The Michael Knowles Show - Michael Knowles V Matt Fradd: “Christian Heresies" FACE-OFF

Episode Date: April 27, 2025

Michael Knowles vs. Matt Fradd in a Catholic showdown you won’t want to miss! In this special FACE-OFF episode, two of the most outspoken Catholic voices debate and discuss some of the most controversial topics in the Church today—what’s heresy, what’s orthodoxy, and where do Catholics draw the line?   From modern theology and Church tradition to internet Catholicism and hot-button cultural issues, Michael and Matt go head-to-head in a sharp, spirited, and faithful conversation.     - - -   Today’s Sponsor:   Hallow - Put your relationship with God first. Head over to https://hallow.com/knowles for three months free today! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Which Catholic group has been condemned for heretical views and for rejecting the legitimacy of modern popes? It's at A, the Jesuits, B, the Legionnaires of Christ, C, the Society of St. Pius the Tent, D, Opus Day. Oh, he's got none of these right. And he doesn't even realize it. Yeah. Do we have to throw this one out? Because, like, we... No, we should leave it.

I want your ignorance to be on first place as mine is. What is a heresy? I don't know. I'm a non-denominational Christian. But do you know who does know? and may or may not be guilty of a few, the two men stepping into today's intellectual arena. Michael Knowles and Matt Frad, one of them, has spent a life studying the writings of Aquinas, memorizing counsels and years with a dialect coach to develop a convincing Australian accent.

The other has attempted the Bible in a year plan at least a dozen times and hasn't made it past Second King. I won't say who's who, but today we will find out who really knows more about Catholic heresies. Here's how we play. I will read a question. Each podcaster will have 30 seconds to write down their answer, and in the end, the loser will be forced to give a 30-second commercial for the winner, and admit that John Calvin had some good points. This is face-off. Here it's wonderful to be on my own show. I'm a little nervous, though, because last I checked Mr. Frad has his own Catholic AI company. Is that right, truthly? So how do I know you're not just plugged in there pulling up all the answers? Because I also believe that it's always immoral

without exception to lie. And so, if you believe that, then I don't have anything pulled up. Yeah, okay. All right, this is good. Thank you. People should go check out truthfully. It's like chat GPT, went through OCIA,

got baptized, and is now the best evangelist. So check it out. Thank you for pointing that out. Certainly. I hope that I get to light up a pines with Aquinas cigar later. But for now, shall we turn to the resident heretic to ask the questions? I think we should. I'm glad that Matt couched that,

that he's always honest, because he has a computer in front of him and can Google any of these questions. Yeah. But I will say... As long as my hands aren't by the keyboard. By the way, I'm going to fail this. I literally ask before we click record, what is this on?

So I haven't spent much time. Yeah, here we go. Go for it. That'll level out the playing field. Okay. Matt, if it makes you feel better, win or lose, you do have the better oil painting on your set. Like, hands down, your painting does look more impressive than Michael.

Are you sure? Unless you're an iconoclast. Come on. Sorry. Wow. All right. Starting out strong. Two cent.

All right, here we go. First question. What's the bone most often broken by heretics? What does that even mean? I don't understand what that means. What is the bone broken by heretics? The... Do we have to write this on the...

Yes. Ten seconds. I get to write something quick. I got no idea. I got nothing. And... Worth the... Time.

It's some play on like orthopedic. or something? I'm sorry, gentlemen, the word we're looking for is the blasphemer. The blasphemer. The blasphemer. No, that's the bone that constitutes the heretics. The bone that the heretic breaks is like some play on orthodoxy. Listen, you're not an expert on rules.

The question was what it was, and you guys are both starting zero zero. So here we go. This is not good. With the next question, gentlemen, dial it in. if someone claims Jesus is a creation of God, and therefore, distinct from God, what heresy are they guilty of? Is it A, Nestorianism, B, modalism, C, docedism, D, Arianism. Oh, I can't show it yet, don't show it yet.

Brad, don't do it. I can't read it my glasses on. I don't know. I'm ready. I wrote it. I feel pretty confident that Brad has got this one. This is the easiest of the early church heresies. Come on, don't even pretend.

Why don't you show the audience first then? The Aryan, it's Aryanism, right? If there is, what is Nestorianism? I kind of, like, I know, that was the one that Muhammad encountered. I think that one actually, like, started Islam, but I forget exactly what that one is. Well, I can teach you right, but it might be a future question. It might be a question, you're right, hold off on it. It may be.

