The Megyn Kelly Show - Two Women Fighting Back, with "ThisIsSavvy" Savannah Edwards and Rancher Leisl Carpenter | Ep. 125

Episode Date: July 7, 2021

Megyn Kelly is joined by Savannah Edwards, heterodox TikTok influencer "ThisIsSavvy," recently banned by TikTok, and Leisl Carpenter, a rancher suing the Biden administration over racial discrimination (along with her lawyer, Will Trachman), to talk about our culture's emphasis on identity, stepping out of your comfort zone, the struggles of farmers and ranchers from COVID and other concerns, the legality of race-based COVID aide distribution to farmers, the status of lawsuits against the Biden administration, and more.Follow The Megyn Kelly Show on all social platforms:Twitter: http://Twitter.com/MegynKellyShowInstagram: http://Instagram.com/MegynKellyShowFacebook: http://Facebook.com/MegynKellyShowFind out more information at:https://www.devilmaycaremedia.com/megynkellyshow

Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show, your home for open, honest, and provocative conversations. Hey everyone, I'm Megyn Kelly. Welcome to The Megyn Kelly Show. Big day here on the show. We're going to start with this, two women fighting back. We're going to be joined first by Savannah Edwards. She is a TikTok influencer, a blogger, a YouTuber, and she had the nerve to push back on some of these race narratives, Savannah's Black, that were being fed by people like Alyssa Milano. And guess what? TikTok banned her. They took down her entire account.

Well, she fought back and we'll tell you what's going on there. And then we're going to be joined by a woman named Liesl Carpenter. She is a sixth generation Wyoming rancher. She's got a young babe, a 20 month old son at home. And she's really suffered thanks to covid, as a lot of our farmers and ranchers here in the have in the United States. Well, thanks to the Biden administration, she's not going to get any of the latest round of COVID relief because she has the wrong skin color, because the relief that was offered in the American Rescue Plan for farmers and ranchers requires, in order for you to get loan forgiveness, which is what they're offering, plus 20% for you to be a person of color. You have to be black or some other, quote, socially disadvantaged

group, which for these purposes does not include women or anyone other than blacks, Hispanics, Latinos, American Indians. I think it's Alaska natives and Asian Americans. Okay, so that's you can get it. No white people at all, even if they've suffered mightily. And if you're a black person who hasn't suffered at all, you can still get the money. So is that fair? We're going to get into it with Liesl and her lawyer, Will Trackman, on not just her case, but three or four others that have been winding their way through the system slowly but surely and not coming out the way the Biden administration wants. We'll get to all of that in one second, but first this. Savannah Edwards, how are you? I'm good. How are you? I'm great. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. You are on fire. I confess to you, I'm not on TikTok. It just sort of meanders over to my world of news sites when somebody makes news. And that's how I first discovered you. You are worth signing up. You are worth letting the Chinese spy on me. I just think your bits are so clever. You're really just an insightful political and social commentator. How did you fall into it? Did you design? Is that by design or is that just by accident? Literally by accident. When I started doing TikTok, it was more so because I'm a New Orleans

transplant. I moved here about a year and a half ago, just kind of to show what New Orleans is from a new person's perspective. And someone ended up asking a question on a TikTok. I responded and it kind of snowballed from there. Okay. Yes. Right. Because you'll give us like a little bit usually of the question you've been asked or the thing you're responding to at the top of your bits.

And it's great because it's actually just a little tease. I'm like, wait, what did Alyssa Milano say now? And it's always nonsense, but not everybody's as effective at calling her out on it. That is the clip that really went viral and I think led to you being on Fox and Friends. But let me let me let me play it so the audience can get a flavor for what we're talking about. It's Alyssa at the at the top, followed by Savannah's response. For those of us who are not black men, imagine watching the news and seeing how people imagine being a black man and being told by some white lady with a microphone that you and the criminal on TV are one and the same because you look alike. Imagine being told by society that white people can be all that they can be,

but you as a black man, the content of your character is completely irrelevant. You are the color of your skin and that is all you will ever be. Imagine being told you can't figure out how to vote because of the color of your skin. Socioeconomics affects everyone, but apparently you're not as smart as the poorest white person. Lady, I don't want to hate you. I'm a 90s kid. I grew up with you, so I know you're very talented. I understand your heart is in the right place, but you are everything you preach against. You're not helping. You're making things worse. You're causing more division. You're causing more fear. Statistically speaking, I am more likely to be shot and killed by my black elderly neighbor across the street than the cop who patrols my neighborhood. Statistically speaking, I am more likely to be shot and killed by my black elderly neighbor across the street

than the cop who patrols my neighborhood. Statistically speaking, homicide by cop is very rare, but people like you find power in fear so you keep it front page news. You don't have to be a white supremacist. You can be better. Wow. Well, the reason it was so powerful

is that there's been a comedian who did a bit on white supremacist or black lives matter activist and sort of ran the rhetoric uh through that filter and you couldn't quite tell which was which and that is how somebody like alissa milano speaks like you captured the message so brilliantly so what was it that made you respond to her in particular goodness it's that that entire message in general that Black people are helpless and we need a pat on the head

and our lives are so hard because of the color of our skin and that we're all just suffering and struggling. And like, it's her job as a white liberal woman to make sure I have the best life possible. It's just frustrating. But you're young, right? How old are you? I just turned 34.

Yeah. So you are young. And so if a betting person would say, okay, young people tend to be more left-leaning. They buy into these social causes. They want to march for this, that, or the other thing. So how did you get to be a young Black woman in the South who rejects this kind of rhetoric? Oh, goodness. Honestly, faith. I came to know Jesus when I was 18. And before that, I was very liberal. I mean, I was 18 years old.

So what did I know? But I was very liberal, left-leaning. And I think as I came to know Jesus more and I grew deeper into my own faith, my views on a lot of the world started to shift and change. So I started to see things, not so much that I believe differently, but I just saw the world differently. And I think that's, yeah, I feel like you're a common sense messenger and it doesn't, it's not just about race. It's about any, any one of the number of issues that we're arguing about in our culture today. You're a cultural commentator. So we'll start with the race stuff, but I really want to get to like body positivity and cultural appropriation, some of the that were fed by the wokesters of the world, right? Like white people are born with original sin, says Robin DiAngelo. And no matter how many times you apologize for it,

you can never overcome it and so on and so forth. I wonder if you get blowback. And before you answer that, let's just play this other clip of this is you talking about how white people are not a monolith and really neither are black people. Let's play that clip. Number one, white people are not a monolith. Not every white person has the same values, the same upbringing, the same history. Number two, brown people are not sinless. We're not little babies or infants that get a pat on the head and a pass. Every racial group on this planet has committed some kind of atrocity.

Number three, number one and number two really don't matter because no one is responsible for the sins of their ancestors and no one has to apologize for the sins of their ancestors. Well, their ancestors were colonizers. My ancestors were slaves. Does that make me submissive and easy to control? Good luck. It is completely understandable to hold animosity towards a singular person or two or three people who have done you harm. It is not understandable to hold animosity towards an entire group of people based on the color of their skin. I'm just going to say this straight. Dear white people, I'm sorry you don't want to be called a racist, but stop giving ignorant

black people a pass. Calling a spade a spade is not racist. Wow. I mean, we're going to be joined by a woman later who is a white rancher from Wyoming who's challenging this bill giving relief only to people of color in the ranching and the farming industries. And she's saying, I'm struggling. Why am I off the list automatically because of skin color? And the response by the Secretary of Agriculture, Tom Vilsack, was because there's been hundreds of years of discrimination and your ancestors did not object to that discrimination. So you're in no position to object to it now. That's ridiculous. That makes no sense. What does her ancestors have to do with her right now? What do they know about her ancestors? That's part of the problem is people look at someone who's white

and they automatically assume, oh, they must have been a slave owner. Like I think it was like 6% of white people own slaves and there were even Black slave owners. But there were far more white people who were fighting against slavery. So who's who? Does it even matter at this point? It's 2021. My great-grandmother apparently killed somebody and went to prison. Does that make me a murderer? No. I'm Savannah. I'm my own person. I have my own life. on the show from Thomas Chatterton Williams to John McWhorter to Glenn Lowry to Coleman Hughes. Three out of four of those I just named are black liberals who just don't see race the way, you know, Robin DiAngelo does. They sound more like you. They all get called Uncle Toms. They all get pushed back. They all get called terrible names. And I wonder if you've had any of that. Oh, yeah, all the time. But TikTok has a very interesting feature called comment filters,

where you can filter certain words out of your comment section. So if someone calls me one of those names, they can, they can see their comment, but no one else can. And that gives me an opportunity to actually go back, review, and just block them. I mean, I've been hearing these words since I was little.

So it doesn't even bother me at this point. Is that right? Have you always, is that because you've taken positions like this from the time you were little or just people are nasty and racist in some cases and call names? No, because I'm just different. Cause I was that black kid that enjoyed things that weren't considered black. So I liked rock music.

I like to shop at Hot Topic. I, you know, I speak, I've always been very articulate and I've always spoken well. I sound like my mom. No one in my house speaks with a quote unquote black scent, you know, so I didn't grow up hearing that. So I got picked on by other black kids. I got called Coon, Uncle Tom and all the different names. So at this point I'm like, I'm used to it and I've been hearing it for so long. It's not creative. It's, it's almost like a gut reaction to anything that challenges their normal or what they've been told is supposed to be normal for what it means to be Black. So you go against everything I was told about what it means to be Black. And I don't know what to do about it. So all I know to do is just attack you.

