The Michael Knowles Show - Michel Knowles & Jewish Rabbi Discuss DEMONS In The Bible | Rabbi Pinchas Taylor

Episode Date: August 27, 2023

Rabbi Pinchas Taylor, Director of The American Faith Coalition joins the show to discuss the Jewish perspective on the devil and demons in the old testament.   Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Let's bring on Rabbi Taylor. Rabbi Taylor, thank you for coming on the show. Thanks so much for having me, Michael. So we started Theology Thursday just a few weeks ago. We're cycling through different religions and religious traditions. And one topic that keeps coming up, though, and maybe it's just because of the age that we live in, is the occult, demons, the UFO stuff in the air, all this kind of stuff. And I always prided myself on knowing, thinking that I knew, the Jewish view on things. things because I grew up in New York. Virtually all of my friends were Jewish. I've been to many a bar mitzvah. I lived in Los Angeles. So I thought, and then I was talking to a Jewish friend of

mine the other day. And she said, Michael, you know how the Jews believe in reincarnation? And I said, wait, what? She said, yeah, yeah, the Jews believe in reincarnation. I heard this from a rabbi. She said, blah, blah, blah. I said, wait, she? How the hell's there? She rabbi. Hold on. Wait, what is this? So I realized, I don't know anything about Judaism. And now I have your book, a Jewish guide to the mysterious. But even better than that, I've got you on here to give me the answers directly.

So, do Jews believe in reincarnation? Why can ladies be rabbis? And then, more importantly, to the topic at hand. What's all the UFO demon stuff? All right. So let's start with reincarnation, I guess. So one of the big misnomer's, I think,

about Judaism is, we're called the people of the book. And it's interesting because really, the Hebrew Bible, the way it was meant to be given over generationally, was orally. Like the Hebrew Bible is basically like the notes or the cliff notes, I guess, that a professor would hand out an outline of the lecture. And then the college professor gives the lecture. And that's, if you didn't attend the lecture and you didn't hear the whole class, you may have

a basic understanding of what went on in the class, but you don't really get the full capacity of it. So the main body of Jewish thoughts actually was carried on orally using the Hebrew Bible, obviously, as the index or as the as the, as the cliff notes, but the discussion. So what I'm trying to, what I'm trying to bring out is this idea that some of the concept in Judaism are not very clearly written in the Hebrew Bible. Even the concept of an afterlife is not really clearly written in the Hebrew Bible, reward. punishment in the Hebrew Bible is essentially, if you do what you're supposed to do, you're going to get the rain when you're supposed to get it. And if you don't do what you're supposed to do, you're not going to get the rain when you're supposed to get it. There's not a whole lot of spirituality and mysticism. It's the Hebrew Bible talks directly, clearly and practically to people

from all ages and all time, something that a farmer 3,000 years ago could clearly relate to, I better do the right thing. And something where, you know, us in our modern day, we can relate to it in a different sort of way, in a different sort of level. and still gain and understand and be motivated to do the right thing. So as far as reincarnation is concerned, this is something that the Jewish mystics in particular has been a core of Jewish mystical theology for quite some time. There are commentaries in the Torah text that discuss various instances where you would see reincarnation. So, for example, after Cain and Abel have their squabble and Kane kills Abel, the, the, what the words that the Hebrew Bible uses in the original Hebrew is that when Seth is born, the who comes, it says that he stood in Abel's place.

And some of the Jewish mystics interpret that to mean that he was actually sort of a reincarnation fulfilling the mission that Abel. So there are places where we see this in Jewish tradition. I think a lot of people like to focus on sort of the mysterious stuff because living practically and living morally is a lot harder. And so like I'd rather talk about angels and demons and aliens and all this other stuff because it's just fun to talk about. And it's kind of just theoretical. And so that's sort of why people I think focus in that. You know, I was reading in the Nicomacian. in ethics last night, you know, good old Uncle Aristotle says that, you know, it's fine to read

about virtue, but virtue is practical. You know, moral virtue is a practical thing. It's about habit. You just have to do it. If you just sit there and kind of muse about it and read about it and banter back and forth, that's not going to get you where you need to go. You just need to actually do the day-in, day-out work of growing in virtue, which is a little less sexy, but, you know, ultimately more conducive to your flourishing. That's our society, though. We like going where it's just going to keep my mind entertained. Right.

Angels, demons, reincarnation, lots of fun. Right. So, but on that point, you do write about it in your book. And my main interest in it is not purely speculative right now. It's because this alien stuff is taking over the Psiop media. Sorry, is taking over the, you know, important hearings at the U.S. Congress. And so I think it's all a bunch of nonsense. And I think that either people are hallucinating or they're seeing weapons, you know, as has happened, you know, secret weapons programs.

Or I do believe in spiritual realities. I believe in angels and demons and spiritual combat. So maybe they're experiencing some of that as the occult grows in our culture as a traditional religious practice disappears. And but also I think it's just kind of like a sigh up and a distraction. So what is the Jewish, do aliens exist? You know, is that, is that a possibility in the Jewish view? There's a possibility. And it wouldn't impact our life in the way that some people think that it would. So some people think, oh my gosh, if there's intelligent life out there, that's the end of religion.

