The Megyn Kelly Show - Trans Activist Emotional Blackmail, Silencing Women, and Redefining Words to Win Arguments, with Helen Joyce | Ep. 590

Episode Date: July 19, 2023

Megyn Kelly is joined by Helen Joyce, author of "Trans: When Ideology Meets Reality," to talk about how trans activists are changing the language to redefine women, the silencing of women’s safety concerns, the dangers of allowing the opposite sex into single-sex spaces, why all-gender spaces are actually less dangerous, how social media censorship is key to trans activism,the capture of children medical agencies in America, why America's polarization makes the problem worse, Biden administration official Rachel Levine once saying how glad he was to have had kids and transition later in life, now saying kids should be able to transition during puberty, what autogynephilia is and how it relates to some transgender people, Asa Hutchinson's misinformed statement about "gender-affirming care," celebrities bragging about their "trans" and "queer" kids, the "emotional blackmail" on the issue of "gender affirming care" related to suicide, what the reality of suicide within the trans community really is, and more.Find more from Helen Joyce: https://www.thehelenjoyce.com/Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms: YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKellyTwitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at: https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Before we get to today's program, which I am so excited about, I want to tell you that tomorrow we are going to be bringing you one heck of an exclusive interview. In just about an hour from right now, as we are live on the air at Sirius XM Triumph Channel 111, two IRS whistleblowers, one whose name we know, one whose name we're about to find out, are about to testify before Congress about Hunter Biden and corruption at their former agency, the IRS. Tomorrow, they will join me together for their very first joint interview. We do not even know as of the moment I'm speaking to you what the name of the second whistleblower is who's booked to come on the show tomorrow.

We've been dealing with their counsel. So we're very excited to have them both come on tomorrow. We're devoting the entire show to that interview so that we can get to the bottom of everything that happened and that they've been alleging publicly now in the wake of this congressional testimony that they're going to give today. And I'm sure there'll be plenty of blowback tonight, which we'll get to ask them about. Thank you to them for agreeing to the interview. And thanks to all of you for tuning in for it. But first, we are joined today for the full show by someone

you have requested many, many times. And now I have read her book twice. It is well worth the time. I listened to it via audio. I read it myself. I read my team's packet on it. I can't get enough of it. I learned something new each time. And that woman's name is Helen Joyce. She's a journalist and author who has studied the roots of transgender ideology, how it became mainstream, and she provides much needed pushback on some of the most repeated claims that we get from these trans activists. As Helen points out, arguably one of the most detrimental aspects of this ideology is its erasure of women and safe single sex spaces. It is something I brought attention to many times here on this show, as you know, from the case of

the Connecticut Runners, the girls who were forced to compete against boys who said they were transgender in high school, two members of the University of Wyoming's Kappa Kappa Gamma sorority, who were forced to welcome a biological man into their chapter only to be subjected, according to their allegations, with him pleasuring himself and dealing with his erection as he watched these poor girls doing yoga and getting changed and behaving like normal young women in their sorority house. There's a lawsuit over all of that right now. Helen has been calling attention to this for quite some time, and she is the journalist and author of the book, Trans, When Ideology Meets Reality. Helen, welcome to the show. It's so great to meet you.

It's absolutely brilliant to be on, Megan. I'm so excited about this interview. Thank you so much. Can I tell you, I want to tell you in the audience something. So you were booked to come on, I don't know, a month or two ago, probably two months ago. And my team prepares me packets for anybody who's coming on and they're in depth. And so if I don't get to read an entire book, I usually have a good idea of what's in it thanks to the research packets. Well, I'm reading yours. And as soon as I got halfway, I'm like this. We have to move her. I want to read the entire book. There's no way I'm half assing this. I need to know everything this woman thinks about every single thing related to this subject. And as I said now,

I've read the book and listened to it a total of three times. So thrill, thrill, thrill. This is way more exciting to me than meeting like a Jennifer Aniston. Meeting Helen Joyce is like I'm starstruck. So thrilled, thrilled, thrilled to have access to you and your brilliant, brilliant mind. Okay, sorry. Well, thank you. Well, I'm fangirling too, so we can do it mutually and move on.

Okay, good. Okay, this is where I want to start. The woman who runs Human Rights Campaign, this group that used to be all about gay rights, but now is transmogrified into all about trans rights. Her name is Kelly Robinson, and she sent out a tweet not long ago that I see often from these trans activists. And her tweet read, trans women are women. That's it. That's the tweet. It's a lie.

And the more I read your book, the more I came to realize why the lie is so important to their activists and why it's so important for us on the side of reality and reason to call it out as a lie. That trans women are in fact men. They are biological men. They are men. And them trying to change that understanding, it's for a reason and it's critical to them winning this debate.

Can you expand on that? Sure. I mean, this is a movement that is entirely linguistic. I mean, we aren't actually able to change sex. Everyone who has ever thought about anything about human beings knows we're mammals. We know we evolved that way and mammals can't change sex. You're conceived male or female, and that's what you're going to grow up. A man who castrates himself does not become a woman. A woman who has a neophallus crafted out of her thigh and stitched onto her groin does not become a man. We all know that. So the only meaning that you can give to statements like trans women or women is a linguistic one. It's all about words, that we're changing the definition of words and that by changing the words, we change the reality. And that's why this is a movement that is so keen

on censoring people. Because as far as they're concerned, when you say, as you just did, no trans women are men, that speech act is creating a reality that they don't like. And so they must silence you to give space for the speech act that they like, which is trans women are women, full stop, no debate, that's it, that's the tweet. And by saying it, they think that creates reality. It's sort of a queer theory thing. It comes very much from universities, this postmodern turn, they call it, in which you think that everything is socially constructed, that everything is about language, that the words that you use can erase all sorts of inconvenient facts about the world, and you end up with the

world that you want because it's the world that you're creating with your words. We have lost the debate if we say women aren't allowed in women's bathrooms, women aren't allowed in women's prisons and women's locker rooms. And that's their design. If we say men are not allowed in our private spaces, of course, that's accepted. Everybody understands why we don't want that. And you expand on that a lot in the book about how all of these single sex spaces came to be in the first place for very good reason. And if you can just remember in your head that they came to be to protect women from men, which trans women are, then you understand why most women are very animated over this issue. And actually, most Americans and most Brits who are now starting to pay attention are on the side of reason and understand that this is a dangerous,

very slippery slope we're on. It's not about inclusion of them. It's about danger to us. That's the way to frame this, because that's what's really at issue here. Exactly. And the word inclusion has become such a buzzword that we forget that a lot of things depend on exclusion, in particular definitions do. A definition of what a woman is necessarily excludes all men and vice versa. And yet when you say, oh, well, I want to be inclusive. Well, who do you want to be inclusive of? If this space is only for children, it can't be inclusive of adults. If it's only for women, it can't be inclusive for men. That's just definitional. And yet, because everyone has got very bound up in the idea that inclusion is good and exclusion

is bad, the language plays into their narrative that you're the meanie, you're excluding people. And you're like, well, of course I'm excluding them. This is meant to be a women-only space. Why would I include men? It can't be women-only. I remember shortly after my book came out, going to an event and saying that I never imagined, I mean, I spent far too long in education, Megan. I did a maths degree and then I went on and did a PhD in mathematics and I stayed and did a postdoc. And I never thought that I was going to spend the most

important part of my working life saying, once you allow a man into a space for women, it ceases to be single sex. Because this isn't even logical, it's just a truism. And yet I find myself saying, we can't allow people who aren't in a group into a space that's just a truism. And yet I find myself saying, you know, we can't allow people who aren't in a group into a space that's meant just for that group and keep it only for that group. Like sometimes I think the noise is not coming out of my mouth. Am I moving my lips and nothing's happening? You know, it's so very obvious. Right. But this was, I mean, I actually, of course, because until this whole thing exploded, I never gave any thought to why we have women's bathrooms and women's locker rooms or changing rooms at the public pools. And you get into the stats on on why excluding all males, you write from places where women are at heightened risk of assault is a broad rush measure. And you write justifying it does not

require that all males are violent. But the stats show that of the people on this earth who are violent and who commit sexual assault, the scales are overwhelmingly weighted with men, not women. It's virtually all men. You write sex offenders make up 19 percent of the 84000 male prisoners, just four percent of the female ones. Women are around five times more likely than men to be the victim of a sexual crime. And men are 100 times more likely to be the perpetrator of a sexual crime. I mean, this is why we needed a safe space, let's face it, if we're going to be pulling up our dresses

and pulling down our pants and taking off our clothes, where we did not want anyone in that category to be near us. And those statistics come from a time when we had single sex spaces and when people didn't overstep the boundaries. So the two most common sex crimes are exhibitionism, which is showing your private parts to someone who doesn't want to see them,

and voyeurism, which is looking at other people's naked bodies without consent. And so those statistics come from a time that those were difficult crimes to commit. But now, if a man can say he's a woman and enter a women-only space, he can commit voyeurism and exhibitionism with impunity. And he'll either not be registered as committing a crime at all, because of course, if you go into a women's locker room, it's allowable to get undressed, and you will see other people undressed. So it won't be recorded as a crime, or if it is, it'll be recorded as a crime by women. So the statistics are going to be messed up on top of everything else. And crime is often, many crimes are what's called crimes of opportunity. So it's not like there's a set amount of burglary out there or a set amount of voyeurism or exhibitionism. The amount of it depends on how easy it is to commit those crimes and, much, much easier for men to commit sex crimes against women and much, much, much harder for women even to report them, let alone to get justice. So we can expect a big uptick in sex crimes by men against women.

