The MeidasTouch Podcast - Deprogramming the MAGA Cult with Diane Benscoter

Episode Date: October 23, 2020

MeidasTouch co-founder and civil rights attorney Ben Meiselas interviews Diane Benscoter an expert in cult behavior and in deprogramming members of a cult. Benscoter discusses how MAGA exhibits the classic traits of cult behavior and how to best engage with MAGA supporters to help them exit the MAGA cult with dignity. --- Send in a voice message: https://anchor.fm/meidastouch/message Support this podcast: https://anchor.fm/meidastouch/support Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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My pleasure. Thanks for having me. And so, Diane, I want to discuss your background, particularly in the research and studies you've done in cult behavior, in breaking through that behavior through deprogramming and what that all means. But to get there, I think it's helpful that we start with kind of your background and how you got into this field. So can you tell us, you actually had personal experience that led you to pursue this career path? Yeah, I joined a religious cult, it's commonly known, the Moonies, back in the 70s. And I was a member for five years.

My family had me deprogrammed. I hesitate to use that word because people have these ideas of what it is. But after I got out, I ended up writing a memoir about my life in the cult. And as a deprogrammer. I started going out on cases after I got out and helping families who had loved ones in various cults. And I was pretty young at the time and didn't really have a deep understanding of how it all worked. But since then, I've spent most of my life trying to understand what it really is. Why do people join these groups?

What do they get out of it? Why do they stay? And how do they leave and put their lives back together? And since then, I've started a nonprofit organization to help people navigate and find the help they need if they want out or if they have a family member who's part of a group. And also to do prevention work. And so getting into those different elements of where you've studied, how they get into it, what they see in it, ultimately how you get out. Let's start with the first, which is, what have you seen in terms of what attracts people to cults in the first place? And why do they get involved with it? This is a really important point. It's important to understand that you don't join a cult for the

doctrine. And you join for psychological reasons. People get in because of a psychological need they have, for instance, to be part of something bigger than themselves, or to feel like they're going to solve some injustice they see in the world. Oftentimes, people feel that there's something unjust in society, and they get drawn in with a soundbite or something that resonates with them. And then once they dig a little bit deeper, they find this community and this energy that you get pulled into that makes you feel like you're really doing something with your life that matters and you're part of something bigger than yourself. So it's for psychological reasons that people join these groups. It's not that scholarly reasons. They didn't most of the time or almost all the time. It's not that there's some political platform that makes tons of sense or some doctrine that makes tons of sense. It's for an emotional need, a psychological need. And often what I've

observed, not being a scholar in this area, but that there is a charismatic personality, usually one, although sometimes personalities, who are perceived as having, you know, these powers or being infallible? I think if you start with the charismatic leader, one attribute that I find common is kind of an addictive personality that, and they often lose their humanity. What happens is, like if you think of addiction, like if you're addicted to heroin, there's the standard that they'll take money from their grandmother. Once you're addicted to power and or money, it's this insatiable need for more and more. And so if you are using psychological manipulation, tactics of psychological manipulation, you can feed your need for power. And it's very addictive, I think, for certain personality types. And if they have sort of a charismatic nature, they realize they can use that.

And they use what tools are available to them to feed their addiction. That's how I look at it. And so in many ways, there's this psychological emptiness or lacking that's ultimately filled by the cult. But then as personified by the leader, someone who may feel that they're empty without the cult, then finds in the leader a way almost that they're vicariously living through an individual who transcends the powers, limitations that they see. And so in this person's infallibility, someone fills their psychological void. What happens is, I would put it just a little bit different. I would say that if you start feeling, if you're the person who has stumbled upon this group,

and suddenly you feel this exhilaration, it's a real exciting, intoxicating feeling to feel like you're part of something bigger than yourself. And one of the key tactics that cult leaders will use is divisiveness. You have to have an enemy. You have to have a them. Because if you want to control people's decision-making processes and you want them to be dedicated to you, you have to get them to think of everything outside of your realm as bad, evil, fake. You can't, if people inside the group start having a relationship with intellectual material, or they start thinking they can read the New York Times, for instance, and consider what's right and wrong, or really use critical thinking and rational thinking,

they won't stay dedicated. So you have to create an other. You have to say, it's fake news, don't trust anyone but me. That's one of the main tactics that cult leaders use. And once you buy into that lie, into that, then you get fed by the people inside the group. And you're all repeating just these little phrases almost like sound bites to each other that make you feel like you're part of this and that you're right and you're righteous and you're going to fight injustice and together you're going to change the world. And it's extremely exhilarating. And so you stay because of that exhilaration, because of that feeling that you're right and they're wrong. It's really powerful to have an enemy, to feel like they're the bad guys, they're evil, we're right. And so that's why people stay is for that feeling of that intoxicating feeling of being righteous. And sometimes that intoxication will even lead to members of a cult risking their lives or affirmatively killing themselves.

