The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 020 David Jalbert: Learning, Memorizing, & Finding Your Authentic Artistic Voice

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to the Mind Over Finger Podcast, episode number 20. Welcome to the Mind Over Finger Podcast, discussions on mindful music making, efficient practice, and building a purposeful career. And now, your host, Dr. Renée Paul-Gaultier. Hi everyone. I hope you enjoyed last week's episode with violinist Amy Beth Horman. I personally really loved her approach to nurturing genuine enthusiasm for music in her students and her view on how important a good disposition and a positive mindset are for an efficient practice session. Today, I'm so excited to have Canadian pianist David Jalbert on the show.

Starting point is 00:00:56 David is an extraordinary person, a brilliant artist, and a very dear friend. He is recognized for his virtuosic, warm, and elegant style, and he performs regularly as a soloist and recitalist all over the world. His solo recordings have all been praised internationally, and he's been named as one of the 15 Best Canadian Pianists of All Time by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation. David's been a guest soloist with numerous major orchestras, and he's a sought-after chamber musician. A national and international prize winner, he is a graduate from the Juilliard School, the Glenn Gould School, and the University of Montreal. And he is now a piano professor at the University of Ottawa in Canada's capital. We had a great conversation and covered many topics from finding yourself as an artist to the importance of confidence in our progress and how to learn and memorize music. David and I also have a little bonus for our French-speaking listeners.

Starting point is 00:02:02 We will continue the discussion in French following the English. Alors, si votre langue est le français, restez des notes pour attraper notre conversation en français aux alentours de la 55e minute. It was so wonderful to have this chance to discuss music making with David. As I just said, he's incredible and also hilarious. And I know you will really enjoy his approach to all things music and find tons of value in this episode. Let's go to the show. david albert i'm so excited to be talking with you today and we're also going to have some fun and continue the discussion in french a little bit later so for my french listeners stay tuned

Starting point is 00:02:53 david you and i have known each other forever and it's been such a joy to watch your career grow and grow throughout the years you and i had that chance to play chamber music together many times I'm a huge fan of your playing, and I always love watching your way to approach music and hearing about the way you learn and practice repertoire. And this is what I would love for us to discuss today. But before we dive in that good stuff, please tell us about you and your musical trajectory. What is your musical story? I'm not sure where to begin.

Starting point is 00:03:28 Perhaps with the fact that I began piano totally randomly at age four, I find that story somewhat amusing. We lived in a small town in Gaspésie at the time. And my dad asked me, would you like to take piano lessons? And I wasn't sure what a piano was. So I said yes. And here we are today. That's basically it.

Starting point is 00:03:50 Then we moved back to Rimouski, where I lived for a long time afterwards, which is a small town in eastern Quebec by the St. Lawrence River. and then i kept taking piano lessons for a little while uh while going to school and then i entered the conservatoire at age nine because you know the province of quebec and and you've been through that as well has a network of conservatories which is a really amazing resource for young musicians and it really keeps the whole province afloat with high level music making i find it's an extraordinary resource. So once I entered there, we had this amazing program. It was halftime conservatory and halftime school, you know, from grade four. So grade four, five, six,

Starting point is 00:04:39 I was at the school and having a half day to practice and to take music lessons and theory courses and history and harmony and all these things. So you get ahead very early. And the generation that did this in my hometown really produced a lot of musicians. And the program died out afterwards in later years. But that was really a shame, I thought, because it really gave me a good kick in the butt to keep going, you know. And Sœur Pauline Charon was the teacher teaching me there. She's a wonderful teacher. She was an organist and also a pianist. So she had a great ear for Bach and she was you know demanding and I'd never had a demanding teacher you know at that kind of level before and she forced me to practice a lot and I found it quite hard at first

Starting point is 00:05:34 I thought but then she put me on to doing competitions you know at 10 years old or so there's this national competition in Canada called the CMC the Canadian Music Competition and it covers the whole country. You start with your kind of regional stage and then if you do well enough, you go on to the provincial stage and then to the national final, right? Then you play different repertoire at each stage.

Starting point is 00:06:02 So I found that really motivating because I got to meet other kids who were doing what I was doing and hear them and meet astounding people such as René-Paul Gaultier, for instance, a 12-year-old miraculous violinist playing the Tchaikovsky Concerto. Like, you wouldn't believe.

Starting point is 00:06:21 I don't know if you've heard about her. Anyway, so this competition was really amazing for me because the first time I made it to the finals, I started hearing really prodigious young kids, you know, like you, like, but, you know, more specifically pianists in my case, you know, who were younger than me and were playing, you know, Prokofiev Third Concerto, and it blew my mind, and the music blew my mind.

Starting point is 00:06:50 And I think that from then on, like, I had the sort of motivation loop that would keep me going for the rest of my life, you know. I was hooked on piano because I wanted to get good enough to play this music that I'd heard, this fabulous concerto, this fabulous piece, and that became just paramount in my life. I had to improve, so I had to play this music and then there was always something else to look forward to, to work towards. So that's basically how I got going

Starting point is 00:07:26 and I stayed with this teacher for a long time but then I started winning competitions and things took off a little bit. I don't know if you want me to keep going at this point. Yes, I'd love to hear about what happened after the conservatory. Okay, okay, thanks. Just making sure, you know. So I moved to Montreal, which of course was the place to be at the time, and perhaps still is. Marc Durand was a wonderful piano teacher, teaching there at the Université de Montréal.

Starting point is 00:08:01 And because of the work that I've done at the Conservatoire, you get equivalencies for universities. So at the age when I should have started my undergraduate degree in piano performance, I had all the credits to start a master's. So I started my master's degree at Université de Montréal at 19 years old. and with this amazing teacher which for me um who for me sorry really uh awakened my technical ability you know i think i had decent ability already i'd done my 10 000 hours so to speak um but or more probably in your case more probably well i i i thrived perhaps this is worth mentioning i thrived on on the forbidden and uh perhaps still do i don't know but my teacher was uh was a nun of course and she was she was quite strict and she had rules about what i could play

Starting point is 00:09:05 and what i was not allowed to play yet and this turned out to be very important in my life i think because she would tell me no no no you are too young to learn this piece we'll do that in three years, or, you know, you should not play the Ravel concerto, because that's for girls. So what would I do after hours, you know, I'd be at the concerto while practicing during the day, like a good boy, and then I'd get home, and I'd get the scores for all this music that I wanted to learn. And then I'd practice another four hours at night, but not the stuff I was supposed to practice, the stuff that I was told not to. And I think that this was very, very important. to the 10,000 hours, if you will,

Starting point is 00:09:48 but also to developing my chops, my confidence in reading music that was deemed too difficult for me. It made it possible for me to learn these things because then, okay, I can learn harder stuff because I've been doing that at night and trying it out, seeing how it's written,

Starting point is 00:10:07 like these complicated rhythms, this counterpoint. Because I wanted to experience this music, put my fingers into it, I was doing this full-time basically so I think it really developed my pianism at a very early age you know and then when I got to study with Marc Durand I really was able to teach technique in such a refined way you know there was not a technical problem that he didn't have a very simple physical solution to right and then it really expands your horizons further because things that you thought looked unplayable all of a sudden you have a teacher who tells you no you

Starting point is 00:10:48 can do it this is how to do it practice this way it's going to work and then doing that and it worked so uh this was really huge for me and i'd worked at summer academies with him a little before this is around 18 19 years old so i'd already won cmc i won the osm competition right then and then I started touring so I was still in school but I had these concerts with some orchestras and also I was doing tours with Jeunesse Musicale du Canada at the time so solo recitals and also chamber music so at around 20 things were already rolling I was quite busy professionally even though I was still in school and learning and having a lot to learn after Université de Montréal I went to Toronto to the Glenn Gould School, which is a really good school.

