The Michael Knowles Show - Ep. 99 - Should We Accept Gay Marriage? ft. Fr. Michael Schmitz

Episode Date: February 5, 2018

Fr. Michael Schmitz, YouTuber and author of "Made For Love: Same-Sex Attraction and the Catholic Church" joins Michael to discuss: should conservatives embrace gay marriage? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

There's a lot going on in the news, and we are not going to talk about any of it. We're going to talk about a more important question. Should conservatives accept and embrace gay marriage? Do conservatives need to embrace gay marriage to survive? We will speak to YouTube star and the author of Made for Love, Same Sex Attractions and the Catholic Church, Father Michael Schmitz. We will discuss what has become one of the central preoccupations of our age, even though it only affects a relatively small number of Americans.

We will discuss a whole range of subjects with regard to sexual morality and the question of same-sex marriage and decide once and for all what the GOP and conservative should do. I am Michael Knowles and this is the Michael Knowles Jew. In 2001, Americans opposed monogamous same-sex unions, opposed including those in the definition of marriage by a margin of 57% to 35%. By 2017, those numbers had more than flipped to 62% supporting same-sex men. marriage and 32% opposing it. 56% of baby boomers support same-sex marriage. I think around 150 million percent of millennials support it. Even 41% of the greatest generation, the silent generation, support same-sex marriage.

The leading demographics supporting same-sex marriage are the religiously unaffiliated, the so-called nuns who support same-sex marriage at a rate of a shocking 85%. Two-thirds of mainline Protestants now support same-sex marriage, but those guys will believe anything. You know, they're wrong on a number of things. Mainline Protestantism is basically just a country club, I think, at this point. Leading the opposition to same-sex marriage are white evangelical Protestants, with only 35% of them approving it,

though that number did rise eight percentage points from 27% in just one year. Incredibly, two-thirds of Catholics whose pontiff calls gay marriage, quote, A machination of the father of lies who seeks to deceive and confuse the children of God support same-sex marriage. 73% of Democrats and 70% of independence support it, while even 40% of Republicans support same-sex marriage, nearly doubling over the past decade. In 2001, one-third of both blacks and whites supported same-sex marriage. Today, two-thirds of whites and half of black Americans support it.

Women are more likely than men to support same-sex marriage, though both the numbers, they're high for both. 64% for women and 60% for men. sweet little Lisa is indicative of this gender divide. She has been encouraging me to get a gay marriage for years so that she can finally get away and be free. Understandable. How do we explain this marriage shift on the question of same-sex marriage? To help us answer that, we are joined by Father Michael Schmitz.

And before we get to Father Schmitz, who has a wonderful new book out and a lot to say, I have got to talk to you about a very important thing that keeps our lights on. This is ZipRecruiter. If you're hiring, let me tell you something. We have learned this the hard way at the Daily Wire. The way that we hire people is that we go to the sidewalk in front of the insane asylum

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Thanks, Michael. I, right off the bat, I have to apologize that I do not have my hot or cold leftist tears mug. I just have a DC comics. I'm sorry. Right out of the gate. I'm sorry for you. It's okay. Obviously, you know, you can probably enjoy them in just about any vessel. They are always delicious. But this is the only one that's FDA approved to maintain those leftist tears, hot or cold, always salty and delicious. So we'll have to get one out to you right now. in the, just to protect your health, protect the rectory from the fallout, absolutely. Right. You don't want, you don't want them to go bad. That's right. You never, oh, they never go bad. They're all, oh, they stay great forever and ever.

So for those of you who don't know Father Schmitz, he has a great YouTube channel. I think it is fair to say, Father Schmitz, you are the most prominent YouTube star among the Catholic clergy. You're at least up there. I don't know. Bishop Barron is pretty big. Bishop Barham is big. Father Rutler has some great videos online. But Father Schmidt's channel, Ascension Presents, has been viewed by over 11 million viewers. He has a new book out from Ignatius, made for love, same-sex attraction, and the Catholic Church. So, Father Schmitz, to begin, there are examples we are always told in classical antiquity of same-sex unions and even unions that resemble marriage.

The Roman emperor Nero apparently sort of married a young boy, Sporus, after the death of his first two wives. He made his boy, bride, dress up like a lady at public events, so Wikipedia tells me. Now, of course, Nero did it is not exactly an endorsement. Right, you all have to marry a horse. Yeah, right. There's that. Yeah, there were a lot of strange activities that were going on, not exactly a guidepost. For the history of the Christian West, marriage has had a clear meaning, the union of man and woman.

