The MeidasTouch Podcast - Glenn Kirschner Predicts Trump CRIMINAL REFERRALS in Jan 6 Probe

Episode Date: June 7, 2022

On today’s episode of The MeidasTouch Podcast, we sit down with Glenn Kirschner, a 30 year federal prosecutor, homicide prosecutor, Army JAG & host of Justice Matters! Our conversation with Kirschner is a deep dive into the January 6 Committee hearings set to begin this week. During the interview, we get Glenn’s thoughts on what we should expect and what we need out of the J6 hearings. The remainder of the episode, we break down the latest news of the week to keep you up to date! We expose a political action group supporting Georgia Republican candidate Herschel Walker who bragged about practically bribing Georgians to vote for Walker by handing out free gas vouchers, a CBS poll that shows 44 percent of republicans believing we should ACCEPT mass shootings, the radical right group Turning Point USA wielding their main attraction Kyle Rittenhouse as a perfect future suitor for a female companion, and much more. If you enjoyed today’s episode, please be sure to rate, review & subscribe. As a reminder, NEW episodes of The MeidasTouch Podcast release every Monday & Thursday evening! DEALS FROM OUR SPONSORS: Thuma: https://thuma.co/touch AG1 by AthleticGreens: https://athleticgreens.com/meidas Upstart: https://upstart.com/meidas Better Help Online Therapy: https://betterhelp.com/meidas Remember to subscribe to ALL the Meidas Media Podcasts: MeidasTouch: https://pod.link/1510240831 Legal AF: https://pod.link/1580828595 The PoliticsGirl Podcast: https://pod.link/1595408601 The Influence Continuum: https://pod.link/1603773245 Kremlin File: https://pod.link/1575837599 Mea Culpa with Michael Cohen: https://pod.link/1530639447 The Weekend Show: https://pod.link/1612691018 The Tony Michaels Podcast: https://pod.link/1561049560 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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and here it is folks the week of the january 6th hearings begins our Our guest, Glenn Kirshner, a 30-year former federal prosecutor who now hosts the world-famous podcast Justice Matters. Excited to have Glenn Kirshner on the podcast. Let's go. Breaking down what we can expect during the January 6th hearings. The January 6th hearings will be on primetime starting at 8 Eastern. You can watch the January 6th hearings live on the Midas Touch podcast. We will begin with pregame coverage of the January 6th hearings, postgame coverage of the January 6th hearings. We will be breaking it down for you live as the

hearings take place. We'll also be talking about on this podcast, a political action group that is supporting Georgia's Republican candidate for Senate, Herschel Walker, that was giving away gas vouchers to people, $25 vouchers, and basically saying you got to vote for Walker, don't vote for Warnock in exchange for these gas vouchers. Very strange, potentially unlawful. We will break that down on the podcast. A new CBS poll says that nearly 50% of Republicans believe that we shouldn't do anything to address mass shootings, that America should just accept mass shootings. Let me repeat that. That's half of Republicans basically think that you shouldn't take any action at all.

Just mass shootings. They said you got to live with it. You just live with something we have to live with. Every single day we are having like not even like one mass shooting anymore. Like you'll go through the weekend. You'll have like, oh, 10 mass shootings happened over the weekend. 30 mass shootings happened in the past week. It's a real epidemic in this country and Republicans don't want to do a damn thing about it. Well, it's the same Republican party that held its radical right turning points

conventions. Purportedly, its women's convention was held this past weekend, and the main attraction was a pitch to the audience to marry Kyle Rittenhouse, and they brought Kyle Rittenhouse on the stage with a golden retriever and talked about how all the women should marry him. We're going to break down these issues on the Midas Touch podcast. I guess, where do we even start with this craziness, this fascism, this hate, this bizarreness on the GOP? I know where we could start, brothers. We're going to start with little Stevie Lawson out of Georgia. Now, diehard listeners of the Midas touch podcast, probably know a little bit of our history with Stevie Lawson and everybody else is probably like,

who the heck is Stevie Lawson? Ben, why don't you give a little retrospective for the new listeners? Because, Oh, this is, this is good, guys. Stevie Lawson basically makes the wrong decision his entire career. So Stevie Lawson started working with DeSantis like early and left DeSantis to work for Kelly Loeffler, which in and of itself is a ridiculous decision to make. But Lawson was DeSantis' communication guy, number one. Then he works for the Kelly Loeffler campaign. Looting Loeffler, as they call her for the Kelly Loeffler campaign. Looting Loeffler, as they call her. Looting Loeffler, as I mean, I think everybody calls her Looting Loeffler at this point. And Stevie Lawson started going into my comments. This is when Midas Touch was first growing,

and our platform wasn't even that big. And the guy just continually would just say things to me in my comments. So I was finally like, dude, what are you doing? You work for looting Leffler. This is completely absurd. So because he was trying to like pick on me, he drew my attention. And then I exposed just what a ridiculously bad communications director he was. Like, I think inarguably the Leffler campaign was like the worst communications effort imaginable. And so because this Stevie Lawson was continually in my messages, I felt like we had to talk about

him. So we talked about him on a podcast. Was this from February of 2021? Was that when this podcast was? We also referenced previously Lawson jumping into our messages on us because it was constant. Little Stevie Lawson. Brett, play the tape. And not only that, but he would like creep into my replies. And I wouldn't even like realize it until like I would just see other people attacking him from being in my replies. Let me just pause it to say we look like each of us look like 15 years younger. Dude, we have aged all of us so much in the last year and a half.

Rough times. All right, let's keep playing. Yeah, keep playing. Keep playing. And I'd be like, dude, you're the deputy campaign manager. Can you just get out of my frickin replies, man? Well, he was proved to be the very worst campaign manager that there was. We made a video about him. Let's play the clip from the last Midas Dutch podcast where I talked about Kelly Loeffler's horrible campaign manager, Stephen Lawson. Loeffler's communications director, deputy campaign manager, Stephen Lawson. Little Stevie.

Little Stevie. Where'd you go, little Stevie, Stevie. I'm looking at you. You seditious traitor. You despicable, disgusting human being. You may have blocked me on Twitter for calling you out as the worst political operative in the history. But don't think the Midas mighty has forgotten. Stevie Lawson thought that he was some fucking rock star wanting to boost his Twitter fucking presence and looks like a piece of shit fool. Stevie Lawson, Stevie Lawson, you embarrass the country. You embarrass the family. Little Stevie. I then go on to say in the podcast, the original one that not the one, the clip within the clip. What if we just kept, what if it was like in that clip, it was then like, and we spoke about him in the last episode

and it just kept happening. I said, it might as such podcast inception. The rest of the episode was just flashbacks, but I was prescient play the end of that clip where I say he always finds himself on the wrong side of history wherever he's working. How many times can one person just be on the wrong side of history? I mean, little Stevie Lawson, you know, little Stevie Lawson self-flagellates. He's an S&M. I'm this is my opinion. I have no facts. This is just my own personal opinion. I think he self-flagellates, you know, so he whips himself. And I think he's totally into S&M. Like, he just loves being beat.

