The Megyn Kelly Show - Truth About Hegseth Smears and Leak Firings, and Shocking Details of Ellen Greenberg Case, with Steve Bannon and Nancy Grace | Ep. 1054

Episode Date: April 22, 2025

Megyn Kelly begins the show by addressing the breaking news about the effort to push Pete Hegseth out as Defense Secretary, what's really behind his firing of his top staffers after a leak investigation, one of those fired now speaking out on Tucker Carlson's show and what he's implying about Hegseth, and more. Then Steve Bannon, host of Bannon's War Room, joins to discuss the intra-MAGA fight at the center of the Hegseth Pentagon tension, why the leakers may have wanted to get the information out publicly, the various "America First" factions in the movement today,  the Democrats’ strategy behind embracing Kilmar Abrego Garcia, how it’s really all about delaying Trump and his ability to take more aggressive actions, the media spin and manipulation about his real story, AOC's potential to become a major national player, and more. Then Nancy Grace, author of "What Happened to Ellen?" joins to discuss the shocking and unsolved story of Ellen Greenberg, how she was stabbed 20 times but her death was ruled as a suicide, why Grace is determined to ensure the case gets re-opened, PA Gov. Josh Shapiro's involvement in the case, the newest details about the Bryan Kohberger case, why his defense team is pushing to be able to say Kohberger is on the autism spectrum and has OCD, whether the prosecution would accept a guilty plea, and more.Bannon- https://linktr.ee/bannonwarroomGrace- https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DBG9333Y3 Day Blinds: Visit https://3DayBlinds.com/MK & Shop the Buy One Get One 50% Off deal today!Byrna: Go to https://Byrna.com/MEGYN to save 10%Just Thrive: Visit https://justthrivehealth.com/discount/Megyn and use code MEGYN to save 20% sitewideFollow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms:YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/MegynKellyTwitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShow Find out more information at: https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, live on Sirius XM Channel 111 every weekday at noon east. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. I'm Megyn Kelly. Today we are bringing in Steve Bannon in just a moment. But first I want to start with this news update because the story is kind of confusing. So I'm, I laid it out for you. OK, it's about Pete Hegseth and the knives are out for him. They've never not been out for him. They remain out for him. Who NPR, that bastion of exclusive Trump White House gets, is reporting maybe on his way out. They're reporting that Trump is looking for a replacement, which Trump is denying. Now, why would NPR have a scoop like that about Trump not matched by Fox News or any other outlet? Ask yourself that. Here's how we got here. Someone at the Pentagon has been leaking to the press

about very serious matters, even top secret matters, like the report that appeared on NBC News in mid-March revealing that the White House had directed the Pentagon to draw up options to increase American troop presence in Panama to advance the president's goal of reclaiming the Panama Canal. What was that doing on NBC News? The report was very specific. It stated, quote, U.S. Southern Command is developing potential plans for partnering more closely with Panamanian security forces to the less likely option of U.S. troops seizing the Panama Canal by force, end quote, citing, quote, two U.S. officials familiar with the planning. The Department of Defense began investigating those leaks and made it known in the press

that they would be using polygraphs to get to the bottom of who was behind them. Now, as with any time a threat like that makes its way into the public eye via the news, one has to wonder, are they really going to polygraph everyone or are they just setting some sort of a trap? For example, first person to complain about the polygraphs is likely someone you want to polygraph or at least look into. Now, in the course of that investigation, Defense Secretary Hegseth wound up firing three of his top aides. On Friday, it happened, they were escorted out of the building. Those fired include some who had been close to Secretary Hegseth before he became

secretary, like senior advisor Dan Caldwell, who had worked with Pete at Concerned Veterans for America for some nine years. Also fired Deputy Chief of Staff Darren Selnick and Colin Carroll, Chief of Staff to the Pentagon's Deputy Secretary. A fourth staffer, a press aide named John Elliott, also parted ways with the Pentagon, supposedly because he didn't want to be second in command of the comms shop. But there's some real sour grapes with this guy. He ran to Politico, first of all, a left-wing rag, to say the Pentagon is in disarray under Secretary Hegseth and predicted that Hegseth will be fired by President Trump. Almost immediately after, Don Trump Jr. took to X and made clear that this guy, Mr. Elliott,

is not America first, though he claims to be, and is officially exiled from the movement. He's not happy with this guy, Elliot. The three alleged leakers, however, remain a bit of a mystery. Why would Pete's top aides, including his friend Dan Caldwell, allegedly leak to NBC News about alleged war plans involving the Panama Canal? And there were other leaks too, like that Elon Musk went over to the Pentagon. There were a few of them. It wasn't just the one, but this one would be top secret. All we know for sure is that Dan Caldwell appears to be part of MAGA's more non-interventionalist wing, which is fine. That's probably how Trump won the election in large part. There's absolutely nothing wrong with being non-interventionalist. I think the Republican Party in general has had it with the forever wars and the more bellicose nature of some of the parties. Certainly the neocons have become

otherized and almost enemies to that strain of the party. So there's nothing wrong with Dan Caldwell feeling that way. And he does appear to feel that way. But the question is, was that view abhorrent to the people who fired him? Mr. Caldwell seems to think so. He went on Tucker's podcast last night with his first remarks since he got the ax. And in that exchange, Caldwell suggests that he was forced out of the Pentagon, not because he leaked anything to any member of the press, which he denies doing, but because he is anti-war with Iran due to his experiences in Iraq. It started really pushing me to where I'm at now in foreign policy. We need to do something differently. And it kind of radicalized me in a certain way on this. And really, there's an argument that you need to be when you're talking about foreign policy, you kind of need to be cold and detached.

Like some people say that realists need to be cold and detached. I don't necessarily buy that. But, you know, when I hear about launching a new military operation, somebody talk about something, my first thought is, what's it going to be like for the guys? What's it going to be like for the boys that are going to be in the front? Now, the suggestion implies that Secretary Hegseth or those who suggested to Hegseth that Caldwell be fired feel differently than Caldwell does there. Though I can tell you myself from many conversations with Pete over the past six months, he is far from a neocon. We've talked all about it. He was much more pro-war as much of the Republican Party was back during the Bush years. He signed up. He left Princeton to go fight. I mean, he was in that mindset, which most of us were post 9-11. That's why he volunteered and fought at Gitmo and in Iraq

and in Afghanistan. But he's had a serious change of heart from and thanks to those experiences, much like Caldwell. Pete is not a neocon. Honestly, President Trump is the one making the most noise about bombing Iran. And Pete's job is to do what President Trump tells him. Remember this from February with Trump? You cannot allow Iran or just about anybody else, by the way, but especially Iran, because they are very militant. I mean, they're very, very militant. You can't allow them to have an environment. But there's two ways of stopping them, with bombs or with a written piece of paper. I think Iran would love to make a deal, and I would love to make a deal with them without bombing them.

Okay. I mean, that's good. But Trump hasn't taken military action against Iran off the table. It's, of course, what Israel wants. They want the green light for them to do it, which, of course, will draw all of us into a military conflict with them and their supporters as well. This is one of the topics of conversation that Caldwell and Tucker got into today. Well, I listened to it today, but it hit last night. Well, we can confirm, based on our own reporting, that Mr. Caldwell did not have his phone searched, nor was he polygraphed before he was escorted out of the Pentagon. He told Tucker that as well. But we do have to point out that those are not the only ways one can be discovered as a leaker. One of the ways they used to track confidential information at my old law firm, for example,

was to make everybody log in before they could print a document. Do you have that at your company? Maybe if you, if you work with sensitive information, they make you do that. That was one of the controversies over at the Supreme court when they leaked the Dobbs decision. Remember they were like, don't they have this system already where nothing can be printed without somebody logging in their ID number first. Um, anyway, nothing, nothing got printed at my law firm without a record of who did it. That's't know what they did at the Pentagon that led them to believe Dan Caldwell and those two others needed to go. Now we have more questions like, will Caldwell and these other two turn over their phones voluntarily to the Pentagon? Will they volunteer them? Will the other two, you know, come forward and offer their own defenses? Will these three voluntarily return any laptops or other electronics given to them by the Pentagon? Will they allow the Pentagon to search their personal laptops? by a warrant, which may well yet be heading Mr. Caldwell's way, as well as the way of his two

now fired colleagues. Because while Caldwell told Tucker he would likely already be under arrest if he'd been caught leaking, the truth is that oftentimes, in fact, I think a lot of the times, they fire the suspected leakers. They continue their investigations because they don't want them having ongoing access to confidential information. So they fire them, they continue the investigations. And then when and if they have enough to charge the person, then comes the indictment, the handcuffs and the arrest, all of which could, I don't know, but could potentially be in these guys' future. I mean, now is the time for these three to be cautious. I was kind of shocked to see the one on Tucker's podcast when he's clearing, he's going on saying, I was fired from my Iran views,

not because I leaked. We don't know whether that's true. We just don't know right now. I mean, I can tell you this. When three people are accused of participating in the same allegedly illegal scheme, one and only one has the opportunity to cut a deal. One and only one has the opportunity to cut a deal. And the first one into the Pentagon to say, choose me, is going to get a great one. Anyone after that could be looking at prison time, potentially, if, in fact, the Pentagon has evidence on leaking that it certainly seems to feel it does. All right, getting back to the main story, though, since those terminations, it's been an all-out assault on Pete Hegseth in the press. So when you read these hit pieces on Pete, you have to keep that in mind. This isn't coming out of nowhere. He did nothing to these people. He was running the Pentagon.

