The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 005 Denise Tryon: How She Created Her Meaningful Career and Combines Technique and Artistry in Music-Making

Episode Date: October 5, 2018

Denise Tryon, Associate Professor of Horn at the College Conservatory of Music of the University of Cincinatti and former Fourth Horn with the Philadelphia Orchestra, has built a wonderful career which combines teaching, performing, and expanding the repertoire of her instrument through active commissions.  Denise is a trail blazer in our field!  She has asked herself the hard questions and has not been afraid to step off the beaten path and shape her unique, meaningful, and impactful career.  In this episode, we discuss: Her journey from student, to top-five orchestra member, soloist, and pedagogue The distinction between warmup and daily routine (hint: a warmup is a small part of a daily routine) What a good routine covers – the various fundamentals of your instrument as well as extended techniques How to set up your own routine – something that works really well for you What mindful, efficient, practice is to her: o   Be demanding but kind with yourself o   How to organize it (I'm loving the "55 and out" technique!) o   How to problem solve o   What "swear" words she will not allow in her studio (and they are not what you're thinking!) o   How we need to let go and go with the flow o   The four elements we need to address in the practice room – technical, physical, musical, and mental Audition Mode and audition preparation How musicians need to figure out how to find our own voice and market themselves How we must strive for excellence, not perfection "Change your mind and your body will follow" "Be demanding and caring" when you practice "Give to yourself first"     ALL ABOUT guest: Website: http://denisetryon.com/ Low Horns Unite: http://denise-tryon.thinkific.com/courses/low-horns-unite Audition Mode: http://auditionmode.com/ YouTube channels: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-NXdXmBOZ08O4ijSX6wTzg Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dt_lowhorn/ Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DeniseTryonHorn/   Her album, So Low Doctor Beat Metronome by Boss Mechanical Metronome (not the one she mentions) Horn Berp – Buzz Extension Resistance Piece The Music Lesson: A Spiritual Search for Growth Through Music by Victor L. Wooten   Biography: A native of Roseville, MN, Denise Tryon is currently Associate Professor of Horn at the College Conservatory of Music of the University of Cincinatti. Previously, Tryon was fourth horn of The Philadelphia Orchestra (2009-2017) and served as the Horn Professor of the Peabody Conservatory in Baltimore starting in 2007. She has also held positions with the Detroit Symphony (2003-2009), Baltimore (2000-2003), Columbus (1998-2000), and New World (1995-1998) Symphonies as well as participated in the Colorado Music Festival and the Pacific Music Festival. An accomplished solo performer, Tryon has performed recitals in Sweden, Norway, Poland, Japan, Canada and the United States. "Denise Tryon's command of the lower register provides the strongest foundation of sound for a horn section, and yet, her sound is supple and flexible." —Yannick Nezet-Sequin, music director of the Philadelphia Orchestra In 1989 Tryon graduated from the famed Interlochen Arts Academy and in 1993 received her Bachelor of Music degree from the New England Conservatory of Music (NEC) in Boston. She received the Presidential Scholarship while in the Artist Diploma Program at NEC with the Taiyo Wind Quintet, which won the Coleman Chamber Competition and worked with great composers such as John Harbison, Luciano Berio, György Ligeti, and Elliott Carter. An active and accomplished educator, Tryon is sought after for her masterclasses. She has taught extensively in the United States, Scandinavia, Europe, Asia and South America. Beth Graham of the Warsaw Philharmonic and founder of the Warsaw Horn Workshops raves, "In just a few seconds of listening to a student she can diagnose deep-seated problems and give immediate fixes, often with a healthy dose of humor as well. The transformations she can accomplish in just a short time are truly remarkable." Tryon released her debut solo album, SO•LOW in 2015. As a part of this album, she commissioned 4 new pieces for low horn and piano. Said in a review by Gramophone Magazine "Tryon plays these works with sonorous fluidity and dexterity, ending with a bit of captivating acrobatics." In 2009, Tryon founded Audition Mode, a yearly horn seminar, with Karl Pituch. In 2010 she was an International Horn Society (IHS) Northeast Workshop Featured Artist. She was a contributing artist at the IHS Symposium in San Francisco in 2011, as well as one of the Solo Artists at the Nordic Hornfest in Norway in 2012. Tryon was on the horn faculty at BIBA (Blekinge International Brass Academy) in Sweden in 2013. She has been the Featured Artist at the Warsaw Horn Workshops in 2013, 2015, and 2016. In 2014 and 2016, Tryon was a Featured Artist at the IHS MidNorth Horn Workshop, and in 2015, she was a Featured Artist at the IHS Symposium in LA. In 2016, Tryon was on faculty during the brass weeks at Domaine Forget. Tryon was the Featured Artist at the IHS NorthWest Horn Workshop in 2017.   If you enjoyed the show, please leave a review on iTunes!  I truly appreciate your support! Visit www.mindoverfinger.com for information about past and future podcasts, and for more resources on mindful practice. THANK YOU: Most sincere thank you to composer Jim Stephenson who graciously provided the show's musical theme!  Concerto #1 for Trumpet and Chamber Orchestra – Movement 2: Allegro con Brio, performed by Jeffrey Work, trumpet, and the Lake Forest Symphony, conducted by Jim Stephenson. Also a huge thank you to my producer, Bella Kelly!   MIND OVER FINGER: www.mindoverfinger.com https://www.facebook.com/mindoverfinger/   (As an Amazon Associate I earn from qualifying purchases, which helps cover some of the costs associated with the production of the podcast.  Thank you for your support.)