This has been a consensus in the West for millennia. And now we think it's the opposite. Now that that public opinion has switched so quickly, what has caused it to flip within just a few years? Well, I think there's a number of factors. You don't even have to. I don't think you even have to appeal to any kind of, like, religious idea. I think you just, once we disconnect from a real sense of, I guess,

rationality, once we disconnect from reason, and once we actually, I think, I think in some ways, embrace a scientific, not scientific, scientific is great, scientific worldview where we can just, where the world is endlessly manipulative or manipulative that we can basically redefine everything. So it basically comes from a thing called, like you might call nominalism, where if you name a thing, that thing, then it just becomes that thing. But there's no such thing as a true nature of a thing, right? So that now I just use the word thing a thousand times in the last two sentences. But I always ask people, okay, if you want

to redefine marriage first, just define it. And blank, blank, blank spaces, blank stares back. Because it's like, well, when you really love someone. Well, okay, that's a good question or that's a good point. I really love my brother, my sister. Is that marriage? Like, no, no, no, it's when you love someone and you're committed to them. Like, okay, well, what if I love my nephew and I'm really committed to him?

I just want to see him do well. He's my godson. I want to see him do well. is that the same thing? You know, it's when you love someone, you're committed to each other, and you really help each other flourish. Well, right up the road from here,

there's a convent of nuns, and they love each other, they're committed, and they help each other flourish. It's that marriage. So, like, I think before we even, I mean, it's basically anti-reason to try to redefine something

that you don't know the definition in the first place. I know that is such a good point. I notice that they do this, and I think that it is a real strategy of the left. I think it's well thought out because I actually see Donald Trump using it very effectively on other issues. Donald Trump says, we are going to

build the wall and Mexico is going to pay for it. And so we all start arguing about who's going to pay for the wall. Is it going to be Mexico? Is it going to be the taxpayers? And he's gotten us to slide right past his premise, which is the actually contentious question, are we going to build the wall? It's the same thing with marriage. The left seems to have blown right past the debate over what marriage is and the definition of it into who has the right to get married. So now we're arguing over civil rights, and of course if it's a question of civil rights, everybody is going to get that right. But that first question is what is marriage? And the left is insisting now that it is monogamous same-sex unions, but for some reason not polygamous same-sex unions.

Those have been excluded from the new definition of marriage. So on the question of what is marriage, why is it so important that marriage be the union of man and woman? Yeah, I think that from the foundation of civilization, you recognize that the essential building block of any community. I mean, from the smallest tribe to the largest nation, the building block, the essential building block is marriage and family. Why? Because we have a lot of organizations, right? We have a lot of people who are loosely committed to each other, but in no other relationship, do offspring happen? And right, and so that sense of like, so there's no propagation of the species for human beings, at least, outside of this particular kind of relationship. Yeah, you can maybe farm it out to the state. You could give it to the, you know, the whole village to raise the child.

But the village doesn't create the child and the village doesn't provide a stable environment for that child. The only reason why the state cares about marriage in the first place, like why we have tax benefits, why we have some perks for those who are married is because we say, okay, it's not because we believe. even love so much that we just want to support you kids and make it want you to make it in this crazy world it's because you two kids are going to probably have more kids we want to make sure that those children are taking care of and so why is it so important because we're messing with the we're really messing in a way that we've never experienced before I think as a species with this undefinition I wouldn't even say it's a redefinition marriage It's an undefinition of the most essential building block of a society.

And so then you think about this. What happens if you try to build with materials that have never been tested before? You wouldn't. You wouldn't build any structure that was solid. You wouldn't be able to build any structure that you could rely on because you don't even know if the materials are going to work. And I think this is a really dangerous experiment that we're in the middle of here in our culture. And they say so often I find. this to be the case on essential first principles sort of political issues. I think that I understand

the left's point of view, but I don't think that they understand our point of view. And very frequently, they say, they mock people on the right or the religious right, and they say, they say that we say, you know, it was Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. And they refer to Genesis as some children's fable that has no meaning. Meanwhile, Genesis is perhaps the most profound text ever composed. by human hands, now what they say is that if children are this central aspect, the ability, the potential to create children, which is not to say that a couple who is infertile, you know, a woman who has difficulty conceiving or whatever, doesn't mean to exclude them from it, but excluding even the possibility, the logical possibility,

we now have, for instance, single parents who are able to adopt, and we now have, So in that case, the question of children seems to be a little tangential. We know that gay people, people with same-sex attraction, can adopt as they are single. So now, if they are in a same-sex union, certainly they could continue to adopt. They say, well, marriage has been so undefined already. They say, for instance, that divorce has skyrocketed in modern years, although the rate has actually come down recently. How do you respond to people who say marriage has already been undefined? Who cares if we add a little bit more to that?

right well i think that it's kind of like a well i guess that titanic is already sinking and so we might as well just you know play our instruments and go down with the ship right shoot some holes in the side of it exactly i mean look the iceberg did that why don't i just you know um jump overboard and it's right into the ocean i would say that i think there's something worth establishing and i would not deny the fact that um like heterosexual marriage is falling apart or people you know kind of having no fault divorce that at you know when that was proposed we probably as a as people who care about our country people who care about our culture we probably should have been a little bit more wary and a little bit more cautious and moving forward with that and could because we now we see the fall out we we see

how this really has affected children being raised by in i mean even though children can say i love both of my parents in them getting divorced that's good that they love them still but they're they've been affected by this. And so to say, like, we should have, we should have been stronger. Why not now say, let's get stronger rather than let's just keep being weak? So I think, yes, there's a sense of like, let's define this rather than undefine it. And let's actually help like marriages become better, not just say you can't have this to, you know, a gay couple or a lesbian couple. I think it's really important. And I don't see it with people who are in my generation. I don't think that they have the in for a penny, infre a pound attitude. I know. I know.

