The MeidasTouch Podcast - Former Republican Governor Asa Hutchinson Drops The Hammer on Trump (Interview)

Episode Date: January 28, 2024

MeidasTouch host Ben Meiselas interviews former Arkansas Governor Asa Hutchinson on the threat to democracy posed by Donald Trump, the current condition of the Republican Party, and how we can find areas of agreement to defeat MAGA. Remember to subscribe to ALL the MeidasTouch Network Podcasts: MeidasTouch: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/meidastouch-podcast Legal AF: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/legal-af The PoliticsGirl Podcast: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-politicsgirl-podcast The Influence Continuum: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-influence-continuum-with-dr-steven-hassan Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/mea-culpa-with-michael-cohen The Weekend Show: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/the-weekend-show Burn the Boats: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/burn-the-boats Majority 54: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/majority-54 Political Beatdown: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/political-beatdown Lights On with Jessica Denson: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/lights-on-with-jessica-denson On Democracy with FP Wellman: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/on-democracy-with-fpwellman Uncovered: https://www.meidastouch.com/tag/maga-uncovered Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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a future resources company. We'll be right back. to miss out visit betmgm.com for terms and conditions 19 plus to wager ontario only please gamble responsibly if you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you please contact connex ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge betmgm operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming ontario when people are not happy with MAGA because MAGA is taking over, MAGA is, you know, when they, you hear the fake news when they say, well, MAGA represents, MAGA represents 44% of the Republican, no, no, MAGA represents 95% of the Republican Party. Whenever you hear this stuff. I sell is here with the Midas touch network and we are joined by former Arkansas governor and former presidential candidate Asa Hutchinson governor. Welcome to the show.

Hey, it's good to be with you today. I'm looking forward to the conversation. So I wanted to start with that clip because all of the exit polling data actually shows the contrary of what he just said. But as someone who's a lifelong Republican where Trump's saying it's 95% MAGA right now, what's your response when you hear him say things like that? Well, you better fact check him because that's not the evidence that I have. Certainly, he has a loyal following, and there's different degrees of loyalty in his following. You've got some that will support him, as someone said, even if he's serving as president for Malcatraz. And then you've got another level of support for him that is, you know,

we're not going to support him if he becomes a convicted felon, or we wish there was a better alternative. So there's a lot of different levels of support, but he's absolutely wrong. The Republican party is not made up of his loyalists as he calls them MAGA. You know, I go back to Ronald Reagan whenever he first used that phrase. So there's a lot of people who support the principles of the Republican Party, but do not identify with the Trump Republicans. You know, Reagan talked about having more of an open tent, trying to invite more people into the party. And as we talk about the pro-democracy community here on the Midas Touch Network, I always want the pro-democracy community to be inclusive

and stand up against anyone who's attacking our democracy. But it seems with all of Donald Trump's speeches and behavior, if you're not fully obedient to him, not any type of principles, but to him, he doesn't want you. You're considered a rhino now. And he just posted on his social media platform where he does the name calling, the juvenile stuff. He calls Nikki Haley a bird brain. He made weird nicknames up

for you, but he says that if you make a contribution to bird brain, he says from this moment forth, you're going to be permanently barred. I guess first in your long political career, have you ever seen anything like it? And just overall, like, what's your response when you see someone who's ostensibly maybe a leader of a party that you've been a part of? Like, say that. Like, do you viscerally just go, what the heck is going on here? Well, it's unbelievable. The whole key to politics is adding, not subtracting. And he's making his campaign all about reducing. And so if he believes he is the presumptive nominee, then he has to unite the party behind him. And then when he comes out and threatens Nikki Haley and Nikki Haley supporters, whenever there's only been one

primary and one caucus thus far, he is minimizing his chance of winning down the road. And he's got to reach out and bring people in. And it's just beyond him to do that. And so it's really problematic for me, who's helped build the Republican Party in Arkansas and across this country that believes in the Ronald Reagan conservatism, to see him demolishing what is necessary, what I think is important for our country, which is to win in her? Do you think he's afraid to debate her? I mean, he obviously wouldn't debate you and others earlier on. Do you think that there is a deeper fear he has there? Oh, absolutely. And of course, he doesn't want to have any debate specifically with Ambassador Haley.

