly it. So you end up bureaucratizing an awful lot of American life in pursuit of a policy that actually doesn't intersect with mass shootings but is being sold on their behalf. That's why that's stalled out. The second one is defensible. At the moment, if I go to a gun store and my name comes up on the flag list and they say, sorry, you can't have it, they have three days to investigate and confirm that I was not allowed to buy a gun. Otherwise, I get the gun. This is a

simple due process requirement. It's really no different than any other. If the police arrest me and then they can't provide evidence that justifies my detention, then I get to go home. We can argue about how long that should be. The Toomey Manchin bill actually would have reduced that to one day. There are some proposals in Congress that would extend it to 10. I think Chuck Schumer does that too. We could talk about 7 or 14 or 20 or 100. But after a certain point, we are going to have a due process protection in place for the exercise of a constitutional right. I think due process protections are really important. So, you know, while I'm not, again, spitting fire over this,

I don't see a particular need to change that away from three. And the one case that has ever intersected with this, which was the massacre in Charleston. Yes. And that wasn't quite as neatly connected to this as the people who wrote this bill say. He said the allegation in that case is that that shooter who went into a predominantly African-American church and killed, I think it was nine, ten people, that he had applied for the gun. They had done the background check on him. You know, he wanted the gun. The three days went by and there had been no objection from the feds. So they gave him the gun after three days.

Well, yeah, I mean, there are a number of problems in that. The first one is that he should have been in the system in a more concrete way. And he wasn't, which is a data entry problem. And Congress has actually tried to fix that. They passed this bill called the Fix NICS Act, which helps to plug that hole. But the other reason it's not that neat is that he went and committed his horrendous murder spree about two months after that whole process. So three days, 10 days, 20 days wouldn't have made a difference. Again, I can see the argument for it, but I can also see the argument for changing the amount of time police are allowed to hold suspects.

I just would point out that after a certain point, we're not going to allow the indefinite detention of human beings, and we're not going to allow the indefinite suspension of their constitutional rights either. The broader point here is that nothing that Chuck Schumer has introduced or plans to introduce have anything to do with what happened in Texas. And yes, I am strongly opposed to draconian gun control because I think that it won't work. I think there are just too many guns in circulation. I think we'll end up with another prohibition. But I would be far more comfortable with those who say do something if they just came out and said, do something draconian. Let's become Japan, South Korea, Britain. I'm not trying to strawman them.

I'm not trying to pretend that's what they're arguing for. I accept that it's not. What I am saying is that pointing to what happened in Texas, which makes me want to cry right now on the show, pointing to that and saying, therefore, we have to do insert non sequitur here is just not helpful. It's not virtuous. And it's a distraction from putting our focus on what might actually be the problem. I mean, I say this to my friends. All of my friends are New York City liberals. Most of them are New York City liberals. And all of us have been texting and we're all moms. And my friends are New York City liberals. Most of them, not all, most of them are New York City liberals. And all of us have been texting and we're all moms. And my friends are like, F this. You know, it should be a lot harder to get a gun.

Why is it so easy to get a gun in America? You know, there can be barriers to it. And I continue to say, like, show me the thing that would have prevented it. And they're very focused on AR-15s. I want to pick it up with you there. Taking away the AR-15s. The AR-15 is just a semi-automatic gun that's longer. It's like, do you know how many semi-automatic handguns there are in America?

The Virginia Tech massacre, which remains the worst school massacre ever in American history, involved a semi-automatic couple of them, handguns like a Glock, which no one's even proposing that we would get rid of and which would never be gotten rid of. There's absolutely no appetite to get rid of a gun like that. So it's like, okay, you can get rid of the what, 15 million AR-15s there are, maybe 20 at the month 15, I think. That's not going to do it. All right. I want to talk about the specific guns and Joe Biden's renewed push for an assault weapons ban right after this. Breaking news, this just in from ABC News, speaking just a short time ago to the shooter's grandfather. Keep in mind, the shooter was living with his grandmother. One presumes the grandfather as well, though we don't know that.