You could tell with that shit-eating grin of his. That little Stevie Lawson is just such a, he's such a, I won't even go there. I can't imagine why the guy doesn't like us. Well, here's the thing. There was definitely a different energy I had back even go there. I can't imagine why the guy doesn't like us. Well, here's the thing. There was definitely a different energy I had back then, too. I mean, I'm not sure. Have I gotten way more mature now?

No, man, you're becoming way too mainstream. We want that old Ben energy back. I mean, what was that? What was that kind of brain? I mean, I'm the same human being, but I listen to myself talk, and I'm like, that's pretty brutal, Ben. And the wild part about that was all he really did was chirp at you in the replies. Like it wasn't like that. Like he didn't commit other than

imagine if he actually did something. Well, he did do something and that's why we're bringing him back up today. Well, yeah. So I think we've aged a lot to a lot of growth that we've undergone mature maturity wise. We'll see where this segment goes. But yes, so as as Geordie predicted, he's always on the wrong side of history. Following looting Leffler's campaign, he started working for a group to try to stop Stacey Abrams from running for governor. And that didn't exactly work. And now he's one of the main people, apparently, behind this group, 34 and 22, that was doing this

gas voucher scheme. And also, who was he doing this gas voucher scheme with that you see in these videos? It was somebody by the name of Angela Stanton King, and she was convicted, I think, around 2004 for a conspiracy relating to car theft. She was pardoned by Donald Trump in 2020. She's the individual you see on this video actually giving the gas vouchers. She's a QAnon supporter also. She denies that she's a QAnon supporter, but Brett, let's play the clip from The Guardian of them asking her about her tweeting things like the storm is coming and other types of tweets. This was her response when The Guardian asked this to her about two years ago. You have been accused of sympathizing with the QAnon conspiracy theory.

Who accused me of that? Many people. And I just wanted to ask you about a few tweets. No, no, I need you to be flexible. Who accused me of that? Because what is an accusation? Is that something that's been proven in court? Have I ever gone on record and said

I'm a member of QAnon because I have not? Okay. So who are the people that accused me of that? So when you tweeted, this isn't about COVID-19 or Black Lives Matter. This is a major cover up for pedophilia and human trafficking. That has nothing to do with QAnon. What did you mean by that? Exactly what I said. Well, give me some evidence.

I don't think it needs any explanation. Okay. So when you said, did Ghislaine Maxwell tip off authorities about Wayfair? What did you mean by that? Exactly what I said. What's the next one? So do you believe that an online... Exactly what I said. You can read. What's the next one? Do you believe that an online... Exactly what I said. What's the next one? Do you believe... We done. Let's go. Do you believe that an online furniture retailer is peddling a global paedophilia conspiracy? Then as he proceeds to go and asks her why do you write the storm is coming and she said

it was a stormy day that day. There was a rain. It was. Oh, yeah. What about the tweet when you said the storm is here? That's that's QAnon. It was raining that day. It was raining that day.

Yeah. I think that's one of the things that bothers me the most about Republicans is intellectual dishonesty, where you can't just admit that's what you're saying. Like, just own it. Like, if you're going to be crazy, if you're going to be a QAnon person, just say, yeah. And like, at least own the fact that you are a QAnon supporter instead of being like, oh, the storm is coming. Oh, it was a rainy day that day. Like, fuck that. What are you talking about? They do with everything, though. And you see it with the politicians, too, like with this abortion ban that's on its way when we're inevitably going to get overturned. I mean, they don't want to spike the football on that, although they will be gleefully cheering

in the corner quietly. It's lies and gaslighting over and over again. But it's the same thing with the Ted Cruz, like complaining about the Green New Deal being responsible for the Texas energy grid. A, there is no green deal. B, Texas runs its own energy grid. It's that constant gaslighting and bad faith, just engagement. That really is the main thing amongst other things, obviously. But it's really one of the big things that really bothers me about these people just so disingenuous, just liars.

Yeah. Well, here's the thing. People are like, well, Republicans are really good messengers. No, they're not. They just fucking lie all the time. They lie and they have megaphones like Fox News to then perpetuate those lies and right wing radio to perpetuate those lies. But they're really not. Listen to what they say. They're really not savvy messengers. They're really not. They're not. Their base is just simply not critical of the lies that they're saying. You know, it's like saying, was Putin a good messenger by saying that his purpose of invading Ukraine was denazification? There's no different. There's no different of a tactic than what Republicans are doing there. And you go, oh, is Putin a great, you know, a great, you know, communicator?

We hear go, no, that's the most ridiculous thing. But guess what? Russia TV says that's accurate. Similarly with Republicans. Yeah. Similarly with Republicans. That's exactly what's going on in, you know, with Fox News and with their right wing echo chambers. And they, yeah, is there unity within their message? Yeah. But it's a unity to whatever the new big lie is of the day. So just going back to this gas voucher scheme, these are the individuals who are on there.

You got Stevie Lawson out there. Little Stevie. You got him out there with Angela Stanton King, who we now know about her background. She was also the person in that photo with Trump. Remember that photo where they were like praying for him? She was the one right behind him in that photo. For our viewers, you can pull up that photo and you can see her. And she was the one who received a pardon by photo. For our viewers, you can pull up that photo and you can see her. And she was the one who received a pardon by Trump. But anyway, they're giving away these gas vouchers. And then they're basically gaslighting people and saying, we weren't telling people to vote for Herschel Walker. We weren't telling people not to vote for Warnock. And we

went over in a clip the laws that could be potentially violated here. And we talked about the Georgia law at stake here. And the Georgia law is found at Title 21, Section 21-2-570, giving or receiving, offering to give or receive, or participating in the giving or receiving the money or gifts for registering as a voter, voting or voting for a particular candidate. The law says, quote, any person who gives or receives offers to give or receive or participates in the giving or receiving of money or gifts for the purpose of registering as a voter, voting or voting for a particular candidate in any primary or election shall be guilty of a felony. Now, you will recall that bipartisan or nonpartisan groups were out there during the earlier elections giving water to people. And

they were not saying, because by law they couldn't say, vote for this person or vote for that one. They were giving food and water to people. And the Georgia Republicans threw a fit and said, that was unlawful conduct. That was illegal conduct. How dare you give people water who have to wait on these lines for hours and hours and hours? Or how dare you give them? And then they do this. And then they engage in this type of conduct, which is the exact opposite of everything they claim that they are trying to stop. I mean, this is what exactly what they rail against and they rail against it.