Then somebody leaked top secret information to NBC News. Then they opened up an investigation at the Pentagon to figure out who did it. And the next thing we knew, these guys got fired. And now suddenly the field is flooded with hit pieces on Hegseth. The White House has made clear they think it's these guys behind these. This is what happens when the entire Pentagon is working against you and working against the monumental change that you are trying to implement. And unfortunately, there have been people at that building who don't like the change the secretary is trying to bring. So they are leaking and they are lying to the mainstream media. We've seen this game played before.

The secretary is doing a tremendous job and the president stands strongly behind him. I mentioned that guy, Elliot. He wrote a direct hit piece under his own name, Politico, arguing, quote, from leaks of sensitive operational plans to mass firings. Still pissed about Doge. The dysfunction is now a major distraction for the president. So what is he talking about? He's talking about these leaks, which they investigated and just fired three people for. Elliott was not part of that firing. He's something else. And mass firings, Doge. That's the dysfunction. What's the dysfunction? People leaked. And unlike in

previous administrations, Hegseth's trying to do something about it. And yeah, Doge hit the Pentagon, same as it hit the other administrative branches. What's the dysfunction, Mr. Elliott? And went on to say, try to play to Trump's vanity, saying the president deserves better from his senior leadership. And he predicted Pete will be fired. Elsewhere, we have just been seeing the drip, drip, drip of a chaos narrative, including news that Pete allegedly had a second signal chat going about those Houthi attack plans. This one, not with all the, you know, administration officials, but with people who are close to him, his personal advisors, meaning his brother, who works with him at the Pentagon now, his attorney who also works with him at the Pentagon, he's military, and his wife who

doesn't work with him at the Pentagon and would be a controversial person with whom to share, you know, his Houthi attack plans, which again, the Pentagon is saying were not classified. And that could be because they would have, that would have to be because he had declassified them prior to sharing them with anybody. Mr. Trump asked about all of this, all of this yesterday, does second signal chat and the narrative around Pete made very clear. He stands by Hegseth. Oh, why, why do you even ask a question like that? We have recruitment that's at an all-time high. The spirit in the armed forces is fantastic. Are you bringing up Signal again? I thought they gave that up two weeks ago. There was a new report this weekend that we used in a separate chat that included some family members.

It's all just the same old stuff from the media. That's an old one. Try finding something new. Which is good because Pete is not a neocon. He's not a war hawk. He's not a chaos agent. We live in one of the most dangerous times since the end of the Cold War. There's just no doubt about it. You've refined it.

But I'm also the product of two decades of war in Iraq and Afghanistan, where my view shifted a great deal from where it was to where it is today, because you would have to be a fool to look at the outcomes in Iraq and Afghanistan and think that what we got out of them was beneficial to American national security interests. And that's not to take away from every vet who gave everything. I was one of them. Those last vet, those last folks in Afghanistan, the 13 we lost, the people who fought for the places that ISIS took back, like that investment, that fight, that mission is real. And I love all of it, but we have to be realists and clear-eyed about what

that intervention meant. The finite resources that we have, the debt that we have, the threats that we have, the responsibilities our allies have to show in Europe if they want to defend that continent. The reality of the outcome in Ukraine, Donald Trump's been very clear about that, but that he wants to end it right away. He's a war fighter who has helped already the Army, Navy and Air Force get on track for record recruiting years, who is eliminating woke from our armed forces, who is restoring lethality to our military by making sure standards are uniformly high, and much, much more. So here to help unpack some of this Republican on Republican violence is Steve Bannon, host of Bannon's War Room. You know those rare occasions where you can actually sleep in, then at the crack of dawn,

you're woken up because your blinds aren't doing their job? It's 2025. Are your blinds from 2005? What's going wrong? There is a better way. Consider 3Day Blinds, the leading manufacturer of high quality custom window treatments in the United States. And right now you can get their buy one, get one 50% off deal when you use our URL, 3dayblinds.com. Three, the numeral three, dayblinds.com slash MK. You might be dreading the installation process, but with three day blinds, there is no heavy lifting. They design, they measure, they install. Hello. So you can sit back and relax. We shop online for basically everything these days. Why not for blinds too? Three Day Blinds has thousands of options for any budget

or style, plus actual samples. So there's no guessing. Three Day Blinds has over 45 years of experience and millions of happy customers. Right now, get quality window treatments that fit your budget with Three Day Blinds. Head to threedayblinds.com slash MK for their buy one, get one 50% off deal on custom blinds, shades, shutters, and drapery. For a free, no charge, no obligation consultation, head to 3dayblinds.com slash MK, buy one, get one 50% off at the number 3dayblinds.com slash MK. Steve, welcome back. What do you make of all this? Well, you know, having worked in the Pentagon after I came off sea duty back the first day that President

Reagan came. I was there for, I don't know, three, three and a half, almost four years. There's one thing about controlling that building and another thing about being President Trump's senior national security advisor for the military. I think this goes back, and I think Caldwell, people got to watch that Tucker interview. I think there's some deep and disturbing truths in that. This is, and I think the leaks and all this stuff is they're wanting us to chase rabbits here.

The core of this to me gets down to, you said Republican on Republican, Megan, I think it's almost even deeper than this. This is about the America first national security policy and about how we've had been a neoliberal neocon country for 40 or 50 years. This gets down to, I believe, this whole strategy in the Middle East and people like Caldwell who came from the Koch's defense priority, which essentially also made Pete and transformed Pete. And years ago, they were looking to do that, transform him from a Fox News host to someone who could go into senior levels of national security by giving him some of these veterans groups and others that would promote him something over and above just a media figure. I think it shouldn't be lost on anybody that this comes up.

And I say this with total respect for Tucker, who I respect and I consider a friend and a colleague, that our show and our part of the MAGA base, we're quite, or at least two-thirds of our audience, 80%, are very pro-Israel in the defense, but we're very anti any type of military conflict with Persia about these nuclear sites. I think this comes down to a fundamental break between the defense priority guys and the Koch organization, which is much more isolationist, much more bring it all home versus people who are engaged, want to understand we have to be engaged in the world. We have to have a national security policy, even around hemispheric defense that is forward leaning, but we don't want to lead with military. We want to lead with economic warfare and others.

And I think that's where this rift is. It shouldn't be lost on in your story, which I thought was a brilliant overview of this and bringing in all the elements you know bb netanyahu has come here twice in the last four or five weeks one time president trump literally blew up the conversation with trump gaza which kind of came out of nowhere and and because bb was here to pitch the united states being a part of an active part of a military support for at least an air assault, maybe even a ground assault into Persia to take down their nuclear facilities, which would be catastrophic from a military view if you know what the damage assessment would be.

He came back under the headline of tariffs, but he was here to make a second pitch because President Trump did not engage the first time. And President Trump basically told him in front of the world, hey, by the way, we're starting negotiations one on one with no participation of Israel with the Persians starting next week in Oman. And now it's going to continue again in Rome this weekend with which I'm sure the president being there for the Pope's funeral may even participate or have some sort of more direct involvement. So I think this gets down to, and I think we ought to get on the table,

it gets down to the situation with Israel and people like Tucker and Kurt Mills and other brilliant people who I think the world of saying, hey, for too long we've had the tail wag the dog, right? And President Trump and others who are supporters of Israel saying, hey, look, this has to be part of an American national security policy. And we have to have this. And I don't totally agree with President Trump about a piece of paper, but it has to be something other than a military conflict. I don't think it's lost on people that the Pentagon has been accused under Pete and with these guys of not having detailed plans and support criteria

ready to basically jump in here and have it. They've kind of slow walked it. And I think the reason they've slow walked it is that there is this President Trump, and he said it again the other day in the press briefing, the press avail on on the oval yeah that he wants peace he wants a peaceful way to settle this uh i don't like the ver and he's got his top guy whitcoff on the negotiation this i don't like the v word i don't like verification i think this has to be taken down piece by piece and i think we have to go up the escalatory ladder on economic warfare number one my question is why are we allowing you know they say 1.5 million but it's really almost two and a half million barrels of oil a day to leave iran that funds the mullahs uh and goes to the straits

of hermuz uh to uh through straits of malacca to China. And it's 22% to 25% of China's output of which, oh, by the way, we're engaged in an economic war right now. I think going up the escalatory ladder, which would say, hey, I've been in a carrier battle group off the coast of Iran for the hostage crisis in the Persian Gulf. We've got two carrier battle groups right now in the Red Sea keeping the Suez Canal open. Just move one over, you know, over to in front of the Straits of Hormuz and let's do a blockade, a naval quarantine of everything.

And the mullahs will be gone in 100 days. Now, you're going up the escalatory ladder. But I think all of this in the Pentagon gets down to a major fissure on really our national security policy going forward? And are we prepared to get sucked back into an open conflict in the Middle East again? I don't think you're wrong. And I, but I wonder who they're fighting. I think they're fighting Trump, not Pete. You know, Pete is Trump's executor. Like Pete will do what he is told to do. And Trump has had, he hasn't been as non-interventionalist as that core strain of MAGA. Right. Like he bombed Soleimani. His rhetoric around Iran has been a lot more bellicose than I think some in the party would like to hear. our boys are going to have to go fight a war against Iran at all, much less than have to do it.

But I think what, like my take on this story, this is my own opinion based on the facts as I just laid them out, is that probably there is a strong anti-interventionalist strain within the Pentagon. A lot of these, you know, and this guy Caldwell's former military too, he fought abroad and saw horrible things. And I think a lot of those guys like Pete got to the place where they do not want us to be too trigger happy. And so I'm not saying Caldwell leaked the, those top secret documents to, uh, NBC news, but it certainly could have been him. And it looks like the Pentagon thinks it was him. And if you were to do it, why would he do it? Well, because those documents were about possible war down in Panama, possible use of armed forces in the, in Panama.

