The MeidasTouch Podcast - Arm Ukraine Now with Ukrainian MP Inna Sovsun and Human Rights Lawyer Oleksandra Matviichuk (Bonus Episode)

Episode Date: April 23, 2022

On today's special bonus edition of the MeidasTouch Podcast, we welcome two Ukrainian leaders from inside Kyiv. First, we speak with Inna Sovsun. Sovsun is a Ukrainian professor and politician. She is a currently a Ukrainian Member of Parliament and serves on the Energy Committee. After that, we chat with Oleksandra Matviichuk, the Head of the Center for Civil Liberties in Ukraine. She was the recipient of the Democracy Defender award in 2016 by the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE). Matviichuk has dedicated the last 8 years of her life to documenting war crimes. If you enjoyed today’s episode please be sure to rate, review and subscribe! As always, thank YOU for listening. Remember to subscribe to ALL the Meidas Media Podcasts: MeidasTouch: https://pod.link/1510240831 Legal AF: https://pod.link/1580828595 The PoliticsGirl Podcast: https://pod.link/1595408601 The Influence Continuum: https://pod.link/1603773245 Kremlin File: https://pod.link/1575837599 Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen: https://pod.link/1530639447 Zoomed In: https://pod.link/1580828633 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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exclusions, and terms apply. Instacart, groceries that over-deliver. What's up, Midas Mighty? Welcome to the Midas Touch Podcast bonus edition. This is Brett, and today we have a very special episode for you because we are speaking with not one, but two incredible Ukrainians from inside Kyiv, and they are going to give us their firsthand accounts on what is happening on the ground as Russia continues to expand their deadly invasion. First, we're going to speak with Ina Sovtsyn. Sovtsyn is a Ukrainian professor and politician. She is currently a Ukrainian member of parliament and serves on the Energy Committee. After that, we'll chat with Oleksandra Matvychuk, who's the head of the Center for Civil Liberties in Ukraine.

She was the recipient of the Democracy Defender Award in 2016 by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. In her work, Oleksandra has dedicated the last eight years of her life to documenting war crimes and soon found the war crimes come straight to her door. For context, these interviews were recorded just prior to the beginning of the battle for Donbass. They provide incredible insight into the scope of Russian atrocities occurring day in and day out inside Ukraine and give us some much-needed perspective on how we, as citizens of the world, can truly be helpful to the people of Ukraine. Without further ado, let's get straight into it. Here's the first interview of our show with Ukrainian Member of Parliament, Ina Suvson.

We are joined by Ina Suvson, Ukrainian professor and politician. She's currently a Ukrainian Member of Parliament and member of the Energy Committee. Ines Subson, welcome to the Midas Touch podcast. Thank you for having me. Thanks. So I want to talk about what you tweeted out earlier. We're getting news about a potential chemical attack in Mariupol. What do you know about that? Well, not much. You have to realize that connection with Mariupol is rather, let's put it, fragmented. So getting any information for sure is very complicated because of the city being basically besieged for over 40 days. But we do know that they did spread some substance on top of a plant where the majority of the Ukrainian soldiers have been located for a couple of weeks now.

And we do know that many soldiers after that started having breathing problems. And luckily, we also know that they didn't die. So they survived. But at least three of them are still having trouble breathing. Information on the specific substance is, well, we cannot really know what exactly it was because, of course, they don't have a lab and the soldiers themselves cannot be knowledgeable of the types of chemicals that are being used. But we also know that apparently they did spread the substance somewhere further from where exactly the soldiers have been located. So we cannot know for sure whether the fact that they did not die because of that was

because it was just a bit further from where they were located or because it was just a way to scare them and they were not actually planning to kill them. We can't know that for sure. But what we also know is that I think 24 hours before that, one of the leaders of the so-called People's Republic started saying that, given the situation in Maribor right now, they are considering using what he says, chemical, he didn't say weapon, he said chemical troops, like the soldiers dealing with chemical weapons, apparently. So given those circumstances and this prehistory, we can assume that they have been trained to do something. But again, I don't want to be spreading information that I cannot be 100% sure of. Just stating the facts, the facts are as they are right now.

And the situation in Maripol, about 90% of the buildings have been destroyed. Dozens or thousands of civilians have been killed. And one of the points that you've made repeatedly is that this was avoidable. It did not have to be this way. And with the bravery of all of the Ukrainian people, the soldiers fighting for their land, all they've been asking for, all you've been asking for are weapons from the West. And look, you have people on the West who are, you know, boasting and bragging about all the monies that are being spent on refugees. And that's great that that's taking place. But if a fraction of the money being spent on refugees is being spent on weapons,

you probably wouldn't have all the refugee problems because you'd win the war. Yeah, precisely. Thank you for understanding this, because I don't mean to sound, you know, well, bad saying that do not help our refugees. But what I want to say is that thinking strategically, what the whole world needs to be interested in is making sure that there are no more refugees. And refugees are there for one single reason, because Putin attacked Ukraine and started the war here. So what we need to do is to actually address the cause of all these problems, which is Russian army that is on the Ukrainian territory and killing Ukrainians. And that is why, yes, I have been arguing that we need to focus on supplying weapons. Again, I understand the humanitarian needs. I understand all of that.

But seriously, when I'm hearing about billions being sent to Poland, to Czech Republic, to help our refugees, and then we have to beg for like 200 million to buy some sort of weapons to help people in Mariupol or in Kharkiv, in other areas of the East. Well, that is just making no sense, frankly speaking. What I want to say is that if we spend that money on weapons, if the weapons were delivered on time, we could have avoided the situation in Mariupol. Because in Mariupol, I'm not a military expert, but I was talking to many military, and they were saying the major issue with Mariupol is that they're shelling the city with heavy artillery, and we do not have the weapons to destroy their heavy artillery.