So then they can do it in the most egregious way possible. And Ben, this is what they're willing to put on camera and show people publicly. Imagine what they are doing behind the scenes corruptly to influence our elections. And we all need to be aware of it. We all need to be aware of these deceitful tactics and we should all call the FEC tip line and make complaints about this and have them at minimum investigate the behavior that is going on here.

Oh, no doubt there needs to be an investigation behind this the federal statute, which says whoever makes or offers to make an expenditure to any person, either to vote or withhold his vote or to vote for or against any candidate shall be fined under this title or in prison for not more than one year or both. And if the violation is willful, that will be two years or both. Now, you clearly see in the video them saying, do not vote for Warnock while giving away the gift. I mean, that's pretty clear of what we see taking place in the video. And that is not supposed to happen in these situations. But as you just dig deeper into what is going on, who's behind Herschel Walker there, and you start seeing that it's people like little Stevie Lawson with his background. And you start seeing it's

people like Angela Stanton King with her background. What does that tell you about who this GOP is? Let me tell you exactly what it tells you about who the GOP is. Let's go to that poll where the GOP says basically 50%. It was actually 44 percent to be specific based on the CBS poll are saying that it is acceptable to them. They accept mass shootings as just a way of life. There's nothing that can be done. Politicians shouldn't do anything as part of their freedoms. Apparently, they believe they should have the freedom to be shot and killed.

And Americans should be shot and killed in mass shootings, which is utterly ridiculous. But it is, to be fair, consistent, at least with their view about COVID and about the pandemic, which is that they were fine with millions and millions of people dying. They were fine spreading conspiracies, you know, but for the vaccines that were out and it's an egregious number of people who have died based on the mishandling of this from the very outset by Trump, but without the vaccine actually going out to the people, the way Biden was able to mass mobilize and get this out. Remember what a disaster it was under Trump where like you couldn't find or get the vaccine anywhere. Finally, with Biden, he was able to get these vaccines out.

We probably would have had three to four million more people dead if that vaccine wasn't out. I want you to think about it. And the Republicans were absolutely fine with it. They're absolutely fine with it. And here's the thing. You would think, well, maybe when their close family member dies or a friend dies, that maybe they would change their views. Nope. It really doesn't. We've heard stories where Republican politicians have been over and over and over again, how these anti-vaxxers, and they don't care. They have this strange view, this incredibly nihilistic dystopian view of life where death is an acceptable solution. They don't view dying as not a good thing. But that's why I am not being facetious in any way when I call the

Republican Party a death cult. And I use the word cult on purpose because that is one of the main tenants of a cult. It's never deviate from a cult, never distrust the cult. The cult is always right. The cult leader is always right. Just trust in the plan. And you could go down all the main factions of the Republican Party and they all lead to this cult-like behavior, whether it's with Trump or QAnon, you name it. It's all part of this death cult. More than a dozen. Think about that. More than a dozen mass shootings, not this month, not this year, this past weekend, you guys, this past weekend in America, and we don't have a Republican Party willing to do even the most basic of things to make sure that people don't die.

And by the way, you speak up. You're a Republican like a Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger. They toss you out immediately. You're woke. Go broke. You're woke. And on the other side of that, you become a Madison Cawthorn who tells secrets inside the party, inside the community that kick you out. It's a very, very weird thing that we're all witnessing. I mean, it's, it's honestly, like, it's like Scientology, right? I mean, I think that's probably one of the biggest examples everybody knows in Scientology. They have suppressive persons. Suppressive persons are people who deviate from the beliefs of Scientology and they are outcasts. And these could be your

close family members in Scientology. This could be your son. This could be your significant other. This could be anybody, but once they deviate from what your cult leader is telling you, then you become a suppressive person and you are kicked out of that group woke because I don't support an insurrection because I believe in vaccines, that vaccines work. And or I believe in following what the medical community is saying. And Ben, look at what Ron DeSantis just did this weekend to that effect. Ron DeSantis punished the Tampa Bay Rays by vetoing their funding for their stadium. Now, we could and because that they spoke out against gun violence against children, they spoke out against gun violence,

they made a donation to a gun safety group, and Ron DeSantis, when he received the budget, he made a line item and crossed out the funding for the Tampa Bay Rays stadium. Now, we could debate the merits of paying for these stadiums, and I would say, you know, maybe it's not a good idea of paying for these stadiums. And I would say, you know, maybe it's not a good idea to pay for these stadiums often, but that's really not the concern here. The concern here is why is that money being vetoed? The money being vetoed here

is because they decided to use their free speech to speak out, not against anything crazy, but to say, we don't want kids to die. And Ron DeSantis goes, oh, go woke, go broke. You're no longer getting your funding. For the party that talks about cancel culture, and they speak about cancel culture in terms of private individuals criticizing other private individuals for takes that are inappropriate. This is literal cancel culture and actual censorship. The government take using the power of the government to silence and punish a business because you're in disagreement over a specific issue. But that's not all that DeSantis did this weekend that was despicable. DeSantis also was brave enough to attack,

you guessed it, the Special Olympics. Yeah, you heard me right. DeSantis threatened to levy an eight-figure fine against the Special Olympics if they didn't drop its COVID-19 vaccine requirement for its games in Orlando. The Special Olympics, of course, is full of people who are immunocompromised. This is a matter of life or death for a lot of the attendees and a lot of the participants. And DeSantis said, I will fine you eight figures if you do this. And so they caved because they were like, we can't afford that. We cannot afford that fine. And that is the government bullying people into submission. That is what this whole go woke, go broke movement is about. And that's why we need to fight back against this fascism and this corruption. It's more than bullying. Ron DeSantis is a hostage taker. That's what he's doing. He's holding all of these companies, all of these people, all of the

pro-democracy folks in Florida hostage saying, hey, if you don't agree with me on 100% of the things that I truly believe, well, guess what? Your project's not getting funded. You're not getting X, Y, and Z. It's not right. Here's the thing, Brett. It was reported as DeSantis threatening the Special Olympics, but I read the letter that the agency sent the Special Olympics. I mean, the letter says you are hereby fined $27 or $28 million. It didn't even give a due process solution. It didn't say you may be fined. It literally says you are actually fined $27 and $28 million because you had a requirement to have people be vaccinated and to wear masks in the Special Olympics. And Brett, you talk about these other efforts. Literally in all aspects of life, he's doing

this. Some which aren't reported and get the headlines, but, or they get the headlines for a day and our mass media forgets about these things. But you recall, for example, the social media law that he passed, which would have forced Twitter and Facebook to permit people to spread COVID disinformation, to spread hate speech, to spread the big lie, because people who would spread that disinfo would be taken off the platforms because the platforms want to create safe spaces. So if you spread the big lie or COVID disinfo or spread this fake information about ivermectin, you would get penalized by

the platforms. And so he made a law that basically would fine these social media companies to the point of taking them out of business. Ultimately there, the 11th Circuit ruled you're violating the social media platform's First Amendment rights. But then Greg Abbott tried to do the exact same thing in Texas. It actually reached the Supreme Court recently because the Fifth Circuit actually allowed Greg Abbott's version of that law to stay into place. And fortunately, the Supreme Court basically said, look, we need to wait and at least hear what the arguments are before allowing the Abbott law to stay in place.