Starting point is 00:11:43 It's branched off of the Royal Conservatory of Music. It's hosted in the same beautiful building. And then they have this program there. They still do. It's an artist diploma. It's a two-year program. And it's a really intensive program for, well, quote-unquote, star performers. There were about eight of us in it at the time only, you know.

Starting point is 00:12:07 And you would get lessons with a ton of teachers, you know. So Marc Durand was also teaching there. He was already my teacher in Montreal. But then I was in André Laplante's studio at the time, who's still one of my favorite pianists on earth and a good friend. Leon Fleischer, the great American pianist, was traveling there about six times a year to give masterclasses to our little group of students.

Starting point is 00:12:35 And John Perry also. And then through these four kind of main teachers, I also had masterclasses with Gilbert Kellisch, Marilyn Engel, Claude Franck. So a lot of, you know, celestial luminaries of piano. And it was extremely confusing because I simply had too many teachers, you know, and you'd end up playing the same piece for all of them. And they all had different things to say, often contradictory. so you found yourself preparing Schumann's Carnival to play for André Laplante one week and then you tried to adapt your performance to what you knew he was going to like and then you had to play it for Fleischer and you'd also try to change things around in order to

Starting point is 00:13:22 have Fleischer look kindly upon you and so it went for all the other teachers and then you played for Marc Durand and then John Perry and it was dizzying you know so after two years of that I think I was playing at a very good level but I was mighty confused about who I was and somehow I got into the artist diploma at Juilliard after that I met Jerome Lowenthal at music academy of the west and he became really one of the great people uh in my life i love him to bits and we're still in touch all the time so i met him in santa barbara over a summer in california and then i auditioned for this artist diploma at juilliard and and got in and he was wonderful for me because the only thing he cared about was not whether your schubert was was timed

Starting point is 00:14:23 exactly in the way that Fleischer desired it, or if your French music was played with exactly the colors and the timing that Marc Durand wanted, he didn't care so much about these things. He cared about you being a convincing musician with a strong personality. And because I would show up there somewhat confused about what to do, because I felt like there were so many rules coming from so many directions that I was trying to impose upon my playing, it didn't feel very natural anymore. It didn't feel mine anymore. I felt a little boxed in, you know, and he was really instrumental in releasing me from all of this with nice snappy comments, you know, like, well, why would I have to listen to this? You know, if you play the passage in a way that was,

Starting point is 00:15:21 you know correct or that you'd been instructed was the correct way to do it he'd just interrupt you and tell you you were boring and that you were wasting his time so this was so good for me it forced me to constantly make choices rather than be in this labyrinth in my head as to what i wanted to do musically he forced me to have an answer and to have it be the one that felt the most natural to me after all I'd learned what does it distill down to who am I you know and and it really made my playing I think my personality come into much sharper focus at that time so I'm immensely grateful for that and that's right around the time I started recording actually so thankfully, there's very little trace of my playing before then. So I already had an agent

Starting point is 00:16:21 by then, in fact, because as I said, I was already performing a lot in Canada. And Mr. Lowenthal and his partner, Ursula Oppens, is an amazing, great American pianist who's recorded so many, you know, premieres, creations of great works by Elliot Carter, John Corigliano, Frederick Jewski. She put me in touch for my first recording with Corigliano and Jewski and arranged for me to meet them. And that was spectacular for me because I got to work with them on the pieces that I then recorded for my first CD. So I felt then I was kind of on my way. And I was finished with school and I moved back to Canada and started playing full time in earnest. That's such an amazing story, David. I find that it illustrates perfectly,

Starting point is 00:17:16 you know, how, of course, you have the interest and the passion for it, but when given the right environment, how one can really explore, you know, his or her gifts fully. And I agree with you, the conservatoire is such an incredible element of the musical life in Quebec and and such an important institution that I hope continues to thrive for generations but even what you were talking about in terms of growing and discovering so much about yourself and about you know what's out there in the world through competitions and I love how you were you know discussing this importance of performing and the learning experience as you were still in school, because performing is an experience that you can't learn in the practice room. And it is something that

Starting point is 00:18:10 wants, you know, that we need to experience to learn. Absolutely. Yes. And this is so great, you know, talking about sorting out who you are and becoming a convincing musician. I love the terms that you use of releasing these limitations and, you know, finding this way, finding your way out of the labyrinth. This story, to me, is just so inspiring and really kind of a message to try a bunch of things, try to find the right environment for yourself and try to find who you are, but also not be afraid of challenges such as seeking out performance opportunities and entering competitions. Great story. Thank you so much for sharing. Oh, you're most welcome. And what's coming up for you in the next few months? Are there any Northworthy projects that you're currently working

Starting point is 00:18:57 on for the spring that you'd like the listeners to know about well one thing that's made me very happy i think i mentioned uh hearing discovering the prokofiev third concerto as a child and for me prokofiev was really the catalyst you know you think usually young pianists would thrive when discovering chopin or rakmaninov or tchaikovsky you know and for me it was prokofiev which is very odd. And I now have the option of playing what I want, which I consider myself very lucky to be able to do. I decided a couple of years ago that I would learn and perform all the Prokofiev sonatas. So I'm finishing the cycle this spring. I think right after this podcast airs. I'll be on tour in BC and I'm playing not just Prokofiev because I want the audiences to

Starting point is 00:19:53 like me. But I will be, you know, every time I play recital these days, you know, I always have at least one Prokofiev sonata in there. And now I'll be playing the fourth. For the first time, I'm learning it right now. It's so exciting. Every time I learn one of those pieces, there's nine of them in total but they're quite hefty as you know and this spring I'll be playing the last recital of only Prokofiev sonatas several times in April and I'm kind of looping the loop on this cycle so it's been a marvelous adventure and maybe I'll think about recording them as well one day that would be a recording to purchase for sure it sounds like a great spring oh yeah it's fun there's there's much else going on but there's the university as well it's always busy it's

Starting point is 00:20:44 always exciting yes and you know i'm gonna put a link in the show notes to you know your website and everywhere we can find you we you won't escape us okay david as i mentioned earlier i've always loved hearing about the way you approach practicing and i'm so happy we get to chat about this today can we start by diving into your process for learning and practicing repertoire you were just mentioning learning the prokofiev sonata what does that look like for you it looks like having a clear musical plan before i even set my fingers into the into the score you know i i find that it is so important to have a clear idea of what the music is like what the structure of it is i mean The musical structure, the harmonic structure, the sense of where the phrases are, where the sections are, what the colors are, the moods, the emotions that the piece tries to communicate, all these things to me, the more of it you can have in your head before you put your hands in the piece,

Starting point is 00:21:54 the easier it's going to be if we're talking about learning efficiently learning quickly learning well those are really really important things for me and I had to discover that kind of quickly I had to figure that out and I'm sure we all do you know it's hard to learn to practice efficiently and most of the time I don't think you learn to practice efficiently until you really have to um in my case uh when i finished school i all of a sudden i found myself having to play a lot more repertoire than than i'd ever had to because you know in school you learn your recital program if you do big competitions okay then you have to have a lot of repertoire in your hands at the same time but a lot of it will be stuff that you've played over the years it's your

Starting point is 00:22:41 big solo room. But all of a sudden I had 40 concerts a year, you know, with different programs, a lot of new chamber music, new concertos, new solo music. And it's a lot to learn, you know. And the first year I had a bit of a burnout, you know. I drove myself crazy trying to learn all this music because I wasn't used to learning fast. I was used to taking my time and taking in all the great advice from my teachers to, you know, practice very, very slowly and to really learn the piece with your arms, to discover the motions,