I noticed that all of my friends, everyone in our generation, our parents were divorced. It just happened to our parents' generation. And I notice now people are much more careful about marriage. And they seem to be, obviously, the plural of anecdote isn't data. But we do know the trends are declining, the divorce rates. And just talking to friends of mine, regardless of their political views, they'll say, yeah, I really don't want to get divorced. I'm really trying not to get divorced.

I think that wasn't a good experience and I don't want to do it myself. I would like to ask you a bit about the theology of the body. And by the way, guys, this is where things are going to get real saucy. But before we get to the theology of the body, we have to talk about a much more important thing than all of these essential moral questions. We have to talk about toothbrushes. We have to talk about quip. This is important. Just as we keep our moral lives clean and our, you know, we keep our ethical systems clean, so too must we clean our teeth.

And quip is the new electric toothbrush that packs just the right amount of vibrations into a slimmer design. at a fraction of the cost of bulkier traditional electric brushes. Now, I will say this. This is a little bit of an admission. I didn't go to the dentist for probably five or seven years. Because I'm a man, and so I don't think about these things. I don't care. I don't make doctor's appointments.

I also didn't go see the doctor for a long time. Then I got engaged, and sweet little Elisa just took over my life and made all of these appointments for me and said, if we're getting married, you're getting checked out, pal. So I go to the dentist. And he excoriated me for several minutes over not using an electric toothbrush. Apparently, this is a new invention, and they made it for a reason. It's much more effective than using regular, I don't know, I usually brush with a stick or something.

I pull a branch off a tree outside of my window. Electric toothbrush is much better because it just gives you all of those vibrations and brushes much faster than you possibly could with your own hand. So the guiding pulses alert you when to switch sides on quip. makes the brushing the right amount of time effortless. Quip also comes with a mount that suction right to your mirror and unsticks to use as a cover for hygienic travel anywhere. I have it just right on my mirror right now.

So it can go in your gym gag or your carry-on and you don't need to be disgusting like me and just throw it in whatever, the back of your car or whatever. Because the thing that cleans your mouth should also be clean, Quip's subscription plan refreshes your brush on a dentist's recommended schedule, delivering new brushheads every three months for just $5.

This is the other thing. I know it sounds like I'm just talking to the guys, but it's because we're so lazy about these things. If I were not told to do it, I would not replace my toothbrush more than once every 15 to 18 years. I just wouldn't do it. It would be all mangled and all the little bristles are coming out.

Probably new bristles are growing on the other side of it. You need to replace your toothbrush. It's very important. It will just make your teeth smile, especially, look, these days with new media, everybody can be a star, can go on YouTube. So you've got to have those pearly whites. This is the moneymaker baby. Don't cheap out on yourself. So most toothbrushes don't get named one of Time Magazine's best

inventions of the year, but Quip did. Find out for yourself why. It's backed by a network of over 10,000 dental professionals, including dentists, hygienists, dental students, and people who have teeth like me. I also think it's a great product. It starts at just $25. And if you go to Quip, I'm sorry, if you go to getquip.com slash Knowles, K-N-O-W-L-E-E-E-E, just like Jay Z's wife, right now you will get your first refill pack free with a quip electric toothbrush. And that is a great thing. That is your first refill pack is free at get quip.com slash knolls, KNOWLES. That is G-E-T, Q-U-I-P dot com slash knolls. What's the URL, Marshall? Get quip.com slash nulls. Okay. Now that we've talked about our teeth, it's time to get into

the theology of the body. The theology of the body tells us something about our mouth, too. The theology of the body tells us that just does our mouths have a purpose to eat food and our eyes have a purpose? So too do our sexual organs have a purpose? And in spite of the bizarre things that each and every one of us wants to do to some degree with those organs, we should use them in accordance with that purpose. But my question, father, is should we use them only in accordance with that purpose? So my mouth is for eating, but I also use it to smoke cigars. as did Pope's Pius the 10th and Pius the 11th.

Even a saint did this, Pope St. John the 23rd also smoked. Similarly, the central unit of human life is the union of husband and wife. It's an image of Christ and his church, the bridegroom and the bride. But can other arrangements ever be permissible? Or is tobacco different? Because the body is a temple and the temple needs incense, rather than the imaginative uses of the sexual organs that we talk about so frequently in our culture today. Great, great question. And actually, I think that, also, I love the incense idea in the temple of the Holy Spirit. That's good. I haven't heard that one yet.