And you're undermining their message. And it's not just you go against it. So all I know to do is just attack you. And you're undermining their message. And it's not just you go again. It's like you, the fact that you exist and you think this way, this is how you see the world in some way disproves their entire message that you're not empowered, that you're not smart enough that, you know, the white man needs to sacrifice more so that you can be an equal participant in the conversation. And, you know, it's, you meet somebody like you, it's like, that's obviously not true. Right. Because you have people nowadays, it's you meet somebody like you. It's like, that's obviously not true. Right. Because you have people nowadays, there's different figures and different speakers who are trying to preach that all black people have the same experience, that we all feel the same way about racism, that we all go through the same thing. We all feel the same way about the past. So when someone like me comes up and says, well, no, no, not quite.

It's like I brought on the apocalypse. It's very undermining to the overall message. That's why people like Candace Owens get such pushback and Larry Elder, whose movie Uncle Tom was brilliant. Love it. You know, he he just lives with the fact that people are going to call him that. I mean, that's why I named his movie that. And I know you saw it. You did a bit about it. Here it is. To see an entire movie with people who not only look like me, but they think like me. We share a similar worldview and a similar perspective. It is so refreshing.

Not entirely sure what my expectations were, but this was definitely more than I expected. I wasn't expecting such a beautiful display of history. Man in the film, I think it was Chad Jackson who said, you know, when they call us names like that, it's an attempt to put us in our place. It's the new master's whip, except it's coming from our own people. But here's the thing, though. Putting me in my place. You assume my place is standing next to you. No, that's your place. I'm walking forward and you can't catch me. What was it about that movie that resonated with you? It can be very lonely being Black and being different. So it's always encouraging to see

that there are other people who are like me. And I recognize a lot of the names from the movie, but just to hear them say and some of the things that I have been saying for years and feeling for so many years, it's just encouraging. It's like, okay, I'm not alone. I'm not by myself. So that's the number one, but just to hear history spoken in that way, I don't know how to explain it. It's just this feeling I'm not alone. I had on Jason Reilly, who writes for the Wall Street Journal recently, and he's an AEI fellow and so on. But he wrote a book about Thomas Sowell, and they made it into a movie, into a documentary. And he was making the point that why isn't Thomas Sowell taught in every classroom? Why doesn't everybody know that name? And I do think that there's a purposeful ostracizing of these heterodox thinkers who happen to be black because they're so undermining of the message of someone like a Kendi or like D'Angelo Kendi, who are preaching this very monolithic message that this is the Black experience. So anything that challenge, people can't handle more than one thought at a time.

They can't handle more than one narrative at a time. They can't handle their brains being split into two different places. They can't handle the thought that they may have to think critically or maybe accept that their thinking might have been flawed or they may have to change the way they see things. So it's always one trend at a time. Well, and what you do so well as you account for nuance, you know, saying, look, you know, white people are not a monolith, but black people are not all sinless. I mean, people are complicated as I'm always saying on the show. And we've gotten to this place as a society where we just don't accept that. It has to be these broad brush assessments of groups based on their lady parts, their skin color, their sexual preferences, what have you. Oh, yes. It's just odd.

I mean, I grew up in the 90s and the early 2000s, where some of this stuff just didn't seem to matter. But now everyone wants to be labeled. Everyone wants to make sure they fit neatly into a box and that their identity is secured and can be easily seen. Because it's all performative. Because when you're alone by yourself in your room, who are you and what are you and what does it all matter?

It's all about wanting to be seen and wanting to be validated. Well, you know, so one of the things that bothers me about what's happening right now in our culture you hit on, which is why do these woke activists want to give so much of their power away? Why do they want to pretend that, you know, some kid singing a stupid song that happens to have the N word in it, you know, that ends in an A, right? He's just repeating the song. That that somehow is soul crushing for them. You know, I don't, it's not that I'm advocating use of the word. I'm just saying, why, why do we have to act as though anyone's transgression causes a deep personal wound. And it could, it doesn't just have to be a color thing. It can be a, you know, a woman feeling this way over toxic masculinity or what have you. And it opens up old wounds. Why? Why? I mean, I, I actually gave, I was speaking in front of a group of students once there was a young woman. She was probably 18, 19. I want to say, uh,

she was black. And she said, um, I'd said that basically a black writer had said that Santa Claus is black is white and that she wants that one of that change. And I agreed with her, Santa Claus is white and asked, why does it have to change? And she stood up and said, your remarks dehumanized me. And I really thought to myself, first of all, you got to take that up with like your God and your therapist, because you should never let some random news lady dehumanize you. attacking them. But what you said earlier about, you know, this exchange of power, I think I've said it a couple of times on my TikTok. No one has the power to make you feel any one way about you unless you give them that power. So if someone says something and they make you feel a certain way, you have to ask, well, why have I given them this power? Why have I allowed them to have this kind of control over me? That's not the way people are thinking, but you're exactly right. Because the other way of handling it is people will say things that offend me. And it's up to me to decide how I will respond and how deeply I will take that in and affect

my own judgment about myself. And this is sort of one of the things I've been saying is it's great. We can do all the training, sensitivity training we want, but it's never going to change the fact that there are mean, insulting people in the world. That's, that's life. We're never going to get to all of them. We're not going to be able to control everybody's bad behavior. So the better resource, you know, as a mother, I look at my three kids, I want them to be tougher. You know, people will say nasty things. You're not gonna be able to handle that unless you get ready for it and decide how you're going to handle that like internally. So this is one of the reasons why

one of my favorite skits of yours or bit skit, whatever is your bit on body positivity. Cause you, you hammer all of this. Let's listen. Honey, I'm fat. Five foot one, 195 pounds. I should be a walking health problem, but I'm not. The only issue I have is my knees, but I'm pretty sure that's from the Tootsie Roll and the butterfly. I just pulled my BMI out of the 40s. The most common form of oppression in the United States is letting others dictate how you feel about you. People are going to treat you all kinds of ways. They're going to say whatever they want about you, but the moment you let what they say dictate how you feel about you is the moment you give them power over you. Your validation shouldn't come from the mouths of other people. I know I'm a

teapot. I see it every day when I look in the mirror. No one has to remind me. I'm an adorable, goofy, little hot mess, and I love it. No one on God's green earth has the power to make me feel any different. Get to the point where you accept and love you for you. Whatever people have to say, it's either a dash of sugar in the pot or it's garbage in the can. Either way, it doesn't change anything. That's amazing. Dash of sugar in the pot or garbage in the can. Yes. Right. I love that. But that's, that's another area where you're not, you know, you're, you're not allowed to talk about things like that, right? You're, we have to crack down on the bad behavior. It's a, it's a universal game of whack-a-mole right now. Yeah. I'm overweight. I'm working on it. I'm working

on losing weight, but now it's a trend on TikTok where if you say, oh, I don't want to be fat, you're fat phobic. Yep. Like, leave me alone. I just want to live a long time. Why is that so horrible? But there was a woman who commented and I couldn't find the comment. That's what I was responding to where she said something like, you know, how people say things and it makes us feel, I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, no, they didn't make you feel any way. You allowed what they said to make you feel a certain way. You gave them that power. You need to be strong within your own self, know who you are, know your value, your worth, so that when people come and they say things to you, you're fully armored. They can't touch you. And, you know, everyone wants to be oppressed. Everyone wants, that's a new thing now, people who are obese are oppressed. We're bothers me. Why does that bother me? Oh, it bothers me because I happen to believe it too. That's usually the answer. So the insults

that people hurl at you that don't bother you usually don't because you know they're not true. It's like, oh, this is BS. It's not an honest broker or whatever. I know I'm not that thing. If it sticks, you might have concerns in your own head. And so it's like, oh, great, something for me to work on, you know, an area for me to shore up. The dam came loose in that one spot. I can work on that. Right. It's like instead it's lean into victimhood, complain about the other and try to crack down on people's speech. Pretty much.

I mean, I agree with you when people say something bad about you and it hurts you. It's a gift because it's it it forces you to become self-aware. And I think people are avoiding that self-awareness. People don't want to be self-aware. People don't want to admit that I have my own insecurities and I'm letting my insecurities dictate the way I operate and function throughout the world. But I like that you have a message of positivity on top of all this. So you address that. You get into, okay, you're feeling bad about yourself. You don't, whatever it is, you don't like your weight. You don't like the way you approach the world. You don't like, and trust me as a public figure,

you've got to have this, this messaging all the time. You've got to sort of reset and remind yourself who you are. You're not horrible because no matter who you are, they're going to say terrible things about you. And I'm sure this is happening to you as your power grows and your, your influence grows, which it has over 54,000 followers on Instagram. I mean, that's huge. And you've got 737,000 plus on TikTok, over 13 million likes. So your influence grows. You become a target. But this, in the midst of all of it, this is your message to people who are wondering whether they're bad, whether they're internally bad and some sort of a mistake.

Let's take a listen. This kind of hit me and I feel like I need to share it. If you're a Christian, this will probably mean more to you than if you're not. But if you're not, stick around. It might mean something to you. I don't know. I don't know who this is for, but at some point in your life, you're going to have to accept the fact that when God made you, he didn't make a mistake. He didn't skip any steps.

He didn't leave anything out. He knew exactly what he was doing. He didn't skip the measuring cups. He didn't skip any steps. He didn't leave anything out. He knew exactly what he was doing. He didn't skip the measuring cups. He didn't guesstimate with the ingredients. The recipe that created you was written long before you were even a thought. If no one has ever told you, I will. There's nothing wrong with you. Everything about you is intentional.