The grandfather says the family had no idea that he had purchased two guns for his birthday, again, which was on May 16th. Here he is speaking with ABC News. Would he spend a lot of time in his room alone? Yes. Sometimes he would go, I'd take him to work with me. Not all the time, but I would take him to work. And it didn't seem like he went to school very often.

No, well, this past year he didn't go to school. He didn't graduate, but he didn't go to school. Why? I don't know. You know, you tell them, you tell them, and they think they know kids nowadays, they know everything. Everybody says, yeah, he almost didn't talk very much. No, he didn't talk very much. Did he talk to you?

Well, just when we go to work or here or there, you know. Did you know that he bought those weapons? Like I say, I don't like weapons. I cannot be around weapons. Because you have a record. Yeah. And it's illegal for you to actually be around them. Yeah, that's right.

I cannot be around guns. I hate when I see all the news, all those people that get shot. I'm against all that. I say, why do they let these people buy guns and all that? Those stupid whatever they shoot. And Rolando, when you heard about the shooting, what did you do? Did you even know that it was your grandson? No, the neighbor called me.

Oh, wow. Good gracious. Back with me now, Charles C.W. Cook, senior writer at National Review. He said the grandmother who he revealed the shooter shot in the head, says the grandfather who had a past felony conviction and was not allowed to be in a home with firearms. I don't know what's happening there, Charles. Obviously, the grandparents not paying enough attention and the kids not going to school. The kids alone or the kids not talking. The kids amassing an arsenal. He didn't just have the two guns, the two AR-15s.

He had a ton of ammo. It was 375 rounds of ammunition, 5.56 ammunition, and this plate carrier, a kind of vest designed to carry bulletproof body armor, though there was no body armor inside of it, we're told during the actual shooting. I mean, you know, most parents would know if their kid had something like that going on in the room. These grandparents didn't. The grandfather confirmed what we reported earlier, which is he didn't live with the mother because they had problems. So it doesn't illuminate anything. It's just sort of interesting. Meantime, you have Joe Biden, as he did after Buffalo, calling for the renewal of the assault weapons ban, which he's

been pushing for years and years and years. And he says it works. He says he knows it works, that mass shootings went down when it was in place for 10 years. And that's what we need again. Here's just a bit more, not necessarily on that particular point, but on what Joe Biden's messaging was last night when he spoke to this. The parents who will never see their child again, never have them jump in bed and cuddle with them. Parents will never be the same. To lose a child is like having a piece of your soul ripped away.

As a nation, we have to ask, when in God's name are we going to stand up to the gun lobby? When in God's name we do what we all know in our gut needs to be done. I am sick and tired of it. We have to act. And don't tell me we can't have an impact on this carnage. The idea that an 18-year-old kid can walk into a gun store and buy two assault weapons is just wrong. What in God's name do you need an assault weapon for except to kill someone? Deer aren't running through the forest with Kevlar vests on,

for God's sake. It's just sick. For God's sake, we have to have the courage to stand up to the industry. Wearing God's name is our backbone. To have the courage to deal with it and stand up to the lobbies. What do you make of it? The first thing I would say is that he did what I described earlier, which is imply that we all know secretly what to do, but that some of us refuse,

and that therefore this is an issue, a debate, between people who care about it and people who don't. That's wrong. I think that infuriates people, and rightly so. Whenever I hear him do that, I remember some of the excesses on the right after September 11th, where people would say, if you don't agree with our particular proposal as to what we need to do in foreign policy or counterterrorism, or what you will, then you must not care about what happened in New York, which of course was not true, and was deeply unfair. I think that framing is ugly. On the specifics,

so I think in the interest of fairness, it's true that if there were a so-called assault weapon ban, it's a totally misleading term, but I assume that it means AR-15 ban in Texas or federally, that the shooter would not have been able to buy two of them. So let's stipulate that. And let's also stipulate that if the same age rules applied to shotguns and rifles as applied to handguns, then he wouldn't have been able to buy any firearms. In the state of Florida, all firearms have a 21 age limit. In Texas, it's 18 for shotguns and rifles and 21 per federal law for handguns. The problem that I see with that, and the problem I think a lot of people, including many now within the gun control movement as well, have come to acknowledge, is that getting rid of a particular subset of semi-automatic weapons from the purchase point doesn't solve the issue because people will just substitute out the gun that they use. And we saw that, unfortunately, at one of the worst massacres in American history at Virginia Tech. And you said earlier, you can do precisely the

