The Michael Knowles Show - Michael & The Former Psychic: "It Was Fine Until the Demon Touched Me"

Episode Date: August 26, 2023

Exclusive discount for my listeners! https://genucel.com/KnowlesYT     Embark on a riveting journey with Michael Knowles, brought to you by The Daily Wire, as he sits down with Jenn Nizza, an ex-psychic, to unearth the mysteries and truths behind the world of psychic phenomena. This revealing conversation promises to shed light on a realm that remains shrouded in intrigue for many.   From predictions and premonitions to the often-misunderstood nuances of the psychic profession, Jenn Nizza provides an unprecedented insider's view. Her transformation from a practicing psychic to an ex-psychic opens a treasure trove of stories, experiences, and revelations.   Whether you've always been curious about the psychic world, skeptical about its practices, or somewhere in between, this candid interview is poised to offer insights, answers, and perhaps even more questions.   Engage with us by hitting the LIKE button, SHARE to broaden the conversation, and SUBSCRIBE for a steady stream of compelling content. We value your perspective, so please leave a COMMENT below with your takeaways from this unique dialogue.   Join the wider discussion with these hashtags: #MichaelKnowles #JennNizza #ExPsychicInsights #TheDailyWire #SpiritualRealm Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

When I was a real psychic medium, I really wanted to help people. I was told I had a gift from God. And that draws you in, right? It must have scared you when you discovered this ability. I wasn't scared until I started seeing scary things and hearing scary things and getting touched by demons. Did you get that? You did not. Because I'm not a psychic.

And you're not a psychic. My guest today used to be a psychic. That would be Jen Niza. And this episode is brought to you by Jen, you sell more from them later. Now, I would like to turn to my guest. Jen, thank you for coming on the show. Thank you for having me. So I want to hear your whole story.

You were a psychic. You are no longer. You grew up in New York. That's really all I know. Long Island. Long Island. How does a nice, normal Italian lady from New York end up a psychic? Normal.

Thank you. At least you seem normal. Well, in my home, Michael, we were talking about paranormal activity. Things being moved around, the light going on and off. It was acceptable terms like ghosts were being used in my home. My mom's aunt was a psychic medium. She wasn't a professional. It wasn't her job.

She also was kind of what people do now, they call it Reiki. She was a self-professing healer with energy. So it was kind of something. that mom grew up around. So then when we were children, we grew up around it too. It was in my home and being talked about. As a matter of fact, even in the community, a friend of my sisters, she's a couple of years older than I am. So we were about 1213 or she was about 1213. And a group of girls got together and they had the Ouija board. And the Ouija board is still out there today, rocking and rolling in Toys R Us or wherever it's being sold.

And these girls got together, and they did the Ouija board, and the story was crazy. They asked the Ouija board, and I don't know if you want me to explain what the Ouija board is, but... I've mentioned it before. I actually don't even totally know. But it's this toy, but it's not really a toy. And it's this weird occult kind of thing where you all put your hands on the little dial, and it brings you to different letters and numbers. And the only other thing I know about it is the story of how this thing got patented

is shrouded in mystery. No one really knows where this thing came from. And it's still there. I remember I was walking in Long Island, not that long ago. I was walking down the street in Sag Harbor, and I saw that they had the board in a toy shop, one of the famous toy shops there.

So, okay, so you're doing this weird occult Ouija board type thing? Yeah. Well, I'm hearing about this. Are you hearing about it? I wasn't doing it. And I was a little bit younger, and these girls got together, and you know, you ask it questions, which, of course, what you're doing is you're invoking demons when you're doing this, right?

So the girls asked who would be, I'll use the term, unalive first. Who would be dead? Who was going to die? All right, I'm just going to be, I'm going bold, Michael, putting it out there, okay? There's a couple of New Yorkers here. Yeah, we are. We can be blunt. Okay, good.

So they asked who was going to die first, and the planchette was moving around, and it spelled out this girl's name that was sitting there. A couple of weeks later, she unalived herself. Now, it's like, it's so sad, obviously. But then when you hear about that, how did it know? How did that? But that girl was suffering with depression. And, you know, I don't mean to go into, you know,

a whole educational thing, but how the demons know is because they're hovering around. and they see. And so they knew that girl was vulnerable and susceptible. And I'm sure that suggestion was just enough to push her over the edge. You know, we've mentioned demons once or twice. And for all of human history, everyone believed in angels and demons. And for the last 60 years, we've all decided that it's not real.

But I certainly think it's all real. And one aspect of demons is they're not God. It's not that they can read your mind, but they are observant. They've been around a long time. They're very observant, which is what you're describing, that they kind of can see these things that you're doing and pray on you. So you're hearing these. Who did you hear this from?

My sister. This is from your sister who participated? She didn't, but her friends did. So you're hearing all these things, and then where does the paranormal activity fit in your house? Your aunt is involved in all this stuff? Well, she didn't, my aunt wasn't in our house, but my mom grew up that way. So I think that's why it was acceptable in our home and where my mom, and I am not throwing mom under the bus.

Oh, that's my disclaimer. Nobody come at mom, okay? She didn't know any better. She actually brought a tarot card reader into the house when I was 13. And I had that tarot card reading, and I was like blown away. I was like, how did these cards know this? How did this woman know that my friend just came back from a trip and gave me a, a piece of jewelry and I know that sounds generic but she went into the type of jewelry,

she went into the whole thing. Okay, this is what, because we just jumped right into the deep end here, but this is what a lot of people are going to ask, which is with the Tara readers or someone who says they can speak to the dead, you know, like that guy who used to be on TV, John Edwards, or any psychic or whatever, they're going to say, okay, regardless of what I think about the existence of angels and demons and spirits and stuff, aren't a lot of these guys just, just Hucksters who are really good at reading people's cues and using vague enough language. They say, you know, I'm getting a bee.

And you say, yes, my Aunt Bertha died 10 years ago. Yeah, it's her. That's it. Right. So how much of it is just hucksterism and how much of it is tapping into something real? There really are charlatans out there are hucksters, like you say. And we're seeing a lot of them, I think, on TikTok. We're seeing them on the street corners with the palm readings.

I was about to say some. You know where my head is. The psalm reading is a lot better. Yeah, it's so much better. But what you're describing is a cold reading. So looking for the cues. I would actually say, Michael, there are more real psychics out there, more real psychics, that are really communicating with demons.

I would steer people away from the whole thing, of course, altogether. But on TikTok, an example would be now they have all new kinds of divination. tools that I had never even seen before, like dousing rods and that's been around for a while. I just never used them. Dowsing rods or any other thing that they're just looking for a yes or a no. That's where your huckster really comes in. I mean, you have a 50-50 shot. I mean, come on.

So when I see that on TikTok, I go, scroll. I'm not even going in there to preach the gospel. I'm like, you know. I mean, that is just, but they're still participating in divination anyway. They're still doing it. They're just pretending, but they're still doing it. And if you do bad things ironically long enough, there's really no difference for you're not irony and sincerity. Exactly.

So your family's experience with this weird occult stuff goes back a little bit. How did your aunt get involved in it? When I became a psychic medium, so there is a difference between psychics and psychic mediums. What's a difference? Well, I was one of those people talking to who I believe were dead people, so just like John Edward. All psychic mediums are psychic, but not all psychics are mediums. So a psychic, like a tarot card reader or a clairvoyant, may not tell you that they're not going to be connecting with somebody from the other side. Those are new age terms, but they're not claiming to bring anybody through.

So that's different. They're not channeling a deceased person or a medium. I'm picturing, like, in medical school, you know, you start out general ed, and then you say, okay, I'm going to focus on phlebotombed. I don't know. I'm going to focus on obstetrics. So you grow up with this, you see the tarot cards, you hear the Ouija stories, you know your aunt's involved in this, your mom's kind of open to it. At what point do you say, I'm going to be a psychic? Well, right after that tarot card reading, I was getting tarot cards, my own tarot cards, my sister got her own deck, and we started doing readings. In those decks, it comes with

these little books that explain how to do layouts and certain things. types of readings, like, are you doing past, present, future? And then the claim is that the card will give you information, and that information about the card is in this little booklet as well. So the idea is to read the little book and do these cards. But I didn't have to look at any sort of explanation of these cards. I started receiving information, because, of course, the cards know nothing about you. It's just cardboard. But you don't know that at the time you're deceived. So my sister would read the little booklet and get the definitions or whatever, descriptions rather, of the cards. And we would go back and forth and do readings. I mean,

like it was our job, but it wasn't at that time. So what convinced you that you were reading something that's real? Because presumably when you lay the cards out or do whatever you do with the cards, you could either flop and not get the correct information. Then maybe you'd say, okay, I'd give it up. So what is? What is you? What is you? You know, what is you? You know, you could either flop and not get the correct information. And then maybe You'd say, okay, I'd give it up. So what encouraged you to keep going? When accurate information was coming out during those readings, it's not just something that resonates with you.

It is something that will be true about you. And that's, again, because even when you think about the descriptions of the cards, that was being channeled by a psychic. That's automatic writing. So that didn't come from nowhere. That's demonic information, the descriptions of those cards. So, of course, them being put down in a certain type of a way really doesn't matter. The information is channeled and something is going to hit.

Something is going to hit because the demons are in control of this thing. And they're around. And you've already invoked them the second you took out that deck. That's what you've done. So you're sitting with your sister and you're putting the cards out. Yeah. Do you remember any kind of like, hey, you know, you made out with Jimmy at the bus stop yesterday? I mean, is it what, do you have an example of?