You're listening to the Mind Over Finger Podcast, episode number five. Welcome to the Mind Over Finger Podcast, discussions on mindful music making, efficient practice, and building a purposeful career. And now your host, Dr. Rene Paul Gaultier. Hi, everyone. Today, I speak with Denise Tryon, horn player and associate professor of horn at the College Conservatory of Music of the University of Cincinnati. Former fourth horn with the Philadelphia Orchestra, Denise has built a wonderful career which combines teaching, performing, and expanding the repertoire of her instrument through active commissions. Throughout her career, she has asked herself the hard questions and has not been afraid to step off the beaten path and shape her unique, meaningful, and impactful career. Prior to her position at CCM, Denise served as the horn professor of the Peabody Conservatory in Baltimore starting in 2007, and she held positions with the Detroit, Baltimore, Columbus, and New World Symphonies.

A graduate of the Interlochen Arts Academy and New England Conservatory, Denise is an accomplished solo performer and a skillful pedagogue. She has sought after throughout the world for her masterclasses, and she has taught extensively in the United States, Scandinavia, Europe, Asia, and South America. Denise co-founded Audition Mode, a yearly horn seminar with Carl Patuk, principal horn of the Detroit Symphony, and together they redefine what audition preparation entails for young students and professionals. Through her website, Denise offers an impressive amount of extremely valuable content on practice and performance. She also has a great YouTube channel and Facebook page filled with awesome practice videos. Her content is incredible, and I highly recommend that you visit all her platforms and check it out. Of course, I have links in the show notes for you. Denise released her debut solo album, So Low, in 2015.

As a part of this album, she commissioned four new pieces for Low Horn and Piano, and she continues to commission new works for the Low Horn for upcoming projects. In this episode, we discuss her journey from student to top five orchestra member, soloist, pedagogue, and catalyst in expanding the repertoire of her instrument. We also discuss practicing fundamentals and audition preparation. It is an information and inspiration-packed episode, and I hope you enjoy and find value in our discussion. Let's go to the show.

Denise Tryon I'm so happy to have you on the show today I'm really excited to be here yeah I came across your work for the first time over a year ago now and you've been a great source of inspiration for me since then you have these awesome excerpt of the week videos on YouTube and you have short videos of performances and of you answering questions on technique on social media and And I have to say, even though the videos are about horn playing and technique, I, as a violinist, always find elements I can relate to and apply in my own practice. You know, actually, I would say that because they're not violin videos, they really draw my attention to things that are, you know, above the specifics of violin playing. They make me think about things from a different angle and they make me listen to myself in a way that I would say transcends the technicalities of violin playing. So I strongly recommend to everyone listening to check out your amazing content online, and I'll put links in the show notes for sure.

Great. Thank you. You know, I'm not just inspired by your skills as a performer and pedagogue. I find your whole story very compelling and inspiring. So before we discuss practice and music making, I'd love to hear about your musical journey and your career in your own words. So if you don't mind, would you please tell us about you and how you got to where you are and how your artistic path has unfolded? Absolutely. Okay, so I started playing piano when I was about five or six, something like that. My mom really wanted me to play piano. And I enjoyed it for a little bit of time. But really, the piano was just not for me. And I played through probably the age of 16 or so. in the last few years that I played, I really only ever wanted to play Bach, which was great and yet drove my piano teacher nuts. And so, and then I picked up the horn around the age of 12, but that came about because it was time to pick an instrument at my school. And so I went in with my

mom and I said, well, I really want to play the drum set. And my mom said, absolutely not. I said, okay, then I want to play the flute. And she said, no, there are just too many flutes in the world. And she pointed at the horn. She's like, you're going to play that. And if my memory serves correctly, I started to cry. So it was, you know, the case was funny shaped. And so anyways, but so I started playing in 12 and quickly realized that I really liked it. I went to Interlochen Arts Academy for my senior year of high school. And then I went to New England Conservatory for my bachelor's degree. While I was there, I became a member of a wind quintet. And we applied once I was done with my bachelor degree, we applied for the artist diploma program at NEC. And we

were accepted. We were only the second group to ever be accepted. The first one was the Borromeo String Quartet. And it's a two-year program, but sort of towards the middle end of that first year, I was admitted into the New World Symphony, which is down in Miami Beach, and a training orchestra, for those of you who don't know that. And so I had to make a decision, do I want to play orchestral, or do I want to move forward with the chamber music? And I love chamber music. And I felt like at the time, it didn't seem like a viable option for a sustainable career. So, you know, but what I sort of jokingly tell people is I wanted to play above a mezzo forte at some point in my career. So I got out of the woodwind only world and went

down to new world. So while I was there, I was there three years, and I did a lot of high horn playing. And for those of you who aren't horn players, there's a real split in the horn community. There are high horn players and low horn players. And of course, you have to be able to do it all in order to win an audition, but you really are kind of specialized once you're sitting in the orchestra. And so now in my career, I'm a low horn player, but all through college and through New World, I was a high horn player. And I took a lot of high horn auditions and did quite well. But I decided to, in the middle of my third year, to go study with this woman named Freude Srevekra. And I'll get into my teachers a little bit later. But while there,

we sort of discovered that I needed to go through an embouchure change. And by the time I did that one, that meant I had done four embouchure changes in my life, which is, it's like taking the violin and putting it into the other hand and saying, okay, figure out how to play. So I went through four of those between Interlochen and then my time in New World, so roughly about 10 years. And from high school up until this time, I was very lucky to have some really incredibly strong female role models in the horn world. I studied with a woman named Marjorie Black, who at the time was a freelancer in Minnesota,

which is where I'm from. and so she was my first main horn teacher and then I went and studied when I was at NEC I studied with Chuck Kowalowski who at the time was principal horn in the Boston Symphony but he was also a nuclear physicist so yeah that was interesting then he took a leave of absence my last year and I studied with the tuba teacher at NEC who was the tuba player in the Boston Symphony Chester Schmitz. And then while I was sort of in New World, I took some time off and went and studied with Freud. So I've had strong female and I've had sort of non-traditional teachers, you know, studying with a tuba player. And it was it really I feel like it really helped mold who I am as a