So we'll allow the district court's ruling, which was the lower court's ruling, which stopped Abbott's law to remain in place while the case gets litigated. But there you have a dissent from Justice Alito. And Justice Alito basically says, we live in a very different world now. So much things have changed. And so we can't look at the First Amendment the same way anymore because social media platforms have now become like common carriers. So we need to look at the Constitution like an evolving document. Ooh, where have we heard the exact fucking argument before with the Republicans on everything that doesn't suit their narrative? When it comes to assault weapons, that's not what the argument that they use. It's the exact opposite. When it comes to assault weapons, that's not what the argument

that they use. It's the exact opposite. When it comes to a woman's right to choose, they don't use that argument. It's the exact opposite. But when it comes to all of a sudden the right of private actors to exercise free speech, we live in a whole new modern age that the founders couldn't predict it. That's what they say then. It's absurd. That's what they said. And one more thing I want to mention about Texas as we talk about gun control and gun reform. Did you know this fact? This is really insidious, that Texas has a law which says that banks can't do business with the state of Texas if they take political positions that are basically pro-gun reform or if the banks won't lend to these gun manufacturers.

If the banks take any position like that, Texas says, we won't do business with you. So these large, big Texas pension funds that give these banks hundreds of millions of dollars in fees, Texas basically says, you better support the gun manufacturers who are putting guns in the hands of 18-year-olds or this state won't do business with you. And they wield that and retaliate against banks. So that's why these corporations can't be more robust in their support of things that their workers actually support, because you have these fascistic authoritarian leaders like Greg Abbott and like DeSantis. And that's happening on all of these issues across the board. And going from that to even the more absurd, you then have Kyle Rittenhouse showing up at man and that you need to marry him.

A woman would be lucky to marry a Kyle Rittenhouse. What in the world is this? I mean, going back to the cult behavior, this is some of the most disturbing and disgusting, you know, just thing in the conception of of the world, man. Yeah. I mean, it's another kind of cult gathering these these events that Charlie Kirk puts on. And especially it's very, very, very dystopian when you see Kyle Rittenhouse being willed out there like some sort of hero being pitched as the epitome of manhood and what all women should inspire to marry. And their whole thing also there is about subjugating women. Their whole thing

there is about a woman's place in the world is to marry a man and to care for that man. That is it. And to make babies, make as many babies as possible was something that they kept hitting throughout this because they don't want women to have careers, to have power, to have a say in the government. That's why they really are trying to take America into a Handmaid's Tale style form of just total subjugation of women. That's what this whole event is about. That Rittenhouse clip was one of the most disturbing. I mean, he came out to a thunderous applause, like he was like a beetle. He's a hero to them. He's a hero to them.

Really disturbing. And then it's about the women need to marry this man. I mean, what are we talking about? This is why the stakes could not be higher this week as the January 6th hearings are taking place, because our democracy normalcy is on the line. And you listening to this, you watching this, when you go, well, what can we do? What is the solution? You're looking at the person in the mirror. That's it. You can control what you can control. I can control what I can control.

And Brett and Jordy can control what we can control and what they can control. And so it's all about just making sure you're using every day, every moment you have the opportunity to not give up, to not be defeatist, to not overcome. When you think about fascist regimes across the world and the history of fascist regimes, they usually only represent about 25 to 30 percent of the population. But like the example of the frog that's boiling in the pot and the frog just stays there in the pot until they're fully boiled while the water's getting hotter and hotter and hotter.

We can't be the frog in the pot. And that's what happens in fascistic countries. That's the history of it. They're the frog in the pot until finally the fascist overthrows them because the people are like, well, it's hot, but I got to go to work. It's hot, but, you know, I got to do this this week. And it's hot, but, you know, And before you know it, you are boiled. And that's what Midas Touch is trying to tell you. We're trying to not get you boiled right now. And the

way to do that is to raise your voice and to be heard and to reach out and to share the Midas Touch videos, to share the videos that you've seen, and to just not give up because the other side, they're smaller. If we all went out there and voted, we would destroy them in every single election, but it's because they're out there lined up like a cult, unified with their big, bizarre lies and their dystopian death cult they want to anoint. But you are being called upon at this great moment to do something truly great with your lifetime. And that's what we're asking of you, which is to get out there, register voters and do something and save our democracy together. Someone who's on the front line to cut you off at the knees here, Ben, that was a really powerful speech right before we

bring in Glenn, but frog in the pot. Do you mean, do you mean like a lobster? What's this frog in a pot analogy? I've never heard that one before. It's because you don't read. Let's bring in. You never really heard of the frog in the pot analogy boiling frog syndrome it's a thing all right you guys tell me it's a thing fine i'll go around tell people it's a thing let's bring it the premise is that boiling frog you go wikipedia boiling frog syndrome it's a thing i get it okay the premise is that if a frog is put suddenly into boiling water, it will jump out. But if the frog is put in tepid water, which is then brought to boil slowly,

it will not perceive the danger and it will be cooked to death. You learn something new every day on this podcast. That's why you got to hang out around Brett and me more. Let's bring in Glenn Kirshner on the pod, our interview with Glenn Kirshner. But before bringing Glenn Kirshner, Brett, you want to talk about Thuma? Thuma is one of my favorite new sponsors. I'm so excited to speak about Thuma. And you guys, Midas Touch listeners, your bedroom deserves a refresh. And now is the perfect time to elevate the most important room in your home with Thuma.

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Incredible organization. Glenn Kirshner, welcome to the pod. Hey, guys. Great to see you again. So, Glenn, over time, it seems like we check in with you every two months or so. I'm going to be so bold as to say right now you are one of the, if not, in my opinion, the most trusted source out there for legal news kind of cutting through the BS. been so incredible to see that. What do you think that is just resonating with the people in how you deliver this information that maybe the mainstream media isn't picking up on? Because I'd like to see this news get out there to as many people as possible. First of all, that's very flattering. Thank you for that. And, you know, I guess I tried to learn how to cut through the BS and 30 years of standing in front of juries, trying to persuade them of the righteousness of the case. We brought the quality and quantity of the evidence and why it was the right thing to do for 12 citizens to hold accountable a fellow citizen for breaking the laws of our jurisdiction.