same thing with a Glock. And there is just no appetite whatsoever to ban handguns. It has about 20% support in the United States. So why would we focus on this, especially when it is true that when it comes to mass shootings, that mass shooters seem to have a bit of a fetish for the AR-15. But it's not true that if you look at statistics in gun murders, that the AR-15 or indeed rifles are much of a problem at all. In fact, there are so few murders committed every year with so-called assault rifles. The FBI doesn't keep statistics. There are actually more people in America killed every year with hands and fists and feet than with all rifles combined. If you want to look at the problem in suicides and in murders, it's handguns. And that was always the focus. It's recently changed because these spectacular mass shootings that send us all reeling tend to involve rifles. But they wouldn't if you changed the purchase rules.

So I just, you know, I think this is a red herring. I think it is telling that even though it would directly address what happened, you know, Chuck Schumer didn't introduce a bill on this. I think it is telling that support for banning so-called assault weapons have diminished over time. It is statistically wrong to say that the 1994 ban that I think Joe Biden wrote did much of anything. Study after study shows that it didn't. Columbine happened while it was in effect.

This is a very, very difficult issue. I will just say for those people who are much more in favor of gun control than I am, it is obviously the case that the United States has a problem here in a way that many other countries don't because it is awash with guns. I mean, that is clearly true. This doesn't happen so often in England because the guns just aren't available. The difference, though, is that there are already 400 million guns here in circulation. That's the thing. trying to ban the most commonly owned rifle in the United States, I don't think that is going to make much of a difference. It would if there were zero guns in the United States, we'd be having a completely different conversation then. But those guns exist. And,

you know, I don't think that's the solution here. And no, I don't know what is. Yeah, that's the thing. This is the hand we've been dealt is that the guns are out there. There are more guns in America than there are people in America. Over 400 million by want protection. And a lot of people who grow up or live like I do or have for most of my adult life in cities don't think it's necessary because they got a big police force. And if you call 911, they'll be there. And it's, you know, they just can't even imagine how people along the southern border or more rural communities are living, genuinely worried about self-defense and the need to protect their families. You know, God forbid crime should arrive at their doorstep. So there's all sorts of reasons why we are the way we are. And it's written right into the constitution. And even

if tomorrow there were a constitutional ban on all guns in America, good luck, good luck getting 400 million guns back. So yeah, I'm in, I'm philosophically, I'm in the same place. It's like, this is the hand we've been dealt. We have to do something about it. And yet, this is one of the really disturbing cases because I just don't see what could have been done. Yes, it would have been nice if his parents and his grandparents had been better, more attentive, if his school had been better, more attentive, if the community had red flagged him in some way, if the guy who sold him the AR-15s had said, seems like a little off, you know, maybe there's some sort of a social media search that they do. Who knows?

That doesn't seem plausible. But those are all like the comfort checks we go through now at the airport with the shoes coming off. Does absolutely nothing. Makes someone somewhere feel better and really leaves us in exactly the same security position we would have otherwise been in. I agree with you. And we also have quite an interesting political landscape to deal with. That's right. In which conservatives broadly are strongly in favor of the Second Amendment and progressives

are not, but are also increasingly worried about what they call the carceral state, what they see as over-incarceration, as overzealous prosecutors, as a school-to-prison pipeline that disproportionately affects people, in their view, who aren't white. And I think the combination of those actually makes it very difficult to do anything because on the one hand, you have people who aren't particularly invested in the Second Amendment. They'll say, well, we need laws and laws and laws and laws to deal with this. And of course, conservatives say no, but then those people don't actually want to enforce them. And so you have this strange paradox

where, for example, there's a Supreme Court case pending at the moment in New York, where you have progressive defense lawyers filing amicus briefs with the Supreme Court saying, actually, we would like the gun laws in New York loosened because they have a devastating effect on my clients and their communities. Right. And making this very different argument out of the other side. I got to wrap, Charles, but thank you. Thanks for being here today. We really appreciate it. Thanks. When we come back, Neil Heslin, friend and Sandy Hook dad dad will be with us.

