The MeidasTouch Podcast - Cults and the Rise of Far Right Authoritarianism with Dr. Steven Hassan, Olga Lautman & Monique Camarra

Episode Date: January 11, 2022

On today’s special edition of The MeidasTouch Podcast, we have two really incredible interviews lined up. The first interview is with author, educator, PhD and mental health counselor specializing in destructive cults, Dr. Steven Hassan. During this interview, Dr. Hassan details his own personal experience as a former cult member in The Moonies, his learnings/deprogramming techniques and what we can expect to hear from his new podcast, THE INFLUENCE CONTINUUM. Following this conversation, we head right into another fantastic and in-depth interview with Olga Lautman & Monique Camarra as they provide insights into the latest news involving Russia. Olga & Mo are the top experts in their fields who have devoted their lives to understanding Russia, Ukraine, Caucasus, and their effects on US national security and dangers posed to the West. To learn more please be sure to subscribe to their show, KREMLIN FILE, available anywhere you download your podcasts. If you enjoyed today’s podcast please be sure to rate, review and subscribe! As always, thank YOU for listening. DEALS FROM OUR SPONSORS: BLINKIST: blinkist.com/meidas ATHLETIC GREENS: athleticgreens.com/meidas HOW WE WIN: Subscribe to Swing Left’s Podcast, “How We Win” Remember to subscribe to ALL the Meidas Media Podcasts: MeidasTouch: https://pod.link/1510240831 Legal AF: https://pod.link/1580828595 The PoliticsGirl Podcast: https://pod.link/1595408601 The Influence Continuum: https://pod.link/1603773245 Kremlin File: https://pod.link/1575837599 Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen: https://pod.link/1530639447 Zoomed In: https://pod.link/1580828633 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Jordy joining you. I know Jordy is armed with arguments why he lost the Peloton race. We need some context for the Peloton. We need some context. Not everyone follows our great Twitter rivalry there, Ben.

Not everybody in the world knows. It's not like the Super Bowl. No one's. It's close. It's close. It's a close Super Bowl. Jordy Ben Peloton. Before we get into this, Ben, why don't you break down what we have, who we have coming on the show today?

We've got a very special episode. Oh, we have a great guest. We have Dr. Stephen Hassan, Ph.D., host of the new Midas podcast, the influence continuum. You may have seen Dr. Stephen Hassan's other works. He wrote the book, the cult of Trump. He's really the foremost expert in cult deprogramming. He was actually himself a member of the Moonies. We'll get into that story. And I think there's nothing more important right now than really analyzing cult deprogramming because what's going on with MAGA

is one of the largest, most dangerous cults we've seen in the history of mankind. And then of course, we're gonna have another Midas Touch, Midas Media podcast. The hosts, Olga Lautman and Monique Camara will be joining the Midas Touch Podcast today. We're going to be talking about the crisis posed by Russia right now. And it's a real serious situation out there with Russia and the border of Ukraine, Russia invading Ukraine. There are peace negotiations underway, if you want to call

it that. But we're not calling this situation another Cold War, but it really seems more and more like that's what's taking place. And so we will get their insight. One of the things I love, Ben, about the Midas Media Network and about having people like Olga and Mo and Dr. Hassan on the show is we get to have people who are so much smarter than us yes like these are really all dr hassan olga lautman monique camara these are the foremost experts in their fields and i'm just so honored and humbled to have them as part of the midas media network and i just want to say if you haven't yet subscribed to Kremlin File, do so now. The other podcast, The Influence Continuum with Dr. Stephen Hassan, dropped today for the first

time. You could hear the first episode, the introduction to the series. I highly recommend you subscribe to this podcast. I think it's one of the most important projects that we've ever done. Like I said, Dr. Hassan is the foremost expert in his field of cult deprogramming. He knows how mind control works because like Ben said, he was in the Moonies cult and was deprogrammed 45 years ago and has since dedicated his life to helping others get out of cults and understand mind control. And by the way, not just the bad parts of mind control, but Dr. Hassan also has ways of using the techniques of mind control to actually better your life and actually do positive things for yourself, which I think is interesting too. So please subscribe to Kremlin File, subscribe to Influence Continuum.

I am just so honored and humbled to have these incredible academics, these incredible experts as part of the Mindless Media Network. So let's just get into this Peloton race before we go into the news. I beat Jordy by about 100 kilojoule points on the output. It was one of my first Peloton races. Jordy's had the Peloton for about two years. I chose the race that morning. The race was the, I believe it was called the Latin Fiesta ride in the morning. I wasn't aware at the time that the language was Spanish language, but it turned out it was Spanish language. I don't think that matters, but I beat Jordi. Jordi, what's your argument about why you lost? Yeah, you beat me. But also, one, I didn't know we were racing. No one ever said it was a race to begin with. Two, like you said, it was the Latina Fiesta ride. And I don't I don't speak Spanish or

understand Spanish that well. I could read it decently. So being thrown into an environment- How did you understand then when they told you to increase the resistance? First up, Ben got a Peloton like a week ago. And I think we all have that friend who's obsessed with SoulCycle or Peloton or CrossFit or whatever it is. And maybe we could talk to Dr. Hassan about Ben's new cult that he just joined. The cult of Peloton? The cult of Peloton because Ben won't shut up about the play every day. Every text is the Peloton, the Peloton, and my whole expertise here is just not even getting involved. I have a fake Peloton, just a bike that I put my iPad on and watch videos to.

And I just refuse to engage in this and all that's going on. And before just going down to talking about today's- Hold on, Ben, true or false? Your partner, your longtime partner is a fluent Spanish speaker. True or false? You often spend a lot of family time with your partner's family who exclusively speak Spanish. True or false? True.

Okay. I rest my case. You can't watch and see. I mean, first of all, Peloton has you, it shows the inclines. Not during the live classes. Jordy, are numbers in Spanish or numbers in numbers? Not during classes. Let me just ask you one question, Jordy. Your main point is that you were unaware this is a race. This was not a race to you. No, my main point was that I had trouble understanding the cadence that I needed to be at during the race. That's my main point. Oh, so it was a race now. Yeah. I guess every ride is technically a race because there's a leaderboard. I like how Ben has to cross-examine about everything. Ben, I know where he's trying to go with this and I'm not going to let him box me into this. No, I'm not letting him box you in. Jordy says, first off, he started his argument. I just, I know, I know where he's trying to go with this and I'm just not, I'm not going to let him box me into this. I'm not letting him box you in. Jordy says, first off, he started his argument. I didn't realize it was a race. Jordy then realized,

wait a minute, were there text messages that say race? Cool. Jordy, you in for the race? I'm in for the race. Interesting. You all ready for the race? Yes. Let's race. So, I mean, Jordy knew what the text message, anyway, I will move on. But but anyway, we'll let the Midas Mighty decide the end of that argument. Brett, have you Jordy, have you seen the news about came out of Washington Post? They did an incredible report about how the Fox News hosts were basically running the United States government. I wish it wasn't a true story. Oh, they called it the what the Fox News cabinet. Basically, Trump relied on Sean Haddeny, Judge Deneen Pirro, Mark Levin, Lou Dobbs more than he actually relied on the cabinet. And those are the people running the United States government. We knew Fox had that influence. But

until this Washington Post report, did we really know, Brett, that it was this deep and this intense and all of those entanglements? I mean, I think we knew that he was getting his cues from Fox News in terms of he watches a lot of TV and he watches what they have to say and he takes what they say seriously. I don't think we really knew that these hosts were literally having direct one-to-one conversations with the president of the United States and that Trump was constantly checking in to see what the Fox News hosts were saying about his policies and what they were recommending that the country does. And these are people – I mean, we all know that everyone on Fox is basically crazy, but they do have some reasonable people, especially at that time. Chris Wallace was still at that network.