It's as simple as that. Our soldiers can be as committed, as brave, as professional as they can, but they cannot destroy Russian artillery with their bare hands. It's simply impossible. So what we've been asking for are those long-range missiles that we could have used to destroy their artillery and that saved the city of Mariupol. We didn't get that.

At least we didn't get that on time. We're getting some weapons supply right now, but I'm really hoping that that would be on time because the major battle in Donbass is being prepared as we speak right now. And I just do hope it is going to be on time. Again, it's going to sound non-politically correct, but please relocate more money to the weapons, not so much to the humanitarian needs because they can be met in different

manners. Those don't need to be centralized spending by the government. Individuals, communities, churches, NGOs, they're all doing that. So that can be covered. We need to address the cause, and the cause is Russian army here on Ukraine's territory. And you talked about the major battle, and everyone's gearing up for, obviously, there's battles across Ukraine right now based on the unlawful invasion by Russia. But in Donbass, you're currently in Kiev right now. What's the kind of condition in Kiev? What's the status of going on there? And then let's talk about Donbass and what's going on there. Well, in Kiev, it's actually very different right now compared to what it has been for a month, 40 days, basically, because people started coming back to Kyiv. Because I have been in Kyiv most of the time.

I did left twice for five to six days to see my son on the Western Ukraine. And the last time I left was last Saturday. And I left and I returned Saturday as well. So I was away for a week. And that was the week that Saturday that I left, I was actually on the train. And we were starting getting images from Bucha, from the civilians killed, women raped, children raped. It's just, you know, those images were so painful to watch. But that was the moment that I left the city.

And when I came back, I actually did see, well, we put the butcher situation in brackets now, but going back to Kyiv, like, I could see this major change that took place from the moment that Russians left Kyiv region. You know, a week after that, many more people came back to the city. I actually, for the first time since the full invasion started, I was standing in line in the supermarket, which is something I didn't see for the whole period of war. There are more cars on the street. People are street. We are still getting those air raid a lot, like twice, three times a day, which means that there is some missile going our direction or a plane going our direction, fighter jet

trying to bomb the city. But we didn't have major hits. We did hear some shootings in the city today. We still don't know what that was. They're also working with the landmines that the Russians left. So those explosions could be those landmines destroyed by the Ukrainian rescue workers. We don't know. So it doesn't feel completely safe,

but it is much better compared to what it was even a week ago. But then, of course, the situation around Kyiv is very different because in Bucha and Irpin, people are not allowed to go back because of the landmines. Like literally there are landmines in everywhere. The Russians have left landmines. Literally, there are landmines everywhere. The Russians have left landmines. I want to just give you an example that I have seen. People were having potatoes stored in their basement, lots of potatoes. They had a garden and they were planting potatoes. They were saving those for the wintertime. They had bags with potatoes, large bags. And the Russians actually put the mines

inside the bags with potatoes, knowing perfectly well that people would just come into their home. They will see that those are the bags with potatoes that we had. We still have them. They will go in, get the potatoes, and they will blow up.

That is what they did. They planted the mines and some explosive devices into children's toys under the stairs of people's homes, like everywhere. So now there is this major rescue operation in terms of destroying those landmines left by the Russians. And of course, that is something that I had to witness myself yesterday. I went to Bucha in Irpin yesterday with some European MPs who came here. So I had to see that myself for the first time,

is the war crime investigation teams who are, you know, looking for the bodies, digging up the mass graves, finding the individual bodies for identification and also for investigation. And yesterday when we had been there, since we have come there at about 2 in the afternoon, and they told us that that specific mass grave that we have been to as of this morning, they have, from the morning till afternoon, basically when we came, they found 42 bodies. They are now saying that over 400 bodies have been found in Bucha,

but it's still ongoing. It's like every day we're learning about yet new victims. Today in the morning, I saw a picture taken in the woods. They found a car with two female bodies and three children bodies. It was in the woods, they found a car with two female bodies and three children bodies. They didn't, like, it was in the woods. They were apparently trying to escape, and the Russians found them and, you know, shot them down and all.

So we're just finding those more and more bodies in those areas, which is terrifying. And, yeah, they're investigating and documenting it in order to, you know, for further prosecution. So because of that, like areas around Kiev, which have been under occupation, people are not allowed to go in. So that is the situation over there. We've spoken to a few MPs before as well. And some of the feedback we got is they believe that Putin at some point, you know, he had previously invaded and an invasion was possible and probable. But the fact that it's not a traditional war is what surprised some people.

We kind of expected that Putin was going to do this. We've been warning the West. But the fact that the war really isn't a war of army against army, our army is winning, the Ukrainian army is winning, but the Putin war is against the civilians. It's a genocide. And that's what could not be predicted is what some of the MPs said, that it was just going to be a genocide on the people. Is that similar to what your views are, or is it different, or what do you think about that? Well, it's very, you know, I was trying to reconstruct my thinking back, like, in the weeks leading to the war, and of course, there have been warnings, right? There were many warnings by the U.S. intelligence, warnings by the US intelligence, UK intelligence, Ukrainian intelligence.

Everybody had been saying that Putin is preparing for a full-scale invasion. But I think partially because of the, you know, you can't accept this. This is the truth that is just so difficult to accept

that you are in constant denial. But I will tell you this. I was, well, I was making some preparations to an extent you can prepare for war. For instance, with my ex-husband, we have a son together. So we made, like we had a talk and we said like, okay, in case the war starts, he will be the one relocating our son to the Western Ukraine. So here, like I gave him all the documents, like our son's passport or his birth certificate, like everything just in case. That was with him.

And we made a choice. He had a backpack with his clothing, like basic necessities. So in case the war starts, he will be the one taking our son to the West in Ukraine because I'm a member of parliament. So I had to stay here in Kyiv. But that was like, yeah, what are the chances of that? We're just, you know, making this deal just in case. But we didn't really believe we will have to use this, you know, to act upon this agreement.