Starting point is 00:23:18 to give yourself a massage with the piece. I still like all those techniques, you know, they really work into really figuring out how you want to move, to learn your technical choreography in the piece, right? And to always control the sound and have beautiful free sound without tension anywhere in your body in your arms and that takes time and it takes patience

Starting point is 00:23:39 so that was my way of going about it and all of a sudden i had to learn stuff you know snap snap chop chop right now you know so when you don't have the luxury of time you discover that in fact you can learn faster and and you can learn faster and quite as well as you had been learning stuff But it's like you have to go through that ring of fire, you know, in order to discover that you're able to accelerate the process, that you're going to have to step outside your comfort zone. Yes, I can memorize this sooner than I usually do. Yes, I can get this up to speed sooner than I usually do. And I felt like I had a few years where I had to learn how to practice more efficiently. because i had more to to learn and then once i was through those years i i was a different person

Starting point is 00:24:37 in terms of speed and ease of learning practicing and in terms of efficiency um this kind of trial by fire really uh made me now a very efficient practicer um i believe i might have strayed away from your question a little bit but i thought that point was worth making very important yeah And I am sure that some people don't need to suffer quite as much as I did in order to get to this point. No, they can listen to what you're about to say and learn from it. But, I mean, I did meet people who were, you know, at a young age, very, very fast learners and very confident. You know, it's really about confidence in so many ways, right? I find that I was probably able to learn quite as fast and almost as well before I was 22, 23.

Starting point is 00:25:31 But I don't think I trusted myself to do so or that I trusted myself to take that into the world, right, to take that on stage after less time than usual and believe that it's going to work because I can do this. And that's such a key part of it. I find, I mean, technique, there's so much to it, right? But the key aspect of the great virtuosos is that they're confident. They have full belief that what they're going to do is going to work. They're not going to miss that run. They're not going to miss that passage.

Starting point is 00:26:07 It doesn't matter how much pressure you put on them. And, of course, you achieve that through endless practicing, you know. but the ultimate goal is to make it look like you didn't have to practice like it's so easy for you and and and that's really uh that's the essence of virtuosity you know but that very essence is as much about work as it is about self-belief you know you have to just decide this is going to work I can make it sound great. It worked in my practice room 10 times. That's enough.

Starting point is 00:26:44 It doesn't need to work in my practice room 2,000 times before I trust it in public, you know. And that's when you really start saving time. And I would compare that, you know, like you watch great pianists who achieve that level of absolute ease, you know. Martha Argerich, obviously. Vladimir Horowitz. But these are such virtuosos that they make everything sound like they're improvising it. And you can transfer that to other arts or other sports even.

Starting point is 00:27:14 You know, I'm a tennis fanatic, of course. And to me, watching Roger Federer play on grass with this absolute ease and absolute belief is really the same as watching Martha Argerich play or watching Meryl Streep act, you know. technique is so perfect that everything seems to just emanate from them in the most natural way possible um i remember federer saying in an interview that when he was playing at his best the feeling the only way you can describe it is that he plays every shot without having any fear of missing ever so total belief total self-confidence and and the best concerts i've

Starting point is 00:28:01 played have been when I've been in that state where nerves just can't distract you. They can't be there because you're beyond that in terms of how at ease you are with the work that you're about to play. You reach the stage of flow. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I don't know if I've skipped a lot of steps in my describing that, but that's the goal, right? That's the goal. And my way to get there faster than I used to, or to get close to that anyway, is to have a great understanding of the piece before I put my hands into it. Because I find that if you do start learning, and perhaps especially for pianists, because we have so many more notes on top of each other to learn, because we have cross rhythms, it's very long. You know, it's a longer process, I find, for pianists to learn a particular piece. You know, if you're playing chamber music with pianists, you know that the pianist will need a few more days than the string player is to be able to get through the part somewhat.

Starting point is 00:29:08 Anyway, that's my sense. Maybe I'm just terrible, but I always feel like I need a little more time than my fellow string players. But because of that, I find that if you really know where the music is going before you put your hands into it, you save a lot of time. because when you're groping in the dark in a score that's really thick and complex, say with new work, sometimes you can't have the luxury of listening to several versions of them.

Starting point is 00:29:33 You can always study the score, but it's not quite as instantaneous. You have to grope in the dark for so long and then it takes a lot longer to figure out a piece. So in order to be efficient, I always tell pianists, make sure that you know the piece before you start learning it.

Starting point is 00:29:49 And then it's also much more pleasant to learn fun to work on and you achieve your goals much more quickly and then and it allows you to look for your real interpretation more quickly to be doing the real thing that matters which is to look at the music and what you want to do with it what it means to you and what your performance of it is going to be like and do you do that by listening to a lot of versions and combination of listening and score study exactly yes um and sometimes you know if you have the luxury of being a teacher, I find that teaching the piece ahead of time is amazing. And I've tried to do that over the years, you know, if I had to play a new concerto, you know, miraculously,

Starting point is 00:30:33 one of my students would find themselves learning it the year before. And that's really, really useful. And after that, once you have that clear idea, what would be the next step? Then I sit at the piano and I start, you know, practicing the piece, playing the music. I'll always focus first on getting it memorized if we're talking about solo music because it's always the biggest hurdle to between you and the performance you know and the solo piece as a pianist it's how soon can I get this memorized so that I don't have to worry about it and I find that as soon as it's memorized then that's acquired and you can really work on making the piece better, making the tempos exactly what you want them to be.

Starting point is 00:31:23 You see, I tend to memorize pieces before I'm really able to play them, in fact. I'll memorize them in slow motion if necessary. But that's the first goal when I start practicing. So figuring out, of course, the fingerings, the tricks, how am I going to play this or that? And after just, say, three times reading through any given piece, I'm already memorizing. and then uh it usually doesn't take me very very long uh but once i've got the piece memorized once

Starting point is 00:31:53 i can play through it with the book closed without stopping hopefully um then i find the real work begins but lo and behold you've done a lot of the nitty-gritty work already and and now i feel free after that to really be a musician you know and i i want to get you know i want to eat the vegetables I can get to the dessert. I think my students are going to think I paid you for this because I so agree with you. I really try to convince them to memorize as they go because I feel like we approach things differently when we memorize it. It just is, you know, I could pull out a bunch of studies I have sitting on the shelf nearby about how memorization really helps us learn the material at a deeper level of course and master it quickly so i wish i wish more of

Starting point is 00:32:45 them would take me up on that and you know that's a great segue because i really wanted to talk to you about memorization and maybe we can come back to practicing but you know i'm really curious about how memorization works for a pianist i play the violin we have to worry a lot about bowings and movements of the bow arm and the left hand but you guys have so many notes and i feel like memorization is part of a pianist's life in a way that is not always true for other instrumentalists. So, you know, for sure, if you're a violinist touring the world as a soloist, memorization is a big part of your life. But in my daily life where I perform a lot of occasional solo and recitals, but a lot of chamber music and orchestra, I use music a lot more. And I often see pianists

Starting point is 00:33:30 memorizing passages in the context of chamber music or even collaborative responsibilities. I've seen you do it where there's a difficult passage with tons of notes or a bad page turn and the pianist ends up just memorizing it. Can you please, now I'm really curious about that memorization process. Do you have a method? I'm sure it must be different depending on the type of repertoire or the genre, but do you have, what's your method to memorizing music? Look, the simple way to tell you this is that I just play through it until I know it. And then what I do is I'll do it section by section. You know, I'll play, say, the first two pages of, say, this Prokofiev Fourth Sonata I'm learning.