Brett Baer is semi-normal. But those were not the people that Trump was concerned about. I mean, Trump was taking direct orders from people like Jeanine Pirro, Judge Jeanine. He would say, Judge Jeanine thinks we should do this? He would ask, is Judge Jeanine okay with this? The fact that Judge Jeanine had power over the United States government is, first off, I mean, we have to acknowledge just the incredible breach of journalistic ethics. This is not journalism. could you imagine Rachel Maddow and Joy Reid and Jim Acosta acting as president Biden's cabinet, giving policy advice, president Biden going, Oh, I wonder what Maddow has to say about, about what we're doing tonight. No, that would be fucking crazy. And by the way,

that would still be far less crazy than what we're seeing here because these are not equivalents. Judge Jeanine is batshit crazy. And this woman actually had control over the United States government via Trump. That's what happens though when you have a weak impressionable leader who cares about appearances, and it cares about how Fox News thinks of him more than he actually cares about leading the country and doing right for the country. It's another indicia of the authoritarianism that was taking place. And if you look at historically authoritarian regimes, whether you go to Kim Jong Un's North

Korea, whether you go back to World War Two and Germany and and and Mussolini in Italy. Mussolini ran a newspaper. And the entanglements of the government with its official propaganda arm is one of the most important aspects in any authoritarian regime. And that's why basically codifying Fox News as an official authoritarian propaganda arm of the United States. I mean, it's so dangerous, but it's so consistent with the march towards authoritarianism. And as the article notes, Ben, they say journalists and media are supposed to be public checks on power, not private advisors to power. And that is an important distinction there.

And you also see just how full of shit these Fox News hosts are. It says in March, Tucker Carlson flew to Trump's private Mar-a-Lago club to warn of the seriousness of COVID-19. Carlson told Trump he might lose the election because of COVID, while Trump said the virus wasn't as deadly as people were claiming. This is the same Tucker, obviously, who's still pitching all sorts of various cures every single night for COVID, while simultaneously downplaying that COVID is even an issue. But let's be clear, Tucker knew damn well back then and knows now that COVID is a serious problem for this country and was so concerned

about it that he actually flew to Mar-a-Lago to speak to Donald Trump personally to warn him to try to help his election chances. Yeah. And what happened? You know, at the end of the day, they they basically meet, they message it together of how they're going to manipulate the country. And they come out with their messaging of being anti-vax, anti-mask. And that was basically the consensus after all of these conversations that when Fox News said, all right, Trump's going, you know, taking a hard turn, you know, to be basically pro-COVID. We got to be pro-COVID also. And we got to support the spread of this info on COVID. And this is why there's so much projection also coming out of Donald Trump's statements.

If you ever read a lot of his statements recently, he talks about the Democrat-controlled media. He'll use terms like that, how the Democrats control everything you consume and how they coordinate with the media. Well, that doesn't happen. But this was actually literally happening in the Trump White House. Direct coordination between Fox News, I was going to call them the press, they're not the press, between Fox News and- Parentheses, news and quotes. News and big ass quotes and the Trump White House, which like you said, Ben, is chilling. This is what happens in authoritarian regimes. This is what happens in authoritarian countries, not in the United States of America.

All Trump had to do was take COVID just the slightest bit seriously. We all know how hard it is to oust a president during war, during times and periods of war. If he actually made his whole candidacy, his whole reelection campaign, the war on COVID instead of the war against COVID. There's a little bit of distinction there that I think everyone could understand. He would have won. It would have been a layup for him, but instead he sided with COVID. He promoted COVID. Absolutely unbelievable. Oh, I just going back. It has memories of when Trump got COVID and then he like wanted all the people to wave to him. It was such weird. That was one of the craziest weeks, I think, in American history that week where all of a sudden everybody was going down with COVID in the administration and Trump gets wheeled off to

Walter Reed. And then you see the pictures of him in that little office and he comes out looking like he just got off a ventilator and he like can't breathe and he takes off the mask. That was the the weirdest one of the scariest also moments in american history right you have the death of ruth bader ginsburg which precedes the super spreader event um that they held for amy coney barrett and then everyone contracts covet trump goes to the debate knowing he has covet to try to infect Joe Biden. Doesn't test beforehand. Well, he tested positive. Yeah, he doesn't test at the debate, but he tested positive. It was one of the craziest weeks. In other news, I guess MAGA's moved on and they're now telling people to drink

their pee is what they're saying as the remedy, not the vaccine. You're supposed to drink your pee. According to MAGA, one of these anti-vax MAGAs, Christopher Key basically explained that urine therapy is what is how you treat COVID. Brett, can you play the clip? Yeah, I'm going to play the clip and I'm just going to say in case any YouTube algorithms try to access for playing such ridiculous disinformation that this is what you're about to hear is obviously complete and total bullshit please get vaccinated and do not listen to quacks like this but let's hear maga's new covid cure when i tell you this please you know take it with a grain of salt but go do the research okay because this is going to just be like there's no way but the antidote i'm going to kill my credibility, but what credibility do I have anyway? So, right.

The antidote that we've seen now, and we have tons and tons of research, is urine therapy. Okay? And I know to a lot of you, a lot of you, this sounds crazy, but guys, God's given us everything we need okay all right we we're good i think we get we get the point of urine therapy and what i've never seen somebody more unconvincing also like he he doesn't even buy his own bullshit or his own piece his own stream of consciousness maybe it's a better term to use he doesn't buy his own stream

of consciousness his own stream while he's even saying this, he's like, I know this is gonna damage my credibility, but let me throw something out there. Have you tried drinking your own pee? Do you think there's like a competition maybe? Is there a competition amongst these people? Like I wonder what we could get them to do next, like eat their own shit?

No, no, that's a step too far. Let's start with pee. Let's start with pee. We'll work our way up. Well, I don't know what's going on in this thing, but they're putting the P in GQP. That's what I know. There's always a P in GQP. Speaking of GQP, Ron Johnson from Wisconsin, he announced that he's going to be running

I think he just liked saying that. Ron Johnson from Wisconsin. Isn't that the guy who spent July 4th in Moscow? Yeah, him and many other Republicans spent July 4th in Moscow. He's also the guy who has been continuously promoting also other fake COVID cures, which aren't too far off from pee, and continues to downplay the virus and continues to downplay January 6th and act like he was Antifa and Black Lives Matter. I mean, Ron Johnson, he's a horrible human being. This is a horrible person, a traitor to this country. And he was waffling about whether he was going to run or not.

And he's since decided that he is going to run. And, you know, he's just, he's so bad for this country, this guy. And we should do everything that we can to make sure that Wisconsin knows how horrible this man is. I love when we did those billboard trucks over the summer on this July 4th, Jordy, to commemorate what you exactly said. We had said Ron Johnson spent the 4th of July in Russia. We had those driving around all around Wisconsin. But this is a sick man. This is a bad man and a traitor to this country. And he belongs nowhere near the United States government.

He wants to take away your health care. He's against the Affordable Care Act. He's pro-COVID. He's pro the pandemic. He would ban abortions in the state of Wisconsin. He opposed a bill that would have eliminated the time limit for child sex abuse victims to bring lawsuits. So he opposed that for giving justice to child sex abuse victims. He rejects the idea of climate change. These are actual policy positions. And he replaced Russ Feingold from McCain Feingold, who introduced incredibly important legislation that were creating fairness in our election process. And he replaced a real serious intellectual, you know, great thinker that was great for Wisconsin. We're trying to have intellectual conversations and talk to people about complex issues like climate change while these people are drinking urine. Or there, you know, it reminds me of the movie Don't Look Up. I mean, you know, that which was, you know, about climate change, obviously. But we know what's going on.

I mean, to have people like Ron Johnson just have their greed allow. What's the point of government if you don't have health care? What's the point of government? So people should just die is the point of government to support the death of the citizens. That seems to be Ron Johnson's policy on every single issue, being not recognizing climate change. The thing is they've gone beyond a conservative point of view. A conservative point of view, I guess, would be we want limited government. We think government should stand for the national defense. And beyond that, not much else. Beyond that, it's kind of pull yourself up for your own bootstraps, let everything work, free markets, let's just stand off, let's not get involved in anything. But it's so far beyond that because what these people are doing is they are getting the government involved in everything in a negative way. They're getting the government involved in ways where

they're spreading conspiracy theories, where they are weaponizing misinformation and disinformation and are spreading it. They are getting involved in schools and are banning books. They are threatening teachers. They are arresting journalists. None of these are conservative things, which is why I get so angry when people say conservative Senator Ron Johnson. I'm like, what is conservative about the guy that he told people that Listerine cures COVID? Is that conservative? Is that conservative ideology? Because that's not what I grew up thinking about what conservatism was. At least if you're going to be conservative, be consistent in your ideology. What this is though, what we're seeing from the GQP is a brand of far right authoritarian fascism. That's what's happening here. And as we speak today to