Joining us now is Neil Heslin, father of Jesse Lewis, a victim of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting that claimed the lives of 20 first graders and six school employees. Jesse was just six years old when he was killed, 11 days before Christmas, 2012. In a final act of bravery that day, while in grave danger, Jesse shouted, run, to his fellow classmates. That decision is believed to have saved several lives, though Jesse's would not be one of them. Neil Heslin has been an example in dignity throughout his unwanted time in the national news. He has, with class and love, honored the memory of his son in public and in private despite his own personal pain, and knows all too well the hell that certain Uvalde parents are going through today. Neil, thank you so much for being here today.

Thank you, Megan. I can't imagine what this brings up for you. It must bring back so much. Thank you, Megan. This tragedy that happened yesterday, it really touched home or a little closer to the heart. Not that they all don't. Being that it was an elementary school, young children, it just, it was, I heard about it in the afternoon. And then I, a little later in the evening, I heard more about it on the news and watching it on the news. It just completely reminded me of Sandy Hook and almost like an instant replay of it. The fact that the shooter killed his grandmother and just being in elementary school and breaching the entry

and watching the news coverage of the school and the response, first responders, it just all opened up news coverage of the school and the response first responders it just all opened up that whole wound again and there's just no

words for it these shootings and the school shootings that we come to expect in society now and it's an awful thing to say, but it's a true fact. They just keep happening over and over again. And the tragedy that happened in Buffalo last week, it's something we know is going to happen again.

And I just want to say that my heart goes out to the families and the victims of the tragedy yesterday and also the community. I know firsthand so well what they're going through. the news last night, family members waiting to see if their loved ones were at the hospital or that sense of not knowing. It brought me back to the night at the firehouse and Sandy Hook that afternoon, not knowing Not knowing if Jesse was a victim or if he survived somehow. Sadly, he did not. And it just opened up the whole, for me, it opened up that whole tragedy again. Yeah. You know so well what I've

been through and seen at first hand over the years. I just couldn't help but think about what these families have to deal with in the future to come. I pray to God

they won't have to endure what we from Sandy Hook have had to endure, being a public tragedy. My heart definitely goes out to them. My thoughts and prayers are with the families and the victims and the community. They're going to need them. They're going to need the thoughts and prayers of you and all of us right now. I mean, I know your story well. I know Jesse's story well. But if you don't mind, I would like to take the audience through it a bit because I think there's some healing value to be had in understanding what happened before to better understand what's happening now. And I know the morning of December 14th, 2012, you had Jesse, you're divorced from Jesse's mom, you're not with Scarlett, but you

had him with you and you took him to a diner. You had a nice morning. I was talking earlier about how you drop your kids off at school and it's sort of a happy moment. Yeah, they're going off. They're going to be with their buddies. In this case, it was right before the end of school. In Jesse's case, it was shortly before the Christmas holiday. And I know you remember well the last couple of things he said to you and they're so meaningful to this day. I remember walking into the school that day and holding my hand or my finger, and walking across the parking lot. He had said, it was too bad we didn't get to do the gingerbread house

at St. Leonard's last night. And I said, that's all right, Jess. We're going to do them today at school and he said no we're not it's not going to happen and i we were supposed to go that afternoon into his classroom to make gingerbread houses and that week we'd gotten all the supplies and dropped them off to the teacher. I guess jelly beans and tin foil, cardboard. Each of the kids had something to bring. And he was right.

It never happened. It wasn't happening. And I remember him saying, giving me a hug that day and saying, getting out of the truck. It'll be all right, Dad. Don't worry. Everything will be okay. And it was kind of out of the blue. It wasn't anything that was extremely different than our normal chaos or problems or life problems and uh

it was 904 when i walked through those doors and the. Around the corner he went, and he said, love you. And that was his last words I heard from him. And I sat in the parking lot probably until 25 after the hour, doing some phone calls and i finished his hot chocolate and egg sandwich he didn't have and i pulled out of there i i very well could have drove past the shooter when he was coming in it was within minutes and then shortly, there was a message that came over the cell phones and phones. There was a shooting in Newtown. Schools were in lockdown.