But more importantly, what he is genuinely afraid of is that he is not able to wrap up this nomination early. He knows the time is not on his side. The storm clouds are starting together. He knows that they're coming, some very difficult times with the court cases, with all of the independents not wanting to support him. And so as we get closer to it, he is going to be very concerned and fearful if he can't wrap it up early. That's why he's putting everything into it. He's angry because he can't wrap it up early. That's why he's putting everything into it. He's angry

because he can't do it at this point. Absolutely. He's afraid of having a longer campaign in which more is revealed about him and where he loses support as you get closer to the convention in July. Do you think he's capable of debating? And I know that may sound like an odd question, but in that past debate when he said to the Proud Boys, you know, stand back and stand by, that was a major thing. Right now, he's saying, Proud Boys, I love you. Pr what you call them. Sometimes I call them these kind of cosplay fascist events that he calls rallies because I don't know what to refer. When he takes that on a stage though, don't you think Americans are going to look at that and go, what in the, what, what, what, that really? Well, it's worked before, but there is a diminishing return on his craziness.

And so if you have a debate, he will debate on his terms, which is name calling, which is putting out signals to the radical right, which is obfuscating real issues. He won't engage on subsidy questions about the border or on Ukraine. It will be, I'll solve it in 24 hours. I could have negotiated the civil war. I'll make Mexico build a wall. He'll come up with some other ludicrous thing that sounds tough, but doesn't withstand scrutiny. So that's the kind of debate that you'll get. And once again, he will harden his support among his base, but he will not be able to expand it, and it will point up his weaknesses. And I believe he will have to debate at some point in the future. It will only happen with Ambassador Haley if she's able to win a contest,

if she shows strength and continues this fight. Then I think he will be in a different position to have to debate. I want to talk about some of the issues that you just brought up, the border, Ukraine, the economy, and people watching this may go, Ben and Governor Hutchinson can agree on these types of issues. How is that possible? My experiment may prove that's not the case, but I want to try to test the hypothesis here for a moment. And let's talk about the border, where I think we both agree that there are urgent and pressing issues that need to be addressed at the border, emergency issues that need to be addressed. And there are bipartisan discussions taking place in the Senate to try to reach agreements that may or may not be satisfactory. But let's just start with the premise there

that I am glad, and I would love to know your take, that the Senate is at least rolling up their sleeves, Democrats, Republicans coming together, trying to address the issue. Are we on the same page there? Oh, absolutely. And I think they're close to a deal and it's necessary. It'll be bipartisan. The question is, is whether they can take their eye off of the politics of it and get something

done substantively. But we are in agreement that they absolutely should be working on a solution. And when we talk about the politics of it, what that means is that, and correct me if I'm wrong, that Donald Trump thinks it is a winning issue for him to not have solutions at the border and to complain about how bad it is because that could help him in the election. Is that, when you say the politics of it, is that one of the kind of politics of it? Yeah, it's shaping up that way, which is of great concern. Now, I'll say that not just Donald Trump, but Democrats have played that game as well. Sometimes they prefer an issue versus a solution. And it's regrettable in today's politics. We got to get over that,

but that's worrisome when it comes to such a big, important issue for our country that everybody wants something done. People in Congress, the members, they need to think about the institution. People have lost confidence because you can't get things done. There's not a more important issue to address

than this bill that would give us border security, greater definition of our support for Ukraine and Israel. And if Congress, they should have stayed in place before Christmas to get it done, but they've got to get it done now to continue restoring the confidence that the American people want to have. And I'll concede that I think all political parties at some point in the past, being very broad here, have played politics with certain issues to the greater detriment.