And you've seen that. I mean, how does it get that extreme, Diane? Eventually, what you do if you're trying to, again, control a group of people, and you've created this us and them mentality, then you begin the dehumanization part, where they aren't even really human. You're so superior in your righteousness and your truth and your passion for changing the world that it's okay if people die. It's okay if you die for this because it's so important. You're going to be thought of as a hero for generations to come. You know, so I'm with a group called Midas Touch. Obviously, my politics lean progressive. I'm a Democrat, but I've always felt or thought at least if

a leader in a political party does something wrong or horrible or defies science or does things that are objectively despicable, I would not support the individual. I don't care what political party they are from. That doesn't matter. I care about compassion and decency and helping people. What's been very difficult for me observing is in the rise of MAGA, which has become the name synonymous with the followers of Donald Trump. And it's exhibited behaviors that have confused me and confounded me. And we've heard the terms, you know, they're a cult or they're acting like a cult,

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And again, it's the characteristics of psychological manipulation that I point to, that I like to point to. And so within the membership, one of the things that is a trademark of someone who has been psychologically manipulated is that it's almost impossible to deal with them in a logical, rational, critical way. You can't have a critical debate and have differences that you're both trying to understand how to learn from each other. That's not really possible with someone who is under psychological manipulation. And and who are caught up in the emotion of it all. And also what happens is that a lot of times once you get caught up in something like this, you break your ties with family members and loved ones, and you dig your feet in because you feel

so righteous about this, and you think they should come along with you, and they don't. And so once you've gone public with the kind of an extreme belief system, an extreme platform, or these soundbites, then it's your pride is involved, and it's really hard to step back from that because you know it's humiliating to think that you've fallen for something. And so if you argue with someone who is under this mindset, they just become more righteous and more defensive, and you become the other even more. And so when you think about, people think about deprogramming as this, you put someone in a room and hold them there until they change their belief system. But that's not what it is. During my deprogramming, when my

family brought some people in to talk to me about being in this cult, the thing that cracked it for me was understanding how psychological manipulation worked. And when they started pointing out the characteristics, I started seeing myself in that and my whole world shattered. And I think that's what you have to understand when you're talking to someone who has bought into this kind of circular logic, is that rational thinking and arguing doctrine, that's not going to help. What you need to do is break down that us versus them. You need to find a way to have them see you not as the other, not as the enemy. You have to be able to connect with them as a human being

and remind them about the things they really care about. And that's the way in because it's not sustainable. The doctrine, the Trump platform, as I see it, doesn't hold a lot of water. There isn't much of a platform there even to grasp onto. It's these soundbites. It's this righteousness. It's this, you know, QAnon, for instance, these people are eating babies, they good. And so if you want to break that down and actually break down those barriers between the us and them, you have to remember these are good people who bought into a lie. They bought into this feeling of community and this feeling of righteousness. And with the way media has become, when you have something like Fox News, which admits in court documents that they're actually not news, trillion dollar echo chambers that are created where individuals who have bought into this magna logic find people who they believe to be smart, authentic people who are delivering the news. And that helps spread the circular logic. I mean, and,

and that's something that probably even makes it more difficult in many ways than in past decades where that just didn't exist. We think that the media and the openness has given more access to information and in many ways it has, but it's also allowed the manipulation and creating the silos of information. That's right. I really think that's true. And the internet as well,

not just Fox news, that's one vehicle, but also you can go down rabbit holes so easily with the internet. You see one thing and you click three clicks later and you're, you're having interactions with people who are all riled up about something that you resonated with. And now you're getting riled up about it. And pretty soon you feel like I found my people. And there you go. I'll give you two extreme examples. So on one hand, QAnon today says that John F. Kennedy was never actually killed and that today he's going to announce that he's been hiding for multiple decades and. We know that's not going to happen today. So someone who espouses something so absurd and ridiculous like that,

when that doesn't happen, how does the cult member now, having been told that, how do they go about, and why don't they break right then and there when that doesn't come true? That always kind of puzzles me. Yeah. There are cracks that get through to certain people at certain times. And maybe that when something is predicted and it doesn't happen, that could be one crack, but not always. There were a lot of things that happened during Jim Jones' reign when he had all his followers that should have dissuaded people, but did not, and they still took their lives and

the lives of their children in Guyana. And with these kind of things, it does make a dent, but what's more important? What's really important once you've committed and you've come out publicly and you've broken ties with your family and you've felt this intoxication of feeling righteous, you really don't want to let that go. So if someone will throw you any kind of a justification, someone in the group, that, oh, well, whoever said that, they weren't really part of this, or some justification, then you can go on believing what you want to believe and what makes you feel better about yourself. And then the other example being COVID. We know that it's lethal. We know that over 220,000 Americans are dead. We know that that deaths that had we just done very basic safety measures. But you still have the MAGA group's view is we shouldn't wear masks.

