The Megyn Kelly Show - Tulsi Gabbard on How Washington Really Works, Clashing with Clinton and Kamala, And Her Political Future | Ep. 69

Episode Date: February 26, 2021

Megyn Kelly is joined by Tulsi Gabbard, former Congresswoman and host of the forthcoming podcast, "This Is Tulsi Gabbard," to discuss what she learned when she got to Washington D.C., the obsession in D.C. with winning at all costs, what she learned when she crossed The Clintons, her own #MeToo experience in the military, her friendship with former Rep. Trey Gowdy and others in Congress, her presidential run in 2020 and clashes with VP Kamala Harris, the media response to her campaign, what she thinks of Trump and AOC, whether she'll run again for president (and if she'd do so on a bipartisan ticket) and more.Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms:Twitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShowFind out more information at:https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations. Hey everyone, it's Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Today we're excited because we have Tulsi Gabbard. She's here by popular demand, not just yours, but mine too. And we're excited because she, well, she said yes, I think, because she's got something exciting to promote, which is she is launching her own podcast. And it's going to be, this is Tulsi Gabbard podcast. You're going to want to check that out. But we talk about it all, man. She gives us the inside dish on Nancy Pelosi, on what it's like

when, what it was like when she got to Washington, on the bizarre and really unfortunate instructions she was given as soon as she got there, when it came to any sort of working across the aisle with Republicans. Some stuff with Kamala Harris. We're going to get into all of it. I think you're going to enjoy this exchange because this is sort of like a conversation that needed to happen. She and I have both been wanting it to happen for a long time and it didn't disappoint. So stay tuned for her in just one second. But first, let's talk about, yes, masks. You know, we're stuck with them for some time. And if you got to wear one, which right now you do, get yours from Armrest USA. This is a great company. It's an American company and they've got our back while we need to wear this stuff. These masks are American-made,

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That way you know you'll be protected. So go to realmasksonly.com and enter code MK for a 15% discount on your first order of Armbrust USA masks. That's realmasksonly.com and use promo code MK for 15% off your very first order. And now Tulsi Gabbard. Tulsi, how are you? Aloha, Megan. I'm good. How are you? Aloha. I'm so good. I'm so happy to be speaking to you. Likewise. I've been looking forward to this. I've been listening to a lot of your podcasts. And I think if I'm remembering correctly, I've been I was on your show a couple of times back when you're at Fox. So it's great to reconnect. Yeah, likewise. You know, I, of course, have been watching you for years, and and with great

interest over the past couple of years. And even just in reading up for this moment, this is what I walked away with. This is a woman who is an independent thinker who doesn't like people trying to control her. And I thought, I'm home. You can relate, huh? Yes, you do. I think that's a very accurate assessment. I'd like to say that this is the way I've always been, but especially I think coming through working within the political world, you know, where there are so many different pressures, whether it's amongst, you know, leaders in Congress and the media and, you know, pick your pressure point. Yeah, I think for myself, shock, right? And Washington doesn't like that. No, no. I think that started to become clear very quickly when, you know, I first got elected to Congress in 2012, was sworn in in early 2013. And, you know, I think for the Democratic Party, I kind of checked a lot of the boxes. You know, she's a woman, she's a woman of color,

she's a veteran, she's this, she's that. And, you know, I was kind of the cool kid at school for a while and the rising star and all of these different things until I actually started to, you know, once they started listening to what I was saying and understanding like, hey, I'm not here just to punch the ticket and be a puppet in someone else's hands. You know, I'm here to do a job, to serve my constituents in Hawaii, to serve the people of our country and speak the truth and fight for what's right, whether that is in line with really care about being the cool kids at school, who care about the popularity and the acceptance and all the other stuff, instead of caring about what actually matters most, which is, you know, what every member of Congress has been sent there to do, to serve. That's so gross. You know, I can almost see Nancy Pelosi saying, oh, good, she's a combat veteran. She knows how to take orders. She'll do as told when I get her in here. So, you know, I'll praise her.

I'll say things like she's an emerging star and I'll help her become, you know, I think you were the number two person on the DNC shortly after you got elected. But then as soon as they realize, oh, wait, she's asked, I got a phone call just a few weeks after being sworn in as a member of Congress asking, you know, what, what would your answer be if you were asked to serve as vice chair of the DNC? I'm like, what is, what is that? You know, what is, what is the job? What are you, what are you actually asking me to do? And, and, and that's, and I think that's really what it came down to was like, okay, well, you're this, you're this, you're this, you fit all these different categories. And, and, you know, it was kind of the motivation, I think, for asking me to serve in that job. And I

accepted in the hopes that I could actually do something to help fix the process and provide transparency, fairness, and openness to voters to be able to make the best informed decisions. And so I did that for a little while. You know, it reminds me just the other night we watched, it's an older movie, but we just watched it because it was on The Firm. You know, I don't know if you ever read that John Grisham book. It's a favorite. Yeah. Right. So we were watching it stars Tom Cruise and, um, it's like the star recruit comes into the organization, has all these trappings thrown at him. Um, everything looks, you know, white shoe and red leather and, you know, wow, this is like next big phase of my career. And then in that case, spoiler alert, he finds out he's surrounded by a bunch of criminals and that his life is never that happened in the book, but certainly if you Sanders and Hillary Clinton as a soldier and as a veteran. I had deployed twice to the Middle East. It was obviously at a very personal level, incredibly important to me that voters be best informed about their foreign policy records and

what kind of commander in chief they would be, you know, what kind of judgment they would exercise. And, uh, I saw that in that, in that primary election, there was very, very little attention, if any, being placed on that issue and that question by the media and by the democratic party and the debates and whatnot. And so, you know, I resigned as vice chair in order to endorse Bernie Sanders specifically around this issue of difference between the two of them in that Hillary Clinton is, you know, she's got a strong track record of being a war hawk and interventionist. And her direct actions have gotten us into a lot of wars that have been counterproductive both to our national security, but but also interest of humanity and peace.

Whereas, you know, Bernie Sanders leans leans more on the non-interventionist side. So I resigned so that I could actually speak out on these issues and bring their differences to the forefront so that voters could make a better informed decision for themselves. But I'll never forget, I announced that decision on Meet the Press on Sunday morning, and then on Monday went back to work in Congress. And just the look on the faces of my colleagues who were coming and they're like, you're giving me hugs. And they were like, Tulsi, I hope you realize what you just did. The Clintons keep a list. They will never forgive you. Hillary Clinton will be elected president. And good luck because you have just written your political kind of, this is a political death wish. And some of this was coming from people who had endorsed President Obama very early in 2008 and had directly experienced many years of trying to get off of the Clinton shit list, for lack of a better word. And so it was, you know, I chuckled to myself as all of these people were coming to me so concerned about my future. And unfortunately, only focused on the

politics of it, you know, whether what they were saying was true or not, was to me not the issue was like, hey, listen, listen to what I'm saying here, that we have a really important decision. All of us as Americans about, you know, who we're going to choose to serve as our commander in chief and what kind of decisions they're going to make and the impacts that that will have on the lives of my brothers and sisters in uniform, the lives of the American people, the lives of people in other countries. And that's the real issue that you should be focusing on. But but, you know, it wasn't it was it was about kind of those those political consequences. Don't cross the Clintons. Exactly. Exactly. I even there was there was an MSNBC reporter who I did an interview at some point after that. And they're like, aren't you afraid of what the Clintons will do to you?

Because MSNBC, they asked me that. Like we are, you know, it's because Debbie Wasserman Schultz, who is the chair of the DNC when you were vice chair, is a Clinton person. She always has been. She did a very poor job of hiding that when she was supposed to be neutral, running that whole debate process before we knew Hillary would officially be the nominee. And even before you resigned to sort of say what you wanted to say about Bernie, etc., we found out through WikiLeaks, which was one of the fun revelations of the WikiLeaks dump that you didn't have anything to do with, but that you had privately written her a note saying, you're not being neutral. Like we're in a position where

we're supposed to be helping Democrats decide who their nominee is going to be. And you've got your thumb on the scale. This is only two years into your stint as a congresswoman and as vice chair on this committee. That took guts. Was that was that at all scary? Because this is before you did the um, this, this tilting of the scales. And I think one of those emails that got released or was discovered in that WikiLeaks dump was an email from, um, a couple of guys who were CAA agents. And it was an email to me that basically threatened me for my support of an endorsement of Bernie Sanders and that they would never do anything again to support me and that they regretted ever trying to fundraise for me. Just all of these different things. And it was not a very veiled threat. But the thing that that was interesting was that I obviously got that email and and responded to them. But the WikiLeaks showed that they forwarded that email to John Podesta with a line that says hammer dropped. And it was, you know, again, connections, consequences. connections consequences and were they hillary's agents they i honestly don't know the answer to that but one of them michael kivas was his name uh he's he's extremely well known to i i yeah i

