The Michael Knowles Show - The Great Hope To End Roe V. Wade | Kristan Hawkins

Episode Date: February 6, 2022

Michael Knowles discusses The March for Life 2022 Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

It has been 49 years since Roe versus Wade created a fictional right to abortion in America. That case was reaffirmed, slightly changed, but reaffirmed nonetheless in the Planned Parenthood v. Casey decision. Now we are looking at what could be one of, if not the most consequential case in the history of the Supreme Court. Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, which could overrule all of it. It could kill Roe versus Wade. Roe versus Wade would be kept comfortable, would be, there would be a conversation that would ensue between the voters of America, and we very possibly could end abortion in America. So who better to discuss these possibilities with than the head of Students for Life, my friend Kristen Hawkins. Kristen, thank you for being here.

Thanks for having me today. This is a monumental year. It's not 50 yet. The 49th March for Life, It's 49 years since Roe v. Wade. Is Roe going to make it to 50? Absolutely not. There's a great hope that this June, when the Supreme Court hands down their decision in Dobbs, that we will see a reversal, a gutting of Roe versus Wade. And knowing that the Supreme Court can disappoint and has disappointed and conservative appointed judges have disappointed, how confident are you that while we're told this is a 6-3 conservative court, John Roberts is not particularly consistent? conservative, Brett Kavanaugh, there are some questions, Neil Gorsuch redefined sex in the Bostock case, Amy Barrett. So there are these, there are some questions. Is there a possibility that you get a couple squishes and Roe continues? Yeah, I think the question right now is Chief Justice Roberts and trying to broker some sort of compromise there where they would uphold the Mississippi

law that bans painful abortions at 15 weeks, these dismemberment abortions, which would then allow other states to go fourth and ban second and third trimester abortions, but then would they create a new standard? So the Casey standard was viability. If they would come up with a compromise, it would be some sort of new standard, like 15 weeks. But it's really difficult because really, you know, even last year, one of the medical journals, they said that they think pain can actually even start at 12 and a half weeks. So it's always kind of changing, that threshold is changing based on the newest research. And it's just kind of a random standard because, you know, I can put an anesthetic on, or saying, I don't feel pain, so can you lot my hand off? I don't think that makes me sense.

Absolutely. In viability changes depending on what hospital you were born in, what type of equipment they have, you know, what kind of medical care your mother had. So even this viability 24-week standard, there's babies being born who are living today, who are born at 21 weeks. So that could be the compromise. It would still be a win for the pro-life movement. Babies would still be saved. I think that's probably the worst case scenario. You're saying the worst case scenario would be to uphold the pro-life law, but not overrule Roe's way. Yes, but leave Roe and Taff and come up with some sort of arbitrary new standard. The feeling on both sides, I believe, and I think you can read Planned Parenthood's panicked fundraising emails and text messages that I get, is that because they were

willing to even take up the case, it means there's a significant majority willing to reconsider Roe entirely. Well, that's wonderful news. We hope. Hope is a theological virtue. You are launching an initiative called the final fight for freedom. We all fight for freedom. You hear there are a lot of movements. Oh, that's the fight for freedom. We love freedom. Everyone loves freedom. The most interesting word there to me is final. Why is this the final fight for freedom? Well, we think about it as this battle of this first fight for freedom of the fight for Americans to self-govern, right? To determine. our fate. And then the second fight for freedom determining that every American deserves full rights no matter their skin color, right? It was fought during the Civil War, extended into the civil

rights movement. But in 1973, something else happened when seven men said, well, your right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is determined based on where you are, your location, the fact that you are out of the womb. And it fundamentally disordered that hierarchy of rights that we have putting someone else's pursuit of happiness over someone else's right to life. And we know throughout history we have done that, Plessy, dread sky, that the court has had to go back and reverse itself. But we feel like this is this final fight. Because as Abraham Lincoln said, you have to give freedom to the slave in order to ensure freedom for the free. And if these children, these innocent children don't have the freedom to be born, all our freedoms are at stake.

Because it's not as though the right to life is just one right among many. You know, you have the right to life. We have the right to medical care maybe. We have the right to a social security check. No. And by the way, it's not even as though life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are all on one level. That's right. As you, I think, imply quite well, you can't pursue happiness if you don't have liberty. And you, you're not. liberty and you can't have liberty if you don't have a life. By the way, I don't think that these leftists, these pro-abortion people who are screaming and yelling with their crazy-looking hair and their demonic-sounding chants. And the hats, you know, always. And I don't think they're really pursuing happiness. When I look at the Supreme Court, I see the pro-lifers, they're nice, they seem so well-adjusted. They feel like they are, but they are the most miserable people on earth.

