The MeidasTouch Podcast - BREAKING: Trump Organization GUILTY on ALL COUNTS in Criminal Trial (Feat. Michael Cohen)

Episode Date: December 7, 2022

On this MeidasTouch Podcast/Legal AF crossover, Legal AF hosts Michael Popok, Karen Friedman Agnifilo and Ben Meiselas are joined by guest Michael Cohen to break down the conviction of the Trump Organization on all counts in the criminal trial in New York. Shop Meidas Merch at: https://store.meidastouch.com Join us on Patreon: https://patreon.com/meidastouch Remember to subscribe to ALL the Meidas Media Podcasts: MeidasTouch: https://pod.link/1510240831 Legal AF: https://pod.link/1580828595 The PoliticsGirl Podcast: https://pod.link/1595408601 The Influence Continuum: https://pod.link/1603773245 Kremlin File: https://pod.link/1575837599 Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen: https://pod.link/1530639447 The Weekend Show: https://pod.link/1612691018 The Tony Michaels Podcast: https://pod.link/1561049560 American Psyop: https://pod.link/1652143101 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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free of charge bet mgm operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming ontario this is michael popock legal af with my co-anchor Karen Freeman Agnifilo for a special Trump Organization's been convicted of all 17 counts midweek show. You heard it right, folks. I know that's why you joined. We finally have our first major conviction of a Trump and Trump related entity. The only entity that matters to him is the Trump Organization. Ever since he changed the name of it when his father left it to him in his will, that has been the primary vehicle for the family Trump to do all of their business slash grifting from the very beginning. So for the Trump Organization to now have a jury in a Manhattan trial court, Manhattan Supreme Court, come back after less than one full day of deliberation and find that the Trump Organization is

guilty of all 17 counts of tax evasion and fraud that the prosecutors had put on. They didn't get off on one. There was not one hung count. All 17 counts have now been reached by the jury that even Donald Trump knew about the fraud, the payments under the table to his three key executives for years to allow them to pay for without any tax consequence to them no tax liability for them for apartments in Manhattan for tuition for children and grandchildren for car services and as as people that live near Manhattan know those things all add up pretty quickly. This went on for years until 2017, after Trump already was in office. And they then decided to clean that mess up, led by Ivanka and led by the children, and ended up just giving those executives $200,000 more a year to cover all of these benefits that they had been getting under the table. It was a year to cover all of these uh all of these uh benefits that they had been

getting under the table it was a benefit to the trump organization that's the fraud because they were able to take these things as as improper tax deductions meaning they lowered their payroll taxes and didn't have to pay taxes on that and the recipient of this benefits under the table, Alan Weisselberg, Matt Calamari, and the controller, they didn't declare it as income to themselves. Of course, who got screwed in this? You, me, and all the rest of the US taxpayers. That's what the jury has found. And that fact that they changed their practices after Trump became president, I'm sure was one of the things that the jury focused on to say there was knowledge at the ownership level, the highest level of the fraud. Remember that the defense primarily focused on that this was just the defense for the Trump organization, that this was just the rogue acts of three

out of control executives, that the senior ownership, that means the Trump family, had no idea, no idea that these payments were being made. I mean, I can't even get that out with a straight face. I don't know how the defense team did. But that was their defense, that Allen Weisselberg, who testified, who was, as I called him, the bride at the wedding and the body at the funeral, he testified that, yes, it was on him, but he also had to testify that people above him, meaning the Trump family, knew about these benefits being paid to him. And I'm sure Allen Weisselberg's testimony was very important to the decision making by the jury.

Karen Friedman Ignifilo, formally the number two prosecutor, the number two head of that office, the Manhattan DA's office that just got this tremendous victory. I want to bring you in now to talk about what your observations are about the trial that was put on, the prosecution decisions that were made. And now where do we go from here? Now that Alan Bragg, the head of that office, in, I guess, anticipation that he was going to win this, this trial just two days ago, hired a new giant supercharged prosecutor to join his team. And Mr. Colangelo, who's going to focus, I am sure, on Donald Trump now. Let me hear your thoughts, Karen. What do you think about the prosecution team? I'm sure you know them and

the results. And where do we go from here? Yeah, this is a sweeping, sweeping victory for the Manhattan DA's office. And I can't tell you how proud it makes me to see that the office that I grew up in and have loved all these years just made me proud again today that they could handle a case like this and bring it across the finish line. This was a case that was started by Cy Vance and Alvin Bragg, who's the prosecutor who took office in last January, almost a year now, he had to give him a lot of credit. He put superstars on this case, Susan Hoffinger, as well as Joshua Steinglass. Josh Steinglass is one of the senior trial counsel in the office, which is, I like to call them the thoroughbred racehorses of the office, are the senior trial

counsel. They're the best trial lawyers there are. And that is the highest honor in the office to be a senior trial counsel. And they put Josh Steinglass, who also prosecuted in 2019. He actually prosecuted a case against the Proud Boys. So he's been in this world and he knows how to do this. And he brought this across the finish line. He did the summation in this case. And it's just really happy to see that the jury got it. And, you know, even though this was a tough case in the sense that one of their star witnesses, Jeffrey McConaughey, had to be declared a hostile witness. And Alan Weisselberg, who was a cooperator and refused to implicate Trump, that didn't stop these amazing prosecutors at the Manhattan DA's office. They were still able to, at the highest level, bring this across the finish line.

And I just really am so proud and so delighted to see that Alvin Bragg is carrying on the tradition of excellence at the Manhattan DA's office. I think this case is significant for many, many reasons. I think that somebody had to, you know, they have to see there's so much crime and corruption going on by the Trumps and you see it everywhere. There's so many, whether it's federal or state. And here, in this particular case,

this is a 13-year scheme of corruption and fraud. There was a widespread conspiracy in this business, this family business, to commit tax fraud and falsify business records. And this is a criminal conviction. This isn't civil. This is a criminal conviction. And this is the first ever criminal conviction of anything remotely close to former President Donald Trump. So this is huge. And as far as I'm concerned, this is step one in what's going to start happening. As you said yesterday or recently, there was an announcement this week of Matthew Colangelo, who's a heavy hitter, and he has come on and he has been brought on by Alvin Bragg

to look into what's been reported as the Stormy Daniels hush payment scheme. I think that's a falsifying business records scheme. I have no inside information into that, but that's what's been widely reported. And I don't think he would have brought someone in like that. Again, I don't think someone like that who has the experience and background that he has, he's worked for the Obama administration, he's worked for the Department of Justice, he's worked for the Attorney General. He's actually worked for the Attorney General in investigating the Trumps and investigating these matters. I don't think he'd come over

and work for Alvin Bragg. First of all, I don't think he has much criminal experience. He's more of a civil attorney. But I don't think he would come over and do this if there wasn't something to do and there wasn't something he was willing to do. So to me, let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question, because you've been understandably very jaundiced and skeptical about Alvin Bragg up until this moment about his decision to only go against the Trump organization, have Allen Weisselberg flip and testify in that way. And I know in prior podcasts, for instance, I know you were like, well, this is fine, but this is not the case that I wanted to have to have been brought. Now that he's gotten, now that Alvin Bragg has gotten the 17 count

conviction under his belt and in tandem brought in Colangelo, does that Alvin Bragg has gotten this 17 count conviction under his belt and in tandem brought in Colangelo, does that change your mind about where you think Alvin Bragg is going and whether there will be a future prosecution, which is what our listeners and followers want to hear, of Donald Trump and the children themselves? Yeah. I mean, look, I was very disappointed that the investigation started under Cy Vance. The other investigation started under Cy Vance that potentially would have indicted the former president and his children for the misvaluation of his assets. You know, he either overinflated or underinflated his properties, the exact allegations that Attorney General, the New

York Attorney General, Tish James, filed a civil complaint against recently. So there was also a criminal investigation there that was being investigated under former DA Cy Vance with two other very senior, excellent attorneys, Kerry Dunn and his name's escaping, Mark Pomerantz. They were both working on it and it was widely reported that they were ready to go into the grand jury. And then they quit very publicly when it was reported that Alvin Bragg was not going to bring the case. And yeah, I was disappointed. I was very disappointed because look, Alvin Bragg was new. I didn't know him as well. And I do know those prosecutors and Cy Vance and they're excellent. And so I was disappointed. But, you know, look, Alvin Bragg has, I think, had like like Cy Vance did, like we did, had a little bit of a

I wouldn't say rough beginning, but, but you know it's new and you're and and you're sort of finding your sea legs but let me tell you he has found his sea legs this is incredible on that note karen i don't want to cut you off i'm going to come right back to you but we got michael cohen former lawyer for donald trump is going to join us right now he's got a hard out so i want to bring him in and then come back to you for further analysis. Michael, how are you? Good to see you. Yeah, good to see you here on Legal AF. I certainly wasn't expecting to be on. None of us were.