mean he's very tight with her i've heard he's kind of like president bill clinton's son he never had is what i'm told so yeah i know i know they're tight. I knew him a bit when I was at CAA and he was extremely tight with the Clintons. It doesn't surprise me. I mean, that language and putting it in writing does surprise me. I was just saying this after a different agency, UTA canceled Gina Carano for a nothing, a nothing perceived sin. How disgusting these agencies are. God, they make my stomach turn. I'm sorry, but there are so many sleazy people in these agencies that I would just say to you and anybody else listening,

just get a good lawyer to represent you. I've got the greatest, by the way, if you need a recommendation, I've got the greatest lawyer on earth. I'll take you up on that. He's awesome. He's a protector and he's a, he's just, he's a defender of women. I mean, he's represented me. He represented Gabrielle Union in her fight against ABC or NBC. I'm sure he'd love to represent you, too. But you need a fighter who really does have your best interests at heart. And these agencies only care about themselves. That's I digress. But that's disgusting. And I'm sure they'll come back unbended knee now that you're

launching a podcast. And let's face it, Hillary Clinton's not going anywhere, right? So you mark my words, it's only a matter of time before somebody, Kivas or somebody else comes back and says, hi, hi, how are you? Love to be in business with you. That's one of the interesting things that I've seen. I was having a conversation with a friend of mine yesterday who is kind of going through a little bit of cancellation himself. But I was just saying, look, you learn through these experiences, as I have through different phases, especially of my political life, who's real and who's fake and who's sincere, whether it's in their friendship or support or, you know, being there for you and you for them versus those who really are just, you know, put your finger to the wind and at the closest sign of trouble,'m really, really proud of her. I just met her personally recently through a Zoom call, of course. But just a couple, like a few weeks before this whole thing broke, where she was fired by Disney.

And I just, I'm really proud of the strength and the courage and the resilience that she has shown in the midst of being canceled in a very, very public way that impacts her, you know, her livelihood. And she's not she's not sitting back and taking it or cowering or trying to backtrack or do anything that unfortunately, we see happen too often. I know, it's, I mean, it's traumatic. I sent her a note to after the whole thing is just having been through that myself, I know it's traumatic. And one of my biggest takeaways is, and you know, my audience has heard me say this before, and I'm sure you know this from being in politics, the people who want to believe bad things about you are going to believe them. And the people who don't require no convincing, you know, it's like, it's almost

a war you don't have to fight. I heard a saying one time about apologizing for your kids on an airplane, saying the people who get it require no apology and the people who don't get it will never be assuaged anyway. So don't worry about it. But there is a collection of people. It's not just women, but there's certainly a lot of strong women, strong, independent minded women, I think, gathering in this sort of circle of other, right? Of just like other not going along with party lines one way or another. And it's growing, not just in number, but in strength in like a good way, I think.

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's, that's true. And it was Meghan McCain who introduced me to Gina. And it was that. It was like, hey, you know, we can agree on some things, disagree on other things. None of that really matters. Let's stand together and just support each other as being, you know, women who are standing up and willing to speak the truth, regardless of the fire or the consequences that may come our way. And it's encouraging to see, and especially for those like you and others who have such an incredible platform, you know, I think it inspires other people, men and women, from across the political spectrum, ideological spectrum to say, hey, you know, we, we too can speak up, you know, that, that there is, um, there is strength and, and there is power in standing up against this cancel culture and these attacks on our, our free speech, our fundamental right to free speech. And it's incredible that this fundamental pillar of our democracy and our country is so heavily under attack from all sectors of power. And really, people say, hey, well, what do I do?

Keep speaking. Keep standing up, you know, your real feelings, cower. Exactly. Exactly. There is a market for reason. It's really, it's like the sane and the insane, the reasonable and the unreasonable, the tolerant and the intolerant. It isn't a left or right thing. It's about those other things. And like there's more on our side. There's more people in the field of reason. And like, there's more on our side. There's, there are more people in the field of reason. And I think it's, they are scared, but it's refreshing for them in a way it was refreshing for me before I launched this show to listen to people doing it, saying it, living it. And I know, I mean, you've been living it publicly. You'll, you'll be loving it when you're doing it on your podcast, too. But just to put some meat on those bones, we talked about how you sort of bucked the party and were pushing back on old Debbie when she was running the DNC.

And I read at the time you said you told The New York Times because you were kind of saying, why are we only having six debates to figure out who the Democratic nominee is going to be? You know, we last go around. We had 26. And the time before that, we had 15. So what are we doing? And of course, that was Debbie and others trying to protect Hillary, who is not so good in the debates. And you said to the Times at the time, they banned me. They banned me from going to the other debates. I didn't know I'd be relinquishing my free speech in coming to this job and not bending the knee. Exactly. Exactly. It was it was and that was kind of the the irony about that whole situation, how it played out was not only were the debates limited to those six and they were on terrible, terrible days where viewership was likely to be very low. But she also and this was a unilateral decision.

There was no discussion with the other officers, the DNC or anything. You know, Donna Brazil, the other officers, all of us were caught off guard when we learned about this through a press release. But not only was it limited, but she instituted this rule that said if any of the candidates participate in a non-DNC sanctioned event, debate, or forum where you have more than one candidate on the stage at any time, then they are banned from all future DNC sanctioned events. So this punitive measure put in place essentially to punish candidates from seeking opportunities to go and connect with voters, to talk about real issues in a substantive way. And especially in a way that, you know, the way these debates are set up, and you know very well from having moderated them,

you know, what does a voter really get from a 60-second response to a question? And how they're really set up for, you know, this reality TV. And so my raising this issue as a vice chair of the DNC, I raised it internally first. There was no room for any constructive dialogue around this. The decision was made and that was it. And so I raised it publicly because I felt so strongly about how counter to a strong and vibrant democracy this decision was. And then got a message from kind of her, Debbie's chief of staff to my chief of staff, basically saying like, hey, if Tulsi's going to keep up like this and publicly criticizing these decisions, she really shouldn't come to, this was right before the very first Democratic primary.

She really shouldn't come to, I think it was Vegas, for the debate. And, you know, tickets had been purchased. Like it was, you know, the whole thing. I was going to go and sit in the crowd. And, you know, my speaking up was, I guess, a hair too far for them and and god forbid that there be discussion around how the dnc is is running what was supposed to be a neutral primary and frankly having gone through a primary myself now in 2020 i will tell you things have have not gotten better if anything they've gotten worse i love how your response to that was to go tell the new york times

it's like i'm sorry but I'm not going to be controlled by you. I'm just not like, no, my response to your saying I should stop speaking out about the shitty way in which this is being run is to go tell the New York Times you're even shittier than I thought. Speak out more. I've never done well with people who try to threaten me. Right? I know me neither. Or just tell me that I can't. I mean, it just makes me want to do it 10 times more, even if I wasn't that committed to it initially. Once you tell me that I can't do it, it's like, all right, now we're going to go. So I can see the bloom coming off the rose here between you and the party. You can start to see how it starts to

chip away a bit. Had you seen, let's just back up a little, because I am curious, when you first got there, you're young, it was 2013, right? So that's seven or eight years ago. So you're 32 around there? Yeah. I was 31, turning 32 in April of 2013. So you must be somewhat wide-eyed. I realize you were a combat veteran and had served two tours of duty over in Iraq, but let's put that to the side for a second and say, okay, this is a new battlefield. Did you arrive optimistic, hopeful? Describe your attitude when you first got there? Well, I had worked as a legislative aid for one of Hawaii's U.S. senators, Senator Daniel Akaka, back between both of my Middle East deployments, 2006 to 2008 time frame. And he was the chair of the Veterans Affairs Committee at the time. And so they asked if I would come and work with him on issues related to Veterans Affairs. And I worked with him on other issues, energy and natural resources. And it was that was my first real exposure to Washington as a staffer. And it was it was interesting to kind of see the dynamic there and to see the dynamic in the Senate at that time.

So I wasn't coming in completely fresh. I had a perspective. But coming in at the time that I did, you know, fast forward to 2013, I very quickly saw how much more partisan the environment was then than when I was there working as a member of his staff. You know, I came in with a very clear sense of purpose. You know, I ran for Congress because coming out of both of those deployments to the Middle East, I wanted to find a way to be in a position where I could actually influence policy as it relates to the military, as it relates to foreign policy, the issues of war and peace, rather than just being on the receiving end of those decisions made by those in power. I wanted to take those experiences that I had had to actually influence

those decisions. And that was one of the main reasons I ran for Congress and understanding the responsibility and carrying that responsibility with me in my heart every day of my brothers and sisters in uniform and who I was there to serve. So while, uh, that, that was my focus going in and going in noting that, you know, yeah, I'm Democrat elected from Hawaii there to serve my, all of my constituents and all of the American people, regardless of political party and to do my best, um, to make those decisions that would best serve the American people in our country. And so, you know, it was it was a bit of a shock to me within, I would say, the first week of being in Washington, even prior to being sworn in. You know, they bring all the members of Congress in for orientation and, you know, ethics briefings and all kinds of stuff. And very quickly, within a few days, this group of 84 members of Congress that were just elected were separated. And we spent a few