The same with my team. We made an agreement like, okay, if it was at the time, I was thinking like, I'm doing that more to calm my team down, you know, so that people do not get that nervous because two weeks before that, everybody had been just, you know, panicking because there's going to be a war and so on. So I said like, okay, we're going to have a Zoom call. We're going to discuss what do we do as a team in case something starts. So we had a plan discussed. It was like in the Google document where we had like everything written up, like where we go, where we meet, like all the phone

numbers, everything. But but again i was thinking like truly thinking like i'm doing that for my team we shall never have to act upon this but i need to be prepared you know so uh again i was thinking like three percent chance that this can be happening but no one could believe that he would actually invade full scale like like rockets missiles sent into the city that was something that your brain just can't take it. It's just something you cannot accept. It's like until you hear the first explosions over your city, like 4.30 in the morning, I hear first explosions.

And then I realized like it's happening. You know, that is happening. But even then, I think when we saw what happened in Bucha, that was still a shock. I mean, again, we knew that they are animals. We have been saying that for, you know, for years. We as Ukrainians have a very complicated history of relations with Russia. Russia as a state, and also as people, to a very big extent, have always been very, you know treating ukrainians as the the you know the younger brothers uh who are you know just yeah well we are all together we're just part of one

big family but we are just you know old and big and you are smaller and you know and so on and so forth the russians have been again through history they have always and putin still is very much annoyed by the fact that actually this is gonna sound like crazy, but that is what he cares about, the fact that Kyiv was founded before Moscow, and actually people from Kyiv founded Moscow centuries after Kyiv was founded. A big mistake on our side, I accept that. But they're still annoyed with the fact that Kyiv is an older city. And that is why, like, but it seems like, you know, it seems surreal, you know, that that's ancient history.

But that is what dictates their actions to a very big extent. But even that, even through the history where for centuries they have been trying to forbid Ukrainian language, you know, burning down Ukrainian books. 10 million people killed in the 1932-33 Great Famine, all of that, believing they will literally send missiles into a capital of a European country was still very difficult to accept. But for what they did in Bucha, that is something I still can't accept. Like children with their hands tied behind their backs and shooting them into their heads. Like who does that?

You know, raping 11-year-old boy in front of his mother with his mom tied to a chair and forced to watch that. Like what sort of monster do you have to be to do that? Raping a pregnant girl who later loses a child, raping a woman for a couple of days and she dies of her wounds, all of that, who does that? What sort of animals would be able to do that? I think even for us, even given all the history between us and Russians, that was still a shock. The very fact that people are capable of doing something like that, but they are capable.

And so I have this in my head, we just have to accept that they look like humans, but I'm sorry to say that they are not actually. They're not humans. Humans would never be able to do something like that just because for no good reason. So yeah, I think even we probably underestimate it to what extent Russian society as a whole is sick. I think the whole world was thinking it's just Putin.

But Putin didn't make those specific orders like rape children or rape pregnant women or open fire on cars full of children. He did give general orders but those specific cruelties are being committed by specific Russian soldiers. And they also proudly reported to their wives back home and the wives are saying like, hey, good for you, you're doing a good job and all.

So I think even we did underestimate to a level that society has been brainwashed. So that is just very difficult to accept that this is possible, but we have to learn that it is. And speaking of that brainwashing, how much responsibility do you also put on the Russian people who are in support of these tactics? Well, you have to realize that 80% of them support this, 80%. And this is a huge number. And again, I understand that they can be called victims of Putin's propaganda, but, you know, there should be a level where you say like, there isn't you know there is propaganda but then there is individual responsibility you have to you know to switch your brain on to to start thinking

like there is no propaganda that can make you think that rape is okay you know that that killing children is okay like like no single propaganda can make you, like, how do you put it? Like, whatever the propaganda is, it is your responsibility when you are saying it's okay to rape, it's okay to kill children. Like, you know, there is no other way. Like, those people have to bear responsibility as well.

They have to say, to admit that they are responsible for that as well. Now, yes, they have been brainwashed, but they have been happily brainwashed. I'm not seeing large protests against that in Russia. I'm not seeing thousands of people go into the streets to protest against that. There are individual protests, several of them.

Good for those people who are doing that, grateful. But it's not hundreds not thousands you know we i have seen a protest with a dozen of people in moscow there are 14 million of people living in moscow and a dozen a dozen of them go to the streets to protest and everyone else is fine or they're saying like oh we are too afraid because the police will grab us and, you know, put into jail. Well, come here, try living in Bucha under Russian occupation. That is what is scary, you know? So again, yeah, being arrested by police is not pleasant. I'm sure of that. But, you know, you have to, again, understand that if you're not doing that, you are, you know, complicit with what Putin is doing here.

I saw a clip on social media this morning of Putin and he was giving his justifications for the war. I wanted to read you some of his justifications and just get your response. He said, the main goal is to help people. We were forced to do it. We couldn't put up with it any longer. A clash was inevitable. It was just a matter of time. We didn't have a choice.

This was the right matter of time. We didn't have a choice. This was the right thing to do. Yeah. I don't know how, you know, it's just commenting up on something that, you know, someone made up, like it made no sense because even if they're saying that what we're doing is, and there has been that, you know, the argument that they were using, like we are protecting the people of Donbass. Okay. let's imagine that they are not talking, by the way, about the regime change in Kiev anymore, if you have noticed, because at the beginning of the war, they were actually saying that we are doing the regime change here in Moscow

because this is a Nazi state run by, by the way, by a Jewish president. Well, no problems here for him. And we are trying to change the regime. Well, he doesn't say that anymore. He's now only referring to, you know, we have to protect people of Donbass. Well, setting a missile into the railroad station in Kramatorsk in Donbass. Was that how he was liberating those people of Donbass? You know, 52 people died in that single attack in Donbass. And they were all the people at their station at that morning. There were 4,000 people over there.