player and who I am as a pedagogue. So as I was coming to the end of my time at New World, I started sort of taking every audition that came up. And I won fourth horn in Columbus. And I was there for two years. Then I was second horn in the Baltimore Symphony. I was there for three years. Then I was fourth horn in Detroit Symphony. I was there for six years. And then fourth horn in Philadelphia. And I was there for eight years. And while I was in Detroit, I actually started teaching at Peabody Conservatory, which is in Baltimore. A lot of people ask if I started teaching there when I was in the Baltimore Symphony, which would have made more sense, but I never do anything the easy way. So every week I flew from Detroit to Baltimore to teach,

and I did that for about three years. And then I got into Philadelphia, and then that made that commute a lot easier. And as time was going on and I was teaching very heavily and I was playing in one of the top orchestras in the world, which has an extremely heavy schedule, I realized that something needed to change. I didn't have a lot of personal time and I was just tired all the time and honestly a little bit cranky. So I made the decision to take a year off from the orchestra to see how it would feel for me to teach full-time and not play full-time in an orchestra. And I knew fairly early on that this was the right road for me. So even though it was an incredibly hard decision to resign my position from Philly, and it was really hard to

press the send button to resign with the email, it was the right decision for me in the long term. And then I was at Peabody full-time for a year, and not even quite a year, and this position at CCM, at the University of Cincinnati, came open, and it was one of my dream jobs. So I applied and was beyond excited to win this position. So I started here at CCM just about, I don't know, three or four weeks ago. Um, so then when I was in Detroit, I started a yearly week long horn seminar, all about orchestral auditions called audition mode. And I started that with the principal horn in Detroit, whose name is Carl Pittock. And, uh, people should go listen to his recordings of, uh, the John Williams concerto and the

Kerry Turner concerto. That's spectacular. Um, and during all of that was one of the things that we always do is give a recital. And so I wanted to be playing pieces that were in the lower register to kind of showcase the range that I'm so passionate about. And there's hardly any repertoire out there. So then I really started to get a passion for commissioning new works for the low register and whether it's unaccompanied with piano. And so I commissioned a few pieces, enough to sort of be able to make my first album, which is called Solo, right?

That's a good one. And then I've recently, in the past few months, started commissioning some more works for a second album. So that's my story. That's an amazing journey. You know, I love how you're not afraid to go beyond the beaten path and truly find the answers for yourself. I think it's really great that you found this niche that you love. Then I guess what we would call your zone of genius, you know, and that you listen to your instinct and follow your passion.

And I feel that what you do is so important because it really goes to show that, especially in 2018, we don't have to get settled blindly in the mold. And when you follow the breadcrumbs and you pursue these things that interest you and keep you inspired and motivated, you can really have an impact and make a contribution to the music world and build a career that is fulfilling and purposeful. In your case, I think you are really instrumental and, you know, pun not intended, in the growth of the repertoire for the low horn by commissioning these new pieces and expand people's view of the instrument. I think that's, that's fantastic. Is there any other noteworthy project you're currently working on? You just mentioned a second CD. Yes, I'm working on a second CD. I put out a CD, a duo CD with my Audition Mode partner, Carl. We put that out, I guess it came out maybe in December of 2017. And so I was hoping to record this album in August, as in a month ago. But with moving to Cincinnati and, and trying to figure out how to start in this, uh, with this studio. I just put

it on the back burner for now. Uh, and so then I was hoping to do it this fall. We'll see. I'm still waiting on two pieces to be finished, uh, finished being written. So then of course I'll have to learn them and play them in a couple of recitals before I want to record them. So we'll see how quickly, how quickly it happens. Um, and then, uh, one of the things that I also started was a bunch of online resources for people. Uh, one of which is my personal routine, my warmup, that's an air quotes in case you couldn't see that warmup routine. And, um, and then I started something that I call low horns unite, but it's, it's basically just a place for people to be able to ask me questions. Uh, you know, I'll put up some articles either that I've written

or that I like, I'll put some videos up. Uh, people can send in, uh, audio and video for me to give feedback. So it's a, it's a way just for people to be able to connect with me and be able to ask me questions sort of anytime they want, which is, I would have liked that when I was, when I was in school. For sure. Where can we find this Low Horns Unite? Is this something on social media or through your website? It's through my website. It's actually through both the routine and this LHU, the Low Horns Unite is on a platform called Thinkific. And, you know, if you search that, you'll see either Low Horns Unite. I can't remember if it's there under Low horns unite or LHU, but probably low horns unite. And then also the routine is there. And those are

two different, two different types of purchases. The routine is all inclusive and it's the PDF of it, plus a video of me explaining why, why each exercise is in there, plus how I do it and then me playing it. And then there is audio only of me playing in case you'd like to play along with it as well. And then LHU is a monthly subscription for just under 10 bucks a month. Wow. That's really incredible. Actually, if there's anyone listening out there, that's a really great price for so much value and so much content. I'm going to put links for all of these things on the show notes and I'll definitely be on the lookout for this CD whenever it comes out. And this is a perfect segue because you just mentioned the DT routine and this is

exactly what I wanted to talk to you about to begin because I see you as someone who's navigating this line between technician and artist so gracefully you really take the time to understand fully what you're doing and what's happening and I think you know I I'm not sure I can't read your mind but I feel like it allows you to really let the artistic message come freely and performance. And I can't wait to dig into the art of practicing with you. But a good place to start is definitely the importance and the art of the warm-up routine. I always insist about this with my student, and I myself have what I would call a regular modular routine where I cover specific aspects of violin playing. And of course, I have my favorite exercises, but I'll also vary