You're really taking me back on 46, Michael. I assumed you were 29. Thank you. I was like 15 when we were doing this between 13 and 16. But I have a lot of examples of things that, you know, I did a lot of automatic writings. The cards, the cards were just a stepping stone. And that's a big thing that people really need to know. What is automatic writing?

Automatic writing is when you said, I did it with paper and pen, and I would ask a question. or I put a name down. I did it for my clients as well. And I just started channeling. I just started channeling information and wrote it really quickly. It just started coming right out. So kind of like a reading, but on a piece of paper.

And you're not consciously... No, it's just going. I mean, it's kind of like information is being downloaded. They're not your thoughts. It's information coming in birthdays, names of people, like really names of people, not like who's the M name or what?

whatever, like really names of people, really things that happened in your life. And I did this for perfect strangers. I used to read people, I used to be getting like x-rays and ultrasounds, and I would just start reading. The people that, the radiologist or whoever was doing the test, yeah. And that really came to my mind, I have to say, when they were doing my makeup and stuff, rewind when I was a psychic, I would have just busted out into a reading. I thank God, free of that.

It must have scared you when you discovered this ability, right? I mean, it would have disconcerted me if I discovered I had that skill. I wasn't scared until I started seeing scary things and hearing scary things and getting touched by demons. Because think about the devil giving you this power. He liked to have pride. You like to have power, right? You have that when you know things, hidden knowledge about people, right? And now people are coming to you for these readings, and that's building you up, right?

They're coming to you. They're not going to God. And I'm saying that with a lot of regret, trust me. And I was a young person, so it wasn't like I was walking around, ooh, I want to be powerful. But it does give you that power and it's prideful. Nothing scary there, but scary when you start seeing demons manifesting around you. And some of the readings I did, Michael, were even though my spirit guide, I added my spirit guide, who was supposed to be filtering, because the belief was that there were good spirits and bad spirits. And then, of course, you would use false tools of protection, like crystals and white sage and smudging.

And I smudged everything to death. What's smudging? So you take white sage and you burn it. And it's like a bundle tied with a little rope, and I would burn it around myself, burn it in my room, wherever I went to do readings. And the idea is that it would scare away demons, clear out your space. It's still very big today, by the way. And of course it doesn't, because a demon doesn't care about sage. But I didn't know that.

I had a divination leader. She said, just imagine white light around yourself, almost like, you know, a crime scene when the body's there and they draw a line like around the body? And that's what she would tell us. Just imagine a demon is not afraid of my imagination. No. Or a fake light. Or whatever.

They've been around a long time. They're like, come on. You know, but I did do that. Anyway, I was at a Halloween party, and I used to get hired. A lot around Halloween. That's, you know, spooky time and bringing the psychics. And this woman sat in front of me. It was a group of people, but I offered, everybody could stay in the group together,

or you could have a mini private reading. And that's what they opted for. And this woman, this is how we were sitting just like this. And I sat and I started channeling and it felt like a bad spirit. And I start giving the information. So the demon, because we know it's a demon, I didn't know then, masquerading as this woman's uncle. But here's the thing.

Her uncle shot her and her brother when she was a child. This thing apparently, because I remember I was seeing the newspapers, I didn't know this woman from a hole in the wall. And there was like this angst building up. And now she's looking at me like I did it because she's seeing, you know, she's, because I'm communicating with the uncle, which of course I'm not. It's a demon. And it's almost like I could have been out of this.

Like she's dealing now with the uncle straight on, but I'm not the uncle. It's me. Hello. And she's looking at me with daggers in her eyes. And I just wanted to get out of there. I was sick for like, I don't know, a weekend or a full week after that. I felt so sick. It was sickening and evil.

So there is an evil side that some. Some psychics at the time like myself would acknowledge, but many don't acknowledge that side of it. What was your spirit guide like? Oh, well, my spirit guide was a Native American man. And just very strong, very, but strong but peaceful seeming. Again, we have to just put that out there. Wanting to help me, wanting to guide me. And yeah, that's really just a quick answer to that one.

And I think if we go back to that experience I shared with you when that evil spirit, which was pretending to be that woman's uncle who shot her, it's like, where were you then? You know, where were you then? Yeah, yeah. Oh, man. Sudo-holy spirit. Yeah. See, I'm more used to saying Holy Spirit than I'm saying Spirit Guide these days.

Good. It's a better habit to have cultivated. Yeah, but you can see how it's, you can see how that happens, and then you always have something to blame or something else to do. But yeah. And this spirit guide, I believed, watched over my daughter, too. I could see him when my daughter was little. I used to heal her when she was sick. Which, again, I didn't take any Reiki classes, but I believed I could heal her when she was sick. And I saw my spirit guide standing behind her one day when she was really sick. So I believed I was covered. But then those... You saw her like... Or you saw him in the...

Right behind her. Yeah. Just manifested that way. Doesn't look like me and you, but I could see him. That's how I knew he was Native American. He didn't tell me it. I could see it. Yeah.

Yeah. Did it work? No. No. And it's not because I was any less of a reiki person than anybody else. Just because God's in control. Yeah. Not chief demon.

Chief Baffin. Correct. Right. standing behind you with a feather in his head. Right. Can you not actually talk to a ghost? Meaning, I know there's a big debate, are ghosts real? But there is a ghost in the Bible in an example of necromancy,

where Saul goes to the Witch of Endmore. And Saul says, I'm outlawing all sorts of necromancy. And then he himself goes and says, hey, call up the ghost of Samuel. And this necromancer does the incantation. And then seems kind of surprised. Yeah. And she says, wait a second, you're Saul. Wait, hold on, you're not.

That's a ghost there. Anyway, there's a long history of theological debate about the nature of this ghost. But my question is, can you call up a ghost? A deceased person? Yeah. No. No, you can't. When we die, we go to one of two places, dependent upon your relationship with Jesus, of course.

So no. And there's a great chasm in between. And of course, the Bible tells us that also, if you look at Lazarus and the rich man, Luke 16, you'll see that there's a great wall, if you will, between heaven and hell. So how I say it all the time is, I'm not bopping in and out of heaven and coming to Earth, coming to your dream, talking to a psychic, and you're not getting out of hell and coming here either. So once where the Bible actually also says, don't talk to the sleeping, they know nothing, don't talk to the dead, they know nothing.

You are where you are. So you're never, ever contacting a deceased person. You're being duped, but you're not being duped because the psychic is trying to, of course, minus the charlatans and the hucksters. But people like me, when I was a real psychic medium, I really wanted to help people. I was told I had a gift from God. There's that little, you know, and that draws you in, right? Because you're thinking this is a gift, this is so helpful. This person is nice and compassionate, and we're hugging and crying.

and I believe that it's your child coming through. I believe it's your husband or your wife or your grandma. And again, I don't know you from Adam. And I'm able to tell you where you were last week, what you were doing, who your family members are, how your mom died, what she looked like. And that's really, that is frightening when you think about it, but I wasn't frightened while I was doing it. Only when the bad things. And very seductive. It's very seductive, too, but both because of the appeal to pride and because you think you're,

helping someone. So the people who come to you, it's because someone just died, they're having difficulty grieving, and so they say, I want to talk. Listen, I get it. I've had loved ones die, and I think, I googled it once. So how do you talk to the dead? I didn't take it any further than that. But so, and I don't intend to. But you're a kid, you hear about these things, you play these little tarot games, you then, when does it become a job? Yeah. So actually, that was the scary stuff started happening for me. I was getting touched. I got thrown off my chair.

I was in, we called it the computer room. I lived with my parents at the time, and I literally was thrown off the chair. And that's the same room where I was being touched. The treadmill was in there. So when I was on the treadmill, I would feel hands on me. And these things were happening.

And, of course, I went to my psychic medium. So you had a psychic, too. Of course I did. I guess it's like a doctor doesn't write his own prescriptions. That's right. Okay, so you go to the other psychic. Yes, I go to the other psychic.

and I don't say a word, just see if she was going to pick up on it and what was going on, and she did. And she told me that I had a gift, and I was a medium, and this is now the deceased trying to communicate with me. Because I also had, I would get psychic attacks and dreams, and I had a dream with this deceased guy in it. Now, long story short, he was connected to my daughter's father. I wasn't with him anymore through his girlfriend. So this was somebody kind of that was direct but indirect. So I didn't know anything about this person. So indirect enough, but direct in the way that I could get the message across to my daughter's dad.

And so when I told him about it, he was like, all right, I'll go ask if this is, and I'm like, this guy died in a car accident. He has blonde's hair. He's young around 17. You know, just the whole description, whatever I received is what I gave. He comes back a week later to see my daughter. And he's like, Jen, I don't know what that was. I asked so-and-so about it, and that's her friend's brother. He just died that way.

That's what he looks like, the whole thing. And I'm like, whoa. And so that, in conjunction with the other things that were starting to happen to me, that's what brought me to the medium. And she told me I have a gift. They're trying to communicate with me, and I need to help people with that. Here's a card. A woman that, when I referenced the divination group that I was in,

she leads this divination group. You need to go there and grow. You know, grow your gift. You know, I say it's not psychic university, but it was a divination class where you're with like-minded people who was doing crystal readings, aura, the whole kitten caboodle, right? And this you might find interesting. This woman literally, the whole thing is witchcraft. Yeah, it's a ritual. Sounds like it.