I'm sitting in my den watching the news, and all of a sudden, I'm obviously dressed like yourself, very casual. But that's a famous corner in your house. That's now a famous corner in your house. We like that corner. But let's get to it. your house. That's now a famous corner in your house. We like that corner. But let's get to it. I know you got a hard out. Tell us about what your thoughts, what's going through your mind watching your former boss and client get, and his company, at least the company, get convicted of 17 counts of

tax evasion. Well, let me be very clear. Something that I have said from day number one, and even before that, when I had testified before the House Oversight Committee, when I had testified before the House Oversight Committee, and I had stated that Donald Trump inflates and deflates the values of his assets, whether it's for his personal reasons or for tax purpose. And then all of the other stuff came out from the additional 1213 meetings that I had had with both the district attorney's office, as well as the attorney general's office. Good for the jury. It was a very quick and it was a deliberate determination,

convicting Trump organization of all counts. The part that bothers me, and I think I hear it echoed by other individuals, is the fact that Donald Trump, right, the eponymous name on the company, once again, seems to be escaping culpability and liability. And I want to be very clear, and I've said this to the DA, and I've said it to the AG, and I've said it to members of Congress, and I've said it on television and in the press, there is nothing, and I mean absolutely nothing, that goes on at the Trump Organization that is not directly approved. And I'm not talking indirect. I'm talking about directly approved by Donald J. Trump. So the fact that Allen Weisselberg, who had lied to the Southern District of New York when it was about the hush money payments going towards my

case, has done it once again, except this time fell on the sword for Donald, despite the fact it could have meant for him a 15-year or up to 15-year prison sentence, as opposed to the 100 days that he has now pled guilty to, and it appears prosecutors have agreed to, at Rikers Island. Yeah, Michael, let me ask you a quick question also, because I know you're very, if our fans don't overlap with your show, I'm sure everybody knows who you are and what your testimony has been and how important it's been to the New York Attorney General's office and by extension, the Manhattan DA's office on this. Can I stop you there for one second?

Let me be very clear about this too. Cy Vance sent Carrie Dunn and a whole slew of Manhattan district attorneys to Otisville when I was there, actually on three separate occasions. Much of this was started originally through the district attorney's office, then ultimately picked up by Tish James, who, like I always call her, she's the unsinkable Tish James, like the unsinkable Molly Brown. She's really got this from a civil perspective. Now we just need Alvin Bragg to handle this in a criminal matter. He's done that against the Trump organization. But then again, that culpability means nothing.

1.6 million. They charged me more in penalties and interest than that. And I never even tax evaded. Let's talk about, yeah, I want to pick that up and push it forward. Because Karen and I were talking about this before you joined or even before we started the show. There are implications and impacts from a business standpoint for the Trump organization, which is the only vehicle Trump has ever used, putting aside that he tried to form a Trump organization to in Delaware a month ago. He's been running everything through this company that he inherited from his father for a long, long time. Now he's got a criminal conviction, meaning his relationship with banks and lenders and auditors and other people that are stakeholders with him just got incredibly difficult. I assume there are covenants within loan agreements, personal guarantees and others

that in the event of a bankruptcy or criminal conviction of the organization, there are really bad impacts about that. Can you can you speak to that at all? Sure. So let me begin by saying he recently received I think it was a 300 million dollar loan, despite the fact that both the attorney general's case had been started and the district attorney's case had been started by Axos Bank. All right. So, you know, is this going to stop banks from working with him? Are there bad boy clauses? Absolutely. It's Tish James that's going to ultimately cause the death spiral of the Trump organization with the penalties and the and the fines that are going to exceed, obviously, this $1.6 million determination, probably more to the tune of $700 million.

And that will be the ultimate kiss of death for the Trump org. But I do want to remind all of the listeners and the followers that something else that's going on here. A lot of the money that Donald is getting now is coming from where? From Saudi Arabia, right? I mean, he's now allegedly doing some sort of a golf deal for a billion dollars. On top of that, he made an announcement that he's going to be building like 2,000 homes on the Doral golf course. Really? How's he going to finance that? He doesn't have cash on hand. And whatever cash on hand he has is sitting in that super PAC, which there's no way that he's going to spend because 90% of it is his money. And he's using that as a slush fund in the event

that everything else falls apart. How about, Michael, how about the North Korea bank loan that's now been reported while he was a candidate that never ended up on the books and attracts back directly to the North Koreans for billions of dollars? Yeah, well, I'm not sure that it was North Korea. I thought I saw somewhere that it was Daewoo, and Daewoo, I believe, is a South Korean company.

I've seen North. What's that? I've seen North reported. Yeah, I've South Korean company. I've seen North. What's that? Well, I've seen North reported. Yeah, I've seen that also. But I've been to Korea, to South Korea. And I can tell you that I've been to the buildings that are licensed by Daewoo from the Trump organization. And that goes back many, many, many years. I don't know if there's any still interest there. I don't know about North Korea and the bank other than to say if in fact that it's true. I mean, seriously. And then he's even a possibility as a presidential candidate for the GOP. I mean, how stupid is a country? Are we really going to allow ourselves to be looked at by the rest of the world?

I mean, are you really going to take money from Kim Jong-un and from Mohammed bin Salman? What's next? Vladimir Putin, Erdogan, you know, Duarte? Who else? Who else is this guy going to take money? It's like, look, it's very similar to the 70s and so on. When he was working with the mob, you don't want to borrow money from the mob because the VIG will put you out of business. In this specific case, you don't want to take money from these autocrats, monarchs, dictators, authoritarians, because the ultimate obligation is not just too big for him. We don't care about him, but how about to the country? This is bad stuff. Yeah. Michael, on that point, so the Dawu is

right. Forbes reports that Dawu at South Korea is links back to entities in North Korea. So the $2.9 million that he took and did not disclose. And just as you predicted here, it was Tish James' investigation that revealed the extent of that loan. So now you have a 17 count conviction against the Trump organization. You've got a newly energized Alvin Bragg,

a very muscular Alvin Bragg, who's dusted himself off from his beginning last January. From your mouth to God's ears. Brought on Colangelo. Yes, Colangelo's got a background and experience in some other areas that seem to be of interest to Alvin. But the big announcement is really about Colangelo's links to having successfully gone after Donald Trump and knowing where all the bodies are buried. I don't know. Did you ever run into Colangelo at any of your dealings, Michael? I have not, but not that I recall.