And they were all trying to escape from Russian army. They were all trying to evacuate. This is, again, a response. Like he's saying that he's here to protect people from Donbass. Well, why are they all running away when Russian army is coming? You know, so he's given those excuses which of course are making no sense uh he's saying that he had to protect the to stop the genocide what sort of genocide is he talking about he started the war in donbass in 2014

he took away the territories uh thousands millions of people had to flee uh you know all even under terrible conditions over there. And he's protecting them from whom? Like from the People's Republic that he created? From the, you know, the army that he sent to that territory? This is just making so very little sense that I, the only question in here is like, how can a person be lying so much? And I can't even explain that except for this, as I said, like, he looks like a person, but he really is not. He's not a human being. And he's just a

monster. And then he can be saying whatever he wants to. But, you know, it's apparently lies that he can only feed to his own people. And they are happy to be lied to, apparently. Yeah. And it seems like there's no end to the barbarism, the inhuman nature of what he's doing. I read also that the Russians have already abducted more than 121,000 Ukrainian children since the beginning of their invasion. Do you think that's getting enough attention? And what do people in the West need to know about that? like announcement, the papers on the walls saying like, the Far East is waiting for you. Well, very bad advertisement strategy, frankly speaking. Far East, Siberia is not a very good place to be invited to. That is what they're doing.

They're saying to people like, Siberia is waiting for you, come with us. And they're taking away people from Mariupol. From Mariupol alone, they have taken over 100,000 people. From Donbass in general, they have taken over, well, the numbers are different because we cannot do the exact calculations, but up to half a million people who have been abducted to Russia. And yes, over 100,000 of them are children. Many of them are orphans. Either they have been orphans, they have been living in orphanages or, you know, like some other arrangements, or their parents have recently been killed during the wartime, and they have also taken them away. And this is probably one

of the most scariest thing for me, because, yes, they are abducting adults. But with adults, we can imagine like some situation where, I don't know, Putin dies and there is some, you know, things happening in Russia. And for some reason they are willing to let people out. And those people can say like, hey, we have been abducted like a month, a year ago, like five years ago, we want to go back. But for children, like, you know, three-year-old, what he or she will be able to say, like they will not remember where they came from. They

wouldn't be able to speak up. They wouldn't be able to say, hey, I remember being abducted by some people, particularly very small kids. How do we find those children after that? But then, of course, there are children who have parents who have been abducted as well. I have seen a post on Twitter by a friend of mine and he retweeted a tweet by his friend so I don't know the girl directly but like my friend does know her directly and she posted on her Twitter saying that

I will hate Putin forever because my mom and two younger brothers like they're under 16 so they're small children have been taken to russia i don't know where they are we of course do not know whether that uh mother of that young woman uh whether she will be together with her two children or whether they will be separated like we don't know what is happening to them right now and and this is just terrifying story

like i can imagine what that um like a young is thinking, like her mom and her two brothers taken away to Russia. She doesn't know if they're alive, if they're together, how they've been treated and all. Like, I can't even imagine how she's feeling. But this is the story that everyone needs to know. This is what is happening. This is also, actually, if you look at the legal definition of genocide, abducting people, particularly children, is one of the instruments of genocide. That's precisely what they're doing. Yeah, it's just war crime after war crime after war crime. And I know you've been critical a bit of the West, though, for propping Russia up specifically when it comes to the

purchase of Russian energy. What more do you think the West could be doing? And I know, you know, we're from the West, but like, feel free, don't sugarcoat it. What more could the West be doing to help out here? Well, how about stop sending billions of euros daily to Russia? Because that is the number, actually. One billion euros is being sent to Russia every day, every day. And if you look all together, since the beginning of the full scale invasion, European Union send us 1 billion in weapon and military supply, 1 billion for the whole period of war to Ukraine and one billion to Russia every day. You know, so how can we win this? You know, how can we be fighting this?

Like this is an impossible battle we are in. You know, we are constantly trained to everything, you know, doing our best. But they get one billion daily, like from European Union. And they will use that money to, you know, to create more bullets to kill Ukrainian soldiers and civilians. That is what they will be doing. And the West is saying like, oh, that will not be good for our economy. Well, say that to people in Bucha. Say that to people in Mariupol right now. That, you know, yeah, that can lead to some, you know, that will have an effect on the European economy.

Yes, I know. But I do believe that Europe should not be just about economy. It's also a value-based project. And if you're saying that you're about protecting democracy and human rights, well, how about doing that for a change? And again, I understand that this can be difficult but seriously where is the stop to that like you cannot be always saying that oh we cannot survive without trash and gas because we are literally being killed every day every day here today like my boyfriend

is on the east with the army and i don't know whether i will get message from him like next hour or not and this is the thought that i'm you know going to bed with every night and and waking up every morning I have to send him a message and say like you're alive and he says yes I'm alive and then I can continue functioning like imagine living in this condition every day and and thousands of Ukrainians are living like this right now and and and then we hear arguments like oh we can't because I will be bad for our economy well it imagine what is happening to our economy, to our lives, to our houses. And the very fact that this is an issue for the West, well, it's a pity, frankly speaking. And that is what we're asking for. Just stop sending them money and give us more weapons. That is the thing we need.

And again, we are referring to the values that we believe we all hold dear to our hearts. We believe that after all, we all are human beings and there are some boundaries to what we can take and what is just unacceptable. But right now, it's just sending billions to Putin. It's like sending billions to Hitler in 1939 or in 1941 even, frankly

speaking, right? Like that would not be right. That would not be acceptable. How is that acceptable today? And okay, I can even imagine gas. Okay, gas flows through the pipelines. It's difficult to build new pipelines, LNG terminals, all of that. That can be complicated.

But oil, seriously, like oil, it's, I wouldn't say easy, but it is completely doable to stop buying Russian oil. You know, you can have exchange, you can get oil from other sources. That is doable. Like, why not do that? That is the question that I keep on asking. Yeah asking every time I meet European members of parliament. You mentioned Kyiv having a sort of sense of normalcy that may be different than other parts of the country. I'm just wondering kind of what's your day-to-day like right now and how is even government working? Are you guys meeting in the official parliament building? Are you guys doing Zoom meetings? Just how does it function? How does a society that's being invaded function on the ground?