But kind of focusing on this issue right now, what's happening in the Senate, I don't think, at least right now, this border bill from everything I've read and been reported is a both sides issue from the perspective of you have Democrats working with Republicans like Republican Senator Lankford and Mitt Romney and others, you know, in the Senate,

everyone from Schumer to Lankford are working together. When you got them working together, that's pretty good. I want to see, don't you want to see that governor? That's government working. Oh, absolutely. I do. And there's a incredible opportunity here when you have Democrat mayors of major cities throwing up their hands saying, we can't handle this, asking for the federal government for a better solution. Whenever you look at the President Biden in his State of the Union address, looked at the Republican members and challenged them, give us a border security bill. Well, it's all right to get that done. They, I think, can agree

upon the money and the resources. I think there was a struggle about reforming the asylum laws. And from President Biden's standpoint, he's going to get a lot of blowback from his left wing. But it's absolutely essential to reach a compromise and to get a greater handle on the security. And in the end, it's to President Biden's advantage to get something done. And it might be to the detriment of those who want to run and say it's the biggest issue in America. But again, that's why Congress is there is to address these issues. And I think about not just the border, but also our support for Israel and Ukraine that's hanging out there, fighting the battle against Russia. We got to get it done.

And that's the thing, though, that I think we both agree on when it comes to America and Congress and leaders is that we're not whiners America. You know, we're doers and there are issues, you know, and if President Biden challenges Congress to come up with a border solution to then have Trump and some of his kind of MAGA hard right wingers in the house go, we're not gonna do it because we wanna help Trump so we could whine about things.

I mean, to me, I'm like, what, what are you even doing? Here's what Mitt Romney just said moments ago about Trump, about the politics of it, trying to kill a bipartisan border deal that you and I, and I think Democrats in the Senate and Republicans, we want to get this done. Here, play this clip. I think the border is a very important issue for Donald Trump. And the fact that he would communicate to Republican senators and Congress people that he doesn't want us to solve the border problem

because he wants to blame Biden for it is really appalling. But the reality is that we have a crisis at the border. The American people are suffering as a result of what's happening at the border. And someone running for president ought to try and get the problem solved as opposed to saying, hey, save that problem. Don't solve it. Let me take credit for solving it later. I'm going to put a checkmark next to Governor Hutchinson and Ben Micellus agree there should be a bipartisan border solution and Donald Trump trying to stop that from happening would be bad. Can I put the check mark there?

Check it. So let's go to Ukraine. You brought up Ukraine. I think you and I both agree that there needs to be funding in Ukraine. They need to get the weapons that they need. There's no American soldiers that are in Ukraine fighting, that this is not only important,

but would I be overstating it, Governor, if I said this is actually existential to the safety of the world right now and our alliances that we support Ukraine? It's probably a little bit too strongly worded. I think it is consistent with American values. It's consistent with the sacrifice our forefathers made in Europe during World War II. And it's important for the national security of the United States. Now, if the United States does nothing, I think Europe will continue to support Ukraine and Ukraine will continue to fight that battle, but they'll be weakened and it'll weaken the United States of America. And so it's, to me,

an existential threat to Ukraine and it's a threat to Europe. But Europe has stepped up and it just doesn't look good for the United States of America that we cannot step up and continue a level of support for Ukraine. That is, otherwise you're setting the stage for a Russia victory and they're over there laughing right now saying the United States and Congress cannot get their act together. President Biden cannot even get the American people to support a package to support Ukraine. That's not good for American leadership or our country. But, Governor, who you agree there should be support. I agree there should be support.