So, you know, and I'm not a journalist. I'm a legal analyst and a prosecutor by trade and by career. So I don't have to present both sides of every issue. And there are two sides to many of the issues that we're contending with. You know, treason doesn't have another side. There's no flip side of the treason coin that kind of gives some plausible explanation for why a president of the United States would launch an attack against the certification of his opponent's win, refuse to call it off for three hours, sit there, watch it gleefully rewinding to the good parts, which I guess are the parts where I don't know his angry mob was giving the Capitol Police officers an especially good beat down. You know, having people streaming into the White House dining room, begging the president

of the United States to call off the attack that he launched against the U.S. Capitol. And then we learned most recently that he, one, was angry and frustrated that Mike Pence was being whisked to safety. And he said, maybe Mike Pence should be hanged. When you read the statute that covers the crime of treason, it couldn't be simpler or more straightforward. If you owe allegiance to the United States and you wage and you levy war against the United States, you're guilty of treason. You know, give any competent prosecutor time in front of a jury. And I maintain that we can prove the crime of treason has been committed. And that, you know, that's kind of the granddaddy of all crimes against the United States. I also

maintain we could prove a seditious conspiracy. We could certainly prove inciting an insurrection. And what I think all of these charges, what will happen with all of these charges, if DOJ asserts the rule of law as it should, is they will all be brought under the umbrella of what we call a 371 conspiracy, which is a very broad criminal statute that provides anyone who conspires to defraud or commit crimes against the United States is guilty of a 371 conspiracy against the United States. You know, I can't imagine, I can't conceive of our Department of Justice not bringing those charges against Donald Trump and his co-conspirators. And Glenn, I want to get to that in a bit, the grand jury that the DOJ has impaneled, what their recent subpoena activity tells us specifically to Peter Navarro. And how it is communicating treason is that it has equal merit to the non-treason side of the argument.

And it's just being portrayed as just two legitimate arguments. Well, on the one hand, you have a coup and fascism. And on the other side, you had democracy. If you rewind in our history, I don't recall, though I wasn't alive at the time period, I'll admit, but as a student of history, the media taking a pro-Nixon break-in of the Watergate side and being a proponent of that and saying, that was actually, there's legitimate reasons why you may want to break in and take the DNC's information. What we have now is a nuclear bomb version of that, right? That would be like a little missile compared to the nuclear bomb that was the fascist coup

that was trying to overthrow the United States government. But I think you just said it clearly what it is, which is you just tell it how it is and how it is is treason doesn't have a defense in this situation. Yeah, yeah. Watergate was shoplifting as compared to what we're experiencing right now with, you know, a concerted effort to kill our democracy. Let's call it what it is. And Ben, you hit on a great point because I think the media is stuck abiding by quaint little norms and traditions with respect to feeling this compulsion to try to present both sides of everything.

And you know what? There is a parallel problem in the Department of Justice, which is forever stuck on its norms and traditions. And I'll give you one example, but I definitely do want to get to the recent subpoena to Peter Navarro and everything that came after it. You know, in the Department of Justice, we have a, I'm going to call it a quaint little Norman tradition of not taking any overt law enforcement action within 60 days of an election that could impact the election or that could be perceived as partisan. Well, we're investigating insurrectionists in Congress who are running for reelection, the last thing you do is give

an insurrectionist an election holiday so they can get reelected, become even more firmly entrenched in our federal government, and continue to try to kill us from within. That's why those norms and traditions served us well for a long time. Now they're actually doing damage. And I can say that in the fourth estate and I can say that in our federal government. We need to move forward with the times. Last week, Peter Navarro was charged with contempt of Congress. Earlier in the week, he was also subpoenaed for other information from the DOJ. So those two were not necessarily related. But then the DOJ also sent a letter rather

that was subpoenaed by the grand jury, I should say. The DOJ then also sent a letter to Congress saying that it would not be prosecuting Mark Meadows, chief of staff and deputy chief of staff, Dan Scavino. What do you make of all that activity? Yeah, the justice gods give with one hand and take away with the other. I feel like we were all sort of riding a justice high when we saw Peter Navarro has finally been indicted for the crime he inarguably committed contempt of Congress. And I believe that's just for openers when it comes to Peter Navarro. And then virtually hours later, we see that the Department of Justice has declined to prosecute Mark Meadows and Dan Scavino for precisely the same crime, contempt of Congress. And I did a pretty deep dive video on the three leading candidates as I see them, knowing the DC U.S. Attorney's

Office from the inside the way I do, which is where all of this is unfolding. So, and let me try to bang out the three possibilities really quickly. First of all, we often will do coordinated interviews. What do I mean by that? Well, these three individuals, Navarro, Meadows, and Scavino, were in sort of a similar legal bucket in at least one sense. They were all referred for prosecution by Congress for contempt, for defying congressional subpoenas. So DOJ had three decisions to make. Of course, they already made the earlier decision. They indicted Steve Bannon for that crime. It could very well be that Peter Navarro, who received the grand jury subpoena for June 2nd to come in and, among other things, provide all evidence and information about his communications

with Donald Trump. First of all, what does that tell us? It tells us that DOJ absolutely is criminally investigating Donald Trump in the grand jury. That's the only way to read that request, that subpoena that Peter Navarro received. I have a feeling on June 2nd, we had, and I am not looking to offend anybody's religious practices or sensibilities, we call it a come to Jesus meeting. And we sit down with a Peter Navarro and we say, look, sport, you got two ways to go here. You can either fully cooperate, tell us about what you did, because we can't deal with any cooperating witness until they unload their own criminal misconduct, because only then can we credit what they tell us about the misconduct of others. Tell us what you credit what they tell us about the misconduct

of others. Tell us what you did and then tell us what everybody else did. Donald Trump, Steve Bannon, Mike Flynn, Rudy Giuliani, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And he had a decision to make. And it looks like Peter Navarro probably told the prosecutors, go take a flying leap. And he, you know, Green Bay swept himself right into an indictment. That's what he did. Because the next day, June 3rd, the indictment was unsealed. And we arrested him and presented him for his arraignment on that indictment. I have a feeling it might be that we also met in a coordinated series of meetings with Meadows and with Scamino the same day.