It's possible there is a strain even within the Pentagon. That's even more to just make it easy to understand dovish than those in charge and certainly more dovish than Trump. I, I, I see your analysis and I'm a disagree. And here's why I think there's not. And this is about, this is why the promotions under Bush and Obama and president Trump the first time with Madison, these guys, you know, we took, we took down the Caliphate, but, but remember the center of gravity of us foreign policy and military in the defense contractors is big army, big operations in CENCOM in the middle East. It shouldn't be lost you on the. When you're doing the signal chat,

the one thing that jumps off the page at you is President Trump is not engaged with these guys on a real-time basis. Who is he talking to in real time? Go back and look at the chats. They're kind of throwing up ideas and getting them up to speed. They're directly talking to the combatant commander

in CENTCOM on the Houthi thing. President Trump's engaged directly with the combatant commander right there at CENTCOM. CENCOM is the center of gravity. This is why Obama failed on the pivot to Asia. All the pivot to Asia he did. Wait, wait, wait, let me just keep it simple for me. Keep it simple for me. Why would somebody, and again, with all due respect to Dan Kahl, who I want to underscore, is denying that he leaked anything. But why would someone like that leak the alleged war plans? I mean, the report was that Trump had asked the Pentagon to drop war plans against the Panama against the Panamanians basically to retain the Panama Canal. Why would they leak that?

Here's why. Because because the strategic endeavor of President Trump is a hemispheric defense. It's to get off the Eurasian landmass in a direct military conference. Look, you look at NATO, you look at the Gulf, Emirates and the Middle East, you look around to the Straits of Malacca, the South China Sea, you look up to Korea and Japan. Around the rim of the Eurasian landmass where we fought all the wars of the 20th century, you have America. You have American commercial relationships, trade deals, capital markets, but it's underwritten by an American security guarantee This is why we have a trillion dollar defense budget

This is why the the kids the sons and daughters of the deplorable on to carry battle groups in the Red Sea to keep the Suez Canal open for Europe what President Trump has said in Panama central this for the non interventionist or at least to tone it down We're gonna shift to a hemispheric defense and that hemispheric defense is going to go from the panama canal initially from the panama canal which we're going to control to block the chinese and russian navy from meeting in caribbean all the way up to greenland where we're going to block this russian navy from coming through mermansk and archangel, coming down to the North Atlantic to basically put ballistic missile submarines off of New York so they can launch in the United States

and fast attacks down off of Norfolk and all of our ports on the East Coast. Also, you talk about Canada and the Arctic, that's part of the hemispheric defense. Pete Hess's first visit outside of Panama was to go to the Three Island chain, Hawaii, Guam, and the Philippines to talk about the vast Pacific as that is the natural defense of the United States.

President Trump's strategy is brilliant. And Marco Rubio's first trip as Secretary of State was down to Panama. Go ahead, keep going. Panama. Yes. And hey, the guys in the Pentagon, the defense contractors are smart people and they're tough. They ran Elon Musk out of there in a second. He hasn't done anything about the Pentagon these are the original

gangsters okay they're oh geez and they said to go hang on the hemisphere defense is the way you cut to the fence budget down from a trillion dollars to five hundred billion dollars and really defend America and then on expeditionary forces you can pick and choose wherever you go for that but we're off the eurasian we're off we're off we're off we're off of the eurasian landmass okay but wait but you got to help me because if that whole if that what you were saying ended with and is was and dan caldwell is a neocon who doesn't want that he wants he doesn't want to pen defense department budgets to be slashed he wants us to be more interventionalist in in eurasia and he doesn't want us to be focusedashed. He wants us to be more interventionalist in Eurasia,

and he doesn't want us to be focused on Panama. Then it would make sense. But he's not. He's aligned with Tucker. He's aligned with Tucker, but that's the people turfing him out. Remember, he's the one turfed out. Look, I'm not a huge Dan Colwell fan originally. He's okay. He's one of these Koch guys, the defense priorities, which are total isolationists and kind of support at what i would call hemispheric defense the reason he was turfed out and they leaked they leaked uh the um and i'm not so sure he leaked it allegedly leaked but the the panama war plans i'm not so sure he actually leaked them we'll have to find that over time is they're trying to get rid of the tucker the people more aligned with tucker carlson the defense priority guys, who Pete really came from that area.

That's why Pete's sitting there going, it's his chief of staff, these other guys. It looks like the building's coming after Pete. I think this comes down fundamentally in what your audience ought to think of. There's two separate ways you look at American national security in the 21st century. President Trump is presenting a radical, but a plan that goes back to our founders in the, in the Monroe doctrine and manifest destiny about you take care of the Western hemisphere. If you secure the Western hemisphere with the vast Pacific, which is as big as the Eurasian landmass as a defense, and you, and you take care of the Russian Navy from the Arctic and

from Greenland and from panama you've basically hermetically sealed the united states this is why he's also talking about a iron dome type thing or anti-ballistic missile once you've done that you've hermetically sealed the united states and probably had the potential of cutting our defense budget by half okay if you continue and and this the plan of what the pentagon has is not sustainable if you continue this madness of us being everywhere and having troops everywhere and having you know from ukraine to the middle east to everywhere you're you're going to bankrupt the nation and i think that's the fundamental thing and you're seeing turmoil and pete does not have control of the building

i'm a huge pete fan we we went fixed bayonets on p Pete when he was almost tossed over for Ron DeSantis very early in the confirmation phase. So our audience is 100% back of Pete. We want Pete to stay. But this gets to deeper and they're coming after Trump. That's why this is the deep state. Marco Rubio today had a huge restructuring of the State Department. You're gonna see, and they leaked it on Sunday with some false things. The deep state was the national security council, whether it's at DNI, whether it's at CIA state department or particularly the Pentagon is trying to put a siege mentality on president Trump that he can't take any actions he wants to do to brace basically implement Megan, the America first national security strategy. And this is a live fire exercise. They're out

for Pete Hexeth. And I think NPR is based on, I think Ron DeSantis is out there telling people, you should have picked me at first that who's you going to trade out Pete on. I'm in the bullpen. I'm ready to go. And the Republican establishment would love that. Oh, wow. There's a, there is something coming in from left field. Is Ron DeSantis the source that NPR is basing its, they're out looking for others? Because Eric Erickson, a conservative commentator, was all over X last night saying he's hearing it too from White House staffers. I'm being assured it's not true. And Trump himself on camera yesterday saying it's not true with no wiggle room. Trump knows how to leave himself a little wiggle room, but he gave a full-throated endorsement of Pete. I remain confused. I still don't get it. If Caldwell's the leaker of the Panama Canal attack plan news,

that would be something that would be done by someone who is, I think, extremely dovish, which he sounds like he is, but he, in that interview with Tucker, sounded more pro-protecting Panama Canal than getting involved in Iran. So it doesn't make sense to me that he's the leaker to NBC, and that's a point in his favor. In any event, we'll find out eventually because we're going to know. Unfortunately, the leakers today- I think your summary was brilliant. I think your summary

is brilliant, and I think folks really ought to focus on this because it gets to, if you see the way they're coming at President Trump through the judiciary and the courts, the deep state, and this is my problem. When I hear Pete talking about we're going to have an investigation and light all this, and we're going to put it to DOJ. Hey, this thing right now in DOJ should be number 20. I mean, people have to wake up. We have to have a sense of urgency.

Right now We are burning daylight. We're 18 months away or however long away from the midterm elections where if, if, if, if they raise $2 billion and flip a couple of seats in New York and California, Hakeem Jefferson going to speak at the house, they're going to impeach Trump in the first weeks of, uh, of not going to removing, but impeaching, we're going to get to this whole thing again. And people are not at DOJ at FBI and others are not at doj at fbi and others are not moving quickly enough and fast enough for the sense of urgency and even cia and dni of taking down the deep state these people are at war with president trump what's happening

to pete hexeth is part of that war and we have to stop it by direct action you just can't sit there and wish it away and don't think that the election in November means anything to these people. They're dug in now more than ever and understand they need to get rid of Trump and they need to get rid of Trumpism. That's exactly right. They'd be thrilled to get Pete Hegseth's scalp. They couldn't care less. They don't think there's chaos. They don't care about any of that. They just want to scalp anyone on Team Trump will do. Sec def would be brilliant in their minds. That's all they care about. And I think Trump should stand by him and not show them that he'll roll over based on Politico and NPR, which doesn't sound like Trump to me. I think he will stand by him. And by the way, we'll hear more. This is not

going to be it. They're not done with Pete, especially these guys who are now obviously going to be pretty bitter that they got fired. I'm sure we'll see more. So Trump's going to have to be steely spined on Pete as he has been from the beginning. All right, let's talk about what the Democrats have done. I mean, if you, if Trump had like drawn it up in a like dark cigar smoke filled room, he couldn't have done much better than to get all these Democrats running down to embrace this MS 13 gang member, wife beater, Abrego Garcia. But they're doing it. The best video I saw online was someone used AI to show Chris Van Hollen, Senator Van Hollen of Maryland, dancing with the MS-13 guy, Abrego Garcia, in like a waltz together. Sometimes AI is used for good.

But they're running down there to embrace him, Steve. And while we don't know what's going to happen on the legal battle for Trump, he's had a setback with the Supreme Court this past weekend. PR wise, politically, he's winning this, isn't he? He's winning it, but I would say it's a quite brilliant strategy. I think they're doing it because this is not about the criminal gangs. Clearly, they're embracing these people, and the American people are 80-20 against that. But their overall strategic goal is no mass deportations. Under Biden's watch, we have at least 10 million illegal alien invaders here.