President Biden agrees there should be support i agree there should be support president biden agrees there should be support the democrats mostly in congress i don't really know a democrat who doesn't believe there should be support on on ukraine but i will presuppose maybe there's less than i can count on one hand but i could say mostly all democrats would vote for a Ukraine aid package. Every single Democratic senator, I'm confident, would vote for a Ukraine package. So Biden, Democrats in the House, Democrats in the Senate, mostly all Republican senators, save for maybe eight or nine in the Senate, would support a Ukraine package. But then we go to the House of Representatives, and I think we have to be surgical in where the issue is coming from, because it's coming from the same people that we just talked about on the border, who I think are playing politics, because Donald Trump is saying certain things and sending message to them like this. This is what Trump's posting these

weird messages on his social media where he makes these videos of himself. And here's what he had to say. Finally, we have to finish the process we began under my administration of fundamentally re-evaluating NATO's purpose and NATO's mission. Our foreign policy establishment keeps trying to pull the world into conflict with a nuclear-armed Russia based on the lie that Russia represents our greatest threat. But the greatest threat to Western civilization today is not Russia. It's probably, more than anything else, ourselves and some of the horrible USA hating people. So there you have Donald Trump saying that we need to reconsider NATO, that Putin is not a threat. When we talk about who's playing politics, don't you think that that's

kind of where it's coming from right right there that we just saw well sure i mean he has uh as a former president he has continued his sway over many republican members of congress uh and the base and he has raised questions about our support for Ukraine. Ron DeSantis stepped into that in his campaign as well. Vivek Ramaswamy in the same way. And so there's a significant division in the Republican Party on our not just support of Ukraine, but any international leadership role of the United States of America. Now, so I would lay blame on Donald Trump. I would also lay blame on members who don't have the courage to step up and do what they think is right and disregard the pressure that might come from a former president.

I would also lay part of the blame though, on President Biden. And he's fully supportive of Ukraine, but he has not sold the American people on why this is critical to the United States of America. And perhaps he's just not simply the communicator that we need, but it illustrates that the President cannot let a former President sway the public. He's got to get in there and compete for the hearts and minds of the American people, and he's got to win. And you've got to lay out the case. I don't

believe he has done it effectively. And I remember, again, Ronald Reagan and George W. Bush, whenever you lay out the case that we have to take action, you don't just go to Congress, you go to the American public and persuade them. Congress listens to them. And if the American people have been calling in saying, we need to get this aid package done, that influences Congress and is a counterbalance to what you're seeing from these leaders that we talked about. So there, while on a policy who actually has the power to vote on the issue, we both acknowledge that it is this group of Republicans who are supporting Donald Trump, telling him to do something, and they're following that. And even they may not be doing what they, in their heart and conscious and policy, want to do. But there, you know, you think that Biden needs to just be

out there communicating more effectively to the American people how this is kind of an existential threat to combat the kind of, let's face it, the kind of lies, disinformation, pro-Putin propaganda that's being pumped out by kind of Donald Trump every day? What is Joe Biden talking about every day that he goes out? Today, I think he's in Michigan. Yesterday, I think he was in Virginia. He's talking about the abortion issue. That is the main driving message that he has is abortion. He doesn't talk about the need to assert ourselves to stand against Russia. He doesn't talk about our support for Ukraine and the necessity of it. At least he hasn't sold it. And most recently, he's moved away from it to the internal debate that we have on abortion. And I don't think that's helpful to

get it done. So we could talk about what that communication strategy looks like. But in theory, checkmark, you and I agree on Ukraine and generally kind of foreign policy. We both agree you should support NATO and praising Putin is bad. We agree with that. We agree on the issue that there should be a bipartisan solution on the border. So we've got two checkmarks, right? If you want to characterize those as check marks, I think that's true. All right, so, but let's go to kind of debt, the deficit, and a major issue throughout Republican kind of party. And it was talking about fiscal hawks being fiscally conservative and balancing a budget and all of that.

So I look at Donald Trump's time in office where you had the House and the Senate, at least at one point in time before 2018, controlled by Republicans. And even before COVID, Donald Trump doing things and having policies that did not balance the budget, that did not reflect even against the Congressional Budget Office's predictions, would not lead to or would lead to increasing the deficit and would lead to tons of debt. And so here's what Nikki Haley's been saying. And it's not like just like a little bit, like it's kind of the most ever. Like, so the most kind of debt ever, like in American history, I think was created by Trump. And that's what Nikki Haley's out there saying. So we have this clip of Nikki here, play this clip.