You know, the crystal ball. Yeah. And she was like the cutest little woman. and it was in her house, and she was so sweet and nice. And she had us all stand together, like a kumbaya moment, right? And we're all standing in a circle. And she decides to say the Lord's Prayer, or as you would know, the Our Father. Because after all, that's the most powerful prayer protection, she told us,

right before she's about to practice divination. Wow. I mean, but this is the deception, Michael, that people really do need to know, like, how deceptive it is, because they're going to use God words and even prayers and that's another way to suck you into something that is so demonic. Well, that's all New Age, right? New Age uses some real religious language and then jumbles it up with all sorts of demonic stuff. Yes.

Which is, you know, it says it in the Bible that, you know, Lucifer can come, Satan can come as an angel of light. Yes, that's right. So, okay, you're doing this, you're going to psychic university, you're progressing in your training to be a psychic. Yeah. have two questions. One, does it pay very well? Yes. Yes. And I thought I was the nice guy, which at the time, you know, I mean, I am the nice guy, but I didn't want people, I wanted to be able to reach all people. So I wasn't going to charge with some of the other psychics. I mean, you're talking hundreds of dollars for a reading, for a reading. So I was not as many hundreds of dollars, but I was a couple of hundred. $100 or so a reading. Not in the beginning. I started very little and then I just built up. And I then led my own divination classes. And you're getting, and let me tell you something, it's addictive. That's the whole thing. It's addictive. My clients never left me alone. I mean,

and my whole business was word of mouth. That was because of the accuracy. I shouldn't be quoting it, but you know what I mean? That's insightful because I don't, I'm not saying that all psychological therapy is bad. I think a lot of it is, maybe there's a comparison to be made here between that and the psychics. But the way I know there's a bad psychologist is when someone goes to him for 30 years. And someone says, oh, I've been to my psychologist. I say, well, I guess it didn't work. Or same thing with pharmaceuticals. I'm not against all drugs. But the drug needs to work, it needs to cure you, it needs to help fix your problem. If you just keep taking the drug and your problem doesn't get better, maybe your problem gets worse, you're addicted.

Well, that's not medicine. Yeah, that's right. That's a drug addiction. Right. And so of course, if the psychic came in and fixed your problem, well, I guess that wouldn't, that person wouldn't be a psychic, and the powers that control the psychic experience wouldn't be who they are either. Well, you hit the nail on the head.

It's a hamster wheel, but that's what it is. what it is, but they're getting a taste of something that fulfills them for 50 minutes. Yeah. And then because it's not what they're really needing, right? They're looking for peace. They're looking for joy. They're looking for answers. They're looking for wisdom.

They're looking for knowledge. But they're going to the wrong team for that. They're going to the demonic side of this, not to God. So everything that they're looking for, the devil will promise you, but he can't really deliver. Right. So you're on that hamster wheel. And then you get, and it escalates, Michael. Like, you start with the tarot cards, even my own life.

Then it goes to numerology, astrology, psychic mediumship. I had my palms read three million times. I even did some witchcraft spells with a couple of friends. It wasn't really my particular, you know. Expertise. Correct. Forte. Right.

But I did. What kind of spells? It was like, one of my friends, she was like, oh, let's do this money spell. Like, really? Like, just to get more money? Just to get more money, yeah. Isn't it interesting that how that always goes with it when you think about anything demonic? Like it goes with all like the greed, the pride, the money.

It's really base kind of things. You have to like put the, and then you have to cleanse things. Crystals. I did chakra balancing. Yeah. I only hear about this from my white liberal lady friends, the chakras and whatever. What is that? Yeah.

Well, chakra is in Sanskrit, it means wheels. So it's a part of the Hindu. Yeah. belief system that they believe you have something like 144 chakras, but the seven primary are from the top of your head to the base of your spine. So this wheel represents energy, like it's a wheel of energy. And when it's moving around the right way and when it's open, then you would have ideal physical health, emotional health, and psychic health and spiritual health, right?

So like the third eye, you've probably heard of that before, the third eye. The Kundalini spirit. Kundalini spirit. Now that's part of the chakra too because it's in the shape of a serpent from the top of your head down, right? And people claim to have this kundalini experience when it's unraveling. And it's like this, not to say cathartic, it's not cathartic, it's a little bit more exciting than that. That's a family show, you know. Yeah, so we'll leave it at that part out, or if you want.

That's elusive enough. It drives people crazy, but it will also drive you crazy. And that's when you see people being knocked down, being knocked over, out of order, out of control. And you know that's demonic because, you know, the fruit of the spirit is self-control. Right. Right. You know, so what I'm trying to say is that all these new age practices always intermingle and lead to the next thing. So you're engaged in all of these weird practices.

Does it ever dawn on you that this is a bit odd, like crystal balls and stuff? It, um, no. No. It didn't seem odd. It just seemed, like I said, when I saw the scary things, I had sleep paralysis. That was frightening, really frightening. I wouldn't have known that's what it was at the time. I had it once. Did you? And it's spooky sleep paralysis. Yes, it is. Because you can't, you're totally awake, but you can't move. And I heard, I don't know, I heard some scary thing. I don't remember exactly what it was. Did you see a demon? I didn't see a demon. But I heard what sounded kind of demonic. And I didn't heard from one. Yeah, it really freaked me out. And so I woke up, I said, what hell was that?

Wow. And, you know, don't forget, I'm, at this point, I was reverting back to the church. So I'm coming out of atheism. I'm, but at that point I would say I'm a Christian, you know, and I, so I believed in all this stuff. And I said, what, you know, what? Did I just hear a demon or something? And Googled it and discovered this phenomenon called sleep paralysis. So what did you?

I was like, like you, you know, you're wide awake, but I saw the demon standing right in front of my bed. and he manifested as a black shadowy figure, which you may hear a lot because they manifest that way a lot. Kind of like the Grim Reaper without the... Without the sickle? Yeah. Yeah. And just staring at me and it was just like a...

Like this. And then he's gone. And I was... That I was... That was troubling. That was troubling. But because I still believed that I had the power to light the same...

you know, light the candles, do the, I could just, this could pass me by. That was just an aspect of it. And maybe I need to do something a little bit more. Maybe I need to get more crystals. Maybe I, you keep going to the problem for the solution in the new age. Right, right, of course. The other thing I've heard, this is the related question to, does it pay, is I've heard that sometimes government agencies will enlist psychic mediums. Is that real? I believe it is because I saw somebody on TikTok. I'm a TikTok creator. And I saw somebody on TikTok that he's a medium,

and they enlisted him. And he was, I think he had had a government job in the past to find a missing boy. The missing boy, thank God, was found and is alive, and the medium provided some information for them. And I think this is. He's great to bring it up because his information was accurate and led to finding the missing boy. But here's the thing.

Demons saw the boy. They knew where he was. So this guy is so connected, if you will, to the demonic, they're feeding him information left and right. Why not? And so there's a good end that comes out of that. They find this missing boy. Well, but couldn't that good end have been had through God? Right.

Right. Yeah, look, I don't... Like, what's the alternative? Right, I don't think that good ends justify immoral meetings. You know, I think that very notion has gotten us into a whole lot of trouble. I believe in all this stuff. I think it's all real. I think that the Bible doesn't say don't consult mediums and necromancers, not because it's all fake and silly, but because it is real and bad and we shouldn't do it. Yes. But for people who don't believe that this stuff, happens. What do you say to them? What if for the people who say, oh, this lady was just

crazy and having all sorts of kooky experiences, and I'm glad she's normal now? You can't even, you can't get away with that one. And trust me, I have to go into this a lot with what I do, just being out there. I start with my testimony. I'll tell people my testimony, and I'll explain, I'll sit there and say, listen, if you and I just met today, and I would have given you a reading. I don't have to, well, you're, they would say, well, you're, they would say, well, probably Googled or whatever. Okay, so take back that example. Just your, your... Someone without a wiki page, though. Yeah, there you go. Somebody without that. Not that I even knew how to work technology. And also, I don't think we even had certain things when I was doing it,

but anyway, I digress. I would say, listen, I sat before strangers and was able to get information about them. I never met them. And like I said, even in random places, I would just go out and I just started hearing chatter about people. And that was tough because then I had to decide, am I going to go up to this person and ask them if I can give them this information, or am I not going to do that? I mean, these are perfect strangers to me. Would you go up to them sometimes? Oh, yeah. You just walk up to someone say, hey, by the way, you know, you're... I'm a psychic. I get information, and I just heard something about you. Is it okay to give you? And of course, everybody's like, yes. They want it. They want the information. So I just try to do

it from a relatable way, Michael. Like if someone says, oh, no, this is all crazy. Say, listen, I get why you think that way. And please don't insult people with mental illness because it's not mental illness. Do you know what I mean? I tell them like, you can't have a controlled, like sit there. Like, okay, here's my client. I have their name and number. That's it. And then boom, I hear about your grandma. You know, that's not mental illness. That's information being given to me about you? You know why I believe the psychics are often real is I was maybe 22 or 23. I was an actor in my wayward youth professional actor. I was on a movie set and made friends with this gal. And we were chatting and she was Italian. We were talking about Dante. So I don't know much about