Great thought and great care was put into every inch of you. You don't need to be fixed. Maybe not today, but one day you will accept you exactly as you are. And when you do, that kind of freedom is Christless. That's so well said. And you mentioned it before, your faith and what a role that's played in your outlook on life. Can you speak to that a bit? Oh yeah, this is something I had to come to terms with on my own. That's where I pick a lot of what I say comes from is just life experience and lessons I've learned along the way. But, you know, I came to Christ when I was a teenager and

being a teenager is just rough in general, but it's, it's one big identity crisis. And it was through faith, my faith in God and learning who God is and his and the role he plays in my life, the role he wants me to play in this world that I've had to come to terms with. This is who I am because I think everyone has parts of themselves they wish they could change and parts of themselves that they don't like. For the longest time, I was like, I want to be gentle. I'm not gentle. I am very bold and abrasive. And I just kind of say things. I don't, I don't think first. And I was like, God, I just want to be gentle. And I had to come to terms with God made some people gentle, but that's not how he made me. He made me bold for a reason. And it took me a while to accept I am this person.

This is exactly who I am. And we live in a world right now that's trying to tell people based on the color of their skin, their weight, if you're too pretty, if you're too skinny, if your family has been here since the Mayflower, there's something intrinsically wrong with you. And I just want people to know what other people have to say, that's not the Bible. And those people are not your God. They don't get to dictate whatever it is you believe in. They don't get to dictate who you are. They don't get to define your character.

They don't get to define your worth. And they don't get to define your value. That's so true. I wanted to be gentle, but I am bold. I know what you're saying. Listen, I tried to be a morning talk show host on NBC News for a stint of my career. I too thought I would lean into gentle, but I also am bold. And I've sort of gotten to the place in my own life now where I embrace my rough edges. You know, I like my edges, but society tells me I shouldn't, right? Tells me that they call me an ice queen in the magazines. Okay, that's fine. What your version of ice queen is my edges, which I love and I wouldn't change for the world. And all you have to do is try testing it out to figure that out,

you know? Oh yes. Me embracing my edges, that took a while. But once I got to that place, it was freedom. I authenticity in today's day and age. Well, that's only if you say the right things. If you, if the authentic you is approved by, you know, the unknown masses who decide what's appropriate, what's great and bold about you is you're authentically you. And as you say, adorable, goofy, little hot mess. Yes. Rocket it. Right. Amen. Or can we talk about, um, cultural appropriation? Cause that's another big thing that I'm so sick of people lecturing me on. It's like we have a, uh, like there's a costume party in our neighborhood here at the beach. Uh, we had it a couple of years ago where five families chose a different region of the world and offered one drink and one appetizer from that region. Right. And people would dress up as the region, you know and offered one drink and one appetizer from that region. Right.

And people would dress up as the region. You know, our one friends did Russia in the 1980s and they were wearing like the babushkas and they had a bunch of red and they had pictures of Gorbachev and Reagan. Okay, great. I mean, now you'd be, you'd be called a cultural appropriator, right? It's like, you can't wear the kimono. If you're doing Japan, you can't wear the sombrero. If you're doing Mexico, you can't, you can't do it. Even if you're doing Japan. You can't wear the sombrero if you're doing Mexico. You can't do it. I'll give you another example. I took my family and I were in the Bahamas a couple years ago.

And my little girl at the time wanted to get a couple of the braids. And it was like, oh, God, you're not allowed to do that. And then she's like, why? And I'm like, I don't even know how to explain this to you without introducing concepts that you're too young to understand. But let's just do something else. I'm like, I don't even know how to explain this to you without introducing concepts that you're too young to understand. But let's just do something else. And you tried to get at this after there was a white woman who was asking whether it was cultural appropriation to do something. Do you remember what it was that she wanted to do?

I think she wanted to wear waist beads. What are waist beads? Waist beads. It all depends on what country we're talking about. It's jewelry that goes around the waist. Some places I think it's, they keep it hidden. It's just there kind of as a symbol of maybe marital status, but I know in some places it's fashion. Okay. All right. So she was asking whether she could do it. And here's your response. Do not let these Americans tell you what you can and cannot do with African culture. Black American and African are not synonymous. Just because we share a skin tone does not mean we share a culture.

We don't. Culturally, we are very different. Culturally, we are American, not African. If you really want to know whether or not you should wear waist beads, ask an actual African, someone who's West African or Kenyan. Ask them. You're not going to tell you you can't wear them because Africans, for the most part, do not gatekeep their culture. If Africans were gatekeepers of their culture,

we wouldn't have box braids. You have an honest culture question? Don't ask an American because we don't know. Being a POC does not come with a culture certification. We're prone to ignorance just like everyone else. Go to Google, look up a shop, send them an email, ask them your questions, not TikTok. So true. Whatever happened to being able to celebrate one another's cultures in that way? It's so weird because this is the United States of America. None of us really are indigenous to this piece of land. We all came from somewhere else and we all brought pieces of those cultures with us. Even African slaves brought pieces of pieces of those cultures with us even african slaves brought pieces of their culture and some of that has survived today if you go to different coastal

areas like south carolina georgia louisiana like where i'm at in new orleans you can see a lot of that here we've all brought brought pieces of culture from other places and created something that's uniquely american and you have a lot of young people, I think, weren't taught the melting pot aspect of America, which is so strange. But with this particular video, I've seen a lot of people try to equate being Black in America to being Black in Africa. This isn't, you know, 1619, where slavery was just started, and we were, you know, fresh out of Africa. You know, it's been several centuries. We have our own culture here in the United States that's completely separate from whatever to explore something different than what's their norm, and then they get shut down. And it's ridiculous. So like your daughter wanting to go get braids in the Bahamas, that's such a normal, traditional thing to do.

I think I went on my first cruise when I was 16. That was, what,, maybe? 2003? And there were women doing braids right there on the boat. And here's the thing though, because people say, well, your daughter getting braids is cultural appropriation, but are you going to tell those women they're not allowed to share their culture? Right, right. That it would be inappropriate of me to accept the offer. If a white woman decides she wants box braids, more than likely she's either going to go to a friend to get it done or she's going to go to an African hair braiding salon. Are you going to tell those African women they're not allowed to share their culture because it offends you because you're bothered because you're ignorant? I mean, a lot of these things that we're trying to gatekeep like box braids, it's not even American culture.

This is African culture that has been shared with women all over the world. African hair braiding is an entire industry over in Russia. And they've taken what was once just a traditional African hair braiding and turned it into something funky. That's how culture works. And I think that's part of the problem is no one is teaching these young people what culture is and how culture just works in our world. It's not stagnant. It doesn't stay in one place. It's like a lily pad in a river. It just, it travels. It goes places and it changes and it's like cultural diffusion and what it means to go from one culture to another. You know, I'm in New Orleans. I'm from the Carolinas. Culturally,

these are two 100% different places. I may as well be in another country. So what was I supposed to do? Just stay in North Carolinian, trying to adapt to New Orleans? No, I had to shift cultures. I had to shift the way I talk. I had to shift the way I eat. I had to shift the way I drive. It makes me wonder, how are these young people being raised? Are your parents exposing you to different cultures? Are they taking you to museums? Are they taking you to exhibits and shows? Are they taking, are they, are y'all traveling? Do they take you to the movies where you see something that's completely culturally different?

When someone like you, you know, this, you're just bold in your thinking and your, and your behavior, and you look around, you see all this stuff happening with the culture, the cultural appropriation and the body positivity and the crackdown on, you know, all the monuments have to go. I know you did a bit on that. Alyssa Milano trying to tell you that you're a victim and, you know, so on and so forth. Does it drive you crazy? How is it making you feel? It drives me nuts, honestly, because it's like, it's almost like all of this happened overnight. I don't remember the world being like this as I was growing up. I felt like I had

freedom to kind of just be myself with like stuff like Alyssa Milano and even Black Lives Matter. I was having a conversation with some of my friends a couple months ago, just catching up because I'd moved and they asked me how I was feeling about all of the things and, you know, the different protests and George Floyd and all that. And I told them, I said, one of the most depressing things for me is before all of this happened, when people looked at me, I was Savannah. But now when people look at me, I'm black girl. The first thing they see is a color of my skin and they wonder how to act accordingly. And it's like, I don't matter anymore. The only thing that has value in my life is the color of my skin. It's almost like currency. And it's like, I just want to get back to the point where I can literally

just live my life. I could travel and explore new things and buy artifacts and come back to my house and share it with my roommates or my mom or my brother and share people what I've learned. And then just, I feel like we're not living, we're just existing and we're trying to exist without hurting anyone's feelings. Which is not a realistic way to go through life. It's not possible. Let people be hurt. They'll be all right. Yes. And they'll be tougher on the opposite end of it. If they don't curl up into a ball and just give up, which is 99% of the time, not what people do. They make it through and they're stronger. That's what sort of the point I was making about, um, Naomi Osaka, the tennis player

is like, I know you don't like to talk to the press cause they're annoying. I mean, I get it, but like most of us have annoying things about our jobs and we just do them anyway, because it's part of the job. And then we find out that we handled it like a boss, like a girl boss and everything's fine. We don't just say like, no, I have to lean into this social anxiety I have. Most of us say I've got some social anxiety, so I'll deal with it. I'm going to get through it. I'm going to get better. I'm going to stand up in front of groups of people and talk and then it'll lessen over time, whatever. This is, we're going a different way. Definitely. You got to do the things that make you uncomfortable.

You got to face the things that make you uncomfortable or else you're just going to be an agoraphore, but you're not going to go anywhere. That's right. Doing this interview. This is uncomfortable. This is odd for me. This is different. But how am I going to see.