It's a hoax. Is that part of the cult behavior the problem with what you're saying is that you're being rational you're thinking critically and being rational and not under and thinking why can't they see But it's not rational thought that is keeping them there. It is that their buddies want to still feel this thing they're feeling. All of them want to continue to feel like they're the heroes of the world. And so anyone that gives them any rationalization for this, like, well, it's China. We really are doing better than, it's the fake news. any rationalization for this, like, well, it's China. We really are doing better than, it's the fake news.

They're telling us this, but it's really not as bad as you think. And if I'm under that and I'm feeling powerful in my group and we're going to save the world, I want to believe any rationalization I can find that will keep me feeling this high I have. I think one of the hardest parts, but you hit the nail on the head a few minutes back was a lot of people have told me that, you know, really losing a family member to MAGA or feeling like someone you love is embracing that mentality and what happened? What can I do? I thought that one of the problems that I've seen online is that there's certainly wagging your finger at somebody and saying, you know, are you crazy? What do you do? That that's probably not an effective strategy. And one of the things, you know, that I wanted to talk to you about, especially when I saw your TED talk, and as we

approach the election, but even after the election, in terms of healing as families, as a country, what can we be doing now if we have family members, if we have friends, if we want to reach out to them because we care, should we be doing nothing? What kind of help could we be offering and how do we do it? What kind of tone and what's the right way to deprogram without saying, I'm going to deprogram you right now? Yeah. Most of the people who contact my nonprofit are family members of people who are in some sort of an extreme mentality. And it's really heartbreaking because I want so much to be able to give them a silver bullet and to be able to say to them, say this to them.

But there is not one of those. And it's really frustrating for a loved one because you want to go grab your loved one and shake them and tell them, don't you realize how stupid you're being? You know, that's what your instinct is. But it doesn't work. And so I have to explain to family members that what your goal has to be is to help them get out of this with their dignity. And so the more you tell them they're stupid or argue doctrine with them, the more they're going to dig in and the harder it's going to be for them to get out with their dignity. And so what helps is to stay in touch with them,

remind them that you know they're a good person and that you know that they really want to do good in the world. You know, watch for the crack. And when there's a crack, help them understand that it wasn't their fault, that lead them to some formers. Formers are the best to use to their story. The stories of formers are extremely powerful because they have credibility to somebody who's in the group. Because here's somebody who understands. They know the language. They know the sound bites. And they got out.

And look at them. They seem to be okay. And so pointing them to formers, having them talk to a counselor, if you can get them to talk to a counselor, especially someone who has an understanding of this particular psychological situation. But you have to help them ease out and you have to really be cognizant of helping them keep their dignity, because it's really humiliating to admit that you fell for it, especially when you start looking at what you really fell for, and you start realizing, like, I believe that Sun Yung Moon was the second coming of Christ,

and that I was a disciple, and that generations before and generations after would think of me as this disciple of Christ. And all the things I did and all the years I spent fundraising, selling flowers and candy and sending it off to headquarters and praying to this person, you know, it was really humiliating to admit the whole thing was a lie. And it was all a fabrication for them to make money or to feed the addiction to power. And so it's like my quest to help people get out of these things with their pride and to realize that you got into it because you're a good person. You got into it because you wanted to be part of something bigger than yourself.

And now it's, you know, when you do start seeing what happened, let's get you some support to put your life back together and to heal from what happened. But the whole us versus them, the other, that is our challenge, I think, as a country,

is to learn to talk again to those people. It's even, I have such a hard time driving down the street. It infuriates me, even with all this knowledge of how it works, when I see these big Trump signs, and I know what's going on with our democracy and that we could lose our democracy. And yet I do understand that people get caught up in this and it's very intoxicating.

And when you say formers, those are former members of a group or former members of a cult. And they're the best exemplars to point current members to as examples of people who have left with dignity and who have been able to pursue active, fulfilling lifestyles and have got out without the humiliation that they feared. What's that last part? That got out without the humiliation that they feared and managed to get out of the situation. So important. So important.

That's why I started a YouTube channel at one point and I went around and interviewed former members of extremist groups of all kinds, former Al-Qaeda members, former skinheads, former white supremacists, former cult members of all kinds, because the stories are all the same.