I love Dante. So I'm talking about Dante and this thing reminded me of this poem and I'm reciting these poems. Okay, bye, see you later. That is it. Didn't see her for quite some time. going in to an audition. And I see this guy. I said, oh, hey, how's it going? I haven't seen you while. She goes, I can't believe I'm seeing. I just went to my psychic. She goes, I just went to my psychic, and I sit down, I've gone to this psychic for a long time. And the first thing she says to me, she says, who's Dante? And this really freaked me out. And I was, at the time, coming out of my atheism, reverting to the church. And the thing that freaked me out about it is not that the psychic knew that we talked about Dante or whatever, because that's a very odd thing

to bring up. It's that psychics were real. That's what freaked me out. Right. I said, oh, I guess there's more in heaven and earth than is dreamt of in our philosophy, Horatio. It was a psychic on Long Island, actually. Really? Maybe you knew her. We'll have to talk about that after when we're not on camera. Probably did. We were a very close circle. We read each other. A lot of us mediums. A lot of us came from the same divination group. Not that it was at all different times and kind of like a hub. Long Island is loaded with psychics. I don't know if it's water or what. I'm only careful. I grew up in Westchester, which is just north of the city, and I used to hear about these things, that there was occult activity in some of the towns

in Westchester. Turns around me. And I kind of wrote it off. I said, oh, whatever, that's kind of nonsense. And I don't know. And now in my old age, I go back and I think about these things, And I hear more people say that there is a lot of this activity around New York. There is. I honestly, I don't know. It's so accepted. It's so accepted. I mean, you're seeing a lot of metaphysical stores popping up on Long Island.

I mean, Queens and Manhattan, every half block. There's a palm reader. You know. But Long Island, now you're seeing full on. psychics with similar, you know, pictures on their, on their storefronts and metaphysical shops with the crystals and everything. I mean, there's one right by my church. It's crazy. It really is. But we live in a culture now that is, I hate to say it, but so godless. Like, God is being pushed out. And less of God means more of you and more of the demonic. And then, you know, wanting, like I said before,

wanting that knowledge, wanting, right? Wanting power. But so what? I kind of live through it, so maybe I should ask myself this question. But why, we live in an age where people say, you believe in God, wow, how stupid are you? You're so backwards and dumb, your knuckle-dragging, troglodyte. But then all the really fancy people who say that believe in all this crap, pardon my French, like the Reiki and the crystals and the psychics and everything, and they'll go, they'll have psychics,

they'll go to spirit cooking dinners at the highest echelons of American power. And I think, hold on, you think that I'm gullible for believing a religion that took over the entire world with 500 eyewitnesses to the resurrection and an unbroken line going back to the apostles and to our Lord himself and where I just go to church on Sunday, like a normal person. And you think I'm a nut for doing that. But you're going out and you think you're talking to dead people and you're playing around with crystals and weird witch ladies. My question is how can you be that gullible to fall for all that stuff, but then think you're too scientific and empirical and serious to believe in God? Yeah, I know. That one gets me too, because when I deal with the people on my TikTok,

I'm like, well, you already know that there's something supernatural. So I would, you know, I would say you already know there's a spiritual realm. You're not completely ignorant to the fact of the spiritual realm. You're diving in there with the yoga, with the, well, let's be honest, too. Some of it is just, they're so completely deceived because they believe that yoga is just breathing and stretching. They believe that Reiki is just a healing modality and the answer to all their problems, like anxiety and all that stuff. But the other side of it, when you think about it, the part that they do know, and they're wanting the spiritism part of it, they find it very intriguing, the paranormal, they are subscribing to the spiritual realm,

but they're not subscribing to an authority. So they're still, it's like a baby God theology, right? They're their own authority. Yes. Yeah, yeah, right. Individualism. Yes, yeah. A friend said to me recently, the culture's idea of the Holy Trinity is me, myself, and I. Isn't it true? Wow. And it's something, you know, we mock especially the atheists on the left. Tends to be there more in the left. They say, oh, you guys, you're pushing your radical, subjective individualism.

But the right does that too. I mean, the right also has exalted individualism and relativism and the idea that you have some right to believe whatever you want to do, do whatever you want to do, and that's your freedom or something. It's completely antithetical to the classical and Christian conception of freedom, but it is the liberal conception of freedom.

I mean, there's a friend of mine once made a very persuasive argument that the devil in Milton's Paradise Lost is a classical liberal. That that's what Milton is describing, and I think there's quite a lot to that. So this question of authority is really interesting. Like when someone says, well, I'm spiritual but not religious, or, you know, I don't like organized religion, or I don't like, you know, someone making exclusive religious claims. I just want to do my own thing. Right. It's like saying, it's like saying I'm really interested in myself. I grant that there is this whole realm.

I just don't care what God says about it. Right. It's so right. That's so true. That's what spirituality is. That's when people call themselves spiritual. That's exactly what that is. I think even John McArthur mentioned that in his Ben Shapiro interview.

He said, spirituality is you not subscribing to? any authority. You make the rules. You get to decide what's good and what's bad. And I wonder, what do they think really happens when you die, though? You know what I mean? Right. Like, what do you think really happens? Well, I guess if you can speak to the dead through the mediums, then you believe you're going to the other side. And it's just fine. And that's what's said, Michael. That's actually, that, you know, that's what breaks my heart. Because you and I both know that we're sinners that need a savior. Yeah. You know, and that's through Christ. that we, because we do go on. I mean, this isn't the, this isn't the last stop, you know,

it's like a, and it's a blip on the radar. Yeah. And that's why I'm so, yes, exactly, and that's why I'm so passionate about exposing it. So when you were a psychic professionally, did you help people? No. You didn't? No. Can I explain that? Yeah, please. Because people think that the psychic is helping. I believed I was helping people for those moments that they were connecting through their grief, they were grievous, they're lonely. Even the people that were just looking for the job or, you know, needing guidance or insight, it's not helpful because you're including them in a demonic practice. You're deceived and you're helping to deceive them. The devil's using, he used me as a pawn and that's what he uses psychics as a pawn to do his dirty work.

And then once that person has come for the reading, now they've opened the demonic door. And then you want to talk about some scary business. Demonic oppression. Possession is rare. I know that's a whole big thing. We had a long interview with an exorcist. And there's a distinction here between demonic possession, vexation, oppression, temptation, which is the most common one of us.

But that is a consequence that's guaranteed once you open the. the daughter of the demon. It's guaranteed. However, it's going to, I always say that the devil attacks, the demonic attacks are personal. Just like Jesus died for us personally, we have a personal faith with him. Those demonic attacks are personal because what's going to get to me is going to be different than what gets to you, right? So whether it's anxiety, confusion, the sleep paralysis, the nightmares, doubts, things start going wrong in your life. Because, listen, the devil doesn't care about you. It doesn't care about you. He doesn't care about you. He hates God and he hates man.

He's willing to give you a little bit of what you want for now and let you pay the price, let you pay the consequences of it. So it's really a very dangerous thing. So you're not helping anybody when you're a psychic at all. So when did you come out of it? Was it a, you know, Saul on the road to Damascus, come to Jesus moment, or was it a, you're kind of starting to recognize something's off here? I was, it was the end of my 36. It was the end of my 36th year, so I was late in the game already. And let me tell you something.

The demonic oppression on me in that moment was about to cause a destruction like no other in that moment. I'm not even going to call it the end of myself moment. It was worse than that. And I cried out to Jesus Christ. And I know now that's really the Holy Spirit, who even was able to nudge my heart, to draw me to do that. And I just cried out. I cried out his name. And I had a peace that came over me all of a sudden.

And, of course, like anybody might say, well, you don't know what that peace was, whatever. No, I knew that was Jesus. But so, no, it was not a pool. It was not a soul pool conversion because this took a little bit of time. I hadn't heard the gospel. I hadn't read the Bible. I just, yeah, no, heard, no. I mean, I know people say, well, what do you mean?

You went to church. I mean, I was culturally Catholic. That's how I was raised. So, you know, we were the lasagna, we would be the antipasta. Christmas Eve, maybe, definitely Christmas Day. Sometimes, some Christmases, not every. So, no, I really, that's why I said, I didn't know that I was a sinner that needed a savior. I didn't know that I didn't know any of that.

So I cry out to Jesus. He shows up and I don't know what any of this means. But I knew that I didn't want to be a psychic anymore. But I didn't know why. I had no idea why. So I'm like, okay, what do I do? do now. So I start reading books from the library just about experiences. So I further got deceived. I read some really sketch books. They were not good. They were not good. And so I became what I

call spiritually vulnerable for a period of time. I stopped doing readings, but then I went back to it. Because it was all I knew. I wasn't convinced yet that it was bad. I didn't know why I didn't want to do it anymore. and I just changed the way I spoke. In the beginning, I was like, listen, you know, there's a God, and God's in control, and then I go into the reading. But God didn't give up on me. When I was, I turned 37, a friend came over from the divination group. We had become very good friends.

I read her family, her friends. She comes over for dinner, and little did I know. This woman had been saved since the last time I had seen her. So she starts telling me about this church and about Jesus. And I'm like, no, I'm good. You go to your church. I'm like, what? I passed.

I passed on the church. I passed on the whole thing. I said no. And then a month later, I woke up on a Sunday and I said, I want to go with you to that church today. I don't know why, but I want to go. And that was the day that Jesus really reached me. He reached me. I'm singing this song.

Jesus saved me. And I flashed back. Now, this was 10 months later from that first moment. that I cried out to him, always with the hands. So I'm Italian. Yeah, let's see. This is, it's just part of the language. You're used to this because you know, yeah.