This, I think, is my only contribution to theology. I think that's the lone bit. I have some students who have asked me to bless their cigarettes so they could have holy smokes. And I'm like, I don't know, dude. I don't know. Maybe in a papal conclave, you could use it? I don't know. Well, it's cool white smoke, I guess, you know, going up. You know, it's funny because I did the debate with, with a man. He teaches theology and we were debating same-sex marriage. In the course of the debate, he said something that was really profound. It just stopped me. He said, well, I'm not defined by my biology. And I remember just thinking like, wow, wow, like I must have this look on my face that the moderator of the debate recognized that I don't have a very good poker face. I was like,

wow, this is, she said, Father Schmidt, do you have something to say? And I said, yeah, I realize we're not just right here in this, in this moment, we weren't talking just about, um, marriage, we weren't talking about sexual morality. We weren't even talking about morality. What we would have all came down to was a worldview. And the worldview is either Gnosticism or it's basically a in fleshed materialism or in soul materialism. And what I mean by that is like so the Gnostics would or manichies would say that the body's bad. The body's not you.

You are truly your soul. Whereas as Christians in the Christian worldview, we'd say no body and soul together. And so, like, it was remarkable that this person was admitting that, that, because they're a theology teacher at a Catholic school, they were saying, like, no, I'm basically, I'm not my body. I'm not my body. I'm just my spirit or something. Yeah, my spirit, my soul, my psyche, whatever. And that's a really profound shift in this world, because I think if we're going to have a debate about any morality issues, any sexuality issues or any just, like, issues that pertain to what we do with our bodies, it's all going to come down. to with a question are you your body or not is your body just a shell is just a case is it just but the true you is somewhat kind of uh ephemeral and disconnected from your body so you mentioned theology of body which is a term that was it came out of john paul the second pontificate his teaching um and in that he said the body and it alone is capable of making visible the invisible the spiritual

and the divine because if you think about this we've never we've never learned anything outside of our body. Everything you and I have learned has been through our body, like through our eyes. We read something or saw something, through our ears, we heard something, we felt something. We've never expressed love except in and through our bodies. We've never expressed disgust in and except in and through our bodies. So this reality is we've never known anyone without a body. And yet there's this kind of worldview that says, but no, no, but what I do with my body

doesn't really matter because it doesn't touch my soul. And so that's truly ultimately when it comes down to is, again, Nazism or Manichism. So our starting point has to be, okay, are you your body and full together or not? Because if you're not, then we're going to have to figure another way to talk about these things. If you are, then I think we can address the question you brought up, which is a really good question, which is do things have a nature? And is that nature fixed or is that nature determined by how we want to use it?

And so what I would say is I always like to have the, ask the question, we get the idea of a thing's nature, the what it isness of a thing by asking the question, what is it for. Right. So we know what a chair is because we know the what it's for in us of a chair to sit on. And we have the what it isness of a table when we ask the what it's for in it, okay, to set things on. Right. The what it isness of the Michael Null shows to spread cofefefe to spread cofefe. FAA galore to all of the world, of course. Yes. And now you know what it's for on us, and now you know the nature.

And so the question is, can I take something about the what it's forerness and use it to my own end? And the answer, of course, is yes, right? So I can take the chair I'm sitting on and I can set something on it. And I'm not violating the nature or the what it's foreness of the chair.

And I could, on this solid table I've got, I could sit on it, and I'm not violating the what it's foreness to set things on of the table. But there are some things we can do that actually do violate the what it's for ness. For example, I couldn't take this chair I'm sitting on and put a tree trunk and

split wood on it. I'd pretty quickly violate the nature of the chair. And the same thing is true when it comes to our bodies. If the premise, we are our bodies, then there's what is what is forness. So let's look at the sexual act. If you had a scientist who asked the question, what it's for, what is it for, you'd see at least two things. And the two primary things that are there at every, every sexual act.

There's procreation. That's what it's for. And bonding of the couple, that's what it's for. And when you see this on a biological level, both of the things on the biological level, we're not even talking about religion at this point. We're saying that, no, there are bonding hormones to get released when people enter into the sexual embrace. So that's what it's for in it, yeah, it's for bonding.

And also, it's the only action we know of that's oriented towards making new life. So what it's foreign is is procreation. So does that mean that every single act has to be to have a child or every single act has to be for bonding? Well, we recognize that. I'm sure that, you know, you might know couples like who do like, who have been in the situation where they're trying to conceive. And so they might say, okay, so she's like, I'm obviating right now. Let's go. That might not be specifically for bonding.

It's not the most romantic way to start an encounter, certainly. Hey, it's the clock's ticking, buddy. Let's go. Get in there. You got him. But not for bonding, but they're not violating bonding, right? And by doing this, because they're both entering into this, as we imagine a husband and wife. Or you'd have a couple that, you know, they're not specifically intending to have a child come out of this, but they're not working against this.