them for a little bit of fun and variety. But you have this great routine out there. Can you please tell us a little bit more about it and expand a bit on what you think makes a good warm up routine and how one can go about building one that is efficient, maybe on a different instrument? Yeah. So for me, a warm up and a daily routine are two different things. I feel like we can we can get warmed up so that we're not going to injure ourselves in two to five minutes you know it's we're not going to feel great but we're not going to injure ourselves we're going to get the blood flowing and the muscles going so for me I always start my routine I have I wrote down like the warm-up that I do within that which takes me probably about two and a half minutes but

because people were always asking me what do I do specifically for that so I wrote it down But, you know, I feel like as long as you can warm up the entire range of the instrument, that's the point. And then for me, a good routine covers as much of the fundamentals as possible. So you want to be sure that you, you know, play high and low, that you play loud and soft, that you do articulation, you do some slurring or legato, um that you have some flexibility in there that you do some extended techniques uh and some people really like long tones think i'm not a huge fan of long tones but i always mention them because i know that some people really love them some teachers really love them so for me if it can incorporate all of that then i think you're on the right road because i've often heard people do

their warmup or their routine. And at least on horn, they're just doing slurred. They're not doing any articulated and they're only doing sort of working through the harmonic series. So all the notes you can play on one fingering. And it just, I feel like there's so much more to the instrument and we need to be exploring all of that. And if you can do that, then I feel like everything else that sort of comes after that, everything that you're working on, you have all of the technique that you need. You just have to figure out how to piece it together from what you've done within the routine. So I've helped people set up their own routines. And I'll say that for me, I'm somebody that I could, I could eat the same thing every day. I could play the same thing every day and

be happy. So, uh, for me, a routine works really well. I mean, I've made small modifications over the years and added some things that I really felt were lacking, but I've been doing this same routine for, uh, 28 years, something like that long time. Uh, and I feel like it is the biggest key to my success on the horn. I feel like just really, it keeps me in great physical shape. So what I do is I, you know, when people want to make their own routine is you want to just find a series of exercises that you like. Now, sometimes the phrase you like means something that you maybe can't do. Maybe that you feel like touches on a part of your technique that's weak. and we try to put them, I try to put them in categories for people like, okay, is this high

or low? Is this articulated or slurred? Is this loud, soft? And piece together something that will work for them. And maybe there is, maybe there are a few exercises that you can rotate through so you don't get complacent or be bored or something along those lines. And I know that some people's routines are, you know, maybe an hour long. I find that if I have to do an hour of routine playing before I'm allowed to sort of do anything else, that feels, I just, I feel overwhelmed by that. So I like to keep a routine to about 30 minutes, maybe, you know, a little bit less, maybe up to 40. But, you know, I prefer sort of the 30 minute mark, because that's a nice, you sort of really get into it and then you can still do some more after that

before your first practice session is done. So that's how I, that's how I approached it. And I have exercises from different teachers. I have exercises from different books in my routine, things that I find work, but I put in a bunch of alternate versions of how you can do each of these exercises because I know that sometimes people can get a bit bored. Uh, so that's the, that's the story of my routine. And that's such great advice because as you mentioned, it's keeping these fundamental elements strong. That's at the base of everything that we do. And again, as you said, it's so easy to get injured if we don't appropriately approach the instrument and wake up the muscles and warm up you know the whole the whole body before the work and covering the

fundamentals I know for violins that would be making sure there's some I mean I'm a big fan of long tones because it really warms up my bow arm you know but some bow arm exercises and left hand and scales arpeggios and double stops and when you mention extended technique what would that be on the horn so that would be uh lip trills which um lip trills is when i instead of it's usually whole steps whole steps are done with uh you use the same fingering for both notes and then you just move your move your embouchure to wiggle back and forth uh versus a finger trill And lip trills, it can be quite slow for people to get that technique under their belts. And I will say that for me, my lip trill wasn't truly reliable until I was in my early 30s.

But I just kept working on it every day. And eventually it came around. That would be one thing. Multiple articulation. So anything that's really fast and you have to, instead of just doing a series of T's in a row, you have to do a TK or if it's a triple tongue, TTK, TTK. Uh, some people like stop torn. So that's when you close the, the bell off with your hand and it actually transposes the pitch. So you have to play different fingerings to get the pitch that

you want, but figuring out how to make that sound really nasal. That is something that's quite challenging to get, to figure out because everyone has such different hands, different sizes of hands and how to close that off so that as little air as possible is escaping and you're in tune as can be challenging. Um, so those are just some examples. You could also do multifonics, which then you play a note and you're singing a note at the same time to try and get double stops, basically. And, uh, I think sort of the last one that I can sort of think of would be flutter tongue where you're just, uh, like rolling an R for a long period of time while playing a series of notes and it gets asked for a lot in uh in Mahler and um some later later works

so those are some examples so not necessarily exercises covering things that you might use every day but that you strengthen over time so when they do occur you have this you know the knowledge and the skill to do it correct yeah if you if you wait until something comes up I mean And if you think about my career, if I waited to work on lip trills until I needed it, I could probably go a couple of years without practicing a lip trill because in orchestral playing, it just, it just, I don't know if there is a piece that requires a lip trill for fourth horn. Once in a while, principal horn will have to do something, but for the rest of us, not, not so much. And since I know that's such a challenging technique for me personally, I practice it every day to make sure that I stay on top of it because I don't want to be penned in by, oh, well, I only do these things. Therefore, those are the only things I'm going to practice. If you only practice what is required of you, you're playing and your world becomes very small.