Yeah, and I'm singing, and Jesus saved me, and I flashed back to that moment, and it was like him giving me that confirmation, and the Holy Spirit just came into my heart, and I heard the gospel, and I was set free. It was amazing. I just started crying in that church. I wonder if it's easier. for people to convert from occultism than it is from atheism. Oh, that's interesting.

Or the opposite, you know, because at least you knew that, like, spirit is real. You didn't think we're just bags of meat, you know. You're kind of under, and you knew it. And you'd had pretty vivid experiences of this. So I don't know. I don't know. Or there's a deception that goes along with that, too, that maybe is harder to break out of. So you come out of it.

you now say, okay, that stuff's bad. I believe in our Lord and, you know, want to be saved. But you just lost your job. It's not only that you lost your fake religion, you lost your job. Yes. I'm not going to say there wasn't a little anxiety there. Yeah. And I was the breadwinner at the time. And, but I couldn't just, well, two things. One, the gravity of my salvation, Michael, when I realized what Jesus set me free from, because the first thing the Holy Spirit, Spirit did was lead me to the Word of God. I mean, I'm talking 15 minutes later after that church service. I'm home now. I'm Googling what does the Bible say about psychic mediums? And the list comes up. And I'm like, wow. Shoot, I should have Googled this earlier. And Deuteronomy, 18, 10,

to 12, which really gives us the practices that fall under witchcraft. And the word medium was there. And I was like, God's talking to me. That's me. Wow, I have to quit my job. I just have to do it. Jesus set me free. If I had died as a psychic medium, you know where I was going. It was not to be with the Lord Jesus. So he gave me that opportunity. He gave me a chance to be saved and have eternal life. Lord Jesus, wherever you lead me, I'm going and I'm getting rid of whatever I have to get rid of. And I did a full repentance. I mean, I quit my job. I met with the pastor of that church. And he was cool. He was like, look, I don't pay your bills. He's like, but I'd be a bad pastor if I told you to continue, you know, being a psychic. And I'm like, no, I already made the

decision. I can't do it. It's clearly against God. I mean, he's clear from the beginning of the word to the end of it. And I know that's not because he's an angry grandpa. He's not trying to be a buzzkill. It's because it's to protect us, because it's demonic. Do you miss it ever? Never. You don't. No. You don't miss the feeling of I had this power or this special thing, this secret knowledge. No, I don't, I don't miss doing anything for the devil. I couldn't. I love the Lord, Michael. So it's not a temptation. But in that, a guy could be a crack addict. Right.

And recognize, okay, this is terrible for me and maybe, let's say, his giving it up, it's part of a religious conversion. So it's really all grounded in God. But he'll still, if there's crack on the table, you know, he might still be tempted by it. Right. Or you could, or with lust or, I don't know, or like five cupcakes on the table. It would be the same thing if you sin is gluttony. you don't feel that pull? No, and I wonder if it's because, if you think about it,

you can't drink from the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons, right? So you can't serve God and the devil at the same time. If you have a sin like that, an addiction, rather, a bondage, a chain, like drugs or food, it's a sin, but it's not directly serving the devil. Do you know what I mean by that? I mean... It's not so direct, whereas, like, you know, when you're a psychic medium, I guess the sin there would be pride, which is the Queen of All Vice, and you're like literally.

You're literally communicating a demon. You're like, hi. It's hard to just dabble in that one. Yeah. Like if you're a glutton and you eat the cupcake, it's like, okay, I'm sorry, Lord, I need your help with this. But if you're making a choice to talk to a demon, I mean, you're a little more clear and extreme. Yeah. That's a good point. So you've come. out of it now. And I suppose also back when you were a medium, you could say, well, I can bring you this kind of hope in that I'll talk to your dead uncle or something. But now you can say, look, I'm not really a part. I'm not special exactly, but I can bring you a real hope, which is grounded in history and the incarnation and the resurrection and the crucifixion of the resurrection, which is just called evangelism. That's what all Christians are called to do. It's a little more grounded,

Yes. Because the thing that's really striking about you, and if I didn't already believe that the psychic stuff is real, I would probably believe it talking to you, because you seem normal. Thank you. And I've noticed this on this series, we've disproportionately, even if we didn't start out this way, we end up talking about spiritual topics, and talking to you, or talking to my exorcist friend, Mother Rehill. The thing that strikes you when you talk to exorcists is how not weird they are. Right. They sound like plumbers when they talk about their job. Wow. And I find this even if I get a little bit, I don't know, a little spooked, I feel like

there's something a little off and I just say a prayer. Often I'll say the St. Michael Prayer, you know, which was Pope Leo the 13th, wrote it, in a flash, in a flash of inspiration because he seemed to believe that the occult was really on the rise. The prayer is St. Michael, the Archangel, Defend us in Battlebillera defense against the wickedness and snares of the devil. rebuke him we humbly pray and do thou prince of the heavenly host by the power of God thrust into hell Satan and all the evil spirits who prowl about the world seeking the ruin of souls

and that's a really it encapsulates a lot of what we're talking about with spiritual warfare and but I just say it and then I think I don't know to me I think of the demons like their bugs like they're cockroaches I don't like them I don't want to see them I don't I'm not that scared of them but I'm not you know I'm not I'm still a little bit scared of them like I don't want I don't want them around me you know and and there's something really matter of fact about that Mm-hmm. I appreciate what you said, first of all, thank you that you feel that I'm relatable, and I think that's what you're trying to say there. Yes, yeah. You don't seem kooky. It doesn't seem weird. I'm literally like I go on my TikTok live with a cup of coffee and, you know, and I want to be relatable and share my experiences so that people do understand how real it is and the danger of it.

and the devil is prowling around seeking to whom he may devour. I mean, he is. I mean, the Bible tells us that, but it's true. This is a real and present danger. And I don't mean to go off, you know, veer off a little bit, but, you know, especially with the spiritual blindness that we're seeing today in our world, you know, this godless world. And as God is, you know, shoved over here, you know, the devil is being front and center.

You know, you can see it in the culture. But yeah, I think... It's not just that God is being shoved to the side by people who are actively doing the work of demons or consciously doing it. It's so much more subtle and sad. The separation of church and state. This is something that our founding fathers did not establish. The line comes from one letter from Thomas Jefferson, who was one of the bigger libs among the founding fathers. But John Adams said that the country is going to be grounded in Christian morality.

John Jay said, thank goodness, this is a Christian nation. We've got one nation under God in our currency. It's in the national anthem. America understood itself as a Christian nation for most of our history until the middle of the 20th century. We start with this idea we're a liberal democracy. We need a separation of church and state. Well, okay, if you're saying we're going to banish God from the public square, good luck. Let's see how that works out for you.

Hasn't worked out very well in my experience. Right, exactly, exactly. And that is, I think, what's making it so prevalent today, the witchcraft, if I may, it's, yeah, because you're not seeing the Lord front and center. Like I said, you're not. So it just, hey, okay, so here you go. I mean, is the nation under God's judgment? I think I was watching, well, I was watching.

I'm pretty sure John McArthur said that in one of his sermons during the time of the C-word. You know, that... The unutterable five-letter C word. I didn't say it. Nobody heard me. Didn't say a thing. But being under God's judgment, I mean, it's like, hey, you know, okay, you want to live this way, you want to do things without me, go for it. You know, and like you said, how do you like it now? How's it going for you, you know?

Right. You know, there's the psychic aspect to all of this, but you mentioned something at the top, which is there are sometimes physical manifest. stations of this occult stuff that you've experienced. And I think that's a level where some people will say, okay, now I really don't believe, I don't believe that someone could be thrown out of a chair. I don't believe that lights could flicker on and off without a natural explanation. But you've seen it. I've seen it. And I still see it from time to time. So let me explain that. As a Christian, we are not exempt from demonic oppression. Right? So we can go through a spiritual attack, and I've gone through some spiritual attacks,

even, you know, fairly recently. The difference is for me, of course, then I know to call upon the name of Jesus and, you know, put on the armor of God and pray and read the Bible more and do all that kind of stuff. But I've had sleep paralysis. I've had a psychic attack a couple months ago. What's that like? So a psychic attack, this all happened in one day. I actually, so I had a dream in the morning. Now, the thing with the dreaming is that it's not that the devil is, you know, getting into your mind. That's not what he's doing.

He's not slipping into your brain. That would be like a possession. Rather, I say that you're kind of in like in between states. And whenever you're in like a vulnerable state, there you can be attacked. Okay, you're vulnerable. Your guard isn't up. Do you know what I mean? Oh, I do.

In that I'm much less prone to vice and a little bit better at practicing virtue. Most of the time, unless I'm really overworked or really tired or really stressed or really, those are the moments when I feel I'm more, I'll lose my temper or something. When I'm in my daily life, I'm a lot better at it. But there are these moments when, you know, you're vulnerable. Yeah, definitely. And so that happened. I believe that's the state that you're in, sometimes in these dream states,

or you're half awake, half asleep, whatever. So I had this dream, and the dream was the dream. I was with my aunt and uncle, and then my cousin popped in the dream. And she's like, hey, I want you to come with me this weekend on a cruise to a ruba or whatever. I'm like, you know, I don't like boats. I'm not going on this cruise, but I'm fine.