days together. And it was great to get to know each other, Republicans and Democrats. We got to know each other's families a little bit and learn more about each other. And it was amazing until we were separated into camps. You know, Democrats went here, started meeting in different places. Republicans met in different places. And very directly, the narrative and the directive rather was kind of set from the leadership that, hey, this is about winning the next election. And, you know, for example, we don't want you working with Republicans too much or specific Republicans who we have targets on, because if you give them a bipartisan win, then it makes them look better and more likely they'll be able to win in the

next election. You know, if you've got bills that are coming before you to vote on and, you know, if you've got a Democrat bill and a Republican bill. And, you know, if you've got a Democrat bill and a Republican bill that are, you know, virtually identical, you know, you vote yes on the Democrat bill and vote no on the Republican bill. And, and just the, the hard partisanship line was set from the get-go like, Hey, this is our team. That's their team. We're the bad guys. You don't help the quote unquote enemy. And that was very a stark confrontation at the heart of what is so wrong and broken with Washington now and has been but is getting worse, is the motivation behind the decisions that are being made. Everything from what legislation is allowed to come to the House floor, whose bills are pushed forward and whose aren't the consequences of, of having well-intentioned members of Congress from both parties who do want

to work together, who do want to find bipartisan solutions that will actually fix real problems. If, if that is not in line with what the party wants, then, then you have threats of like, if you do this, you know,

we're not gonna, we're not gonna back you up with any money or support in your reelection. If you do this, you know, you're not going to get the committee you want or, you know, you'll get yanked off the committee that you're on. And you are definitely not going to be prom queen. Right. Exactly. That's really what it comes down to if we're being serious. Seriously. And you'll be shocked. No, it is. It is. It's like high school. school is this pelosi maneuvering like let's just go back to that time but at that time was it pelosi maneuvering on the dem side and can't remember who the um house leader was on the republican speaker it was speaker boehner at the time okay it was speaker

when i got elected and so we the were in the minority, Republicans had the majority. And so, yeah, I mean, Pelosi was the minority leader at the time and she, she's been in leadership on the Democrat side since I got elected. But I think, I think, you know, I've, I've worked with her on different issues. She has been very respectful of my service in the military and, and being a veteran. Um, I, you know, I, I asked her for help when we were dealing with some COVID issues out here in Hawaii and she was very helpful with that. But I think the issue with her leadership and the team around her is the same issue that I have with the leadership overall from both parties, which is no matter kind of the rhetoric that comes out, really what it all boils down to is about political power and winning, getting those political wins without really any serious

regard to the consequences of those decisions. We can feel it. Right, exactly. And ultimately, what's the cost? The cost is the negative consequence on the American people who struggle or suffer as a result of their needs being ignored and dismissed. More with Tulsi in just one second. But first, do you hate doing your taxes? And if you don't, why don't you? What are you doing that makes it? I mean, everyone hates doing them, right? There are a lot of people out there who would actually love to do them for you, but I'm not talking about the tax specialists that we usually pay to help us. I'm talking about cyber criminals and identity thieves that are lurking on the internet, especially during tax season when your personal info like your name, your social security number, and so on may be emailed and shared more than usual. Criminals can steal information from your devices and sell it on the dark web or use it to commit other crimes,

even years down the road. So you put it in an email, you think you're safe if you don't immediately get nabbed by a criminal. You know, you find your information being misused. Wrong. Tax season is actually a great time to be a cyber criminal in case you were thinking about going into it. But it's also the best time to help protect yourself by using Norton 360 with LifeLock. This tax season, opt into cyber safety. Help protect against cyber criminals. You don't want these guys stealing the info shared on your devices or spying on you over Wi-Fi. That's creepy. Or stealing your identity. No one can prevent every cyber crime or identity theft or monitor every single transaction, but don't let those cyber criminals make taxis an extra taxing. Save 25% or more off your first year of Norton 360 with LifeLock at norton.com slash mk.

That's 25% off at norton.com slash mk. because I can hear the beautiful birds tweeting behind you. And here on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, I think somebody just got shot outside the window and the sirens are coming. It's very I'd take you to the beach with me if I could, but that might be a little distracting for both of us. I would love to go. Trust me. I mean, having our the place we go is our place on the Jersey Shore. And while my husband is like you, he jumps right in the ocean as soon as we get there. The beaches aren't quite the same. That was when I was in D.C. working, working for Senator Akaka. I couldn't and I've heard you talk about this in I think it was with Tim Dillon. You were talking about your first experiences kind of in the social scene in DC and kind of how gross it is. So I stayed away from it

at all costs. And if it was warm outside, I was either driving to Virginia Beach, the Jersey Shore, somewhere I was going to the ocean wherever I possibly could. Perfect, perfectly smart decision now speaking of akaka who you worked for back in 06 so it was his seat that maizey hirono got and then yeah she had been the congresswoman from hawaii and you you took that seat um can i ask you about her because i i'll just be honest she seems like a nutcase um she she's come out and said men should be presumed guilty when they get accused in a Me Too situation. Presumed guilty. Hello. She walked out of an Antifa hearing rather than answer Ted Cruz's question of whether, you know, she's the one who scolded Amy Coney Barrett for using the term sexual preference, you know, saying it's not a preference, it's inborn, which is like, I mean, now who can keep track? Like the things change, like the ideology on this, the messaging. But anyway, she wanted an apology from Amy Coney Barrett for saying sexual preference.

And then a reporter got in her face and said, well, should Biden apologize for saying sexual preference? Because he said that just a couple of ago and i wrote down the exchanges i just thought it was so crazy she said well he isn't up for a spot in the supreme court reporter uh no he's he's up for a spot in the white house her response oh stop it the world is in flames like she just seems like a nutcase she she is she is a partisan politician and and I think those examples that you cite and the contradictions are the examples that prove the point of the double standard and the hypocrisy that we see too often, where you have one standard for people who you like or people who are on your team, and the complete opposite standard for those who you don't like or don't agree with or who are not on your team. And, you know, it, it, it boggles my mind to see whether it's her or other politicians in Washington constantly doing this, having this, this very blatant double standard. And to me, the most offensive thing about that is it's based on this assumption

that the American people are so stupid that they can't see it, that they can't see the double standard that they're pushing forward and how blatantly partisan their actions and their words are. There was one other situation where I think it was Senator Hirono as well as Senator Harris who in questioning another court nominee under President Trump, but I think you saw some of the same with Amy Coney Barrett as well, this very blatant religious bigotry. And it caused it caused some waves here in Hawaii and and and also in some national press when I pointed out very publicly how unconstitutional and dangerous their line of questioning was in both of those cases in really making the point that there should be some kind of religious test for someone to serve in our government, which again is directly undermining and counter to our constitution that says there shall be no religious test. And the dangerous consequences of that on

our society when you have united states senators who are you know essentially weaponizing religion for their own selfish gain and and their own political gain um you know it, it points to a deeper kind of, uh, corruption and, and ultimately a lack of, a lack of appreciation by our elected leaders for our constitution, which we're seeing more and more being pushed to the forefront now where they're, because they don't understand it or care for our constitution, they're so easily, um, taking actions or setting policies or saying things that act really, truly undermine, undermine our constitutional rights. And these in inalienable rights that have been granted to us by our creator that cannot be taken away by any, any person. You know, it's like, I'm, I'm used to politicians saying what they want to say to sort of feed their side. But I would say usually they try to stay at least within the bounds of

the law. Like I see somebody like Ted Cruz. He's an operator, obviously, but he also understands constitutional law. And I see him trying to stay within the bounds, though, while being a partisan for someone to come out and say all men should be presumed guilty. And then, of course, crickets when Joe Biden got accused by Tara Reid, you know, of a sexual assault in the halls of crickets, right? Even today, we're talking about Andrew Cuomo. Now he has an accuser who's finally gone on the record. This woman said she'd been harassed by him a couple of months ago. She wasn't ready to tell her story. And now she's come out and she's telling it. And it's a, you know, he stopped me, shoved his tongue down my throat.

It's pretty blatant. Wow. Hello, Maisie. Do you think Andrew Cuomo should be? Like, it's just, that's what killed the Me Too movement. The hypocrisy when we got to, you know, Brett Kavanaugh, which suddenly was just, all women must be believed. They must be believed. They must

be believed. And you saw it get weaponized against him. I feel like going partisan, that knee jerk instinct to go partisan and nuts, like throw away the Constitution. It explains a lot of what we see in Washington. Yes, completely. And in that specific example of the Me Too movement, which is one of many examples that prove your point here, is who suffers as a result of that? you know, cast aside or ignored and have been looking for ways to pursue justice, now get caught up in this broader partisanship of exactly what you said. Well, you know, all men should be presumed guilty, you know, believe all women, you know, all men should be presumed guilty. Uh, you know, believe all women, uh, you know, these are very, very serious, serious and, and often heartbreaking situations that, that must be taken seriously. And for, for those who frankly, both men and women who have been victims of this kind of assault and victims to predators.

They're the ones who lose the most because of this. Have you ever found yourself on the receiving end of a Me Too type situation? Nothing as serious as many of those who really have very serious situations of assault. Look, in the military and in politics, there's been situations that maybe have been a little bit uncomfortable. And there was one particularly in the military where a fellow soldier was making some very unwelcome kind of physical advances. And it was somebody that I worked with every day. And I made clear that those advances were unwelcome and they continued.

