The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 025 Jean-François Rivest: The Incredible Artistic Powers of Passion & Imagination

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to the Mind Over Finger Podcast, episode number 25. Welcome to the Mind Over Finger Podcast, discussions on mindful music making, efficient practice, and building a purposeful career. And now, your host, Dr. Renée Paul Gaultier. Hi everyone, I hope you're doing great. Last week I spoke with percussionist Cameron Leach. We discussed his approach to practicing and his philosophy about communicating with the audience during a performance and the ways he tries to establish a real rapport with his listeners, starting in the practice room and following through on stage. Now I'm really excited about

Starting point is 00:00:53 today's episode and I think it's a particularly inspiring one. So as you listen, grab and share a screenshot to let me know you're listening and spread the word. As I said last week, this is the first of a series of three very special episodes. As a performer and a teacher, I constantly feel the presence and the influence of the musicians that have helped shape me as an artist with their knowledge, wisdom, skills, and with their examples. And there are too many to interview them all, But there are three that I consider as the main pedagogical influences in my life, and you will get to meet them in the coming weeks. I begin today with Canadian violinist, teacher, and conductor Jean-François Rivet, who was my teacher from the age of nine when I began conservatory, all the way to the age of 20 when I graduated from the University of Montreal. Jean-François is a very active conductor in the province of Quebec,

Starting point is 00:01:53 and he's renowned for his energy, his precise technique, and his style, which is described as passionate, moving, and deeply involved. He served as music director for several ensembles and orchestras in Canada, and his discography includes a large variety of musical genres, ranging from the Baroque era up to today. Jean-François is also an esteemed pedagogue, and he's been teaching both violin and conducting at the University of Montreal since 1993. He was trained at the Montreal Conservatory and the Juilliard School.

Starting point is 00:02:27 And before starting his teaching and conducting career, he quickly established himself as one of the foremost Quebec violinists. As you'll see in our conversation, Jean-François believes that the many facets of nature and all aspects of life are a vital source of artistic inspiration. And that's something that hugely impacted me as a child and a young musician. As a student of Ivan Galamian and Dorothy DeLay, and being a fantastic violinist himself, he gave me excellent instruction in violin playing and music making with an incredible

Starting point is 00:03:02 dedication and without counting the hours. But he gave me way more than that. He was and still is a wise mentor and a father figure. and he taught me to be aware of everything around me, to go deeper and to see life as a great gift and a wonderful adventure. Jean-François and I have an amazing conversation about learning to listen to ourselves, paying attention, nurturing our imagination, live passionately and broadening our horizons as humans and musicians. I'm failing at expressing how very special this episode is to me, but I know that you will find it extremely inspiring. And as for my previous French-speaking

Starting point is 00:03:49 guests, there is a little bonus for my French-speaking listeners at the end. Alors si votre langage est le français, restez des nôtres. Let's go to the show. Jean-François Rivet, I'm so incredibly happy to have you on the show today. Well, same here. I'm very happy to be here. Jean-François, you are without a doubt the most influential musical presence in my life. As I said in the intro, I started studying with you at the age of nine years old. And I continued to study with you until I graduated from my undergrad. And I can say that it's with you that the foundations of everything I am as a musician

Starting point is 00:04:37 and teacher and artist was established. So it's really wonderful to have you here today. And Jean-Francois, before we talk about music and music making, I really want my listeners to get to know you a little bit because you have such a remarkable journey. I had a great conversation with violinist Tessa Lark a few weeks ago, and she said something that really made me think of you. She was quoting a teacher of hers who gave her the advice to be interested, not interesting. And I think that it encapsulates, well, one of the many reasons why you are one of the most interesting people in my life. And it's I think that you are truly interested in everything.

Starting point is 00:05:23 And I was, and I still am, amazed at how passionate you are about learning everything you can about everything, whether it's music or food or history, art, literature, or a hobby of any kind. When you become interested in something, you dig deeper than anyone I know. And I don't even know when you find the time to sleep, but it's like you live five lives while the rest of us are trying to make the best out of one. But you've done so many amazing things and I think we can all learn and be inspired by your life. So can you please tell us about you and your musical journey and how you got to where you are and how this incredible artistic path of yours has unfolded?

Starting point is 00:06:11 well after such an introduction so almost hard to say anything thank you well you know i think that we are all what and who we are so in a way we don't look at or see ourselves from inside the way you just described we just try to do the best we can but i think that the key is for sure uh open-mindedness and curiosity that's for sure and um maybe we can talk about that later because it's really very very important in the whole topic of your podcast which is fabulous by the way congrats for the the great show you're doing um just a brief if you want me to say so a brief history of what i've done uh i've started out like a normal gifted young violinist and i studied piano also as well for a few years until at the age of 11 i my father

Starting point is 00:07:13 said decide one instrument please so i concentrated on the violin well i had some uh forgotten years adolescent years where i played the electric guitar in some groups and i and i composed some progressive rock and all sorts of other things but i think i kept practicing i don't remember but i think i did keep practicing and having my my normal violinist life and then perhaps age 15 i really concentrated and so i i finished uh the only thing that's perhaps not standard is that at the end of that period let's say age 16 17 i was very interested by composition a few counterpoint harmony and all that so i did study more than the average violinist all those um all those things that make one musician's mind a bit more let's say constructed perhaps and then i i