If I was running their operations, I'd kind of do the same thing, is delay and deny. Block Trump on the most egregious. If they can slow us down, Megan, on MS-13, if they can slow us down with the Venezuelan gang, if they can do that, when do we actually get to the mass deportations? And here's what happens on the deep state. You talk about – exactly. First off, we'll wear them down. We'll change the public. The Wall Street guys have come out and said we need these guys for the economy they had two percent of gdp that the wages are

low because of this they're they are most focused on the 10 million because they want them here as essentially indentured servants but also as voters that's why you got to keep the eyes on the price and honestly they've slowed us down they the courts, but let's talk about what happened in the courts. President Trump used the Alien Enemies Act of 1798. One of the predicates of that is actually make the case for an invasion by a foreign power and using these gangs. The Deep State came out over the weekend with a national intelligence estimate kind of leaked to the press to say, hey, the community, you know, over at DNI, they're doing this internal analysis and it doesn't support that at all. This is what's happening. I think the Democrats are playing their cards smartly. Although for most people, they're sitting there going, how can they embrace these guys? They're embracing these, the worst of the worst to slow

us down and getting the worst of the worst out. Now they got us jammed up in court. They got president Trump's, the energy, the they got president trump's the energy the attention and nobody's talking about the mass deportations you wait to the the bill comes up uh for the the reconciliation where we're asking for 170 billion dollars to rebuild the infrastructure the ice and the logistics to get people out of here that's going to be another firestorm so i think we got to double and triple down uh you're a lawyer. I'm not. I think President Lincoln, you know, held up a habeas corpus in the Civil War. General Washington was all for it. And a couple of times, you know, after he became president about the situation we have

with the French Revolution and some of the French people over here, I think you've got to get much more on everything we're doing on taking down the deep state and going after this aspect of it. I think we have to double and triple down now. There can't be any retreat and no pushback. And quite frankly, the courts have got us jammed up. And I think we've got to look at other alternative methods. And I think there's got to be a challenge. There is a constitutional crisis right now. My point is go maximalist on this and let's bring it to a head and let's bring it to a head and let's bring it now

so we can get to the mass deportations. Otherwise, the Democrats are gonna win. Yes, I totally agree with that. We talked about the numbers just the other day. You know, they were 10 and a half million before Joe Biden took over in this country. And now you've got the Center for Migrant Studies saying, well, now they estimate it's about 11.7.

Oh, way more than a million came in under Joe Biden. In fact, CPB estimates it's more like 8.2 million. So now you're talking, you know, to round up 20 million illegals here, 500,000 of which, a little less, are said to be also extra criminals. You know, you're a criminal if you came in here illegally, but then committed other crimes. And that's what he's starting with. So they've been doing a good job of stopping it legally. But how can Trump, I mean, Trump could, in the Abrego Garcia case, literally under the best, totally, what's the opposite of the straw man, stone manning, strong manning, the other side's argument. I'm a strong man, the other side's argument. I'm a strong man. The other side's argument, the absolute best they can argue about a Brego Garcia is that he's entitled to be flown back to the United States, brought in

front of an immigration judge who can then say that gang you were fearing in El Salvador is no longer. Therefore the, uh, suspension of removal to El Salvador is lifted. And now you have to go back home and then we fly them home. That is literally the best case scenario for a Brego Garcia right now. And this is all this time and U.S. senators and energy expended on this one man's case. Forget the fact that he's a gang member, allegedly. Forget the fact that he's a white wife beater. It's all interesting, but it's irrelevant legally. All you have to prove is that he was here illegally and deported, which he was. He was. All that happened, except the court said, but not to El Salvador, because he's convinced me he's going to get killed if he gets sent back there. So all we'd have to do is fly back here, have a little hearing where they said, you know what? That threat is no longer existent. You're going back home to

El Salvador. Done. But the reason they won't do it is what you just said, because you do that for the one they've won. The ACLU has won. If we do that, if we're, and I don't like the fact he's been transferred from Seacott. I don't like the direction of this so far. This is the worst of the worst. And look how the media's embraced this and made this guy a hero.

The reason is it's about due process. If, and their concept of these invaders, if we bring him back for that hearing, it's over. It's over. It's over for the sovereignty of the country. It's over for the country. You're never going to get to the rest of the criminal gangs. President Trump, I think, came out on Truth Social today. Megan, look, you know this a thousand times better than I do. I think he said the calculation that the ICE guys have done is 200 years. You'd have 200 years to even get to the criminals not even to

the 10 million just the due process hearings you would have to have it over and over again so i think we have to take a hard line on this i think stephen miller is 100 correct i think we have to take a hard line and i would like further action i just think now's the time to do it i do believe and i think look the the supreme court to come out at 1 o'clock in the morning in the dark at night over Easter weekend and put out a ruling and then have Justice Alito put out his opinion was blistering to his colleagues. We have now – this thing is up at the Supreme Court and there's a civil war in the Supreme Court on the conservative side not even talking about the the progressive judges that we've allowed and these guys are now feeling empowered you're going to have lawsuits on tariffs you're going to lawsuits on every action president trump's going to do to delay is to deny and they're playing it masterfully the the justice department is overwhelmed because you only have

so many lawyers yes this is we have to lance the boil on this. Otherwise the legal insurrection of these neo-Marxist judges is, is going to win just by overwhelming us. And that's why I think it's more and more direct and tough action. I just don't think anybody's account other than the Trump administration, but none of these courts and we're not effectively making the point, I guess, enough to the judges or the appellate court judges or the Supreme Court that every single one of these came into this country without affording anybody any due process. No hearing was held to allow them. No application was filed to allow them. They just broke our laws. Why can't we just afford them commensurate due process with that they afforded us in coming into the country? Shouldn't it be a quid pro quo? It should be a match.

If you fill out forms and we erroneously said you can stay here and now we're trying to deport you, you get your full hearing. But if you broke our laws to come here, why do you deserve anything before we get you out of here? Megan, you're arguing law, constitutional law. You're arguing logic and the rule of law. I'm saying this is not about that. You can make all those arguments and they don't care. Boasberg, look, on the unitary theory of the executive where president Trump's please show some respect. No, but this is my point. He stepped in the middle of this, of president Trump's primary responsibility, being commander in chief of the armed forces and being commander in chief and taking an oath to God about the national security of the United

States. He stepped in the middle of it and now is bringing criminal, is setting up a record of criminal contempt charges of which, as you remember, I went to prison. They're trying to do the exact same thing around people around President Trump. This is so obvious. This gets back to the Pentagon. Folks, you have to understand this deep state. This just didn't occur overnight. This had been 40 or 50 years all those generals and field officers and civilians have been around forever as part of the deep state of the pentagon they're just not going to have pete hexes come in with president trump's ideas a handful of people and say oh this is terrific why didn't we think of this the same

way the judiciary look at the radical nature of these judges you're the lawyer you're a constitutional lawyer you know how outrageous some of this has been it's post-constitutional that's what the american people and particularly maga has to wake up i think even more to and say hey look we're not playing by the old rules here anymore because they're going to bury president trump in that way and that's why i think we have to be even more aggressive and more outside the box and i think this legal insurrection and you see this at the Supreme Court of the United States, to file something in the middle of the night at 1 o'clock in the morning

and then have Alito so furious that he puts out his own opinion, which throws a couple of sharp elbows at people, his colleagues. And the colleagues he was throwing a sharp elbow at was the chief justice of the Supreme Court, Roberts, right? So we're in it now. Not a single Trump justice voted to stop it either. Not one of the Trump justices voted. It's not that they're obligated to vote on his side. It's just if you are a conservative justice and you're opposing both Alito and Thomas, you've done something wrong. Okay, I've got to get your reaction to Letitia James finding herself on the wrong side of the law. Allegedly the audience probably remembers we reported this late last week,

but now she's been referred to the DOJ by this housing investigator for having allegedly filled out fraudulent forms and getting two different mortgages, one out of Virginia, which she claimed reportedly as her primary residence, even though her primary residence is in New York where she's attorney general and one out of New York where she claimed allegedly for mortgage break purposes, that it was a dwelling that didn't have more than four apartments when in fact it has five and she would have had to pay more in a mortgage if she had been honest. And then he also alleged that back in 1990, 1983, she applied for a mortgage with her father, claiming the two of them were husband and wife, allegedly as part of

a scheme just to show she has a long history of playing fast and loose with the facts in applying for mortgages, meaning she thinks she's entitled to do something that the rest of us are not. So she finally spoke out to this on Thursday. And here is what she said on New York Spectrum One. Let me just say to all New Yorkers and to all Americans, the allegations are baseless. The allegations are nothing more than a revenge tour. As any good attorney, I will not litigate this case in a camera. It's important that we will respond to these allegations at the appropriate time and in an appropriate way. Now she doesn't want to litigate cases on camera, Steve. If those facts are the case,

I hope the DOJ and the Southern District of New York are moving rapidly to do a quick investigation, panel a grand jury, and let's get on with it. This is another thing about let's just move off, and it looks pretty straightforward, right, on the facts that have been presented. She's presented no counter facts about this. It looks pretty straightforward, right, on the facts that have been presented. She's presented no counter facts about this. It looks pretty egregious. And I think it was done at the same time that she was dropping these charges, these phony charges on President Trump.