So I reported it to my commander and credit to him. He took immediate action in making it so that I was no longer working with this person. And this person was not going to be in a position where anyone else may be subject to those unwelcome kinds of advances. And to me, that was sufficient. That was exactly what should happen in those kinds of situations. But again, I mean, I... Was it superior or somebody equally positioned? A peer. A peer, okay. But just wasn't going to sort of take no for an answer.

Yeah, pretty much. You know, it happens everywhere. There's no industry that doesn't get affected by it. And, you know, sometimes as you say, it's not always a sexual thing. I mean, I look at you, I see a beautiful woman, a strong woman. You have a good voice. You have a nice presence. Plus you're tough. You know, you served in the military. I know you got three brothers. I think all that probably helped you. But it can definitely, I don't know, lead people to treat you a different way. And I think Congress is pretty disgusting anyway. I don't know. I think you tell me, no offense, but I do think a lot of the people who are attracted to Congress have outsized egos and really don't have the intellect to back it up. So you're not one of them. But I think, you know, if you find maybe it was an interview, I don't really remember, but they're like, so how's it going? Are you fitting in yet? And my immediate response is like, no, and I never want to fit in here. No, thank God. For that reason. It's just, you know, the moment you start fitting in, in a place like Washington, DC, where it is such a

bubble that is so far removed from the reality of the everyday lives of of people, whether it's, you know, people here in Hawaii or people in any part of the country country, then, you know, you know, you've taken a wrong turn and you care about you care about the wrong thing. So yeah, I made it a point to get out and get back home as much as possible. My husband, he's not a fan of Washington DC at all. What's his story? He's a cinematographer and loves to surf like I do. Grew here born in born in New Zealand family moved to Hawaii when he was young and so spent his life growing up out here but he's never he's never been interested in any any of the political trappings whatsoever I've asked him like hey we got this invitation to go to a congressional spouses event and he says please do not make me go. Oh my God. And then you're like, how would you like to be the second gentleman? He's like, that was the conversation. Trust me.

And the immediate answer to that was not yes at all. Right. Right. Who's right. If your last name isn't Clinton, I think most people would think, why do I want to do that? want the title and the glitter and the unfortunate pedestal that politicians are often put on, especially in Washington, versus those who cringe at all of that, but go through the campaigning and go through all of the things that are required to operate in the political world because of this sense of higher purpose and mission of service and kind of endure the other stuff that you have to endure in order to be able to actually become friends with and work with some of those folks in Washington. But unfortunately, I would say it's not the prevailing motivation. and therefore so easily kind of put in a position of kowtowing to the wishes of those in leadership or the most powerful. And that's really where voters, that's where we get the decision of, like, how do we change this, I think, is the next logical question. And this is where, you know, I think we as voters can do more to make those decisions about what kind of

people and what kind of leaders we're sending to Washington. So who's the worst one? Who's your least favorite lawmaker? You know, I don't, I don't, like, there's no single name. There's no single name that comes to mind at all. I've really, does it rhyme with Daisy? No, no, no. You know, I, I want to tell you something kind of cool that I did first, first, um, one of the first things I did when I went to Congress in as a way to try to break through the partisanship, uh, and actually build relationships. Cause there's so much vilification and kind of a dehumanizing that happens there that makes it easier to, you know, draw the line and, and, um, uh, kind of in, in sight, the divisiveness and, and, and polarization that we see.

And, and it's easier to do when you don't see other people as like people who also have families and lives. And so one of the things, the first things that I did was, you know, in Hawaii, we like to give these gifts of aloha. And I thought, what can I do to reach out to my new colleagues? Because I didn't really know anybody there and wanted to find a way to introduce myself so that I could work with them. And so my mom makes this incredible macadamia nut toffee, which I'll have to send you some. It's, it's amazing. Those are two of my favorite things on earth. Really?

Yes. What kind of a genius thought to combine them? I don't know. But she's got this, she's got this secret family recipe. I don't even have it, but I called her from DC and I said, Mom, I have an idea. Would you help me by making 434 boxes of your toffee for every single member of Congress? And, you know, she's a wonderful, obviously, she's my mom. She's amazing. And, you know, raised five boys or five kids with my dad. And she's like, yeah, of course.

I think that's a great idea. And I said, okay, awesome. Thank you. I have one more favor to ask on top of that. She's like, yeah. Can you make another 435 bigger boxes of toffee for the staff of every member of Congress? Wow.

And she paused. There was a very pregnant pause in the phone. She's like, honey, honey yes i will do it but it's gonna take a little bit longer thank you so much no it was amazing and so she was in hawaii and she you know she's like stirring two pots of toffee at the same time pouring it chopping the mac nuts my dad self-appointed as the quality control testing guy, tasted a little piece out of every pan. And as they were doing that, I just started handwriting short personal notes to introduce myself to all of my colleagues, Democrats and

Republicans, and saying, I really look forward to serving with you. And the incredible thing, Megan, was that as we started to deliver these little gifts of aloha, the response was virtually immediate. And again, I was a Democrat and a minority freshman, no real place in the hierarchy of Congress whatsoever. But I started to see senior ranking Republicans, chairman of powerful committees, people from other states and who I normally probably would not have had the opportunity to interact with making that long walk from the Republican side of the floor to the Democrat side, looking for me and just saying, thank you. And I love that story. Often, often saying like, I love the toffee. Do you have any more? Cause I ate it all and I need to take some home to my family. But then

most importantly, just saying, Tulsi, tell me, tell me about your district. Tell me what you're interested in working on here. I'm the chairman of the transportation committee or this committee, or this is something I'm doing and let's find a way to work together. You won't tell me who the worst was. I'm going to continue guessing. Was there was there someone who was the best? Was there somebody who really surprised you as a truly standout person that we should be really grateful is serving the country in this way? There are.

She's like, no, there's more than one. No, there's more than one. There are different than one. There are different people who, I mean, look, Trey Gowdy became a very good friend of mine. And there's a whole other story that is kind of the background to that friendship where when I mentioned his name to people, they think it's whether they're democrat or republicans they think it's the most unlikely friendship but when it came down to they want to know about his hair of course i mean he lets people know about his hair so there's not much of a mystery there i know but i still have questions they're unresolved right right um but but our friendship and we did we worked together on civil liberties legislation and some other things but our friendship came down to uh i i had a threat on my life at one point where as a long time years long stalker who culminated in saying i'm gonna hunt you down and cut your head off with a sword

the got capital police protection and and they were hunting. You know, I was I was had security until they found him. And then the actual court process started and it got to a point where I thought I was going to have to go testify in federal court against him. And I'd never I've never done that before. So I was thinking in kind of my war gaming hat came on. It's like, OK, I need to prepare. What kind of questions are they going to ask? You know, how's this whole thing going to work out? And so I called Trey and we didn't know each other very well at the time, but he was friendly. And so I sat with him on the

house floor and told him the situation. I said, would you help me prepare for this? Given his long history in the courtroom and immediately he's fantastic. And immediately he said, Tulsi, I will help you prepare whatever you need. Let me know. And I don't care whatever day is set for you to appear in court. I will drop everything and I will physically go with you into the courthouse and support you. And that meant the world to me. I love that. It's those kinds of people like Trey, very good friends of mine, Mark Wayne Mullen from Oklahoma. He's a Republican. Joe Kennedy from Massachusetts is a dear friend. Kirsten Sinema from Arizona. Jason Smith from Missouri. Kevin McCarthy.

You know, we've developed friendships not because we agree on everything politically, but these are all people who came to our wedding and are, I'm very close to because of who they are as people and the respect that we have for each other in knowing that regardless of differences in politics, that care comes from a place of wanting to do what we feel is best to serve our country. I'm going to get back to Tulsi in just one second. We're going to talk about her feelings about Hillary Clinton, who called her a Russian asset. I'll share my own thoughts on Hillary, actually, and also on Kamala Harris. Boy, those two dusted it up big time. And so how did that work out? What does Tulsi think about her now? But first, we get back to that. I want to talk to you about Zip Recruiter. As you know, businesses have had to be super flexible this past year, working remotely, pivoting their business models for long term survival and growth. And I've seen it here in New York with the restaurants and those poor restaurant owners who have done everything to try to keep their restaurants alive with, you know, creating the outdoor space and then distancing the indoor space and all the hand sanitizing and the thing

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You can try ZipRecruiter for free at ZipRecruiter.com slash MK. That's ZipRecruiter.com slash MK. That's ZipRecruiter.com slash MK. Let ZipRecruiter take hiring off your plate so you can focus on growing your business. Go to ZipRecruiter.com slash MK. ZipRecruiter, the smartest way to hire. And now before we get back to Tulsi, we're going to bring you a new feature. We're starting a new feature on the Megyn Kelly show that we are calling From the Archives, where we find a clip from our archives and bring you an update to the story. Today, we're jumping way back, not really, to episode 59, where I was joined by Chris Ruffo and Jodi Shaw. When I talked to Shaw, she was, quote, on leave from her employer, Smith College,

after Jodi went public with incredible allegations of racism against Smith. You remember what they were doing to her? And she's like, stop making my pigmentation all I'm about and all my colleagues are about. This is absurd. Well, Shaw's on paid administrative leave no longer. She has now officially resigned. But before I tell you about what happened, take a listen to just some of my conversation with Jodi. What happened after you released it? Because I know you said you'd been speaking with other staff. What happened in your life, in your world? It's interesting. You know, I didn't know if two people would watch it and that would be it, or if, you know, thousands of people would watch it. And it was it was the latter. I all of it's interesting what happened at Smith because, you know, we're all remote at this point. All of the people I had spoken to regularly about this kind of thing, you know, kind of whispering on the side, being careful, you know, close doors.