And then when something does get put on your plate that is more challenging, then, you know, suddenly it's like, whoa, that's a big stretch for me. And I don't want to feel like that. It's such a great reminder for all of us. You know, there's a great violin pedagogue called Simon Fisher. And in one of his videos, he talks about how building the skill to do something is a little bit like taking medicine every day. So you just build on it. And I love this analogy. And, you know, it's such a great reminder, because there's so many of these little, what you call extended technique that are required for all instruments, and we don't practice them every day. But by just, I mean, even just one minute a day on a specific stroke, at the end of the year, it adds up to a lot of time spent on it. I love it. Thank you so much for this.

So as we talked about, you've been teaching Peabody Conservatory and now the Cincinnati Conservatory, which looks like a big studio from the pictures. Yeah. How many? Yeah, 25. I have 25 students. Wow. Which means that I have an adjunct that works with me. and the way I'm doing it is that basically every student gets three lessons a month with me and

one lesson a month with my adjunct who this year is his name is Jonas Tomes and you know and sometimes it's you know he comes in two weeks after he came in the first time but over the semester it works out to be once a month with him and three times a month with me and that way I feel like I am the, the driving force in how people are moving forward and through their, their education. And the, and Jonas, the adjunct is, is coming in and being like a coach and, uh, you know, hearing, giving his thoughts on what he hears, but also trying to, um, cement some of the things that I'm talking about. So we, we keep extensive notes about what we're working on and why we're working on it and what we see on each student so that

we're up to date on what each of us is thinking. Wow. So I want it to be as collaborative of a process as possible. And I love how you worded that, how you helped them move forward and through because our teachings or the teachings that we received stay with us our whole life. So I'm guessing it's the same thing with our students as well. And there's so many times where I found myself, you know, five years after graduation, finally thinking I'm starting to understand one concept that my teacher was talking to me about. And when you talk to these students about practicing, about mindful and efficient practice, what do you tell them about it? Like how, what, when, what kind of tools, what do you think mindful, efficient practice is?

well i think the the older i get and the more i see students and remember who i was at that age i think it's really important to remember who you were and what your feelings were as you were 18 20 25 in that in that range um i think it's it really important to be demanding of yourself but be kind to yourself as well. Too often, I find that students talk to themselves in a way that they would never talk to another person using those same words. And I think it's important to remember that first and foremost, we are our own teachers. So for your whole life, you have you as a teacher, you might as well accept it and figure out how to be the best teacher for you that you can be. But the more, when you're in the practice room, I actually really will lay out for students

who have a hard time sort of, some people have a hard time sort of figuring out how to lay out their practicing. I talk about what I call the 55 and out program. And that is, I mean, as horn players, we don't have, we can't practice six, you know, six hours a day. We really have a limited, the muscles are so small and you know it's very limited what we can do so um i say you try you want to try and do roughly about three sessions a day if this is what you want to do with your life if you want to be a musician for your life three sessions a day each one is 55 minutes so you do roughly 25 minutes you take a five minute break you play another 25 minutes boom you're done adds up to 55 minutes you're done for that that session you wait a few hours you do it all over

again, wait a few hours, do it all over again. And I like to approach my practicing and I like to instill in my students that they approach in their practicing that it's more of a mathematical or a scientific equation rather than attaching the ego to it. It's like, you know, if you can't do something, then you're not worth X, Y, and Z. So instead of thinking that, try to figure out the three questions I always ask people to ask themselves is, what happened? You know, was that something out of tune? Did you miss a note? Was your articulation not clean? You know, figure out what it is that happened. Why did you stop? Then ask, why did it happen? You know, and that sometimes can be a little bit, a little bit challenging of a question to ask yourself to

figure out what that is. And then how do I fix it? And I feel like that part, that's where all the experimentation comes in where all the creativity can come into our practicing you know you try okay this time i'm going to try using different air okay you know you try it how did that work what did i discover okay this time i'm going to try and use a different type of articulation did that get the result that i wanted and so on and so forth so that they can just sort of check off well i tried all of these things and this is this combination is what worked for me and keeping a practice journal helps when that comes about, but really trying to take the ego out of it. And it's, I find it's the most challenging sort of at this high school and college age,

because there's a lot, especially once you decide you want to go into it, there's a lot of pressure resting on this decision. And, you know, am I going to make it? You just don't know how your life is going to turn out. And so there's a lot of, a lot of anxiety around that. So trying to keep that anxiety out of the practice room is one of the best things that you can, you can do for yourself. Because it's so counterproductive. And there are usually four elements that I look at when somebody is playing for me. And so I asked them to look at that for themselves, which is, there's the technique sort of branch there's your physical branch like you know are you holding tension somewhere there's your musical branch you know are you creating nice phrases do you

have an idea of what kind of phrase you want to play and then there's the mental and depending on what a student when a student's playing for me I can sort of feel what's coming out of them the strongest, you know, so sometimes I'll work with somebody on getting a, you know, a particular type of air, a particular type of articulation or a particular kind of slur, intonation, something like that. Then there's, you know, a look and are they holding tension somewhere? And is that causing them to not be able to put forth the technique that I know they have? You know, some people are just have a harder time figuring out how to build a phrase and that you can teach that but it but it requires the student to do you know a lot of work but for me the mental is the

is the biggest component so I actually have a set of words that I don't like to be said in my in my studio and I call them I call them swear words but and I keep threatening to get a swear jar and then we'll take the money and have a big porn party at the end of the year but Uh, so I don't like the word hate. And that means, oh, I hate this piece. I hate the horn or insert instrument here. I hate the way I played that. Uh, it's something along those lines, not, oh, I hate rain, whatever. Uh, it's beautiful and sunny out. I don't know why I said rain, but then, so that's the first word. And then the second one is the word perfect. I don't want to play it until it's perfect, or I didn't like it because it wasn't perfect. I truly don't know