They just simply are, we want to express our love for one another. But they're not working against the openness to life. In those cases, they'd be using this for a sort of. certain purpose, but not using it contrary to its nature. And that's the big question. Because what we recognize is if I use a thing against its nature or try to work against the nature or the what it's foreign of a thing, that's when things begin to break down. This is the very difficult, oh, I'm sorry, go ahead. No, no. I've used my own purpose, but if I can't extend that out to any purpose and not expecting the nature to break down. That's a wonderful explanation. And this aspect,

the unitive aspect, I think, is what's so difficult in a culture that is obsessed with the erotic. So the Christian answer to same-sex attraction, as you explain in the book, is celibacy and chastity, to which we're all called, but for people with same-sex attractions, that obviously results in celibacy. Of course, that answer is easier said than done. We're all called to be chased, but as a former Manichean who became a great saint, St. Augustine said, Lord make me chased, but not yet. But not yet. Doesn't the call for people who are exclusively attracted to members of the same sex exclude them

from erotic love, one of the great consolations of life, so I'm told, is that burden not too immense in a sex-obsessed culture such as ours that places so high of value on the erotic? That's a great question because I love how you phrased it. because we frame it in a sex-obsessed culture. And so what makes things more difficult, I think, is the fact that we've reduced everything. Like all the greatest. So John Paul II, again, this theology of the body, he said, he said, man cannot live without love.

Without love, man remains a being incomprehensible to himself. He's a mystery to himself if he doesn't experience love. Now, we hear that, we think that it's the Pope talking about, because what we've taken is this big concept of love, and we've reduced it to romantic love. Then we've taken this concept of the romantic love and reduced it to sex. So what it sounds like the Pope is saying is, man cannot live without sex. Without sex, he remains of being incomprehensible to himself. His life is senseless unless he has sex.

And yet, the great minds and the great hearts, the great lives of history have said, yeah, eras, you know, romantic love or erotic love, is a good. And we would, as Catholic Christians, we would say, exactly, it's a good. But it's not even the greatest love. Because I love, I really like C.S. Louis. He's one of my guys. He's, I believe Tolkien referred to him as his heretic friend, and he is, I do love C.S. Louis. I love the man.

I devour him regularly. Seriously. So in the four loves, he talks about these four kinds of love. Eros, he's always Storget, which is your affection. Eros, which is the romantic love. And then he says, but there's Philea. And Philea is not just Storke like buddyness, but is true friendship. And he says, he maintains it to make you a great case for.

it, that Philea is even more rare, therefore more precious, and even more life-giving than Eros, which is why, probably, I imagine that you're, as you're preparing to get married, that you'd be saying, like, I'm not just in love with her. She's also my best friend. This is, you hear this all the time. I'm marrying my best friend. And I always, whenever my fiance says this, I always try to temper this, because I agree with you. I say, you know, friendship is so rare these days. And I, I'm blessed to have a number of friendships that I think rise to this level of great friendship, of true friendship, not just, you know, seeing your buddies and catching a baseball game or something,

but real friendship standing alongside one another and looking at the same thing. And so when, but one of which does include my fiance, but I always say, well, you know, my best, final best buddy. What are we going to go to the bar together? I don't know. But my best female friend. That's right. Yes, she is certainly my best female friend.

But you hear this so much, and it seems to me, when people say I'm marrying my best friend, they are aspiring to this sort of friendship, this philia, that has been lost, that ancient cultures and even really just the pre-modern recognized and spoke so highly of. And that really seems to be lacking because all our culture wants to talk about are saucier things than that. Absolutely. And so in that culture, right, where true friendship is like, well, I guess it's a consolation. It's consolation prize. Maybe you have a true friend, but what you really want is a lover, yes, it is more difficult. But I would say that, I mean, there's a number of ministries. There's even a group in the Catholic Church called Courage. And courage is many women who experience antit distraction are saying, but we know the call of Jesus.

We know the call to be chased that it's difficult, but it's not impossible. And I know, I mean, dozens and dozens just personally and hundreds to hundreds that I've encountered. who are living really healthy, holy, rich lives because experiencing same-s abstraction is not a death sentence. I think sometimes people think that that's the case if you're going to be Catholic or if you're going to be Christian that's like, yeah, well, too bad to be you, man. You're going to have a terrible life.

It's never, yeah. It's going to be something that's going to be difficult, but every one of us has something difficult that we have to deal with, and we're going to wrestle with our entire lives, that sometimes it opens up doors for us and opportunities, and sometimes it just makes life really difficult. But like the people that I've encountered who have safe sex attraction,

who also are saying, but no, I'm called to be chased, and so I know what that means, are living really, really full lives with true friendship. And that's not something, I mean, I think if most people knew what true friendship really was or really is, they would say, oh, wow, that's a blessed life, not a cursed life. That's interesting.