That's just the way it's going to play out. And now it's policy. It's law in state after state, we've seen this as it's cropped up at the YWCA's across America, places like California, places like Connecticut and gyms and so on. We've done stories on that where women go to complain and the the place, the gym, whatever it is, YWCA says, yes, that's our policy because that's the state law. We have to allow a man with a penis who says he's female to go into the locker room. There's nothing we can do about it. Yeah, and often they don't want to do anything about it. Often they also believe in this bizarre thing, you know, a womanly penis. Like there are no female penises. By definition, the penis is a male sex organ. Only male mammals have penises. No female mammal has ever had a penis. I can't believe I'm saying this, Megan. I didn't spend my time talking about penises before. I was polite. I was nice. And now I spend my days saying penis because I've been forced to. And then they say to

me that I'm obsessed. Well, I mean, if you stop getting your penis out in the women's locker room, I'll stop mentioning the fact that there are penises in the women's locker room. That's the way around. But so yes, women report these things and they're told it's the state law, but also they're told that they're bigots. I've seen journalists who claim to be women, who claim to be feminists, who claim to be progressive. I've seen them saying, why are you looking? As somebody saying, are you really okay with a man getting his penis out in the women's locker room in front of a girl, a little girl? And Laurie Penny, who's a journalist here in the UK who calls herself a feminist, she said, why is your child looking? It'd be a good

opportunity to teach them not to look. But that is what men have always said about voyeurism and exhibitionism. Like if a man gets his penis out in a public place and then the girl complains, he's like, well, why were you looking? You know, so, yeah, we're back to blaming women. We're back to blaming women for men's sex crimes. And the women who complain about these things are often told that they're going to be kicked out of their gym because they're bigots. They're transphobic bigots. Yep, that's exactly what.

And even the sorority members that I talked about, the Kappa Kappa Gamma girls, were scolded by their chapter leaders and their national sorority as transphobes. Any objection to allowing a man into the sorority means you're a bigot, you're a transphobe. I'm so glad that they're being defended. I know you point out, thank God for groups like ADF. That's how I feel. Alliance Defending Freedom, which took their case. They took the case of the Connecticut Runners. They've taken many of these cases trying to fight back against mandated pronouns and all that stuff. But, you know, it's

it's a very small sliver of groups that will take these cases at all. I want to stay on the women's spaces because we'll get to female athletes and all that. To me, that's so easy. That's an easy one. But female spaces is sort of the next ring of the circles going out. And fewer people are willing to stand up for our rights there. They start to feel more transphobic and they're wrong to. They need to embrace this fight. Otherwise, our daughters are going to pay the price. So there's there's the men who are potential, you know, criminals who are taking advantage of these open doors into our spaces who are not trans at all, but just want to get in there to

exhibit voyeurism or commit an assault, what have you. That's been a danger for a long, long time. We just made it a whole lot easier for all of them. Then you point out in the book, there is, it's not to say that all trans people at all, of course, are pedophiles, but this whole situation has created an open door for pedophiles too, in a way I know you've said is very dangerous. So my analogy in the book is with something that happened in the gay rights movement in the 1960s, 70s, 80s. And I have to be very careful talking about this because I don't want to be misrepresented. I'm very used to being misquoted and misrepresented by people who know very well

what I'm trying to say, but want to tar me with lies. So gay men are no more likely than other people to be paedophiles, but their movement was careless about giving shelter to paedophiles, which is a completely different thing. And that was for several reasons. And one of them was because a lot of people inside the gay liberation movement thought like my enemy's enemy is my friend. And on the other side, opposing them were the Catholic Church, the National Front, you know, conservative mothers, that sort of thing. So a mixed group, people I agree with and people I disagree with. But so they thought like everything those people disagree with is pro-me. And so they didn't push

the paedophiles out of their movement. And I mean, this is an almost forgotten history, but it is a matter of record that all the civil rights movements of the 1970s and 1980s that cared about freedom of speech and that cared about gay rights were just unbelievably willing to give headspace and room to paedophile movements. And I don't mean like paedophile fronts, I mean avowedly paedophile movements. People who are arguing for the age of consent to be dropped to four or to have none at all. People who said that it was educational for children to have sex with adults. These people managed to get onto platforms with the Labour Party, Nambla, which was the North America Man-Boy Love Association, which is still going, had a magazine that was published.

And you look back and you think, this is completely crazy, absolutely crazy. And yet, we are seeing something very similar again now, which is that we're seeing people thinking, I mean, the analogy is a little bit different. The analogy is that now the trans rights movement thinks again, my enemy's enemy is my friend. So anyone who's against Drag Queen Story Hour, anyone who says that there's a child safeguarding risk here, we're called Nazis, fascists, bigots, homophobes, transphobes, every phobe that you can imagine. And they just write us all off. I think they're going to make the same mistake. They're not thinking about how their movement can be co-opted and is being co-opted

because they want to you know stick it to the the bigots the fascists the far-right people who just care about child safeguarding you know it's very dangerous for them well well this is the problem if you know we're seeing the news of these men in women's spaces like locker rooms and we're seeing the news of let's say let's take that YWCA out in California where the 17-year-old older sister spoke out publicly and said, I've got a young little sister in the single digits. I don't want her exposed to this. So I heard it. You probably heard it. And so did the pedophiles. And she was right to speak out. Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting otherwise. But the problem is they know, too, that all they need to do is put on a damn dress and they will have access to these spaces where it's not just 52 year old birds like me in there.

It's young girls. Right. It's like and that's a real danger. And, you know, we're we're it's open season. Yeah. And men, men who abuse children children not all of whom are pedophiles because some of them abuse children who are teenagers you know they're past the um they're past puberty so they're physically grown up but they're still under the age of consent and so any man who abuses women and girls one of the first things he looks for is vulnerability so that's why they go for children who are in care or children whose families are in chaos or children who are depressed or lonely or whatever. But they will also take on any mantle that makes them seem trustworthy.

So that's why so many pedophiles made it into things like the scouts movement. It was not only because it gave them access to kids. It was because it made them look like good guys until we all learned how pedophiles do that, how they operate. And now we have a new sacred caste, which is trans women. And again, like you, I am not saying that every man who identifies as a woman, or even many men who identify as women are predators. What I'm saying is that if you identify, if you're a man and you identify as a trans woman, you now have a new sacred position that it's very hard to criticize you. As soon as someone criticizes you, the entire left will reflexively say that they're bigots and that they're doing it because they're transphobes, they're hateful, they're regressive,

they're Nazi adjacent, whatever, punch a turf, all of those things. So these men know where the sacred caste is now. And it's as a trans woman, and they can just walk into any space and say, oh, I'm really a woman. And then people can't say anything. It's terrifying. I mean, it's just so alarming as the mother of three young children, including a girl, that she's going to have to deal with this at some point, because while you and I are like-minded, the colleges are not, the medical associations are not, most of the K through 12 schools are not. They're, You know, we send our daughter to an all girls school. They're already having debates about whether

they should let in boys who say that they're girls or whether they should kick out girls who suddenly say they identify as boys. I mean, why are we having these debates? Right. If you're a boy, you cannot come in. That's it. A penis is a hard no. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, honestly, adult men who cut off their penises don't become women. So, you know, like if you have or have ever had a penis, you are not a woman. So I just have to say that. And, you know, it's actually worse.

A single sex space that makes an exception and allows in some male people is worse than a mixed sex space because it's been set up as if it's single sex. If we had a mixed sex sauna or change room or whatever it is we have, we think about how we can give everybody privacy in a mixed sex space. But a single sex space, you have much laxer rules. Women behave differently in single sex spaces. So you go in and you strip off and you talk whatever way you do, and you're not looking around. You're not thinking this is a space where there could be predators. And the predator loves that. Predators absolutely adore it when people let down their guard. I mean, it's absolutely incredible that we're doing this because any single sex school,

all its facilities will have been set up on the assumption that there are only children of one sex. They'll only have girls' toilets. They'll only have girls' locker rooms. They will only do sex ed that's suitable for all girls to be in together. They will not be thinking about the fact that there's boys sniggering in the back of the class when we're talking about girls' periods or whatever. And yet now suddenly, they're going to have boys and nobody's allowed to say it. It's the silencing is such a big part of why this is all so dangerous. You're not allowed to just say what's in front of your eyes. So I talked to people who were experts on child safeguarding, and in particular, a journalist who had been very involved in breaking the scandal of the paedophile rings that operated

in London children's homes in the 1990s. And she found it very difficult to get newspapers to take the story. And she said that, you know, it was just, you weren't allowed to say it. You weren't allowed to say what was in front of your eyes. And she called it grooming. She said, it is grooming. We're teaching children that they can't express natural concerns. So a girl who needs to be able to say, that's a boy. I'm not comfortable. These are my boundaries. I say, no, I do not give consent. That girl knows that if she says any of that, she's the one who gets kicked out. She's the one who gets ostracized as a bigot. And the boy who says he's a girl is this special, sacred, wonderful,

the most oppressed girls of all. The trans girls are the best girls. So we're actually grooming the whole children, not just in America, not just in the UK, right across the Anglosphere and beyond. We're grooming children, all children, but particularly girls, to ignore their own needs and boundaries and to stay silent when something makes them uncomfortable. So this makes them more, it makes a greater danger and they're more likely to be predated on totally apart from the trans issue because they've learned that they can't say that they feel uncomfortable. It's so dangerous, exactly the opposite of the instincts that we are born with and that we used to, and some of us still cultivate in our children. You know, listen to that sixth sense. That's your friend. Don't reject that in order to be considered nice or polite. That's your sense of fear. Like, listen to it, abide by it. And all of these trusted authorities are trying to snuff it right out of our children.