academics like Dr. Hassan, like Olga and Mo from Kremlin File, who have been studying far-right autocratic movements across Europe, I'm sure they'll be able to tell us a ton of similarities to these disinformation campaigns that we're hearing from people like Senator Ron Johnson, and a ton of similarities between these far- right movements that we're seeing in Europe to what we're seeing today in the Republican Party. That's why I really don't like the labels conservative liberal anymore. Like, I legitimately believe as someone who supports progressive policies across the board and someone who would identify as liberal when you check every box of what a liberal is. I believe I am still far more conservative than a Ron Johnson, a Don Trump, a Jim Jordan, any of that ilk, a Marco Rubio. There's nothing conservative about those policies. I do not support insurrectionists. I believe in our capitalist system, but I also

believe people should live and have the best healthcare available. I believe people should have the best education available to them so our business and economy prospers. I believe in the existence of climate change because you can see it because it's like the asteroid that literally is right there before your very eyes. And I think a conservative person would say, hey, we need to conserve the planet Earth. If we want to have anything, any business, any whatever we need to have, let's start off with the existence of planet Earth. But all these wacky conspiracy theories is the antithesis of what conservative is. And then just finally, Brett, before we bring in our first guest, Steve Hassan, Jim Jordan, you saw his letter to Congress. I believe Jim Jordan back in July with

respect to the January 6th committee, he says, look, January 6th, give me a call. I got nothing to hide. That's what he said back in July. Then this October, when they reached out and they said, hey, we'd like to talk to you, right? He said, I've said all along this quote, I have nothing to hide. And this weekend, by the way, it's also weird that they send letters on a Sunday. Like he couldn't send the letter Monday morning. Just a strange date to send a letter like that. But anyway, Well, because he's hoping that it gets drowned out by the Monday news cycle. And his long letter Sunday, it's a witch hunt this is you know i'm not talking to the january four pages to basically say i i why i did nothing wrong don't question me on anything

or i'm just extremely guilty and if i speak to you i'm going to incriminate myself but the jan 6 committee moves on methodically. And when we see these four page letters, like from Jim Jordan, when we see Donald Trump filing lawsuits against the January six committee and Mark Meadows. And here's the thing about Jim Jordan, the committee knows everything they know.

They have all of his texts. They have all the messages. They know all the information. If anything, he's just a corroborating witness. They know everything before they start requesting information from these people, I would think. I think they have a full accounting of everything that happened already, and they're just trying to get them in to maybe catch them on a lie or to build some other information around what they already have. But they already have the information.

What I'm eyeing for, hopefully this week, I want to see a contempt charge for Mark Meadows. This seems to be taking a while. When do you think we're going to see that? I'd like to see it take place soon. You know, it's a more difficult balance because he was in the executive office. He was the chief of staff. It's, you know, Bannon is a very easy one. The Mark Meadows one will just be as a technical matter, you know, more difficult because in the past to actually hold an executive officer, chief of staff, not only in contempt, but to actually charge them with the crime after the referral is something that's unprecedented in our country.

But something that is needed. This podcast is brought to you by Blinkist. I love Blinkist. Before I even did the podcast, I was always using the Blinkist books. I would get all my books from Blinkist, where they would basically give me a summary of the book. And rather than having to read, and don't get me wrong, I like to read the full books as well, but they basically break it down in five, six minutes of all of the key points. And truly at the end of the day, when I go back and I read the three, 400, 500 page book, and I go through my notes, like Blinkist does as good of a job, if not a better. What's your

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on the Midas Media Network came out today. But before that, Dr. Hassan has done some incredible, incredible work. He's written the book, The Cult of Trump and Combating Mind Control. His own experience was one of the formative things to that that inspired his career. He was a member of the Mooney's cult, was deprogrammed over 45 years ago, and has dedicated his life to helping people get out of cults and deprogramming. So welcome to the podcast. Yeah, thanks, guys, so much. Thank you for your good work. And we need to engage more citizens around the world to oppose authoritarianism because that's the big picture as I see it. So tell us, for those out there who have not yet read The Cult of Trump, what made you write The Cult of Trump and what were your kind of central findings in that work? Wow. Okay. So the fast explanation is that when I was 19, I was dumped by my girlfriend and I was

sitting in the Queens College Student Union waiting for my next class. I was a creative writing major and three Mooney women flirted with me, lied to me, said that they were students, etc. And it sent me down a rabbit hole for over two and a half years where I became a right wing fascist and turned my back on my religion, which is Judaism. I should say I was born and raised 1.3 miles from Donald Trump in Flushing, Queens, by the way. I was on the cheap side of Union Turnpike. He was in Jamaica Estates. I had a small little attached house. But I turned 180 degrees within a few weeks, threw out my my poetry thought my family was satanic thought moon who later is a convicted felon he died in 2012 but the cult persists and Sean moon was actually at January 6th saying it was Antifa the

Mooney newspaper the Washington Times said it was Antifa disinformation disinformation but disinformation. But at the point that I nearly died in a van crash due to sleep exhaustion and was away from the group for two weeks. So my brain started to like sleep like I was sleeping three to four hours a night for two and a half years. I slept, I reached out to my sister. I had no conscious doubts about the cult at that point, but I was deprogrammed just to prove to my family I wasn't in a cult and I

wasn't brainwashed. I agreed to talk to the ex-Moonies. And when I learned about Chinese communist brainwashing, and I realized Moon was a liar, and therefore was untrustworthy and therefore couldn't be a man of God. I went, what happened to me? And I cried for three hours. And then I started researching brainwashing and mind control, talking to all the former military intelligence folks. And it was, I credit Robert J. Lifton, who will be our next podcast interviewee. He wrote the seminal book called Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism, which came out in 1961. When I asked to meet with him, he said, what about, I said, your book saved my life.

He said, which one? Because the guy wrote, I don't know, 20 books at that point. I said, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism. So he said, okay, come and meet with me. And I started to explain how I was recruited and how I was trained to recruit and indoctrinate people. And he looked me in the eye. At this point, he's a Yale psychiatrist professor. He looked me in the eye.

He said, you know, I just studied this second hand, but you've lived it. They did it to you and you did it to other people. And what you're describing is so much more sophisticated than what I studied. You need to study psychology and explain it to people like me. And there I was, I was 22 years old, ashamed, embarrassed, had a cast on my leg from my toes to my groin. And this Yale psychiatrist is telling me I can say something of value. And it set my life course. I had no idea I'd be doing this work 45 years later. But here I am. And the need is greater than ever. And the need is greater than ever. So it sets your life

course in this direction. You devote your life to getting others out of these destructive situations, helping others deprogramming. But, you know, when I grew up and watched, you know, and heard about the cults, whether it's, you know, the moonies or whether it's, you know, the groups that think that the asteroid was going to come and then they commit. Yeah. The hell bop comet of heaven's gate. Right. You know, it was always still kind of viewed as, you know, those people are, you know, and I, I hate to say the term, but this is what I felt growing up. Like those are just kind of crazy people that can't happen to me. That's just them. And look how wacky that all is. But as you've just been continuing on

with the services you've been providing in your professional career, now the entanglement though has become so mainstream as you have the cult of Trump and literally a United States president using those cult tactics to create a cult, is it fair to even call it a death cult of people who are rejecting science? And it is a movement of 50, 60, 70 million people in the country. And so as you saw that, what was going through your mind? And now your work is more relevant than ever. Yeah. So I apologize for not answering your question because you asked about how did I come to write The Cult of Trump? The truth is, is that I've

really not been a political person my whole life. I'm really a creative guy and a therapist, a licensed mental health counselor who helps to heal. But at the point that I was researching ISIS recruitment online in 2015, and was actually part of an invitation only Aspen Institute meeting on countering ISIS with counter terrorism folks. And then Trump said, we need a Muslim ban. I was like, I wrote a HuffPost piece, Trump, ISIS's greatest recruiter, you know, how to get people to sign up for ISIS. Just talk about a Muslim ban in the United States and that'll really help our enemies. So I was like, oh, my God.

I mean, I grew up in New York. So I and I watched at least 10 minutes of The Apprentice before I was like, oh, my God, what a dip, you know, and what a ridiculous person this is. But I was and then I started watching the debates with the other GOPs. And I'm like, oh, he's using NLP. Oh, which is neurolinguistic programming, which is a process-oriented hypnotic training regime that I actually learned in 1980 and 81, part of my research and understanding brainwashing and mind control. And I was getting more and more alarmed because I understood what he was doing and everyone else didn't get just how dangerous he was. At which point, my agent said, you need to do a book called The Cult of Trump.