Being interviewed or what? I'm not used to being interviewed. I'm not used to talking to people. It's easy being on TikTok. I can pretend no one's watching. Right. I know what you mean. So why'd you do it? Because a new door has opened. And in order for me to explore what's behind the door, I have to step forward. I have to do things that make me uncomfortable. I have to face fears I didn't even know I had until a couple of weeks ago. What if you fall on your face? I'll get back up. I'll be all right. I fell on my face last weekend roller skating. I had a couple of bruises, a scratch, and I had a great story to tell. That's right. So in the midst of all this, you forge forward, you make your social commentary,

you put out the bit on Alyssa and so on. And then you find out that TikTok, what, suspended you? Closed down the channel? What I read was they banned you. What does that even mean? What does that mean? On TikTok, we call it a perma-bans because there's two different types of bans. You can be temporarily blocked from posting for a couple of days, or you can be permanently banned where they literally shut down your account. You can't even log in. So they permanently shut down my account. What happened was, because here's the thing with TikTok is they're trying to make, they're trying to create ways they can better enforce their community guidelines. But what I think they're actually trying to do is to find more efficient ways to enforce their community guidelines, which has created an opening for people who can't handle

discourse. So what people did was they mass reported my account. And if you mass report an account enough times, it triggers a ban. My account got shut down. What was it? Do you know what was it that did that? I did a video, a TikTok about the Lion King because some lady was trying to gatekeep the circle of life and I'm like this is a Disney song we're not doing this and that yeah and people got up in arms basically saying like this is this doesn't belong to just anyone this is a Disney song and I mentioned how you know this is an American song it's a it's Disney it's American culture people like it's African culture I'm like yes it's an an app like why do I have to explain this to you? It's an American production company. It's an American recording studio. Well, not American recordists, but American

record label pushed out by the United States. This is, this is, it's Disney. It's American. People were just, we're not having it. And so I think that's what triggered people to just mass report my account for no reason. Do you, how do you know that? I don't honestly, because when I tried to reach out to TikTok to ask, like, how did this that? I don't, honestly, because when I tried to reach out to TikTok to ask, like, how did this happen? I didn't get a response. I can only guess. But I know that was the video that blew up right before everything happened. Here is that video. Are you seriously trying to gatekeep a Disney song? It's an American classic. Yes, it's in two different languages, recorded on three different continents, but it is an American produced song. Disney is American culture. It is one of America's greatest contributions to the world. And you say we can't

have anything. This song isn't for black people. It wasn't even written by black people. Did you miss the part where it said Elton John and Tim Rice, the composer and the lyricist, two white dudes. The entire movie directed by two white dudes, produced by a white person, written by three white people. The Disney Corporation founded by a white guy even the language has nothing to do with you it's english and zulu zulu being a language native to the southern part of the african continent if you are the american descendant of a slave nine out of ten your genetic ancestry has absolutely nothing to do with the southern part of the african continent that one out of ten is most likely mozambique and madagascar still nothing do with Zulu. You can't gatekeep that which does not belong to you. If you want to gatekeep

something, create it yourself. Okay, so do you get to appeal? You go to TikTok and say, yo, I've got almost a million followers. What did I say? What did I do? What was ban worthy? And what happens? I think if you catch it in time, if you go to your notifications, you can appeal it. I didn't get that opportunity. So what I had to do was actually email TikTok and ask for my account to get unbanned or for them to review it. And I put out, I'm set up a backup account on TikTok. So I have a backup account just in case anything happens. I went to my Instagram and I shared a video on both of those accounts to,

if you want to email TikTok to help me get my account unbanned, do it. And I had a lot of people respond. If I had to guess, they may probably got at least 2000 emails, at least that much with my name in the subject line. And the thing is I have a lot of, I have a pretty good community on TikTok as far as people who might follow, who follow me and I follow them. So I was able to reach out to a couple of them and say, hey, this just happened. And they were able to help me get the word out very, very quickly. And so my account was back less than, so Saturday I had a TikTok free day, basically. Then my backup account was temporary blocked

from posting until I think yesterday, because TikTok took down two videos. One of the videos they took down was the Alyssa Milano video. They said, you know, oh, this is harassment and bullying. And I'm like, this is still up on my other account. And two, Alyssa Milano follows me on TikTok. If she was bothered, she wouldn't be following me. So. Did you ever hear from her? She's never, she, all she does is follow me. We've never spoken. Not yet. I'm sure it'll happen one day. That's fascinating. So that's crazy. So do you feel like you're on thin ice with TikTok now? Are you on double secret probation or how does that stand? I don't think I'm on thin ice because I know I've done nothing wrong and I know how to rectify it and I know how to fix it. So I'm not scared, but I'm also kind of on thin ice. I feel like I have to be careful and that's what makes me upset. Isn't it so crazy? I bet Robin DiAngelo

is not on thin ice with TikTok. I bet she could go out there as a white woman and say whatever the hell she wants. But you as a black woman who pushed back on some of these narratives against, you know, Milano, DiAngelo, what have you, you got to watch it. Yeah. Like, I don't want to watch what I say. I just want to say what I want. It's the beauty of being an American. Exactly. Well, I'm glad you're reinstated. I mean, that's first and foremost, and that you push back and that you got your army, you know, your TikTok army or Insta army to fight back because that's the only way. There's always, I think, more people in your camp than the ones who are pushing to cancel you. You know, that was one thing we saw. There was an organized campaign to get Piers Morgan booted out of his job. It was like 40,000 people have complained. It's like, you know how many more millions are behind the scenes right now, just living their lives. And they don't know that

peers needs them. You know, they're not, they're not writing letters to go get somebody canceled or fight back against the cancellation. So you were smart to line up your army to motivate them, um, mobilize them and, and you won. Um, but, but I got to ask you just about some of your background, Savannah, cause I find you so interesting. Do you, do you work outside? Cause I'm sure you could support yourself with some of the ads just based on these channels and so on. No, I mean, no, not yet.

No. So what do you do to support yourself? I do have a full-time job. So I kind of work in STEM kind of in customer service. Yeah. I've been trying to get out of customer service for years, but you know, when you're good at something, you just fall right back in. That's true. And so do you feel like people know who you are? You ever run into somebody who's like, Hey, aren't you the, Oh goodness. At least twice a weekend, at least twice a weekend.

It's I feel so bad because I'm so awkward in public. I'm very introverted and I'm a little shy. I've mentioned on my TikTok a couple of times. If you see me in public, you have to engage me in conversation because I will not engage you in conversation and ignore my face. I have no idea what my face says. If my face says, don't talk to me, me and my face are not the same person. Just come talk to me. But it's usually you look familiar or I follow you on TikTok or are you on TikTok? I follow you. So are you, you're from the South originally, right? You were, well, you recently moved to New Orleans, but you're from Charlotte? Yeah. I was born in Columbia, raised in Charlotte. So

Charlotte's home. Now, do you think that there's something, I mean, you tell me, but like, Van Jones is a friend of mine, a CNN commentator, you probably know who he is. But he's, he's definitely a liberal guy. And he's way more in line with like Black Lives Matter, and so on, then I think you are. But he's, he's very reasonable in his approach, I think, to most issues. I mean, I know him pretty well. And I think as a black man who grew up in Tennessee, he just sees the world a little bit differently. He just was surrounded by people who think differently and he learned to get along with folks and I don't know, just chart his own path. Do you think there's any connection between, you know, you being in the South and raised in the South and your more heterodox views on race

issues? This is the beauty of America, even though our country is so large, we're a United Nation. You being in the South and raised in the South and your more heterodox views on race issues. This is the beauty of America, even though our country is so large, we're a United Nation. Different parts of our country have vastly different histories. And the history of the South is very traumatic. We went through something as a region so traumatic over the last, what, 100, 150 years. Well, let's start with, you know, 1776, you know. Last 100, 150 years, I think at this point, the South is exhausted. And it's at the point now where it's like, people here, we get along to get along. The racism of the South isn't what it was 50, 60 years ago. And I think that does

influence the way I see the world because I live in a place where all that petty stuff really just doesn't matter. It mattered at one point, but we had to go through something very traumatic as a region for us to realize that none of that matters. It's all superficial. It doesn't change who we are. We just have to love one another and respect one another in spite of whatever our differences are. We just have to love one another and respect one another in spite of whatever our differences are. And how about your parents? Is it true that you're from a military family? My mom served in the army. My father served. He passed when I was four and a half. He's buried in Calverton. My stepfather was in the Air Force. He retired. No, he didn't retire. He's a veteran. Okay. Yep. And I mean, do you think that had an influence on you in a good or a bad way? I think in a good way, honestly. It gave me an appreciation for what the word sacrifice means. And it gave me appreciation for our country. I think when you come from a military family, whether, you know, your parents

are still active or they've retired, they've seen so much of the world and they almost have, my mom has such a desire to share so much of it with me, as opposed to, I think, parents who stay in the same place and don't go anywhere, which sounds awful. But definitely coming from a family that's at a very young age, went out into the world. I can definitely see how my mom was so eager to make sure me and my brother experienced the world as well. Because for her, the world opened up almost immediately because she was in all these different places. That's a good point. And you do.