Starting point is 00:34:15 And then I'll turn to the third page. And then I'll try to play the first two pages as far as I can by heart. And then little question marks arise. You're like, oh, is that an E flat or a G? That you'd never thought about it before you tried closing the book. You thought, oh, I probably got this. Then you find out exactly what you don't got. if you allow me. So you turn back and you're like, oh, that's an E flat. And then you'll

Starting point is 00:34:40 remember that because if you've had to look for it, it tends to stick a little better, right? So then I'll try to get through those two pages or that short section by heart. And by then, it's pretty much memorized. Of course, there's different types of memory. There's the visual memory there's the oral memory that's a u r l naturally and and the sort of uh physical choreographic choreographic how do you pronounce that goddamn word in english i don't know choreographical memory god life is hard for us frankfurt so uh so those three types of memory are all playing an essential part in how you manage to learn a piece. I find that one important aspect of my memorization process

Starting point is 00:35:34 is to have the visual memory transfer from being a memory of the page itself into being a memory of my hands on the keyboard as I play the piece. And once you achieve that, you've really freed yourself from the score. you don't want to forget the score you want to remember that accent or that mezzo forte and what have you but i find that when the visual cues are transferred from having to look up to the score to seeing where that lies on the keyboard where your hands are um i i find them a lot further naturally that spells out being detached from the score in itself but um i find that that's the key objective right and and that's something you can accelerate right if as you learn the piece

Starting point is 00:36:23 you're not glued to the score if you right away you try to look at your hands oh what does this look like and then you'll probably catch some stupid fingerings and doing so that's always a good thing um or or have different ideas about what it should look like choreographically because when your eyes are glued to that two by four in front of you with music on it um you're not really paying attention to what you're doing on the keyboard what you're doing with your arms am i moving right am i jumping stiffly uh to this or that chord and uh i think it can be much more efficient if you right away uh take a chance to look at your hands as you play something which forces you to memorize very small bits of the piece which eventually all add up to knowing the

Starting point is 00:37:10 piece itself by heart right you just fill in the gaps eventually but all these little ways to not take detours and how you learn because you will eventually look at how your gestures work on the keyboard look right now you know like okay this little two bar pattern okay i can play this i don't need to look at this girl okay what am i doing what are my fingerings and then you've learned it you know and what you're describing sounds a little bit like what i talked to the students about and i called mapping where you um and matt you know the process of mapping is different for everyone because we all understand things a different way but and you also mentioned earlier how from a young age you you know through the conservatoire you had access to theory classes

Starting point is 00:37:58 and history classes so i'm sure that in your case this whole um harmonic evolution in the piece and, you know, the different idiomatic elements of certain repertoire are internalized in you at this point. But the mapping process, you know, means to, you look at a score and you see the patterns and you see the chord progressions and you see the different articulation and all of this becomes integrated in the memorization experience. And when you're memorizing it, you know, when you're actively trying to memorize as you learn, all of these things get noticed so much quickly. And I love what you were talking about, how you try to play by memory and then you make a little mistake and go back and check because I was reading a bunch of studies about that topic and they do explain how this is a form of testing, what you're mentioning, where you're kind of testing your memory. And we really learn through testing this act of trying to recall elements is really what helps us learn faster.

Starting point is 00:39:02 This is absolutely true, yes. The testing is, I guess, exactly what I do and what I tell my students to do as well in order to memorize quicker. Just try. Have you tried? Well, try one page. Let me close the book, play as far as you can. And so what is it you missed? Okay, look, it's a C sharp. You'll remember now, right? And the harmony is, of course, essential. And I'm very lucky to have a very good ear and to have been trained from a young age. I had this seminar at Université de Montréal, a harmony seminar for pianists with Luce Baudet, who was an extraordinary teacher of harmony. She was a student of Nadia Boulanger in Paris. So she brutalized us with that course. in the seminar for pianists she would make us sit in front of the class and do transpositions she'd put a beethoven sonata in front of you okay so this is in d major uh let's do it in a flat

Starting point is 00:40:02 major and here is your tempo um so this was really really a great experience and growing up fast harmonically however as much as that's helped me uh her amazing clarity about harmonic language has really been a big help in memorizing large tonal works right especially complex romantic ones you know like say third chopin sonata right these works that modulated a lot and and very complex ways but within the realm of tonality it's really helped clarify things for me and for sure it helps memory a lot because if you have a sense of harmony you're much less likely to to put the wrong chord with pianists it's often between the two hands you know if they have memory problems uh people who are likely to have memory problems are able to grope with the left hand to

Starting point is 00:40:58 find the right chord to match the right hand and and not find it right and and that's something that's kind of out of the question for me you know if i have something that looks like a b major chord in my right hand. I'm not going to go and play D minor in the left hand as I'm groping around to find what I should be playing, because my brain refuses to do that, right? It's been hardwired, internalized, as you say. However, I play a lot of 20th century music, and I memorize that too, and I memorize Ligeti etudes, and that music, I still use harmony as a way to memorize, even though it is not real harmony you know i will look at chords i mean cluster even and i will remember it by okay so this is a sort of jazzed up a c major with a g sharp you know and i get a

Starting point is 00:41:55 picture of the chord in my head and i'll remember it in relation to other clusters but i see a connection a musical connection between them and a logical progression between them and even though it's not pure harmony in the narrative of the music in my head these things follow each other and must follow each other and that is how i i think i managed to be solid memory wise because even in atonal music i construct i map the piece as you say and i'm able to to forge a musical path that is inevitable i cannot go from this cluster to that other cluster that's unrelated to it or because i see a narrative progression which replaces tonal harmony amen i love that there's so much in what you just said that we can all start applying today

Starting point is 00:42:51 if we're not already we can talk about memorizing fugues such great information how about a round of rapid fire questions before we switch to french oh yeah sure as you want for the people who are dreaming of a career that resemble yours Can you tell us a little bit about what your life looks like? Well, my life is very interesting. I find I'm very lucky to have it. Now I'm a full-time professor of piano at the University of Ottawa. I've been for 10 years.

Starting point is 00:43:19 For eight years before that, I was just a full-time pianist. So I've had the chance to experience both worlds. I'd say I was ready to teach when the offer came because it's very lonely otherwise. And to see the same people week after week, to follow them, to me is immensely enriching. And I value that a lot. So what my life looks like as a consequence of this blessing is complete hell between September and May. And then relative relief and freedom in the summer.

Starting point is 00:43:55 So because I still have a very active career, I perform a lot during September, sorry, during the school year, right? And that's extremely difficult and demanding, rewarding also. But by the end of term, I'm kind of down in the dumps, you know, I'm so tired because you're so busy with email, with teaching. And then you have to practice at night. You basically have to practice at night. There's no other way. You know, you've been, say, at work from 10 a.m. to 6 p.m., and then you come home and you do email, and you're like,

Starting point is 00:44:29 okay, got to practice four hours now. Just have to, because I'm playing this concerto next week, and this is not going to learn itself. And you want to remain very competitive. I don't want anyone to know by my playing that I'm teaching. That's very important to me, you know. So that's what my life is like during the school year. And then, you know, you get long breaks in this job, which is great because then I can I have like a month over the holidays and then almost four months during the summer.

Starting point is 00:45:01 So it's really manageable. But with the travel, one needs to be very, very organized. That's for sure. My life needs to be regimented to the day. i know exactly what say any day six or seven months from now is going to be like because i've had to plan the travel i've had to plan even the practicing down to a t you know every every single day for a long time ahead has to be completely planned out is that a good answer oh that's amazing it definitely planning is key i find for a lot of professionals and that's Often the biggest awakening for people who are leaving school and entering the work life is how they thought it was going to get less busy and they quickly find out it does not slow down. It actually speeds up.