Well, very differently compared to what it used to be, because I'm a member of parliament. It's important. I'm representing the opposition political party. So we're not part of the government. We are part of the opposition, right uh but how my life looked like before we would have like one week we are in session so every day we go to the parliament we debate we you know do the interviews we explain our positions we and so on and so forth then week after that we are working on business of legislation traveling to around the country meeting with our you know with constituencies and so on and so forth then Then the next week after that, we are having, you know, again, sessions for the whole week. That is how it looked like before.

Now it's very different because getting into parliament and staying there for a longer period of time is not a good idea for safety reasons, given that Putin is still sending missiles into the city and he would apparently target the parliament as well. So we are not doing that. We do have like informal consultations about legislation before. That is going on through Zoom mainly. And then when we get to the parliament building, it's always in secret. So the date and time is never announced publicly. We go in, we have to switch off our phones. We can do the recordings, but just with the airplane mode. And we can only publish information about the session taking place like two hours after it

was finished so that everybody leaves the building, like all the people in the secretariat and everyone. And then we adopt legislation very quickly, because we already have discussed it through Zoom and everything. But according to our regulations, we can only pass and adopt laws while being in the parliament. And given the cyber attacks, we were thinking whether we should go online for the voting but uh that uh there are many threats to that because of again cyber attacks and all so uh we adopt legislation and then uh yeah we we leave very quickly and we go back to doing whatever else we are doing right now and that really differs for different people because there are members of parliament who are working internationally, including myself.

I'm doing the interviews. I'm talking to the diplomats. I'm talking to the members of parliament from other countries. That somehow ended up being my main job from the very beginning. Then there are members of parliament who are more involved in humanitarian aid

and relief work. So, for instance, MPs representing the Western Ukraine, they're collecting humanitarian aid. Then they're getting in touch with MPs from the Eastern Ukraine or Southern Ukraine, asking what your specific needs are and sending the trucks to those areas with the humanitarian aid and relief. That is what actually the majority of MPs are doing, like these humanitarian efforts. There are some MPs who are, particularly those with the military background, who are fighting in the army. Like my best friend in the parliament, Roman Costanko, he was serving in the special forces before. He's back with the special forces right now. He's fighting on the special forces right now he's fighting on the south another member of parliament from our party Roman Luzinsky it's actually funny

they have the same name he was never in the military before but he like the first week he was not sure what exactly he should be doing and then he just enlisted into the army like a regular soldier so he never had military experience but he figured out that you know he will go in there which is a bit strange for him you know being a member of parliament and yet like in the army he's on the lowest position but he has he said like okay i'm doing what i can so he's actually serving in the army as well and and other mps from other parties are serving as well like particularly those with the military experience. And then, of course, there are those who are working more closely with the government. Again, we are from opposition parties, so it's a bit different for us.

But working with some reconstruction efforts and all of that, helping coordinate that, that is, again, more in peace from the government party doing that. So it's completely different, but I will tell you this. It is right now for us, it's a 24-7 job, but we don't do days of the week anymore. We just know what day of the week it is. We don't have weekends. I only know weekends when I am visiting my son

and he has his school. So they still have the weekends. And that is when I know actually, okay, so it's Saturday, so he doesn't wake up for his school. But yeah, we're doing that 24 seven. It's very exhausting, frankly speaking. We are like all our lives have changed because I've been talking to so many MPs

and so many people in general. There is this statistic that says that 44% of Ukrainians are not living with their families as they were living on February 23 before the invasion. Actually, everyone we know is now living with different groups of people compared to what they used to live like look typically people live with their families right but now people are living like with their teams with their friends with their like like the volunteer group that they are helping coordinate so on and so forth i'm actually living with my assistant right now like she's's my assistant slash friend, but we decided that it's just better for us this way. And also we work together and we,

it's actually, it doesn't feel, I wouldn't say safe, but this is something that my boyfriend told me the first hour of the war. He said like, okay, I'm going, well, I knew he would enlist because he was serving in the army before, but he said like, just'm going well i knew he would enlist because he was serving in the army before but he said like just make sure you don't stay alone like never so i was staying

with some friends then with some other friends then i went to see my son through the western like you know you never stay alone but you're not with your family like with in different configuration of people which is strange because again typically you want your home to be like your private space but it's not anymore i also haven't haven't been living at home for the first month because i live on the north of the city and the russians were coming from the north so it was not very safe particularly on the north so i was staying with some friends who are living on the south of the city and i learned that i can survive with one sweater and one pair of jeans for two weeks.

That's what I learned. We've learned how brave the Ukrainian people are. And it's been a revelation I wish I've known my entire life. And I wish I could do more to highlight stories, to highlight what's going on there. And we've made it a priority on our podcast, on our platform to make sure that we are able to speak to people like you and that people can know how they can help. And so what would you suggest, how can anyone listening to this, what would you suggest they do if they want to be helpful? Well, call your representative and ask them to provide a weapon

and military support to Ukraine. That is the number one issue. There is nothing, we need more. And without that, any other type of help is just making no sense, frankly speaking. So just call your representative, write them letters. I know that works in function in democracy,

something Putin doesn't understand, but do that. We are ready to fight. We are not asking for you to come and fight in this battle for us. We are doing the fighting. It's not just us that we are fighting for. It's not just

Ukrainian values we are fighting for. We are actually fighting for the whole civilization against this barbarism of the 21st century that Putin is and his Russian society are representing. So please help us in this war. We there is, you know, that's not much we're asking for, frankly speaking, I think, just to save the world from this evil. So please, yes, call your representatives and ask for weapons to Ukraine. That is the biggest humanitarian need that we have right now.