That is one of the jokes. Sometimes you hear among guys who like to go to the cigar bar and have some whiskeys and smoke cigars, you say, well, without the erotic component, being gay wouldn't be so bad. You know, there's something, the erotic component doesn't sound great, but other than that, it's a pretty good time. There is so much more that I'd like to talk about. I'd like to get a little bit more into the political aspects of all of this and into the question of sexual identity, why the left is so obsessed with making the sexes seem exactly the

same in this question of trans sexuality, which affects like five people on earth, but which has become the number one political topic we've talked about. But I can't do any of that right now. I can't do any of that because we have got to talk about something very manly. This, I think, is a providential ad read that we have speaking of the male sex. Man crates. Man crates, not only do these guys, let us keep the lights on, but they are really good. I think I have two of my man crates products just on me right here, because I just got a new man crate. And let me see if I can dig it out.

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We will be right back with more from Father Schmitz. Okay, on the real political nature of this lobby, I think this lobby that tries to make our culture talk about sex and sexual issues all the time, it seems to me that the issue of same-sex marriage is part and parcel of a. feminist ideology that ironically seeks to erase all gender difference. So the premise of same-sex marriage seems to be that men and women are exactly the same, that there isn't sexual difference. Because very basically, if M plus W equals M plus M equals W plus W, then M equals W. They're the same thing, rather than being complimentary. Why does the left want to erase sexual difference?

It's a great question. I, you know, like you had said earlier, I can understand the, I often find that I feel like, or I believe that I can understand the perspective and the ideology or the thought process of people who say, I want to advocate for same-sex marriage, I want to advocate for transgenderism. I think I get the argument. But when it comes to this, like, why? When he asked the question, but why, then I don't. then at this point I'm thinking like, what's the ulterior or ultimate end? It kind of, it eludes me because it seems like the ultimate conclusion is a very, very different culture than we have. One that does not necessarily flourish, but one that kind of just is everything's up for grabs.

And so when it comes to a lot of the motivations of people who would advocate for like things like marriage or would advocate for like trying to kind of advocate. dating transgender stuff is it seems like what I, talking with some high schoolers asking them about this, the response was like, well, I don't know, I just, I just feel bad that they can't get married. Oh, well, that's it. And so I think that there might be some people who are like kind of the masterminds. I have no idea who they would be. But I think at the, at the core, the reason why the tide has shifted so quickly is because we've abandoned thinking and we've given it all over to a feeling, to emotions. And so the reason, quote unquote, reason why the tide has shifted so much is because we've abandoned reason.

And we're just saying, well, I just, I feel bad. It makes me feel sad to think that someone would feel sad. And, of course, you know, you and I, we don't want to make people unnecessarily bad or want to make, put undue, like, suffering in their lives. But that's not the same thing as saying, well, but is it so? like you know so here's a person who um would uh say i don't i'm in a man's body but i've always felt like a woman well first of all i have to ask the question how do you know right meaning like how do you know what a woman feels like i i don't like playing baseball at football like okay that's that's a stereotype right there i'm not the series i'm not i'm not going to advocate a stereotype if you're a man

who doesn't uh embrace a lot of masculine things like you don't want your man create or whatever that's like that's well that's unforgivable that i believe is actually an unforgivable seen in the scripture. I have to refresh it. Yeah. I apologize. But like that sense of like someone, I bet I feel like woman. How do you know what a woman feels like? And therefore, all you know is what you feel like, which is I feel disconnected from my body. Now, I, for my part, I have emotion. I have a compassion for that. And I have pity on that. But the answer I don't think is to say, oh, in that case, you must not be a man. Right. I mean, I don't know. I'm sure you've experienced, or not experienced, but you've encountered this condition called B-I-I-D, which is body integrity, identity

disorder. And what B-I-I-D is is a real thing where people will say things like, this isn't my hand. I've always felt like this is really part of me. And so they would go in to say the surgeon and say, could you amputate? Why? It's perfectly healthy. But it's not my hand. And now the medical community has universally said, no, don't do that.

Because why? Because that is their hand. and the problem is not the hand. The problem is there's a disconnect between their perception and reality. But when it comes to transgenderism, when it comes to sex, it seems like we just forget common sense. And so if someone who say this is in my hand, no, no, no, that really is.

You're just mistaken. Let's help you get to a place where you can make that, like, bring it together. But someone says, these aren't my genitals. You're like, wait, wait, well, then have surgery. Let's get rid of those. Well, we have to get rid of those. That's a different kind of organ. It doesn't seem to make sense.