You know, I want to talk about the censorship and I'll get back to the dangers to the women in the single spaces, because I want to talk about autogynephiles, which you've done such great reporting on. But on the subject of censorship, you raised such good points about this, about how important the censorship going on from our authorities and but in particular in the journalism field, your field and mine has been to perpetuating these myths and the growth, the explosion of this trans ideology amongst our children, the social media and the censorship regime. And I want to talk

about that. But I also want to talk about the fact that this is one of the reasons why I think Elon Musk has been so, so, so important to expanding the national debate. I know he takes a beating by some on the left because he sends out strange tweets sometimes. And so who cares? This guy is the greatest free speech warrior that we have in the modern day world. Because of him, we can have these discussions on at least one of our social media platforms. And we couldn't. And I really think that his takeover of Twitter has helped change the polling on this, the American sentiment on this, people's awareness of the problems and the true facts. But can you speak to the social media and the role it plays in all of this? Completely. I mean, the first thing to say is that social media has spread this social contagion.

So what we are seeing is a social contagion, and there have been many social contagions throughout history, but they weren't able to be spread in real time between children without adults present. So they were spread by newspapers, by broadcast media, and then before that by the medical profession itself. But this was all very slow. Now they're spread, well, it was Tumblr until relatively recently, and now it's TikTok. And adults are mostly not on those platforms. So children are telling each other the most horrifying falsehoods, telling children that you must, like children talking to other children saying, you must explore your gender. If you think you're trans, you probably are. Puberty blockers are harmless. Any lie that you can think of to do with this, children are saying it without adults stepping in and saying,

that's not true. That's incorrect. So that's the first thing about social media is that it's spread this contagion. And then the second thing is that the people who work for the social media platforms are by and large, men, men who are in tech, and men who are on the West Coast of America. And these are people who do not think about children's needs and safeguarding. They're people who do not think about women's needs and women's specific vulnerabilities. And they've mostly been university educated and therefore in the last 10 or 20 years quite seriously indoctrinated. And so they have by and large said that their rules, which were meant to stop, for example, the N-word or, you know, anti-Semitism or pile on harassment of people, that they include under that what they call misgendering, which is referring to somebody's sex when that person

doesn't want their sex referred to. So I have, the entire time that I have been tweeting about all of this, I have had to be very, very careful on Twitter until very recently, not to say true things, true, obvious things like Rachel Levine is a man, because I would lose my Twitter account. And I still am a bit careful, but Elon Musk, thank Elon Musk so much for this. I mean, I'm not making a comment on how he runs his platform. I'm not qualified to do so. But the relief of being able to say trans women are men, which is a factually correct statement without losing my account, is very significant. It's very meaningful and it has moved the discourse considerably. Yeah. I mean, I have to say, I'd be remiss if I didn't point out,

YouTube has been supportive of this program in that they have not struck a single video of ours talking about this very charged issue. And I respect them for that. They took down me and Jordan. Yeah, they took down my interview with Jordan Peterson. And I think that was because, like, we don't know, they don't tell you why they did it, but email just says that you know you broke their hate speech policy or something we think it was because we referred to elliot slash ellen page as a woman but she is a woman yeah i mean we've done we've done that on this show and they they haven't they haven't struck our videos i don't i don't know i haven't spoken to youtube about this helen my feeling is I think YouTube understands that I am speaking out on behalf of women and that women have the right to be heard on this issue and not to have our speech policed or curtailed at every corner such that we lose the debate before we've actually had it. I think they understand that. I do think maybe they're more tolerant of this program because I'm a woman. You know, maybe Jordan gets hit harder because he's a man. Irrespective of who the guest is.

I don't know. Yeah, maybe. Maybe I'm tempting the bear right now. I don't know. My video was up for a year. My video was up for a year before they took it down. That one with Jordan. So I don't know.

I mean, I think it's probably true that he gets mass reported a lot more than you do. I mean, he's really a bugbear to a bunch of people who really hate him. I mean, I actually think he's fascinating. Like I disagree with loads of things, but you know, part of the free speech thing is that disagreement can be really useful. You know, my commitment to free speech, I was very committed to free speech before I became involved in the gender wars. I'm now as near as you can be to a free speech absolutist without thinking that you should be allowed to shout, you know, fire in a crowded theatre or whatever the examples are. And the reason is because I've seen us go so horrendously off the rails on this that I'm willing to have people say things that are wrong as long as I can say to them, this is why

you're wrong. You know, I test my ideas by talking to people who come from different points of view than mine. And that includes Jordan, he and I really do not share the same intellectual framework at all. But I learned more from talking to him than talking to people who are closer to me in viewpoint, because obviously, he was giving me things I'd never thought of before, because his viewpoint is different to mine. This is kind of obvious, you know, you expand your mind by talking to all sorts of different people. That I couldn't agree more. We're going through this as a, I don't know, as a culture, as a journalistic profession, I think on Ukraine, or with certainly within the Republican Party,

because you've got half of the Republican Party who's saying, you know, we need to pursue the Reagan policy in Ukraine, and we need to lead first. And it's, you know, America by example, not America last. And then a growing segment within the Republican Party that doesn't support the war and is saying, no, we need to get out. This is ridiculous. We don't have U.S. interests there. And I had many people ask me where I stand on it and where I stand is I want as many opinions as possible on this show so people can make up their own minds. I don't need to take a position on Ukraine. I just need to expose my audience to smart people arguing both sides. And I trust them to make up their minds. You know, this is not the place to come if you just want to hear one point point of view argued and argued well over and over and over. Right. It's like I would like the audience on

a sticky, wicked issue like that to have everything exposed to them. Now, I confess when it comes to this issue that you and I are discussing, I really just, it's fine to discuss the other side's arguments, but I think that they're so abhorrent. I think that this is a group that's serially abusing young children. I can't imagine over and over platforming their views. We've had trans people on the show. We've talked about these issues openly and honestly, but in no way could I give credence to the other side of the argument in the way that I am to you. Well, actually, I think it'd be brilliant if you had them on. And the reason I think that is because they do themselves so much more harm than I can possibly ever do. So if you had two hours in which Rachel Levine had to actually answer

straight questions or evade the answers, that'd be so much more powerful than anything else. And that is why Rachel would not come on the show. So that's why they say no debate because we call it, and myself and my friends in Sex Matter is the organisation I work for now, we call it Operation Let Them Speak. Because when you get, as happened here a couple of weeks ago at London Trans Pride, when you get, I mean, you may or may not have seen this, so I'll tell the story. So it's a trans woman called Sarah Jane Baker. So that's a man, a man who was called Alan Baker. He was sent to jail for kidnapping and torturing a young man. And then when he was in jail, he tried to kill his cellmate. He spent 30 years in jail, during which time he insisted that he was a woman and he actually cut off his own testicles and ate them in his cell. So this is a very seriously disturbed man. He has said that he has many serious psychiatric disorders. He has revealed that himself. He's now out and he is campaigning for trans women, men like him, to be held in the female estate, to be put in women's prisons.

So he was a speaker at London Trans Pride quite recently in the last week or two, and he stood on the stage and he said, fuck TERFs. If you see a TERF, punch her in the fucking face. And he got a massive cheer and this was all captured on video. I think that's more powerful than anything I can say. I can say this is a violent movement that doesn't care about women's rights. But when you look at Sarah Jane Baker, you can see it's a man. And there's a man saying punch women in the face. It's brilliant. Let them speak. You're right. I will confess to you, it would be hard for me to control my anger in such an, you know, certainly of that guy. But if somebody put, you know, maybe I need to settle

on this more until I can actually do it because you never want the audience to say yes to you. No, they're not. They're not. They're not. But I don't know. I mean, we've had trans people on the show. I know, you know, Caitlyn Jenner has been on the show and would come on again, I think. But Caitlyn Jenner is not like these other people. I know Caitlyn Jenner is controversial and not everybody's on board with Caitlyn and Caitlyn's approach to this whole thing. But, you know, I don't think I think there's a world of difference between Caitlyn Jenner and some of these activists that we're talking about who won't acknowledge that they're biological men. Right. That's that hasn't been Caitlyn's position. Yeah. Yeah. So I guess in that situation, what a journalist can do is what journalists always do when you have a story

that's worth telling, but you can't get comment is that you use whatever footage is available. So you show the footage of Sarah Jane Baker inciting a crowd to violence against women for demanding women's rights. I have been shocked by the dereliction of duty by journalists on this topic. I mean, you are a shining exception, obviously, and there are some others. But I have never seen a story treated with so little professionalism and so little balance. I don't know what happened. I mean, you know, this is an ideology that turns institutions upside down. It doesn't just knock them off course, it turns them around. So they start working against the exact thing that they were set up

to work for. So you see journalists saying they want censorship. Yeah, I mean, the most extraordinary example is all the gay rights organisations that are now actively campaigning to sterilise little gay boys. I mean, it's the most extraordinary thing. When you register this fact that people like Stonewall and the GLAAD and the HRC, what they are campaigning for is a medical protocol that puts disproportionately children who are going to grow up gay on a pathway to being unable to orgasm, to being unable to reproduce and to presenting themselves as simulacra of the opposite sex, but straight. I can think of nothing more homophobic or wicked to do to gay people than to chop up their bodies and turn

them into pretend straight people of the opposite sex. And yet the people who are campaigning for that are the gay rights organisations. And so journalism has been turned on its head as well, like journalists are now pro-censorship. They're pro-telling lies about this topic as long as it's for the greater good. You know, I'm ashamed to call myself a journalist some days when I look at what people are putting out under the name of journalism on this. This is like a horror movie.