But listen, I'm available. I'm around. I want people to understand, despite all of my cooperation, it's like 600 plus hours between seven different committees in Congress, the attorney general, the District Attorney, and others. I have asked for and I have received absolutely nothing, despite what Donald and members of the GOP want to say, but I will continue to provide them with information as it relates to this case and others. My hope is that you are right, my friend,

that Alvin Bragg has now maybe injected himself with some steroids and he's feeling very strong and he's going to go lift that 300-pound orange-crusted Mandarin Mussolini, right? He's going to bench press him and throw him. Wouldn't that just be something special for all of us to see? I don't think anybody that knows you and what you've done and testified about and cooperated

about thinks that there's justice, that you serve time in prison, and that Trump and the others around him at the closest levels haven't yet. But we're getting closer. As I like to tell people, year one of the Biden administration was about the investigations, And year two looks like it's going to be about the prosecutions and maybe convictions. Justice takes time, as you know, Revenge, which I actually believe is probably the most on point book that talks about what happens when you have a corrupt president with a willing and complicit attorney general, meaning Bill Barr, weaponizing the Justice Department to go against his critics. And I raise this point really for the sole purpose of drilling into the listeners' minds every single day, that this is exactly what Donald Trump is saying right now about the Biden administration,

that the Biden administration has weaponized the Justice Department to go after him. So he will now cry victim. This is another witch hunt that they started going back six years ago, you know, seven years ago in 2015 when he made his announcement and so on. This is a man who does not know how to accept culpability, responsibility. And I wish the Democratic Party, and I constantly ask Jamie Harrison to please do this, get on the phone with the guys like from Midas Touch, from Lincoln Project, from myself, the Jen Taubes, the David Hoggs, and let us help you to craft a message that will ultimately fight the GOP's messaging, you know, on an even basis. But they don't allow that to happen. And they have so much more out there than the Democratic Party does, which drowns out the message. I'll just give you a quick example. So I started a TikTok account and I put up these Michael Cohen

reacts. A lot of times on the Midas channel, they throw them up also. But every time I put anything up on TikTok, what ends up happening? There's a bot farm and it's all run by the GOP and they report it as being harassing or violative of the community guidelines. And then it goes into a state of suspended animation where it's on hold. Ultimately, I appeal it, and then it comes back on. But by the time it comes back on, it's lost its energy. It lost its mojo. And that's why I'm saying to everybody that's watching right now, everyone that's a fan of Midas and for all of these groups, the most important thing is you have to be vocal. We cannot sit back and allow the GOP to keep kicking themselves in their own asses.

We need to be the one doing the kicking. And again, from your mouth to God's ears, Alvin Bragg has the opportunity to redeem himself. It's so important. My hope is that he does it. My hope is that I do get a phone call from Mr. Colangelo and that they ask me to come in and to speak to them and to walk them through still so much. bodies. There's just a lot of information, financial fraud, you know, and sort of underhanded schemes done by Donald by and through people like Allen Weisselberg or Jeff McConney. You know, on one final note, one of the things that I always say, and I want people to understand the hierarchy

and how it goes at the Trump org as it relates to the banking world or to the financial world, Donald Trump would be considered the president of the bank. And Allen Weisselberg would be considered the branch manager, with Jeff McConney as the teller. So in anyone's bank that's out there, could you imagine the teller is going to do things without telling the president or without the authorization of the president of the bank? Or the same holds true for the branch manager. He is literally 50 feet away from Donald's desk, from the office, and there's an open door policy, especially for executives like Allen or like myself. You walk in and you get Donald to sign off on it. Allen Weisselberg fell on the sword. Sadly, the district attorney and the prosecutors did not hold him to full task because had they done that and had he really for

one split second thought that he could be doing more than these 100 days in Rikers Island, which is a fucking tiny pittance of what he should be getting. I got three years for another guy getting his pecker pulled by a porn star and shoved down my throat charges of tax evasion or misrepresentation to a bank. All right. This guy should be looking at certainly more than 100 days. They had the opportunity to really press them. They didn't do it. So, again, from your mouth, my friend, to God's ears, that Alvin Bragg has finally developed some muscles and that he's really ready to enter the fight and to enter the. Mike, Michael can ask for a better series of observations than by you. I love the bank teller and the bank president analogy.

I always thought of Trump as Mr. Potter now that we're getting into Christmas season and it's a wonderful life. And Weisselberg is the guy that pushed the wheelchair around. But, yes, I agree with you. And look, they're still going to have another pass it. Allen Weisselberg isn't going to be left alone now not if colangelo and bragg have their way and if they bring more tax evasion or loan fraud or insurance fraud claims and lay it at the feet of alan weisselberg he's going to have to cooperate again or they're going to prosecute him again and they've seen how successful alan weisselberg can be in front of a jury even against his will but they didn't have to go quite hostile

with him because they you know like you said his will. They didn't have to go quite hostile with him because they, you know, like you said, they were giving him a sweetheart's deal to go to Rikers Island, but they'll trot him out again in front of a new jury and try it all over again. And hopefully the defendants this time on the other side of the V are the Trump family

led by Donald Trump and not just the organization. Michael, thanks for joining. Revenge the book is available. We'll put it back up as a link for our listeners and followers and uh anytime you want to come on the show mike just let us know appreciate it and please tell all your listeners to follow me on tick tock too they're really funny we will thank you my brother bye-bye you too you too thanks michael michael cohen can't ask for a

better follow-up to legal analysis than a lawyer, former consulieri for Trump himself, with him and did all the things, all the dirty work that Trump wanted him to do until he had enough and served his time, came out and has completely rehabilitated himself as a fellow podcaster with us, a successful award-winning author, and has a lot of current information that Matt Colangelo may want. That was an invitation, right? Karen, you heard it here, literally heard it here first on our Legal AF. Matt Colangelo, pick up the phone and call Michael Cohen, have lunch with him. It may be very, very helpful and short circuit a lot of the things that you'll be investigating. Let's get back to you, Karen,

because I had to get Mike on and off in a kind of a little bit of a timetable. He's much in demand right now, as you can imagine, but I didn't want to cut you off. Let's go back to, let me frame it and then turn it back to you. Alvin Bragg, for sure, took a lot of healthy criticism on this show and other places, and you in particular, about how he was handling the prosecution, his decision on Allen Weisselberg and to just go after the Trump Organization. But now that having played out so successfully with that superstar team of people, including Mr. Stein glass, who did the closing that you talked about, knowing that they still have Allen Weisselberg for as long as they need him for all of these other fraudulent issues, whether it's insurance fraud, which has now come up in the reporting that has not been

prosecuted yet. They have ways to squeeze Allen Weisselberg's little round ones even further to get him to testify. And they now have, you know, what's better than a 17 count conviction to buoy your spirits and make you feel great about yourself as a prosecutor? Don't they now try to go after all the things that Pomerantz and the other special prosecutor were focused on again? Or do they focus now on a smaller case, but one that they can prove against Donald Trump and his children? What do you think, Karen? So as you like to always say about the Department of Justice and Ben, you know, these things take time, right? And these investigations are methodical and you go

through, you pull all the strings and you see where they lead. And, you know, whether people like it or not, these are not political. And so there have been several investigations into the Trump organization at the Manhattan DA's office, both under Cy Vance and now under Alvin Bragg. If you recall, in the past, there was the Stormy Daniels hush money payment that Michael Cohen was just talking about. There's a separate investigation into the asset valuation of all of the various properties and things because Trump likes to over inflate the value of his assets

when it suits him, like to get loans and things, and then under inflate or devalue, I should say, his assets in order to pay lower taxes. And that's another, that was the second investigation that we know of. We also know about his tax returns that the Manhattan DA's office under Cy Vance, they went all the way up to the Supreme Court of the United States and won and was able to secure his tax returns. So there's that investigation. And then there's the one that we just got the jury just convicted the Trump Organization today in the 17 count case against the Trump Organization and Trump payroll. You know, there's also the several Department of Justice cases that are happening.