Of course. And this issue of transgender does seem to be one where people are suffering. That sounds like a terrible condition. And I certainly feel for people who have it. But they seem to be looking for relief in all of the wrong places. The pioneers at Johns Hopkins, who began the gender mutilation surgery, have stopped doing it. because they realized that even the suicide rates of people who suffer from this did not decrease after surgery. So even the operation that everyone expected to give relief to this condition

didn't quite do it. And this does seem to be the real issue because I always fear for, when we're talking about this issue, people didn't choose to be born attracted to members of the same sex. I don't think. I don't think anyone ever said yes, today I'm going to do that. And that is a really sad condition if one looks at a traditional Christian view of things or a Jewish view of things or any other traditional sexual ethic. And they say, I'm excluded from this. And I really wish I weren't excluded from erotic love or from pursuing my sexual desires. And I think a lot of the time Christians and the Catholic Church in particular are called

haters on this. They just, they think that we just hate gay people and we don't want them to be happy. When really what we're saying is this isn't a normative statement, it's a positive statement that this is not what marriage is. How do you respond to the accusations of hatred and bigotry? You know, it seems to me that it's similar to saying, I like apples, but I won't call an apple an orange, this question of gay marriage. And they say, well, why do you hate oranges? And I don't hate it. I like oranges very much. I want oranges to thrive. I like orange juice. I'm probably screwing up the metaphor somewhere here, but I don't hate oranges. I just think that apples are not oranges. How do you respond to those

accusations of hatred? Yeah, I would say at least two things. One is, I remember someone very, very close to me when he came out of it, came out to me. He wanted me to watch a video. So I watched this kind of a documentary. It was made by a man who had to run. relationship with another man and uh it's and tragically where the other man dies uh true story and um he said i want you to watch this because one guy said when i came out to my parents and introduced him to Shane what's the man's name um my nieces nephews called him uncle Shane and my whole family loved him and it was it was great but then when Shane told his family about me they said if you two ever show up on our front door you'll be met at the door with a shotgun and i remember came showing me

this this video and uh like i'm thinking like what what what does he want like you know so it video ends and he says What do you think? And I said, are those my only two choices? Like, because that sense of like, is it I'm going to have to embrace and agree and celebrate everything you choose? Or I hate you? Yeah. Yeah, because like

I don't like either of those. And it was funny because I probably am not closer to another human being on this planet that I am to him. I love him very, very much. His dad even said something interesting. His dad said no good parent agrees with every decision their child makes. Because that's not a real relationship.

Some parents do, but no good parent does. That's not a real relationship. Is it where I can't disagree with you? And you can't disagree with me because I have to just always celebrate every choice you make. No, I don't maintain that anyone would choose to, you know, feel transgender or to choose to experience any distraction. And so I'm not saying that. I'm saying choose to act on something.

And I think that when it comes to being, you know, accused of being hate. haters, the church or Christians or wherever, I need to be really, really clear about like, no, no, no, no, no, no. We love this person. It's actually, so this, this man, back in 2012, we had a gay marriage debate in Minnesota. And so there was all these lawn signs all over the place. And so there was, you know, redefined marriage and some keep the marriage defined well. And I remember this man had come over with his partner at the time to the house. And everyone in the house just absolutely loved the two.

of them because they're great guys. And we just, of course, I mean, you know what we believe, you know, when we know what you believe, but we're going to love you. And it was so interesting because as they drove away, they saw the lawn, the yard sign. And the one said to the other, said, wait a second, I'm just so confused. Why? Because they loved us. Yeah, but they have this sign. Like, yeah. And it was this cognitive disconnect of, of course, wait, you can disagree with me and still love me. Absolutely is the case. And this. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, I think the popular press and the mainstream media and lefties, the secular left, they don't understand when Pope Francis calls gay marriage, the lobby for redefining marriage and redefining

gender and sexuality, calls that a machination of the devil, but simultaneously says, who am I to judge? I have plenty of my own sins, my own sins of the flesh. And even, you know, Dante puts sins of the flesh much higher up than sins of deception or whatever. In terms of levels of hell, the adulterers and sins of the flesh, they're kind of swirling around in the upper echelons. You know, it's really the betrayers who are way, way down lower. It can get far worse. And that second piece of like, you know, when you say,

why is this, how is this not hate? I remember talking with someone and using the example of baseball and football. So, you know, baseball, there's a lot of flexibility when it comes to baseball. You can have the bases 90 feet apart like normal. You can have an ump. You can not have no um. You can do it yourself. You can have the bases actually being those canvas things stuff with whatever.

Or you can have first base is someone's mitt, second base is someone's t-shirt. You know, third base is, you know, a hat. And there's some flexibility. But to play baseball, you need at least three essential elements. You need a baseball, a baseball bat. And you need to try to hit the ball with the bat to score a run. And so those are the essential things. You may take away the baseball.

and replace it with a softball, you have a different game called softball. You're replacing the football or you? Yeah, you take away the bat and now you have catch. You're playing catch. You take away the trying to hit the ball with the bat to run around the bases to score, run, and you're just having batting practice or fielding practice. But to play baseball, you need those three essential things. So it's not limitlessly undefined.

You know, if they had some essential. Now, here comes a football player and says, hey, I want to play baseball. Great. You're up next. He says, no, no, but I want to keep playing football, but I want you to call it baseball. He's like, well, we can't do that. We usually can't because, you know, you guys don't have an um or, you know, we have an op. Or you play on a field.