what perfect is. I've been to a concert where the person next to me just thought it was perfect and I didn't like it at all. So I feel like perfect is such a subjective thing. And most people when they're talking about perfection, they're talking about playing all of the right notes. And when you think about your, the performances, the live performances that have really moved you, there are, there are probably some notes that go by the wayside or maybe a little bit of intonation that goes off. But if that person is just so committed to their musical content, you forget all of those things. So for me, what is perfect, you know, anyways, I got off on a tangent on that one. The next one is sort of a twofer, but should, shouldn't. And it's really, I find it's really

common in, um, kids of the same age. So if you have, you know, uh, three, three students that are all juniors and one of them has an incredible high range and the other two don't, and they're like, well, so-and-so has a great high range. I should have that. Uh, or this person has a great lip trill. I should have that. And I just feel like everyone's on their own road and And when you learn things and how you learn things is completely different and allow yourself that time and don't really compare yourself to other people. So that's why should shouldn't is not allowed in here. And the last one is a challenging one for me, which is the word control. And I, of course, want to feel like I'm in control of my mind and of my body, but I don't want to try to control things, which that's where I feel like people get into trouble when they just, they try to control aspects of their playing or of their life. And it just doesn't work. It actually makes it much worse. So find the flow and, and just commit to it and, and you'll be happier and you'll be a better player long run. And what's interesting with this control too, is that it goes back to this need to play perfectly. And even in, in audition playing, people think they have, I feel like, I feel like it's a misconception. They feel like they have to play perfectly, but it's so much more than that. I feel like a committee needs to see that, yes, you are a great technician, that you are able to

handle the technicalities of the instrument, but they want to see a musician, someone who's making music and has ideas and understands the concept and the context of everything, how your voice fits within the orchestra. It's so much more than making sure you're playing perfectly and trying in the play perfectly, I feel causes the opposite where we do end up feeling like we're in a box and there's not that flow that you're talking about, which makes everything more difficult. Yeah. When you're not in the flow, I mean, I usually equate it to if you're kayaking down a river and you suddenly decide you want to go against the current, you have to use so much more energy and you hardly go anywhere where if you would just go with the currents and of course

you don't want the boat to tip over you know you want to stay in control of the boat but you want to be going along just with this river and i feel like if if we could if we could find that in our own playing it's it just it makes a lot of the things that we stress about actually just fall into place there's so many great things and what you just said to even going back to the 55 and out i really like this actually i will most likely steal that from you but i i'll give you credit i promise but i love that it kind of gives the student this permission to or even professionals you know sometimes you don't want to start practicing because you feel like it's such a big chunk of time ahead but if you break it down it's much

more manageable therefore a little bit easier to motivate ourselves to get in the studio and practice but i feel like it also helps with this concept of spaced repetition where you walk away you let things settle a little bit be absorbed by the brain and then go back and re-stimulate everything i i just i love that and you know not letting the ego gets in get in the way as you know what we were just talking about yeah and these four elements that you were referring to the technique physical musical and the mental we have to address all four of these things in the practice room yeah and we so often get narrow uh minded and focus on one more than the others and they are very um i don't know if that's a word in english complemental to each other they complement

each other sure but oh yeah so much great stuff well and i find that people really don't want to address the mental i'm not i'm not sure why i mean i i will say that it was the because by the time i went to go study with uh freudus over in norway i was very negative i mean i can't even say a word that should that explains how negative i was and working on that mental side was by far the hardest work i've ever done on the instrument but it has not only helped my playing it's helped my personal life immensely. So I feel like working on those things, even though it's very uncomfortable for a lot of my students to talk about, I'm going to bring it up and I'm going to talk about it and challenge people to see how they're actually undermining their playing by what it is that

they're saying to themselves or what they believe. Yes. So powerful. We even, I think, get lost in playing of the instrument and we forget the purpose like why are we doing this yeah you mentioned earlier the um really great audition workshop that you do with your colleague from Detroit Symphony Carl Patuk I hope I'm saying this name right can you talk to us a little bit about that and you know how it came about and what you think some key elements are in preparing for an audition yeah so between Carl and I I think we've taken roughly somewhere in the 70 to 75 audition range. That's painful to say, but it's true. So we felt like, and he's won, I don't know what, five, five auditions and been runner up to many others. And I won four auditions and was

runner up many other times. So we felt like we had a lot of knowledge and that there was a real lack of this type of a camp or seminar. So kids weren't really learning about this. They were learning how to play excerpts but there is a lot more to playing a good audition than just playing the excerpts so we started talking and it took us a little over a year to sort of really develop what we wanted to do and we started in 2009 so this summer will be our 10th year doing it which is uh amazing to me that the time has gone that fast and it has we've monkeyed with the the length and all of this a few times trying to get it trying to get it right because it is a very intensive week we do two two lists two mock audition lists one for high horn and one for low

horn and everyone has to do both lists so you can't just come in and pick the one that you're more comfortable with which is what people's tendency is so you have to do both and we do masterclasses on every single one of the excerpts. We also do a couple of masterclasses on concertos and we'll ask for specific concertos. We'll include a section, several masterclasses on section playing because often in final rounds for winds and brass, you are playing in a section to see how you fit in with that particular orchestra. So there is a real knack to figuring out how to go from the soloist stage, which is when you're playing excerpts, you have to think of yourself as a soloist regardless of what position you're applying for, and then how to become either a