Ina Sobsen, thank you so much for joining us today on the podcast. Thank you. and check out a wide variety of table games with a live dealer. From roulette to blackjack, watch as a dealer hosts your table game and live chat with them throughout your experience to feel like you're actually at the casino. The excitement doesn't stop there. With over 3,000 games to choose from, including fan favorites like Cash Eruption, UFC Gold Blitz, and more, make deposits instantly to jump in on the fun

and make same-day withdrawals if you win. Download the BetMGM Ontario app today. You don't want to miss out. Visit BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. 19 plus to wager Ontario only. Please gamble responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Welcome back to the Midas Touch podcast. What an incredible interview. I'm always just so blown away by how brave Ukrainians are. And when you hear how much their country means to them, it doesn't surprise me in the least to see how they

have fought so valiantly to protect their homeland. Next up is our interview with the head of the Center for Civil Liberties in Ukraine, Oleksandra Metvychuk. As a reminder, in addition to her work leading the Center for Civil Liberties, Oleksandra received the Democracy Defender Award in 2016 from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, and she's dedicated her life to documenting war crimes. Let's take a listen to our interview. We are joined by Alexandra Matvichuk, the head of the Center for Civil Liberties in Ukraine. She was the recipient of the Democracy Defender Award of 2016

by the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. Alexandra, welcome to the podcast. Nice to meet you. And Alexandra is in Kyiv right now. Alexandra, if you can, what are the conditions there right now as we speak? We are now in Kyiv under Russian shellings because Russia restored the deliberate attack to civilian objects in Kiev. We have attacked this night, we have attacked this in the middle of the day. So the situation is unstable. The

heavily better we expect in the east, but still Russians' rockets are targeting different goals in Lviv, Kiev and Khiv, and other cities of Ukraine. And President Zelensky has said that without additional weaponry, this war will become an endless bloodbath, spreading misery, suffering, and destruction. This is something that we keep on hearing from Ukrainians. Do you agree? Yes, I agree. I spent 20 years of my life to protect people with the law, but now the law does not work at all. I couldn't stop the deliberate killing of civilians, torture and rapes with Haakon-Zheniv Convention.

The international system of peace and security are laying ruins. Russia does whatever it wants to do, and Russian troops use war crimes as a tool of conducting this war. So the only methods for us to stop these war crimes and to stop new victims to emerge is first to provide Ukraine a haven weaponry like fighter jets, like air defense system, tanks, artillery, and second to freeze ability of Russian economy to feed this war. I mean to cut all Russian banks from SWIFT, not only several, which we have at the current moment,

and to stop and ban the trade with Russian energy supplies, because Russia has profited from this war and will receive this year, according to the expectations of Bloomberg experts, 321 billion euros, of dollars, sorry, which is in third time more than in previous year. You know, one of the things that bothers me that we, I think, are seeing right now, you referenced it in your response, you have all of these international organizations, whether it's the UN, this convention, this conference,

this is going on in Europe, the North American alliance. But at the end of the day, other than people in many ways kind of virtue signaling, oh, we're here with Ukraine. We stand with Ukraine. Okay, well, if you stand with us, then do the things that show that you stand with us. Give us the weapons, close the airspace, and actually help us from a genocidal maniac who wants to come for you next. His plans don't end with Ukraine. His plans start with Ukraine and start headed west. And so that part's frustrating for me. And as a civil liberties leader, I have to imagine for you, seeing these institutions kind of fumble must be beyond frustrating.

In the beginning of March, we published the open appeal of Euromaidan SOS, which was supported by several dozens of human rights organizations in Ukraine. We asked international organizations like UN, like Council of Europe, OEC to return, because when this large Russian invasion started, they evacuated their staff from country or to the more safe regions of Ukraine, and they are not with us on the ground. So we ask them to ensure international presence and international monitoring in the war zone during evacuation when Russians deliberately attack humanitarian corridors in the occupied cities where people are left alone with occupiers but we're still waiting for response. Unfortunately, the international system is not effective.

If it will be effective, Putin couldn't use chemical weapons against civilians in Syria, and everything will be much more different for current day. What about just even this past weekend and week, you have French President Emmanuel Macron and President Zelensky speaking and President Zelensky saying, look, just call it what it is. I mean, like, why are you so afraid to even call this a genocide? This meets all the definitions of a genocide. Look at what's going on in Bucha. Look at what's going on in Maury Pool. Look at what's going on in Donbass. This is a genocide. Yet people are even afraid,

leaders are afraid to even use that language. And you've written about the importance of calling this a genocide and saying it is what it is. And you just explain that dynamic and also why it's so important that we accurately frame this as a genocide, which is what it is. Genocide is a crime of crimes. It's the most severe international crime which can exist at all. So the standards of proofs of genocide is very high. And because we have to prove that all these killings and rapes are committed with so called genocidal intent but we can find this intent in russian propaganda in the russian officials who publicly state that russian a ukrainian nation has no right to exist at all but the problem not that macron don't call this genocide, because it will be a hot discussion in international court,

and international court will provide a last word in this discussion. The problem is that this atrocity, these killings and rapes are going on now, and Macron has to do something in order to help Ukraine to stop it. I see that now on the international arena, there is a problem with the leaders, political leaders who feel their historical responsibility. They like thinking from a short term of electoral period how to be elected and what has to be done.