The Mar-a-Lago documents, the Jan 6, the election interference. And then we also know about the Fannie Willis in Georgia and that investigation. I mean, there's lots and lots of criminal investigations. There's also civil investigations that are happening or civil cases, I should say, most famously the Tish James, who's the New York attorney general. What's significant and really momentous today is this is the first ever criminal conviction of anyone in the Trump or the Trump orbit, really. And and this is the Trump organization. This is his family business. So this is significant. And I do think that it is very clear that with the appointment of Jack Smith as special counsel, you know, that to me was the biggest

signal that the noose is tightening around the Trumps, because Jack Smith is an extraordinary prosecutor. And I don't believe he would come and do this case if there wasn't at least a possibility of prosecution. He's also proving to be moving very quickly and to be very on the ball, taking witness testimony and making decisions, even though he's still out of the country due to an injury. But that hasn't stopped him at all. So you can tell that that case is moving along and moving along quickly. And same with the Fannie Willis investigation. And here we are with Alvin Bragg. It's so clear that Alvin Bragg, by hiring and bringing on Matthew Colangelo to work on what's been reported as the Stormy

Daniels hush money case, that that case is also starting to pick up and pick up steam. The case about the asset evaluation, let's see if that goes. Alvin Bragg has said, you know, the DA, Manhattan DA Alvin Bragg has said over and over again that that case is still pending. And so I think we take him at his word. You know, look, I think... There's also, Karen, the Hartford insurance potential fraud, which is where I think they also try to get Weisselberg, that Weisselberg was the mouthpiece to tell Hartford that certain of the appraisals were done independently on real property that were being insured when they were not being done independently. They weren't being done at all. It would be waking up Donald Trump in the morning and saying, hey, boss, what do you think that

piece of property is worth? And him coming up with a number. That's not really the independent appraisal method that insurance companies like like to use um karen let me let's jump in and let a few we've got some more time here uh and we've got a lot of people watching which is which is uh just shows the amount of energy and the amount of interest that our listeners and followers have to see justice done here let's take a few of the questions some of them we've been able through your analysis answer. Bridget asked some questions about what's Alvin Bragg going to do next about Trump and his children and related to other ones. And Kenneth asked the same thing. One person, Tess Lake, asked how much is Trump going to pay in the tax fraud? The number here is relatively low. I mean, the penalty, I think, has been reported as

about $1.6 million, $1.7 million in this current case. This case wasn't really about the money, most cases are. This case is about getting a criminal tax conviction of the family organization, the family office that Trump runs with his children. And it's not just a conviction. These are felonies. A felony, right. 17 tax felonies. You're right. We should sing it from the rooftops, felony convictions of a company. Good luck finding an auditor. Good luck finding a CPA. Good luck, even though Michael thinks there's banks out there, including ones that are linked to Putin, that may still be willing to lend him money. It looks like Donald Trump's going to have to go to Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Dubai to go find cash.

Because I don't think an American bank with an American or global bank based in America where the board of directors is going to be able to lend Trump organization money just based on this recent conviction. Let's take this next question. Let's see. Let's talk about the appeal process. How long do you think, Cynthia Swingle asked, how long do you think the appeal process is going to take now that the conviction has come in? There's still some post-trial work that has to be done. There's going to be post-trial motions. Susan Necklis, the defense counsel for Trump, is going to make a motion to overturn the verdict, I'm sure, right? And things that only the judge can do. So we've got another week or two

of hand-to-hand combat in front of Judge, the judge in this case, Mershon, before we even get to the clock starting for the filing of a notice of appeal up to the first department. But talk about the appellate process and how long you think it'll stretch out from December of 2022 forward. So the sentencing is scheduled for January 13, 2023. So the first thing that has to happen is you have to be sentenced before you can appeal. And then I think that they will appeal fairly quickly. The appellate process can take a year or two, but look, this is Donald Trump, and so you never know. He gets to the Supreme Court in such fast time.

There are other people who take a decade or more to get to where he has gotten. So I think this will be fast-tracked, the appeal, but I think what's gonna happen is during the pendency of that, I think there are gonna be other, he's gonna have a lot of other cases come in after him. I really see that happening fairly quickly. And I think that it's important to remember that getting conviction, criminal convictions at the state level is just as important as at the federal

level. Although the Department of Justice is moving quickly and looks like, I think, will indict at least some people in the Trump orb at some point. I think that the Fannie Willis case and the Alvin Bragg case, I think cases that are pending and that I think are moving forward, I think are really important because as we all know, if Trump or another Republican becomes president, he can he can always he can always grant, you know, clemency and, you know, and and kind of wash away these convictions. But he can't do that on the state level. So I do think these state convictions are important because only the government. Yeah, yeah. Sorry, you were going to say the governor. People are asking about sentencing.

We talk about it as sentencing. But the Trump organization is not, just like any corporation, is not going to jail because it's an entity. But the sentencing you're talking about will relate to the monetary fines and penalties. Is that any other conditions related to the convictions? What else can the judge do in a criminal conviction of a corporation? Because they can't send it to jail. So besides the fine and the penalty, are there other things that the judge as a condition of sentencing can do to an organization, i.e. the people that are running the company cannot be officers and directors of other New York corporations for a period of time. They'd be barred or banned from that. What can it do in the sentencing phase to really throw the book at the organization and make it stick? Well, that's a very interesting question that, frankly, I'd like to do some more research into because he's not just convicted of tax crimes, this organization. It's not just the Trump organization. It's also the Trump Payroll Corporation. So two corporations have been convicted of multiple felonies. And in addition

to the fines that are permissible, they were also convicted of scheme to defraud, conspiracy and the criminal tax frauds and falsifying business records. So each one of these charges will carry what is permissible sentencing. And I would have to do some research to look and see what that is. But I can imagine in like, for example,

the scheme to defraud or falsifying business records, that has to do with lying, that has to do with lying, that has to do with fraud, that has to do with just dishonesty. And so if they are going to continue to do business in New York, I can imagine a scenario where the judge would put limitations or guardrails around that, perhaps put in some kind of a, whether it's a monitor or some kind of something to ensure that they can't, that, you know, they're just not to be trusted. So I don't have an answer to that right now. I do want to do some research into that, but I can imagine because these are crimes of fraud, that to be a corporation in New York, there's going to be all sorts of

things that happen if they want to continue to be in New York. But I don't think they're going to continue to be in New York. I mean, Tish James is already kind of going after the corporation in a big way. And he's already tried to start Trump Org 2 or whatever he was calling it that, you know, just to try to make something new. Hi, I'm Harry Lichtman, host of Talking Feds, a roundtable that brings together prominent figures from government law and journalism for a dynamic discussion of the most important topics of the day. Each Monday, I'm joined by a slate of Feds favorites and new voices to break down the headlines and give the insiders view of what's going on in Washington and beyond. Plus sidebars explaining important legal concepts read by your favorite celebrities.

Find Talking Feds wherever you get your podcasts. It's like the NRA, you know, to get out from under Tish James. They tried to incorporate in Texas and get out from being a New York corporation. Of course, that didn't go well in their bankruptcy court filings, but that's the kind of things they do. So Karen, good homework. We have midweek tomorrow, midweek edition of Legal AF. Yeah, I better find out what to be done. But to answer some other questions that are being asked, Mitch Schaps asks, how can an organization be found guilty and not those that are in charge of the organization it's always a very good question but organizations get prosecuted all the time and it becomes a prosecutor's discretionary call as

to whether there are apex people the executives at the very top that also have criminal liability for which they could prove a case and in this case case, and this is, I think, where Karen was very not in agreement with Alvin Bragg about not bringing the claims against the Trump organization. That was a call that was made. That was a discretionary call that was made at prosecutorial discretion not to do that. However, I think what we're trying to say during this analysis on the fly today

is that having now seen the results, they don't have to guess anymore. This trial and the convictions took a lot of guesswork out of some of the future prosecutions. I know who's slapping high five in their offices right now is Fawnie Willis in Fulton County because she's a state prosecutor. That's got to and you know, that's a win. That's a win that reverberates throughout the justice system throughout the country. She's got to be thinking great. She's probably thinking I got more evidence against Donald Trump than they do in terms of election interference and the phone call. So she's feeling good that a jury back to applauding both the prosecutors as you did the a team of prosecutors and the jury let's not i don't know much about them i know i think it's a little bit more female than male

but other than that we don't know much about them we will in the coming days and hours but the um they did a tremendous job here of sifting through several weeks of evidence you know there weren't a lot of witnesses. There were only two for the prosecution or actually three and very few on the other side for the defense. But there were tens of thousands of pages of documents. And as you and I once joked, you know, they got the case late yesterday. They did about four hours of deliberation and went home on time. Today, they came in, checked in with the bailiff, got to their room, ordered lunch, deliberated for a

little bit in the morning, deliberated for an hour or two after lunch, and that was it. We're done. 17 counts are in, you know, conviction. So that jury should be applauded. It is the reason why our system of government and our system of justice is really the shining star in the world is because we let juries handle complicated financial crime cases. And by and large, they get it right. They know who's lying. They know who's telling the truth. They know who the criminals are. And they know how to pull the switch for conviction when they see that evidence. And that is a compliment to our jury system in this particular jury in particular.