And I was like, that title is going to alienate all the believers. I can't do that. He said, yeah, but they're not going to read your book anyway, and everybody else needs to understand cults. And this is a chance for you to get your work to a much higher level, because Simon and Schuster was inevitably the publisher. So long story short, I felt like, you know, being Jewish, I was raised post Holocaust, Cold War, you know, like I went under my wooden desks in elementary school because Russia was

going to nuke us like that was my, my mindset and being asked to write a book about the cult of Trump, I couldn't say no, because the danger was so obvious. And what I started with, and I'll finish this point, is that I knew he was a malignant narcissist, which is the stereotypical profile of all cult leaders. Not only the need for entitlement and grandiosity and lack of empathy, but all the psychopathic stuff too, the thinking they're above the law, pathological lying. So that was the start of my

research was just knowing I was going to do a chapter paralleling Trump with Jim Jones, I decided Hubbard of Scientology, and my former cult leader Sun Myung Moon. That was the beginning. But then as I started researching it, I realized the cult of Trump is comprised of cults like real for real authoritarian cults and that's who's influencing Trump and that's his base and the media has got it completely wrong so the whole thing evolved but the book isn't just about Trump it's it's Trump as the symptom of a 50, 60 year plan to destroy democracy in the United States and insert a theocracy. Dr. Hasen, you mentioned a technique that Trump used during the debate. What was the name of that technique again?

Oh, he was using something that's called neuro-linguistic programming or NLP, which I put in chapter five of the Cult of Trump. And this is something I learned about in 1980 because I had read, I don't know how many thousands of pages on brainwashing and persuasion and attitude change, and there was a missing sauce. And I didn't know what it was until a social worker friend said, I'm going to this hypnosis workshop, want to come along? And Richard Bandler, one of the co founders of NLP was teaching and I was pacing in the back of the room, because this was the first workshop I dared to go to after my cult Mooney workshops that I was indoctrinated in and I did for others. So I was a little afraid to say the least, but I'm like, that's what I used to do in the Moonies.

I used to talk like that. I knew the tonality. I knew the linguistic pattern. And I was like, oh oh my God, I need to learn this stuff. I want to understand what was done to my mind and what I did to other people without realizing it. And that's the point, without realizing. Do you think Trump knows that he's engaging in that technique? Or is he just someone who, because he's a malignant narcissist, does those things, and it actually has that effect?

Good question. So in my, I think it the KKK and authoritarianism, a mother who didn't love him, military school because he had knives or whatever. And he was raised in a cultish group of Norman Vincent Peale, which is the foundation of a lot of his base now, is what's called prosperity ministry, which has nothing to do with like Orthodox Christianity, where Jesus was like, my kingdom is not of this world, or it's harder for a rich person to go through an eye of a needle and a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. These are the televangelists who say, "'Give us all your money and God will bless you tenfold." Like put all of your tithes on credit cards, right?

So this kind of magical thinking, just believe it and it will manifest. That's what he was trained in as a child. And later on, there was a whole phenomenon of pickup artists where people were teaching NLP techniques, how to get people to have sex with them that would normally never give them the time of day. And later, Tony Robbins, who is like one of the major large group awareness trainers and corporate trainers. He learned NLP, cut a deal with,

with Bandler and Grinder and he rebranded his stuff to talk about how to be effective communicators. The only problem is as I see it is if you're an ethical, unethical person, as I realized NLP was becoming more and more unethical, it had no morality. And this type, these types of techniques can be used to harm people in so many ways. And now we're seeing the manifestation. So coming back, Ben, to your comment, I want to just state categorically if I hadn't been recruited

into a cult I would never believe that an intelligent educated person from a nice family intact family who lived in the same house who played basketball could become a right-wing fascist who felt like I had to take over the U.S. government and run my own country one day. I was actually told, you should think what country you want to run one day, Steve, when we take over. That's wild. One of the things that stuck out to me from the introduction of the podcast, The Influence Continuum, which is available now anywhere you get podcasts, you got to listen to this podcast it's it's brilliant it's a phd level course on cults and culty programming and the power of your mind um but you made a comment to to the effect of like how does steve hassan a

flushing queen son of milton and estelle hassan uh fall into that fall into this and i thought that was interesting that's my weak part point and I later came to learn from former intelligence agency operatives, is honeypotting, which is using attractive women to bait somebody either into a compromising position or in my case, come over for dinner and meet my friends. We're going away this weekend. Come and join us. Dr. Justin Marchegiani But Dr. Hassenfield, it was more than just women though.

I feel like there was, in reading your story and listening to your works, it was also about power. What the Moonish Church said to you was basically, you could live your current life. It's almost like The Matrix, the red pill or the blue pill. You could live your current life and write your poems and be downtrodden and be a single man who has just got broken up with his girlfriend, or you could be a leader. You could lead this movement. And so could you talk about that empowerment that you were given and how that plays a role? Sure. Great, great question. Yeah. I, if you had asked Steve before I met the moonies, are you interested in politics or money or power? I would say no. Like I saw myself as a banquet waiter at Holiday Inn in in

Hempstead, Long Island, and poetry and teaching English writing courses in college. That was my vision for myself. But life has this, you know, weird, you know, formula of things that happen. So there's so much I want to share, but I want to state categorically, the single most important principle of social psychology is called the fundamental attribution error. I know this is a lot of syllables, fundamental attribution error. What it means is that human beings around the world have a bias, an unconscious bias. When they're trying to figure out other human beings' behaviors, they have a bias to overestimate the disposition or personality variable and underestimate

the social influence contextual variables. In other words, I wanted to be the best person I could be and I wanted to make the world a better place. Those are the two universal needs that people get approached by destructive cults by do you want to be the best person brett you can be ben how about you do you want to like live to your fullest extent or do you want to like waste your time and energy so that's what's called a double bind in psychology. In fact, this all or nothing, as if there were no third choices or fourth or fifth choices.

And in my case, I had a dad, old school father, who always was like, what I did wrong instead of what I did right. And I tell the brief story that I got a 97 on a statewide regents in history. And one other person in the state got a 97. No one got higher and mostly everybody flunked. And I was so excited. I told my dad, and he said, Well, what happened to the three points? You know, but with the Mooney recruiting person person his name was Kamiyama who selected me he said he was like a pseudo father who was like I believe in you you have great leadership abilities that you have no idea about but I'm gonna help bring out the best in you. And that was more the allure in the beginning, was this relationship. Not to make it so black and white, because it's obviously far more complex than you could

describe in a minute, but I see parallels to what you're saying when I witness people kind of heading towards the QAnon kind of beliefs, kind of beliefs that they're people who in some way feel powerless, but that this movement tells them that you, you have the secrets. You are the one in control. You are the one who can make this happen. Would that be an accurate assessment? And is that what you see with QAnon and even MAGA as a whole? Absolutely. So, you know, as humans, we're wired to follow who we perceive to be legitimate authority figures. And we're also hardwired to identify

and follow people that we respect who are in our peer group or in our identification groups. Why? Because deep down inside, we want to survive. It's a defense mechanism. And we need to use critical evaluation to go, wait a minute, is somebody selling me a dream

that has nothing to do with reality, like multi-level marketing cults, which many millions of people have been sucked into and lost countless millions of people have been sucked into and lost countless millions of dollars so but the point the point is is as a recruiter for the moonies I was taught to evaluate people in terms of are they a thinker a feeler a doer or a believer and depending on interacting with them I was able to determine the right way to approach them to recruit them.

So there was a customization of recruitment. Now we're dealing in an age where we have all this data that's been taken from us, about us, 5,000 estimated data points on every voting American. And there are algorithms that bad actors can use to find our buttons. In other words, we don't cults don't need to have actual contact with you to ask you questions anymore. In this day and age, AI and the data and platforms are being used and weaponized. And what I, in the book, talked about fourth generation

psychological warfare techniques that are being used. Right, so technology has actually made it easier to recruit people into cults. And I think one of the things that- And by the millions. So the question is, how do we de-radicalize millions of people? And the only answer is massive educational efforts. Like nobody wants to follow a liar or a cheat that's going to ruin their life or destroy their

marriage or their families consciously. But the indoctrination bypasses people's conscience, their own inner questions and voices. Phobias are installed in people, irrational fears that if they don't follow, terrible things are going to happen to them or the country or the world. And so as you were saying, the red pill or the blue pill, that is a metaphor for any destructive mind control call. So is it a bit like a video game where you kind of have to like take down the boss in order to break people out of the spell?