Then it said that there was a shooting in town, in a school. The second message, the third message said it was at Sandy Hook Elementary School. So we proceeded back to the school. And I would guess about a half, probably 40 minutes or so after the shooting, I arrived back there at the firehouse. And the only way to describe it, it was like a war zone with state police, law enforcement, FBI, SWAT team. Very chaotic, but very well organized on the responders' part. There were a lot of students that were in the, shortly thereafter, coming into the firehouse that were in the school that they escorted out. I don't recall what time that was exactly.

Of course, we looked for Jesse and never found him. But the information wasn't real clear. It was as to how many victims there were, or how many were injured, how many were wounded. I never gave up the hope that he would survive, or he got, he was, got out somehow. And about 1 a.m.

when we were notified or I was notified, confirmed as he was one of the victims. But that was more or less, and it was a lot more to happen that day that sets to my mind, too. You know, I know the families went through that yesterday. I know, I remember thinking a day or two, the next day, I guess, was about having to plan a funeral for Jesse. I remember going to the funeral home, thinking to myself, how am I ever going to be able to afford this?

Knowing I had to bury him, it didn't matter. I was going to get it done. I walked into the funeral home. The funeral director said, explained what was available and said, you know, there was so much, so the services that were donated was definitely, it helped the situation. These families are going to go through the same thing, find a burial plot. I mean, it's just those little things that we, when we have these shootings or these tragedies, we never, people never share that with it. It's always, we jump onto the agenda of gun control, the agenda of mental health. These people's lives in this community are forever changed. The victims' families' lives are forever changed.

Void that never can be refilled or replaced. And as this time went on, you become a target for so many things. People come out of the woodwork to exploit the tragedy, to solicit off the tragedy for financial gain. And it breaks my heart to know that these families are gone. I pray to God they don't endure that and it doesn't happen. It continuously happens over and over again.

It's a good point, Neil. You know, when you lose a child in any circumstances, it's absolutely devastating. But to then have to have your pain exploited and have the situation compounded by bad actors, which has happened now repeatedly since Newtown, takes it to a whole different level. And that's also sadly likely to be part of their story. Political operators trying to push through agendas that they've long been pushing and using this to do it. And also, you know, we have to talk about the insanity of, yes, Alex Jones, who I know you are suing and want to default judgment against with some other Newtown parents. fringe lunatic community that gets together to say, don't touch our guns. The desire to take our guns is so big that a group of parents got together and faked this. The Newtown families had to endure that. And other families since then have had to endure that by people who are so

ardent in their fringe beliefs that they actually think a parent would do something like this. And I know you've dealt with that firsthand. It's all very true what you said. But, you know, one of the things that really comes to light to me is within hours or days of the Sandy Hook tragedy, the United Way came forward and was raising funds and accommodating and collecting donations that were coming into the community. As time went on, it became a big fight. Donors thought that funds would be going to the families who directly need it, the community.

And they weren't. That wasn't the plan with it. They really didn't have a plan. It took a lot of fighting by the families. It took Ken Feinberg, an attorney, to come up with a plan as to how to distribute those funds. And it never worked out the way it should. But every tragedy and shooting that's happened after this, it has been the same thing these organizations come in and the capital try to capitalize off of these tragedies

and yes some of the funds do go to the victims and the community but there's a large part of them that just never make it there there are a few funds that are set up

that 100% of those funds do go to the victims and the families and the people who need one of them. It's the National Compassion Fund. And that, I believe, is the one that's handling the donations in Buffalo. That's good to know. That's good to know because you never know. Good-hearted people want to help. They don't know how to help.

They do tend to donate. So it's good to know. National Compassion Fund, you like. But when we have these tragedies, I'm sure you, myself, everybody, our hearts are broken and our first thought is, how can we help? Well, we'll send some donation. I just can't stress enough anybody that wants to help

and has the intent of financially sending a donation. I'm not discouraging that, but just please make sure you know where that is going and that it will get to the people who need it, the victims or the families, the community. No, it's a good caution. And I know for a fact, the National Compassion Fund is,

it's 100% goes to the victims and the family and the ones in need. You know, Neil, you mentioned how immediately we go to gun laws and we go to mental health and we do like our forensic analysis of what needs to change. And I think it is a coping mechanism, right? To make us feel like we can control it. We can make sure it doesn't happen again. Things that we have proven unable to do.