So what's good for the goose is better for the gander. I would say let's get on it and get on it quickly. This is what I'm saying about we've got to have a sense of urgency. I would hope we would be seeing if the facts are the case and you have to have an investigation, you would be seeing an indictment pretty quickly. And and let's perp walker into into federal court and see, she says, you're not going to do it. She's not going to do it on TV. That's fine. We'll do it in a court of law, but get on with it. Right on. The Daily Caller sent two reporters down to Virginia, where she claimed it was her primary residence. Again, clearly, obviously not. She's the AG of New York. She's required to live

here. Just to see, you know, like, is she here? Does she own this building? Is this somehow her primary residence? Here's how that went, SOT 35. Hi there. I'm a reporter with the Daily Caller News Foundation. Goodbye, you're trespassing. I'm sorry. You're trespassing. My kids are out here. I understand. We mean no trouble. We're just curious who the occupants of the home are because there's-

Don't worry about who's occupants. That's none of your business. Well, there are connections to New York Attorney General Letitia James. Are you related to Letitia James? Do you know her? You're trespassing. Go in the house. Do you know Letitia James. That doesn't matter. You're trespassing. Are you related to Letitia James? Do you know her? You're trespassing. Go in the house. Do you know Letitia James? You're trespassing. Okay. No comment. Thank you, ma'am. Don't come up to my house no more. Thank you, ma'am.

Thank you, ma'am. You have a good one. You will. Be well. Hello there, ma'am. No comment. You're trespassing. No comment? Yeah, you're trespassing. Okay, well, who lives here? You're trespassing. Who lives here, ma'am? No comment. No comment? Okay, who lives here? Who lives here, ma'am? No comment. Okay. It didn't sound like Letitia James to me, Steve.

I know her voice pretty well by now. She's also never shot about a camera. That'd be the first time she didn't want to jump in front of a microphone, right, Megan? Okay, absolutely. Speaking of people who love to be in front of the microphone, your, Megan? Okay, absolutely. Speaking of people who love to be in front of the microphone, your old pal AOC, you've had very complimentary things to say about her in the past and her ability to resonate with the crowd and the Democrats, is making a run for it right now. Fight the oligarchy tour. They're getting a lot of, tens of thousands of people

to watch AOC and Bernie. And she's polling at the top of the Dem field right now. All the numbers are relatively low, but she's at the top of it. I think she's right behind Kamala Harris in terms of their next favorite. So what do you make of what she's doing right now and whether it sets her up for a possible presidential run next time around?

Let's talk about the substance in a second, but the optics are clearly, a party that's dispirited and doesn't have, you know, any way forward and really has no policies. She's out there as a dynamic personality. She's putting some energy into first. The number one is you've got to get people to kind of believe in something. Hey, we're going to fight for something. So in that regard, I think she is energy because the, the, the, the geriatrics and the democratic Party are not just wrong on policy. They're beaten, right? You can tell that. And they don't have a response. Now, you look at the substance of the fight, the oligarchy. I've never seen anything more crassly, a bigger lie and phony i have watched virtually every second of the speeches of her and bernie because i am impressed by the crowds they are drawing and this is just not all coachella they've driven

huge crowds in the middle of a beautiful saturday in los angeles they're getting people there those people are thirsting for kind of populism this is what the democratic party abandoned the bayonets the democratic party in the credential class walked away from the working class those people do want to fight the oligarchs unfortunately everything bernie and and uh and aoc saying these speeches has nothing really about attacking the oligarchs it's all this kind of green new deal and gaza it's it's everything but the heart of the matter the heart of the matter is president trump's tariff policy and what he's trying to do is bring manufacturing jobs back here for the working class. If you look at the tax bill, everything's everybody's talking about is

President Trump is open to. And I think you'll be shocked to see that President Trump is not going to allow a snapback at the upper bracket. In fact, I think he'll create a million dollar bracket and that bracket will be at 40 percent. He will actually tax the wealthy in this entire tax plan something that schumer and and and and pelosi and biden didn't do in the first hundred days when they had everything in 2021 they talked about it it didn't even come out of committee president trump will do it the third thing is in federal court in washington dc working off lena khan's great work when she was head of the ftTC and abandoned by Kamala Harris and abandoned by Joe Biden. You have Zuckerberg, who has been a supplicant to President Trump.

You've had Zuckerberg there in court about breaking up the Facebook empire. And we have Google in Northern Virginia and D.C. about breaking up their empire. Trump Justice Department, Trump FTC breaking up the oligarchs. The Republican Party under Trump, the MAGA movement is taking down the oligarchs. AOC and Bernie are running around cosplaying populist. Steve Bannon, the one and only, always with a great take on things. Great to see you. Thanks for being here. Megan, thank you so much.

Appreciate you. Fascinating, right? My God, there's so much in the news and you really have to buckle in to really digest it all. Next up, Nancy Grace is here and she is going to tell us about possibly the most bizarre criminal case I have ever heard of. I do not understand what happened here or how the system failed this family. But man, oh man, does she have a story for you. Stay tuned. These days, personal safety is not something that can be left to chance. Whether at home, on the road, or just living everyday life, having a reliable way to protect yourself and your family is crucial. That's why Burna is the choice for so many.

Burna is a game-changing, less lethal self-defense tool. Compact, powerful, and easy to use, it provides the confidence to act in any situation. Burna uses non-lethal rounds, tear gas, pepper, and kinetic projectiles to effectively stop a threat from a safe distance. And the best part? Burna can be shipped direct to your door

and it's legal in all 50 states. Burna is proudly American with products hand assembled in Fort Wayne, Indiana. Sometimes a firearm is not the right option for you. And Burna provides a powerful alternative. Protect what matters most with Burna. Visit byrna.com slash Megan to receive a 10% discount and learn why thousands of people, including law enforcement agencies, are adding Berna's less lethal protection. Berna, non-lethal self-defense, always ready. I cannot wait to bring you the story. Okay. This is the most bizarre,

disturbing case I have heard in recent memory. It remains sort of unsolved. I mean, you'll see why I say sort of. More than 14 years after it happened. Ellen Greenberg was a 27-year-old bride-to-be, first grade teacher, whole life in front of her, living in Philadelphia, loving family, whole bed, fiance whom she reportedly loved. One night that fiance, Sam Goldberg, returned home. They'd been in the apartment together. She had gotten home early from school because it had been a very snowy day. So they apparently let school out. She came home early. He was home too. They lived in a six floor apartment in this Philadelphia, nice apartment building. And he

went downstairs to work out in the gym that was in their apartment building. He came back upstairs and couldn't get the door open. Like one of those latches, those latch locks was closed. He had been in the apartment with her some 45 minutes earlier, and now it was latched, the latch lock from inside. So he starts banging on the door and he says he went down to the doorman and enlisted help and so on. There's a dispute about whether that happened, but net net, he wound up breaking the door in, breaking the lock basically to get in and says that is where he found his fiance who appeared to him to be dead. Now he called 911. Nancy Grace is here and she's going to break. She's written an amazing new book on this, but listen to this. Okay. Because he called 911 and it's a long call, but I'm going

to play you the entire thing. We're going to bring Nancy in and she's going to explain to us why this case has wound up being so bizarre and controversial. But just listen to his 911 call. Oh, my God. I need a thing. I just I just walked to my apartment. She's on the floor with blood everywhere. What is the address? Forty six. Oh,1 Flat Rock Road. Please

come help now. 4601 Flat Rock Road. Is this a house or apartment? Oh no. Oh no. It's an apartment. Please hurry. Please. Where is she bleeding from? I don't know. I can't tell. So you have to calm yourself down in order to get you some help. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I don't know. I'm looking at her right now. I can't see anything. There's nothing broken. She's bleeding. Allie.

You don't know where she's bleeding from? Can't tell where the blood's coming from? I think her head. I think she hit her head. I think. But it's everywhere. It's everywhere. She might have fallen.

Do you know what happened? She may have slipped. There's blood on the table. Her face is a little purple. Okay, hold on for rescue for her. Stay on the phone. What's wrong? I went downstairs to go work out.

I came back up. The door was lashed. My fiance's inside. She wasn't answering. So after about a half hour, I decided to break it down. I see her now just on the floor with blood. She's not responding. Okay, is she breathing? Look at her chest. I need you to calm down, and I need you to look at her chest.

I really don't think she is. Listen to me. Someone's on the way. Look at her chest. Is she flat on her back? She's on her back. Look at her chest and tell me if it's going up and down, up and down. I don't see her moving. Okay. Do you know how to do CPR? I don't.

Okay. I can tell you what to do, okay, until they get there. I want you to keep her flat on her back. Oh, God. Hello? Yeah, hi. Okay. Are you willing to do CPR with me over the phone until they get there?

I have to, right? Okay. So get her flat on her back. Bear her chest. Okay? You want to rip her shirt off. Okay? You need to kneel down by her side.

Oh, my God. Allie, please. Listen, listen. You can't freak out, sir. Okay, I'm trying not to. I'm trying not to. Her shirt won't come off. It's a zipper.

Oh, my God. She stabbed herself. Where? She fell on a knife. Oh, no. Her knife's sticking out. Her what? There's a knife sticking out of her heart.

Oh, she stabbed herself? I guess so. I don't know where she fell on it. I don't know. Okay, well, don't touch it. Okay, so I'm just going to let her down here now? I mean, what do I do? No, I mean, you can't. If the knife is in her chest, it's going to be kind of hard for you to do CPR at this time. Oh, no. Oh, my goodness. Okay. Police with Shopperator.

277. Is someone coming here? Yes, they are. You said 4601 Flat Rock, right? Yes. Okay, someone's on the way. And the knife is still inside? Wait, is there what?

The knife is still inside of her? Yes, I didn't take it out. Was it her chest or what area? It's in her chest. It looks like it's right in her heart. OK, someone's on the way out here, OK? Just get this over with. Oh my god.