You learn about sacrifice and you learn about honor and love of country, which isn't taught enough to this upcoming generation. I mean, I saw some poll. What was the poll? My team's probably got it, but it was like 34% of young people say they have pride in America and in the flag. Oh, really? 34%. They don't understand. You know, they don't get it or they're willfully blind to it. I don't know, but it doesn't happen in military families. No, because you grow up, you grow up grateful. I did anyway. I grew up grateful and very appreciative. And I grew up with a mom who encouraged me to

express myself and be myself and to not be held back. You know, this is, forgive this weird question, but do you feel like the loss of your father at a young age changed the way you think? It's a good question. I'm not going to lie. I often think about how different my life would be had he still been alive. They divorced. I didn't know this until I was like maybe 10 or 11, but they divorced shortly before he passed. But he was very active. He was a good dad and he loved the military. He would have retired had he not passed. But his passing definitely shapes the way I see other men and the way I form relationships. And the more I've learned about him as I've gotten older has definitely wanted me to be the absolute best person because when I was little he was just he was a ghost kind of you know he was just my dad

he was this thing that this thing this person that everyone knew but me. But now as I've kind of gotten to know him on my own terms, he was such a good man. And the world was so robbed, not just me, but the whole world was robbed of this good man. And it's wanted me to be the best person that I can be. It's helped me to appreciate me a lot more because I see so much of himself in me. Because I think when you lose a parent, you often feel like there's half of you just doesn't make sense. More of me is starting to make sense the more I get to know him

after death. Wow. Wow. I feel like people who lose, it doesn't have to be a parent, but certainly a parent would qualify. Somebody that they love at a very young age, just have a different perspective on things and on what matters. And I feel like I see some of that wisdom in your videos. It's just sort of like, come on, get busier. Well, I have to say, I don't think you're going to be in customer service for much longer. And I actually predict you're not going to be a social media influencer for much longer. I want you to run for office. I want you to do something. I do. I want like, I see your influence expanding well beyond the digital world. You're too sage. It's you've got to, you've got to put it to to seriously good use. More people need to have

access to you. Oh, goodness. Everyone wants me to run for president. I'm like, no, the last thing they need to do is give me access to the nuclear codes. Why not? Wisdom, y'all. That is not wise. Better you than Joe Biden, who doesn't appear to be all there at the moment. Bless his heart. Bless his heart. Listen, I would love to see your bold and awkward bunny face in there doing stuff near the nuclear codes or otherwise. But I feel like great things are in your future, Savannah. I'm honored to know you. Thank you so much.

Up next, the Biden administration has passed a law that provides for loan relief for black farmers. But if you're white, you can't even apply. When some white farmers and ranchers filed lawsuits and said, hey, that that actually seems discriminatory and unconstitutional. The secretary of agriculture, Tom Vilsack, responded, where were you over the last hundred years when your black counterparts were being discriminated against and we didn't hear a peep from you? OK, so our guest today is 29 years old. And the answer is she wasn't alive, but she is suffering thanks to what happened by our government voluntarily in the COVID shutdown. Liesl Carpenter joins us next with her lawyer on where all this is going. Liesl, Will, how are you?

Good. Doing great. How are you? I'm great. Thank you guys so much for doing this and for being here. Absolutely. Of course. Okay. So let me just set the stage for our audience and then we'll get into your specific story, Liesl. So we've got, it seems to me that most parties involved in these lawsuits agree, even the plaintiffs who are represented by lawyers generally agree that the USDA has a history of discriminating against black farmers, that the federal government has a bad history of

doing this and other farmers of color. But the argument essentially is that we cannot remedy that in 2021 by doing more discriminating on the basis of race, this time against non-persons of color, against white farmers and ranchers. And that's not just an opinion. That happens to be the law. The Supreme Court has so found in numerous cases. And the Congress kind of ignored that Supreme Court precedent, in my view, in doing this. Well, you're the lawyer, so I'm going to get to you on that in a second. But that's sort of where we stand. We've had four lawsuits filed, as far as I can count so far. Yours is one of them, one in Texas, one in Wisconsin, one in Florida, and now yours out of Wyoming. And the plaintiffs who are

objecting to this policy, this now law, are winning. They're winning across the board. There has not been one court yet that found that this was okay. Because as I said, the Supreme Court seems pretty clear that you can't do this, except in the most narrow of circumstances, not this broad brush like let's fix a very bad history with a sweeping law that discriminates against whites. OK, so let's start with you, Liesl, on your specific family situation. You are you're a rancher out in Wyoming. How big is your ranch? How old are you and what kind of ranching? So I am 29 years old. I have a 20 month year old or old son. And I have been ranching my

entire life. So I'm a sixth generation rancher. My family homesteaded the ranch that I live on right now in 1894, and they immigrated from Norway and Sweden. We run on 2,400 acres split between Albany County and Larimer County, Colorado, and Albany County in Wyoming. And we run cow-calf, which is mama cows and baby calves. And then we also have yearlings, which are any calf that's over the age of one. And then we also have bulls that we run with our cows as well. And then we also have a haying operation, which means we harvest our native grass hay. And we do that normally coming up here in a few weeks. And that's what we sell. And we also feed it directly through our cows. Okay. Let me ask you a Yankee kind of question from a girl who grew up in New York state, which does have a lot of farmland where I'm from in upstate, but I never partook in it.

When you say it's a cow calf operation, what, what happens to the cows? Is it, is it a beef ranch situation or what is it? It's beef. So normally in the reference of cow-calf, it's generally beef. So we run Angus cattle with also a Hereford. And so in our production, cow-calf is a very long-term investment. We operate year-round. And so we will breed cows and we will get calves and then we will raise those calves on the cow. And then generally in the fall, some people will hold onto those calves after they wean them, which means, you know, separate them from their mother.

And we will hold them. We like to hold them for 45 days before we put them to the market. And then some of them, we also keep through the next year and raise ourselves and then market as grass fed or corn fed beef. All right. Then they die of natural causes and that's how they want to go to the supermarket. Let's just go with that. I eat red meat, but I'm one of those people who likes to pretend it doesn't end the way it does. It's, you know, it's a story for another day. Okay. So you're a rancher, you're in this business. It's not an easy business and it certainly hasn't been an easy business over the past year and a half for any rancher or farmer in the United States. But when, just talk to us before

we got to the COVID year, how were you doing? So our markets are always affected by literally everything. And so one of the biggest points that I would like to point out to the cow-calf and anybody in production cattle is that our market is basically controlled by all the meatpacking industry. And so our market is our packers, there's only four of them that make up over 80% of the meat packing industry. So they can control our prices on what we get. And so we've had a lot of weird things happen with the packing industry. And so prior to COVID, there was a fire at one of the packing houses and it sent our cattle prices through the floor. Like it was horrible. And it was just one packing house

that was affected. And so, you know, it's wrong how many packer, how the four packers are basically gaining up and saying, you guys only get this much money, but we can make over a thousand dollars per head. And that's during the COVID year, yet we are struggling to even get a dollar profit on our cattle. And so, um, so prior to COVID, we had very up and down markets. And so like that year I'm referencing with the fire in Kansas at that production facility or the processing plant. It really it really kicked us in the knee and it hurt. And so we are going to having to deal with that. And our market hadn't really recovered. And then we also are really affected by drought conditions.

And so when Mother Nature doesn't give us the rain, the snow, any of the necessary water to grow plants on a range land or even growing crops, it affects our cattle market. And so when everything is extremely dry, producers are selling these animals to the market. And so our supply drastically increases. And so our price per head goes drastically down as well. And so in a few years, if people keep selling and selling, then of course, according to the law of supply and demand, your prices will go up, but we haven't seen that. And so the packers are just making a killing and it's wrong. So the ranchers aren't. Okay. so so the government is looking at this. And I know that there was some COVID relief in the in the Trump plan that went out. But the the argument here has been no matter what the relief is, whether it's COVID relief for ranchers and farmers or it's been prior efforts to do something about the racial discrimination that's historic in this industry, it never quite works.

It never quite winds up helping, in particular, black farmers. And so Biden comes in and says, all right, it's actually based on a bill that Raphael Warnock, the guy who won in Georgia, who everybody thought was going to lose, but he won in those runoffs, he submitted this bill and said, we got to give about $4 billion to black farmers and other farmers of color as a remedy, as a remedy for past discrimination. And really, this law doesn't pay any attention to whether they are hurting economically today. So just by way of example, Meghan Markle could turn some of her $16 million estate in Montecito into farmland and apply for relief under this law.

And she would get it because she has the right skin color. You, however, who've been in this industry for six generations, you know, you've got a young kid. You've been struggling financially going into this. You can't get it because you have different melanin, even though you don't have Meghan Markle's money. OK, so let let let me bring in your lawyer, Will, because, well, as I see it. You know, the justification from everybody is there have been decades, decades of discrimination by these federal programs. And there's no matter what they try to do, the funding never reaches farmers of color.