We we offered them the same opportunity. Look, we can bang you out for an indictment for contempt of Congress or you can cooperate. Maybe those other two individuals said, you know what, we're sick and tired of covering up for Donald Trump's crimes, because when you cover up for Donald Trump's crimes, you're committing more crimes yourself, like accessory after the fact in this prison of a felony. And maybe they decided to cooperate. Now, some people will say, you know what, I don't see Meadows and Scavino cooperating. And that could be. So here's a second possibility. It may be that DOJ said, look, Bannon and Navarro, they have no executive privilege to claim. Meadows and Scavino, they were the chief of staff and deputy chief of staff to the president of the United States. They have a more robust executive privilege to claim, even though ultimately, I believe we could defeat it in court for lots of reasons. But, you know, you layer on top of that, that Meadows actually tried to cooperate early on and provided thousands of documents to the J6 committee before he ultimately quitating of Donald Trump, some of them. So I could see the Department of Justice, which mark my words, I was on the inside for

decades, they do not like to take difficult, novel, challenging cases to court. And they especially shy away from cases that present maiden legal voyages, not their strong suit. They may have said, look, there's enough in the mix here that we're going to decline to bring this misdemeanor charge for contempt of Congress against Meadows and Scavino. That does not mean, nobody should interpret that as Meadows and Scavino are in the clear, because I believe Meadows particularly, when you see the text messages and the phone calls

that were coming in around the time of the insurrection, Meadows looks like, you know, he was treason central. You know, I've said I could see him, you know, taking calls, you know, Mark Meadows, how can I direct your treasonous call? And he's in real trouble. He's in real trouble. So I would expect him to get rolled in to the 371 conspiracy against the United States. And I don't think this declination on this misdemeanor charge of contempt of Congress is any indication that that's not going to happen. Mark Meadows was the hub because Donald Trump doesn't take text messages or phone calls. So they were all literally being routed to the guy and he was the one coordinating it. When you read those messages that have been released, they are totally outrageous. So do you think we've now reached, are we in a new phase, would you say, of the DOJ's investigation where they had focused on the lower level people, the mid-level people,

the highest of the mid-level people and the crazies like the Proud Boys and all of these people though, and now they're trying to connect it to the highest levels. Are we there yet? Yeah, I don't think DOJ sees it as phases. I just I think they see it as the natural progression of what is an unprecedented criminal investigation. And they continue to work their way up the criminal ladder to the command structure of the insurrection. And I think that is obviously what happened both by the Navarro subpoena seeking all communications with Donald Trump. That means they are investigating Trump. And there was a series of other subpoenas seeking information about, you know, Rudy Giuliani and Jenna Ellis and John Eastman and Chesabro. I forget if Kenneth Chesabro. These are some of the other sort of nefarious

lawyers who were architecting various pieces of the insurrection. So they're absolutely working their way up. And, you know, I was heartened when I read the interview in Salon with Norm Eisen, who is, you know, a man of significant accomplishments and was President Obama's, one of his government ethics gurus as assistant White House counsel or assistant to the president, I guess. And he said, look, I've known Merrick Garland for years and he may be quiet, but he fears no man and he has Trump in his sights. I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but from the people who really know Merrick Garland, as do some of my colleagues, I met him, but I don't pretend to know him.

I have heard nothing but reassuring things about the man he is. And even though I think he suffers from some of the same problems we talked about earlier, where we just abide by these old norms and traditions, I maintain he's moved too slowly. I maintain he hasn't brought charges in a way that meets the urgency of the moment, the moment that we are living in, the danger to our democracy. But that doesn't mean he's not going to get there in what he believes will be the most bulletproof case he can put together. I'm actually feeling more optimistic than less optimistic at this point. Glenn, speaking of lawyers and speaking of Navarro, I got to get your take. What do you think of Navarro representing himself right now? And we're going to get to the answer to Brett's

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it was helpful for me. Now let's get back to our interview with Glenn Kirshner. Glenn, speaking of lawyers and speaking of Navarro, I got to get your take. What do you think of Navarro representing himself right now? Yeah, he has a fool for a client. And here's my favorite. He will probably ultimately end up hiring a lawyer. But let's be clear. The Sixth Amendment to the Constitution says everybody has a right to counsel. But as importantly, everybody has the right to self-representation. That's the lifeblood of the law. The government can't force a lawyer on you if you want to represent yourself. Yes, he has a fool for a client and all those those sayings, I think, you know, are especially apropos for a guy like Peter Navarro. And here's my favorite part. You know, he just seems to think that by giving his criminal conduct a cute nickname, it's not criminal. I mean, he keeps

going on TV. It was the Green Bay sweep. It was the Green Bay sweep. And what would they do? They were sweeping Joe Biden out of his rightful win and sweeping Donald Trump back in for a second term as an aspiring dictator. I said, listen, if I rob a bank and I get caught like Peter Navarro has been caught and I say, whoa, whoa, whoa, didn't rob a bank. I was just deploying the Tom Brady accelerated withdrawal play. That's what it is. Well, guess what? It's still a crime. Navarro, I'm sorry. I don't I don't like to call people names the way Donald Trump does. He's a stone cold clown is what he is, who had no business ever setting foot in the White House except on a visitor tour. No, no doubt about that.

What do you make of the tension that we're seeing right now, though, between the Justice Department and the January 6th committee? We all saw that letter that the January 6th committee had submitted to DOJ after the declination to indict Meadows and Scavino. What do you make of that relationship right now? because after all, these are co-equal branches of government and they should not be, you know, walking together on this journey hand in hand, figuratively speaking, because they actually have significantly different mandates and responsibilities. I think it's healthy to have the co-equal branches of government, you know, sometimes butt heads as long as they're doing it respectfully and professionally and honorably. So I'm not troubled by it at all. So, for example, when the Department of Justice said, hey, Chairman Thompson, we kind of like those thousand interviews. We'd like those thousand transcripts because that's going to help inform our criminal investigation. And Representative Thompson,

appropriately, in my estimation, said, you know what? They're ours. We're about to launch public hearings. And I'm reading between the lines, you'll get them when you get them. Now, if I were Representative Thompson, I would also say, by the way, where's the subpoena for them? Because then there's some legal cover if the J6 committee turns over its work product. And we won't go into what actually constitutes work product.

But I would require a subpoena because that is the legal process by which I think one branch of government should request and receive information from another, at least sometimes. So, yeah, I think this is healthy. And I think both Congress and the executive branch understand what's at stake here. And I do think they're going to move forward together as much as they can. Former federal prosecutor Harry Littman has told us that the star witness that we all need to be looking for during these hearings is former Trump aide and Meadows advisor Cassidy Hutchinson. Do you agree with that sentiment? Do you agree that she will have some bombshell testimony that the public needs to hear?