Number two, when was the last official execution for heresy? And this is closest without going over. Give me the year. Oh, my gosh. Last year, the official, because there was some, you know, wild priests that may have done a thing or two. official, what year was it? I mean, I'm just going to guess. How's that? Closest without going over. So remember the rules.

Closest without going over. And here's, gosh, official by who? The state? Yeah. Oh, shoot. The state or the church? It's not the church. Where does one begin and the other end? That's the question. You make a great point? All right. You ready? All right, no, what you got? I say 1609.

I said 1452. for no reason except it was a blind shot in the dark. Michael, that was very impressive. It was 1612. Yes! I only said 1611, and I don't know why, but I was like, let me go. Who was it? Edward Whiteman was the last person executed for heresy in England in 1612.

All right. Yeah. I did have England in my mother. Church? Let's go. Yeah, England. I thought for sure it would be like in Italy or something. Yeah.

No, England. The Italians are pretty chill, actually. They don't. The mob kills people, but the church in a scale. I disagree. I've driven through. It was anything but chill. They're all frenetic.

They're just not really doing anything. All right. Number three. Which heresy claims that Jesus was only a non-divine man who was later adopted as the son of God by the descending spirit? Is it A, Ibonism, B, adoptism. C, ordainism. D, Unitarianism. A lot of isn't it like in the name?

Let's go, Michael. Yeah, that's where I was thinking. You could have been a little bit more. B? Is adoptionism? The correct answer is B, adoptism. Okay. Your pronunciation of these heresies, by the way, is really funny.

It's so hard of reading these things on as a Protestant who's never been aware of any of these. Like, it's very hard. You just believed them. You haven't been aware of them. You've just held them. More heresies in a moment. First, though, if you want to get the latest news and if you want to understand what the news actually means, come check out and subscribe to the Michael Knowles show every weekday at noon Eastern.

I will take you beneath the surface of daily political events to reveal their historical, philosophical, even religious roots. Catch it Monday through Friday at noon Eastern. Now, back to face off, heresies with Matt Frad. All right, number four, which militant heretical group rejected property demanded all debts be canceled and glorified martyrdom? Is it A, the Donastus, B, Albigensians, C, circumciliens, or D, Democrats? I think I have. I think I got it. All right, what do you have? All right, what do you have? Is it the Albigensians? The correct answer is C, the circumciliens.

Circumcilians, huh? Yeah. I've never heard of them. Those pesky circumsilians? Because the Albigensians also were militant and pro-like death and commies. Yeah. Interesting. I kind of want partial credit for that.

I mean, I don't care. I guess I always canceled out. But I think that would also describe the Albigensians. Well, the Abigensians were dualists. They were also known as the Cathars, weren't they? The Cathars, yeah. They were big into poverty and essential. aesthetical practices. And that's actually why the Dominicans and Franciscans arose.

Well, you know the difference. As a sort of response to them. Matt, you know the difference between, do you know the similarities and differences between the Jesuits and the Dominicans? Okay. I'm thinking this is a joke. No. Oh, well, they're both orders of the Catholic Church, both Spanish order, founded by Spaniard, Spanish orders, St. Dominic and St. Ignatius Loyola. But they're both founded to combat heresy.

the Dominicans founded to combat Albagencianism, the Jesuits founded to combat Protestantism. But you know the difference between the orders? What's the difference? When's the last time you ever heard of an Albujanian? That's good.

I heard that actually from Peter Crafe now that you bring it up. It's good, yeah. Do I just something? I don't get it off. Anyway, we'll be here all night. Tip your waitress. Anyway, all right.

Number five. Which early Jewish Christian sect claimed Jesus was the Messiah but not divine? and insisted on following the mosaic law. Is it A, the Marcyonites, the B, the sojices, C, Ebenites, D, Nestorians. Okay. Are you ready?

I think that was ebiotism. Is that ebiotism? The correct answer is C, the Ebynites. Ebenites? I thought it was ebiotism. According to whatever translation this is, Ebonites. Like ebony? Like ebony?

But I mean, that's correct. I mean, that's the right. Yeah, okay. All right. That's the sect of people, though. Not like their isom. That was like the sect of people. Yeah, who are you talking about those people?

Okay. It's the Jesuits. All right. Number six, which heresy affirmed Jesus as Savior but rejected the Hebrew Bible and described the Old Testament God as a lesser wrathful deity? Is it A, D, D, D, D. A, D. Ebonism. C. Marcianism.

D. And at some point, I'd like a score count, because I'm pretty sure he's, winning. You ready? We can do that. That would be Marcianism. C. That is correct. See, Marcianism. And can we get a score count from the control room? Knowles 5, frad 4. This is getting close, gentlemen. No, neck to neck. Whoa, all right.