And other people just really bothered also and said, well, we should do something, but nobody, everybody's afraid of losing their job. And so I did something and then none of those people are in contact with me now, except for one, one person texted me and said, good job. No way. They all made very clear. I remember texting one and she made very clear. She did not want to be associated with me anymore. And I kind of understand that because it's kind of like guilt by association, like they know other people have seen us together before. And now, my gosh, like I have to, like people are going to know that I'm speaking with Jodi and I don't want that association anymore. I mean, there is real terror.

There is terror. But on the other hand, a lot of Smith staff and faculty have reached out to me, you know, on the down low and we are now in touch and I'm now in communications. I will say there is still, there are few who who put their name on it um it is it is a high terror situation which is very concerning to me because if we are already at that level i'm very concerned if this keeps going like if we're already at a level where we can't say anything then if how is this going to progress? Well, last week, Shah resigned in a letter that was first published

by our pal Barry Weiss, another former guest from episode 54. She's got her own sub stack, which you should subscribe to. Let me read you just a part of what Jody Shah wrote. I wanted to change things at Smith. I hoped that by bringing

an internal complaint, I could somehow get the administration to see that their capitulation to critical race orthodoxy was causing real measurable harm. When that failed, I hoped that drawing public attention to these problems at Smith would finally awaken the administration to this reality. I have come to conclude, however, that the college is so deeply committed to this toxic ideology that the only way for me to escape the racially hostile climate is to resign. It is completely unacceptable that we are now living in a culture in which one must choose

between remaining in a racially hostile, psychologically abusive environment or giving up their income. Oh, what shoes she did. Right now she's out of a job. Good for Jodi, by the way. It takes courage. She told us in the program, you know, she's going to work plowing driveways, taking care of people's yards, whatever she can to pay the bill. She's got two kids to look after too. And good luck to her with what comes next. We're going to keep you updated on this and keep you updated on other interviews from the archives. And now back to Tulsi. The truth is, while you were handing out macadamia nut toffee in the house, Kamala Harris was over in the Senate with a little Tulsi Gabbard voodoo doll.

You probably needed 100 more of those boxes because these would be your opponents up on the stage when you decided to throw your hat in the big ring and run for president this last go around. And this is when you really started to emerge as a truly, truly national figure, like a boss and in the, in your party, or at least in the national media. I'm not sure. I actually am curious whether you think I'll ask you that in a second. It ultimately helped you with Democrats or hurt you with Democrats. I do think it helped you with the nation running. And let me, so let me take you forward to, there were, there were a bunch of debates that time around. uh appeared in the first you appeared in the second you didn't qualify in the third although you should have but they decided no because you were doing too well um you appeared in the fourth and um it was i think at the fifth debate if i'm not i don't know maybe it's the fourth whatever it doesn't matter i've

lost track too i know it was the it was the fall of 19 i think where you and kamala harris got into it if you don't mind i just want to refresh the audience's memory just by playing a little back and forth here listen i think that um it's unfortunate that we have someone on the stage who is attempting to be the democratic nominee for president of the united states who during the the Obama administration spent four years full-time on Fox News criticizing President Obama. That's ridiculous, Senator Harris. Who has spent full-time criticizing people on this stage as affiliated with the Democratic Party. What Senator Harris is doing is unfortunately continuing to traffic in lies and smears and innuendos.

There are too many examples to cite, but she put over 1,500 people in jail for marijuana violations and then laughed about it when she was asked if she ever smoked marijuana. She blocked evidence. She blocked evidence that would have freed an innocent man from death row until the courts forced her to do so. She kept people in prison beyond their sentences to use them as cheap labor for the state of California. I did the work of significantly reforming the criminal justice system of a state of 40 million people. And I am proud of making a decision to not just give fancy speeches. Senator Harris, when you were in a position to make a difference and an impact in these people's lives,

you did not, and worse yet, in the case of those who were on death row, innocent people, you actually blocked evidence from being revealed that would have freed them until you were forced to do so. There is no excuse for that, and the people who suffered under your reign as prosecutor, you owe them an apology. My entire career, I have been opposed, personally opposed to the death penalty, and that has never changed.

I think you can judge people by when they are under fire, and it's not about some fancy opinion on a stage, but when they're in the position to actually make a decision, what do they do? And fuego. So what do you think the fallout from that was? weakness and vulnerability in not only her record, the facts. I was simply reciting well-known, well-reported facts, not opinions. She didn't even rebut them. She really just kind of said, I'm proud of my record. And then after the fact, when asked like, oh, what about her, what Tulsi was saying about you? And I quote, she said, well, I'm obviously a top tier candidate. And a lot of other people are trying to make the stage for the next debate. Again, noniting her record was one of leadership and integrity.

And when you are in a position to make change, she failed to do so. And for her to run for president, standing proudly on that record that I pointed out, in her words, proud of her record, then there needs to be some very clear examination of exactly what kind of leader and commander in chief that she would be. You know, the fallout, there were a lot of different obstacles and challenges that I faced simply because I was willing to say things that no other candidate was willing to say in pointing out the truth. And, you know, another example, one of the main reasons why I ran for president was because of something that we went through here in Hawaii in January of, this was January of 2019, when we had that missile scare. And it was for those who might not remember, it was early on a Saturday morning when our civil defense alerts and alarms started ringing and people got text messages on their phones and the radio started blaring this message that said, missile incoming, seek immediate shelter. This is not a drill. And if you can, you know, for, for, for everyone who's listening, just ask, just stop and pause for a moment. Think about where you

are at this moment. If you got that message, how would you feel and what would be running through your mind? Cause I'd be like, how did that feel and what would be running through your mind? Oh, I'd be like, how did that crazy guy on YouTube get my cell phone number? But for us out here in Hawaii, we're dealing with a very real nuclear capability and threat from North Korea. And so it was, hey, you've got 15 minutes to live potentially. And so it was, hey, you've got 15 minutes to live, potentially. And so it was people racing to try to get to their children. There's a guy who footage was later released of him lowering his little girl, who's probably about eight years old, down a manhole, thinking that that might be the only place she might

be safe. Another parent who sent me an email afterward about his experience in, you know, where we live on the island of Oahu and he had one child in one part of the island and another on the other side. And he was in the middle and trying to decide which of my children am I going to choose to spend the last minutes of my life with? Oh my God. Just absolutely, absolutely terrifying. And this, this, the reality of this nuclear threat and this experience that we all went through was a major motivation for me to run for president, to bring this issue to the forefront, to make sure that no other family or person in this country goes through what we went through, to bring the reality of this

existential threat of nuclear war and this track that we are on that's pushing us, you know, leaders pushing us closer and closer to this brink and the consequences of that, uh, you know, really the consequences of nuclear war, utter destruction. And so these are the issues that I was bringing to the forefront, this new cold war and nuclear arms race and the need for real leadership to, to walk us back from the brink. But, I found was that the mainstream media, they were not interested in talking about this or covering it. They were not interested in really talking about serious issues that we face in this country. And instead, it really was from the get-go for me and my campaign from day one when I announced my candidacy, as I was on the get-go for me and my campaign from day one, when I announced my candidacy,

as I was on the stage giving my announcement speech, NBC immediately put out an article timed for that moment, trying to undermine my character and create this caricature that would endure throughout the campaign that somehow Tulsi Gabbard is a favorite of the Russians and no proof, no evidence, no, no base to any of this, but bringing these, these smear attempts and tactics forward to try to undermine my candidacy and create this narrative that they would hope would cause voters to not pay attention to the substance and, and the real issues that I was bringing forward because they weren't interested. So what you're saying is NBC smeared a powerful,

independent woman by whom they felt threatened? That NBC did that? Sounds familiar, huh? It's strange to hear. I think you and I have more in common than we might have realized. Talk about that over drinks in a while. Exactly. One of these days. There you go. Well, that was the thing about your candidacy is that you were electric.