Starting point is 00:45:54 Oh, that's right. Oh, you need to be organized. And I think that in school, it's an important skill to teach students and the ones who are organized from day one have a much easier time when crunch time comes, you know, at the end of the school year. where they have a lot of things to perform and exams at the same time you can tell the ones who've been planning their time well and those who didn't and they pay a high price yes what skills do you think young musicians studying today should acquire in addition to learning to play their instruments maybe organize their time organization i find i mean since i talked about something very practical and organization i i think culture is so important and because we are operating in the

Starting point is 00:46:43 high arts you know and and of course there's so many important aspects um of it that we need to look at in different ways scientifically we were just talking about different techniques to memorize to learn uh you know cognitive behavioral techniques to teach yourself a piece this is all super important to know. But we're in high culture, right, in classical culture. And I find that the students that have an interest in literature and cinema in history are, you know, they kind of have an advantage because it is an integral part of what we do. And certainly something that i've always been interested in you know every other art and and and reading you know because of the social media age i find that the attention span of my students is diminishing year

Starting point is 00:47:40 after year because we're glued to these phones all the time and i see it in myself you know i have to tell myself no no more reading twitter you know you keep scrolling you keep scrolling and you have to pick up a book and I find that students who grew up with that are not they tend to not be well read and the few ones who are into arts into literature and into culture generally and cultural history really have a leg up on the others because it's so connected to what we do it brings so much to what we do you know your culture can be a huge source of inspiration of a sense of style also, you know, and different composers from different periods.

Starting point is 00:48:29 It's very, very important to be able to talk about the music that you're playing, to be able to talk about these composers, about these eras that should be utterly fascinating to everyone studying music. Yeah, such a great answer. Do you have a performance that stayed with you throughout the years and why? Hmm. Well, I've seen a great many fantastic concerts in my lifetime, I guess. As for my

Starting point is 00:48:59 own experience, I remember while I performed the Goldberg Variations, as you know, I recorded them. And so it's been a big staple of my repertoire for a long time. And there was one concert, one performance of it in Lyon in France, where it felt like it came together in the most magical way and I had the perfect piano I had the perfect level of preparation you know right that week I was so on top of the piece I'd performed it you know maybe 15 times already but it felt like that night is the best I've ever felt on stage with something this difficult and elaborate perhaps so that's stayed with me you know one of those moments where you really feel you've achieved something that you can be proud of um yeah perhaps that's uh that's that's the one that i remember

Starting point is 00:49:50 the most fondly uh for now that's a great feeling and do you have a favorite tool in the practice room oh metronome oh the metronome i i i find rhythm uh the thing that i talk about the most when i teach and an absolute core element of of playing of music obviously it seems obvious but oh my god do we ever not practice with proper rhythm often as pianists it's it's just outrageous you know and you look at conductors and how key it is to have a rhythmic spine to everything you do how it organizes phrasing and structure and technique and technique you know it's like trying to be a ballet dancer uh who doesn't know when to jump or when to land the jumps you know if you don't have a good sense of rhythm your whole choreography is rhythmic right if you don't put

Starting point is 00:50:50 the uh the you know the rhythm or the weight in the right places everything falls apart nothing can work and if it can still work technically it'll sound bad musically so metronome absolutely I tell students to practice with metronome all the time. They say, even in Chopin? Yes, even in Chopin. That's funny. Do you have a favorite book that you would like to recommend to our listeners? And it does not have to be a music book, but it can be a music book.

Starting point is 00:51:21 I tried to think about that. Well, you know, I wanted to say War and Peace because it's wonderful. But more to the point about musical culture and history, But Jan Swafford, who's an astonishing writer and biographer of composers, he's based at Yale or Harvard. I'm not sure he's a composer, but he's been writing astonishing biographies and biographies of musicians that are really suited to our age. He has a famous Charles Ives book, but I would recommend the Brahms biography

Starting point is 00:51:57 because that's a composer that I never read a biography of. and I was very curious about him and that book I found it so captivating so fast paced it was the first time I read a biography of a great musician that was a page turner

Starting point is 00:52:13 I couldn't put it down and I learned so much from it and it made me reach out and listen to music by Brahms that I didn't know and discover it and the analysis is so clear, eloquent and he's also got a Beethoven biography out which I hear is amazing

Starting point is 00:52:30 and and he's working on a mozart so i find this guy is really such a good recommendation because so many of the classical great bios of of you know beethoven or other composers tend to be dry and long and and jan swafford has a sense of narrative that keeps you hooked and that's so important if you want to learn you have to be entertained i find especially nowadays with our shorten the tension spans and these books are long but but they flow so well for biographies i really recommend his biographies of composers that sounds great david what about a piece of advice that was given to you that you would like to pass on to the listener well i i know it's been said on other episodes of your podcast but two words listen hard you know for me it was key

Starting point is 00:53:24 because it's true, I remember James Ennis saying this on your podcast, that students often, they measure the output by the input, right? By how much energy and emotion they feel as they play, they assume that the output bears the marks of this. And sometimes we have so much tension that we don't actually hear what's coming out of the piano. And look, in a world where everything is recorded everything has to be perfect you better know what you sound like for real you need to learn to listen in that way and we're so lucky now with apps with our phones we can record ourselves so easily so listen to what you actually sound like and record yourself and see what the truth is because it's amazing how different it can be from what your experience of

Starting point is 00:54:14 it of playing the piece is that's great advice how about a quick actionable tip that listeners can implement today in their musical lives? If you're playing anything fast or difficult, are you able to play slowly and musically and movingly? Is there music in between each note? I find that for pianists, perhaps that applies only to pianists. In fact, and not to wind players who tend to not want to play as slow as they can, or even string players.

Starting point is 00:54:44 But for pianists, we tend to learn fast when we want to play something fast. And the music we play is so glorious. And we're so lucky to have the rep that we do. And we're luckier than, say, tuba players, you know? So if you play any piece by Chopin, even a fast one, in super slow motion, it should be absolutely glorious. It doesn't matter where the tempo is, right?

Starting point is 00:55:11 And I find that a super important way to practice. Can you play your fast movement of a Beethoven sonata? super slow but can it be a very very musical experience can you keep me listening to it you know for 20 minutes rather than 10 and and i find that if you can do that if you're musical all the time whenever you put your hands on the piano even if you're doing scales if you're always putting music into it it always shines through something stays from it even in faster speeds David, you're simply the best. You said so many things today that are important for people to hear.

Starting point is 00:55:48 And I'm so grateful that you took the time to sit with me and share your wisdom with us. It's been a real pleasure. Thank you guys so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this chat with David Jalbert. I love and completely agree with his view on the importance of confidence in the learning process. And it's a great reminder for me to try and always find ways to nurture the self-confidence in myself and in my students. I also walk away really inspired by all the information he gave us about learning and

Starting point is 00:56:25 memorizing. I could not agree more with him that memorization begins even before we start to practice a piece on our instruments, but that it starts with getting familiar with the score first. I would love to know what your favorite takeaway from today's show is. So look for Mind Over Finger on Instagram or Facebook and join the conversation on social media. Let me know what inspires you, what specific questions you have about mindful practice, and what other topics and guests you would like to hear about in future episodes. If you're looking for a community of mindful practice enthusiasts,

Starting point is 00:57:01 join the Mind Over Finger tribe at facebook.com slash groups slash Mind Over Finger tribe. There, you'll find inspiration, motivation, and support, as well as information and discussions on how to take your practice to the next level and enjoy the process. As always, you can find the show notes for this episode and more resources on mindful and deliberate practice at mindoverfinger.com. You can find more information about David by visiting his website at davidjalbert.com. Next week, I'll be talking to Emmanuel Abraham, violinist and founder of the hugely popular Facebook group, The Violin Guild. We discuss his unorthodox path and his approach to mindful and efficient practice. If you've enjoyed this episode and found value, please do me a favor and head over to iTunes to rate and leave a review. The reviews help people find the podcast, and I really appreciate it.