If only you had had the blasphemer. Yeah, the blasphemer. Yeah, I really want to challenge that. But anyway. Number seven, which heresy rejected both the divinity and Messiah's ship of Jesus while adhering to Old Testament law. Is it A, G, A, Arianism, C, Maneism, C, Manichaeism, D, rabbinic Judaism. And this is the one that gets us fired from the Daily Wire. Okay, that's fine. Would that be D, rabbinical Judaism?

I just wrote Ben Shapiro. I will take either. It is rabbinic Judaism D. Do we call it, though, would you call Judaism a heresy? According to Google heresies. Doesn't a heresy deviate from the religion? So like, you know, you could call Islam a heresy because it deviates, like it's founded because Muhammad meets an historian. But for the rabbinic Jews, if they never believed in any kind of Christianity in the first place, would they be heretics or just infidels?

That's what it said? It said it was heresy. Yeah. All right. Number eight. In what year did the Roman Empire criminalized heresy through the edict of Thessalonica? Through the edict of Thessalonica. This is the closest without going over again.

All right. Closest for that. pedantic. I think it's pronounced Thessalonica, right? Or am I... Look, maybe you're right. I don't know. I don't know, but I'm going to guess. Well, Michael's on a guessing hot streak with this whole closest thing. I'm going to say... I was going to say 300. I said 315.

Oh, he's such a savage. It's 380. Yeah, let's go, baby. Oh! 380. You know why? I figured it had to be after the edict of Milan, which legalizes Christianity. What was that? That was like 311 or something? thing, 3, 13, something like that. Wow, let's go, baby. Oh, man.

Just running away with it. I'm going to catch up here. Yeah, all right. I'm trying to think of my 30-second advertisement. I know it's coming. It's going to be blank. It's going to be speechless. All right.

Number nine. What was Prisillian, who was the first Christian executed for heresy by the Roman officials, officially condemned four in 386? Was it A, denying the Trinity? B, practicing sorcery, C, teaching Pelagianism, D, desecrating sacraments. Kayak gets my flight, hotel, and rental car right, so I can tune out travel advice that's just plain wrong.

Bro, Skycoin, way better than points. Never fly during a Scorpio full moon. Just tell the manager you'll sue. Instant room upgrade. Stop taking bad travel advice. Start comparing hundreds of sites with kayak and get your trip right. Kayak, got that right. My problem is when the name doesn't line up with a heresy, I'm out of luck.

Is it a B? The correct answer is B practicing sorcery. Frad gets one step. I knew that. I was completely convinced the whole time. Wow. But practicing sorcery. He's still up one.

Sorcery isn't heresy. Sorcery, right? Sorcercery is bad and sacrilegious, but it's not a heresy. He was a Christian. He was doing it. So I think that's... Yeah, blasphemer. We began with blasphemer.

I feel like we can't hold him too strictly to the... Yeah, you're right. No, you're right. This is in the League of Blasphemer. All right, well, it's getting closer. All right, here we go. If someone denies church teaching unknowingly, what classification of Heretic are they?

No multiple choice for this. Yeah, all right. I'm ready. I think we have some Catholics at the office that cling to this one. As long as I don't know, I'm good. It's quite a lot of things he's writing there. Hopefully he's making a joke about the person

we're thanking you. All right. Yeah. What do you got, Fred? Is that material heretic? Yeah. Mike, what do you have? I said a venial sinning

heretic, venial not more, but slash anyone who was catechized in the 80s or 90s. That was clever, but it's not right. It is actually material heretic. Wow. Now, we are tied up, gentlemen. Yikes.

Yes, finally. Yikes. I guess you're right, because it's not, Not all material heretics were catechized in the 80s or 90s, but all people who were catechized in the 80s or 90s have been material heretics. Okay. All right. Here's the way I remember it.

Here's a bit of catechesis with a mnemonic device. So you've got the distinction between material heresy and formal heresy. So with material heresy, you have the material you need to then later be perhaps formed into a serious heresy. Wow, that's good. I don't know if that helps anybody. Okay. All right.

No, I'll take that. I'm sure it helps somebody. Maybe it'll help you with this one. Number 11. Which Catholic group has been condemned for heretical views and for rejecting the legitimacy of modern popes? It's at A, the Jesuits, B, the Legioneers of Christ, C, the Society of St. Pius I, the 10th, D. Opus Day. Oh, he's got none of these right. Yeah.