Like do you need to delegitimize the leader in order to break people from the spell? Is that the most important aspect, do you think? So that's a really good question. And I would want to state categorically that direct assaults on the leader, the doctrine or an asshole or a cult leader, it made me feel persecuted and it made me double down on my commitment to the group. What helped me question the group was when people from the outside were being nice to me and respectful of me and asking me questions that made me think. And that's what I've been saying for 45 years is,

hey, listen, mind control is not 100%. It's not permanent. There's a person under there with all the cult indoctrination that's been done on top of them. I had my Mooney identity. Moon was my true parent, and Milton and Estelle were my satanic physical parents. But the real me was still listening and recording things. But the key was how to access Steve and get him to reflect on how he got involved. And it involves asking a question in a respectful, thoughtful way. Now, where people get hung up is you have a loved one, you see them change 180 degrees, and everybody just wants to naturally shake them. Wake up, Jordy, wake up,

man, or Brett, you know, come on, dude, you're smarter than this, right? But that pushes them deeper in, paradoxically, versus, hey, Brett, hey, Jordy, hey, Ben, I respect you. You're intelligent. You're educated. Please tell me how you came to get interested in this. Go back to your first memory of Donald Trump, for example. And when I ask people, what was your first contact with Rajneesh or what was your first contact with Moon or Hubbard, they were like, I thought he was an asshole.

I thought he was a jerk or I thought he was crazy. And you get people back to their authentic self to then start to reevaluate what actually has been done to them in the context of talking and with MAGA folks, talking about Chinese communist brainwashing works, talking about pimps and traffickers and the techniques they use to groom and indoctrinate people. They'll be interested in that as long as you don't attack the leader at first. First, you build the foundation that social psychology explains. And I have what I refer to as my influence continuum of ethical to unethical, and the bite model of authoritarian control, which I did my doctoral research on behavior control, information control, thought control,

and emotional control. And on my freedomofmind.com website, you can see the long list under each one of these things, the more you can tick off, the more authoritarian, whatever you're into a relationship or a business or a religious group or whatever. And then you can go, wait a minute, I'm in, I was in a cult. And that's what I hear all the time from people who've read combating cult mind control, for example. They're like, I knew the Moonies were a cult. I didn't think I was in a cult, but I read your book and now I realize I was in a cult. That's what works. One of the wild things, Dr. Hassan, is you said this earlier and I don't want to gloss over it, but a lot of these right

wing leaders that we have in this country are in actual cults. Like I'm not even talking about MAGA and is MAGA a cult, but they're in actual cults. And somebody specifically who mentioned, well, first we've seen Donald Trump speak at Mooney events. We've seen Mike Pence, we've seen Mike Pompeo, we've seen Newt Gingrich all speak at Mooney events, which is horrifying in and of itself. But you actually say that Mike Pence is in a cult, yeah? Yeah, it's called The Family. Jeffrey Charlotte wrote two New York Times bestselling books, and he has an excellent Netflix series called The Family.

And this was a cult that was started anti-communist. So we need to do for Jesus what the communists are brainwashing people to be atheists about. That was the mentality. So the family does the national prayer breakfasts for all these years, and they think nothing to recruit Democrats as well as Republicans, as well as atheists, as well as dictators in other countries, because they wanted power and control, basically, in that particular cult. But in the book, I talk about Opus Dei, the Catholic authoritarian cult at William Barr. I wrote about being on their board of directors of their entity in D.C. talk about New Apostolic Reformation, which are a group of people who are self-proclaimed apostles or prophets that claim to get direct revelations from God and claim to cast out demons and do

faith healing. And it's those that is the base of the cult of Trump, where these people are being told they're spiritual warriors against the demon, you know, enemy. Yeah, I don't think many people realize that literally a lot of the people who are at the center of the power structure in the Trump administration are in literal cults. And yeah, they are actual authoritarian cults. So I, in my influence continuum, I take the position that there are healthy cults and authoritarian cults. Like I'm in the cult of TEDx.

I've done two now, and I love TEDx. Ben's in the cult of Peloton. And I'm the cult of Mac. I was interviewed for a book called The Cult of Mac, and I laughed when the guy wanted to interview me. And I said, I'll do it. But I have to disclose, I've only used Apple since 1982. And I have three iPhones and three iMacs, etc. And I'm a scuba diving cult member too, right? So but the point is, you need to have informed consent to know what you're getting into. You have to have the ability to ask direct questions and get direct answers you have to be able to read critical information and talk to

X members to decide if there's you know credibility and you need to have the ability to exit without fear of harassment or threats right you need to have the freedom to choose that's what's a healthy cult. And authoritarian cults, man, if you disobey, they turn on you and want to bite your legs off. That ability to read critical information and really understand it is vital, especially in 2022 media landscape. Now, cults have often laundered their messaging through legitimate looking publications like the Washington Times.

Can you tell us more about that? Yes, so Ann Nelson wrote a book called Shadow Network about the Council for National Policy. It turns out the Moonies were founding members of that. And in fact, a member of that, James Whelan, was installed as the founding editor of the Washington Times, which he did for decades. The papers didn't make money. And the Washington Post estimated $2 billion in a business that didn't make money hmm who has two billion dollars to do propaganda over decades in our nation's capital hmm question um literally there are a group of people who want

to promote global climate change as a hoax why Because they have a lot of coal and oil reserves, like the coke industry, Putin, the Saudis, etc. They want to keep confusion that in fact, human made, you know, climate change is a problem. But it's science, right? So there's, there's this attack to confuse people. And frankly, if you want to brainwash somebody, you got to confuse them, disorient them, overload them first. So they're already in a state of diminished capacity to evaluate what's happening, right? And unfortunately, the pandemic has created a perfect storm of vulnerability for everyone, because I don't know anyone who isn't anxious and stressed out and worried. And we're spending too much time on our screens, and I'm guilty of this too.

And we really need to realize technology should serve humans. We should not serve the technology or the people who own the platforms who have authoritarian agendas. Dr. Steve Hassan, what should folks expect to hear week in and week out from the Influence Continuum podcast? So I wanted to call it the Influence Continuum because there really is an ethical side and an unethical side.

And I want to teach people how to control their own minds, like how the mind works, how to recover if you've already come out of a destructive cult, whether you were born in it or recruited. I want people to understand, for example, there's ethical applications of hypnosis that can really profoundly help people with immune system functions, with memory and concentration. But the key is you need the locus of control in you, not in somebody else who says, surrender your power and follow me as the guru, etc. That's why you need to go to a mental health professional with ethics and not just anyone who says, I know hypnosis. I have an interview with a woman who's been teaching parenting workshops for 60 years, how to help raise healthy kids. So I don't want it just to be negative stuff about how messed up things are and what we need to do to save our human rights and democracy,

but also things that people will find useful in their day-to-day life. Dr. Hassan, such a brilliant podcast. I want to thank you for everything that you're doing in this field. I think it's more important than ever these days. I hope everybody goes right now and subscribes to the podcast, the Influence Continuum, available anywhere that you find podcasts. Dr. Stephen Hassan, thank you for joining us on the Mind of Such podcast. And thank you, all of you, Brett, Jordi, Ben. Thank you for believing in me and offering me this opportunity. I've been doing interviews and putting it in my YouTube,

and people have been saying, do a podcast, do a podcast. But when you said, oh, do a podcast, we'll put it on our platform, I was like, okay, great. The honor is all ours, Dr. Hassan. Thank you so much. We'll be right back with more of the Midas Touch podcast after this. Thanks, guys. This podcast is brought to you by Athletic Greens. I love Athletic Greens. I use Athletic. You got the Athletic Greens right there. I have Athletic Greens every day. Let me just break down what Athletic

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M-E-I-D-A-S, and take ownership of your health and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance today. We're joined with two people who may be my favorite people in the world. It's not an exaggeration because we need to save the world right now. And they seem to be not the only people, but amongst a very small group of people really focused on some of the existential threats facing our planet right now and our safety, which is what's going on in Russia. So I want to welcome Olga Lautman, Monique Camara to the show. You can go on and on, but both have incredible backgrounds as researchers. They've devoted their entire lives to this area, and rightfully so. And they are the hosts of the Midas Touch podcast, Kremlin File. Olga and Monique, welcome to the show.