One thing that I think will be interesting is that when the prosecutors made the judgment call not to charge the principals and Trump and others, the interesting thing is at trial, it was the summations focused on Trump's culpability. And that's because that's how the evidence came in. So they developed evidence through the trial, through the sworn testimony under oath of Allen Weisselberg and the other guy, Makani, and so even the hostile witness. So it'll be interesting to see when they do an assessment now because that summation was very much that Trump was responsible. And it'll be very interesting to see if now they try to hold Trump

and others guilty or accountable, I should say, for the conduct here. Because at the time that this was charged and Allen Weisselberg was charged and, you know, this case was brought early on, they clearly didn't have enough to charge Trump. But a lot was developed throughout the course of the case. And like I said, there were witnesses who testified under oath and the jury found them credible. And so it'll be interesting to see how the DA's office looks at that and looks at all of the evidence here and whether or not they decide to now go forward and perhaps charge those who are in charge of the organization, namely Donald Trump. So so I say, let's let's just keep watching and seeing what they're doing. But this is a huge, huge victory for the Manhattan D.A.'s office.

And again, this is the first conviction of the Trump organization or anyone with the last name with the last name Trump here. So this is just a really phenomenal, phenomenal experience. I've got some great news. I've got some great news for you, Karen. We're going to be joined in a minute or two with our co-co-anchor and founder of Midas Touch and Legal AF with me, Ben Misalis. He's just getting set up and he's going to come in here.

Look at this. We threw this together literally in about 18 minutes. We were all waiting. I made a prediction this morning that this verdict was coming in here. Look at this. We threw this together literally in about 18 minutes. We were all waiting. I made a prediction this morning that this verdict was coming in today. I just, you know, when you do this long enough, I'm sure you felt the same way. You're like, it's going to be, it's a today thing. It's not a tomorrow thing. And it wasn't a yesterday thing. I had to walk by court today because I had to go, I had to go to the clerk and get something. So I was walking by and I noticed there was only one news truck out front. And I thought that's, so they, I thought there's, that alone made me

think there's not going to be a verdict today because normally they kind of know. And so there's usually many, many more. You know why I thought, you know why I thought when they made their motion for mistrial off of Josh Stein glass's pushing of Trump had to know, Trump had to know in his closing and stop the closing over it. The only time I've ever seen somebody in a case make a motion for mistrial is when they think they're losing the case, because if you think you're doing pretty good with the jury and your read and you think they're buying what you're selling and you're getting a lot of head nods in your favor when you are putting on your

case, you're like, you know, we'll roll the dice. This is probably the best case I'm going to be able to put on. But they were so ready to pull the plug on the case and try over it and do over and get a do over. Of course, the judge was having none of that. I thought this jury's going to move quickly through this evidence. And if it wasn't for lunch breaks and having to go home, they probably would have got it done in day one.

So look, you know, so we threw it together quick. But look, Michael Cohen, how many shows on television? None. We're able to scramble, put together a show like this with hard hitting analysis, bring in Michael Cohen, the former consigliere, and right hand of Donald Trump from a legal standpoint, who served time because of his testimony, who's in the entire New York AG case is based on Michael Cohen's testimony. And we had him on the show. And then who doesn't love Ben? We're gonna get Ben to join you. And as soon as Ben's here, you know, I'll probably take my leave. But let's see if we can answer another question.

While we while we still have time here. How about we talked about sentencing. What is Trump's next move? I think, Karen, you've outlined the next move here in terms of legally is already laid out for him. Post-trial motions, sentencing, appeal. There's two levels of appeal in New York. The good news is we won't see the U.S. Supreme Court involved because this is not a federal case. And you can't, there's only rare circumstances where you can jump the tracks and go over to the federal side and ask for a Supreme Court review. So it's going to be handled by New York First Department, which is the appellate division that's responsible for Manhattan, of which I'm a member.

I'm sure you're a member of the First Department. I am. All Manhattan, of which I'm a member. I'm sure you're a member of the First Department. I am. All right. First Department member, fellow member. And then when that goes against him, which it will, it will then go to the Court of Appeals for the state of New York. And then that is final and conclusive. Game over. Trump organization finally convicted. In the meantime, who really cares what Trump does on truth social and other places? The parallel world that he lives in, where you know, everybody's out to get him, he hasn't never done anything wrong. Everything's the most best and perfect. You know, there's as Ben once said, I think with you, there's a huge gap between what you can get away with on morning television,

especially Fox News, and what plays in a courtroom. And you know, the sooner the prosecutors get their acts together and get into courtrooms against Donald Trump, the better, because only good things will happen. In the meantime, he can spin it any way he wants, but his corporation, his baby, his lifeblood just got hit with 17 felony counts of tax evasion and fraud in the state of New York, period. What was also interesting about this case,

and I think what's going to have reverberations for him throughout, is this wasn't just a one time, you know, he falsified one thing. This was a scheme that went on for 13 years. This is 13 years of fraud after fraud after fraud after fraud. And that's that, again, is just a sweeping indictment of the former president and how he does business, that he is basically a fraud. I mean, for 13 years, he was he was doing all of the things that were that we've been talking about, you know, whether it's giving apartments, you know, and not having instead of paying someone a salary or the full benefit of their salary, they pay them a certain amount.

And Alan Weisselberg and what he does is, you know, paid for private school, paid for Mercedes, paid for apartments and then didn't declare that on anything. So, you know, it wasn't just Alan Weisselberg who wasn't paying his taxes. What the jury found here was that this was for the benefit of the Trump organization, because the Trump organization didn't have to pay payroll taxes. They benefited, too. And that's exactly what Michael Cohen was describing that the Trump organization is to fudge numbers so that it, in a way that it helps them, whether it's making something to be more valuable or less valuable or to not pay taxes or to give perks instead of salary and then devalue and then not pay payroll taxes on it. This is just part and parcel of how they do business. And this was, like I said, a 13-year fraud. So I think we're going to see a lot more coming as now that we have a jury

that has found this corporation guilty and they've gotten all the information and documents and this testimony under oath. I think there's more to come. I know you know susan necklace the defense counsel for um how about uh fuertes the other lawyer do you know that do you know both and both on the team um you know alan allen futterfoss so no yes that's it yeah yeah yeah they're excellent these are excellent attorneys and they have great reputations they're really

top-notch attorneys. How do you think he got them? And then we'll bring Ben in. How do you think, because Trump has done a terrible job of picking counsel. How do you think he got Necklace and Ferdinand Foss to join the defense team and actually handle this case, who are really competent criminal defense lawyers, but ones that even them couldn't save him from a 17 count felony conviction. How do you think, why, how do you think he got that? Well, since I'm, I'm new to being a criminal defense attorney, I'm not sure I'm the best person to answer that question of why people take

certain cases. But now that we have Ben in the dark. Yeah. There he is. Is it dark in here? Is my lighting bad? Yes. Yeah. Your lighting's, your lighting's bad. But Ben ben is this the first time the three of us have done this together have we done this before no no remember when i was traveling we we did a three-way show okay that's right on a supreme court on a supreme

court decision so i had so let me tell you so i had a meeting for the last two hours i the one time i'm in a meeting for two hours where my phone is off, I turn back on my phone and I find out that the Trump organization has been found guilty of all counts, including the scheme to defraud. And you know what's sad, Ben? Because you sit at your computer making hot takes literally all day long. And the one moment of Trump org 17 count felony conviction, you're doing something else. You have a day job?