But we need political leaders who have more long horizontal of thinking and more long horizontal of responsibility, who has this responsibility, not only even for their nation, but for the world. We've seen now, Alexandra, just the incredible success of the Ukrainian military and the incredible failure, quite frankly, of Russia's. But we've seen Russia shift, like you've been saying, to this all-out genocide on the civilians of Ukraine. What is the current status of the war from your perspective? How is Ukraine doing? And what do you think people in the West, people around the world need to be looking out for over these next few weeks? We now document our crimes and try to gather as much evidence as possible. For

example, our initiative, Yevromay Danesues, we are focused on direct testimonies of victims and witnesses of war crimes. And we gather testimonies about deliberate shelling on civil objects like kindergartens, churches, schools, residential buildings, deliberate attacks to medical personnel and hospitals. Also, we received dozens of requests for help from people from occupied Kherson, Berdyansk, Nergadar, Kakhovka and other cities. And they told us that Russian soldiers kidnapped people, tortured people, killed people, and we couldn't stop it. And really, I am very frustrated because for us now the main goal is not only how to document all these war crimes and crimes against humanity properly, but what we can do in order to stop these war crimes.

Unfortunately, Ukraine couldn't solve this problem alone, and we need a real proactive action from the international community. And that's why I will apply to ordinary people, because I'm not a diplomat, I'm not a politician, I'm a human rights defender, but I know from my own experience, and I totally believe that ordinary people have much more power than they even expect to have. I ask you to stand with Ukraine and to push your national governments to do necessity things in order to stop this war, because it's not war between Russia and Ukraine. It's a civilizational battle between authoritarianism and democracy. And Russian officials publicly said that Ukraine is only an intermediate goal.

So we live in a very interconnected world and only spread of freedom makes this world safer. You speak about the ability and the power of regular people to be able to make change and to be able to help the people of Ukraine and to speak to their representatives around the world to affect change. We spoke with a member of parliament in Ukraine, Ina Sovtsyn, and one of the interesting things that she had said to us was she said, I don't want to sound callous. I don't want to sound cruel in any way. Money to refugees is great, but what we really need is money for weapons, because if we had the weapons, we wouldn't have the refugee crisis that we're seeing. Do you agree that if people in the West, the people around the world are going to be putting their energy into sending money to Ukraine,

that sending it for weapons is the best use of that money at this stage? Yes, I agree. Because if we will not be able to stop atrocities in Ukraine, which is committed by Russian troops, this wave of refugees will only grow in growing. So we have to work not only with results, we have to work with the cause of the problems. And this is essential. That's why we as Euromaidan SOS made a statement like it's the beginning of the war when we see this picture and we state that

it has to be priorities in international assistance that we are very grateful for all support which was provided to refugees abroad but maybe it's the easiest task it's also difficult but it's the easiest task between the's also difficult, but it's the easiest task between the list of tasks which has to be done in this situation. And the most challengeable task

is to repeal Putin from Ukraine and to stop these atrocities. And one of the complicated things, obviously, is that Russia does have a lot of influence in the world. And now they're being cut off by the world at large for the first time in a very long time. What do you think the future is for somebody like Putin? I mean, how do we handle these human rights atrocities as a human rights defender yourself? What do you think needs to be done? Does Putin need to be cut off forever until he's out of power? Did you agree with President Biden when he said, this guy's got to go, basically? Does there have to be some form of Nuremberg trials after this to hold everybody accountable for their atrocities? What is the next step once we get through this? I have been documenting war crimes for eight years already,

and my focus was illegal detention, tortures, and killing civilians in the Donbass, as well as political persecution in Crimea. I spoke with people who were beaten, who were raped, whose fingers were cut, who were smashed into wooden boxes, whose eyes were pulled out with spoons, who were tortured with electricity and other horrible things. And then we united our efforts with Russian human rights defenders, with human rights defenders from Georgia, from Moldova, and we identified the people, several dozens of

people who organized these war crimes in Crimea, in Donbass, in Chechnya, in Abkhazia, in Ossetia, in Transnistria. So it's clearly shown that Russia used a war like a tool of gaining geopolitical goals. And all these years, Putin wasn't punished for these crimes which he committed in different parts of different states. So it's only encouraged his appetizer and provoked him for a new and new act of violence. And this large-scale invasion is a result of total impunity which Russia has for all these years. So first, what has international community to do? To stop this irresponsible behavior and to put Putin to accountability,

him and his surrounding who organizes for crimes in all places which I mentioned. Because I'm sure that if we united our efforts with Syrian human rights defenders, we will identify this concrete person also in Syria. So the question is not in this, that Western democracies don't know what has to be done to stop Putin or how to stop Russian economy or how to support Ukraine with weapons. The question is whether Western democracies will be sincere

with their values, which they proclaimed, and do these necessity steps. Right. Like if you really support human rights, then you have to take action against the people committing the war crimes or else they're just words. Yes, we need acts. Words is not enough. Could you tell me a little bit more, just going back a little, about your work for the Center for Civil Liberties? And could you have ever imagined that it would lead to this moment right here? We are in war for eight years already, as I mentioned. And this war started

when Ukraine obtained a chance to provide a quick democratic transformation. Because the Center for Civil Liberties opened the Euromaidan SOS initiative as a response to the brutal dispersal of peaceful student demonstrations on Badan Square in 2013, when our previous authoritarian regime stopped the Eurointegration process and people came to the street to defend their democratic choice. And we paid a very high price for it because more than 100 unarmed people were killed in the center of Kiev. And I have never expected such results of events.

But now in this war with Russia, we are fighting for the right to have a democratic choice as such. And we paid a very high price only for a chance to build a country where rights of everybody are protected, the government is accountable, judiciary is independent, and police don't beat student demonstrations. So this is the value dimension of this war. And Putin don't afraid of NATO, Putin is afraid of idea of freedom, because when Ukraine succeed in democratic transformation, it will have a huge impact to Russia itself. One of the things you called out this morning, going back to what Ben was saying earlier, was the United Nations and the fact that they're not adequately counting the number of civilian

deaths in Ukraine. Why are they missing that? And then you note how the media then picks up these lower numbers of deaths, and then they spread that? And then you note how the media then picks up these lower numbers of deaths and then they spread that and they're basically spreading fake information about the true scale of the atrocities in Ukraine. Why is that happening? And what do we need to do to put more pressure on the UN to get this correct? like a special world, post-informational world. Information is spread very fast and people don't pay attention to details. That's why this small disclaimer, invisible disclaimer in UN reports that it's incomplete data is not read by audience and not published by media. And as I told before, UN mission is not presented in the grounds. They work distantly and they try to verify these cases distantly. That's why

they have no accurate numbers at all. And we think that it's provided even more negative consequences because the state and international organization are rely upon on these numbers and they have a wrong impression of the scale of the war and the scale of human pain and human losses in this war and then based on this wrong information they they can take wrong decisions that's why we publish this open statement and asked UN to change the format of this information. And I think that's one of the powerful things and the things that separates what's happening in Ukraine now from any event that's ever happened before in human history. It's that we have social media to get the truth out, that you're able to post that statement and you're able to tell people this is actually what is going on here. Everybody needs to be paying attention.