Starting point is 00:57:59 French speakers, stay with me and to the rest of you, thank you and à bientôt. enregistrements ont été acclamés par la critique et il a été nommé l'un des 15 meilleurs pianistes canadiens de tous les temps par la CBC. Son intégrale des Nocturnes de forêt a été sélectionnée comme la version moderne de référence par le jury de la Tribune des critiques de disques de France Culture et ses enregistrements des Prélus des Fugues de Shostakovich, des variations Goldberg de Bach et de musique américaine et russe ont tous connu des succès similaires. David s'est produit avec de nombreux orchestres majeurs et est un chambriste accompli.

Starting point is 00:59:00 Il a été lauréat de plusieurs concours nationaux et internationaux, a remporté cinq prix opus et a été quatre fois nommé au Prix Junot. Il est maintenant professeur à l'Université d'Ottawa. Dans notre conversation, David nous parle de son parcours musical et nous offre

Starting point is 00:59:15 plein de bons trucs pour pratiquer de façon intentionnelle et efficace. Ça a été un grand plaisir pour moi d'avoir la chance de parler avec David qui est un artiste extraordinaire et aussi un ami très cher. J'espère que vous allez vous sentir aussi inspiré que je le suis par son approche de la musique.

Starting point is 00:59:32 Vous pouvez en savoir plus sur la pratique intentionnelle en visitant mindoverfinger.com et vous pouvez aussi me trouver sur Instagram et Facebook en cherchant Mind Over Finger. Si ça vous intéresse, vous pouvez aussi joindre le groupe de pratique intentionnelle en visitant facebook.com baroblic groups

Starting point is 00:59:51 baroblic pratique intentionnelle et je vais mettre des liens dans les notes qui viennent avec ce podcast. Vous pouvez aussi trouver plus d'informations sur David en visitant davidjalbert.com. Je prévois de recevoir d'autres invités francophones dans les mois qui suivent, alors c'est un rendez-vous. Et maintenant, ma discussion avec le merveilleux David Jalbert. David Jalbert, c'était un énorme plaisir pour moi de t'avoir ici aujourd'hui.

Starting point is 01:00:22 C'est tout le plaisir pour moi, René-Paul. Comme je disais durant la portion anglaise de notre conversation, on se connaît depuis toujours et c'est vraiment formidable pour moi de voir ta carrière évoluer et toujours continuer de grandir. J'ai toujours adoré ton jeu et admiré ta façon de travailler, alors c'est vraiment une grosse gâterie pour moi de pouvoir te parler de pratique aujourd'hui. Avant qu'on saute dans tout ça, j'aimerais faire un petit retour sur ton parcours et comment t'es arrivé où tu es aujourd'hui. Pour ceux qui n'ont pas entendu la conversation en anglais, peux-tu s'il te plaît nous raconter ton histoire dans tes propres mots? Eh bien, j'ai commencé le piano à 4 ans à Paspébiac, petite ville de la Gaspésie, parce que mon père m'a demandé si je voulais des leçons de piano et j'ai dit oui, n'ayant aucune idée de ce qu'était un piano. Donc, voilà. C'est comme ça que ça a commencé. Ensuite, je prenais des leçons avec une dame qui habitait pas loin.

Starting point is 01:01:21 Et puis, on est redéménagé à Rimouski, qui a un conservatoire. Et puis, à 9 ans, je suis entré au conservatoire. Et puis là, j'étais en quatrième année à l'école. Et puis, il y avait ce programme extraordinaire de mi-temps musique. Donc, on faisait une demi-journée à l'école et une demi-journée au conservatoire, tous les jours. Donc, en quatrième, cinquième, sixième année, j'avais la chance d'être dans ce programme-là et puis ça m'a vraiment aidé énormément parce qu'on avait une pratique supervisée tous les jours. Et puis, on avait des cours, évidemment, de théorie, de solfège, d'harmonie, histoire de la musique, tout ça. Donc, ça pouvait faire avancer notre niveau énormément. Puis, la génération qui a suivi ce programme-là, ça a donné énormément de musiciens de très, très bons niveaux. Malheureusement, ils n'ont pas continué très longtemps avec ce programme, mais c'est quelque chose d'extraordinaire.

Starting point is 01:02:13 J'ai trouvé que ça m'a vraiment lancé sur la bonne voie, en fait. Et puis, Sœur Pauline Charon, qui était mon prof à ce moment-là, était aussi beaucoup plus sévère. Alors, tout d'un coup, au conservatoire, j'avais une professeure qui me faisait vraiment travailler, qui m'inscrivait à des concours. And then to participate in the CMC, the Canada Music Contest, from the age of 10 years old, for me, it was really a great, great motivation because, of course, I was competitive like all the little guys, but to have the chance to hear other young people who did what I did and who worked hard, but to hear them play and especially to discover the music they played. parce qu'à 10 ans, je n'avais pas une grande connaissance du répertoire de piano. Et puis, j'ai commencé à le découvrir en écoutant d'autres jeunes musiciens qui, souvent, étaient plus jeunes et bien meilleurs que moi. Alors, ça me donnait un coup de pied au derrière.

Starting point is 01:03:11 Et puis, je trouvais ça fascinant. Et pour moi, c'est ça, le fait d'entendre des nouvelles œuvres que je voulais absolument pouvoir jouer. Donc, je me disais, il faut que je devienne assez bon pour apprendre telle ou telle pièce que j'ai entendue. Et puis, c'est ça qui m'a gardé motivé à travers toutes les années du secondaire, qui sont parfois plus difficiles pour la motivation. Moi, c'était l'amour de la musique et le désir de devenir assez fort

Starting point is 01:03:40 pour pouvoir jouer toute la musique que je découvrais, que je trouvais extraordinaire. Et puis, comme je me permettais, en fait, de l'apprendre, même si on me disait de ne pas le faire, ce qui sans doute était très utile. Because Sœur Pauline, an extraordinary teacher, she was trying to enrich me a little bit. She was right. So she said to me, you have to practice only the pieces that I gave you, that you are supposed to play at such a competition, at your exam. And then stop wasting your time when you practice,

Starting point is 01:04:11 to try to read the repertoire that you will only play in a few years. So, obviously, with this prohibition, all of this became much more tempting, much more sexy, you understand. So, I went to the library of the conservatory in Cachette, and then I took out the scores of all these taboo pieces, and I brought them home. And then, in the evening, after my piano day, after my school day, I spent hours reading and learning these forbidden pieces, which were too difficult for me. Et puis, je les apprenais pour vrai. Ensuite, quand venait le temps de les apprendre quelques années plus tard, je les connaissais déjà. Et puis, je pense que c'est l'histoire des 10 000 heures de Malcolm Gladwell.

Starting point is 01:04:55 Pour moi, ça a vraiment été le fait qu'on m'interdisait, qu'on me disait que telle ou telle chose était trop difficile ou que telle ou telle pièce était pour les filles et non pas pour les gars. Ce qui était un concept amusant que mon professeur avait à ce moment-là par rapport à certaines œuvres. Well, it motivated me even more to go work, to open the partition, to see how it was written, to put my hands in it, to listen, to discover. And then that was super important to me. And maybe she knew, Sœur Pauline, that you were doing that and it was her tactic to make you practice more.

Starting point is 01:05:33 We talked about it afterwards and then I think she recognized that in my case, it had been, that she shouldn't have forbidden me this or that. Mais en même temps, je lui disais, non, non, t'as très bien fait parce que ça donnait exactement le bon résultat. C'est formidable. Mais bon, elle est très wise. Puis ensuite, t'as poursuivi tes études à l'Université de Montréal. Oui, c'est ça. Ensuite, je suis allé à l'UDM avec Marc Durand, évidemment un grand professeur que j'admire beaucoup, qui m'a tellement appris parce que lui, il avait vraiment une vision très objective de la technique. Je n'avais pas vraiment un sens raffiné de ce qu'était la technique avant de travailler avec Marc, d'abord à Orford, ensuite à l'Université de Montréal.