I don't care about polls. What I care about the fact is that no one is telling the American people the truth. The truth is that Biden didn't do this to us. Our Republicans did this to us too. When they passed that $2.2 trillion COVID stimulus bill, they left us with 90 million people on Medicaid, 42 million people on food stamps. No one has told you how to fix it. I'll tell you how to fix it. They need to stop the spending. They need to stop the borrowing. They need to eliminate the earmarks that Republicans brought back in and they need to make sure they understand these are taxpayer dollars. It's not their dollars. And while they're all saying this, you have Ron DeSantis, you've got Tim Scott, you've got Mike Pence. They

all voted to raise the debt. And Donald Trump added eight trillion to our debt. And our kids are never going to forgive us for this. And so at the end of the day, you look at the twenty twenty four budget. Republicans asked for seven point four billion in earmarks. Democrats asked for two point eight billion. So you tell me who are the big spenders. I think it's time for an accountant in the White House. And to me, that's just like when I do the kind of podcast and I'm not sure if you've

watched my this podcast before, I just like to show the clips and go, look, I'm not trying to be partisan one way or another. That's just what the data is and reflects. What do you make of what she just said, Governor? Well, I largely agree with it. Of course, she was hitting at Donald Trump then versus Joe Biden, but there's joint responsibility. Democrat, Republican administrations have added to the debt that we have. Joe Biden has continued that drift. The Inflation Reduction Act is a good example of that, but she hit it hard. She pointed it out. I was standing on that stage, if you noticed, and I support a balanced budget amendment to our United States

Constitution to force Congress to move away from the overspending that they're doing. And in fact, Ben, the last time the federal government balanced the budget was when I was the United States Congress. Bill Clinton was president and George W. Bush. We actually got it balanced. So we've got to get back to that. And she's sounding the alarm and I applaud her for it. Yeah. And again, I think it's an area where we could reach some agreement. Right. I mean, the first two years in the Biden administration, though, I think the objective data shows that the deficit actually shrank those first two years. But in the third year, I think it's increased by about a trillion dollars. But then you also look at Trump and

when he was running and we're talking about $8 know, $8 trillion. And so I always just like to kind of line up that, that data right there. And when, you know, if Trump's out there saying that he's a fiscal hawk over, you know, Nikki Haley, I just, I just don't think the data shows that that's his legacy. No, no, I agree a hundred percent with you. And that's where Donald Trump is not a true conservative. I remember during the debate on how much stimulus money the federal government should send back to the American public, the Democrats had a plan to spend so much for every person and send a stimulus package back. And Donald Trump challenged them and said, no, spend more, spend more. It needs to be higher.

So he's not a fiscal conservative. That's not a focus of his. And if he's president again, I suspect that he's going to follow the same philosophy of spending and not, you know, moving toward a balanced budget. And then let me just show you these photos. I could probably show you a thousand of these, but we don't have time for that, although I'm really enjoying the conversation. Here's what Donald Trump basically posts every day.

And I'm not going to show you the ones, a jury did find Donald Trump liable for sexual assault in May. That was the finding of a jury. That's what a jury said. But then he posts like every day, governor, like 60 times in a row posts about a woman. He was found liable for sexually assaulting and i say to people if i had a buddy who posted 60 times about any topic i don't know if you're on a fantasy football league or what your hobbies are but if you had a friend who posted like 60 times post post post post i'd be like i don't think you're well i just i don think you're well. So he's posting like that. And then he's posting this. So in between like all these posts, he posts these QAnon memes with like the Q logo on his shirt, which QAnon is like a death cult. And he's posting images from accounts called

fruit snacks that are QAnon accounts. And then he's doing this one where it says January 6th will go down in history as the day the government staged a riot to cover up the fact that they certified a fraudulent election. And he posts that attacks a victim of sexual assault that a jury found, and then does this all. And then it calls people bird brain. Let me ask you this. Would you hire in any kind of company that you ran, would you hire somebody who behaved like that, just at that threshold level? If you had an employee, would that be someone you would hire

or would you fire that person? No, I wouldn't. He's applying for the biggest job in America, president of the United States, and one is not supportable by his actions in the past. And then his specific plans for the future is awful. Whenever you're talking about retribution, whenever you're looking at his current state of mind. And to me, the most offensive thing of all that you've described is how he has misled his supporters and trying to rewrite history on what happened on January 6th.