How old is she? She's 27. 27. And there's no sign of life at all? No, no, no. Please don't be. What? Venture under her arm and told me she responds to pain.

She's... Ellie! She's not... Her arms and her hands are still warm. I don't know what that means. But there's blood everywhere. I mean... I know, but you can't...

And the knife is still inside of her. How far? Can you see how far it went in? It looks pretty deep. Okay. It looks three... And it's a long knife. Don't touch anything.

Yeah, don't touch anything, okay? I'm not touching anything. I can't believe this, though. No, wait, it was just you there with her? We, yeah, we're the only ones here. And she ran in the door, you said, latched it shut? No, no, I went downstairs to work out, and when I came back up, the door was latched. Oh.

Like, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't like, you know, it was like locked from the inside and I'm yelling. And I saw it was, so I'm yelling. No, no, no, no, no. So it's no sign of a break in? No, no sign of a break in at all. I mean, there will be when you get here because I had to break the latch, but to get in. Okay, 4601.

Unbelievable. That was her fiance, Sam Goldberg. She would eventually go to the coroner's office where he would find she had been stabbed more than 20 times. And the medical examiner ruled her death a suicide, a suicide. Our next guest, Nancy Grace, has dedicated her life to finding answers in criminal cases. And this is very much her latest project. She's written a whole book about it. It's called what happened to Ellen, an American miscarriage of justice. You can get it via audio. I downloaded the audio this morning. She had sent me the book. You can get it the hard copy to, uh, Nancy, welcome back to the show. Take it from there. Unbelievable. Like a, a suicide, like

people do commit suicide, but 20 times they stabbed themselves. Can you like explain how? First of all, thank you for inviting me. I really appreciate it. And on behalf of her mother and father, Josh and Sandy, the only way to get justice in this case is to bring the feds in on the case. And I'll explain why, but just let it sink in. Despite 20 knife wounds, 20 knife wounds, 11 bruises, and catch this, the textbook signs of strangulation. I'm not saying, Megan, that she died. The COD is not cause of death. It's not strangulation.

But she was strangled. There are bruise marks that are unrelated to the stab wounds on her neck and strap muscles like this. See what I mean? Here and here. I can see them with the naked eye and the autopsy photos. But listen to this. When the then medical examiner, Dr. Marlon Osborne, first got Ellen's body, he ruled it a homicide. Of course, she stabbed 20 times, including 10 stab wounds to the back, even slicing her dura, the protective sheath around the spine. Yet she kept stabbing herself 20 times.

So naturally, he said, this is a homicide. Wait for it. Then, because police had already said, oh, yeah, a lot from the inside. This is definitely a suicide. They go meet with the medical examiner, and this stinks to high heaven, the medical examiner, Marlon Osborne, a rep from the district attorney's office, a female prosecutor who has now gotten immunity about this, and members of the police department, Philly PD. They all meet behind closed doors. When the ME comes out, he goes, correction, it's a suicide. Okay. What happened in 72 hours?

It was a homicide. They have the meeting. They never divulge what happened. He comes out and goes, change my mind. Oopsie. And rules it a suicide now the parents of ellen greenberg have spent their life savings this is just before the wedding they've already booked the venue gorgeous the band the food the works it's all done she met mr wright okay she was happy why suicide they spent all their life savings they just sold their house megan to try to get her name cleared that she did not commit suicide so they sue the city the cops they throw the book they sue them civilly they're picking the jury and the m.e is going to have to take the stand and divulge what happened in that closed door meeting, why he changed his ruling.

Last minute, 11th hour, they settled the case. Rather than tell the truth, he settles the case. Where does that leave the case? Pending. And I'm telling you, Josh Shapiro, the now governor, and you know how I hate to talk about politics because I don't want the crimes I report and investigate to be any swayed by politics. Josh Shapiro was the state AG at the time. He was begged, look at this. He's like, I don't see any evidence. I agree with the police. How could he say that? He was this close to the Oval Office

until the name Ellen Greenberg popped up in the media, and suddenly he was off the roster of potential VP candidates. That's right. That's how controversial this case is. And now he's the governor. So one of the, there's so many really interesting facts connected with this. One of the damning facts against Sam Goldberg, who is, you know, obviously suspected by some as having killed her, he denies it forcefully and is disgusted that that's been alleged and has a strong statement about mental health and how people don't understand it. But we're going to consider him because obviously that's what many people, including Ellen's family, think happened, that he killed her. But one of the

things that is not a good fact for him is he did while, I think, while outside the apartment trying to get in, or that's at least during the period he says he was out there trying to get in, he made two phone calls or he made a phone call to a cousin who happens to be a lawyer and that cousin's father, who's a lawyer, called him back. So Nancy, that jumped out at me as like, why if your fiance is outside of apartment in which, you know, you're non-responsive, why would he be calling a lawyer? Can you explain what happened there? Well, that jumped out at me as well. However, I will say that at this juncture, when there hasn't even been a real investigation, no luminol was used. I would like to point out that no fingerprints were taken.

Her blood was smeared along the kitchen cabinets. She was found sitting up in the kitchen floor, legs in the kitchen floor, back against the cabinets. And there was blood smeared behind her as if she had been slammed against the cabinets and then landed where she was sitting. This is devastating to the investigation. There's something called, that we call, the wrong way blood. When fire and PD got there, blood was dried, Megan.

She's sitting up, going horizontally across her face. Impossible if you believe in Sir Isaac Newton findings in gravity. The blood would have gone like that, right? Straight down. It was dried this way, which proves at some point she had been lying that way for the blood to dry and then propped up, which is staging of the same. What I'm saying right now, all I want is an independent investigation. I'm not ready to point a finger at anybody, nobody. Yeah, sure. I can speculate, but I believe that that would hurt the investigation because what if down the line is somebody else and the state will be haunted

by speculation. So I think what we need right now is this case to be reopened for an independent investigation. You just touched the tip of the iceberg. There's the wrong way blood. There are signs of strangulation. You and I discussed the criminal statistics, the method and assessment of homicide and suicide. It is highly unlikely, A, for a female to kill herself and destroy anything around the face and the head. She might poison herself. She might OD. She might jump out a window. She might use carbon monoxide, you know, in a car or an oven, gas. But it's highly unlikely she would stab herself. Now, in the rare event a female does stab herself. Through her clothing. Right. It wouldn't be 20 times. When the fire department got there, Megan, they said she would have to be double or triple jointed to stab herself in the back that many times.

In the back. And here is the coup de grace. Here's the topper. I hope you're sitting down. You may need to lay down, Megan, to hear this. Oh, boy. Some of the wounds, according to experts, not me, experts, medical examiners, death investigators, at least one, if not more wounds were administered post-mortem after death, after her heart stopped beating. Why? They did not bleed.

If you're dead and you're lying there and I stab you, it's not going to bleed because your heart's not pumping blood anymore. least one if not two wounds were post-mortem megan it's impossible for this to be suicide now i do not um impugn perjury or nefarious intent on anyone yet i believe the cops got there. They believed they just ate the story. They were told that the door was broken in and maybe it was. I don't know the answer to that yet. I do know by breaking in a door, you destroy evidence if the door was locked or unlocked because the door is now broken down. But they said when they got there that something was wrong when they first got there. But they didn't use luminol. They didn't make any measurements.

I have found out that on the bottom of her shoes, Megan, was covered in blood. If she killed herself, why would that be? I found that clumps of her hair covered in blood were between her legs where she was sitting, according to a rep for the family. None of this equals suicide. I think the cops did a shabby job. The very next day, the apartment manager was asked if the fiance's family could come get items for the funeral. She called the police and asked them, can they? And they went, sure. And she said, well, can I clean the apartment so it can be rented out again?

And they went, sure. And they even gave her a cleaning, a crime cleaning specialist. She sensed something was wrong. And she videoed the apartment before and after the cleaning, which is kind of a way to preserve evidence. And guess what? The police lost the video. I mean, you know, what else could they possibly do wrong? And I think in a bid to cover up their mistakes, they started a lie. Let me, let me take a, take a stab at bad choice of words, but defending the suicide theory. Um, the people who believe it or who want us to believe it say she was on a couple of drugs,

a sleeping medication and an anti-anxiety med. She was seeing a therapist. She, by the way, the therapist said she did not complain about the fiance at all. They seem to have a loving relationship for what it's worth. And she had these, I guess, commonly prescribed medications to help her sleep and to help with her anxiety and the reported side effects. They always list the side effects and they, they tend to include suicidality, you know, 99.99% of the cases, it, they don't cause that, but the drug manufacturers put it on there as one of the possible risks. And so the theory is that though she seemed happy and she seemed maybe a little anxious, but net a happy person, something flipped. And many of those wounds were superficial, like a testing, which could happen with somebody who's

like seeing what it would feel like and working up the nerve to actually do it. And there was some question about whether I saw the testimony by that one expert saying, yeah, those wounds didn't bleed and therefore they were probably committed post-mortem. But then there was something on the other side saying she, the same woman saying, but I can't be totally sure on that either, to be honest. So that's the argument that she took her own life. And of course that she was in a locked apartment by herself. There was only one other way out. There was that front door that was locked with a latch from the inside. And there's only one other way out, which was the, the deck leading off their patio, but it was a snowstorm and the snow was totally preserved and on foot marked at all. So the cops reasonably did not believe anybody had come in or gotten out from there. So it had to be. I will address each of the points you raised in order that you raised them.