You were just fun to watch because you could tell you really didn't give an F. It was just like, boom, here's another truth bomb and boom. And I'm not loyal to this party. I'm loyal to the voters. That's another truth bomb and boom. And I'm not loyal to this party. I'm loyal to the voters. That's, that's who I'm loyal to. And I can totally relate to that because I always felt like I'm not loyal to Republicans when people would always make news when I get up in the business of a Republican on Fox. Like I got news for you. I'm not loyal to those people. I'm a registered independent just because I work at Fox. I don't feel loyalty toward them. I feel loyalty toward my viewers, toward the truth. And it can cause problems in one's life as a news person or as a

politician, certainly, and certainly as somebody running for the Democratic nomination. But there's a moral clarity to it that helps you sleep at night. But the biggest problem for your campaign wasn't, you didn't catch fire with the voters. But I think it's in part because of this. The second thing, which is the media and the total blackout. The ones who are writing about you, of course, is the mainstream press's left wing writing bad things. And the ones who control the airwaves weren't giving you any airtime. your time. That's exactly right. And that's where the evidence of this kind of facade of a democracy comes to the forefront because you really have these corporate media interests who most care about ratings and entertainment and how they can create conflict, you know, on a debate stage or push a narrative that

they think will get more eyeballs to their screens. And I put social media in this category as well, combined with a party that pre-selecting who they wanted voters to hear from. And so that's where you saw a lot of, hey, you know, they're changing the standards for the debates as they go along. You know, just as, you know, hey, okay, we're ticking up a little bit in the polls where we think we're going to qualify for another debate. Oh, sorry, rules changed, you know, the day before or right when, you know, those new polls were coming out and just other things, you know, the day before or right, right when, uh, you know, those new polls were coming out and, and just other things, you know, the democratic, uh, the, the DNC saying, Hey, you know, all presidential candidates, if you want to be featured in any of our, our, um,

publicity that we're putting out, then you got to fork up. I think it was something like $175,000 to the DNC just to be included in their, you know, social media videos or whatever. And I'm just like, no, I'm not going to do that. You know, I got people across the country who are giving, you know, five bucks, 10 bucks contributing to my campaign because they believe in the kind of leadership that I'll bring and the message and the truth that I'm, I'm sharing with voters. And they're certainly not giving me a whole bunch of money to go and then pass it on to the DNC. And so ultimately, that's where we saw time and time again, even small things, it's not that small, but things that went unnoticed. For example, CNN had a bunch of

town halls where they featured different candidates. Um, they, they only gave me one. Most of the other candidates had more than one. And someone called me one day and said, Hey, you know, I'm going through my, um, CNN. It's not DVR, but if you go to CNN's, I guess, digital library, they had, uh, you could replay the town halls of all the different candidates. They're like, you're not on here. Like, it's just not, it doesn't exist. There's no option to find your town hall, but I can find every single other Democrat who ran for president on here. And so there, there were, there were things like that.

And more, more forward, blatant things that made it very clear that if the media makes a decision not to allow voters to hear from you, then a voters really don't have the ability to make an informed decision in a true democracy. And, and then B, the reality is that if you want to, if you want to talk about issues, if you want to get information to people so they can make this informed decision, then clearly running for office is not the way to do it unless you, you know, you're able to self-fund and you've got hundreds of millions of dollars to actually buy the time to get in front of people.

Well, think about it. I mean, what you're saying is a theme, right? Like you're vice chair of the DNC and you can see that they're trying to rig the process to make Hillary win only six debates because she was bad at them when everybody knew what would happen if she were too exposed. And then, you know, any pushback on that and you get silenced, you get the muzzle slapped on you and then you join the campaign and you say things that are unorthodox in the Democratic Party. And suddenly you stop getting invitations from the CNNs of the world. And suddenly the debate criteria change and you get pushed off the debate stage. And then you're like, well, where can I go? Who's going to put me on national television? And Fox News is like,

we'll take you. And they put you on. And then your fellow Democrats use that against you on the debate stage by saying, this is somebody who's been on Fox News multiple times. I mean, it must have been so frustrating for you. It was incredibly frustrating and really a feeling of helplessness, both because of the blackouts, the media blackouts, and the kind of just exactly what you talked about. Like, oh, you're going on Fox News, Fox News, Fox News. Well, I haven't gotten any invitations to talk on CNN or MSNBC lately. Happy to go and talk to everyone, whoever will listen and give me a platform. But using that as a point of criticism. And then, like you said, the coverage that I often got was smears or lies or attempts to destroy my reputation, even undermining my loyalty to the country that I'm willing to die for, which was the most hurtful thing for me, both when Hillary Clinton said it, that Tulsi Gabbard is a Russian asset, and when the media pushed that narrative. All right, let me stop you there because I want to play some soundbites.

So the audience is with us. So true to the threat that had been recognized by your friends at MSNBC years earlier, Hillary Clinton did lie in wait for you all those years. That's what I think. Um, just everyone knows how she operates. She's a snake. And by the way, her daughter's a snake, too. I don't care. I said it. And you run for president and she's over there in the wings and no longer having a chance to be president. And she goes on the podcast, I think, of David Plouffe, who worked for her for her husband. No, who worked for Obama, worked for Obama. Yeah. And says this. I'm not making any predictions, but I think they've got their eye on somebody who's currently in the Democratic primary and are grooming her to be the third party candidate. She's the favorite of the Russians. They have a bunch of, you know, sites and bots and other ways of supporting her so far. And that's assuming Jill Stein will give it up, which she might not because she's also a Russian asset. And there we go. Now, as they say, and Bob's your uncle. The Tulsi Gabbard is is a Russian agent thing was off to the races. And do you think that was what really gave it fuel? I know it had been buzzing around a bit before that, but was that the moment? There's no question to have former

secretary of state, you know, former presidential candidate, former U.S. senator, former first lady using her platform to make this incredibly offensive and baseless accusation that continued to be cited over and over and over and over again that, again, personally was incredibly hurtful, but also hurtful in the sense that someone of her influence would so easily make that accusation against, I still wear the uniform. I'm still serving in the Army Reserve. Someone who wears the country's uniform, who's deployed twice to the Middle East, who serving as a member of Congress and in rooms where we receive top secret national security briefings to a member of Congress and, you know, in rooms where we receive top secret national security briefings to a member of the armed services committee to, to so easily toss that out, um, may sent, sent the message very clearly that if they can do this to me, they can do this to anyone who dares to criticize her or the establishment,

the mainstream dares to speak the truth about issues, especially directly related to our national security and, and when and where our men and women in uniform are sent into battle, this, you will be punished. You will be punished. You will be smeared and your patriotism will be impugned. And that was, you know, I mean, I had people who as I was traveling and campaigning, I remember there was a woman who came up to me in South Carolina at a small little event in a very small rural community. And she was an older African-American woman. She came up to me and she grabbed my shoulders and looked me in the eye. Our faces were just a few inches apart. And she said, Tulsi, I need to know, are you working for Russia? She was completely serious and concerned because of what she had heard. And I, you know, I very seriously, I looked her straight in the eyes and I said, I am willing to die for my country. What that country is, we'll talk about later.

I mean, like, it's just so absurd. It is absurd and dangerous. So both parties do this, of course. We saw this done to Obama, that he was a Muslim, that he really was an American when he was running. But the difference is the leadership on the GOP side then, John McCain at the time, stood up and said at that now famous town hall, no, ma'am, no, he's not. And now you have the head of the Democratic Party, at least she was for years. Saying fanning the flames with absolutely zero basis.

It's just she just wanted to hurt you. And then and then, as you know, and as you point out, her media allies. I mean, honestly, I sort of said they are allies and the Democrats. But that's the same thing. You know, the media, the Democrats, the same thing. Run out to do her bidding and the view was parroting her lines about you. And then they made the stupid blunder of having you on and letting you rest control of the microphone. And let's just play that so the audience could hear. You've been skeptical, skeptical more than a lot of the Democrats about the impeachment inquiry.

Were you surprised by what he did yesterday? Well, look, the facts are important, and we'll get to that. I want to start with something that I think is also important about facts, because recently on your show here, some of you have accused me of being a traitor to my country, a Russian asset, a Trojan horse, or a useful idiot, I think was the term that you used, which basically means that I'm naive or lack intelligence to know what's going on.

They use that. I want to let your viewers know exactly who I am. All right. Set the record straight. I am a patriot. I love our country. I am a strong and intelligent woman of color. And I have dedicated almost my entire adult life to protecting the safety, security and the freedom of all Americans in this country. It was the attacks on 9-11.