good leader if you're applying for a principal spot or how to be a good section mate. And we do a couple of lectures on preparation, on resumes. And we, of course, always tell some horror stories from our audition days. And then at the end of the week, we do two mock auditions. It's screened. We do a couple of rounds. And we, at least so far, we've always picked a winner in each of the auditions so that in a nutshell is what that what that week looks like it's usually about six days long and uh we uh carl and i always start the week off by playing a recital because we want to try and inspire some people about uh about playing so we always start the week off with uh with a recital and then it's just like it just goes on all day long it's so

much information. So it's, it can get a little bit tiring for people, but a good tiring, like, you know, then you have a lot of information and you get inspired for the whole year to go and practice. So we talk, you know, we talk a lot about, and we also talk about negotiating your contract, which at least in the United States, you know, there's a lot of things that can be negotiated in to a contract so it's always important to do that because in my first job nobody had told me that i could negotiate and so i just signed whatever contract they sent me i'm sure they were very happy that i had done that um yeah so it's uh and carl and i are like a weird comedy team together i can't tell which one of us is the straight man and which one's the

funny the funny one but it goes back and forth and uh yeah it can get a little it can get a little punchy in there but uh but yeah so you know for the most part we have we have a lot of fun doing that and uh it's been really we've had people come back for a couple of years um you know wanting to wanting to learn more wanting to get inspired and it's just a lot of the stuff that we talk about just isn't being talked about in school or of course once you're out of school amazing it sounds like such a comprehensive program you know and I even love the name audition mode because you know preparing for an audition does require a specific mindset and you know you you do go into audition mode that's a great and it sounds like you're really helping

the student push out of their comfort zone and the fact that you're encouraging this versatility is so important I'm trying to think if we have a similar thing on on the violin but I guess it would be more of um you know we it's like you said we have to be prepared to cover any style any um different type of articulation any character so that sounds like a great program yeah it's a lot of i mean it's it's a lot of work but it's a lot of fun and i always feel at the end of the week usually right before the week starts i'm always like oh my gosh this is so much work what am i doing and then the week the week ends and i was like that was great let's do it again So I'm always, I'm glad that I end on an up note and feel like, okay, let's do it again. Because if I felt, if I felt as drained at the end as I did at the beginning, then it probably wouldn't happen again.

Thank you so much for this, Denise. How about a quick round of rapid fire questions before we wrap this up? So for the people who are dreaming of becoming, you know, a horn player, whether it's a solo horn player or orchestra player, can you tell us a little bit about what your life looks like? Yeah. So, you know, I found that the most interesting part about becoming a professional was it actually was really hard to figure out how to manage my chops around my schedule. You know, I didn't I wasn't as free to just practice as much as I wanted whenever I wanted because I had to be on at certain points. So, um, I'm always sure that before I start teaching or before I travel or something like that, I, I always make sure to get my routine in and be sure that I, that I give a little something to myself and, you know, depending on what it is I'm working on, I, you know, I, I might be, I might not have any sort of performance on my schedule for maybe a month and I'll be practicing a lot of etudes. And then I'm always trying to play some things that my

students are working on so that I can demonstrate well. But yeah, it's, you know, and it does mean that after I get home from a long day of teaching, when what I'd really like to do is have a glass of wine and sit and talk with my husband, it means that I have to go back into the practice room to do a little bit more work for myself so that I can maintain the level of playing that I want to maintain. But then I get to go and I get to meet great people in this country and all around the world playing chamber music and concertos. And I just, it's a really, it's been a really great life, you know, getting to meet new people, getting inspired by people. And I wouldn't trade it for anything. Is there a performance that has stayed with you throughout the years?

You know, I think there are a couple that come up for me. The first one is I played, when I went to Interlochen camp in the summer, right before my senior year, I played Tchaikovsky 6. And it's so gut-wrenching that I remember, you know, and that's a time in your life when a lot of changes are happening. And, and I was just so inspired by that performance and so moved that that's actually the performance that made me decide to try to become a musician. It was just so, it was so powerful because I thought I was going to be an electrical engineer at that point in my life. So that turned out a little differently. But then I will say that playing Beethoven 9 with Raphael Fubek de Bergos was just still, it was the first time I played the fourth horn solo in Beethoven 9. And I got to play it with one of the most incredible musicians that I've ever worked with. And it was just very special. I will never forget that performance. I have a similar experience with the Tchaikovsky Symphony, a different one, but we have that in common. Nice. Do you have a favorite tool in the practice room? Yeah, I have two. Anybody who's heard me talk knows that I am in love with the metronome.

I have three different types of metronomes depending on what I want to work on. I have one on my phone because it's easy. It's always with me and it's there. I have a Dr. Beat for you know, more complicated things. And then I have an, uh, an older old fashioned one that stands up and the arm ticks back and forth, but I bought it in Japan. So it's this like eggshell blue colored, and it's got this cute little ding. So it just makes me happy to like, see this little arm waving in front of me and hear this cute ding. So that makes me happy when to, uh, you know, to work with that metronome. But for me, if, if you can't play in time with you, how am i supposed to play in time with you so great rhythm is just is the bedrock of everything

that we do i know that was three but that's one category and the other one is something specific to brass players and it's called a burp uh and it stands i feel like i would have liked to have looked this up but it stands for something buzz extension something something and it's a it comes in two versions. There's a metal version and a plastic version. And basically you put your mouthpiece into it and you attach it to your instrument so that no air is going into the instrument, but you're still holding the instrument like you normally would. And you're buzzing into the mouthpiece and you can finger along if you want. It doesn't really matter if you do, but you can tell if you're hitting the right pitches or not, because if you're putting bad information

with your buzz into the horn, you're going to get bad information out. So for me, that just brings it right to a point. Are you buzzing the note that you're supposed to be playing? So those are my two favorite tools to use in the practice room. I definitely agree with you on the metronome. And I love that last one. It's such a great way to stay mindful and fully present when you practice. What about skills that you think young musicians studying today should acquire in addition to learning to play their instruments? well it's just you know i mean of course for young people coming up now it's it's not a changed world because this is they know they grew up with social media they grew up with