Why did you get in? What was it like to be in? What caused you to leave? What's it been like putting your life back together? The stories are all the same as from a psychological perspective. And so it can sometimes help to see that mirrored from other groups, but it's especially helpful when you're going through that point where you're considering getting out to have someone from the very same group. So somebody that fell really deeply into QAnon or MAGA or NXIVM or whatever it is, to have someone who is a former member of the particular doctrine is really helpful, extremely helpful. And then, you know, I think there are two cross currents we've seen in this election as my dogs, my Maltese and my poodle in the background, Taquito and Chiquito Bark. We've seen powerful Republican groups who have called out Trump. And while

they're not necessarily formers in the sense that they were, you know, deeply embedded in MAGA, I think they've showed and led a path of here is another way that we could be Republicans with dignity. And what we've done also in Midas Touch, which was one of our goals, was to literally use Trump's words and put them in videos that actually showed what was going on in the country. And so when he would and gear it towards that juxtaposition of here's what he says, here's what it is. And we wouldn't even use narration for a lot of our video. We would just have his words be the words compared to the reality. And that's kind of been our strategy to spread that.

We've got anecdotal feedback that that's been effective. And we've actually heard that family members have been sharing our videos with family members who are embedded in the groups. And they said, that actually worked on my cousin or that worked on my mother, which is good. But it's presenting them with the data in a non-threatening way and being compassionate and not letting them know that, you know, that they should be humiliated, to let them know that there's a safe space and there's a way out. There's a way out. And I think you're right. That's exactly right. A lot of, I think that's been really, really effective to have some of the, as you said, the Republicans stand up and say,

this is not what the Republican Party is about. It's okay to have differences in platform, but when you start using these tactics that are really harmful to people and using these tactics that only, their only purpose is to feed your addiction to power. They have nothing to do with values. They have nothing to do with principles. They have nothing to do with the platform of the Republican Party. They have to do with feeding an addiction to power. And so when those tactics are being used, like supporting these extreme beliefs and trying to get people militarized against the other, those are tactics that clearly have gone far beyond what most people in the Republican Party are comfortable with. So I think pointing this out, separating the difference between political platforms, belief systems, and tactics of manipulation is a really important thing to do. You know, we had Olivia Troy on who worked with Vice President Pence,

who's since left and was very critical of him. And we asked her, Miles Taylor, who was with the Department of Homeland Security, said that President Trump was crowdsourcing domestic terrorism. And we asked Olivia Troy if she agreed that President Trump was crowdsourcing domestic terrorism. And she said, absolutely, that he was out there acting as the spokesperson for terrorists right now. And that's why I think that it's incumbent on us, though, to not give up. There's lots of people who say, they're MAGA, I can't ever get through to them. I'm done. I give up. I think that we're all being called upon in this moment to respond and to let people know that that's what's going on, that the president is acting as a terrorist right now. And, but we

have to do it in the right way. And we can't be, again, finger pointing, and which is why it was so important that I wanted to talk to you and have you on to speak to the followers of Midas Touch and others, you know, and the millions who watch our videos to say, here is, you can do something, but you have to, you have to be careful. You can't, you can't make these people feel humiliated, but there is hope. It won't help. And one of the things that's the most frightening to me, when you study psychological manipulation or these tactics is that the final stage is dehumanization of the other. And that's how Hitler justified and why people walked into, led people into gas chambers.

Hitler youth were completely under the manipulation of Hitler. And they really believed in white supremacy. They really believed that they had to protect their kind. And when you dehumanize the other, and when the people at the border start becoming less than human, and they're not even really children, if they were white children, we'd feel differently. Or when Black Lives Matter people become the enemy.

Especially using race and creating that as part of the other is extremely scary to me. I see the parallel between what Hitler was able to accomplish and what's going on in this country as very similar, the hatred and the dehumanization. And when I see it having gone to the point where people feel like it would be okay to take the lives of the other because it's our righteous duty to do so, that's when it becomes really scary. And that's when these tactics have gone to a point where it's really important that we stop this. It's really important. And we're all being called on right now to stop this. We're all being called on to

do our part as much as we can to oppose it and to reach out to everybody now and to make sure that, you know, we can utilize the tactics that you've discussed that work, which are, you know, and so there is still hope though, right, Diane? There is. I have to believe that. And I do. I do. I do.

I think the people that have bought very deeply into it that are making lots of noise are less of a large number than we think. Well, thank you so much. Tell us about your nonprofit and if people want to be involved or want to contribute, what's the best way they can do that? It's antidote.ngo is the website. And what I'm doing is putting together a huge database, anyone and everyone that has expertise in this as a resource to people who need support, either family members or people that want out of any kind of extreme mentality, that we can navigate them to the people that they need help from. And also, the other side is to do prevention work, much like what you're doing. We haven't really kicked that part off completely yet, but we're really, really ramping up the support services part. And so if people need help, they need to talk to someone about a loved one or themselves,

we'll do our very best to get you the resources you need. Well, I appreciate your time, Diane Ben-Skoder. You've been a great guest. I'd love to be helpful too after the election. Maybe we can work together and figure out how our videos can be mutually helpful. And we thank you for your time today. Thank you for all you do. Really, I so appreciate it.