You know, I still have a day job. I'm a practice attorney. But look, this is huge news, right? And it comes on the heels as well of the announcement that the Manhattan District Attorney has brought on Matthew Colangelo from the Department of Justice. Colangelo was the number three top deputy at the entire Department of Justice. He was the associate attorney general there who has ample experience investigating Donald Trump for crimes relating to the Trump charity and Trump Foundation criminal Conduct Colangelo was the one who shut down the Trump Foundation and the Trump Charity, and he was brought in right now by the Manhattan District Attorney's Office here by Alvin Bragg.

And I think it was really, really, really a big sign that Alvin Bragg, who a lot of people thought was not moving in a direction to criminally indict Donald Trump directly after he let the grand jury lapse. People may be looking at Alvin Bragg a little differently now, huh? I mean, if you think about the Alvin Bragg strategy, you know, one can put it out like this, whether he intended it or not, which is, look, let's try the case against the Trump organization first. We got Allen Weisselberg to testify. We got Allen Weisselberg to plead guilty. He pled guilty to the 11 or so felony accounts before testifying here.

Strategically, what if Alvin Bragg was saying, and Karen, do you think this is what he may have been thinking? Let's test the waters with this criminal trial. The as kind of a test trial, if you will. And then you bring it to, okay, we have this conviction. And then right when the jury was deliberating, Alvin Bragg must have felt good about it because then Alvin Bragg announces he's bringing Matthew Colangelo, who's got this long history of investigating Trump, to now focus on the Donald Trump direct crimes and more crimes involving the Trump organization for the fraudulent valuation scheme where in their statement of financial conditions, Donald Trump and his adult children and the Trump organization

would put forth these false valuations that were drastically different from the appraised values to get benefits on loans and taxes and from insuring agencies as well. So Karen, do you think that's the approach or did it just kind of work out that way and now Alvin Brand could be like, see, I told you this is what I was doing. I think that I think it could be, but I think more likely it's that the case, this was a case that started under Cy Vance. And it was a case that was brought against Allen Weisselberg and the Trump organization and the Trump payroll corporation. And it just ripened to the point where it became time to go to trial. I think that now, though, the summation here that was given by Senior Trial Counsel Josh Steinglass, who's one of the great lawyers, the great trial lawyers at the Manhattan

DA's office, I think his summation was very much about that Trump knew Trump was responsible and it's that this absolutely was something that was sanctioned by Donald Trump. That comes from evidence that was developed under oath at the trial. Now that they have all the paperwork that they needed that was presented at the trial and the witness testimony. And so we'll see if now that their theory is clearly that this was all about Trump and that Trump knew and Trump sanctioned this and benefited from it, we'll see if they bring that case or if instead they bring one of the other cases that they have pending.

I think you just mentioned that they brought on Matt Colangelo to work on what's been reported as the Stormy Daniels hush money investigation. That was a case, again, that's been at the Manhattan DA's office under Cy Vance and then with Alvin Bragg, but they didn't have enough to bring the case at the time. Prosecutors, especially the prosecutors at the Manhattan DA's office, they follow the evidence where it leads without fear or favor.

And so if they had the evidence to go against Donald Trump, they would have brought the case. It sounds like that case, the Stormy Daniels case, is something is developing. It sounds like there's something there that has broken. I have no idea what it is, but I don't think someone like Matt Colangelo would come to work for the Manhattan DA's office under Alvin Bragg. I mean, as you said, he was a very high up person. I think the number three at the Department of Justice. He's also, you know, he worked under Obama. He

worked for Tish James. I mean, this is a real serious lawyer. I'm not sure he would come to the Manhattan DA's office if there wasn't something real here to investigate. You know, I was disappointed when Alvin Bragg didn't go follow through with the case that was in the grand jury that was being prosecuted, that started under Cy Vance, but was handed to Alvin Bragg initially, and two senior prosecutors, Kerry Dunn and Mark Pomerantz, you know, they resigned very publicly. I was very disappointed that that case seemed to have died on the vine, but hopefully we'll see. Maybe that case is also continuing to be revived. I know that Alvin Bragg has said over and over again that that case is not dead. And, you know, I give him a lot

of credit. It's hard to take on the Manhattan DA's office, which has a long history. And, you know, he was brand new. And I said earlier, I think at first it took him a little while to get his sea legs, just like it took us when Cy Vance first took office in 2010. It took us a little while to get our sea legs. But I would say today, Alvin Bragg got his sea legs. Today, he got a sweeping conviction of every count, all 17, against the Trump organization. It's the first ever criminal conviction against any of the former president's companies. So this is huge. And I think this is a really good beginning. And I think the evidence is starting to be developed. And hopefully we'll

see something come of it soon. It's quite remarkable when you really just take a step back and say exactly what you just said. A former president of the United States' company that bears his name was just found guilty. Guilty of all 17 counts. Of felonies. Of felonies. Of felonyonies. Of felonies. Of felony criminal conduct. And if you're doing the math, it was about 30 minutes per count to deliberate. And so a relatively swift verdict, although we were wondering when it was going to come

in. And a very thoughtful verdict, too, because it was obvious from the notes that were coming in from the jury, they were basically taking each one in seriatim, one by one, and asking questions about the elements on each of the counts. And then they would go back with another count if they had any questions. And so a very thoughtful jury, but a felon. The organization is a felon.

The charities have been shut down for engaging in unlawful conduct as well. There is in a civil lawsuit brought by the New York Attorney General, the judge overseeing that case, Judge Arthur Engeron, has found and made a finding that Donald Trump was engaged in ongoing criminal fraudulent conduct, which was the basis for why an independent monitor, retired Judge Barbara Jones, has been appointed with the Trump organization, having to turn over essentially all of its financial records and corporate structure to retired Judge Barbara Jones and any material transactions they need to run by retired Judge Barbara Jones. And so it brings us to this question that we got asked by someone by the

name of Jeff who goes, are we expecting indictments early 2023? So my view of it, and it's based on objective data, is I think we're waiting for 2023. And I don't want to say specifically early 23, although I'd want your definition, Jeff, of what constitutes early 23. What I'm looking for is that April to June period. And I want to hear from you, Karen, about what you think, but I'm thinking April to June. But the basis of it too is today there was news that the special counsel, Jack Smith, has issued a new set of subpoenas to some of the county boards of supervisors in Wisconsin, in Michigan, in Arizona, and they previously sent some requests out to Milwaukee as well, certain areas where Trump was involved in, among other areas, election interference, which shows that Jack Smith is also focused on the fake elector scheme and the unlawful pressuring of these boards of supervisors,

where he tried to harass and threaten them to not count the votes like he tried to do in Maricopa County, and frankly, that they're still trying to do today. So those subpoenas just went out. We know as well that at the end of last week, we got the testimony, the full testimony of Pat Cipollone and Patrick Philbin, who are Trump's former top White House lawyers. Recall those individuals testified in September before the grand jury in Washington, D.C., but Donald Trump frivolously asserted executive privilege, but nonetheless, because he's a former president, unlike any other citizen, he can at least assert it even if it's frivolous, and it had to be litigated. And the federal judge, Judge Beryl