You're in a unique position having lived this and the Newtown families have gone different ways and don't all feel uniformly about any one issue. But how do you feel? I mean, do you have any particular insights 10 years later on how to prevent something like this? Yeah, I have a lot of insight on it. And I can share that shortly. But, you know, we have these shootings, whether these mass killings or murders, attacks, the weapon of choice always seems to be a gun. Reason being, it's the most effective weapon to carry out these crimes.

And most of them are semi-automatic weapons because they're most effective to have the second amendment in this country that should be protected and we shouldn't infringe upon that the answer isn't to go and take all

the guns away from people or ban weapons. There definitely is a lot of room for improvement, whether it be through background checks, which I fully support. You know, being more observant to red flag with people, I guess, or individuals. But the problem with this shooter in Texas with that is he was 18 years old. He probably did not have a criminal record, wouldn't have shown up on a criminal background check.

I don't know how he obtained a gun, whether it was legally, illegally. But if it was through illegal channels, he would have never shown up, probably, with a criminal background. That's how it looks. It looks like he did not have a criminal history and that he did purchase both firearms legally. what his mental state was. But we, you know, the things we need to address are definitely the background checks is a key there. The mental health is something

that should be addressed and how to incorporate the mental health into a background check. And that's not something that's been enabled to get accomplished because the HIPAA laws prohibit that. With the case with the schools, how did this individual get in there? I did hear he overpowered the officer that was there. I don't know if that was through a gunfight or how that happened. We are being told at this hour, Neal, that the teachers and staff were banned from carrying guns at this school. Yet to be confirmed.

But that's the initial report. As for the security officer, yeah, initial reports are that the gunman overtook him. You know, he had a breach entry to get into the school. I think a centralized entry point in the front door, the ballistic-proof glass, the ballistic- glass, ballistic proof entryways. So those are all things that are very beneficial and a necessity. But our resource officers at these schools are only as good, only as effective as the training they have and the equipment they have.

The presence, yes, it's a deterrent. But if you have an armed individual there, security personnel, resource officer, that's a bigger deterrent and a much stronger deterrent to an armed gunman than an unarmed resource officer. And you have a highly trained individual who is willing to engage with an active shooter or an armed gunman. That's a lot bigger deterrent for a gunman knowing that they're going to be shot at and fired back at. It's a whole different mindset when you're getting shot at than doing the shooting.

So I fully support armed resource officers in the schools. I know that's been a big controversy. But it's something that we have in society now. Our airports, sporting events, so many places we go, we have armed security there. Yeah, even synagogues now have armed security and have fortifications outside of them. Sadly, they need them too, but the schools have not really been fortified, um, to the extent a lot of parents would like to see. So I, I, I take your point. Can I ask you, Neil? Cause I think, you know, one of the things I I'd like to know, um, is whether like what your message is to the parents who are suffering down there you know i

i know you didn't take down that christmas tree that you and jesse decorated together for four years um i just wonder whether there's a message right there the uh yeah go ahead the christmas The tree is, the Christmas tree is down. That I did take down after so many years, five years, I guess, maybe a little more than five years. But it's probably the last thing they want to hear. But,, everybody, we all get through it. Uh, it's the worst thing in the world to lose a child. Um, I wouldn't wish it upon anybody. I, I didn't know how I was going to get through it. I literally couldn't see any further than 10 feet in front of me.

I could see no light at the end of the tunnel but it there's a lot of support out there there's a lot of people families and other individuals who have gone through what these this community and going through. And there's a lot of support there. I'm here any way I could support the victims' families, the community, anything I could do. I'm here to do that. Have you managed to find joy? Yeah, I've managed to move on and be able to.