Leave it alone. I didn't even think about the dream. And I had been thinking about seeing my aunt and uncle. So I'm like, okay, that's just, you know, day residue. you know, I was thinking about seeing them. Later that day, I saw a demon manifested on my front porch, and it was kind of a gray figure. And here's the thing.

It's not how we are third dimensional, you know, how we're solid like that. You can see a figure, but it's misty. So it's not like, and I wouldn't call it a ghost. I'd call it a demon. And later that night, I was talking. to my cousin on the phone, her brother, and he said, oh, Jen, you know, you really should come. I said, yeah, I had the dream. I think it's because I'm thinking about it or whatever. And he said, no, you really should come. But not this weekend because Angela's going on a cruise to Aruba or a trip to Aruba or whatever.

I'm like, ugh, no, no, why did I? And I know that might sound so mundane, but it's something I had no idea about. And that was, I mean, that was like right there. And I saw the demon that That's a psychic. It's right there. No, no, that makes, because for a drug addict, if he gets a temptation in a dream, he's thinking about drugs. For a, you know, a guy who deals with lust, he has a temptation in a dream. It's going to be a chick in a bikini. For a former psychic medium who has a temptation in a dream, what's it going to be?

I assume it's going to be a temptation. Right. Toward psychic readings, which is what happened. Yeah, I don't know. Well, I don't know if I don't know. would have called it a temptation, though. I was... You had literally just got one. I was, yeah, it was just... But it made sense because the whole thing was a demonic attack. I've also had where I was up in the middle of the night, and I heard a demon, but it sounded like my dad's

voice talking to me. And I know that sounds... I know I'm really putting myself out there because I probably sound crazy. Yeah, I believe all this stuff. I mean, I believe people can be deceived, too, but I believe all this stuff is possible, at this point, though, you know what it is? I have good discernment. I can tell when something is demonic and when something is not. And I don't think there's a demon behind every corner. I mean, I'm not that person. Like, you know, but when I see it and I hear it, I know it because I lived it for years. I can tell the difference. If I get so serious about it, I can tell the difference. I'm not a crazy person. No offense to anybody who is, but that's not what this is. There is a demonic war. There's a demonic battle. There's a demonic attack.

We know that Ephesians 612 tells us we don't wrestle against flesh and blood. Right. We wrestle against the principalities, the cosmic powers, and the darkness in the heavenly places. Guys, that's a, guys, I'm like on my TikTok. Michael, that is a rank of demons. That's what's out there. That's what's going to. It's an invisible battle, but it is being fought, and we are part of it.

When you talk about the gray shadowy figure, I'm reminded, Alistair Crowley, the infamous occultist, He did a sketch once of a demon. He had this vision of a demon, and he just sketched out the demon. And the demon looked, his vision of a demon looked like what we would call aliens, like little gray, little green men, you know, with big eyes and big head. And it just looked like out of any alien movie was, but also was dark and shadowy and gray and kind of like what you're described. Wow, interesting. I never saw any of his work. Thank God. I don't recommend it. But it is spooky in that.

You hear about all of these now paranormal UFO type things. I think the UFO stuff is nonsense. I agree with it. I think the notion of extraterrestrial aliens is nonsense. Totally agree. You do. So is that demons? I think.

Or is it just people? I think that if you're somebody that you see something yourself, like you see something manifest, that could possibly be a demon. And I don't mean like you're seeing a spaceship or something and you're seeing a little guy come out. No. I mean, really, like you're seeing flickering lights or something like that when you're outside or whatever. I mean, I'm really stretching this. But I think it's mostly nonsense.

That's what I think. The alien. People are just kind of, you know, you can imagine things. People hallucinate. And I love how that's so acceptable too. But God, you know, not so much. Aliens are great. It's like, what's happening.

Well, I always say aliens. It's just angels and demons for liberals, for materialists who refuse to believe in spiritual things. So they say, oh, it's got to be, I believe in every single religious or mythical story I've ever heard in history, but they've got to have, like, green flesh. As long as they have green flesh and spaceships, it's totally fine. But this continues to happen to you. When I reverted from atheism to the church, it was the most intense. bizarre period of vexation, temptation in my whole life.

And I've heard this from a lot of people, though, that it's at that moment when you might be making a change and pursuing a better path. That's when all the guns are going to be aimed at you. Yes, absolutely. And actually, and a lot of people ask me this, when I was set free and I quit my job, as a psychic medium,

I started counseling with the pastor at that church church that I started going to. And so how it worked was there were three pastors, senior pastor was away one week, and so this pastor, the one that was counseling me, he was saying the sermon. I was so excited to get into church. I'm only like a few weeks in.

I'm a baby Christian. I'm there in church, so excited. And my pastor who was counseling me, Pastor Jonathan, he comes up there to say the sermon. I don't know that they take turns. Like, I don't know how this works, right? And he starts saying the sermon. Michael, everything, I mean, I started getting information about him psychically.

And I thought, you know, I didn't know the deal. I didn't know about the spiritual battle. I thought once I repented, I was just, okay, we're done. Bye, see you later. No, I was attacked spiritually, psychically, sitting there, information about Pastor Jonathan. I really felt like I was freaking out. I felt like, why is this happening to me? I felt scared.

Was I doing something wrong? I met with him that Tuesday like I always would, and I was hesitant to tell him because I thought, am I like a bad Christian? Like what, you know? And I thank God that I really was driven by the Holy Spirit to tell him and not be isolated with that, another scheme of the devil, I'm sure. And I told him and he said, well, you can tell me what was said. We won't give the demon any glory, but you can just tell me what we said.

I repeated. I told him what information I got. He said, I'm not going to lie that, hit a nerve. He said, I'm not going to lie to you. He's like, but, you know, how the devil does things is always like what you said in the beginning. You know, there's going to be some truth with the lies and how he twists things, but there's always going to be something there. Is he giving new information like, you know, Jonathan just baked a pie for the widow across the street? Or is he saying, no, this guy did this sin and he's a really bad guy.

No, it was something about his life when he was a child and particularly, really, really. relationships that he had and the feelings he had about those relationships. I know this guy, like, what at this point? I don't know, four weeks. He's counseling me. I'm not interviewing him about his family. I know nothing about his family. I'm just going there to listen to the sermon. That's all I'm doing, right? And I got that information, and it was really personal. And that's why I'm sure it hit the nerve that it did for him. But at least then, thank God I gave him that. And we were able to talk about it, because then he was able to help me with the power of prayer and what to do applying those biblical principles when you're being attacked. So this notion that the psychics, when they're hearing from demons, that it's truth that you can point to that'll spook people out because you say, we were three, you know, this happened, with falsehood.

Yeah. What's the percentage? I mean, how much deception is there and how much truth is there? Okay. Well, anything that they report that has already happened, they can report that. That's going to be true, of course. That's going to be 100% accurate. In order to prove to the person that it's really.

Right. Now everything else that they say, because now you're hanging on to every word that comes out of their mouth now, right? Because they were able to tell you what you did last week. They were able to tell you your mom and dad and things like Dante and this, that, and the other, right? Now you're like, oh, okay, I wonder what else they're going to say. So anything that's a prediction is already a lie. Even if they end up coming true, Michael, and I'll tell you why. Because they don't know everything only God does.

Only God does. But are they good guessers? Absolutely. Do they get their hand in it by manipulating, by almost creating the atmosphere, the climate for you to do? do, you know, kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy, you know what I mean? So, like, you almost end up doing the thing, like the girl with the Ouija board. Right. The girl who, you know, if she's, especially the way she died, it's not so much a prediction as a, you know, a push, right?

A push, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it's not true because they don't know everything. Anything else could, I give this analogy, right? Let's say, I mean, you know, you're married. You know what your wife does Monday to Friday, I'm sure. She does this for 364 days of the year.

On the 365th, you're going to be able to make a prediction. Let's say, it's fresh pasta night. There you go. Hopefully that's a push, too. I'd say, I'd like to put pasta. But you're going to have, you're going to make a prediction. If I asked you to, you would say, well, at 6 a.m., she's going to do this, at 7 a.m., but you're not God, right?

So you don't know for sure. Yeah, yeah. Something different can happen that day. But you've seen, not that you're trying to study her like a creepy demon, Lord willing, Michael. But you're... I'm too oblivious for that. It's not that I'm too virtuous, but I'm certainly too oblivious.

You didn't even notice that my hair got cut. No, I noticed. What are you talking about? But you've seen, like, you've what? You know, this is somebody you know. Like, you can give better than anybody else a good percentage of what she's going to do on a Monday night. Well, you know that.

You're married to someone for long enough. You don't even... You could have a conversation just by looking at each other. You know what he's going to say and she's going to say. Yeah, yeah. So if people can do that, Michael, you take something like demons, a creature that is far more intelligent, sorry human beings, but they are far more intelligent and far more powerful.

And older. And older. There you go. Right, right. I'm struck by what you're saying because there's, it seems like for everything you're describing in the occult, psychic realm, there is a flip side in the saintly realm. So, you know, you're sitting there and you're getting this weird psychic attack. looking at this guy, Pastor Jonathan, there's a charism attested to by the

great saints in history, which is the charism to read souls. Even people have encountered some of these people today who can have an uncanny ability to just read a soul. I don't know how else to say it. And some of them are in religious orders, some of them are in the laity, but you know it's just like I don't know, I don't have that charism, but some people have it. or, you know, the prophets, you know, before the incarnation. The prophets had an ability in a way to tell the future, but also, you know, maybe the more important thing about prophets

is they see the truth in their own time. You know, so the prophets really telling the truth more than he's predicting the future, though you will see that resonate in the future. Is it just like a weird mirror image? Is that what we're saying? Oh, no. It's a deliberate counterfeit. It's a deliberate counterfeit.