Hi. Hi. Thank you. Thank you for having us on. Hearts to everybody. And so I'm so glad, I'll start with you, Olga, that you're doing the Kremlin File podcast. And first off, I should just say congratulations, Arun Ardu. You just announced that you are now a senior fellow at the Center for European Policy Analysis, SIPA.

So congrats on that. Thank you. I am very excited. It's such an amazing organization. A huge achievement. Yeah. And they're doing such good work in alerting everyone to the existential threats that exist. And it's great that organizations like that exist.

And, you know, we need to highlight the existence of those organizations and promote their work in their tweet announcing you as a co-host of the Kremlin File podcast, an expert on organized crime operations in Russia and Ukraine, and the Kremlin's campaign to destabilize democratic practices and influence foreign elections. So my question, Olga, from the outset is, yes, SIPA's focused on this. You're focused on Kremlin File. How do we get people to wake up and understand what's going on? I mean, it has to be a set of measures starting from the U.S. government. Well, on a bigger scale from Europe and U.S. and the West and anyone who values freedoms and, you know, democracy. Highlighting the threat that Russia poses. I mean, it has to be a very uniform message coming across all governments that Russia is indeed a threat, because we get a lot of mixed messages. We have, you know, again, right now, Russia being elevated on the world stage with

their imaginary threat that they suddenly, you know, woke up to by NATO, despite not having, you know, any fears of this over the past 20 years. So on one hand, we need that. And on the other hand, we also need to educate people on the local level of how to counter disinformation, because Russia is winning in the information space. And we really, really need people to be aware of the tactics and methods they use in order to make sure that when they see it, you know, like New York says, you see something, say something. So let's break that down, the two things that you said. First off, to our audience who may not be aware of everything, a lot of them listen to Kremlin File, but some may be tuning into Kremlin File after this interview.

What is the threat? What is going on at the most basic level? How do you communicate that to our audience who we don't hear about Russia in the news that much other than, you know, yeah, as you mentioned, maybe them playing the victim to a NATO or some of the disinfo stuff, but what's the threat and what's going on right now? Well, the threat is having a democracy where people can, you know, have these podcasts, have these discussions,

and the government doesn't throw you out of windows for disagreeing with them or pointing out things or an autocracy. And I mean, US, over the past few years is sliding into an autocracy and it's not affecting regular households. But if we do become an autocracy, people like me and you and anyone who is speaking out for freedoms will be hauled off to jail. So that is the most basic thing. It's good versus evil, autocracy versus democracy. And Monique, though, people say, but that's happening in Russia. That's not happening in the United States. What's the threat to all of those people? What threat does that country cause us here in the United States right now? And why should we care? Yeah, it's a great question. The whole thing is to understand that whatever is happening everywhere else in the world,

especially in areas that are targeted by Russia, autocracies, autocratic-minded politicians, this is no longer a game where it's just happening in the States, or in Italy, or in France, or in Germany, it's all interconnected. So you have groups that are operating in Europe, that's right, Olga, that's where it started. We saw the first big manifestations in Ukraine, but even before that in Georgia. And then it started to move over to the United States. So people really need to understand that this is no longer, okay, something that is isolated in the United States, and that's it. It's happening as a network of autocracies. And there's lots of people who are writing about this. As Olga was saying, one thing that we need to remember is that at our

local levels, you can see manifestations of this. And I see it, for example, I'm in Italy and I watch CNN. I watch MSNBC. I watch all sorts of known news from the States. And I can see all of this playing out. What we had to deal with here basically was something that was exported into the United States, especially after 2016, but probably even before that. So we need to understand that, for example, a cyber attack that happens in Europe, okay, somewhere, it's going to happen in the States eventually. And it does, right, Olga? It is. Exactly. And when you get a cyber attack, these are things that hit you directly. You can't go to your bank. Your lights go off. Your TV goes on the fritz. I mean, there are also industries.

So this is what we're talking about. We need to get out of the mentality that we are all a little separate in our little boxes. They don't operate that way. They operate as a network. We need to start operating as a network as well. That's why it's great that Midas Touch, right, has decided to not only talk about autocracy in the United States, but what is happening in Europe and also where it's coming from. It's fantastic, you guys. You guys are doing a great job. And just to bring it to a very, very basic level, Russia's goal is to destroy the United States.

That has been their goal for the past 100 years. To bring it to a very basic level, everyone in the United States paid more for gas over the summer. Why? Because Russia hacked the colonial pipeline. People are dying in the United States paid more for gas over the summer. Why? Because Russia hacked the colonial pipeline. People are dying in the United States. Why? Because Russia is amplifying all the COVID disinformation, all the anti-vaccine, anti-mask movements. This is affecting every single family, every single household.

That's right. What happened to the days, though, where we were united as a country, whether you were a Republican or a Democrat? We all cheered on those words. I think Mr. Gorbachev tear down the wall and whether you were, you know, Bill Clinton or whether you were George H.W. Bush and whether you were Nixon or whether you were Ford or whether you were George H.W. Bush and whether you were Nixon or whether you were Ford or whether you were whatever you were, whatever political party, we stood against the foreign aggression of Russia. And now we have the Republican Party. And I think it could be generalized like that because it mostly is coming from Republican Party and others, but at a political leadership level, they're infatuated with Putin.

They embrace it. You know, on the one hand, when you see Ted Cruz, how easily he could be manipulated by Tucker Carlson, you then think to yourself, these obsequious fools, imagine what someone with real talent like a Putin can do. Is it is it is it more complicated than what I just explained? Or at the end of the day, are these people just puppets who could be easily manipulated like we saw on TV, who Putin has figured out a way to capture? Well, I mean, part of it is that, you know, we obviously saw the strength of Russia's interference and attacks, and it became highlighted after Trump came into office and during the 2016 election. But going back to Gorbachev and Soviet days, I mean, the KGB, they were masters of disinformation.

That was their number one tool. And whereas before it was localized and they, you know, saw it as a win of placing a disinformation article in a U.S. media outlet, which probably a handful existed. Now with social media, they have, you know, have the ability to amplify to millions of people in minutes. And the problem is they have been chipping away. They seek divisions in the country, and they see a small division, and they will go to work and amplify it. This was done in Ukraine. Ukraine was the testing ground. In 2003, 2004,

Ukrainians suddenly were fighting amongst each other. No one could understand what the hell is going on. And then they realized that this was a Russian disinformation and division campaign being directed at them to separate them, because what is the best way to take a country down by dividing people? And this is basically what has happened over and it was happening slowly, increased recently with Trump because he, you know, hijacked the White House and now gave like cover to all these people who had all these anti-democratic, anti-American sentiments and ideas. Since about 2012, and this will be coming up in our next podcast, since about 2012,

right, Olga, they've penetrated, the Russians penetrated through different groups, because this is what they do. They don't actually take on everyone. Okay. Through disinformation, they get to, let's say the normal people, people who see they're on social media and that kind of thing. But what they actually end up doing is that they try to capture people in top positions, people that they can manipulate, people who can act on their behalf and they're either bought, there's something up with them, okay, that Russia can leverage. All right. And this is, so just remember, it's not really, let's say they're capturing the whole population. They go to specific people and that's how it's been done. In the United States, for example, there's the NRA, the evangelicals, far rights, libertarian, alt-right. Okay.