I mean, I haven't forgot what happened. It's forever etched in my mind, but I've been able to move on. The first thing you have to do is accept what happened. You can't change it. You don't have to like it, clearly. But you have to accept it. And when you're able to accept it, you can move forward. And, you know, I was 50 when I lost Jesse

I'm 60 now and I have hopefully I have a few good years left but you know I want to enjoy what time I have left I don't want to quit feeling sorry for myself

or feel like I'm feeling like I'm the victim. Uh, I, I have the strength now, the knowledge, the ability, the ability to,

to be a, be a support for people who are going through what I went through 10 years ago. The other thing that happened with Sandy Hook and hopefully it's not going to happen anymore is the conspiracy theories and the hoaxers that had derived

out of after Sandy Hook. Wolfgang Halvick's, Jim Fetzer, the Alex Jones's. And, you know, these people attack the victims' families and the dead, the victims, at the weakest moment. And you have no resource and don't know how to handle it, being called a liar for criminal intent and criminal purposes,

crisis actor. I mean, these things are awful. And when you've lost the most valuable thing in your life and then to have to deal with this harassment. And it's just, it's an unspeakable sin and it's, it's terrorism. Yeah. And fortunately, I found the strength and the guidance to stand up and fight for my rights. And it seems like I've made success with that. And I hope that's despite deterrent from other tragedies. That's something we all need to be on the lookout for

because the family should not have to deal with this. They should not have had to file lawsuits against people harassing you over whether your son did or did not die. It's unspeakably awful. Definitely not about me. I share my experience, but I have a lot of support across the board from people. A lot of people reached out to me yesterday to see how I was handling this because they all saw the similarities of what happened to me, but the focus of the sport needs to be on the people of the community and the victims' they're the ones that need the help now.

And they're the ones that can use the help in the weeks and the months to come and years to come. I'll end it with this, Neil, Jesse left you the roadmap of how he'd like you to live this life, how you, how I think he'd like you to heal and how he'd like you to live this life, how I think he'd like you to heal, and how he'd like you to live this life.

Didn't he? He left you two notes on the chalkboard and in his half-brother's. Yep, that's true. Nurturing, healing, love. And the message he left for his brother, written on a piece of paper, was have a lot of fun. He definitely, I never looked at it the way you just shared that, Megan. But yeah, he did leave a road roadmap for his message.

My roadmap wasn't quite that clear, but I've definitely acquired the tools over the years to, I think, make a change. And the strength to go with that. You know, I'm sure in the days, weeks, and months to come, we're going to see the gun control agenda ramp up, and especially with the, you know, where we're at with the political side of it now. I think you're going to be, Sheeta, probably try to reintroduce bills for gun bans and confiscation. I don't think we'll see much change or much success

sadly with that but I definitely support people who are out there to support their agendas and their beliefs but I hope we could at least

improve the laws we have, strongly address the mental health issue, and improve the school security. Yeah, fortification and when we have these tragedies we you know we have to whatever failed there on this the end of security of and not to blame uh and i'm putting blame on the school or a resource officer but what we need to look at is what failed that in this situation that enabled them to breach entry um we we learned from we have to learn from these tragedies and we can't bring back the people we lost we're jesse and we just gotta try to come up with things to prevent these tragedies uh and shootings. In the meantime, I feel like we'll all do well,

but especially the Texas families, nurturing, healing, love, if we follow Jesse's words. It's an amazing message for him to have left on Scarlett's chalkboard and for her to have found after his passing, nurturing, healing, love. Neil, thank you so much.

Thank you for being here and sharing your story with us all the best to you yeah thank you megan have a good day you too my god that man has just been i'll never forget i the first time i heard neil i was live on the air it was shortly after newtown i was pregnant Thatcher, and he testified before Congress and had a picture of Jesse and was talking about the tragedy in the most compelling, gripping 20 minutes plus. Maybe it was 60 minutes. I remember we blew out the rest of the show just to listen to him and just so loving and kind and not angry, right? Not, not angry. Like who, who in his position shortly after this tragedy in Newtown would defend the second amendment? But he did, you know, and that's his view. Not everybody feels the same. It's that's fine. That was his point, right? Everyone should be able to express their views and they're going to be all over the board and we should be respectful of them all. And we should

be open-minded. Everything should be on the table, I still think, in the wake of a tragedy like this. Thank you all for spending this day with me. I really am grateful and we'll talk more tomorrow.