We play on a field. You have teams. We have team. It's the same game. It's okay, but you don't have the essential element. And I'm not even going to get to the point of like complaining about football and saying it's not as good as baseball. Right. I'm just saying they're different things.

And unless we can define a thing, to say it's different. in some people's minds means you're saying it's bad. And they're like, wait a second, but I'm just, let's just start with saying these are different things. That's a great point. To say a marriage and a monogamous same-sex relationship, I don't even have to say one is bad. I can just say they're different. That's right.

And let's leave it at that. Inherent in that there is, without making any moral statement whatsoever, you're making simply a categorical statement on the nature of two things. That is a great point. Now, much more important than any of it. these things. This has been an excellent discussion. Pretty illuminating, even for me, and I've just finished reading your book, which I enjoyed very much, much more important than any of these things. Father, Democrats have become very extreme on abortion. They now insist on killing pain

capable late-term babies. Next up will be fourth and fifth trimester abortion. They support redefining marriage into nothing. Next up will be polygamy and syllogamy. That's the new thing where you marry yourself. More on that on another episode, but it seems pretty rough. I think it's from sex in the city, as are many terrible things in our culture. According to Pew Research, while all the votes were relatively close, Catholic voters in America picked Al Gore over George Bush, Obama over McCain, Obama over Romney in 2000, 2008, and 2012. A large number of Catholics also supported John Kerry and even Hillary Clinton. Why do Catholics vote for Democrats?

I think it goes back to this kind of sleight of hand. And the flight of hand it has to do with Catholic social teaching is a real and really important thing and it's a real thing. Real thing is really important thing Catholic social teaching. And so when you were raised Catholic, you hear like, okay, care for the poor, care for those who are marginalized, care for those who are weak and those that the world wants to forget about. You're told this, it's true. And then it comes on a political party that says, hey, we care for the weak. We care for the marginalized. We care for the We care for those who are bullied. We care for all these kinds of things.

And I think there's kind of a bait and switch kind of thing happening where Catholics say, well, yeah, that's what, that's what happened. Like my conscience has at least been formed in that way. And so, well, I know that they support abortion all the way to the end. I mean, even like, you know, partial birth abortion, people would vote for it. There's craziness. It's going to be the fourth trimester abortion. That's going to be the next thing.

I'm positive of it. And then, but it says, well, yeah, that, but, but what about all those people that are helping with helping refugees and they're helping this and this and this. And I think, I just think it's a lack of, lack of good formation and the lack of, and I would even say not only formation, I would say it's lack of courage. That's absolutely true. Because when it comes down to it, I think that as a church, a lot of Catholics have become really, really comfortable. And we're comfortable with status quo. And so, you know, I got a call the other day from a youth group leader who is saying that there's some young people in her in her school who they were in south dakota in uh surges south

Dakota there's a group of transgender high school students in this high school and like that's interesting and and she said yeah our youth group kids you know we're trying to be nice to them they were just really mean back to them and and i said what do you mean really mean there's well they gave them dirty looks when they said hello in the hallway i thought okay well let's pump the break that's not being really mean that's a ubiquitous sort of thing that happens in high schools and yeah yeah and i was like and so i was like you know i understand understand what's going on, but we need to actually prepare the people, and prepare ourselves. It's okay if people don't like you.

Jesus actually even said, people are going to hate you. For my sake. For my sake. And in that sense of being able to say, let's, I'm going to use a, grow a pair. I was going to say, I don't know if we can say that on air. On this show, anything goes. That's some of the most polite thing you can say on my show. I'm in a pair of eyeballs and really see the truth, is what I meant to say.

I'm sorry, but please finish the point. No, but I think what needs is formation and courage. And I think that one, there's two areas that we're really lacking as a Catholic church is formation and really giving us encouragement to be courageous. I love that point so much. I think that's how I've got to sign off my show from now on as Father Michael Schmitz tells us all. grow a pair of eyes to see the truth. Father Michael Schmitz, author of Made for Love, Same Sex Attractions and the Catholic Church,

and you can catch him on YouTube. Father Schmitz, thank you so much for being here. I've really enjoyed it. And for everybody else, that's our show. That's our whole show today. Come back tomorrow. Tomorrow, by the way, is our 100th episode. You don't want to miss that.

We have some fun things planned. We've got crazy new technology that is going to shape our show tomorrow. But you'll have to tune in to see it. That is it. I am Michael Knowles. This is the Michael Knowles Show. Tune in tomorrow. We'll do it all again.

The Michael Knowles Show is produced by Marshall Benson. Executive producer Jeremy Boring. Senior producer Jonathan Hay. Supervising producer, Mathis Glover. Our technical producer is Austin Stevens. Edited by Alex Zingaro. Audio is mixed by Mike Coramina. Hair and makeup is by Jesua O'Vera.

The Michael Noles show is a Daily Wire Forward Publishing production. Copyright Forward Publishing 2018.