Deliberate. The devil is a copycat. Yeah. You know, there's really no other way to say that. He's a copycat, and you are so right. I just spoke about this recently with the new article about Raven Simone. And on her podcast, she was talking about her psychic abilities. Oh, was she?

The girl from the Cosby Show? She's got psychic abilities? Yes, she was later stage costume. She was a little one, wasn't she? She was a really little one. Oh, was she? Oh, yeah, that's right. I keep thinking of her from That So Raven because my daughter is 22, so she was, yeah.

And that's what killed me because you think about that nostalgic feeling towards some of these celebrities that the youth has. And then now they're coming out and they're talking about these things. She's a psychic? Oh, she has, she's addressing her psychic abilities that she's had for quite some time. And one thing she brings up is spirit guides. And so when you're talking about that, I'm thinking about the counterfeit. And to me, a spirit guide is a count, it's a demon, first of all. All psychics, New Ages, have spirit guides, like I said before, to filter in and out,

good and bad spirits, give you psychic information about yourself. Lead you and guide you in wisdom and truth. Doesn't that sound a little bit, minus the psychic part, like the Holy Spirit, like to lead us, like, into truth and good decisions and wisdom? That's who the devil is, though, and he's been doing this for age. He's a big copycat, even if you think of the Exodus, right? When God called Moses with the staff and then Pharaoh called in the sorcerers to come in, right? And they're trying to...

And they do their tricks too, but the sorcerers. See, you know, that's kind of the odd thing. They also performed all sorts of weird little... Yeah, they did, but that's what was cool about, and I hate to say it this way, but it is. Isn't God cool? It was cool how God showed how he was the only one to God with the 10 plagues. Because every time, because they had a god for denial, a god for flies, a god for, where's your god now? Yeah.

You know, like, but that is, he's a trickster, the devil, he's a manipulator, he's a deceiver, he's a liar, and he's a copycat. And like you mentioned before, which is 2nd Corinthians 11, 14, and 15, Satan masquerades. And that's what people need to know, Michael, what all of us need to know. Because we can all be duped. He masquerades as an angel of light. An angel is a messenger. So you've got to be so super discerning. When you hear something that somebody is saying or doing,

because, again, you're not fighting against the flesh and blood, but what are they operating under? What spirits are they operating under, right? So if he's putting on a mask, hey, I'm your mom or dad. I'm coming through in this reading. No, you're a demon. We have to be so on guard.

Yeah. There's this modern notion that in pre-Christian civilizations, all these people, they had such weird, bizarre, mythological systems. You know, they'd worship Jupiter, or they'd have Bacchanals, or they would worship Apollo or Athena or something, or the Middle Eastern, they'd worship the balls or whoever. And, boy, isn't that really kooky. What does that say about those people, that they would worship those gods that aren't real? But in a way they are real, right? They're demons. The traditional view, I think the Augustinian view and the view that prevailed until recent, modern times are very stupid times that we're living in, is that, no, they're real. And these guys just worship demons. And the demons would kind of help them a little bit. Not ultimately. Ultimately, it would really mess them up. But they were real. And the worship that these pagan peoples passed and present would.

give to them is real, and there would be something that would come out of that, like a psychic medium, like, I don't know, any of... Manifesting. Like manifesting, whatever. It's real. And so now we're in this new age, we're told, and I interviewed a guy on this show not long ago who calls himself a shaman. What struck me is he's a very intelligent guy, obviously, and he would say some things

that were true, and some things that were coherent, but mixed in with a lot of things that are very much not true or other things that just seem kind of bizarre. And he wouldn't call himself a new ageer, but he would literally use the language and say, we're in a new age, and he was a new ageer. I have friends and relatives who are into the new age stuff. I think it's a lot more pervasive than people

are willing to admit. Yeah. Do you think that, though? Actually, I'm saying, yeah, but... Oh, I see what you... Yeah. Because I would say, out of 10 people, probably 8 are into it, right? That's what I mean, yeah.

But I wouldn't have said... I would have thought... Like, if you ask people, hey, are you a new ageer? Nine out of 10 would say no. But even... I'm certainly not a new ageer. But I'll say, hey, man, stop harsh in my vibes. And I'll say it somewhat ironically.

But vibes refers to vibrations, right? It refers to an actual new age concept. Right. And we all do that kind of stuff. Right? Don't we all, just even in our quotidian language, we do that. Yeah, yeah, we do. And then hopefully we realize, and then we don't do it again.

You know, but you're absolutely right. Those people won't say they're new ages. They'll just say they're spiritual. Right. Wow. Right? You know it. That's what they'll say.

They'll say they're spiritual. They're just spiritual. I've often mocked the phrase, I'm spiritual, but not religious. but maybe one ought to be harsher with that phrase, because practically speaking, it just is synonymous with, I practice New Age occultism. Yeah.

Yeah, because you're not even willing to say, like, if you asked me, I wouldn't, if you, I'm Christian. I'm not just spiritual. Is there a spiritual? Of course, there's a spirit. I mean, but that, oh, no, I know who I subscribe to. I'm religious.

They say, are you spiritual? I'm religious. Because what's religion? Religion is. a habit that inclines the will to render to God. It's a virtue that inclines the will to render to God that which is owed to him. Amen. And I add on and say, I have a relationship with my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, and how loving, and, you know, you think about that, I hate to say down to earth, but that Jesus wants to have a relationship with us. How amazing is that that God's not just

some puppeteer and dangling us around, but that we have a choice to come to him willingly. And he wants that. He wants us to come to him willingly. On your point of the cheap counterfeits, we've had throughout the church from the very beginning since Christ walked the earth. Sacraments.

What is a sacrament? A sacrament is the meeting of the physical and the metaphysical. It's a thing that we do and that we receive that has a physical component and a spiritual and metaphysical meaning that's alive, that's really happening. And so, you know, you think of Holy Communion or you think of confession or you think of, you know, baptism, obviously baptism. Well, the New Age, the weird occult psychic stuff, they have pseudo-sacraments too, the tarot cards, the readings, the crystals, the sage, whatever. But it's just a cheap knock-on for the real presence of the living God. Mm-hmm. Rituals, they have rituals, the due age. You know, I'm not Catholic, so I, you're, you know, you're informing me of things about, you know, but, um, but the new age, these practices are very ritualistic. And the fact that I even had to look back, like, honestly, I was just the girl next door. I wasn't, like, dressed up in, like, scary looking clothes and things like that. All this to say that looking back and realize I was practicing witchcraft.

Yeah. And you just couldn't even see it. Wow, yeah. The whole thing, even in that divination group, even when I did my owner, when I did readings, I had a ritual. Light the candle, light the sage. I used to get hired to go into people's houses. This is crazy because so many people think this, right? I used to get hired to go into people's houses, smudge the house and read, like, channel while I was smudging to see what souls were trapped in the house. So you would call that like haunted? like a haunted house, right? And you see these shows now, a lot of the shows, right? They're going out with all their paraphernalia, like they're paranormal, like the little radio, the lights on their head, and they're going in there because they're believing

that demons, rather, I'm sorry, that people, they don't, I don't know if any of them call them demons, but that there's activity. Vanessa Hutchins was at like a cemetery. Cemetery with Gigi Hide, and they're there. Hey, how are you? I'm Vanessa Hutchins. Who are you? And anyway, that was a whole long thing.

No, but it's so striking because I didn't even notice this, right? I don't even see half the thing. I see them and it doesn't even register. How weird it is. And especially now, we look back at history. And people always say, oh, those awful people in the past, I would have been so much better had I been around them. And one of the moments that keeps cropping up, is the Salem Witch Trials, which were a bit odd, and it was these kind of more eccentric Puritans who practiced this thing. You know, in the great history of Christianity, witch trials are a little bit of an odd thing. But it raises this question, you raised this question, which is, would you know a witch if you saw one? You don't look like a witch. No. But you were practicing which, I don't know. Yes. Would you really? No. The answer to you're right. You're right. You're provoking some good stuff here, Michael. No, you wouldn't.

And isn't that a great part of the deception, though? Isn't that a great part of the devil's plan, right, to use people that just, hey, girl next door, a guy next door, really nice people that really just want to help you, really compassionate people. Hey, it must be okay then. Because now we look back, we say, well, obviously those women weren't witches. I think, first of all, you don't know that. Right.

And I'm not advocating for witch trials necessarily. But one, you don't know that they weren't witches. And the other thing is, you person in the modern age, you don't believe in witchcraft, or at least you tell yourself you don't believe, you're not conscious of this. They all did. Right. Really, everyone for all of human history until about five seconds ago believed in such a thing as witchcraft. But the people at the time, the accusers and the accused, at the time of the Salem Witch,

they did believe in that. And I don't know. The fact that everyone, for all of history, everywhere on Earth, has believed in this kind of a thing. That's such a good point. And now you're seeing people literally like, hey, I'm a Capricorn.

Oh, I don't do witchcraft. It's like, what? That's so Pisces of you to think that I'm a witch. Hold on, wait. I can't be with you because our signs don't match up. I don't think so. I don't think your chakras are making you accused of witchcraft. But I'm not in witchcraft.