The pro-abortion people, yeah. Yes, that's right. So they're not even pursuing happiness. I really... Because they live for self. They don't live for others. It's the principles of universal happiness. It's not to get theological. Right. No, I mean, well, but I'm glad you brought that up because very often I find today a lot of conservatives, pro-lifers. I know there are people on the left who are pro-life as well, so I don't want to exclude them either. But very often, we will accept the scientific materialist premises. of our modern culture. So we'll always try to ground everything in biology. Why can't a hulking dude go into the girls' bathroom? Well, because the science shows that he has a Y chromosome. No, well, there are other reasons too. Well, biologically, the swimmer on the girls' team is a huge dude who has an obvious physical advantage. It's more than just biology. It's more than just the baby in

the womb feeling pain. It's more than just a heartbeat even. It's what are we beyond the merely physical, and that requires philosophical and theological engagement. You can't get around it. That's right. And it's interesting because so often when we're on campuses, we approach it from a scientific human rights standpoint. You know, we're not leading the argument. I was doing an interview the other day, and someone goes, why do you all bring up religion? I'm like, the only time anyone ever actually brings up religion are pro-abortion people who throw religion in my face. You brought it up. But since you have, let's talk about it. Because we kind of already start with the premise that you know that human life has value. But that's actually an interesting point because I started seeing this post-COVID

and some of the conversations, aka debates that I have, you know, folks who come to my speeches on campus where I've actually had pro-abortion students. I'll back them up. We'll be talking about abortion. I'll be asking them questions. And I'll actually back them up and say, well, let's stop talking about the pre-born. Because I've already proved to you that that pre-born child is a human. I've proved that science is not a-deni- Not a giraffe. It's not a platypus. Yes. I can't have a qualibular. as much as I want to qualify, but I cannot make one with my husband. We've tried, it won't happen, right?

So we've already proved it to human, but what we're disagreeing about is does that human being have value? But let's first start with, do you have value? And where does your value come from? And that's actually very scary because we do live in a post-Christian culture. They can't even answer the question. I had two kids, two young boys, actually, last semester who when I asked them, do you have value as a human being, told me no.

Honestly. I mean, these were genuine discussions, and they genuinely didn't believe they had value. So this is a major cultural problem. Because, I mean, I speak as I was an atheist for 10 years, I'm quite familiar with the very shallow atheistic arguments. And they, I think in sincerity, you're looking around and they say, okay, if I can't see it, if I can't touch it, it's not real. And so my hopes, my joys, my loves, my dreams, mathematics, and certainly God himself, the maker of the universe, I can't really see them. I can't comprehend. So it's just not real. And then if you look around and say, okay, if the matter is all that really matters, then no, I don't have any value. But it's funny on this topic of religion that the left is always throwing religion at you because they accuse religious people of magical thinking, of fantastical thinking. Justice Sotomayor, I think, just did that in the Dobbs hearing.

Right. Could you imagine any more magical thinking, any more fantastical thinking, any more fantastical thinking? than believing that a baby is a baby if you want the baby, but a baby is not a baby if you don't want the baby. And if a pregnant woman is murdered, then that is double homicide. But if the woman herself chooses to go and kill the baby, that's not homicide at all. How do they make that argument? Not very convincingly, I guess. Yeah, I mean, it's a dumbfounding argument, right?

It makes you want to take your head and pound it against the ball, because you can point out, I mean, those are the arguments when folks come to my presentations on campus I love because all I do is have to repeat back what they said to me. And I know they themselves have changed the minds of those mushy in the audience. I haven't had to say anything. I just pointed out the illogical position that those who accept abortion have to take. They have to take this illogical argument. And in fact, like, I mean, it goes on because then you can ask, well, what separates a newborn child from a child who's a month old outside of the room? what's the difference there?

Right. I know that some people, especially people who haven't had kids, they think that there is a huge categorical difference between a three-day-old baby and a baby in the womb. Your baby cannot do anything on his or her own until, well, probably until he's about 12. But certainly not... I'm a 12-year-old.

It's going to be later than that, I think. Right. Certainly, a newborn baby is just as helpless, is just as vulnerable, is just as much in need of his or her mother They're actually more time-consuming, more expensive. I love to be pregnant. Being pregnant's easy. I took a baby with me everywhere I want.

Having a newborn, I had to take all the gear. I had to take all the medicine for my children. Like, it was crazy, like all much stuff. It took up like two hours just to go to Applebee's. And, yes, we go to Applebee's because we're boring Midwesterners. But, I mean, so it's unbelievable, the logical positions that in order to be pro-abortion now in our culture, with all the science and technology, All technologies prove that you have to accept.