It's truly a horror film that can't actually be real. And we didn't even mention the women's groups. You know, so many so-called feminists who are on the entirely wrong side of this, like more than the Megan Rapinoe, who was in the news just this week, the soccer player saying, you know, oh, where are all these alleged trans people who are taking women's opportunities in sport? Why don't you try reading the news? Try reading the news instead of just staying on your liberal social media platforms, because the facts are everywhere.

I know it's as if it's literally the opposite of what they should be doing. It's not it's not like they're just not doing feminism. It's they're doing anti-women's rights. So, I mean, I know because I talked also to the girls who had to compete with trans athletes in high school, and I quoted some of them in my book. And I know I talked to them and their mothers and so on. And their mothers thought, well, I know who I'll approach. I'll approach the National Organization for Women. I'll approach, I forget the name of it, but there's a law center that's specifically for women's rights.

Like they're specifically the organizations that should have supported women standing up against the intrusion of men into women's sports. And yet those organisations are now actively campaigning to destroy women's sports. And they're actively campaigning to centre men in women's spaces, to make it all about the men. I mean, in the sense when men's rights activists could mean, I'm standing up for men's rights and I'm all for that, I don't hate men. But we normally, when we say men's rights activists, we mean the horrible misogynistic, you know, kind of incel types. Like these women's organizations, yeah, they're like incels, honestly. So those feminists, they're as bad as incels. They say things like, if a man, you know,

if trans woman flashes her penis at you, look away. That is an incel argument. There's no such thing as her penis. I mean, but this all goes back to the opening line. And the woman I mentioned is Kelly Robinson, who is the head of human rights campaign. The one that we mentioned right off the top, who that used to be just pro gay and gay rights and now is giving out these equity scores to a corporate America. And they're bending the knee to this woman with the trans women are women. That's it. That's the tweet.

It's important that we not refer to that trans women as men because of the issues that we're discussing right back to if this is a debate between men and women about who gets to come into women's spaces and sports and so on. We win if this is a debate between women and women who who gets to come into women's spaces and sports and so on, we win. If this is a debate between women and women who just happen to have a different point of view, they're going to side with identity politics, with the wokesters, with the people who have aligned with the political left. But that's that's not what's happening here. That's not what the debate is. These are men trying to get into our spaces. These are men and in many cases,

people who live their entire lives as men, and about two minutes ago, declared that they were women, and then got a free pass into all of our sports, into our jobs, and are calling them the first woman ever, Rachel Levine, the first female admiral. No, she isn't. He isn't. He's a man. Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly, exactly. I mean, you lose it all when you say they're women, and you win it all when you say they're men, which is why they don't want us to say it. It's so clear when you say it in clear language and why we must, exactly. And then the language is also deliberately confusing. Like in enormes who haven't been paying much attention to this debate often wonder, it was the first question I was asked whenever I tried to explain what I was working on as a journalist. And then for my book, people would say when they

worked out that I wasn't going to report them for wrong think or call them a bigot and cut them off permanently, they would say, oh, can I just check with you? I have so many questions about this. Is a trans woman a woman who thinks she's a man or a man who thinks he's a woman? So straight away, people just don't know the most basic things about this because the terminology is so confusing. I always say to my audience, listen, if you want a quick, you know, a helpful hint to figure out what this language is, if they're saying, if you replace the word trans with fake, it's very helpful. Trans woman means fake woman. Or not. Yeah, not is another good one. Trans means not. Right, right. Or not. Exactly. Just a good quick mnemonic. Because even when I listen to

people say trans woman, trans woman, trans man, I'm like, who's it again? What does that mean? If you just replace it with fake or not, you're there. All right, stand by, Helen. We're going to squeeze in a quick break. The whole show, Helen Joyce is here today. So thrilled. Isn't she brilliant? She comes back after this quick break. So, Helen, I didn't get to the third danger to allowing men into women's spaces. We talked about sexual predators. We talked about the possibility of pedophiles. But there's also the Leah Thomas danger, and that is the danger of men who have autogynephilia. Now, we don't know for sure that Leah Thomas has autogynephilia, but The Daily Wire did an in-depth report on Leah Thomas's social media, which strongly suggests that Leah Thomas is an autogynephile. Your book spends a lot of time talking about Ray Blanchard, who is a sexologist who coined this terminology.

And it's an important term to understand because according to your book, looking at Blanchard's reporting, as many as 82% of straight trans people, like men who claim they're women, who are not gay, are in fact autogynephiles. So can you explain what that is? Sure. I'm going to say before I start, though, that I don't care what a man's motivation for coming into women's spaces is. He's not welcome. I don't care if he's very sincere. I don't care if he's not a pervert. I don't care if he's gay or straight.

It's a women's space. He is not welcome. As they say, good men keep out so that we can give everybody else out. I don't allow my husband, I don't allow my sons into women's spaces, and I expect them to respect women's boundaries. That said, there are different motivations for thinking that you are a member of the opposite sex, both for men and for women. And among men, the two common presentations are one, that they were very, very effeminate or feminine, or to use the pejorative term, sissy little boys. And the world, maybe their own family gave them the strong impression that this was not okay, and that a little boy who's like them has something wrong with him and is a girl, really. Now that kid, if he's supported and nobody lies to him about what's possible, will grow up to

understand that he's a gay man and hopefully be a happy, healthy, fully functioning gay man in adulthood. Unfortunately, we're transing those kids now, so we are taking away their futures from them. But the other group are straight men who have an unusual, whether you think of it as a sexual orientation or a sexual fetish will depend on how you think sex works. But what attracts them and excites them sexually is the idea of themselves as women. That's their fantasy. It's almost as if they're in love with the woman version of themselves. And that's where all these phrases like, I have a woman inside, I am really a woman inside, come from. And it's on a spectrum with erotic cross-dressing, which is a common male sexual interest. Lots of straight men do dress up as women and find it sexy. So some of these men

become more and more and more bought into this fantasy to the extent that as they get older, it becomes impossible or they think it's impossible to live without acting out that fantasy. And they don't want to just keep the fantasy woman to their bedroom or to their, you know, going away on cross-dressing weekends with other men or whatever it is, or sharing pictures on some cross-dressing website. And now, of course, they can go and say, I'm really a woman. And I actually think that a lot of them think they are really women. They've been fantasizing about this woman for so long that she feels very real to them. And now, of course, they're stunning and brave. They're the best women. But what is so unusual and destructive about this sexual desire and urge is that it requires everybody else to play along. That's part of the fantasy. And that's not true of sexual desires in general. I'm a heterosexual woman. I don't need other people to validate that as long as my own husband agrees with me that I'm a heterosexual woman and we stay together. That's it. The rest of the world doesn't have to play along with anything for that.

But if you're a man whose deepest sexual desire is that he is really a woman, then that man requires everybody, specifically women, to agree with him. And he doesn't just want to cross-dress. He wants to come into women-only spaces because he wants to be in the place where his womanhood is validated. So that doesn't just mean that he wants to use the women's toilets and the women's changing rooms and so on because that's convenient. It means he wants to use them for validation. He goes into them specifically. So all these men, they go and they join menopause support groups on Facebook. They join women-only swim sessions when actually there's a mixed sex session as well. They do all these things that only women can do because that's the thing that they get off on. And any woman who says, sorry, mate, you're a man,

not welcome. She's striking a blow at the heart of his own self-image and his erotic fantasy as well. And men and their sex drives, it's one of the forces that moves this world is what men want sexually. And these men are very, very motivated. I think of them as the beating nuclear reactor at the heart of this movement. They may not even be numerically the biggest part of this movement. And in fact, the foot soldiers of this movement are the young women who have grown up in queer theory at universities, and they're the worst for parroting that trans women are women. But without this hard core of men whose dearest and sole desire in life is to force everybody to pretend that they're women. This would not have got so far. This is so fascinating. This is going to

take more than this block to get through. But when you were speaking, it reminded me of an interview I did with Dr. Deborah So, who left the scientific field, you know her, and she's been writing about this for years, very bold, very brave. And she talked about she studied sexual fetishes and said, I remember she told me this before we even have video that one of the most common sexual fetishes, I think she said, was people have a desire to be eaten by an animal. And so I'm like, well, how do they act that out? Right. And so they can use cartoons or drawings, but that's for whatever reason is what gets them off the idea of some animal eating them.

Now, these people do not require you or me to say, yeah, you're going to get eaten by an animal. Yeah, I saw that elephant eat you right up. We don't have to participate in their sexual fetish. So it's relatively harmless. Like, OK, you do your thing. If you want to look at weird cartoons of the animals eating you, it's your business. This sexual fetish is taking over our world, our little girl's world, all of our spaces. And so to put it in legal terms, we have standing to object. And yet it's not recognized, not recognized by all these institutions that want to sound and look inclusive.

And the worst thing about this, and sort of to finish the, you know, why these people are the beating, the toxic beating nuclear reactor at the heart of this movement, is because it's so central to their self-image and so central to their sexual fantasy that they really are women. They don't want you to play along. They don't want you to be like, yeah, whatever. Okay. You know, you're basically like a drag queen. You know, I don't care if men wear women's clothes. And so they say that they were always that way, that really inside they're women. And that means they have to have been trans children. It means they have to have been trans children. So these men are the ones who want children put on sterilizing drugs to validate their sexuality. They're so dangerous.