Yeah, come on. All right, bye, I've got to go get on my broomstick now. So many people have the blinders on now. You make such a great point. People really did know. And you think about, so is that being pushed out, you think, because the Bible and Christianity, I mean, we see where the devil is on the rise. I mean, we could see that through.

I mean, come on. I mean, between the Grammys and all these concerts and these satanic rituals, oh, that's just choreography. Spirit cooking at the Hillary Clinton campaign. Yeah, it's weird. It's weird because I'm not accusing Hillary of being a witch. We all know that already. I'm not, that's not nice. But when those emails came out from her server, her completely unsecured server, it, for me, it's troublesome when major politicians are engaging in overt, or major political

apparatchiks, people around the politicians are engaging in overt occultism and Satanism. But even for the person who doesn't believe in any of this and they think that I'm deluded and you're crazy and they're watching, but they're still watching this for some reason, I have to ask, Isn't it kind of weird? Like if you don't believe any of it's real, isn't it weird to go, like, have a big stew out of a cauldron with eye of Newt and, you know,

weird spells being cast over? That's at least an odd thing to do. And so also part of the reason I think that people are so blind to it is biblical literacy, religious literacy, is just so cratered in recent memory because we kick the Bible out of schools.

Yes. And because of other problems within the church, that, I mean, I've heard from a professor, a very serious professor at a very serious university, who said, most of his students don't know who Noah is. Wow. That's shocking. I mean, I even did when I was a kid.

I was born in 77, I mean, so we're really going back. But even I did, wow, that's horrible. That really is. But you know, too, Michael, I think that if you conceded to the fact that God is real and you would have to give up those things. And those things are offering you something, right? Am I going off on this one? I don't know. Like the astrology, the tarot cards, all of that, that's been giving you something that you want.

And if you turn to God and conceded that that's demonic and that God is real, well, then again, remember, you're coming to an authority figure, and you're going to have to give up something that has been keeping you very comfortable in your own sin and your own pride. So I think that's a reason why you would want to, oh, no, you're crazy. Oh, no, I'm just going to, this is fine, you know. Because religion is about God, spirituality is about you. And it also, not only is it that you're going to have to give up some of these fun little weird powers or whatever you want, you're also going to have to give up your sins that you enjoy, which I guess are synonymous or there's significant overlap, But you're also going to have to give up all that thing you like to do with that lady down the street.

You're also going to have to give up your greed. You're also going to have to give up that screaming at your uncle or whatever. You're going to have to give up these things that you're drugs and your booze and you're this or you're that if you've got a problem with those things. And that's, you know, it's a big ask when you cultivate habits. Yes, it's a big ask. But I think that's where people, where we, where we, We know that God's commands are not burdensome. They're actually set up for us to live an abundant life, which is amazing.

So the very thing that they're seeking for that peace and that freedom isn't offering any of that, but we have it by giving up those things and coming to the Lord, right? Because we dilute ourselves in a couple ways in modern atheism and modern religion, which is we say, oh, the demons, they don't really give you anything. No, they do. You actually did have psychic powers. Yes. I mean, I believe that.

And people have that. You actually did get something in exchange for your effective worship of demons. And likewise, they'll say, oh, you know, if you're going to worship God, your will, your actions, they don't mean anything. You don't have to do anything. You don't need to practice virtue. You don't need to avoid sin. You don't need to grow in holiness. You don't need to pray.

You know, our Lord didn't say, there is no yoke or burden to following me. He didn't say, leave that crossover on the side and just follow me or don't, whatever. He says, take up your cross and bear it. And he says, my yoke is easy and my burden is light. But it is a yoke. That's right. It's a light burden, but you got to do stuff. That's right.

You know, this is sometimes in modern religion, there's a, in all modern religion, including, I'm sorry to say parts of the Catholic Church, they'll de-emphasize liturgy. There are very, very long passages of multiple books of the Bible talking about liturgy in the Old Testament. How God wants to be worshipped, you think about the Levitical vestments, you think about just the construction of the ark of the covenant, the tabernacle, and it's got to be exactly like this, and it's got to be exactly like this. Even in one step removed liturgically, you talk about the construction of Noah's Ark. the precision with which God says, do this in this way. And it seems to me to come out and say, well, it just doesn't matter how we worship God. You know, we all worship God in our own way, man.

We're all hugging different parts of the elephant. And I'm bold. No, well, you know, I'm not saying that if you say a certain prayer in a certain way, or if you kneel in a certain way, that there you are, that's yourself. Obviously, I'm not saying that. But if you love the Lord and you have a relationship with God and you want to pursue God, then wouldn't a follow-up question be, well, how does the Lord want me to worship him? How does the Lord want me to follow him?

But that takes you out of the realm of spirituality. Completely out. That puts you back in religion. Completely out. Now you even care that God wants anything. You even care. You're so out of new age. You're so out of spirituality.

If you even care. But now, you know, I don't know if you've heard of Christ, kind of. Yes, I have heard. So people have brought this up. I don't really know what it is. So Christ's consciousness is when you will take some of the teaching of Jesus Christ, you know, the fun, loving, what the fun, the loving, mushy part of Jesus. I mean, the peaceful, he's just peace and love. You know, but also. Whatever that means to you, man. Yeah, what, exactly. Yeah, you know. And then you'll go practice yoga and also worship Buddha. It's all. It's all. hey, you know, whatever you want to do. And it's just this idea that you can worship more than one God and just take, that's completely

rejecting Jesus's identity as the son of God, who he is. And once again, it just goes back to you doing you. And after all, right, don't we live in that? Love is love and you do you? Do you know where I first heard the phrase Christ consciousness from a bum in New York late at night? Really? I'd just gotten into the city.

I went to pick up some food at McDonald's. run into this bum and I'm just chatting with the bum, you know, eating hamburgers. And he had an interesting conversation. And he started going off about achieving Christ consciousness. Wow. And I thought, you know, this is the perfect topic for the ravings of an addicted, probably deeply mentally disturbed bum. This is not, you can forgive a guy who has that mental disposition perhaps for going off the deep end. But then you hear it from people who seem like they should have their affairs in order. But it is the idea that it just takes the agency away from the actual Christ and just puts it on your Gnostic ability to

learn secrets and control the universe. Is that basically it? Yeah. Yeah. And it's really subjective. So you'll have different people describing it differently. Some will describe it as, well, we're all children of God, and we know that's not the truth. We're all made in his image, but we're not all his children, trying to raise the vibration, getting that level of enlightenment, and connecting with your own divinity. Oh, you're divine, are you? I don't know. Where's my divinity? I'm digging through my flesh here. And it comes back to that baby God thing again, you know, wanting to have that power and be Godlike. That's really what it comes down to. And so like I said, anything in the new age, It's really subjective.

You know, all of the things. You know, the astrology, the numerology, the angel numbers, all that type of. Oh, yeah. Oh, it's all out there, Michael. It's horrible. I know we're over time. What's an angel number? It's not really an angel number.

It's just a number. People see numbers, right? And apparently our brains actually will pay attention to patterns of numbers. But then you go to Google, I keep seeing 11-11. I keep seeing 4-4-4. There's my 7-7-7, right? And then you're going to get a list of new age explanations for that. And one is going to be that it's an angel number, an angel is communicating with you with a message through that number.

Okay, especially if you're seeing it all the time. Oh, I just turned my phone. It's 11-11 on the stove, right? But the explanations will be subjective because they're being channeled by different mediums, different, you know, One might say you're an ascended master. One might say the angel is trying to tell you, you know, whatever, I don't know, that you're at peace or something. Then people will see numbers on license plates that were mom's birthday or whatever.

And maybe mom just recently passed away. Mom's communicating with me through the license plate. And I understand the pain, Michael. I got as many readings probably as I gave. I mean, I've had tremendous loss in my life. So my heart goes out to people that are grievous, of course, and that they're not wanting that connection to be gone. They're wanting to keep something going.

They want to keep something going, and they want to keep connecting and communicating with the person you lost. We will get that. Anybody who suffered a great loss, right? But that's just not the truth. And once you go down that road, you're going into demonic destruction.

And that's the whole thing. Like, you will get that oppression. Right, right. It's so much more insidious because, you know, I'll mock the people who want to make themselves masters of the universe and say, I'm manifesting whatever I want because I control. I'm God, actually. But a lot of it is just, you know, someone's mom died and she's really sad and just she sees a little, you know, bird fly out the window and thinks, oh, maybe that's, is that really my mother or I don't know. There's, oh, did I hear something? Did I see something? Did I go to a medium? It comes from desperation. Yeah. And because we all crave that. But, you know, I at least believe I'll see, I hope, all of my loved ones someday, at least a good number of them, I hope.

But it's not going to be by talking to you. It's going to be, you know, the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Jen, an absolute pleasure. I've kept you late. You're going to miss your flight, and then we'll probably keep talking for the rest of the evening. Thank you so much for being here, working people find you. Thank you for having me. www.X psychic saved.com.

That's me. Excit psychic saved. Include the X. Don't go. That's right. EX. Yes, that's right. Do not go to the current lives.

And everything's linked there. All of my social media platforms, my podcast. Podcasts, you've got to give it a listen, Michael. We got it all on there. Numerology, astrology. It's great. Getting out there. I guess it's better to know as long as it won't tempt me.

No, because you'll give the full picture. Yeah. Jen, thank you for being here. Thank you, Michael.