Number one, sleeping meds and anti-anxiety meds. She had just seen her therapist. Why was she seeing a therapist? She was seeing Dr. Ellen Berman because shortly before her murder, she had called her parents, Josh and Sandy, and asked to move home, to move out of the apartment she shared with her fiance, quit her job, and move home. She was teaching first graders. She had always loved her job and indicated nothing otherwise. Her father advised her, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't quit your job in the middle of the year.

Finish out the term. And then, if you want to, then quit your job. Why she wanted to move out of the apartment with Sam remains a mystery. I don't know the answer to that. But I do know that she asked her parents and one of her best friends, Debbie, could she move in with them shortly before her death? Her mother was like, what's wrong? Why do you want to quit your job and move home with us? You know what? Before you do that, before you leave your job, I want you to see a therapist. I'll find you a counselor.

And she did. Dr. Ellen Berman. Berman states specifically that Ellen had anxiety but was not suicidal. Was not suicidal. Hence, the prescription for anti-anxiety pills and sleep meds. She was having trouble sleeping. She, Ellen, spoke to friends concerned about the effects of the anti-anxiety pill. But what effect was she worried about?

Gaining weight before her wedding. That was her concern. The autopsy revealed she had a normal amount of the meds in her there was no OD I would also like to point out that the day of the murder there was a blizzard a nor'easter blew in her first graders had to go home early just before her death it was, why was she calling all these people on her phone? Was she crazy? The family contacted all those numbers. She called every single student's family to make sure the child got home. Each child. Those were the phone calls on her phone. The people contacted. The parents said she was absolutely fine. There was nothing wrong.

So explain to me in the one hour before her murder, she was on the phone making sure her children got home from school. She was perfectly happy and bubbly on the phone. And the 45 minutes it took for Sam to go work out, Sam Goldberg to go work out and come back. That is not enough time. I think a jury would agree for her to form the intent to commit suicide. She was still in the kitchen where she's making a fruit salad for lunch. And while she's supposed to be committing suicide with her right hand, when she was found, she still had a pristine white dishcloth in her left hand. So Megan, you believe in any world she could stab herself 20 times, including to the back of the spine, the top of the head and hold on the other hand with a clean dish towel.

Right. No, that did not happen. The latching of the lock is very interesting because was it the kind of lock that we all have in the hotel rooms, you know with a little chain or was it something more, you know strong Not the chain. It was the kind that you Pull over like that. Mm-hmm. Yep. And the person on the outside can open it like that much. It was one of those now Tests have been done That suggests the door was not broken in. According to others, the door was broken in. But I stand firmly on the forensic evidence.

The door broken or not broken is another can of worms. But just on the physical evidence alone, and I'd like to point out that in the last months the original medical examiner Marlon Osborne reversed and he says this is not a suicide I'm now convinced it's not a suicide so you and I and the rest of the world and all the online haters can hash it apart as much as we want to. But the ME that saw the body and multiple other MEs and medical examiners state it was not suicide. So the original problem was from Marlon Osborne, who after his closed door meeting where the DA got immunity, changed it to suicide. He's reversed. Everyone is in agreement now. It's not suicide. So why is

nothing being done? Why aren't we looking for a killer? Can I ask you a question about the fiance? When he was, because he says he went down to work out, he came back up, the apartment door is latched and he's, you know, saying, hey, you know, he's sending her an increasingly annoyed series of texts inside. And then he says, he went down to the doorman and said, Hey, I'm locked out. She's got the latch closed. And he claims the doorman was like, kind of like, not my problem. You're going to have to break it in if that's what you want, if you want to enter. And that that's what he then did, went up there and, and pushed, pushed it open with his shoulder or his body. Does anybody verify any of that, Nancy? Does the doorman back that up? Did anybody witness the fact that he was

locked out and pacing and trying to figure out what to do for that period of time, maybe like a 30-minute window after workout and before finding her? Well, according to some reports, the doorman is Philip Hanton. He says the fiancé came down and told him he needed to break in the door. And Hanton said, I cannot leave this front desk. I'm in charge of this and I can't go up there. And I'm not going up there. Now according to some reports, the the fiance said he did have a witness that watched him break down the door and suggested it was Philip Hanton. It wasn't Philip Hanton.

And as of now, we have not uncovered any employee or anyone that went with him to watch him break down the door. And do we have evidence that he did in fact go work out? Is that in dispute? I've seen the video of him going into the workout club. It's downstairs, like a workout room. And according to the Greenberg's rep coming out in about 45 minutes. I've looked very carefully at him walking around because he then goes and gets some mail and he's looking at his phone. It looks to me that there is sweat on the back of his shirt, but I can't tell from the black and white video, but I can look at the timing. He goes into the workout room and then comes out. That much I do know. So he comes home, finds her. She wasn't supposed to come home early that day,

but she did because of the blizzard. He's there. He goes and works out 45 minutes, comes back up and she's dead. And she's cold to the touch, according to him in the 911 call. She's already cold in a warm apartment. Now that takes a little bit of time right there for the body temp to go down. But he says she was cold to the touch in a heated apartment in the kitchen. That presents an issue for the medical examiner as to the time of death. Why do I care about the time of death? Because that rules suspects in or out. According to the medical examiner now, this is no longer considered a suicide and what we're waiting on is a local DA to relaunch the investigation. That has not happened. I don't know why. And really, gosh, you've covered so many of these. I cannot trust the Philadelphia

District Attorney's Office because they've already screwed it up once. I can't trust the PA authorities. This has got to be handled by the feds. There's just really no other alternative. They never found the fiance's DNA on the knife. This was a shoddy investigation, no question. But what I read in any event is that his DNA was not found in the knife and that he was not found with blood all over him. I actually would have thought he would have had some blood on him just from that purported attempt at CPR that we heard him go through with the 911 operator. But, you know, again, just because as I look at, I don't understand how it could be anybody else. I suppose there could have been somebody lying in a closet and then they killed her. And then when they ran out of the apartment,

they slammed the door so hard that somehow the latch connected. Maybe that's a possibility. But if you go with the odds and you look at the fiance, it just doesn't make sense to me that he, I don't know, he came back up. She had locked him out. He allegedly broke down the door. He says he locked down, he broke down the door. And at that point, if he did something to her, would the murder have occurred then, Nancy? Is that the, if you're against the fiance in this hypothetical world, would that have been the moment of murder or prior to the workout? I believe at this juncture, speculating as to the identity of the killer will damage the investigation. If you think about what the police did or did not do, I'm not defending anyone or pointing the finger at anyone. I got to get this case reopened. But of course they're going to look at the fiance. But did they-

And the parents think it was the fiance. The parents think she was a domestic abuse victim. And they point to those old bruises that were found, 11 bruises on her body that predated the date of her death. Keep going. Sorry. The police did not determine had there been visitors in the apartment, had there been visitors in the lobby. Was there another access for visitors or intruders to get in? Had there been delivery people? Had she been stalked at school? Did anyone follow her home? Is there video surveillance in the parking lot or in the hallways or in the trash chute areas? Had she had any complaints? Had she had any threats?

I think that the investigation was so bad. I remember a time when I was prosecuting, there was this beautiful young pre-K teacher. Her name was Julie Love. She disappeared. It was assumed that she was murdered. Many people called for the fiancé to be indicted. It was obvious to everyone. He did it. He did it. Listen to this. Years later, years later, like five or six years later, a woman came into the PD, police department, APD, and had been beaten horribly, assault beating. She said it was her boyfriend, Emmanuel Hammonds. I still remember his name.

And she said, hey, hey, hey, I got something else for you. He killed Julie Love. There was no connection between them at all. What really happened? Emmanuel Hammons and some of his friends were driving along, saw her, chased her, raped her, beat her, killed her, threw her body away. And you know what they found of her when they went to where the girlfriend I directed them? They found her glass eye. Nobody even knew she had a glass eye. A glass eye and a bone.

The remains of Julie Love. And the DA, in his wisdom, had been goaded to try and indict the boyfriend. He never did it. Thank goodness. Because someone else killed Julie Love. That is a true story. So I'm very careful about naming a would-be suspect because that's what it looks like now. I don't know what it looks like because the police did not do their job.

So I need all the facts. This has to be reopened. And I don't want to reach a convenient conclusion. Her parents think it was him. But you've got to look at the fiancé, sure. Like the husband, like the ex, like the boyfriend. You always look at those closest to the victim, of course. But here's what he says.

Sam Goldberg. He gave this statement to CNN in 2024. It was his first public statement. He hasn't spoken at all. This is as much as we could find. When Ellen took her own life, 2024 is his first public statement. He hasn't spoken at all. This is as much as we could find. Um, when Ellen took her own life, it left me bewildered. She was a wonderful and kind person who had everything to live for. When she died, a part of me died with her unimaginably in the years that have passed. I've had to endure the unimaginable passing of my future wife and the pathetic and despicable attempts to desecrate my reputation and her

privacy by creating a narrative that embraces lies, distortions, and falsehoods in order to avoid the truth. Mental illness is very real and has many victims. I hope and pray that you never lose someone you love like I did to a terrible disease and then be accused by ignorant and misinformed people of causing her death. If you're really writing a truthful story, dig deeper and please do some good by raising awareness for mental health. Best, S.G. So he obviously believes she was mentally ill and that she took her own life and really hasn't said anything other than that since we heard on that 911 call him saying she stabbed herself, she fell on a knife, one of those two things. I'm aware of that. I believe in light of the fact that the original medical examiner has now stated that this is not a suicide.