Calling them patriots and then not recognizing that it was attack on the rule of law, it was attack on law enforcement and attack on the rule of law, it was attack on law enforcement and attack on the institution of Congress. And so that, to me, is disqualifying for President of the United States. And I have said that ever since January 6th happened. I've said he's morally responsible for it. And the question now is whether he'll be legally responsible and accountable for it as well. And what he says makes a difference. It's extraordinary, the language now that January 6th defendants are hostages, and he gets applause lines at his rallies on that. This is not a pretty sight for American democracy.

And he brags. Just how embarrassing and dangerous. He brags. He goes on shows. Hannity gives the guy the biggest softball questions in the world. And then Donald Trump responds by saying, did you hear that I made a song with the insurrectionists? It's called the anthem and it's better than Taylor Swift. Here, let me show you this clip and I'll have one final question for you, Governor. I am enjoying this convo, but I'll give you one more question. Show this clip, Salty. Are you really beating Taylor Swift, by the way that's sort of like are you really beating taylor swift by the way yeah i did uh the j6 is beating taylor it's donald trump and the j6 prisoners the pledge of allegiance on itunes and on amazon wow and on billboard which is the big deal number one donald trump so now i feel like elvis because now we've done the Apprentice. That was a great success. We did, now I've done a recording or whatever you call it. But no, it was number one.

And you know what that is? That's a tribute to the fact that people feel the J6 people have been very unfairly treated. Governor, do you think Donald Trump is an actual conservative? Do you think Donald Trump is like an actual Republican in the party that you know? No, no. And it's not just about the fact that he's made it about personality over principle, but it's also because his policies are wrong. Whenever you talk about the traditional Republican Party has believed in the concept of free trade,

the United States can compete on a global marketplace. He wants to put a ring around America, a 10% tariff on Canada, on Great Britain, on our allies as they try to sell goods to the United States of America. That hurts our consumers. That's not conservative. His spending is not conservative. And then literally his isolationist on the global stage is not in the traditions of the Republican Party. And my concern is that public service, which I've engaged in, is about the public good. He has made it about his personal ego, and that has redefined the Republican Party into the Trump Party. Now,

I say that, I hope that we can reverse that this year, that we can win this fight, and we can restore integrity and character as a serious element in the Republican Party. Obviously, I tried to make that case running for president of the United States and I was not successful. But this battle is going to have to continue into the convention. Oh, and Nikki Haley is doing a good job of sounding the alarm. I've endorsed her. But there's a great deal at stake because of what you've outlined as challenges in a Donald Trump presidency and his abandonment of true conservative policies. Governor, I want to thank you for your time.

And I think it's important for people to see as well that on a lot of these issues, we could find common ground, that we can have a real civil discussion. And I'm sure if we dig deeper on the issues on amounts and spending and priorities, you and I may have disagreements, but fundamentally, we care about preserving and protecting our democracy. And I think we both acknowledge the threat that MAGA poses and that Trump poses. So thank you so much. Hey, it's great to be with you. And yes, we agree on a lot of things.

And to me, democracy and service is about trying to find that common ground and leave the rest for a disagreeing at another time. But there's a lot of areas. We'll do that another time. For now, democracy. Thank you, everybody. And I hope you come back because I want to ask you some questions as we get closer and we'll see what develops. But I want to leave it here for now. Thank you, everybody, for watching. Make sure you hit subscribe. We just passed 2 million subscribers. And again, thank you to the governor for his graciousness and spending some time with us and have a great day.

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