It's clearly a logical argument. So with all of this kind of crazy magical thinking that's going on, especially on college campuses, you're seeing religion rates plummeting, you're seeing sexual confusion go through the roof, you're seeing men who believe that they're women and vice versa, and everybody has 10 different genders and we are Legion or something. What about pro-life? Are we losing the youths, or is pro-life gaining momentum on campus? We actually gain momentum. So we just, our Students for Life Institute for Pro-Life Advancement just released the poll this week, Gen Z, Gen Y, the, you know, the third of our electorate, the largest voting block. Good thing or bad thing, mostly a bad thing for Republicans, I would say most days.

And the poll numbers aren't as bad as you would think they are. In fact, they're pretty nuanced. And in many ways, we win. Six out of ten originally said they supported Roe. We in one line told them what Roe and Doe did, right? that these two decisions, 1973, allowed abortion in all nine months for every reason. 10% instant shift, 10 points shift, then we were 50-50. Wow.

Instantly, with one line. Just explaining what the cases are. Just explaining. When we talked about chemical abortion, the rise of, now this is going to be the most prevalent form of abortion this year. This is what the Biden administration has been rushing through. The day that they pulled the Johnson and Johnson vaccine because one person died, the FDA came out and said they were pulling all common sense regulations on chemical abortion

pills, even though dozens of women have died. And all the babies have died. And all the babies have died. They pulled those regulations in December. When we polled young people, and by the way, the majority of the poll were not conservatives, 66 out of 10% were wanting these common sense regulations. You thought it was like, duh, a woman should be confirmed that she's actually pregnant before she's given these drugs.

It should be confirmed that she's not experiencing an atomic pregnancy that could kill her. It should be confirmed that she's not RH negative, so she'll never be able to carry another child to turn. I mean, these things make sense even pro-choice or liberal-leaning young people. And so the numbers aren't as bad as many conservatives think when it comes to abortion. In fact, when I'm at conservative events, I'm always telling, you know, the run-of-the-mill conservative, like, you actually need me. I'm like your best marketing arm for the Republican movement because this is a movement that brings a diverse group of students in, young people, We're a very diverse movement students for life because they see this not as a political battle, but as a human rights battle.

They've seen their brothers and sisters via ultrasound. Many folks come into our movements and our campus groups or their town groups, not political at all, don't want to pay attention to politics. But then as they kind of get sucked into the movement, they say, oh, my goodness, if I care about this, I need to care about that. And then I slowly got to witness the transformation from like liberal, atheist, Democrat to sold out, you know, confirmed staffer working on Capitol Hill for one of the top Republicans in the Senate or someone going into the priesthood. I mean, the atheists who then became

evangelical, you know, I mean, like it's crazy the transformations that begin. This is a great observation because for many years, we have been told by conservatives, by the squishy conservatives. People here in D.C. Yeah, we're speaking from D.C. right now, the March for Life is happening, the Students for Life Summit is happening. And there are a lot of swamp creatures around here who are squishes, and they say the way that you're going to bring over liberals and independence and leftists is just don't talk about the culture. Just talk about lowering taxes. And then once people want their taxes lower, then they'll come in on these other issues. But what you're saying, it's the opposite. If you convince someone that human life matters. And we're the ones who care about human

life. I mean, that's the thing, too, is the accusation often waged against pro-lifers is that we don't care about women, right? What are we going to do when Roe is a reverse? When thousands and thousands of women, Or even though thousands of thousands of women certainly did not die per year of baccally abortions before row. Yeah, but what are we going to do without the women? You say, oh, by the way, have you ever met the pro-life movement? We've been operating nearly 2,000 pregnancy centers every single day for decades. We offer all of these resources and support. This is who the pro-life movement is.

We're actually a movement of love and compassion. We really put our money where our mouth is. What better way to show young people who may have a negative brand associated with the word, Republican or conservative, that we care about people. Because we're fighting for them just to be born in the first place. That's right. This is very basic stuff. You convince them on life, on things that matter.

The taxes will follow. You really are in the fight. I am very excited for this next initiative, for all the great work. And gosh, we have so much more to talk about. What are we going to do after Roe versus Wade? How are we going to keep fighting? Not just to send this issue back to the states, but to end abortion nationwide. We're going to have to hold that until after the overrule row.

and we'll have you back. Yeah, and go to StudentsforLife.org slash fight. We have our whole battle plan for post-row, so you can download it for free and get all the details. Terrific. Kristen Hawkins, of Students for Life, a great organization that I'm very excited to speak to on this 49th anniversary of, not just Roe versus Wade, but the 49th anniversary of the pro-life movement,

gaining more and more strength each year, and hopefully getting a whole lot more strength this year as we move into a post-row world. See you next time.