And I think social media has really changed the game in terms of letting the world know about the true scale of the atrocities in Ukraine. Now, there's also a negative side of social media. I'm not sure that the social media companies themselves have done enough to help the people of Ukraine. What's your thought of just about how social media has either empowered Ukrainians or how social media companies need to step up more to help the people of Ukraine? Just how is social media filled in this void where the media and these organizations have failed? Social media is an instrument and instrument can be used in wrong hands for some evil things and in good hands for some good things.

I just remind you that Russian propaganda was very widespread all this year, also with using social media. And because of this widespread, they create a picture where people start not to believe in any version. They started to think that truth does not exist at all, that everything is possible. But it's not true. There is a truth and there is a false. And you can use the George Orwell sentence, then two plus two, it's four. And if you have no right to tell this, something's wrong in this world.

So social media and owners of social media, I mean technological companies, have a huge responsibility for all this state of affairs. Because false information, especially with emotion, is very widespread in millions of audiences and can push them to the wrong behavior. Because our thoughts, what we are thinking, then provide in a practical way in what we are doing. That's why I wish the world to read more books, not content of social medias, because books are developed cognitive functions of a brain and social media not.

That's a good point. And I think a good message for every aspect of life, read more books, I think is a very important message. Do you think the social media companies should be kicking off? One of the things that is amazing to me that the Kremlin still has their Twitter account and they could spread all this disinformation from the Kremlin Twitter account. These embassies, these Russian embassies around the world are posting every single day, literal fake stories about what is happening in Ukraine. And they just stay up for days, for weeks, they're just there. Should these people be, should they be kicked off of these platforms? I think that it's also connected to one more important thing. What is the freedom of speech and where is the line between freedom of speech and

propaganda? And it's very sensitive questions which has to be solved on the level of international law and also on the level of self-regulation of a journalist organization. Because I myself faced with the so-called Russian journalist, which unfortunately is only a part of military machine of Russian Federation, in some small exception, which now banned in the Russian Federation completely and couldn't provide their work like Novaya Gazeta, Echa and Media Zona, Meduza and other independent Russian media. I will tell you one story. When I provide testimonies from one young girl who was taken into captivity in Donetsk

because of her pro-Ukrainian sympathy, she was pregnant, she was beaten, and she was kept in cruel conditions. She was asked not to beat her because she is pregnant, but she was told that you have pro-Ukrainian sympathy and you are Jewish and your child has no rights to be born. And then she was told that, okay, we will release you, but you have to provide testimonies to Russian journalists. You have to tell him that you are a sniper of Tornado.

And she agreed for sure. And then this so-called Russian journalist arrived. And we find this video. It was a journalist from TV channel Russia 24. And I was shocked with one detail from her story. She told, when journalists saw that she is pregnant, they asked her to change position because it threw in the story that she is sniper of Ternada.

This really is, I mean, just such a dark period in history. I mean, to put it lightly. And you're there, you're on the ground. My question for you is, what's your message to other Ukrainians who are there with you as the days, weeks and months go forward? I maybe have two messages. One for Ukrainians. I'm proud to be Ukrainian because I don't wish any nation to go through such kind of time, which we are going now. But this dramatic time provides us a chance to express our best feature

to be better than we are and to show the world what is mean to be a real human beings because now we are fighting not only for our country and even not only for our people we are fighting for a values of the world and we feel this responsibility and And second, my message will be to the audience in countries of democratic states. We have no choice. We will fight to the end. Yes, Russia has a much more powerful army, but we have much more powerful people. and I hope that our people will survive and will not be like in legend or in future books or in future films about heroism and tragedy, etc. I want them to survive, to have family, to build their life, to build our country and do whatever we want as human beings regularly do. And I hope that the world will not stand as observer and stand with Ukraine, help us, provide us weapons, provide us support in the form of necessity economic sanctions against Russia.

Because now we are fighting not only for Ukraine, we are fighting for a future of the whole region. Yeah, I think we all see that Ukraine is fighting quite literally for the future of the entire free world. And I want to thank you, Oleksandr, for the work you're doing for human rights and in exposing these human rights atrocities that Russia is committing. And I want you to know for what it's worth, we see the strength of the Ukrainian people every single day.

We are in absolute awe by it. We are trying to do our part to amplify the messages of the Ukrainian people and let people know about the war crimes that are happening there. And we're going to keep pushing our leaders as hard as we can to do more here. And that I promise you, Alexandra Matvichuk, thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for defending human rights. Thank you so much for being on the Midas Touch podcast with us today. Thank you very much. And we will be right back after this. Thank you for listening to today's bonus episode of the Midas Touch podcast. I really hope you enjoy these conversations.

We try to bring you real, raw discussions with the people the mainstream media, frankly, aren't speaking with. These aren't talking heads or TV analysts. These are true Ukrainian leaders, people who are walking the walk, people who wake up every single day fighting for their freedom. I think we could all learn a lot from these incredibly brave women. And let's take what they said to heart and contact our representatives and urge them to do more. If we were in their situation, I know we would want them to do the same. If you love the Midas Touch podcast, please give us a five-star rating and write some nice comments

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