And a lot of them in the conservative movement, they penetrated there as well as the far left. Okay. As well. So these are different, you know, it's a, it's a way that they use what, how they penetrate a country and just something to remember. And to add to what Monique said it actually went back further they um saw the first opportunity in 2008 when uh obama was elected they saw the division they saw you know his image being burned by like a handful of people and this is where they actually sent Russian figures to United States to start kind of, you know, like studying and infiltrating the parties who were anti Obama. So it started in

2008. And the whole Tea Party movement that came along with it was off the heels of that. And, you know, Republicans, starting then and slowly now, like all the moderate Republicans were pushed out from 2008 on out of the party. And then now you have these fringe lunatics who, you know, will work with Russia, will work with the devil, will work with anyone in order to keep power. It's obviously been decades and decades in the running, but the way America is right now, it almost from a layman's perspective, it doesn't feel like it's all that complicated to divide us. It seems like there are so many sparks already flying in the country and all it takes is one match to ignite that and cause the chaos that we're seeing now. Do you think that is kind of the area where Russia is taking advantage of the United States right now? It definitely is. But again, it's social

media. And I'll give you a very perfect example. In Staten Island, where I live in New York, there were protests, anti-vaccine mandate protests last last month and and you know they were screaming probably 800 people screaming that they're going to burn down schools and burn down town halls and everything i mean lunatics um so these protests got amplified over social media the island is 500 000 people so you had the voices of 800 lunatics being amplified across all social media with agitators from from outside of staten island because then it came out that proud boys came into uh this you know protest and it seemed if you look at saturn island mo text me she's like olga what the hell is going on on your island she's like what what is going on i'm like mo it's 800 or 700 people out of an island of half a million but because of the social media amplification and of course you have russia

who for instance will see something like that and it costs them nothing to have their, you know, bots and trolls working at a while. The trolls working at a ruble a day to push out something where it's viewed by millions. And then it's being viewed worldwide. Meanwhile, in reality, it's not the full picture of what's happening. And that's the same thing. The fringe networks and groups are getting so much, you know, attention. If you look at America, that you would think the whole country's collapsing, whereas the majority of Americans do not want to overtake the government, do not believe in an autocracy, but they're being amplified.

And again, that's foreign powers who are helping the amplification and helping the division by posing as, you know, people with very bad spelling, you know, saying they are there, an American in Alabama. Yeah, no, it's a very powerful tool. OK, social media, because it does amplify, as Olga was saying, very small fringe movements. They get all of this attention, whereas people like us trying to do something, right, that is positive for democracy, pushing out the message that we need to support every single democratic institution that there is out there, we don't get amplified, right? We don't do

it. We don't play those dirty tricks. That's what they do. I can give you an example here in Italy. We had a little over the weekend, there were like 10 people flying around with fascist flags. Okay. And they got, I don't know how many, and then the bots come in. So they're retweeting all this stuff. So it makes Italy look like a complete fascist state, which it's not most people. Okay. I would say maybe half, okay. Or center left. The other ones are center, right. But that small little fringe movement becomes something that's important when it's not important. You know, we need to learn how to get our messages out. Okay. To a larger audience. That's something that no, I know you guys are trying to do we're

trying to do there's a lot of people on board that are trying to do this kind of thing and how do you how do you break through you know as as they say you know what what is it a lie can make its way around the world before the truth even gets its shoes on or something to that effect well it's negative right yeah well yeah i, and it doesn't even like go to, you know, versus us versus, you know, the French group. You had Hannity. He's a perfect example. He made a very outrageous statement that dead people voted so many. No, not dead people. I apologize that a dead person voted. They had proof. And this poor woman who uses her husband's name, his message, initial message was seen by millions of people. But this poor woman comes out and

she's like, Hello, I'm alive. I'm the one who voted. And I just happened to use my husband's name because I'm old fashioned. So he had to issue a correction, the correction probably saw 5% of what the initial part of her being dead and voting. So, so I mean, it's, you know, let's remember that when a disinformation, when a piece of disinformation gets out there, it has to be corrected within two hours. Otherwise, it's going to stick. That's why we need to have people who actually pay attention to these things. It's extremely important. Angry statements get clicks. That's what get the clicks. The algorithms are all we know, because right, Frances Hogan talked about this when she in her

testimony in front of Congress, where she talked about how the algorithm gained the whole thing. At Facebook. So this is at Facebook. This was before Christmas this happened. Or actually before that, in September, sorry. And we know that angry clicks, no, they get. Okay, it's gained so that's amplified much more. One thing that we can stop doing is clicking, retweeting, for example, angry tweets or things that are disinformation. Take a screenshot, don't actually retweet the actual tweet because that gets them traction. Instead, having a screenshot, it stops it right there.

So it's important that we also need to learn internet literacy and how to work the platform properly so that we're informing, but we're not amplifying angry tweets. At the same time, we need to put pressure on our government, on our congresspeople, because they have the tools. They don't need to even do anything except have a meeting and use the tools in place to put pressure on social media companies

to actually implement them. So, I mean, they don't even have to revise anything or do anything, the tools are in place. They just have not put enough pressure on the social media companies to, you know, cut the shit out with all this disinformation and, you know, and everything that is costing American lives. I mean, I legitimately think, you know, Facebook decided tomorrow that we're going to take an aggressive stance against anti-vax lies that they could basically turn around the

pandemic with the click of a button because they know what is being funneled. They know where they are directing their users towards. And the problem is, is that, and you guys were talking about this with Hannity, is that it's not only the fringes of social media that are spreading this disinformation, but it's the largest cable news network in the world, perhaps. And I mean, what do you make of it when you have somebody like Tucker Carlson going out there and saying things, talking about the Russia-Ukraine situation and saying, why do we care? I guess I'm into democracy, is what Tucker Carlson said. I mean, it seems indistinguishable from the stuff that the Russian propaganda network RT is spewing. I mean, I personally have been calling him a Kremlin shill for years. And it's

more than even that. I can tell you the point that I actually saw that he really is a Kremlin shill. And that was when Trump, by accident, because he's just an idiot and wanted to have his obama bin laden moment uh hey claude uh killed uh salamani and you know and at that point he was all excited and he's like yes i took out this iranian blah, blah, blah. Russia was not happy. I mean, Russia even gave him cover at that moment, you know, saying that, oh, someone must have fed Trump this information. And, you know, and he just didn't know better. Putin, as a matter of fact, within 48 hours, because of how furious he was, flew to Syria. And you had the whole Republican Party behind Trump puppeting, repeating Trump's points. Tucker Carlson, he was with Putin, Mike Lee with Putin. So you ran Paul with Putin. So

you had a handful of Republican senators who were just as furious at Trump as Putin was, whereas the rest were just lining right up behind Trump. And I was like, there you go. Now that is a Kremlin show. Exactly. Yeah. Who just happened to show himself. And since then, I mean, he's gotten no better. And as far as Fox News, I mean, it is horrible what is happening and whatever but at a minimum why are they being viewed by our military and our government agencies at least shut them down put freaking I don't know and PR anything cartoons anything yeah not but not Fox News I understand maybe they don't want to put CNN versus Fox. Put anything. Put PBS. It should not be, you know, in reach of our military 24 hours watching it. And then they're

repeating this disinformation. I mean, this is the United States military. And we already see with insurrection the effects of what disinformation can do with the former military members being involved in the insurrection. Yeah. Let's remember that what Olga is saying is that those narratives, a lot of what Russia pumps out in social, okay, in social media, and what, you know, the line, the kind of messaging that they want to get out there is pumped through. Okay. And that, I mean, you can, that's what I spend a lot of my time. I'm sitting there reading different people here, of course, because I'm much more centered here in Europe,

but they're just parroting. Okay. And this is what Tucker Carlson. So a lot of times, if, you know, we can ask people when you're listening, don't take it, this is the actual line, understand that if it comes from these people, nine out of 10, it's come from Russia. Okay. And it's being funneled through. All right. Yeah. So maybe even more 9.7, or something like that. They don't have an original thought. Okay. So this is actually very, very important for people to understand, especially when it's coming from here. And as Olga was saying, through the military, I mean, come on. Okay. This is, this is just absolutely incredible. Are we really surprised? You know? Yeah. And I think you could draw direct lines between that sort of, I mean, I guess you could call it brainwashing in a way to what we saw on January 6th and to kind of all the violence we've seen throughout the country as of late and all the discord that we've seen throughout the country as of late.

I know the Biden administration this week is going to be speaking with Russia about Russian aggression on the border of Ukraine. What do you think the administration needs to say? What do you think has to be done right now by this administration to curb Russian aggression? Olga, you want to take that one? I personally would tell Putin to F off. I know. So it's got to be like succession. We should send in Logan Roy from succession to just say, fuck off.