Howell, she did not agree with Donald Trump's privilege assessment of executive privilege, and Cipollone and Philbin were required to testify. And prior to that, former Vice President Pence's former top deputies, Mark Short, his former chief of staff, and Greg Jacob, the former general counsel. Same thing. Remember, they showed up in July before the grand jury in Washington, D.C. investigating Trump's crimes. Trump asserted executive privilege. The Department of Justice filed a motion to compel. Judge Beryl Howell found the executive privilege claim to be without merit because there was a compelling need for the Department of Justice. Also, it's unlikely even a former president is permitted to assert an executive privilege

in the first place. But nonetheless, there are still some judges out there who Trump appointed who have indicted even someone like Brett Kavanaugh in the Benny Thompson case, for example, talked about a former president may have the ability to assert executive privilege, but it can be overcome by a compelling need. And so for all of the people, I think this is a great point too, Karen, for all of the people out there though, who are like, we need to rush these prosecutions. I want to see Trump indicted a year ago or more. When you see cases like this, when you see the way juries think,

Karen, you and I know this because we go in front of juries and we know how juries interact and we see it. But if you as a prosecutor go up without the goods, if you show up because you feel pressured by political opinion and you're not actually dotting your I's and crossing your T's, it's like prosecutorial malpractice. And the example I give is, imagine Merrick Garland or now Jack Smith before having compelled the testimony of people like Cipollone and Philbin and Mark Short and Greg Jacob and others. And they fought not to testify and Trump fought. So that took a long time to get their testimony, but assume they just rushed into it because the tsunami of social media pressure was so much that the Department of Justice did what like John Durham

did, like the Trump prosecutor lackey who went out and filed these cases and lost every one of them. And then imagine a situation where you have a prosecutor that Merrick Garland has or a Jack Smith, whoever it is, goes and starts asking questions to Cipollone. Let's just use Cipollone as an example. And Jack Smith goes, so Cipollone, what did Donald Trump tell you on January 6th? And Cipollone goes, I can't answer that executive privilege. And then you as a prosecutor go, well, I'm asking, I'm demanding that you answer. And then the judge is going to ask the prosecutor, well, did you take the appropriate steps pre-filing to make sure that executive privilege was overcome or did you just rush this case?

And what's the prosecutor going to do? They're in front of the juries. The prosecutor going to say, look, I was rushed because people were telling me they wanted Trump to be indicted. We had to do this for the sake of the country. So you see there an example that now that they've got the testimony of Cipollone, by the way, the January 6th committee didn't get the testimony of Cipollone. Now that they got the testimony of Philbin, now that they got the testimony of Mark Short and Greg Jacob, Stephen Miller testified. And Stephen Miller, remember, took out any references in the speech on the ellipse of January 6th that referenced Pence, and Trump put those back in,

and so on and so forth. So the importance of diligence in building a case against somebody who is a former president, and it pains me to say that this was a former president, but they have different set of arguments. They are not above the law, but they have more arguments in the law if they want to maliciously abuse and torment our constitution. And that's what Donald Trump has done at every step, but the DOJ has countered it at every step to get us to this place where the wheels of justice are turning. I know that was a very long-winded answer to Jeff's question, but Karen, when would you expect to be on high alert for indictments as the wheels of justice turn? So don't forget that a criminal case has a different standard of proof, a much higher burden of proof than a civil case.

And it's beyond a reasonable doubt. So any serious prosecutor, whether it's the Department of Justice and most, not all the lawyers there, especially under Jack Smith or the Manhattan DA's office, which, of course, I know I'm biased, but I think is's an exceptional office, always has been and continues to be. Nobody's going to feel or be pressured politically to bring a case when they're not ready and they're not going to bring a case against somebody because there's any political pressure or outside pressure to do so. And it's hard. That's one of the hard parts of being a prosecutor is you have to really turn off the noise in the background and put your

head down and investigate your case. And you bring a case if that's where the facts lead without fear or favor. And the Manhattan DA's office has multiple cases that are going. And, you know, as we all know, under Cy Vance, there was this case to try to get Donald Trump's tax returns. And that case went all the way up to the United States Supreme Court. And they ultimately did get the tax returns. And so those are still at the Manhattan DA's office. And then there was widely reported that there's the Stormy Daniels hush money case, that that also is being investigated by the Manhattan DA's office. It'll be interesting to see if now, given the convictions here and the evidence that was developed in this case, whether they'll bring

a case against Donald Trump with this underlying Trump organization case. And there's also the case of where Kerry Dunn and Mark Pomerantz resigned because that case seemed dead in the water. So there's many cases that are being investigated at the Manhattan DA's office. And if they develop enough to prove beyond a reasonable doubt any of those cases, I could see an indictment fairly quickly. In state court grand jury, at least in New York, there is no hearsay allowed in the grand jury. You have to have live direct witnesses, unlike federal grand juries where hearsay is allowed. In the federal grand jury, you can put an FBI agent on, for example, who could say, I spoke to this person and they said this, and I spoke to that person and they said that. So you have to get live witnesses and live testimony. And so it'll be interesting to see if any of these cases ripen to the point where there will be an indictment

at the Manhattan DA's office, or I think Fannie Willis's case in Georgia is also heating up. I think it'll be interesting to see if she if she waits to see if she waits to issue a report before she brings an indictment. But I think we could we could see an indictment there. I think that's ripening, if you will, or any of these Department of Justice cases that Jack Smith is working on. I think I think the Mar-a-Lago tax, the Mar-a-Lago documents case is fairly straightforward and not as complicated as the January 6 election interference case. I think that case might take a little bit longer. And in that case, I think we have to be patient because for all the reasons you said, you have to make sure that you run down every lead, you talk to every witness, you put everyone under oath and you see what's there and what's not there. But the Mar-a-Lago documents case, I do think is a little bit

more straightforward. But once you bring one case, I think there are people who are nervous. I think the prosecutors, rightly so, are all nervous about who's going to go first. And so I think once one goes, I think we're going to see several. That's my prediction. My prediction is whoever goes first, sort of around the same time, you're going to see potentially Georgia, New York, and the Department of Justice. And I think these state prosecutions that many people will say, well, just leave it up to the Department of Justice and let them do it. But what worries me about that is if we have a Republican president, or if God forbid, Donald Trump is the next

president, they can, he can pardon himself, or a Republican can pardon him, you know, presidents can pardon federal convictions, but they can't pardon a state court conviction. So that's only that can only be done by a state governor. And, and I think we need to have, I think that's why I don't think it's, it's duplicitous or in any way just, you know, leave it up to the feds because he's a former president. He committed crimes. Absolutely. He's, he's been working. He has, he's been working in New York for, for decades. He has property here. And the jury found today that he engaged, he engaged in a 13-year scheme to defraud the people of the state of New York. And I think it's very important that he be held accountable for what he has done to New York, to the taxpayers

of New York. And so I think Alvin Bragg got this sweeping, incredible conviction today. I'm proud that the Manhattan DA's office continues to be the Manhattan DA's office and that he is living up to the high standards of the Manhattan DA's office. And I look forward to seeing what he does next in addition to the other indictments. And to answer your question, I think it's a 2023. I think it will be early 2023. Early 2023 from Karen Friedman Agnifilo. You heard that prediction here, folks. And for those who are just tuning in to the Midas Touch Network for the first time, or for those who don't know the incredible Karen Friedman Agnifilo, Karen Friedman Agnifilo worked essentially three decades in the Manhattan DA's office. The comments that I always get, Karen, is no one believes that's true when I tell

them that, and I always get the private messages. But Karen worked three decades there, because people don't believe you could have possibly have worked three decades there in general when they see you. But you were the number two deputy in the entire office of the Manhattan District Attorney's Office. And so we are so humbled and so lucky to have Karen Friedman Agnifilo here to share her insights about the office that she led. She was Cy Vance's number two at the office. So when the news broke about Jack Smith, for example, we were so lucky and fortunate to have Karen Freeman Agnifilo who worked with Jack Smith. So instead of just like some of these other media networks out there, just speaking because, all right, I'm on this side of the issue. Let me just rage talk or just let you know my feelings that are not based on any objective data.