There's really no other alternative other than this is a homicide. Wasn't that a weird statement, Nancy, can I ask you? The counter argument to that is that he just came out and did that to settle this case that the parents brought. And he said he withdrew the suicide declaration, but he didn't say homicide. He said something else, which is not, you know, it's kind of weak sauce. And that will not exactly help a new prosecutor say, I want to take this on as a homicide case. There are only a limited number of CODs,

manners, manners of death. And those manners of death are suicide, accident, natural cause, undetermined, and homicide. It's obviously not natural. She didn't die of a heart attack. They've said it's not suicide. Okay? We're running out of things.

Not natural, not suicide. It's clearly not an accident. That leaves two alternatives only. Undetermined and homicide. He says it's not suicide suicide he's not the only one everyone is falling in line now and agreeing it's not suicide so unless everyone else is a medical examiner that has inspected the body and read all the autopsy reports and every scintilla of evidence and know more than all these doctors, then it is

not suicide. It is not accident. It is not natural causes. It's either homicide or undetermined. It's homicide. That's not a leap of faith or logic. So you need the federal DOJ to get involved here. At the time, this is where we are now. And I am not ready to point the finger at him or anybody else until we have the facts. Now, you don't normally hear me say that. Normally, I think I know exactly what happened based on the facts that we've got. Yeah, you're not shy. But the problem here is that we don't have the facts. We don't have them because of the shoddy investigation.

It's got to be started at the beginning, the very beginning with what we've got left. I remember having to restart a murder investigation that was tried when I was in law school. It took all the way up to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals, one step below the U.S. Supreme Court. It landed back in the DA's office because of, by the way, interlocking confessions, interlocking statements. They had to be ruled out and the whole thing had

to be retried, severed, the two defendants separately. And I got it. When I got to the evidence room, Megan, there were two pieces of evidence left, an X-ray, which I couldn't make heads or tails of and didn't know who it belonged to, and a hat that said, kiss my bass. I had to start ground zero and work the case up. Got a conviction, by the way. I mean, he did. Of course you did. The jury did the right thing. And that is what is happening here.

And it's so easy to go, yeah, this means that, that means this. But that is not prudent in pursuing justice in this case. What is prudent right now is that we get an independent investigator. And the only clear-cut path I see, Megan, is a Fed. And, you know, I don't like the Feds either. But there are only hope. There are only hope now. Shapiro is tainted because he's the AG that was embroiled at the beginning,

that washed his hands and turned the other way like Pontius Pilate. That's him. He did nothing. You can't have anyone connected to the earlier ADA's office. In fact, I ran down a then ADA who read the file and was waving the flag, guys, this is not a suicide. This is not a suicide. Everybody knew at the time it wasn't a suicide. So where does that leave Josh and Sandy Greenberg? In a lot of pain. The book is called What Happened to Ellen? An American Miscarriage of Justice. We're going to take a break and be right back with Nancy Grace, who I'm going to ask about another big case in

the news right now, the Brian Kohlberger case, and wait until you hear what the judge just ruled. Stand by. Let's be real. Our modern world can be very toxic. From ultra-processed foods to environmental chemicals, our bodies are under attack every single day. And one of the biggest casualties are digestion. Millions of people suffer with indigestion, bloating, and upset stomach. But here's the good news. We don't have to accept this. Our ancestors had the answer all along. Bitter foods. Bitter herbs and plants have been used for centuries to stimulate digestion, support detoxification, and keep the gut thriving. That's why Just Thrive Digestive Bitters can be a game changer. With a powerful blend of ancient time-tested bitter herbs, Just Thrive says that just one dose before meals wakes up your digestive

system, helping you absorb nutrients better, break down food, and say goodbye to bloating and sluggish digestion. Ditch modern toxins and get back to what our bodies were designed for. Reclaim your gut health with Just Thrive Digestive Bitters, available now at justthrivehealth.com. Use code Megan to save 20% off your first order. That's justthrivehealth.com, promo code Megan. I'm Megan Kelly, host of The Megan Kelly Show on Sirius XM. It's your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations with the most interesting and important political, legal, and cultural figures today. You can catch The Megyn Kelly Show on Triumph, a SiriusXM channel featuring lots of hosts you may know and probably love. Great people like Dr. Laura, Glenn Beck, Nancy Grace, Dave Ramsey, and yours truly, Megyn Kelly. You can stream The Megyn

Kelly Show on SiriusXM at home or anywhere you are. No car required. I do it all the time. I love the SiriusXM app. It has ad-free music coverage of every major sport, comedy, talk, podcast, and more. Subscribe now. Get your first three months for free. Go to SiriusXM.com slash MKShow to subscribe and get three months free. That's SiriusXM.com slash MKShow and get three months free. The Brian Kohlberger case right now is set for trial this August,

finally, after all these years of delay and some strange motions being filed, I think, by the defense so far without success in recent days. First, defense attorneys for Kohlberger asked the judge, Hippler, two Ps, you say it fast, it could be confused for another name, Judge Hippler, was not impressed with the motion to disallow any reference to the bushy eyebrows that his defense attorneys didn't want the roommate's description before she knew who Brian Kohlberger was when she was just describing the intruder. She saw he was wearing a mask, but recognized his bushy eyebrows. The judge has said that will not be barred. That's a matter for cross-examination. Secondly, the defense wanted to bring up that he's on the autism spectrum

in like opening so that it might explain away what they suggested were some of his odd behaviors, perhaps during the hearing or during the trial. And the judge said, you're not bringing that in. You can, if you want to put them on the stand and talk about him being on the spectrum, great, but you can't just offer testimony as the lawyers in order to explain away either his behavior in the court or any other behavior in this case. And they also asked him if they could call an expert to talk about his alleged OCD because they said prosecutors may make got OCD puts all of their garbage in little Ziploc baggies and then has the garbage disposed of in the neighbor's trash. But this is defense attorney Ann Taylor doing whatever she can to zealously represent her client. So what do you

make of, what does all that tell you about where this case is for the defense, first of all? It tells me, Megan, that they're between a rock and hard spot now the judge has ruled that they may not bring in evidence of alleged autism on coberger's behalf in the case in chief this is a death penalty case it is a bifurcated trial trial split in two first there's the guilt innocence phase and if he is found guilty, which I predict he will be, there is in the second phase of the trial, which is the sentencing phase, where the jury will decide whether he gets the death penalty. Now, regarding autism, the defense wanted to bring in their theory that he has autism, although apparently none of the defense experts have

stated thus far that he is autistic or under the spectrum. None of them have said that. They said they wanted to bring it in, as you surmised, because of his odd behavior. What odd behavior, the judge says. I don't see any odd behavior. He just sits there. So therefore that's irrelevant. If it becomes relevant, then I will review your motion again if you choose to renew it. But as of right now, the only way it would be relevant is if they noted quirky or odd behavior when he takes a stand. So if you want to bring it in then, sure, but he'll have to take the stand because just sitting there, I don't see any relevance.

However, if there is a guilty verdict and it goes to sentencing, I believe the judge will relent and bring in, if there is any, any expert that says he is autistic to diminish his capacity to commit a crime. Now, will it diminish his capacity to commit a crime? No, that's a big NO. Why? This guy is a PhD student. He has made stellar grades. He is actually teaching other students. He is not going to be deemed incapable or incompetent to commit a crime. In fact, he was obsessed with committing crimes. You know about the questionnaires he would send violent felons under the guise of studying criminology.

How did you feel right before you did it? How did you pick your victim? How did you make your exit? In other words, how can I get out of this without getting caught? There Between a Rock and a Hard Spot, his, Brian Koberger's DNA is on the knife sheath in the snap button where you put the knife DNA is on the knife sheath in the snap button where you put the knife in and you snap the sheath shut under a dead body. So again, rock and a hard spot. That's where they are. Howard Bloom, who's been all over the reporting

on this case, reports that Kohlberger's mother, Marianne, his reporting is that she's encouraging her son to plead not guilty, notwithstanding all this evidence, and that there might even be a movement afoot by Kohlberger's defense attorneys to somehow rest the decision to stay in the not guilty camp away from Marianne and Brian as we get to the trial and somehow convince this judge to let them enter into some sort of a plea bargain negotiation with the prosecution that Brian Kohlberger is apparently not capable potentially of making this decision, that the mother's overly influential, and that Ann Taylor, as a defense attorney, probably knows better about what's going to happen at this trial. There's no world in which Ann

Taylor can cut a deal for him without his consent, right? No world. No world. As far as a guilty or not guilty, no. As far as a not guilty by reason of insanity, which he's not insane, guilty but mentally ill, he's not mentally ill. There's no way that she can usurp his ability to enter a plea, either guilty or not guilty, or an Alford, which is I accept my sentence, but I'm not going to say I did it. I don't know, frankly, if the state would even go along with a guilty plea for life without parole. I'm not sure that they would do that. They are hell bent on seeking the death penalty and he's not going to plead guilty to the death penalty. To me, that means you're going to trial. Now, there is a way that the judge could enter a blind plea,

which is there's no recommendation by the state, but I don't think they would do that either because what if the judge said, okay, yeah, I'll take your guilty plea. You're getting the death penalty. So I don't think there's going to be a blind plea. Ann Taylor cannot plead in his behalf without his consent. So with the mother trying to convince him to stick with the not guilty, according to Bloom, who's written a book about the case, that is undue influence on the son, where the defense attorney wants to enter a guilty plea. That's what he's saying. What he's saying is we're on our way to a trial, which Nancy will be all over

and we're going to cover a lot too. Great to see you. Buy the book, What Happened to Ellen? out today and support the Center for Missing and Exploited Children. Nancy, thank you. We're back tomorrow. We'll see you all then. Thanks for listening to The Megyn Kelly Show.

No BS, no agenda, and no fear.