And we're listening to them. We are seeding the debate because we've been shamed by the media, by, as you point out, the main leaders of the movement, the generals, the young women who have been indoctrinated in queer theory in the universities. We're allowing these people to shame us. It's bad enough for us, but it's a totally different matter when we're talking about our children. And that's what I mean, that that's what people need to remember. If you're too afraid to stand up for yourself, you must find a way to stand up to this. Otherwise, our children are not only going to be hurt by these people, some of them, but they're going to be indoctrinated in the thinking and the harm is only going to spread. Right. Helen Joyce stays with us. I want to pick it up on the

opposite end about the autogynephiles, because you went on in the book about some of the other ways in which they gratify themselves and what they need. And I found it fascinating. One of the examples was it would be enough for them. They get off on, for example, pushing a baby stroller, joining a knitting circle. My God, look around your knitting circle, ladies. Make sure you only have real women in there. Somebody could be enjoying it way more than you are, fellow knitters. We'll talk about that much, much more when we come back with Helen Joyce. And before we go, don't forget, The Megyn Kelly Show is live on Sirius XM Triumph Channel, 111 every weekday at New East. You can check out the full video show by subscribing to

our YouTube channel, youtube.com slash Megyn Kelly Audio Podcast, wherever you get your podcasts for free. We'll be right back. So picking back up the discussion on autogynephiles, you write in the book about a trans woman named Anne Lawrence who came across Ray Blanchard's work in 1994 and and dug deep on the subject of autogynephilia and concluded, as others have as well, that almost anything coded female or feminine can cause an intense erotic arousal that seems to simultaneously animate and discredit autogynephiles desire to have female bodies. So they get turned on by anything female or feminine. Her informants that spoke to her, the people speaking to her, recount erotic fantasies of pushing a baby buggy, joining a knitting circle, being called ma'am, having bubble gum blowing contests with girls, wearing clip on earrings, taking birth control pills, having a pap smear test and so on. And then you go on to say they often eroticize aspects of womanhood that most women dislike, such as menstruation, undergoing intimate medical examinations, experiencing sexism, or wearing uncomfortable clothes. Can I tell you something?

I'm going to confess something to you, Helen. Somebody I know, suddenly, I don't see this person often, but they're in my circle, is a man who transitioned, quote unquote, to female. And I saw this person. I was shocked to see that they were now going around as a woman trying to be. And this person went off to me about how he'd already been me too'd, how some man had already tried to harass him and grab his non-existent breasts. I'm thinking to myself, oh my God, this is such a load of crap. I mean, I was polite to this person, but all I could think was what on earth is going on here, right? What is, and when I read this, I was like, oh, I get it. It's part of it.

Absolutely. I mean, you know, we've both been young women and young women can be very naive. I think we are naive about what I tend to think of as men and their bullshit. Like you learn as you get older. And of course, there's women and their bullshit. I always have to say I'm not anti-men, but there is a specific category of men and their bullshit. One of those for this particular group of men, it's, I want to join absolutely everything that's for women. I too get menstrual cramps. You'd be amazed how many trans women insist that they get menstrual cramps and that it's caused by the hormones, the cross-sex hormones they're taking. You can't have menstrual cramps if you don't have a uterus because it's the uterus that's cramping. It's so obvious, but it turns them on. They're getting off on this. And there's young women

saying things like, you can pee next to me. They just want to pee. I'm fine with this. They're doing the whole be kind bullshit that women are indoctrinated into and that women get harassed if we don't go along with. But they're also very, very naive. Like as you get older, you know that more of what animates men than you thought ever when you were in your teens, it's sex. These men are getting off on it. We pulled a couple of examples of these trans activists in the news on TikTok and so on, that again, it's offensive when you hear it, but when you hear it, understanding you when you hear it understanding what i just read from your book it takes on a different significance it's it's exposing them i think as autogynephiles um here's one where there's a this guy fantasizing about all things that only women

can do after the alleged uterus transplant he wants. Listen to this, Sot3. I will let a doctor who has successfully transplanted a uterine complex before cut the organs out of a willing, healthy, transmasculine donor. Place them in my body. I will devote myself, heart and soul, to their aftercare. I will have as much gay sex as it takes with as many trans women as it takes and let the transphobes and homophobes scratch their heads wondering what to make of it. And I want to be the first trans woman to have an abortion. My God, Helen, this is what we're supposed to respect and be inclusive of and allow into our little girls bathrooms? I don't think so. I mean, I look at that and I think I want to say to every

woman who goes along with this, have you no self-respect? Do you not know what this man is doing? He's mocking you. He's using you as a masturbatory prop. And I'm not your horrible little fantasies and write them up for other people who have similar horrible little fantasies. But I have some self-respect and I say no to that. Yes, it's definitely a no. There's another person who was in the news this week online. I tweeted this out because just the sense of entitlement makes my blood boil. It really does make my spine stiffen and makes me resolve, as you say, let them speak, even more than I had to fight. Here's Sot 4. This is what I mean when the transphobia just comes out, the audacity and just the arrogance for cis women to believe that they own periods, that they own womanhood. You don't.

Okay, you don't own periods. You don't own womanhood. You experience both, and both are different for every person. But as a cis woman, it doesn't belong to you, so you can't gatekeep it. Like, hello? It's so bizarre. And honestly, only a man would want access to our period. Most women are like, it's a pain in the ass. It's something

that's necessary if we want to have children and if you actually are. But only a man would be fantasizing about it and thinking that we're running around thinking about our periods and making sure everybody knows we own them. Yes, we are the only ones who can have them, but we're not possessive over them. We're not dreaming about them all day. This is a man. Yeah, the experience of wishing that you were a woman or believing that you were meant to be a woman or thinking there's a woman inside, these are exclusively male experiences. I just am a woman. I don't identify as a woman. I don't feel like I am a woman. I just am one. And there's nothing I can do to be cast out of that group. I can't behave in a way that means that I'm no longer a woman. Anything I do is by definition a thing that a woman does.

And anything that man does is by definition a thing that a man does. And in his arrogance, his entitlement, and frankly, the weirdness of his sexual fantasies, these are extremely male things. Women don't sound like that. They don't talk like that. They don't claim ownership of things that aren't theirs to anything like the same extent that men do. In every word, he reveals himself as a man. Yeah, that's right. And I thought it was particularly interesting that you mentioned in here citing again, and Lawrence's research, having a pap smear. We've talked on the show before about this other trans person who said when he goes to his gynecologist and I took real issue

with it's like, all right, you don't have a gynecologist. You don't have a vagina. You have a hole at best that a surgeon created that does not require a gynecologist care. Get out of my gynecologist's office. It takes long enough to get in for those appointments. But I really don't want to sit in the gynecologist's waiting room or in, we've talked about this before, the mammogram waiting room, which is a very intimate spot for women where they have fears and concerns. Of course, you've got to sit there wondering, God, I know what they're checking for. And is it going to come out the way I want to do? I really don't want to sit next to a man who's getting off, who's got an erection under his robe because he's sitting there having a female experience next to me and my fellow women while we're worried about cancer or endometriosis or, you know, an unplanned pregnancy or any of the things that we worry about in these particular offices. And the two worst things I would say that people, you and I are probably, hopefully, I certainly am lucky enough not to have had this experience. But when you read

sissy porn, which is the porn that these men write for each other, where they talk about being forcibly turned into women, forcibly castrated and dressed as women and treated and demeaned as if they're women. And they talk about the fantasy of going to the gynecologist or whatever. There's also a fantasy of being a rape victim. And these men really do go to spaces that were meant only for women and for where women talk about the most intimate things. So I haven't had to use rape crisis services, which I'm very grateful for, but I have talked to a lot of women who have. And when you were in these spaces, often they will say that no men are allowed, not even as plumbers, not even as maintenance men. They will only have

female journalists visit because some of the women are so traumatized that even the sound of a male voice can trigger their trauma. So they have these women-only spaces where women could talk about all the experiences that brought them to the place where they were raped. Because many women who were raped have had long histories of victimization. They were in care, or they were abused as children, or they ended up in a very toxic relationship with a man who pimped them out, that sort of thing. And they have women-only spaces to talk about these things. And the fact, the tragic fact, is that some of these men who get off on the idea of being women get off on the idea of being raped and get off on the idea of sitting in on these sessions. So it's not just that we're allowing

men into these spaces, we're allowing men who have an erotic fixation on being in these spaces to be in them. We are re-traumatising rape victims by doing this. And the second thing I was going to say is there are lots of trans people who say there is no such thing as autogynephilia. They'll say that it was just invented. Well, Ray Blanchard is an excellent sexologist and he did very good research. Anyone who wants can read it. But all you have to do, I don't advise this if you've got a sensitive stomach at all, but I did do it because I had to for my book, is go on Amazon and look up sissy porn. And you will find books that are even free. They're self-authored books. Men are writing these for the fun of it. They're not writing it to make money. And just see what these men are writing about and what they're fantasizing about.