It's vital to us here that we bring on people like Irene Friedman Agnifil, so lucky to have her as a member of the network, to share her firsthand insights into these issues. And here, to have someone who led the Manhattan District Attorney's Office share her wealth of knowledge with you, we are so incredibly lucky. And Karen, what I feel happened today with these guilty convictions on these 17 felony counts, though, it feels to me like the floodgates have finally opened, where a lot of prosecutors who believe this Teflon Don BS, or perhaps not even prosecutors, just that prevailing narrative out here that nothing, no matter what, he's never going to be held accountable, that this was a step in the direction to kind of pierce which is really what it was. It was a facade. It's the bluster. It's the maniacal bravado that has intimidated Republicans into becoming MAGA Republican cult members

versus actually doing dignity to what the party may have once represented. And it's why people who were formerly with the Republican Party are leaving it and saying, what the heck is this weird cult? It's why there is this pro-normal, pro-democracy coalition that's forming out there that is not taking this Trump BS and the gaslighting and all the stuff that he does on social media doesn't matter because what matters is what's going on in the courtroom. And what happened in the courtroom is guilty on 17 felony counts for the Trump organization. To address some of the questions here, Rudy2RK writes, 17 felony convictions and a $1.6 million fine. I thought that was supposed to be a $250 million fine, or was that another case based in New York?

Yes, that was another case based in New York. That's the case involving New York Attorney General Letitia James, who brought a civil lawsuit for fraud against Donald Trump personally, Donald Trump's adult children personally, and the Trump Organization and the Trump Revocable Trust, among other Trump entities, seeking at least $250 million for fraudulent valuations of their properties, and that is set to go to trial in a civil case. Civil case is all about money at the end of the day and injunctions. Damages are awarded as opposed to guilt, and then an injunction could issue in that case, which could stop the Trump organization from ever doing business again in the state of New York. Now, that case is set for trial

early October of 2023. And it was set that date by Judge Arthur Engeron, the court overseeing it. And one of the things when I was talking about how that trial date was set for October 3rd, or I think it's October 3rd of 2023, a lot of the comments, though, were like, wow, more delay, what's the judge doing? And what kind of hit me at that moment, Karen, is that the important service of the Midas Touch Network, though, because it didn't even occur to me, though, practicing law in California, having cases in New York where I work with New York lawyers. We have a law office in the firm that we work for that has a law office in New York. The idea that a case that is filed in September of 2022 will have a trial date in New York

in October of 2023 is like the fastest trial date I've ever heard of in the state of New York, period. And that's just based on experience there. Any other litigant, and the reason why it's set so soon there, though, is because there was this special proceeding that had taken place where Trump took the Fifth Amendment over 400 times when he was asked the most basic questions about his properties. Right after all the bravado and bluster, Trump shows up to the deposition, Letitia James, the New York Attorney General's there, and she asked Donald Trump the most basic questions. So what is the value of your property, Trump Tower? What is the appraised value?

What was your valuation of it? All right, let's do it for Bedminster. Let's do it for Mar-a-Lago. What was the appraised value? What is the valuation? So you would think with all the bravado and Trump whatever, and he calls her all the names, I plead the fifth, I plead the fifth,

I plead the fifth, I plead the fifth on the most basic questions. Now, in a civil case, unlike a criminal case, when you take the Fifth Amendment, that is an adverse inference against you, meaning that the jury can look at the issues and the jury can basically say, or the judge can say, well, the person pleading the Fifth Amendment must be trying to hide something. We're going to view that their answer would be against their interest if they didn't invoke the Fifth. And even there, Judge Arthur Ngaran, in the motion for preliminary injunction to appoint the independent monitor, which was heard a month or two ago, said Trump

hasn't offered a single iota of evidence. Okay, not only did Trump plead the fifth, but Donald Trump didn't even provide an evidence from like an expert or evidence from someone who works for the organization saying, here's why the valuation is so significantly greater than what the appraised values are. And here's why we submitted these on our statements of financial condition. They didn't even do that. They made some weird argument that the New York Attorney General lacked jurisdiction, which there literally is a statute for the New York Attorney General to pursue this exact type of civil investigation. But going back to my point, the fact that there is a trial date in a civil case, October, it's going to fly by before it's October.

And that case is likely to, it's likely, I would assume, that Trump is going to, the Trump organization is going to be held liable there. And they're going to face hundreds of millions of dollars in damages in that case because it's at least $250 million in damages in that case, because it's at least $250 million in damages. And one of the next questions is, can this criminal case be used in the civil case? And the answer is most likely yes, because now that the Trump organization has been determined to engage in fraud, has determined to engage in this type of criminal conduct, usually past conduct of fraud can be used to demonstrate future conduct. Now, it's possible that the Trump Organization will file what's called a motion in limine and saying that it's too prejudicial to come in. But a guilty verdict for criminal fraud is something that would be highly relevant, highly probative, and far outweigh any prejudice. And so I think that comes into the civil trial, that this is an organization that has been adjudicated to be a

felon organization. And so while the penalty of $1.6 million may seem not that much, the fact that this organization is a felon will impact all of their ability to get loans from anyone in the United States or any credible lender abroad, which will probably become non-existent. And it can be used against them and will be used against them in future proceedings as well. Do you agree with that, Karen? I do agree with that, especially because this was a 13-year fraud that the Trump organization was convicted of today. This wasn't just a one-time, oh, I filed one piece of paper once. This was a scheme to defraud over a 13-year period that they have been convicted of. So I do think that's going to be very much used in the attorney general's civil case, where they do have

a different standard, a much easier standard. It's not beyond a reasonable doubt. It's preponderance of the evidence. But one thing I want to point out is that the DA, Alvin Bragg, the Manhattan DA, issued a press release today announcing the all-count conviction of the Trump Corporation and the Trump Payroll Corporation. And the way these press releases always are, they are always the same. They talk about kind of what happened and what the charges are, et cetera, et cetera, what the sentencing date is. But at the end, they think people, they always think whoever was involved in the case. And, say the case was handled by the chief of the investigation division, Susan Hoffinger, who's an excellent attorney and ADA at the Manhattan DA's office, and senior trial counsel, Josh

Steinglass, who's also a superstar at the Manhattan DA's office. But more interestingly, and what I found interesting was he also said the case was being handled at trial by special ADA Gary Fishman, who was cross-designated for this case from the New York Attorney General's office. being prosecuted by both Alvin Bragg and Tish James. This was a co-prosecution. They are working hand and glove. So they're very much working together on this case and the other cases, and there is no separation there. So I think that the civil case that's developing evidence into the Trump organization that you just talked about, also Tish James has made criminal referrals with respect to that case. There could also be a criminal case that will be brought in that matter as well.

And when you read that complaint that she brought, that sweeping complaint, and you hear about all of the fraud that the organization engaged in in that case, and then you have the case that happened that we got the conviction today, and they had testimony under oath and documents that they were able to obtain and put into evidence and records. I think there's a, still a possibility that, that, that we might see more, we might see an indictment of Trump at the Manhattan DA's office with, with respect to that matter as well, but we'll see.

And so Karen, as we head out here, want to give you the final word. How would you sum up what took place today? I would say that this is a huge victory for the Manhattan DA's office and for democracy, that the Trump organization has, for the first time ever, been convicted of 17 felonies. That's a very big deal. This is the organization that bears Trump's name,

his family name, and it's by far his most important business. And what a jury today found was that Trump himself, because this was the theory of the prosecution that Trump himself knew about and sanctioned this 13-year scheme to defraud and tax evasion of the people of the state of New York, federal government, and the local government. And so this is just a huge victory. I applaud the Manhattan DA's office, and I think there's going to be more to come. But this is an excellent, excellent verdict. Karen Friedman Agnifilo, thank you so much for joining us. I want to tell everybody out there who appreciated this coverage of the guilty verdict right here on the Midas Touch Network of the Trump Organization, check us out at our Patreon by going to patreon.com slash MidasTouch, P-A-T-R-E-O-N.com slash MidasTouch.

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