And he doesn't even realize it. Yeah. Should we write the real group? Or like... Yeah, we could write the real group, but it's... It's none of them. Do we have to throw this one out? Because, like, we...

No, we should leave it. I want your ignorance to be on first place as mine is. Some crackpot researchers that have really dug in to Catholic heresies since the 80s when I was catechized. Yeah, hold on. I mean, I guess you could call these people not even heretics, well, not heretics, but at least Centeficantists would be... Yeah, the Cedais. The Cetivacantists or the real answer. Now I say, right.

The cacantist? And someone, who knows? I mean, some of them, maybe you could, you could, I guess in principle, accuse some of them of heresy, but the one, I guess you were going to say SSPX, but they're just canonically irregular, Mr. Davies. Well, that is actually the abbreviation that we had for it, and that is correct. If we can scroll back to see the name again, it was, the answer was C, the Society of St. P.S.PX. That's incorrect, is the problem. You lose a point. You're wrong about that. Hold on. Can we pull up truthfully real quick and double-check this? We don't really truthly for that one. The thing is, though, you tried to trick us with that first

answer because the trick, of course, is that the Jesuits have never been formally condemned for their heresies. So that was out there. And no, SSPX, whatever problems there are, they're canonically irregular, we say. And some accuse them of being systematic. But it's controversial. But it's the say-days that you wanted to say. Can we double-checked up the control rooms? don't need to upset the trads either. You don't need to check it, Ben, I can assure you. I even threw out a couple of these because it was like that where it's like, oh, you know,

it was just not officially condemned. This was like the one that it would said like it was heredical. Yeah, you should delete that whatever website you were on. You should use truthly. You should use truthly. Right now go to hallow.com slash Knowles. I want to share something special with you as we move from Lent into Easter. You know how Lent was all that fasting and reflection?

Well, Easter is our time to rejoice and remember that Christ died and rose for us. Hallow has put together this amazing Easter program with Sister Miriam James Hydeland, Father John Burns, and even Liz Tabish. You know, the actress who plays Mary Magdalene in The Chosen. Also, Kevin James is part of it, too. They're all exploring this beautiful spiritual book called Interior Freedom by Father Jacques-Philippe. The program is designed to help you experience true freedom in your everyday life. Every day, you'll learn practical ways to let go of those external things that weigh you down and discover the peace that comes from trusting God more deeply. for continuing those prayer habits you worked so hard to build during a land, just a few minutes

each day for reflections, prayers, and meditations that really connect with the joy of Easter. Hallow is not just for Easter. We've got thousands of prayers, meditations, even music, to help you build that daily prayer habit and grow closer to God. Download it today. We're offering three months totally free, hallow.com slash Knowles for this exclusive offer. All right, number 12, which Pope once declared heretics to be worse than Muslims? Was it A, Pope Innocent the Third? Pope Urbane the 2nd C, Pope Gregory the Knight, D, Pope Benedict the Knight. Yeah, I like how you've turned Urban the second, who's very based and declares the First Crusade,

into a kind of more posh, nice version, when he's Pope Urbane. You know, that's like his... It rolls off the tongue. It's like Urban, Urban in the day, and then Urbane at the cocktail party, you know. You tell me when you're ready and we'll flip this bad boy around. Kind of torn on two, but... I don't know, I said B. The answer is C.

Pope Gregory the 9th. Would you have, Fred? I had the same as him. I know, I had a C. I had C. No, I had a C. Yeah, yeah. What was that you said about the immorality of flying under all circumstances?

Hold on. Sorry, only when it doesn't benefit me. I should have added that last one. Was Gregory the 9th? Like, I'm wondering if Urban the 2nd was the first crusade, obviously, to go slay all the Saracens. But then was Gregory the 9th,

like the Cathar Crusade or something? when you're saying, actually, we've got enough heretics here that we need to crusade against or I don't know, I don't remember. I didn't even get the answer right, so I got nothing. Yeah, okay. Darn, I was really leaning for a while that way. Okay, never mind. Next one.

I haven't been following you the entire time. Yeah. But I think we are still tied going down the home stretch. Yikes. Here we go. 13. Which heresy did the Catholic Church launch the Albigensian? This is going to kill me.

For which heresy did the Catholic Church launched the Albigensian crusade to suppress. Is it A, montanism? I think it was Alvagenzianism. I'm no scholar. A, Montanism. B, Donatism, C, catharism, or D, Nestorianism. So, sorry, gentlemen.

I got it. You can't get it. I got it. Your emphasis, Mr. Benjamin, is quite interesting, but it would be catharism. It is catharism C. Also known as Alvagencianism. I had no idea.