It is not something that any woman, any woman is fantasizing about or wants to experience it's an exclusively male phenomenon i've said it before i'll say it again find your voices find your voices it's a it's an existential crisis at this point for women for women for womanhood um we've got to talk about children let Let's spend time on that. The book does a great job of exposing what's happening. The capture of the medical industry, the American Academy of Pediatrics. Shame on them. Shame on them. The American Medical Association. Shame on them. The money these doctors are making off of these procedures, yes, at the adult level, but also at the adolescent

level. And the misinformation that is getting spewed by groups like the endocrinologists of America to the point where now endocrinologists in other countries and doctors in other countries are mocking us, are openly penning pieces in The Wall Street Journal and elsewhere saying, what's wrong with America? We have realized you don't trans kids. You don't medicalize them with puberty blockers and cross gender hormones. You certainly don't perform surgeries on them. Why is America the most radical of all, Helen? Such a good question, isn't it? I mean, one answer is just that you were patient zero. This is where it started. So, you know, the idea

of transitioning people was something that came about in 1920s Germany. But then, of course, there was the Second World War and the clinic where the very first trans patients or the first patients were given what you might think of as early, rather brutal trans surgery was actually burned down by the Nazis because it was run by a gay Jewish man. But anyway, one of the guys who was connected to that movement, Harry Benjamin, went to America after the Second World War and he started out there. And for some decades, he was kind of a lone voice talking about how gender is socially constructed and that everybody could be turned into a boy or a girl just by what they were brought up in the first two years.

And he was the person who commissioned the first sex change surgeries. Again, nobody can change sex. That was just a shorthand. And so it all grew up in America. And then it was American campuses as well that developed queer theory in the 1990s, according to which, I mean, queer theory is just too tedious to spend any time on. But basically, it's like your rule of thumb about trans. If you just say not or fake instead of trans, you get the right answer. Queer theory is like everything it says. It says everything bad is good. Black is white, up is down, back is front, inside is out. So queer theory just says that nothing is real and that everything is socially constructed and it's all just words. And it looks smart because it's so

all counterintuitive. And that really came out of American campuses in the 1990s and just words. And it looks smart because it's so all counterintuitive. And that really came out of American campuses in the 1990s and 2000s. And the way that I think of it is these two strands, this medical transition and this queer theory, everything is words, everything is discourse. They joined and they had a horrible little love child, which in the 2010s exploded in places like Tumblr and created a social contagion the like of which nobody has ever seen before. And then the last thing I would say about America is because of your political polarisation, most Americans take all their political opinions as a package. They either think that everything Republicans do and say

is evil and everything Democrats do and say is right, or they think vice versa. And so, you know, unfortunately, the Democratic Party has fallen to this. Now, again, it was lobbied, you know, it's in bed with Big Pharma, it's in bed with the lawyers unions and groups. It's the group that was, it's the party that was very easy to lobby by people like the ACLU and HRC, but also the people who had religious and sort of conservative traditionalist objections to all of this were in the Republican Party. So a lot of basically well-meaning Democrats think, you know, oh, well, the Republicans are against childhood transition, so I must be for it. The Republicans think trans women aren't women, so I think they are. And other countries aren't as polarised as you are. We're able to think a bit more critically, not much more critically, a bit.

Right. We mentioned Rachel Levine earlier, a man who lived his whole life as a man and then in his 50s declared that he was a woman. And now he's calling himself the first female admiral to ever work for HHS, all of which is a lie. Still a man. He's just dressing as a woman now. And he gave an extraordinary interview to ABC just this past weekend, I think it was in this past week, and had the following assertions. He did not trans as a child. He married a woman, he had children. He earlier is on record as saying he's glad that he waited because he wouldn't have had his children if he had gone trans before he did. But now a bit of change in his messaging. He'd love for your kids or mine to stop puberty and cross sex with all

these procedures. Listen to Rachel Levine's that one. The treatment options for gender affirming care for transgender youth really are evidence based. What would you say to folks who think that they're being reasonable by saying, why can't children just wait till they're 18? Adolescence is hard and puberty is hard. What if you're going through the wrong puberty? What if you inside feel that you are female, but now you're going through a male puberty? The argument is, well, they're too young to know. I want to make it clear that for pre-pubertal children, there are no medical procedures done. The standard of care allows them to explore that with therapy. When you speak out against these bills, what do you cite as the harm?

Well, gender affirming care is medical care. Gender affirming care is mental health care. Gender affirming care is literally suicide prevention care. We'll get to the suicide claim, but take on, Helen, that pre-pubital children are not given any medical procedures or care. That's not true. I really hate everything about that interview. I think every single sentence that Rachel Levine said is false. And the fact that he is asking for children or saying that children should be given something that he did not have himself, why is he doing that? What about his own identity requires him to use children as child sacrifices like this? I mean, you know, I was brought up Catholic. I'm no longer a believer, but I still, I turn to the words of the Bible when I see things like that. And I say, better that you tie a millstone around

your neck and cast yourself into the sea than that you harm children like this. It's disgusting, absolutely disgusting to be harming children in order to prop up and validate adult identities. And that's what I am seeing there. Right, rant over and I'll answer your actual question. So what they do is they use a bunch of half-truths and outright deceptions and assertions without any evidence, and they stitch it together to say, okay, first, nobody's doing irreversible things to prepubescent children. And what they're ignoring is what we know about childhood development, which is that if you tell a little boy who ardently wishes that he was really a girl, that yes, he can be a girl, and you're going to call him a girl's name,

tell everybody that he's a girl, dress him in girl's clothes, you're going to get away with it because you can turn little boys into something that looks like little girls because prepubescent children, it's easy to present them as a member of the opposite sex. That kid gets what he wants. He gets to play with the toys that he wanted, that you said to him weren't suitable for boys. Like why the hell didn't you just say, it's fine, you can play with Barbie. You're a boy, but you can play with Barbie. Anyway, then puberty approaches. What's that child going to do? Going to go like, all right, fine. I'm going to grow hair on my chest and my voice is going to break and I'm going to shoot up and I'm just going to look like a boy. No, you've been pretending for the past five years that he's really a girl. You've put him on a path

that's very, very hard to get off, even if technically you haven't done something irreversible. Then the next lie they say is that puberty blockers are reversible, that they're just a pause button, that they just give you time to think. What they actually do, we know this now, is they lock in the social transition. Children who go on puberty blockers, almost all, like 98% go on to cross-sex hormones. So they are absolutely not a pause button and they're probably bad for you in themselves. I mean, you've got children, I've got children. Puberty is a really special time. So much changes in a child in puberty. It's actually, you know, it's almost awe-inspiring. I only have boys and watching them go through that, what looks like that fast forward video

of the tree shooting up, you know, it's amazing. I look at it and I think, wow, you know, human biology is incredible. Look what's happened. A child is turning into a man. And these wicked, wicked people want to interfere with that process. It harms your brain. It harms all sorts of things. We probably don't know all the ways that it harms you, but it puts you on a path to cross-sex hormones. And the last thing that I'm going to say about this is that if you stop a child's puberty right at the beginning of it, that's stopping the child before the child goes through any pubertal development. So the little boy's penis is tiny. He's not getting erections. He's not getting wet

dreams. The girl hasn't become fully orgasmic if it's a girl. And you put them on this puberty blocker and then they go straight on to cross-sex hormones. You're not just creating somebody who might look like a member of the opposite sex when they've got no clothes on. You're creating somebody who is kind of asexual, somebody who is not going to have normal orgasms, someone who is not just infertile, but sterile. You're creating a human being who can never be a normal adult. And when that little boy, his penis will never become a full size penis if you go down this path. I mean, it is a human rights abuse of the sort that we look back on lobotomies and we say, how did that ever happen? We're doing like sex lobotomies and we're

doing them on children. And we're doing them probably to tens of thousands of children, invisibly in clinics all over America and all over the English speaking world. And it is the medical scandal of the 21st century and the human rights abuse of the developed world of the 21st century. Yes, this is why I mean, honestly, I'm becoming a single issue voter. I will never vote for somebody who supports this. This is a black and white issue. There is no support of this or you're out. I will say even on the Republican side, we've seen too much wavering. Tucker Carlson sat in Iowa with the GOP field all but Trump and had an extraordinary exchange with the former governor of Arkansas,

Asa Hutchinson, Arkansas. That is not Connecticut. That's not New York. That's not California. And he rejected a bill that would have banned these medical procedures for minors. He tried to get out of the accountability for that, for trying to draw a distinction between surgical procedures and these cross-gender hormones, which, as you just point out, no scalpel is required to make these kids infertile for life, make them unable to achieve sexual climax, to render them asexual. Real question about whether they could even have sex after some of these things. So he wants to draw the distinction. But listen to how it went when Tucker asked him about his rejection of that bill. If there would have been a bill that said you should not ever have transgender surgery as a minor, I would sign that admit because no parent should be able to consent to that permanent change.