And so this is going to allow them to go directly to the farmers of color and not only pay off their loans, but apparently they get 120 percent of their loans paid. How does that work? Yeah, that's right. So as we were reading the statute, we were thinking, okay, well, you know, I guess they're going to get their loans paid off. And then we saw the 120% number, which you'll notice is higher than 100%. And the agriculture department has said, well, that's to cover the taxes. Because when we pay off your 100% of your loan, that's a taxable event. So now we are going

to subsidize your tax bill as well. So that was interesting that you actually get a windfall from owing money to the Farm Service Agency. You're exactly right, Megan. This is just about melanin. This is just about whether or not you meet one of these racial classifications that has nothing to do with whether you contracted COVID, whether your farm or your ranch suffered from COVID, whether you suffered from discrimination by the USDA. It is a blunt instrument. You could have taken out your loan last year, and all of a sudden you would be eligible, regardless of circumstances, for forgiveness now. So even in the heyday of affirmative action, I don't think I've ever seen a program that is this blunt and is this designed to divide us by race and treat us differently on the basis of that race. Why? I mean, I learned back in law school that when you've got a program

like this, if you've got if you're trying to openly discriminate on the basis of race, which is definitely what they're doing, you have to pass it's called strict scrutiny in the law in order for your behavior as the government to be upheld to be allowed. And that is a very tough standard for someone to pass by design. It's basically there's a presumption that you've done something unlawful, right? If you're if they're applying strict scrutiny and you're making a race based classification, the laws is basically going to presume that you interest for doing it and has to be very narrowly tailored to the specific problem you're looking at. It's very hard to get your law upheld under that standard. So you tell me whether all the courts so far, these four courts, and I know you haven't yet got a ruling, but have applied this strict scrutiny. And has it survived that initial scrutiny in any one of these cases? Well, the answer is no, it hasn't survived, which is good news. And I'll talk a

little bit about a Tennessee case that my firm is also involved in a second. But the key there is that you and I took very similar law school courses because those cases all say that you cannot get out of this very, very demanding review just by pleading that your program is beneficial to minorities. So my firm, Mountain States Legal Foundation, litigated a case called Adirondack in the 1990s, where the government was saying, it's okay to give preferences to minorities when handing out federal contracts because it benefits those minorities. And so that shouldn't be subject to the same type of review. That argument lost. It lost in the 90s. It has been the law for over two decades that regardless of whether you say your program is good or bad for minorities,

it is subject to this very demanding strict scrutiny review. And the courts that have looked at this in Wisconsin and Florida and Texas have all said, that's the law that applies. The government, to its credit, has acknowledged that, although they have resisted the idea that it's presumptively unconstitutional. They keep saying, no, we meet strict scrutiny. This is a very compelling interest and we are very narrowly tailored to it. So they are fighting back even on those grounds. That's the only, that's really all they can say because there is a constitutional ban on race discrimination. You're not allowed to discriminate on the basis

of race in the United States. It's very, very clear. But let me put it to you this way, Will, because I think some of our listeners will be thinking, well, we know that, for example, at the college level, some race discrimination is allowed, right? a sort of plus factor that colleges can use in deciding who gets in. So it's not banned in all circumstances. And so why couldn't you credibly say this is like an affirmative action program? Yeah, well, it's true that race considerations in higher education, for instance, are in some very narrow cases permissible. So in the Texas case a couple years ago, where the University of Texas has a small racial preference, the Supreme Court said, you know, it's such a small preference and so unique to the student that we will go ahead and uphold it. In a Michigan case 20 years ago, they said the same thing. But those are cases where it's a factor of a factor. And the court has

been very clear that you cannot have a quota. You cannot say, okay, we're going to admit 20% Asian Americans and then 20% African Americans and go on down the line. You have to give each person their unique evaluation before you can make a decision. So this program for farmers and ranchers throws caution to the wind and says, no, we aren't going to make any individual determinations. We aren't going to even look behind the curtain at what actually happened on your farm or ranch. We're just going to cut the checks. And that is not going to pass muster given these affirmative action cases and how narrowly they've been drawn. You mentioned that University of Texas case. In that case, the Supreme Court rejected the interest in remedying societal discrimination,

saying it has no logical stopping point. And there was a quote as follows. The way to stop discrimination on the basis of race is to stop discriminating on the basis of race. That's exactly it. I've said this so many times, just in the larger context of America today. You don't solve past discrimination by more discrimination. The answer to racism is not more racism. That's not a Megyn Kelly thought. That's a Supreme Court thought. That's a founder's thought. That's in our documents, essentially, the principle, which is race discrimination is wrong, period. And so one of the main questions is, so what should they do if you've got this

history of discrimination? And it seems like everybody agrees it's bad. You look at the Department of Agriculture and black farmers, you're not going to like what you see. It's not going to make you feel very good about America. But what do we do now? So if you can't pass a law saying, OK, forgive the loans of the black farmers because there really aren't that many, maybe 14000 in the United States. Forgive their loans. No, you can't do that. Say three courts so far. What can they do? Well, that's a good question. Certainly the history of racism from the Agriculture Department is odious and we certainly don't want to defend that. Now, there was a lawsuit in the 2000s that the Obama administration settled called the Pigford case.

Pigford. And in that case, they issued millions of dollars in payments to black farmers who had suffered direct discrimination. And so I'm not opposed to payments like that. The government says, well, yeah, but that payment wasn't enough. And state taxes ended up consuming a lot of those payments. So if they wanted to supplement the settlement agreement, that would be one thing. Or if they were saying, well, last year's aid, even though Nancy Pelosi's house was part of that process, didn't go to African-American farmers, we've constructed it the wrong way. They could have a race-neutral policy of

giving aid to people who didn't get it last year, or they could give a race-neutral policy about people who have actually suffered from COVID. And the government says that's disproportionately minorities, but that's a race-neutral way of getting at some of these problems. And the constitution lets you do things in race-neutral ways of getting at some of these problems. And the Constitution lets you do things in race-neutral ways. But it's when you classify us by race that you really divide us and you actually create more tension than remedy when you do that. Because look at Liesl's case. Liesl is directly suffering from COVID-19 in terms of her farm and ranch. And the only reason she can't have that remedy is because

of her skin color. I've actually had people come and say, why doesn't she just self-identify as a minority so that she can get this aid? Obviously, Liesl is an honest person. She's not going to do that. But it is a little bit silly to say, if you were just born into a different skin color, you'd be fine. You'd get your 120 percent payout. And that's just not legal. That's not something that our Constitution permits. So you can be a black farmer who's who's doing well right now, who maybe just launched a year ago and you'll get the money. But you can be a white farmer, a rancher who's been suffering for years trying to make ends meet, trying to help Americans put food on the table and nowhere near as well off as my imaginary black farmer. And you can't get the money. Well, as you put it best, you could be a member of the Royal British family and still get

this aid. Barack Obama could start a farm in his downtime. He's going to get the money. Right. So the loan had to have been taken out last year before. But yes, the answer is any person could have been eligible for this loan, regardless of their individual circumstances. So what, I mean, you tell me, Liza, because I read the, you wrote an op-ed in the New York Post and you said, this law, Biden's law, is seemingly designed to racially humiliate Americans like me. How so? wrong. And you've been talking about the USDA's past discrimination. Well, a big part of it is women like me have been discriminated against. Not me specifically, but women in the past, and they're completely overlooking that aspect of it. And so being a white woman who's recognized as being socially disadvantaged, it does humiliate me because I should be a part of that group. And then,

you know, I look down at my neighbors who are struggling, who are barely getting by, and I don't know if they're going to make it another year. And it's humiliating to them because they don't feel like they deserve it enough either. And, you know, it's just completely wrong that they are doing this. And, you know, humiliation in so many ways of this is it's just wrong. And I wish that they would have done a better job of structuring this so it doesn't put us in this position to make us look bad, to make us look like we're needy, to make us look like it's a welfare payment or any of that. It has nothing to do with that. And so when you bring a voice to it, people see that and then they're like judging you on everything else. And so, you know, it's just a vicious cycle of humiliation and it's and it should have never happened. Well, I'm sure you didn't expect to be fighting a race war on top of that, right? It like, no one wants to bring a case like this and sort of,

you're not trying to take away anything from black farmers and ranchers. You're trying to, as I understand it, to make this a more need-based analysis, which would ignore skin color, right? Or at least it, maybe it could be a factor, but you wouldn't be ruled out right from the get-go just because you weren't born with the right skin color. Yep. Well, the nature of these lawsuits is that sometimes you only have certain tools in your toolbox. So we've asked for the program to be stopped currently. And at the end of the day, if the government wants to expand the program to everyone, regardless of race, that's something that they could also do.

Okay, but here's how Secretary Tom Vilsack of agriculture has responded. And this guy, people should know has his own history. He's been accused of not doing enough when he was in this role under Obama. And they don't think he was particularly supportive of the African American community back then, including in this role. So this guy's on his heels. This is how he has responded to people like you, Liesl. It's a wonder where these farmers, or in your case, ranchers, were over the last 100 years when their black counterparts were being discriminated against. And we didn't hear a peep from white farmers about how unfortunate that circumstance was. He goes on, now we're having

white farmers stepping up and asking why they're not included in the program. Well, it's pretty clear why, because they've had the access of all the programs for the last 100 years. It's important for us to acknowledge the cumulative effect of discrimination. And this is one way Congress is directing us to do that. Your thoughts on that one, Liesl? So it really drives me nuts how they make it completely about just a certain race being discriminated against. The USDA has a long history of discriminating, not just against Blacks, but also Native Americans and Hispanics and women. And so they're not even including every aspect of it. And, you know,

they, I would love to hear the, their statistic on how much CFAP money went to women because that statistic is never included. Um, it's only a broad spectrum. Yes. That's what the cares act last year that Trump did. Yes. And so they're always saying like, well, 95% of this funding went to white farmers. Well, what about women like me that are the majority owner that are the ones making the decision on a day-to-day basis? They've never included that number. And we have been discriminated against by the USDA and that group is considered, but they're completely omitting us. And it's only because I'm white. And so when they say we're trying to make the discrimination claims, you know, in the past and remedy that they're not including everybody that's even been affected by it. And so

to me, if they were to include everyone, it would be a lot different. But they're not. And so they're just choosing. Yeah, they're choosing among different minority groups or historically disadvantaged groups in the agriculture industry, based on, you know, what Raphael Warnock proposed is essentially it. Can I ask you about this, though, Will? Because you see this stat a lot that they say the vast majority of prior COVID farming aid and the Trump's in Trump's CARES Act went to white farmers. Historically, the loans have gone to white farmers. You know, the numbers are are overwhelming that that that has been white farmers who have been helped instead of black farmers by the government. And when I look at the percentage, like you look at it on a percentage basis,

it's never going to end well for the black farmers because black farmers, if they only make up 2% of agriculture, then they wouldn't get much more. I mean, the 95 to 98, 95 to 98% of the eight is going to wind up in the hands of white farmers and ranchers because that's how the industry looks. Fans of the new term that's going around called equity like to point to statistics like this, where it's like X percentage of something went to non-whites, and that's disproportionate. But here you're exactly right, where the vast majority, I think something like 95% of farmers are white and 97% of CARES Act aid went to whites. But again, that was a racially neutral program that Speaker Pelosi had a strong hand in. I don't think there's an allegation that