That was amazing. You you won over that audience. They. They were on your side when you were done. Yeah. I think they saw through it. How dare they? And by the way, Hillary Clinton's husband spent the late 60s and early 70s doing everything he could to avoid getting drafted and going to serve our country in Vietnam. You took the opposite route. You saw a conflict going on and said, put me in, coach. Let me go help my country. So the nerve for her to turn around and look at you as a traitor to your country,

as someone not willing to serve, as someone willing to serve an adversary, it's got to be deeply offensive. It was deeply offensive, personally hurtful, hurtful to my candidacy. And the most dangerous part of it was, again, the message that was sent loud and clear. who wants to run for office or you're someone who is speaking up and daring to speak the truth and challenge the kind of of war-mongering record that Hillary Clinton has then these very powerful people who have such control over our politics and our media will punish you. There will be consequences and direct personal consequences that speak to smearing your character and your reputation, which, which, um, those things are not, you know, how do you, how do you fix that? Once you have someone in that position

of power and influence coupled with the media perpetuating that lie. What do you do? I mean, and this is where I felt like, I felt like I was in the middle of a war where the other side had aircraft carriers and fighter jets and nuclear submarines. And I'm sitting here with a squirt gun trying to fight back. Yeah. You know, I hate to say this,

but it reminds me a little of Trump. And in a way, you remind me a little bit of Trump. And I'm sure you're not a Trump fan, but let me just explain. He's anti-establishment. He's somewhat of a populist. He's an anti-interventionalist. He's definitely an unconventional politician. He doesn't, you know, I was at the debate where Brett asked him, you know, everybody up here, raise your hand if you might not, or if you will definitely support the ultimate Republican nominee, whoever it is, even if it's not you. And he was the only one like, no, I'm not promising that. It's like, you would have the guts to do that too i don't do you see what i'm talking about do you see any similarities between you and trump uh i i hesitate to agree with that but but look there there there are um there are things that

that trump did uh as president that that substantive issues that i agreed with him on things that decisions that he made that i agreed with him on, decisions that he made that I agreed with him on. There are substantive things that he obviously spoke of and did that I strongly disagreed on. And I spoke out in both of those instances. I did the same with President Obama. There were things that he did I disagreed with. And I was oftentimes one of the only Democrats, if not the only Democrat, to speak out and say, hey, this is wrong. This is not what we should be doing. And then similarly, you know, if there were things I agreed with, I also spoke out on that, just being a fair arbiter and again, staying focused on issues. Well, and just by the way, that was one of the things Kamala Harris tried to use against you on the debate stage. She spent four years going on Fox News to criticize President Obama. So you

didn't spend four years doing it. But when you disagreed with him, you spoke up. That's what we want. We don't want these automatons in these positions who are just loyal to the party, loyal to the party. And cult followers, really. I mean, that's kind of what it becomes is if your guy or gal is in charge, then you automatically put on these blinders that everything that is done is good and and and cannot be criticized i mean that that's that's ridiculous and and it flies in the face of what i think we the american people would hope is that when we vote for somebody we're voting for someone who will lead who will lead and serve and put the interests of the american people first not the political party that's not

who we take an oath to we take that oath office. That oath is to support and defend the constitution of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic. There is no political party mentioned in there at all. And that again is that's, that's where our leadership has gone. So gotten so far from, you know, you take that oath every time you every time you're elected or reelected, but are they really listening to and taking to heart what that means? And unfortunately, we're seeing more and more that that's not the case. What do you think that comment we're sending here to lead reminded me of AOC? Because I know she ripped on you after you voted present on the first impeachment vote. You'd already left voted present on the first impeachment vote.

You were you'd already left by the time the second impeachment came. Who knows if Trump had won re-election, how many impeachments could we have had? We could like once every quarter. Yeah. Anyway, you voted present. I understood your explanation was basically you thought he hadn't behaved well, but you weren't ready to say it was an impeachable offense. That phone call with the Ukrainians. And primarily just to add quickly to that, because look, we're in the midst of a campaign for president. And I saw shenanigans on both sides, Democrats and Republicans were

playing the partisan line on this whole issue of impeachment, both sides unwilling to really be reasonable and actually examine the facts. And therefore, what the Democrats are doing, we're pushing towards actually trying to undermine the American people's ability to make the decision for themselves. And obviously, I was running for president, and I believe that Donald Trump should not be reelected as president. And I was running to bring the leadership that I could bring, but understanding the importance of the American people making that decision and not setting this precedent of, uh, that, that our founding fathers actually warned against if, if impeachment were pursued for partisan interest, then you're, you're undermining the foundations of our democracy where voters will lose faith that, that their votes actually

matter because what, what's the point if you vote and you elect somebody and the losing party immediately starts to move to, to, to, you know, throw that, that person out of office, what's the point of having an election? Exactly. And that, that was what, that was the point that I was trying to make. All right. So what'd you think of her ripping on you for voting present saying we are set here to lead? She didn't listen to what I was saying. I don't, you know, I, I honestly, I didn't give it, I didn't give it, uh, much mind. She's somebody who does buck her own party. You know, she comes at it from the, she's farther left than somebody like Pelosi. Uh, so she she's not she's no way a Republican. She doesn't have positions that she could work across the aisle on for the most part.

But what do you think? What do you think of her? She gets a lot of attention. She's smart at using social media, but very, very polarizing. Look, I think when it comes right down to it, even as her positions may differ from the Democratic leadership in some areas, now that she's been in Congress for a little while, it's become clear that she's towing the line and playing the same partisan game that too many other politicians are playing. And there's been some recent examples of that where there've been some

overtures. I think recently Ted Cruz reached out on Twitter and said, hey, let's work together on an issue. And she basically said, screw you. You tried to murder me, she said. Exactly. Exactly. Oh, Lord. She's such a drama queen. Yeah, you could say that. I think that's been one of the, you've seen it from her, we've seen it from some other people in the aftermath of January 6th. Unfortunately, members of Congress painting themselves as the victim and drawing attention to themselves rather than saying, okay, how can we be a part of the healing solution to help unify a country that's been so torn apart? Well, she was. Yeah, she's done exactly the opposite of that.

She was one of the ones saying, let's get a list of all the Trump supporters. Let's punish the people who are in the administration. I know you've been pretty outspoken about that, which is how wrong this like punish the Trump inner circle and not just the inner circle, but condemn everyone who voted for him as awful Nazis, Hitler's white supremacist, whatever you want to say. I don't know. It doesn't seem to have stopped. They still seem determined to dismiss all Republicans as awful. They want to cancel Fox News. They continue to go after any conservative, you know, like podcasting and websites and Parler was taken down. I just it's all part of the same thing.

Demonization of other and silencing of other. I think it's one of the greatest threats we face as a country right now. I completely agree. And it threatens and undermines that constitutional foundation that our country was built upon. And that dehumanization, that vilification goes straight to the heart of it. Our founders created this institution in our government that would be a government of by and for the people. And in order for that to work, that depends on a free society with an open marketplace of ideas where we, every one of us has that freedom of expression, that freedom of speech. We can debate issues, we can discuss them. We can argue our points in this

open marketplace of ideas. One party arguing their ideas being superior, the others arguing theirs is superior. And ultimately, we as voters, we the people, get to cast our votes based on what we're hearing and the decisions that we feel would best serve America. But what we're seeing now, which is so incredibly dangerous, is that the people who hold these positions of power are trying to censor and filter what we can hear, what we can read, what we can safely talk about without fear of losing our jobs or being, you know, canceled. And pretty directly showing us that, you know, canceled and, and pretty directly showing us that, you know, they think that we're too stupid to actually gather information, to be discerning, to process it and form our own opinions, which really exposes their fear, you know, that, that they

don't want us to hear other views because, you know, we might actually agree with them and their fear and insecurity that they don't actually have confidence in the strength of their own positions, their policies, their values or philosophies. That's interesting. And so, you know, they're worried that they won't be able to convince the people that their way is the right way. So what's the alternative? And the alternative is like, well, we're just going to silence the other side and force you to only hear this view that we deem as acceptable. And when you actually like describing this, is this a democracy? No, this is what we see happening in dictatorships in other countries. And I think that's interesting. It's not, it's not, it's not just that they don't like what Fox news is saying or Republicans or right-leaning people are saying it's that they're afraid it will win. Like that's right. That's a, that's a good next step in the argument, right? Like they're

afraid it will have power and it will pull people over. And I think, you know, you've talked about this, but I think it lines up with something you said earlier and this same theme, which is at all costs, avoid giving the other side a win. And like when criminal justice reform was pushed through by the Trump administration and Jared Kushner working with Van Jones, who is no fan of Trump. Instead of saying like, yeah, right on. OK, we're going to get one of our goals accomplished in this Republican administration. Bring it. You've said that behind the scenes they were like, hell no, don't. This will give Trump separated from their loved ones who are, you know, either wrongfully incarcerated or incarcerated for far too long for a minor nonviolent drug violation. is that we must stop Trump from being able to stand at a podium and saying to the American people, hey, look what I did for you. And it was heartbreaking, especially that that that bill, the First Step Act, as it was going through the process, it was it was a rare but really

beautiful example of, you know, a progressive Democrat, Hakeem Jeffries, in the House, working with a very conservative Republican, Doug Collins from Georgia. I'm friends with both of them. And they teamed up to work on this legislation, working with the White House, working with Jared Kushner, Van Jones, the Koch Foundation, bringing together this incredible coalition of people who normally are at each other's throats, saying this is an opportunity to make some real change that will literally change people's lives. And getting attacked on both sides from members of their own party who are more interested in the politics of it rather than actually doing something. And so, you know, on the Senate, uh, in the Senate, you had, you know, uh, Senator Kamala Harris and Cory Booker trying to, uh, attack the effort. And then you had Senator Tom Cotton trying to attack the effort.

You had these forces coming in who, um, who, who cared more about the political consequences than they cared about passing legislation that, um, that, that literally, uh, has, has,

I mean, has sent people home to their children and their grandchildren. Uh, it's changed thousands of people's thousands of people's lives. And thank God, if you don't support it, right? Like I get that position.