But this bill did go too far. It was unconstitutional. It interfered with parents. And so I sided with parents on that bill in managing the most sensitive issue that a parent can face. And I believe in a limited role of government. And so, you know, if I don't think that California ought to be able to tell parents, you need to have gender affirming care for the children. The government should not do that. And in the same way, let's keep the government out of it unless it's that extreme case. And let's let parents guide the children. I stand with parents. What do you make of that, Helen? So I don't see an evil speech there. I see a misinformed speech. You know, he's fallen for the misrepresentations of the

trans lobby. He thinks that these things are reversible, that they're pause buttons, that nobody is doing anything that cannot be undone. And this is almost sweet of him. He thinks that parents are always standing up for their children's best interests in this. Now, most parents are, but some aren't. There are parents who are really enjoying the whole drama and the whole, I'm so great, I'm so progressive of having a trans child. It's like a sort of a status symbol in some groups. It's boring to have a gay child now, but it's really exciting to have a trans child. And I'm sorry to say that if we said that it was parents' rights to allow parents to make their children blind or to cut off their

legs or inject something in their spine that paralysed them, we wouldn't just say parents' rights. He doesn't understand what he's saying here. He's saying that parents can irreversibly harm their children up to and including the point of sterilizing them. But he doesn't know that. So people like that, just we have to inform them. We have to get the word out. We have to do better journalism. sort of touting their trans children from Charlize Theron to Marsha Gay Harden, who says all three of her kids are, quote, queer. Megan Fox was just in the news for similar statements about her children. They have no idea what they're actually doing to their kids and the example that they're pushing on other people. It's extremely dangerous. What you're basically saying if you submit to this stuff is I sterilized my child. I rendered my child unable to ever achieve sexual climax. I rendered them asexual. I mean, how is that something you want to run to the news and unless they don't know either, Helen, I mean, unless they don't know either, because

when the endocrinologists and the American Society of Pediatrics or whatever academy and the American Medical Association are all saying it's good, it's actually the standard of care. It's the first line standard of care. You can understand the confusion. You absolutely can. And I should say that most parents who have children who identify as trans, I don't put in this category of, you know, enjoying the drama of it. I think it's a subgroup. Most parents who go along with this do find it deeply distressing and deeply counterintuitive because they do know in their hearts what they had as a baby. Like a woman who gives birth to a boy, you've grown that baby boy inside you for nine months or a baby girl. You know what your child is. You know it in your blood. It's your flesh and blood.

And then people are telling you that it's nothing to say that they must be a member of the opposite sex and that you have to just get with the program. So the thing that they do it, the reason they do it above all is that they're told that if they don't, their child might kill themselves. And that is every parent's worst nightmare. This movement engages in coercive control and emotional blackmail. It tells parents that unless they go along with things that in their heart of hearts, they know to be wrong, that they are harming their children. This movement is like the boyfriend who says, if you leave me, I'll kill myself and it'll be your fault. And they suggest selling suicide to vulnerable children too. One thing we know about suicide

is that it's emotionally and it's socially contagious. There's guidelines for journalists in every country about how you report on suicide. You don't give details, you don't attribute it to anyone calls, you don't present the suicidal person or the person who committed suicide as being brave and amazing for having done that. And that's because we know that people who are distressed and in emotional turmoil and mental health difficulties, they read these things and then they go and kill themselves using the same mechanisms, or they think that they'll get some sort of admiration for doing it. You know, it's very suggestible. And yet a couple of years ago, Anthony Bourd risk, the suicidality of trans people and kids. Like, is it true that, as they say, something like 48 percent of them will attempt suicide if they don't get the, quote, gender affirming care?

Absolutely not. So the best study that we have looks at the children who are on the waiting list for the NHS clinic in London. And because the waiting list is quite long. So these children are sort of the same, basically, as the children who are on the waiting list for the NHS clinic in London, because the waiting list is quite long. So these children are sort of the same, basically, as the children who are getting the care. And they are more likely to self-harm and, sadly, slightly more likely to commit suicide. But it's still extremely rare for a child to kill themselves. And the figure is not at all surprising, because these are kids who also have a lot of other mental health difficulties. There's outsized numbers of them who are depressed, anxious, self-harming, eating disorders, autistic spectrum disorders, and so on. So those comorbidities, as doctors call it, those co-occurring conditions, that totally explains why you would expect to sadly see a

slightly higher risk of suicide among these kids. And the second thing to say is there's no evidence whatsoever that allowing them to transition helps. They still have the mental health conditions, risk of suicide among these kids. And the second thing to say is there's no evidence whatsoever that allowing them to transition helps. They still have the mental health conditions. They're still autistic. They're still self-harming. They're still depressed. So the treatment doesn't work. Yeah, this brings me to the July 14th of this year, Wall Street Journal opinion by several experts, experienced professionals, as they call themselves, involved in direct care for the rapidly growing numbers of gender diverse youth from all over. They these clinicians from Finland, the UK, Sweden, Norway, Belgium, France,

Switzerland, South Africa and even the United States. Nine countries represented wrote this opinion piece in The Wall Street Journal a few days ago and said it was in response to the president of the Endocrine Society backing this alleged gender affirming care. All of it is a misnomer. And they take issue with the suggestion that this is anything of the sort. They say he claimed that this gender affirming care of the kind we've been discussing improves the well-being of transgender and gender diverse people and reduces the risk of suicide. They write, this claim is not supported by the best available evidence. Every systematic review of evidence to date, including one published in the Journal of the Endocrine Society, has found the

existence for mental health benefits of hormonal interventions for minors to be of low or very low certainty. By contrast, the risks are significant and include sterility, lifelong dependence on medication, and the anguish of regret. For this reason, more and more European countries and international professional organizations now recommend psychotherapy rather than hormones and surgeries as the first line of treatment. They go on to say that this guy, Dr. Ham, who runs the Endocrine Society in America, his claim that gender transition reduces suicide is contradicted by every systematic review, including the one published by the Endocrine Society, which states we could not draw any conclusions about death by suicide. They go on to say there is no reliable evidence to suggest that hormonal transition is an effective suicide

prevention measure. I mean, this is so encouraging. Is it not to see this in the Wall Street Journal? People from all those countries, these are, you know, these are liberal countries. These are it's not like I don't know, not like Russia. It's not like Vladimir Putin. You've got the UK, you've got Sweden, Norway, France, Switzerland, all these joining together to say, what are we doing? I mean, it's so hard to explain, isn't it? Except it's like a madness of crowds thing. Sometimes things go so badly wrong that people can't reverse. I mean, the moment when somebody who has gone along with what I've said is the worst medical

scandal of the 21st century, the moment they realise that they might have been wrong is the moment that they realise that they have been complicit in a horrific human rights abuse against children. And people are very motivated never to accept that. So I think some of the people who are now most actively speaking in favour of gender affirming, a so-called care for minors, are people who have step by step got themselves to a position that they would never have thought was the right position when they started. But now there's no way back for them, because the way back involves saying, we, the endocrine society, recommended something that we now accept as a medical and human rights scandal. So they're not going to. They're going to defend themselves to the last possible breath and the

last drop of blood rather than accept how culpable they are. And I heard you on Peter Boghossian's talking about how a lot of the people who are pushing this, whether it's inside these medical societies, because the American Medical Association is just as bad. The American Academy of Pediatrics, the worst. Again, the Endocrine Society. I mean, these are terrible. They're all on the wrong side. But you were saying if you it doesn't take a lot of digging to find the people at the top of these and on similar organizations have a trans kid or have they they have done this to their own child. This is the way I think a lot of people, and this is nothing against folks who are pro-choice, but a lot of people who are the biggest pushers of abortion had abortions. And you've seen something similar in this movement.

I think there's a very natural human instinct to justify decisions that you've made that can't be reversed. And it's that thing of saying, such and such happened and it was the best thing that could have happened. Sometimes it's the only way that you can make sense of your life. My husband left me and I now realise that that was the best thing that could ever have happened. We couldn't live if we didn't do this. But with the child thing, it's so high stakes. You've been told that the child will commit suicide. You did your due diligence. You went and you looked at what all the bodies that you thought were trustworthy, charities with good names, governments, medical associations, they all told you one thing.

Maybe you thought this doesn't sound right, but you don't want your child to kill themselves. You made a decision. It's now not reversible. And so you become radicalized. And it's not even at the top of organizations. It doesn't have to be at the top. Often it's that there's somebody in the organization and nobody can now speak truth in the whole organization. fine. And those people are the ones who pop up all the damn time to claim that women like me are dinosaurs, that we're the wrong side of history, that trans rights are human rights, they're going to dedicate themselves to these things forever. And you're like, why are you so sure? There's nothing in your history that suggests to me that this is what you're going to be like. This person might be quite conservative, have been working in some totally unrelated field.

And then you find out why. I guess there's a still small voice in the middle of the night that says, what if you were wrong? And that's the thing you never want to listen to. Between that and I wanted to read this, I skipped past the end of our autogonophile discussion without reading this. And I wanted to. So you've got those people trying to justify their own life choices, their own decisions that are irreversible with respect to their children. And instead of owning it and trying to save everybody else's child, they want our kids to go down with them. And then you've got this other group of autogynephiles, you know, the men who are

getting off undressing like women or joining women's circles and you, and you write the following. This is so interesting to me. And again, eye opening away. I was like, OK, this makes sense because we've talked many times in the show about why the trans activists are the worst activists, the worst. I mean, they're worse than BLM. They're worse than anybody in terms of the way you must say it this way and you must go along with everything that they believe. And you are still on the subject of Ray Blanchard. You say his observations of extremist trans activism in recent years have led him to believe that the leaders are mostly autogonophiles. Their anger results from envy of women and resentment at not being accepted by women as one of them. Quote, they direct their

ire at women because it is women who frustrate their desires. Men are largely irrelevant. This this is exactly right. They are such an angry group. And then you realize it's because, as you pointed out earlier, they need you and me to engage in their fantasy. So you've got them. Then you've got these activists who made different life choices, who need to force them on us. And that are all the reasons, again, it's the theme of the show, why we must push past trans women are women. That's the tweet. We must push past.

Yeah, exactly. And, you know, then there's a whole, there's the whole kind of people who aren't so invested in it, but it's a very cheap virtue signal. And then there's another group that we haven't mentioned, but I think it's quite a large group. And that's people who are basically bullied and terrorized by their own children having adopted this ideology. So there's obviously a strong age difference. Like older people are the least likely to think that people can change sex. I mean, the bit of life wisdom maybe, but anyway, for whatever reason, this is also just a very recent ideology. So it's young people and people who've been to university.