Because the world view that we had until now is completely changed. One of the interesting things that's discussed regarding here, humanity in the Jewish context is, and this is openly in the Hebrew Bible, that everything conceptually is centered around the human being. The human being is seen as the sort of pinnacle of creation and we're created in the image of God. And that's something unique. In fact, interestingly enough in the Hebrew Bible text, especially you really get the full gist of it in the original Hebrew, that the difference between the way in which everything in the universe is created compared to the human being is subtle but vast. Everything else in creation,

the Bible describes it as being spoken into existence. God said, let there be light. God said, let there be plants and animals. When it comes to a human being, human being says form from the dust of the earth and God blows the breath of life. And so the Jewish, the oral tradition and the mystical texts actually say that there's a big difference between speaking something into existence, speaking something into existence and deep breath. What's the difference? When you speak, the air expenditure that comes out is very superficial. You can talk for hours and, you know, many of us know people that can just talk for hours. And then, but deep breath, if you're taking deep breath, it's, you know, you'll pass out after five minutes. And so the idea is, you know,

is that God has a very deeper relationship with the human being than does with everything else in creation. And so being created in the image of God, our commentaries offer various ideas as to what that actually means. But the central idea as to being created in the image of God means that you, that we, you and I, we have free will, that we can make moral decisions. And this is something that is unique to a human being. the same way that God can make it makes decisions to, for example, create the universe and completely undeterred by anything else, a human being, despite any challenges, nature or nurture, can make a free will decision to act just like God.

In other words, to not be influenced by any sort of external factors. So being created in the image of God means, from a Jewish vantage point, means to be a being with free will, to be able to make moral decisions. And that's something that's unique to human beings. Even the angels in our tradition don't have free will. Demons don't have free will. And aliens, if they were out there, they don't have free will. So in the same way that I can conceptually believe in the idea of angels and demons and that sort of thing, if aliens were out there, if they were a physical being from another planet

and they landed in Times Square tomorrow and it was like universally clear that there's life out there, You know what? I would still do that morning? I would still put on my fillin. I would still pray because, okay, I mean, it'd be cool. It'd be interesting to see and to reconsider things and kind of get a new look at the universe. But it's not going to affect my daily, because, again, one thing I know about the aliens, the angels, and the demons is that they don't have free will. The human being is created in the image of God. Now, does, is this complicated by the account of the fall of the... demons? You know, the Christian account is that there's a war in heaven, Satan rebels, and a third of the angels go with him, and there's a big war, and it doesn't turn out very well

for Satan. And then this is depicted in later artistic traditions, you think, which I actually coincidentally just referenced in the show today, you know, you think of John Milton's Satan, who says, well, I'd rather reign in hell than serve in heaven. The mind is its own place. It can make a hell of heaven and heaven a hell. Does the rebellion of the angels imply free will, or does that not factor into the Jewish conception of demons? So it's interesting because one thing I think that may be a distinction in Judaism is that Satan, or as we call it in Hebrew, Satan, means adversary. It's a Hebrew word that means the adversary. We find it in the book of Numbers chapter 22, for example, where that word is used,

as meaning just an adversary. And there is, in our tradition, there is no sort of rebellion in heaven that there was an angel that had free will that said, God, I hate you, and I'm going to go make a big fight. There's no real concept of like a duality that there's the forces of good,

the forces of evil, and they're kind of duking it out, and then the good guys are going to win in the end. But what the idea of the Satan or the Satan is, is more sort of the idea that it's an adversary. It's something to sort of bring you up. In fact, one of the ways the Jewish mystics sort of describe it is imagine you have a king who wants to test the loyalty and the love that his son, the prince, as for him.

And so what he tells him is you need to live a moral life. You need to make sure that you're not involved in all in various forms of immorality. And you need to be on the straight and narrow. And then after he has a conversation with his son, the prince, he goes and hires a harlot to try to seduce the prince. In other words, in other words, the harlot's job is to entice the prince as much as possible. Her job is to really try to get him to fall. But the harlot knows that the whole thing is a game. In other words, the whole reason that she's trying to entice him is just to bring out the love.

if she doesn't try to entice him, then there's no love and loyalty he brought out. But is she not, is the harlot not culpable for her, even being used instrumentally to bring out this love and to be this trial? Is she not culpable? I mean, I think of Judas, right, who Judas betrays Christ and this is providential, right? Christ tells his apostles, one of you is going to betray me. Judas comes up, he says, do you betray the son of man with a kiss? and go do what you're going to do. And he says, you know, the son of man is going to be crucified. But woe to that man who does it. It would be better for that man had he never been born, which is mysterious.

Because you think, well, hold on, this had to happen. This is the key of the story. And yet this person is still morally culpable even for doing it. Is that mystery worked out in the sort of Jewish? conception of Satan or even like the temptress harlot or is it or do you get a pass if you're if you're doing a bad action for a good end so the satan Satan is is an emissary is called the shliah an emissary of god in for the purposes of challenging the human bring bringing bringing out that love bringing out that loyalty and that it's the only way that that free will can be expressed

God wanted to create an environment, a world that seemingly is devoid of godliness and that people should be able to look beyond the veil that the world entices us, see the godly core and make this world into a place that openly reveals godliness. The only way that you can do that is with free will and temptation. And so the satan is an adversary, but the focus. And also, it's important to note, I think, as well, that in Jewish tradition, the sultan, the sotan, the subject. Satan isn't seen so much as the way it is in cartoons with like the good little angel on the right side and the devil on the other side, that the focus of the challenge is on what we call the Azerara, the evil inclination within all of us. If you see something that you desire on the outside, it's not so much the thing that you're desiring that's causing you. It's something on the inside of you that is pulling you in that direction. Right.

So this is something that is, the focus is on the internal struggle between doing right and wrong as opposed to some external force, always kind of prodding us in the wrong direction. Right. We'll have to have you back. And I'm very pleased that even though you didn't give me the precise answer I was hoping for in aliens, you gave me at least most of the answer I was hoping for, which is, who cares? Who cares? I don't care about the stupid aliens, which is pretty good.

And very, very interesting. and you can get the book, a Jewish guide to The Mysterious. And Rabbi Taylor, we will certainly have to have you back on the show. Thank you for coming on. It was a great pleasure. Thanks so much, Michael.