She's important, but I don't think there's a star witness. I think Donald Trump will be the star of the show, though he won't testify, because we are going to hear in vivid and grotesque detail what he did to attack our democracy, what he did, you know, either that was either designed to hurt Mike Pence or, you know, Mike Pence was collateral damage and he could care less about what happened to Mike Pence. If it meant him retaining power unlawfully, unconstitutionally, he was all in. So, yes, Cassidy Hutchinson will

be important because she heard lots of things Mark Meadows said. For example, it was attributed to her that Mark Meadows comes out of the Oval Office or the White House dining room, I forget which, and said, Donald Trump just said maybe Mike Pence should be hanged. That's important testimony. And, you know, Mark Meadows is an absolute lying, you know what, because he won't admit to anything in his zeal to continue to cover up Donald Trump's crimes. So he's got a world of hurt coming. But I think, you know, here's what I'm so heartened by. And I don't know if I've talked to you all about this. The J6 investigative team headed up by Chief Counsel, Chief Investigative Counsel, Tim Heafey. Tim and I started at the

DC U.S. Attorney's Office together. We handle the same RICO cases together. He's one of the best RICO prosecutors the Department of Justice has ever had. And we have other former, there are tons of former federal prosecutors on the J6 investigative team that have been running this since jump. That's why what we see coming out of the J6 press releases, it all looks like a RICO investigation being conducted to me. That's because it's being conducted by one of our best RICO prosecutors ever. And that's why I think Jamie Raskin is absolutely right when he says they are about to blow the roof off the house. Yeah. And that's one of the things that I've noticed. Like

you have Jamie Raskin very much not afraid to hype these hearings, which I think speaks volumes. And then Liz Cheney this weekend said that it's an extremely broad, extremely well-organized, chilling conspiracy. I'm paraphrasing here. So what do you make of all those kind of statements like that? Like they're just not afraid to just, you know, hype up the event. This is a serious, sober group of lawmakers, the members of the J6 committee. And I think Cheney and Kinzinger will go down as, you know, heroic figures, as will Representative Thompson and Raskin and the other members. I don't want to sort of just give the Republicans the credit, but I think it's really important that Cheney and Kinzinger are on this bipartisan committee. And she is fierce and fearless. And I saw

her appearance where she said this was an extremely well-coordinated coup by Donald Trump and his allies. So, yeah, I don't think any of this is hyperbole. I think, if anything, we're going to be even more surprised when we see the evidence with our own eyes. That's going to make all the difference. And here is what I envision happening. When we see witnesses testify and documents and evidence produced and phone records analyzed and video and maybe even undercover recordings, don't ever rule that out. That proves beyond a reasonable doubt that Donald Trump and company committed these crimes against the United States. I believe the public outcry will be deafening, and I think it will impact the Department of Justice, who will have nowhere to go. Not that they're looking to avoid prosecuting Trump and company. I don't believe they're avoiding it. I think they're trying to build a bulletproof case

in a way that's taking too long. They're going to have to, have to start dropping indictments on the heads of these people, because if they don't, the DOJ will lose all of its legitimacy. What do you think needs to happen in order for these hearings to be considered a success? If we were to have you back on the show a couple of months from now and we go, were those hearings successful? How do we define success in that regard? Oh, it's just telling a complete, vivid, compelling story about what the evidence is of Trump and his co-conspirators efforts to kill our democracy, to overturn a free and fair presidential election. I think that's what we hope for. And I hope it inspires DOJ. I don't think DOJ needs to wait for criminal referrals from the J6 committee. I think they're already dug in doing their grand jury investigation. And, you know, I have a feeling we're

going to begin to see some indictments dropping on, you know, not Trump, he'll be the last to be indicted, but on some of the higher ups in the executive branch, some of the command structure of the insurrection. I think we're going to see those indictments beginning to come pretty promptly after the hearings and maybe even while the hearings are ongoing because they're going to span some six weeks, I guess. And do you think the January 6th committee is going to go ahead and refer an indictment for Trump ultimately, or will they let the Justice Department just handle that on their own? They can't not refer him for prosecution if the evidence is as dramatic and direct and devastating as we expect it to be. You can't forego making a criminal referral because that's part of what

they're doing right now. The lion's share is legislative. Yes, we want laws to try to prevent this from ever recurring, but they have a responsibility to refer for prosecution anybody that they have evidence committed a crime. I don't get half the country to care about these hearings coming up. I feel like the nation right now is so divided, right? You got a lot of Fox News watchers out there, for example, and Fox News is going to counter about these hearings coming up. I feel like the nation right now is so divided, right? You got a lot of Fox News watchers out there, for example, and Fox News is going to counter program these hearings. I mean, how do we really break through the clutter? Is it making sure that we show up on all social platforms? How do we speak to that Fox News voter and let them know to listen to this month's hearings? So let me start with, it really doesn't matter

if we break through or not. There are some things that you have to do because they're the right thing to do. Consequences be damned. You know, winning over converts be damned. You know, when people say, well, we shouldn't prosecute Trump because we can't impanel a fair and impartial jury. First of all, I disagree. But second of all, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter.

The process is more important than the outcome. And if we don't engage in a process designed to shed light on what was done to our democracy and try to prevent it from happening again, because we fear we won't be completely successful at the end of the day, then we've already failed. Right. So winning converts would be wonderful. And I think, you know, one of the best things that we can all do is have a one-on-one conversation with folk who are maybe in the Donald Trump camp. You know, now, if you're not willing to operate from the same set of facts, then it's really hard to break through with the consequences of those facts with reason and logic. But it doesn't mean we shouldn't try. I mean, I don't use the words MAGA and MAGIT and all that. You know, it's not us and them in America. It's really, we're just us.

We're just different kinds of us who believe in different things. But I do believe there are a lot of folk who believe in things because they're fed disinformation and not to be unkind, but a lot of them don't have the critical thinking abilities to parse through it. And here's the thing. I mean, I'm not saying I'll ever take up for an insurrectionist, but for gosh sakes, if you don't have the capacity to critically think about what the president of the United States is telling you. And he tells you your your vote was stolen. Your president's being taken from you. If you don't fight like hell, you won't have a country anymore. Now go down to the Capitol and stop the steal. Stop the certification. Insurrectionists are showing up in court every day saying, what the? I was doing what the president told me.

I actually have sympathy for the people who got duped, particularly the ones who maybe don't have it in them to assimilate information from lots of sources and make their own decision. Frankly, we should be allowed to listen to the president of the United States and make our life decisions accordingly. We should be allowed. But when you elect a con man, it's kind of like all bets are off. And I want to speak to another thing that you sort of hinted at in that response is that there's a lot of doom and gloom Democrats out there that nothing seems to be good enough for them. We could have 20 hearings in this committee. We could have 30 every day of the month. We landed with six. In your opinion, is six enough? I don't know because I don't know what those thousand plus witnesses said. I think six is a lot. And I think the balancing act for the J6 committee is how long can you hold people's attention before they're going to tune out?