Speaker Pelosi's house was full of white supremacists when they passed the CARES Act. The argument about the 100 years really gets on my nerves, though, from Secretary Vilsack. You know, Liesel's 29 years old. She wasn't around 100 years ago to raise an objection when USDA was discriminated against an African American. But the program goes far beyond African-Americans. It also covers Asian-Americans and Native Americans, Alaska Natives. You know, it's hard for me to imagine the mismatch that's going on between what Congress says actually happened and what this program does. Remember, these are people that actually got the loans. You know, it's very possible that people who suffered the discrimination don't have farms anymore. Sad. Yes, that's right. And then should be noted in many circumstances entered into usurious situations. In other words, highly exploitative situations to get the loans they needed. And that's a sad reality of our of our history, that black farmers couldn't get the loans

from the government, went to other sources. And it did set them back. It did send them back for generations. Keep going. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. But there's no there's generations. Keep going. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. But there's no aid that's ever gone out previously that's 120% of your loan value.

That is not a thing that's happened before for anyone. Right. And your point is if the people who are going to be helped by this particular law are people who did get loans. This is the farmers of color who did get loans and now are going to get them repaid by the federal taxpayer plus 20%. And, you know, you could make the case to help the agricultural industry and the farmers and ranchers in it.

But to say that no person of color has to prove any of this is need based is pretty extraordinary. Like they can be killing it and they're still going to get the money plus 20%. And you can be suffering as a white person and you're not going to get a dime. So, all right. As I understand it, there are the four lawsuits. There was the one in Florida, which granted a national preliminary injunction. And that holds until there's a trial in the case because the judge there, Marsha Morales Howard, said the Constitution's promise of equal justice under the law is that the government will treat people as individuals, not simply as members of their racial group, citing a Supreme Court case from 1995. So

if this happens, like what what's going to be the first thing to actually throw out the law? When does the law actually get thrown out and redone or, you know, they try to do it need based, however they need to save it? Well, yeah. So to be clear, it's a mountainous legal foundation, my firm and another firm called the Southeastern Legal Foundation out of Atlanta have teamed up in both Liesel's case and then a Tennessee case called Holman, where we continue to await our own ruling on a preliminary injunction. So the Florida and Texas courts have issued preliminary injunctions. We would be the a preliminary injunction. So the Florida and Texas courts have issued preliminary injunctions. We would be the third out of Tennessee. So those orders, as you point out, Megan, do halt the program temporarily until the end of the case. And so the end of the case could

involve discovery, whether that's interviewing Secretary Bilsak or trying to discover evidence from the FSA itself in terms of what sort of money is in the pot, has to go through the legal process. And at the end of the day, you have a trial. And then you have a ruling from a judge. So if the judge says, yep, there's no change. This was an unconstitutional program all along. All you do is make that preliminary injunction a permanent one, and the program is halted. Congress, or sorry, the USDA can't go forward. And then we have justice, you know, quote-unquote justice. We worked really hard. We spent a lot of time putting ourselves back to square one. Now, of course, the government could say, okay, we want to do something else with aid like a racially neutral policy based on need.

But, yeah, the idea is that this program can't go forward as it is written. And the preliminary injunction preserves the status quo, the current status quo, until a judge can make a ruling on the program itself. Up next, we're going to talk to Liesl about how her ranch is actually doing and whether she's in danger of losing it if they don't see this relief law turned around or expanded to include those who are suffering financially. Keep in mind, suffering financially in large part because of what the government did, right? So why isn't it helping all of them, at least those who need it? That's next. But before we get to that,

we've got an exciting real talk for you today. And we're excited about it because it's about our show, which if you're listening, you may care about as well. You may have heard that this week we announced an exciting partnership with SiriusXM. And I am really excited about this and I'm really excited about SiriusXM. So first and foremost, the show is still the show. Sirius XM. And I am really excited about this. And I'm really excited about Sirius XM.

So first and foremost, the show is still the show. It's still under my control entirely. The editorial control is 100% mine. I'm still going to be covering every single issue the way we've been covering them on this show. But we're excited because we have this blue chip brand now behind us who loves it all and believes in free discussion and conversation. And that's the reason why they wanted to partner with us. So the podcast is expanding to this starts in September, five days a week. Yay. By popular demand, a lot of our listeners have been asking for that. And we're going to launch video. So that's awesome, too. You're gonna be able to check us out on YouTube if that's how you prefer to consume your news or this program. And most excitingly, this partnership with Sirius is going to turn the podcast into a radio product as well.

So what that means is that you're going to be able to listen to the podcast live if you want from 12 to 2 on Sirius Eastern Time, 12 noon to 2 p.m. Eastern on Sirius XM Radio. So if you've got Sirius, you can listen to it there. If you don't have Sirius, you can subscribe to Sirius and listen to it. And that could be fun because you'll hear us do it live without a net. And the good thing is we're going to be taking listener calls on that show so I can interact with you guys live. And I'm really looking forward to that. Like I love getting to know the audience and I love the reviews for that reason. I think we're going to,

it's going to be really fun to hear directly from you. So we'll have the call lines and all that fun stuff. And if you prefer just taking it in podcast form, the great news is you don't have to change a thing. The podcast version of the show remains free, available to you on all platforms that you can now download podcasts on. So we're not just going to be behind a paywall that you can no longer access, you know, come September.

Nothing's going to change in your life other than you'll get more of us, you'll get more ways to consume us, you'll get a more expanded access to us via, you know, phone calls and calling in and all that. And we're also going to bring some of this to you even before September. So over the summer, we're going to expand to four days a week. And we're going to start putting out some extended clips on YouTube. So you can check that out. And we'll start sort of building up that platform. It's just my my show my channel on YouTube, and sort of expanding as we go, right, it's going to be a little bit later in the day. We'll release the podcast. We're going to start releasing the new shows around 4 p.m. Eastern time on all podcast platforms beginning in July, except for Friday. We'll still do a morning release on Fridays. So it shouldn't affect you because if you like getting it first thing in the morning,

you'll just listen to the day before in the morning. Anyway, all of this is awesome. I think it's a great brand. This is a brand that's stood behind, you know, people of all political stripes saying all sorts of things. They have a record of having a pretty steely spine. But in the end, it doesn't really matter because I'm in charge of the editorial. So don't worry, I'll still be me. You'll just get a lot more of us and take it in however you want. Okay, so that's our exciting announcement. Hope you'll just get a lot more of us and take it in however you want. Okay, so that's our exciting announcement. Hope you'll continue listening and I just want to say thank you

because without all of you guys we wouldn't have been offered this opportunity and you know the show you know you've heard me say it's doing well but it's literally one of the top podcasts in the country not just for news one of the top podcasts

in all of the United States. So that's thanks to you guys. We're on to something and I feel like we've all been in on this together. And our exciting platform only grows as does our power, our influence, and just the good times that we're going to continue having together. All right. Back to our guests in one minute. First this. If they had to redo the law, you know, Biden and this Congress, could they could they pass something that is just need based that hat that allows a plus in the way that college programs can for race to acknowledge the history here?

Would that, in your view, be constitutional? You know, I would need to see something before passing judgment on it, even though I'm a very judgy person. I'm not sure that I understand. Yeah, so it would definitely have a greater likelihood, again, given those affirmative action precedents where we saw courts say, well, you can put a tiny thumb on the scale for race if it's really related to a compelling interest in a narrow tailoring. There, the interest is about diversity in college education. So I don't think you could you could use the same thing if a program were really about,

you know, we want a diversity of farmers or diversity of ranchers that I'm just not sure how persuasive that would be to report. Well, and, you know, it's an interesting debate because now you get back into can you today remedy the harms of the past by some form? I mean, still, that is some form of discrimination against white farmers and ranchers who won't who won't get the thumb on the scale through no fault of their own. They're not the ones who made those decisions. You know, look at Vilsack when he was there under Obama. He made some of those decisions.

Right. So like Liesel made none of these decisions and she might benefit because she's a woman and she's hurting financially. But I do wonder, is it problematic to try to remedy historical discrimination in this way by making the current generation, by dividing them based on skin color?

Yeah, you know, there are court cases that say if it's really recent in time, then we might give you a little bit more leeway. Obviously, when you need to desegregate the schools, right, because they've been segregated, you might have to take into account race right after in order to desegregate. Here, though, I agree with you.

You know, Liesel is not responsible for decisions made in the Carter administration or the Johnson administration. Liesel is trying to do the best she can for her ranch right now. And even a minor preference, I think, would be objectionable for her. I think that she ought to be considered at the front of the line because of the actual suffering that has happened on her ranch due to COVID-19. So if you're going to pass a COVID-19 relief bill, you ought to direct it at the people who suffered to COVID-19. So if you're going to pass a COVID-19 relief bill, you ought to direct it at the people who suffered from COVID-19. Right. Let's not forget that's what this was.