I mean, I don't even understand why we're having why we're even in talks i'll go what what's our new line russia if you're listening fuck are we allowed to okay you could say whatever that's our new line the whole thing is absurd. You have a mafia thug who, again, is getting attention on the world stage, being equ he wakes up and says, Oh, let me feed the US and Europe and say that I think NATO is going to attack Russia. And I mean, I've been documenting it on Twitter, over the past few months, probably every other day, there's a headline that NATO is about to bomb Russia with nuclear weapons. And I mean, the insanity that they are feeding the Russian people. I mean, they've been doing it since the Soviet days. But now with social media, you would think they would know better because Russian people can, you know, click on and see that there's absolutely zero

missiles headed. So I mean, I personally think the whole thing, that's not how you deal with Russia. Every time you sit down with Putin, he sees it as a sign of weakness and he only escalates the situation. And he handed a list of absolutely. I mean, he probably laughed as he was writing the list of his demands. He was probably like drinking champagne and like, yeah. Oh, yeah. Let's get all the American troops out of Europe. Yes. Perfect. Uh huh. And let's do this and let's do I mean, get out of here. You know,

he just needs to go. And my whole point for years, and I'm honestly so tired of talking about Putin, but my point for years, he should be treated like Kim jong-un i mean that freak sits in north korea you hear about it once i don't know every five months when he throws off a missile and other than that that's it you don't hear about them you don't nothing they're not in any western organization they're not flooding money through every single country and buying politicians they're just shunned in the corner and this this is what needs to be done with Russia. Yeah, I agree with Olga. Actually, we should be sitting down. I've been reading a lot on different ideas and things like that. Olga wrote up a fantastic list of recommendations. Please, everybody, go onto her feed, on Twitter feed, because it's really, really,

they're all fantastic recommendations. But most people are saying we shouldn't actually, we should be the ones demanding. Okay, let's remember that it's Russia who has been aggressive since 2004, overtly, okay, from in Europe, and then all right, also into the United States after 2016, the elections in 2000, well, actually from 2014, 15 and 16. So, I mean, it's got to flip around. Okay. It's not there.

All right. It should not be what they're demanding. It should be what we're demanding. Take your stuff, take your kit, take your shit, move out of there. Get out of Georgia, get out of Crimea, get out of Donbass. That's what they should be sitting down and saying. And then you back it up. And get out of the United States.

Sanctions. And get out of the States. Get out of wherever the fuck you are. Then two, okay, sanctions. Hit them hard. Hit the oligarchs. Hit the Kremlin-garks, okay? Because these guys don't function if they don't have their bank accounts in the West.

Let's remember, that's where they have their money. They haven't got it in Russia. They've got it in our countries. So we do have leverage in that. And then send help to NATO and also to Ukraine to, let's say, arm up. OK, you don't have to send soldiers. That's not what we're saying. But these things have to be fortified much more,

because that's the situation that's going on now. And it's a serious situation right out there. It's not something to take lightly. And we should be listening to the Baltic states, to Ukraine. What are they telling us to do? And we follow their lead. Yeah, personally, you have a lot of nato countries on the border if i was us i would be like really put in you're so worried about you know our our like in like you know a movement onto russian borders okay i would freaking drop 18 000 paratroopers into poland and other nato countries and be like, are you worried now? Because I mean, honestly, that's how you deal with them.

And they have more bark than bite if they were dressed correctly. Trust me, I am Russian and Ukrainian. I have the best of both worlds. I know the mentality. And I mean, this is how you have to deal with them. You have to push back hard. You know, don't allow these ridiculous demands. And that's it. And when they see strength, that's when they with Trump. Trump came in in 2017. I mean, he was a dangerous lunatic to begin with. By 2021, he almost overthrew our government. Why? Because there were absolutely zero consequences for every single breaking story. And God knows we were hearing them every hour for the past five years. Zero consequences for all the breaking stories, all the corruption, all the meetings, the phone calls with Putin, the disclosing of intelligence, everything.

And what happened? He just got more and more emboldened to the point that he literally committed a terrorist attack on our Capitol. I want to take a quick step back. And while we were talking about Fox News, I was just so curious to get your point of view on this, like Tucker Hannity, Laura Ingraham, Murdoch himself. Is it all coming from the same place? And what I mean by that, like, is there coverage on Russia, their pro-Russia attitudes? Is that from a place of blackmail? Is it coming from a place of blackmail? Is it coming from a place of

monetary gains? Is it coming from a place of, no, I just hate my country? Where is their pro-Russia mentality sort of coming from? And it could be different places for each person. Monetary gain for me, I personally think. I just think they see that hate sells and they capitalize off it. That reminds me of something we were talking about on our show a few weeks back when we said, it's like all these people in the far right are grifting us into fascism. They're all along for the ride to line their pockets with no care or concern with how it actually affects lives and how damaging it is to our democracy. And I think that is what is so dangerous. Mo and Olga, or Mulga, as you have begun to be known by beloved fans of the Kremlin File podcast.

I want to thank you for being such an important part of the Midas Media Network and for doing this podcast, Kremlin File. Thank you. Because you guys are, we've said this earlier in the show, but I think we should say to you too, you're much more intelligent than all the three of us combined. And we are so grateful and we're so grateful

that you've lent your expertise to this network and that you're doing the work that needs to be done to save our democracy and to keep away the threat of autocracy every single day, not just here and around the globe. So I hope everybody out there watching, listening, goes right now, make sure you're subscribed

to Kremlin File to hear Olga and Mo's perspective, the Molga perspective on everything that's going on across the world with Russia and with Ukraine. It's so important, and it's important that you don't hear these in just quick sound bites, but that you actually hear the analysis from the researchers who know this best. And if you also wanna support the Kremlin File podcast, you could do that not only

by following and subscribing, but you could visit their Patreon, which is patreon.com slash Kremlin File to support their work. Olga Mo, thank you so much for being on the Midas Touch podcast and thank you for everything you do. Thank you. Thank you guys. Thank you. Such a great interview. I mean, we are so fortunate at the Midas Media Network to have such knowledgeable, unbelievable people giving this insight. Like this just doesn't exist in other media networks. I mean, to have Monique and Olga's viewpoint, their research, it's unbelievable. And then not only Kremlin file, but then the influence continuum that we just added to the network with Dr. Hassan.

I think Midas University, I think that's taking on a whole new, a whole new meaning now that we have these PhD level experts giving dissertations every week to the Midas mighty. So, I mean, I learned so much from these podcasts every week. I mean, I learn so much from these podcasts every week. I mean, they really are. It really is like going to graduate school for free. And we're learning so much and we're learning stuff as it happens, new research, things that are going on right now on the ground from the preeminent experts in the field. It's just so invaluable. And I'm so grateful. Like I said, I'm so humbled to be working with these experts who are far more intelligent than me. And I acknowledge that. That's the biggest thing I've

built my entire life trying to find people smarter than me to surround myself with. That's why I love doing the podcast with you guys, because you guys just bring your a game every day, every single podcast when we drop these and just learning from you two is amazing. And you do got to feel what it was like being in my shoes, you know, listening to Dr. Hassan and Mo and Olga today. So I hope you guys were happy. Very happy. And look, not just promoting the Midas Media Network podcast, but I think it's helpful that we pause and reflect and give a shout out to some other podcasts that we like as

well. One of them that I really enjoy, and I know Brett Jordy, it's among your favorite podcasts, is a podcast by a group called Swing Left. Their know, Brett Jordy, it's among your favorite podcasts, is a podcast by a group called Swing Left, their podcast, How We Win. Swing Left is a grassroots organization that gives you effective ways to make a difference in the election that matters the most. And every week, Swing Left's podcast, How We Win, tells the stories of the people fighting to protect our democracy and defeat the GOP by electing Democrats to key state and federal offices. You already know the news. Now,

what can you do about it? How We Win, it's inspiring, insightful, and will give you hope featuring fascinating interviews with experts, activists, and ordinary Americans. Each episode gives you the information you need to take action and join the fight. Swing Left's How We Win is hosted by campaign organizing veterans Steve Pearson and Mariah Craven, and every week they bring their own insight, humor, and hope to the most important issues facing our country today. Previous guests include Speaker Nancy Pelosi, Stacey Abrams, Michael Moore, Representative Adam Schiff, Dan Pfeiffer, Billy Eichner, Senator Chris Murphy, Dolores Huerta, Doreen McKesson,

Representative Karen Bass, Catherine Hahn, and many others. How We Win chronicled the tumultuous journey to defeating Donald Trump and win the majority in the Senate. Now Steve and Mariah are going even deeper to keep you in the fight and build on our victories in 2022 and beyond. We don't agonize. We organize. Subscribe to Swing Left's podcast, How We Win. Want to thank everyone out there from the Midas Mighty. These podcasts, the lives are growing. The community is growing. It is 2022. We need to get in the fight. Brett, last words before turning it over to Jordy.

Last words, do not drink urine to cure COVID. Please get vaccinated and please get your booster. Shout out to the Midas Night Aids.