I mean, six sounds like as good a number as five or seven to me. So, you know, I think they know what they're doing, particularly because they're unified. All members of the J6 committee are unified in their goal of saving our democracy. So the nice thing is it's not going to be the typical five minutes of a Democratic, of a Democrat and five minutes of a Republican, you know, with their separate agendas, yelling and screaming and trying to, you know, create sound bites that they can use in their reelection campaign. So I think because it's going to be a unified presentation and because the investigation was conducted by an expert team of federal prosecutors and their experts in RICO prosecutions, public corruption prosecutions and violent crime prosecutions, the team they've assembled. I think this is as good as it gets.

You answered my last question on that before I kicked it back over to Ben, which is going to be, are you hopeful? Do you see hope? Do you see us coming out? I have been spitting out the O word recently. Optimistic. I am optimistic. Let me ask you this. I'm also optimistic in what's going on in Fulton County, Georgia right now with the special jury there investigating Trump's phone call with Brad Raffensperger, find me the extra one vote over 11,400, whatever votes, Lindsey Graham's conduct there, and also kind of pushing election officials. You think we should be paying attention to what's going on with Fonny down there,

the district attorney in Fulton County, Fonny Willis? Absolutely. You know, I don't know her personally. Everything I've read about her and the way she's conducted this investigation, again, which has been ongoing for a long time. There are some procedural peculiarities in the Georgia grand jury laws and procedures that seem to be part of the reason it's taking so darn long. But everything I've seen about D.A. Willis, she doesn't play. She just doesn't play. And look, she grand jury. She presented witnesses to the grand jury, all of the witnesses that were willing to come without being subpoenaed, without being compelled. And I think she she presented 30 or more. But then there were another 50 who were, you know, like the Mark Meadows and the Jim Jordans of the world. They're not they're not doing anything voluntarily to help protect our democracy or the security of our election systems or to snitch on Donald Trump. So that's why she had to impanel the special grand jury, because under the rules of the Georgia grand jury, only special grand juries have the power to issue subpoenas and compel reluctant witnesses to appear. And then that information gets batched up and it goes back to the regular grand jury, which has the power to indict. It's

a very cumbersome and somewhat unusual process. She, right after the elections, abiding by the Norman tradition, not doing anything before the election, she issued 50 subpoenas. Brad Raffensperger has already been in there and they wore him out for hours testifying. And now I think five of his aides are appearing this week. She is moving forward. It looks like, you know, justice is kind of slow and steady as she goes down in Georgia. And I am also optimistic that we're going to see an indictment of Donald Trump, perhaps even Lindsey Graham and others. And if you read a brilliant piece by the Brookings Institution doing a deep dive into the Georgia state election crimes that even the publicly available evidence suggests Donald

Trump committed there, I think, I don't know if it's a full dozen or a baker's dozen misdemeanors and felonies alike, a dozen crimes that are supported by the evidence of record that has been publicly reported alone. So if I had to bet a dollar, one dollar is my betting limit. I'm not a high roller. I would bet a dollar that Georgia will indict Donald Trump. I'm not a high roller either. I just like to. I don't like to gamble.

I like to get my facts and I like to argue with the facts. What do you say though, as we conclude this interview, Glenn, what's your response to people who watch you and say, well, that's great that you're optimistic, Glenn Kirshner, but I've heard this before. We've heard, not from you, but we've heard a reason to be optimistic. In the Mueller report, we've heard justice is coming. Why is it different right now? What's your response? So they've heard from me, in fact, that the Mueller report was going to be blockbuster. And for anybody who cares to read the Mueller report, it actually was blockbuster. But it suffered from three problems real quickly. Bob Mueller was still

doing business by 1950s norms and traditions. Now, Bob was my mentor. He was my chief of homicide. He taught me how to be a federal homicide prosecutor, and I have great admiration and even affection for him. But I think I have a clear-eyed perspective of how that played out in the estimation of some what went wrong. You know, he put together a blockbuster volume to documenting 10, as many as 10 felony obstruction of justice crimes by Donald Trump. I believe, Bob believed, that if that was delivered to Congress, it would be like when they delivered the Nixon tapes to Congress and the Republicans marched on the White House and said, Nixon, you're done. I think that was Bob's frame of reference. How could any self-respecting politician not take that position? And he was wrong about that. But it suffered from the added

problem of Bill Barr lying about it to the American people, as was found by Judge Reggie Walton here in D.C. Federal District Court. So the truth never had a chance to get out. Bob Mueller also was not able to communicate because of some physical challenges the way he used to be able to communicate. That was another problem. But I think nobody could have seen just how low the Republicans would sink in their zeal to retain power. And retaining power meant hanging on to the coattails of Donald Trump. So I think it was a series of, you know, really unfortunate incidents that conspired against the Mueller report having the impact it should have had. So what was your question, Ben? What's different now? So what's your question, Ben? What's different now? So what's different now?

I think what's different now is we do not have a bill bar to misdirect the American people or to with at the DC U.S. Attorney's Office, that have our nation's best interests at heart, even if they are a little bit too circumspect and moving too slowly, in my estimation. We have a congressional committee that's lockstep, which is unusual when we're launching into public hearings. It's usually the cats and dogs fighting back and forth. We have an investigative congressional staff, unlike any that I think has ever been put together before. So I think all of, just as there were several things conspiring to basically deprive the Mueller report of the impact it should have had, we have a lot of forces conspiring to make sure that this time it's done right, it's done effectively,

it's done thoroughly, and we save our democracy. So I'm optimistic as we begin to move into these public hearings. Well, that is great to hear. I'm sure our audience really appreciates the background. It's always great having you on the pod, Glenn Kirshner, check him out. His podcast, Justice Matters with Glenn Kirshner. Of course, you see Glenn Kirshner on NBC and MSNBC as their legal analyst. And it's always an incredible honor to have you on the show. Well, thank you, guys. It's great to be with you. We will be right back after these messages.

Welcome back to the Midas Touch podcast. It was great having Glenn Kirschner as a guest. Glenn Kirschner is a legend. I want to thank everybody for listening to the Midas Touch podcast. Thanks to our guest, Glenn Kirschner. Thanks to Athletic Greens, BetterHelp, Upstart, Thuma, our sponsors. Without them, the show isn't possible. So please will you make sure to support our sponsors. I want to

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for listening to this episode of the Midas Touch podcast. I'm Ben, joined by my brothers, Brett and Jordy, fighting for you each and every podcast, each and every day for our democracy. Thank you so much. Happy Pride. Shout out to the Midas Mighty.