This wasn't just general, you know, just a gift of money. It was based on COVID relief. And just before I go back to Liesl on that, a question for you, because it seems to me the precedent being set in your case, Tennessee and elsewhere, Wyoming, Florida, and so on, could relate to the debate that's happening on reparations in the country right now, where we're talking about future reparations programs based entirely on a person's race. I mean, it's essentially collective guilt, collective innocence, collective punishment and rewards, you know, over 100 years after the Civil War ended. And I do think the law that you guys are going to create here, or at least have affirmed if the Supreme Court follows precedent, could put an end to those types of bills or laws working their way through right now.

What do you think? Yeah, I think that's a good point. You know, I have a feeling the government will do a better job trying to be a little bit more clever if it tries to do reparations than it did in this sort of last minute rush to get the American Rescue Plan Act signed in March. You know, I could see them saying, well, okay, we're only going to give the money to a descendant of a slave who was a slave from this year to that year. And maybe they'll try to say what's more connected to some of the past discrimination. I don't think that's

going to hold up. I do think any reparations plan is going to be subject to the same sorts of legal challenges that we're bringing here. And that's exactly how it should be. You know, dividing us up by race and treating us differently by giving us money on the basis of our skin color is very problematic. Well, I mean, there's only so much the government can do in today's day and age. I mean, I think about it from a woman angle. A woman could easily file a lawsuit and say, look, we've been second class citizens for the better part of our country's history. We just celebrated Independence Day, read the Declaration of Independence at our Fourth of July party. And of course, it's all men are created equal and governments of men and so on.

And there's a reason that for that women were second class citizens and have benefits, but was reflected in the way we lived and the laws that we had. There's only so much we can do about that now. You know, it's tough to go to this sitting government with people who were not born or around during those times and say, fix it just as a legal matter. It's just it's really impossible. That's the truth, Will. Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. And I think it does more harm than good. Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. Uh, and I think it does more harm than good. Yeah. And as you point out, you know, there have been lawsuits, women have filed lawsuits in the

past and we had, um, black people file lawsuits in, in Pickford and one and two, and that's a good way of trying to redress it. It doesn't always work in the moment, especially when you're dealing with a racist society or sexist society, which we were back then. Um, so yeah, I see the frustration of those weren't cure-alls because they were operating in a system that was against them to begin with. But it's sort of a bit-by-bit fight. You make progress bit-by-bit, and it's tough to look back in a sweeping manner

and say, with a magic wand there, it's solved because we have this little thing called the Constitution that doesn't allow you to do this stuff. It's just because it wasn't allowed back then. And they did it. Doesn't mean that we should now do it today out in the open. All right. So Lisa, let me go back to you and finish this up with how, how you guys are doing, how is your ranch doing today? And you know, how are you doing as a, as a young mom of a 20 month old? Well, you know, COVID it was, it was scary. I was really, really nervous

back in March when we were looking at our markets and they were going through the floor. And I was really nervous because, you know, we make our money on selling calves and providing beef for consumers. And when we have nowhere to market our animals, what do you do? You know, like you can only hold onto them for so long or cause it's going to cost you too much money or you haul them to the auction house and you lose every penny and then you have bills to pay. And, you know, our industry is extremely hard because we literally buy everything at retail and we sell our animals at wholesale. And so, you know, that's really hard to for the person who's not involved in our industry to understand because, you know, we have to buy vaccines. We buy medications. We buy feed. We pay for pasture. We pay for water. We pay for electricity. We pay for tractors. We pay for literally everything buy everything. We still had to go do everything

on a daily basis in hopes that our cattle would be worth something. And, you know, we were really rolling the dice, hoping and praying that the markets, we had at least hopefully make zero, you know, which is a terrible thing to hope, but, you know, you hope to break even. And, you know, it was really hard. And so I'd like to tell you an example. So for the same time period last year at COVID, our animals were about 30 cents per hundred weight or $30 per hundred weight, which is like 30 cents a pound lower. So if you sold a calf that was 550 pounds, you would have lost, you know, a lot of money. And so to put that into perspective, um, like a calf was sold for a dollar 47, um, a hundred weight and at 550 pounds, that means we lost $110 just on that calf alone without factoring into any other expenses and crude that year. And so, you know, that's really hard to fathom. So if you have 100

calves that you lost $110 on, that's $11,000. That's a lot of money. And for most people, that's enough to make them completely go under and not have money to make those payments. And so last year, if the government did not have that CFAP money, I know us and a lot of producers would have really struggled because that gave us a little extra. It didn't cover everything lost. It didn't even come close to it. But, you know, it gave us a little extra to, you know, pay other bills and pay things down. And, you know, we are very fortunate in our situation because of our location. We don't have the same exact extreme drought that other people faced last year. So we had hay that we could grow and feed to our cattle, but it cost an astronomical

amount because it was a drought. We had wildfires and people were buying it up like crazy. And then the cost of our cow and our calf was so low, it's hard to justify it on paper to keep it. And so right now, we are still making those tough decisions because part of our ground last year did burn in a wild fire that we lease and we have to sell down. And when you sell down an animal that you buy for a long-term investment, you lose so much money. And we were selling them in an extremely low market

for those cows. And so just on the cow side of it, there's the National Cattlemen's Beef Association and Oklahoma State University put out a figure that for 2020 and 2021, you lost at least $250 per cow. And that's insane. So if you have 100 head of cows, that's $25,000, you know, so that's a lot of money. And it's extremely hard to justify these expenses when our market is low. And so to answer your question, how are we doing? We're making really tough decisions and it's tough decisions that we don't like to make because what we have made our decision today will affect us five years down the road, 10 years down the road. It's not just this year that it's affecting us. It's affecting us forever. Thanks for staying with us this far. The end of the episode

and who's coming up on our next show is right after this quick break. The ranch has been in your family since 1894 this is your sole source of income is there is there danger that you're going to lose this thing well every day we wake up as a risk megan um you know like last year we had a wildfire uh it could have taken us completely out of production and we would have had to sell because if we lost all our cows, we would have no money. We would have no way to pay our bills. And so if we had a blizzard come through, that's a natural thing that we always is affecting us. We'll lose calves and cows. And a few years ago, there was a horrendous blizzard in the fall and so many

people lost their entire herds. And so every day we wake up, we are always at the risk of going out of business. And then when you throw the market issues in, of course, it's a real risk because you can't just keep throwing money at an investment and expect it to just keep losing money and losing money. Because if you're losing money, how do you feed yourself? And so, you know, it's extremely scary. And, you know, I am fortunate, like I said, to have a ranch that's been in our family a long time. But even though it's been in our family a long time, it doesn't mean that our family never struggled financially because my grandparents, they had to take out operating loans just to pay for groceries and to pay for fuel and to pay for all the other expenses

and they never were able to pay it off. And so those debts accrued through generations. And that's what I get to take over is their debt. And, you know, I'm not just paying my debts, I'm paying their debts that have been for 30 years. And that's a common thing. You know, what Vilsack is basically saying to you now is that where were your grandparents when it was even tougher for their Black counterparts who weren't getting any loans at all? They just sat there and they reaped the rewards of their skin color. And they said nothing about how unfortunate it was for their black counterparts. And that's why he and the government are in the position that they're in today and having to pass a law like this.

Think about how how silly that is to say that Liesl's grandmother and great-grandmother should have been going to officials 75 years ago to complain about USDA discrimination when it was happening. And that's why they need to suffer discrimination, why Liesl needs to suffer discrimination today, even though the pandemic didn't discriminate when it affected Liesl's farm. Now the government says we have to discriminate because your grandparents didn't do enough. Yeah. Like what if your grandparent did complain? Can you get the money? You should be checking your records. You never know. Listen, this whole thing is just so it's just so nefarious. I understand the goal. The goal is laudable, right? Trying to help these black farmers who, who have been victims of discrimination, maybe, you know, the, the, as a group, yes, on a case by case basis is how we judge these things in the law. But, um, the law is the law. You just, you're not allowed to do what they're doing. And that's why you guys keep winning and they have to, they have to be more

honest and frankly, more clever in coming up with meaningful solutions. So they can, they can abide by the principles that are behind the very founding of the country and for really good reasons. Liesl, I'm praying for you. I'm wishing you all the best. I hope it's a great, easy winter, I guess. We're going to get through the summer first, but I feel like this is going to be- Pray for no wildfires.

Yeah, exactly. So far, you guys seem to be batting a thousand. And Will, good luck to you. Thank you for the explanations. Thank you. All right. Don't miss the show on Friday because we've got Jason Whitlock coming back on along with Uncle Jimmy. That is part. That's his partner in the new podcast that he is launching. They talk about politics, faith, sports, all of it. So we're going to get into it with them. And I should mention, I meant to mention this before and I forgot. We had promised you that Marcus Luttrell was coming on and he is.

He is. We just postponed it a little because we have the chance to get both Marcus and his brother Morgan Luttrell. He has an identical twin on Together, talking about everything. Lone Survivor, his experience, their childhood, the whole bit. They're totally charming together. And my experience is,

just having listened to Morgan, you get a lot of interesting insights on Marcus's background and their family when you listen to him and the two of them. So we moved it back a little. It's postponed. It's not canceled. Love him.

Been in very close touch with him and his wife. And it's all good. We just moved it back a little. It's postponed. It's not canceled. Love him. Been in very close touch with him and his wife. And it's all good. We just moved it back a little bit. So that is coming. And stay tuned. And in the meantime, have a great weekend. And go ahead now and subscribe to the show before all the Johnny-come-latelys get here.

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