It's way easier when you put it that way. I had no idea those two words were connected. All right, 14. What was the heresy introduced by Gottfried Fomassus that claimed Jesus gave up some divine attributes in his incarnate state? Did A, mortalism? B, Canosis.

C, humanic, Christianity. D. Moveism. Humanic Christianity since very 19th century. So I'm going with that. Y'all are both wrong. It's B. Canosis.

I thought that's what happens when you stop eating carbs. Does that? My body's in Canosis. Doesn't canosis mean knowledge? I can't tell you. And if it does, what does that have to do with? I wonder. Well, this is something that can be to look up later.

Thank you for you. We should look at all upon truthfully. Definitely. Yes. Yeah. All right. This is the final question, gentlemen. Thanks. Are we draw? Have we, is this a draw so far? I think it's a draw. It is. They'll check. Okay. All right.

So is it possible for us to draw or will you give us a bonus question so one of us can win? There will be a bonus question so someone can win. Okay. All right. All right. Queen Mary the first of England, known as Bloody Mary, launched a campaign to purge heresy from England after her false pregnancies, which she considered, quote, God's punishment for tolerating heretics. How many heretics were burned at the stake during her reign. This is an estimation. Not enough. That's how many. Closest without going over.

Oh, come on. Oh, we have to end on one of these, too. Sorry, Matt. And, you know, this is an estimation, but we'll just go with this number. I'm waiting to see how much his pen moves before I know what I'm going to do. Oh, my gosh.

These are all really... He's really good at these guesses. You know? Yeah. He loves the closest about going over thing. All right. I'm just going to pick

a ridiculous number hoping that he went too high. All right. All right. Michael, what do you have? Was it ridiculous? It wasn't ridiculous. It was reasonable and modest.

What did you put? I said 90. Oh, crap. I... Okay. I put a thousand. A thousand. A thousand.

The massacre, Mary. The correct answer is 280. What's... Oh! Oh, man, right at the finish mine. Well, based on no knowledge. That was just, I guess, based on how numbers work. Wow.

Story your life, yeah. Whoa. Well, Michael, soak it in for a moment. However, if you wish, since this is a gentleman's game, you can put... I don't. I don't at all wish to do a double or nothing. No, I just want to win. Risk it all, double or nothing on a bonus question.

Yeah, yeah, double or nothing. I do have a story for you, though, about... Queen Mary, which is I looked this up one time because on one side I'm, you know, Italian and Catholic, Irish Catholic too, but on one side I'm super wasp in English and like the Mayflower cigar side. And so I was trying to figure out if I, there was a chance that I was a direct descendant of Sir Francis Knowles, Sir Francis Knowles, who was keeper of the privy purse, who was the imprisoner of Mary Queen of Scots, and who mocked St. Edmund Campion on the scaffold and demanded that he renounced the Pope. But instead of that, following this line of like really royal, well-educated people, I think instead, the last knolls I can trace was a mariner in New Hampshire and very likely illiterate.

You win some, you lose some. Man, oh, I won that. I won some. You did. Let's go, baby. No, I got a, Mr. Fred, I have to admit, going into this, I was a little nervous because you have much more religious knowledge than I do. What I didn't count on is all the random number questions. So anyway, thank you, Ben.

I appreciate that. And for your marvelous pronunciation of all of the heresies. Michael, to the victor goes the spoils, even though, you know, it wasn't exactly a gentleman's way to do it or win it. So Mr. Frat, would you please give us a 30-second commercial for the Michael... All right. Set timer for 30 seconds. Thank you, truthly.

I mean, my goodness. I mean, Michael Knowles, I mean, he's not sure if... if Ben Shapiro is a heretic or not. He hasn't made up his mind. He leans towards no. He's a wonderful guy. He's got a great line of cigars. And just he's got

hair. Yeah, hold on. You got like 20 more seconds. Is that he's all out? He's got really just, he's got a couple of eyeballs, and it's all held together with like a face. You know, and that's, there we go. That's time.

That was the worst. You wouldn't even get in there that I would happily call Ben an infidel. I can't. That's terrible. All right. Well, a plug is a plug. That was absolutely beautiful and heartfelt, Matt. And there you have it. And if you haven't already, please go subscribe to Pines of Aquinas on YouTube. Grab a copy of How to Be Happy St. Thomas's Secret to a Good Life available wherever books are sold. And download the new Catholic AI app, Truthfully, in the app store. And please post in the comments who we should have next and what topic to cover.

in the next episode of Face Off.