Starting point is 01:06:18 Mais pour lui, c'était très simple. Il y a une solution physique à tout. On a deux mains, cinq doigts dans chaque main, si on est chanceux, et deux bras. Alors, si tel autre pianiste peut jouer une œuvre que tu trouves qui a l'air impossible avec ces mêmes outils, eh bien, si tu bouges de la bonne façon, si tu fais les bons gestes, si tu utilises les bons doigtés, tu vas être capable de le faire aussi. Parce que tout ça n'est qu'une question physique. Il n'y a pas de don de Dieu pour jouer des double tiers.

Starting point is 01:06:49 Il y a une méthode et puis on peut l'apprendre. Et puis tout ça, pour moi, c'est une révélation. Alors, j'ai appris rapidement, j'ai vraiment inhalé la technique de Marc Durand, qui était pour moi quelque chose de vraiment fascinant, qui ouvrait toutes sortes de portes. Puis comme, bon, je venais de gagner des concours, tout d'un coup, j'avais plein de concerts. Et puis, Marc m'avait fait des programmes.

Starting point is 01:07:14 Il m'avait demandé au téléphone, « Quelles sont les pièces qui te font peur? » Alors, je lui avais fait une liste des trucs que je ne voulais absolument pas jouer, comme par exemple, « Feu follet » de Liszt, qui est une étude d'exécution transcendante, terrifiante, plusieurs autres œuvres. Puis il a dit, « D'accord, ça va être ça,

Starting point is 01:07:31 ton programme de tournée. Alors, ça a été le baptême par le feu. Et puis, je suis parti en tournée avec un programme extrêmement difficile, extrêmement virtuose. Mais bon, ça m'a vraiment aidé, tout ça. Parce que j'avais découvert les façons de travailler pour apprendre du répertoire difficile. Et puis là, j'étais forcé de faire ça sur scène, à répétition, soir après soir. Donc, ça a été super important pour moi de travailler avec Marc. Puis ensuite, j'étais à Toronto, à Glen Gould School,

Starting point is 01:08:04 où je travaillais non seulement avec Marc, mais dans ce programme de artist diploma qui était assez restreint. Il y avait 7-8 élèves dedans. On avait d'autres professeurs, donc Avril Laplante, qui était un professeur marquant pour moi, John Perry,

Starting point is 01:08:20 et évidemment Leon Fleischer, qui est un grand pianiste américain, et qui venaient nous donner des classes de maître plusieurs fois par session à notre petit groupe d'élèves. Et puis, bon, tout ça était évidemment mêlant parce qu'en plus de ça, il y avait d'autres masterclasses avec Gilbert Killish, Marilyn Engel, Claude Frank. Donc, c'était étourdissant, tout simplement, d'avoir à jouer les mêmes œuvres pour tant de personnes différentes, Souvent, dans une période de temps très restreinte, dans la même semaine, il fallait jouer tel sonate de Beethoven pour Fleischer, ensuite pour Marc, ensuite pour André. Et puis, il nous disait évidemment des choses contradictoires, parce que les professeurs se contradisent tout le temps, même s'ils s'entendent autour d'un verre de vin. Et puis, tout ça, c'était très mêlant, parce que je suis sorti de là, puis bon, j'avais des moyens, évidemment.

Starting point is 01:09:12 Je faisais des concours, puis ça allait très bien, mais j'étais quand même mêlé en termes de « qu'est-ce que je veux faire, moi? » Parce que si j'ouvrais une partition, c'était comme « bon, je sais ce que Fleischer me dirait de faire ici, je sais ce que Marc voudrait, je sais ce qu'André voudrait, mais moi, qu'est-ce que je veux faire? » Parce que là, tout d'un coup, je suis tout seul, puis il faut que je choisisse. Et puis, c'est pour ça que quand, ensuite, j'étais à Juilliard avec Jerome Lowenthal, qui est un homme extraordinaire que j'avais rencontré à Music Academy of the West, à Santa Barbara, en Californie, avec lui, c'était très simple. Il avait beaucoup moins de concepts déjà établis ou préétablis, beaucoup moins de préjugés par rapport à chaque œuvre, disons, ou d'idées fixes par rapport à la façon dont telle ou telle œuvre devait être jouée. Pour lui, tout ce qui compte, c'était d'être convaincu par l'interprétation. So it often happened to me in front of him to play in a convenient way, so to play a little like I knew that Fleischer would prefer me to play, or to play as I knew that Marc would like me to play. But all that, it didn't do him any good because he felt that it wasn't authentically me.

Starting point is 01:10:32 Et puis donc, il n'était pas convaincu. Alors, à toutes les fois que ça arrivait, même si c'était pendant seulement deux mesures, il m'arrête et puis il me disait, pourquoi est-ce que j'écoute ça? Pourquoi est-ce que j'aurais, pourquoi est-ce que quiconque devrait t'écouter jouer comme ça? Tu ne penses pas qu'il y a assez d'enregistrements extraordinaires de cette oeuvre-là pour qu'on entende ta formule rigurgitée ici? Je veux que ce soit authentique, je veux que ce soit convaincant. Amène-moi du vrai David Jalbert. Et puis ça pour moi, ça a été le point tournant. À partir de ce moment-là, je pense que je suis devenu un pianiste. Et puis bon, c'est à partir de ce moment-là que j'ai commencé à enregistrer. Alors, heureusement, il y a très peu de documents de la période prédatant mes études à Julliard avec M. Lowenthal. C'est génial. J'adore ça de voir comment étudier avec M. Lowenthal a vraiment permis d'amener ensemble tous les éléments précurseurs, tous les éléments que tu as acquis avec les autres professeurs.

Starting point is 01:11:35 Et puis là, tu t'es vraiment trouvé à travers l'enseignement de M. Lowenthal. Je trouve qu'il y a tellement de choses à apprendre en écoutant ton histoire, en pensant, comme j'ai dit en anglais un petit peu plus tôt, en pensant à l'environnement qui a entouré tout ça, les choses auxquelles tu as été exposé, à quel point ça a été marquant dans ta progression. Vraiment très, très intéressant. Alors, on discutait plus tôt de la pratique et puis tu parlais de comment pour toi ça commence avec une idée très claire. Alors, quand tu essaies d'apprendre une œuvre, comment ça commence avec établir une idée très claire de ce que tu veux musicalement? Et aussi, on a parlé de l'importance de la confiance. Moi, je serais curieuse maintenant de savoir, ça ressemble à quoi une session de pratique idéale pour toi? First of all, it would be to have time to practice in a relaxed way, because as I teach full-time, my practice is often a bit regimented, but I love being able to practice when I want to

Starting point is 01:12:38 practice and when I don't need to count the minutes. First of all, I think it's so important to be in the right mental space, because obviously we practice often when it's not the case, puis c'est quand même important, il faut, on n'a pas le choix, mais quelle différence ça fait? Quand on s'assoit pour pratiquer et qu'on se sent inspiré, qu'on a envie de jouer du piano, je trouve toujours que c'est à ces moments-là qu'on fait des découvertes, qu'on a des breakthroughs, comme on dit en anglais, où vraiment ça débouche. Donc ça, c'est la précondition d'une pratique idéale, je dirais. Et puis, ensuite, c'est de ne pas être, justement, j'utilise beaucoup de négatifs, mais d'avoir vraiment le temps d'explorer l'œuvre, de faire, de creuser à travers la musique, à travers les phrases, pour essayer de trouver le sens qu'elles ont.