So I know loads of people and they tell me about it whenever they see me on the street or whenever I meet them at something, they say to me, I cannot tell my children in particular, I cannot tell my daughters where I stand on this because my daughters will cut me off and they will never speak to me again. And so, you know, when you go to events and conferences in this field, there will often be people who aren't willing to be photographed and they give out stickers that say no photographs. And often the reason is I don't want my child to see me here. And it's not necessarily that it's a trans child.

It's a child who believes that this is the latest good cause, that you have to be pro-gay rights, pro-BLM, pro-trans women are women, anti-Trump, a whole bundle of things. And they won't talk to their parents and they tell their parents that they will never talk to their parents again unless their parents agree with them on this. And some of those parents just go along with it. They're like, all right, then fine. It doesn't seem right to me maybe, but my daughter tells me it's right. So, yeah, it's terrifying. That's terrifying.

And those parents, you know, many of them, not all, but many of them may have missed the warning signs, the three hours a day on Tumblr or Reddit or YouTube where they're getting drawn into this ideology, sucked into this very unhealthy messaging, these lies and the indoctrinations already happened. It is tough to fightctrinations already happened. It's, it is tough to fight once it's already happened. Um, I'll say this, you write the following in chapter 12, which I completely agree with. And it's, I mentioned Megan Rapinoe because she's out there saying it's fine. We're, you know, they should compete against us. Uh, you write this, not about her, but in general, female athletes who support trans inclusion get to appear generous

and inclusive, even as they position themselves as superior to women who acknowledge that they do require a separate sex class to be competitive. I was trying to explain this to Joe Paggs. He was on the show the other day. He's like, why does Megan Rapinoe say this? Why do these women do it? And I said, because they want to appear morally superior. It's a psychic income for them. They get to virtue signal to their base. That's what they get out of it, even if it puts our children in danger. All right, stand by, because when we come back, I would like to get into the sports situation, which is getting better. It is getting better by the day. More with Helen Joyce on the opposite side of this break. One other point on the

children, which is very important to make, you point out in the book that the most recent and best study published in March of 2021 followed 139 boys seen at a Toronto clinic between 1975 and 2009. That's a long-term study of 139 children, around two-thirds of whom satisfied the clinical criteria for a diagnosis of gender dysphoria. It found more than 90% of them later ceased to feel dysphoric and became reconciled with their biological sex. That means leave them alone. That's the answer. Leave them alone and they will grow out of it. Yeah, exactly. And don't tell them that there are things that only boys can do and only girls can do. Tell them that anyone can be anything you do you. If they want to be a boy

who plays with Barbie or a girl who plays rugby, go for it. You be your own special little self and you'll be supported. and don't teach them that their, you know, un-stereotypical desires actually make them members of the opposite sex. It's super regressive to do that. It confuses kids and it's sexist nonsense. Right, exactly. So what, I mean, I know you spent a lot of time in the book on this being a social contagion. Abigail Schreier is written about Lisa Lippman. You quote her, too. She's both of whom have been on the show.

Love them. But for girls in particular, girls never suffered from this historically. And now they're overwhelmingly the dominant force. Girls thinking that they're boys. Yeah. Given that's a social contagion. You got a daughter, let's say, and, you know, middle school or high school. And it turns out that 10 people in her class are suddenly trans, including three of her closest friends.

What do you do? I mean, ideally, you don't get into that situation in the first place. I mean, parents who are alert to this movement will look at the possibilities for their child's school. And if you look around the school and you see that it's trans flags everywhere and that teachers are wearing pronoun badges, ask around in your community and find out are there lots of children who are identifying as non-binary or whatever. Don't send your child there. Because they go through this natural period in teenage years when they think that everything their parents say to them is wrong and they may want to just oppose you for the sake of it. But also they think that you're not cool and you're backward and they listen to their own friendship groups. So it's really, really hard to counter the influence of what happens in school.

And I would also look at what the school is teaching and what it's got in its library and what it models to the kids. Because a lot of schools are, you know, they're transitioning kids behind their parents' backs and They're teaching children lessons in which they explicitly tell the children that biological sex is a construct, that what makes you a boy or a girl is your gender identity, you know your gender identity, and so on. They just teach them a mixture of unscientific nonsense. They're passing around the social contagion now, the schools, in a lot of states. I don't know how you can inoculate your child against being taught lies and being socially indoctrinated by school. You can't put your

child in that environment. It's too dangerous. But if it's happened, I mean, it's really difficult to deprogram someone who has been programmed into a cult. I mean, all I can say is don't end up there. Don't let your child be indoctrinated into a cult. That's, all I can say is don't end up there. Don't let your child be indoctrinated into a cult. That's exactly right. And honestly, this is one of the reasons why we tell our kids, if somebody asks you to say your pronouns, just say, I'm not comfortable talking like that. Just say that. Take it up with my mom if you don't like my answer. That'd be another follow-up. But I'm not letting them even start getting my kids talking about things like that. You know, it's a gateway. It's a gateway.

It is. All the pronouns are. All right. So on the sports front, it's been a calamity for female athletes. But I mean, talk about shoots of grass, right there. We've had some positive developments like the World Cycling Organization, UCI, just said no more. We had had two of the top cyclists in the country on the show recently. They did not feel hopeful that money they reversed themselves they they said this international cycling organization said no more men

in women's sports if you want to compete and you're a trans woman you can compete in the open category we've seen similar results in the world running organization at least in i don't know world qualifying competitions in certain competitions in any event we're making progress but can you spend some time on the men running in women's, competing in women's sports? Yeah, sure. So, I mean, I didn't know until I wrote my book how big sex differences are in all the things that matter in sport. I mean, obviously I knew they were there. I'm actually from a very sporting family, although I'm not sporting myself. I'm one of nine kids and of the other eight, seven of them have played cricket,

and five of them have played for Ireland. And that's two girls and three boys, among them the girl who was the captain of the Irish women's team for many years, who's probably the best Irish female cricketer that we've ever had. So I've always seen sex differences in sport. And also, by the way, the very sexist differences in which men's sport is lauded and women's sport is underfunded. But when I looked into it in the book, the differences in strength men's sport is lauded and women's sport is underfunded. But when I looked into it in the book, the differences in strength, speed, stamina, all those things, they're really much bigger under the hood than you'd realise if you've never been beaten up by a man or you've never tried to arm wrestle with a 14-year-old boy or any of those things. I mean, actually, quite mediocre men are better than the very best women.

Like in most sports, an under 18 boy has, and often many times, thousands of times in a year, has beaten the world record in that sport for a woman. So you just can't have women and men competing in the same competitions because all professional athletes would be men. There would just be no women's sport. So sports have always done sex testing, which is just a simple swab, a cheek swab. You just input a cotton bud in the woman's mouth. You check DNA. Yes, that's a woman. She has that card for the rest of her life. It's that simple.

But in the 1990s, they fell for the idea that people can transition, men can change sex, and that if a man has had his testicles removed and therefore has no testosterone circulating anymore, that he should be allowed into women's sport. Now, actually, most of the advantage is baked in during puberty. So that was always nonsense. But anyway, it was allowed. And the thing is, it didn't really become an issue because most of the men who'd gone through that surgery were in their 40s. So they weren't really very competitive. And then step by step, as has happened so much in this movement, you give them an inch, which you should never have done, but you give them an inch and they take a mile. So they said, okay, if you've had sex change surgery, you can compete as a woman. And then they got rid of that condition for sex change surgery. They just said, lower your testosterone

levels. But now that's something that someone can do in their teens or in their twenties. And anyway, it's very hard to monitor. And some sports have even just said, don't bother with lowering your testosterone levels. Some women have high testosterone. And you end up with just a mad situation. And I think the reason there's been pushback in sport before anything else is because it's so visual. It's not like in prisons, which I actually think is the very worst place that this happens, allowing men who are rapists and murderers and torturers into women's prisons. But that's done behind closed doors. Nobody sees it. Whereas sport is on the podium. And the other thing about sport is it activates our fair play sort of module. You look at this enormous man, and often it's like a man in his

40s and a bit out of shape. And he's standing there lording himself over the two women on either side on the podium. And he looks like an idiot. He looks ridiculous. You know, I laugh when I see these men, even though it's not funny. It's just a sort of an automatic reaction. And so that's why it's happening in sport before anywhere else, because it destroys the whole thing. No one will even watch it. They won't be able to get advertisers. They won't be able to get anyone watching their competitions. The latest polling reports, NBC News, shows that 69 percent of people say trans athletes should only be allowed to compete on the sports teams that correspond with the sex that they were born with. Sixty nine. So if you think you're in the minority, you're not. If you want to speak out about this issue, about 70 percent of Americans do not think men should be competing in women's sports, no matter what their gender confusion is. There are so many great nuggets in Helen's book. You've just got to read it to get the full appreciation of it. I'm so grateful to talk to you. Would you please come back? We can continue this discussion. There's so many more things that we could talk into. Of course, I'd absolutely love to. I've really, really enjoyed this conversation.

And I think, you know, it's great work what you're doing. I think you'd already proved that you were a very brave journalist. But now, you know, like you've doubled down and tripled down on that. And I think women and children everywhere can thank you for that. Right back at you, Helen. All the best. To be continued. Oh, amazing. Okay, before we go, quick reminder, tomorrow we have both of the IRS whistleblowers speaking out on Joe Biden and Hunter Biden, Gary Shapley, and we just learned that it's Joseph Ziegler. They will be on with me together for the very first time. Don't miss it. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show. No BS, no agenda, and no fear.