Like I don't support it. I want to let the criminals out early. I think they got what they deserve that, that we've heard that many, many times when it comes to criminal justice reform. But I don't support it. I want to let the criminals out early. I think they got what they deserve that that we've heard that many, many times when it comes to criminal justice reform. But I, I support it. I just don't want it to happen under Trump because he'll use it when he runs again is disgusting. And it's it's one of those things where it's like and they they don't understand why the American people are so willing to believe that the Democrats would cheat to get him not elected. You know what I mean? Like one of the reasons the Republican voters have such skepticism over the last election is they believe these Democrats would do anything to defeat him, anything. And it's examples like that, that back it up. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it is, it is, it is transparent. Um, I think more and more increasingly transparent, uh, to voters, this win at all costs, uh, mentality, you know, which goes

to a whole other issue, just mentioning quickly on, on election integrity, uh, which, which kind of speaks to this same point because, um because election integrity is incredibly important. This is something that for, for, you know, the years leading up to 2020 I and some others were, were very focused on, especially when there was a demonstrated vulnerability in electronic voting systems that left it open to hackers easily being able to go in and manipulate vote counts. And once we recognize this vulnerability, you know, I introduced legislation called the Securing America's Elections Act that very simply said, if you're using an electronic system, because states are in control of administering elections, if you're using an electronic system, you need to have a voter verified paper backup of the vote, every vote that's cast,

or just have paper ballots. And this, this legislation would have helped provide funding to states to be able to implement this in time for, you know, monumental election in 2020. And, and, you know, for all of those who may be talking about election integrity after the fact, where were they in actually passing my legislation or legislation like it to fix it, to actually prevent the problem?

Again, real solutions versus partisan rhetoric and noise. I think it's the difference. Yep, exactly. Do you have any doubt that Joe Biden was fairly elected president? No, I don't have any doubt. You don't. Okay. So you accept the election results is fair. Yeah. Yeah. I accept the election results as fair. You look at the vote counts. You know, I just, you know, every step of the way you progressively started to see that Joe Biden won the election. There was no cracking. That the issue of election integrity pre-existed any of that. And ensuring that people have confidence in the outcome of our elections is integral to people having confidence in our government and who we are as a country. And the results. Yes. So speaking of competence, what do you think of Joe Biden's? Because a lot of us are wondering about his mental faculties and whether he's all there. The thing that I am most concerned about is something you touched on a few minutes ago, which is he delivered a very powerful message of unity in his inauguration speech. And he talked about reaching out to all Americans, including those who did not vote for him. And he has a great responsibility to carry out that promise, which is what our

country needs most right now is that kind of unifying leadership. And my concern is that, you know, here we are a little over a month out from the day that that speech was delivered. And what I see from the leadership there in Washington is that it's going from bad to worse. You know, you actually see, and again, it's hard to, my last day in Congress was January 3rd, and here we are now several weeks later, and you actually have, you know, Nancy Pelosi saying that, you know, Republicans are the enemy within. It's, it's, it's mind, it's, it's hard to fathom how quickly things have gone from bad to worse and how how you know if you follow that train of thought that republicans are the enemy within walking the halls of congress according to nancy pelosi and aoc and and other democrats then naturally if anybody works works with Republicans or reaches out to them or has a conversation with Republicans, then they're traitors. You have to be considered traitors. And it makes me sad. It

makes me so sad. And it's so disheartening to see this happening because it defies, you know, those quotes that are beautifully written in the halls of Congress that speak to the heart and the core of the United States of America and who we are and what we together stand for. And to see this happening, it is, it's heartbreaking. Is that why you didn't run again? I didn't run again because I made that decision in October. I think it was October of 2019 because it was a practical decision. I had to make a choice. I was either going to continue running for president or run for reelection. I couldn't do both. I would have failed at doing both if I had tried. And I was running for president for very real reasons and chose to pursue that path. And so announced at that time that I wasn't running again. So now what? I mean, you're starting a podcast,

which is exciting. like what's the what is that the is that the plan or is there a bigger plan or are we going to see you back on the national stage when it comes to 2024 um the short answer is is um i don't know i'm not thinking about, I'm certainly not thinking about 2024 at all right now. I'm really focused on how I can best continue to serve. My core motivation has always been and continues to be how can I use my life somehow or other in service of God, to be pleasing to God. And what better way to be pleasing to God and make Him happy than to work for the well-being of God's children and this planet? And that's, for me, how, how much time I have in this life. I want to make the most of, of it and know that, you know, whether my time comes,

you know, in a week or if it comes in 20 years that at whatever point that comes and I I will find peace and knowing that I've done all I can to be pleasing to God and there's so many ways to be of service whether it's in political office outside of political office and and I'm excited right now you know I'm continuing to serve in the army reserves as a civil affairs officer I'm excited about launching my podcast it's going to be called this is Tulsi Gabbard because it will be me unfiltered and having conversations and addressing issues that I think are really important. And that again, as we have pointed out so clearly, the mainstream media is not interested in talking about. And so it'll be an amazing opportunity to be able to speak directly to people and with people and, and kind of bringing to the forefront something that I did

experience the most amazing thing I experienced in the presidential campaign, but also throughout my time serving in the military and traveling to different parts of the world is that, you know, what we may have very different backgrounds may come from different places, you may worship differently, we may, you know, there's so much good that can be done and so much progress that we can make just as people. Well, I mean, I think a, you're going to be a big success because you have authenticity and you know, it's gotten you in trouble and it's going to make you successful, right? Like it's the flip sides of the same coin. You're authentically you, no matter the circumstances. I think people will love that. And I think, you know, I relate to what you just said because I, you're clearly not far left. I say you're center left and I'm center right. And I, I see you, I feel like I'm right

over here at six and you're over there at four. And I think most of the nation is with us here. Most of the nation is, you know, between three and seven. And, but like the ones with the loudest microphones are way over there at nine and 10 and one and two, and it's annoying. So it's good to have more people like you out there to, just to remind folks, it's not all a bunch of lunatics out there driving policy, driving the national discussion. You know, there are a lot of things that you sound more like a Republican on and maybe, you know, I might sound more like a Democrat on some of the social issues in particular. Oh, and by the way, my executive producer reminds me, we wanted to ask you a question from one of our listeners, one of our Instagram followers actually submitted this. And it's, by the way, the Instagram is at Megan Kelly Show, if you want to submit a

question. And here's the question to you. Would you ever consider being on a bipartisan ticket for president slash vice president? That's from Tay Marie 12. I would. And here's why. My mission has always been putting country first. So if I have the opportunity to serve my country in a way that I feel I can make a real difference, of course, I would consider that opportunity very seriously.

Being limited by the confines of partisanship flies in the face of the core of my being and, and who I am. And, um, so that, that's an easy answer. Would you do it if the top of the ticket were Trump? Uh, no. And there's, there's, there's a whole lot of reasons why. Um there i was so excited for my follow-up i just thought of that one well again there's limits there's there's a again my my of course there are limits and and i you know whether if i were asked to be on a ticket by a democrat or a republican i would it would not be an immediate uh yes or no in either case, because I would want to focus on, look, I'm not interested in being somebody's arm candy. I'm not interested in being, you know, okay, we'll put you out there up front, but you don't actually get to do anything. I would want to make sure wherever I am

in politics, outside of politics, that I'm in a place where I can actually make the kind of positive change that I am seeking to do with my life. And if that's not the case, I really don't care about the title or the job. If I can't do something with it that's positive that will serve our country, then pass and I'll go, I'll find some place that I can. Now, I got to end with this and forgive me if this is an inappropriate question. But you you're almost 40, right? You turn 40 in like a week in April or something or yeah, a month. Yeah, a month. Okay. You got married just a couple years ago. You got some time off. So what do you think? Is motherhood in your future plans? God willing, as they say.

Good. This is maybe a longer conversation we can have another time. But my husband and I will be celebrating our sixth anniversary also in April, a few days before my birthday. And, you know, I would love, we would both love to be parents. I'd love to be a mother. And you, you know, I would love, we would both love to be parents. I'd love to be a mother. And you, I think, especially could understand the very real conversation around the choices that we make as women in our lives. Yeah. But I think things are lining up for you perfectly right now. Not that it's any of my business, but I speak in a capacity as a friend and not an interviewer. This is the time you got like

a couple of years, even if you decide to do something in 2024, uh, go for it. I had my kids for what it's worth at age 38, 40 and 42. So it definitely can be done. I mean, I think I'm probably more tired than like my assistant, Abigail, who had her kids a lot younger than I did. But that's what, you know, you get help for. You don't have to do it all on your own. And you just, you are one of those human beings who must reproduce. Tulsi cannot be the end of the Tulsi gene pool.

That just can't be. Thank you. Well, I'm totally rooting for you. I can't wait until the podcast starts. When is it starting? I'm recording some shows actually this week. I'm trying to get a few recorded before we launch, but I'm hoping it'll be in the next week or so.

So soon. Very, very soon. Awesome. Can't wait. And good luck with it. Thank you so much. I appreciate it, Megan. It's been so great to talk to you.

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