Starting point is 01:13:36 Évidemment, je parle d'une pratique vraiment idéale. Je ne sais pas si c'est ce que tu recherches ou si tu me demandes davantage. Quel genre de pratique idéale en termes d'efficacité? C'est sûr que si j'essaie d'être efficace, je m'assois avec un objectif. Donc, je veux pratiquer tel mouvement de telle pièce. J'ai un certain nombre de minutes, idéalement d'heures. Mes objectifs pour cette session sont les suivants. Ça, c'est terriblement important pour moi de toujours avoir un plan et de ne pas m'asseoir au piano sans avoir une idée claire de ce que je veux accomplir. Je veux me relever du banc de piano dans une heure et puis être passé au travers de ces deux mouvements pour commencer à solidifier la mémoire. Je veux être capable de jouer tel passage, c'est le temps que je le joue sans me tromper, que je le mémorise. Ça peut être ce genre de plan-là, mais je vais toujours avoir un plan. It can often be, if I approach the date of a concert, it will often be to chain works, concert version.

Starting point is 01:14:48 What I never do in the cold, in fact, I will always revise the piece first with the score, go through, often a little slower or with a little more attention. Then I close the score, I continue by heart, and then I go through the whole work, paying special attention to the things that did not work to my liking. Usually there are many. So these are different types of practices. So the type of practice where we try to learn something, and then the type of practice where a work is acquired and already has a level of performance that we use,

Starting point is 01:15:28 we try to go further or to solidify more. In these cases, I always have the tripartite method that I have just described, so to go through the work slowly with the partition, by revising, by warming up the passages, then a heart-to-heart sequence, maybe recorded on the phone or on an application, and then revise, re-listen and go through travers de tout ça, retravailler les passages qui ont moins bien fonctionné, s'assurer que, bon, on sort de la session de pratique avec plus de confiance, justement, avec l'impression d'avoir appris, d'avoir acquis quelque chose. Cette impression-là, pour moi, c'est très important parce que sinon, je suis très malheureux. Si je n'ai pas atteint mes objectifs de pratique, non,

Starting point is 01:16:17 mais vraiment, je vais refouler. Je n'ai pas l'impression que ma vie va nulle part. Je vais je vais être de très mauvaise humeur. Et puis bon, mettons que je fais du lavage après, je vais chialer et je vais dire que j'ai l'impression d'avoir accompli davantage en faisant mon lavage qu'en pratiquant. Parce qu'au moins, j'ai un résultat concret. C'est pour ça qu'il faut se garder satisfait

Starting point is 01:16:42 de sa pratique aussi, parce que c'est très facile de tomber dans une sorte de tourbillon de négativité quand ça ne va pas à notre goût. Et puis la façon de contrôler ça, c'est d'être organisé, d'avoir un plan, de l'accomplir. Et déjà là, on va se sentir mieux. Et puis, quand on se sent mieux, on acquiert de la confiance.

Starting point is 01:17:01 Et puis là, on peut avoir un cercle, non pas vicieux, mais le contraire, qui construit vraiment la performance, la confiance. Quand on prépare des projets, c'est super important, évidemment. Oui, et ça, c'est tellement important, ce que tu dis. On a discuté de mémorisation aussi en anglais, puis c'était vraiment fascinant pour moi d'en apprendre un peu plus sur ton processus de mémorisation. Peux-tu reviser ça pour nous un petit peu, pour ceux qui n'ont pas eu la chance d'entendre la discussion en anglais? Comment tu décortiquerais ton processus de mémorisation, partant peut-être de l'apprentissage et en allant jusqu'à la finition? L'apprentissage commence pas au clavier, comme je l'ai dit dans la partie anglaise de l'entrevue.

Starting point is 01:17:48 je commence en fait à mémoriser une oeuvre avant même de m'asseoir au piano parce que je vais l'avoir analysée, je vais l'avoir écoutée dans plusieurs versions autant que possible avec la partition, toujours en essayant de comprendre exactement la structure de l'oeuvre, la structure formelle, la structure harmonique. Quelles sont les phrases? Parce que souvent dans des oeuvres plus complexes, ce n'est même pas évident de savoir où commence telle phrase, or finish such a sentence, to have all these things in our head before putting our hands in the work, on the piano. It is already part of the memorization that is accomplished. It is a key element to know, to understand the piece. From that, we can memorize. From that, we can say

Starting point is 01:18:34 okay, this section is a section in the work and I will memorize this section. Then the next section. But if we don't know where the sections start or end, it's already a big problems, we have several lengths of delay. So it starts with the score, but not on the keyboard. When I get on the keyboard, after, as I said, two or three readings of the piece, so I'm going to go through the whole work, just to find out how it's written, to put my fingers on it, to make sure that technically I'm going to know how to navigate this or that passage, Immediately, I think about the memorization. I try to notice the contrasts.

Starting point is 01:19:17 If a passage comes back, for example, often in sonata forms, in the re-exposition, for example, we will have something that is relatively similar to what we had at the beginning of the movement, but which will modulate in such a place. So I immediately notice where the pivot point is, how the harmony differs when the passage is repeated. So I try to observe all this and to create small notes mentally that make me notice as many aspects as possible of the score, of the work. And then all of this is part of the memorization. Then, after three or four practices of the piece,

Starting point is 01:20:03 I will immediately begin to test my memorization. Je vais essayer de tourner à la troisième page, puis j'essaie de me rendre à la troisième page par cœur. Et puis là, on voit qu'est-ce qui marche, qu'est-ce qui ne marche pas. On se rend compte que, ah, tiens donc, je pensais que j'étais capable de jouer la première phrase, mais j'oublie tel accord dans la main gauche. Alors là, on est obligé de retourner la page et d'aller voir. Et puis là, de chercher tel accord en particulier, de le visualiser, ça nous fait l'apprendre. Ensuite, on retourne la page, on reste le jeu par cœur, et là, on est capable, on essaie d'aller plus loin.

Starting point is 01:20:34 Et puis, à tantons comme ça, j'avance et puis assez rapidement, je trouve que je peux mémoriser à peu près n'importe quoi, justement par essais et erreurs et puis en ayant toujours le radar analytique très, très allumé. Je pense que c'est comme ça que je fonctionne en fait. Ça, c'est excellent. Il va falloir que j'écrive tout ça et que j'en fasse une affiche pour mettre dans mon studio pour que mes élèves puissent en apprendre. Moi aussi, en fait. David, s'il y a une idée ou un concept que tu espères tes élèves vont vraiment garder avec eux pour le restant de leurs jours, une fois qu'ils ont terminé leurs études avec toi, qu'est-ce que ça serait? Ah, very good question. I hope they will have an approach that is always musical. And at the same time, well, it's holistic. And when I say musical, I include in there the respect for the style of the composer, the respect for the rhythm, the sense of the sound. Parce qu'au piano, évidemment, la production du son, c'est très important. Ça a beaucoup à voir avec la technique, avec la chorégraphie, qui elle-même est intégrée aux aspects rythmiques de l'œuvre.

Starting point is 01:21:58 Donc, peut-être que la seule chose que je veux qu'ils retiennent, c'est cette approche holistique où la technique, la musique et le rythme sont interconnectés, inséparables. Quelle belle réponse, ça! Ouf! David, you're not only an extraordinary musician, but you're also a formidable person. I think everyone can hear it. And it was an honor for me to have you on the show.

Starting point is 01:22:24 A big thank you for taking the time to talk to me today. A big thank you to you, René-Paul.

The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 020 David Jalbert: Learning, Memorizing, & Finding Your Authentic Artistic Voice

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