computers and phones i did not so um there's a lot to learn on that front and i think that social media is a tool that can be used well or it can come back to bite you in the butt so if you use it well, you can actually grow an audience that is interested and active in what you're doing. I mean, because who would have thought 20 years ago that you could be kind of a low horn specialist and make a name for yourself? That is really, really unusual, but it's because of social media. Having said that, you can't have a strong social media presence if your playing is subpar. So, I mean, of course, it goes without saying you just have to be work really hard at your playing. But how to market yourself is is one of the things that I think everybody needs to learn. And, you know, how to have your own voice within that and try not to try not to just copy what somebody else is doing. So figuring out how to market yourself, because I think now's a great time to be a classical musician. You can create your own chamber music group, orchestra or series and like actually make a living doing it. But in order to do that, you have to be able to market what it is that you're doing. So for me, that's the biggest one.

And you're a great example of how you can really define what your career is. That's for sure. Yeah, I mean, I worked. And I think that the reason that that happened is because I listened to myself, I listened to my instincts and sort of what, what doors open for me. And, and then I decided to walk through them instead of staying with something that, you know, I thought I did at one time, I did want to be an orchestral, you know, musician for my career. But at some point that changed. And if I didn't listen to that voice, I would have just stayed there and I probably would have stopped teaching. But I'm much happier being able to do this. And I have a lot more freedom in my life because of that. Mm hmm. Amen. And, you know, also, I think you listen to yourself, but you work very hard as well. So it's not just wishful thinking, it's working towards a dream in the way that takes you there. I love that. Yeah. How about a favorite book that you would recommend to the listeners? And it doesn't have to be a music book. Yeah, it's, I will say, I mean, of course, there are always the traditional ones, like the inner game of tennis, and you know, all that kind of stuff. But I wanted to go a little bit non traditional with this, which is a book called The Music Lesson. It is about music, but The Music Lesson. And it's written by Victor Wooten, who is an electric bass player, and he plays with Bella Fleck, who's a banjo player, in case anyone doesn't know Bella Fleck and the Flecktones. And it's incredible. And he runs his own camp. He has like a large ranch or something, maybe in Tennessee. I can't I can't exactly remember. But it's an incredible book and it approaches music in a way that classical musicians don't think about music. So for me, I love, I love this book and I've actually had my students read it a few times, like read it as a, as a group. And then we like discuss it together. So that's my favorite book. I didn't know that book, but I'm going to go check it out as soon as we can have this call.

And how about a piece of advice that you received and that you would like to pass on to our listeners? well i've got i've got a few of those um and some of them i've already touched on a little bit but uh so i would say the first and foremost is you want to strive for excellence not perfection and that's you know and i've talked about that that perfect gene and uh i can't tell if classical musicians become classical musicians because they have this weird need for perfection or somehow through the process, we become perfectionists. I can't figure out which came first, the chicken or the egg in this one. But striving for excellence is a much better way to sort of move your career forward. And then another one is change your mind and your body will follow.

You know, if you think you can't play something, you probably can't play it. But if you think that you can play something, then the chances of you doing it greatly improve. Uh, and both of those, both of those actually are from, are from Carl, Carl Pittock, the person that I run audition mode with. And then the last one is, um, uh, which I've already mentioned is be demanding and caring of yourself when you're, when you're practicing and when you're performing, be demanding, Hold yourself to a high standard and talk to yourself in a way that is kind. Words to live by. Right.

How about a quick actionable tip that listeners could implement today in their practice room or in their musical lives? Yeah. So the, and I've said this for a long time. And again, I sort of mentioned it earlier, but in your professional life, give to yourself first. if you give to yourself first it will allow you to give more to others so if you have to if you have a class really early in the morning you have an 8 a.m class get into the practice room at 7 do your 55 and out before you go to that 8 a.m class i know it's tough but you're going to feel better about yourself and you're going to um you know just feel like you've

accomplished something by the time you walk into that first class and then have to sit there and take notes or do whatever. So give to yourself first, and then you'll be able to, it will help you to give more to others. That is truly awesome. Thank you, Denise. Absolutely. And where can people find you and connect with you? so on facebook uh denise try on horn is my professional page on instagram it's a dt low horn and on twitter it's also dt low horn and uh we have some audition mode uh we have uh an instagram which is am duo and then we have a facebook which is audition mode so you can find out information there. Of course, I have a website, denisetryon.com. And then AuditionMode

is auditionmode.com. And then there's Thinkific, which is the routine and the LHU, the Low Horns Unite. I think I covered everything. Oh, and YouTube. And I have a YouTube channel. I'll put a link in the show notes with all of these things. Great. Denise, thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me today. I really appreciate it. I wish we had more time, but you are a really wise person, my friend, and you're a trailblazer. I feel totally inspired and I'm sure everyone listening will feel it too. Thank you so much.

Thank you. Thank you guys so much for listening. You can find the show notes for this episode at mindoverfinger.com. I would also love to connect with you So join the conversation on social media Let me know what inspires you What specific questions you have about mindful practice And what other topics and guests

You would like to hear about in future episodes I am Mind Over Finger on all platforms Next week I'll be talking to Matthew Lipman, solo violist And member of the Chamber Music Society Of Lincoln Center And we discuss his development From beginner to world class artist

And practicing mindfully in preparation for both competitions and performances. If you've liked the episode and think that it has brought you some value, please take a minute to head over to iTunes to subscribe and leave a review. It's very much appreciated. Again, thank you and à bientôt.