Starting point is 00:08:13 left to juilliard and i did my bachelor's in one year and my master's in one year so i stayed only two years in new york with dorothea delay in the previous years i went to meadowmount you know the violinist camp in northern new york state and i studied with mr galamian all these summers uh i i was there age 11 the first summer you know you your podcast about practicing well when you're age 11 and you have nine weeks in a foreign language and you have to practice five friggin hours you don't know what to do you know so that came later but anyways so after that i came back from juliard and i was fortunate to win the audition for the first violins in the montreal symphony so at age 20 i was in in the violinists of the first violins of the montreal

Starting point is 00:09:06 symphony while doing some solo and some chamber music some ensembles and i started teaching at mcgill and and after five years of that i took my retirement age 25 and because i i was certainly not made to be in the bottom of a violin section in an orchestra. I don't say that like if it's bad. I think everybody has his or her own aspirations. One of mine is, most importantly, to take the responsibility of the whole picture of the music. So that's why I decided to do something else.

Starting point is 00:09:45 For a while, I went to a city that many of your listeners might not know of, which is about 300 miles north of Montreal in the real winter here in Chicoutimi and that's where I met you because I had a great violin class there in the conservatory with fantastic gifted young pupils among which you are certainly one of the best I ever had and we had some a great time together and I had a great time in Chicoutimi I met my wife I stayed there for seven years and I really it was a great great part of my life and for the benefit of your listeners why to do that because it's very rare that an artist goes to a smaller place let's say perhaps more in europe but here in america you don't do that but for me i'm a very uh i'm very attracted by nature and all its

Starting point is 00:10:38 manifestations including activities outdoor activities so i really after all all these years in big cities, including the Big Apple, I needed to get away from the cities. So that's why I accepted that post in the conservatory of this small town, Chicoutibi, and it's so beautiful, the nature is so wonderful. And that will lead me later to answer other of your questions about the violin and practicing and all that, but I think that it's part of this. One has to grow and enrich parts of him or herself that are not specifically related to music sometimes to become a better musician.

Starting point is 00:11:20 So let's say that was a big parenthesis in my professional life. And then I came back to Montreal as a teacher at the University of Montreal and I started conducting. And since, let's say, almost 20 years now, I've been a conductor and I almost quit. No, I did totally quit playing the violin,

Starting point is 00:11:39 which is a pity, but one cannot do everything at once. So that's why now I am a conductor and I'm in the middle of a production of Così fan tutte and I've been conducting, you know, for the last many years, actually. That's my main activity and I teach conducting now as well. That's an incredible journey. Quite varied, for sure. Yes, and, you know, I'm really glad that you mentioned

Starting point is 00:12:06 that you did this unusual move of leaving the big city and the big position to go back to maybe a more centered way of living because what you said and I think you used the words grow and enrich part of ourselves is something that we neglect so much and it's so important in our development so thank you for mentioning all these things and I hope you write a book about your life at some point because as you were growing going through your story i i had all of these anecdotes about all of the million other things that you do outside of the you know small skeleton you just gave us and it's it's really incredible so well thank you but you know it's it's everybody has a bunch of aspirations and dreams and one has to live some of them of course it's impossible to

Starting point is 00:13:04 live them all and i hope everybody has way too many but we have to have a few that we do finally take the appropriate actions to live them so to of course to to quit a job in the big symphony and a big university and just go for half the salary to a smaller town is a big move it was the one i did some other people do some other moves but one has to pursue at least some of their dreams and uh that's i think that that's you know life is is could be just the next day and the next job and the next day and the next job and that's really not enriching very much so i think that that's why this is important the other thing that i want to mention is that everybody who is perhaps listening to this wants to be a better musician but unfortunately the

Starting point is 00:13:59 only way to become a better musician is to become a better person and to live better things and to enrich ourselves with with our own content our own life and being a conductor i kind of realized that even more than a violinist as a violinist because as a violinist you still have that playground of the instrument you can learn the instrument but the instrument is like you know if you learn how to use the shovel but there's no snow there's no point having a shovel the instrument is a tool what you have to say is the real thing and what you have to say comes from who you are and the dancer the actor and the conductor is the same have no instrument i think the singer and the dancer are the one that are most exposed that's

Starting point is 00:14:54 why they're so emotional and sensitive and all that. But as a conductor, it's even worse. You don't make even a sound. So you let other people play, and you just guide them where the global idea that you're proposing, you propose the idea to the musicians. But I really think that growing as a musician is growing as a person. So therefore, you have to do things.

Starting point is 00:15:22 Jean-Francois, this is really great. And, you know, one of the biggest gifts you gave me as my teacher and guide and mentor is teaching me how to pay attention and listen. And that taught me so much. And you always encourage this in us, your students, to pay attention to our environment and observe the colors and the sounds and the beauty and to develop curiosity and the true sense of wonder for everything that surrounds us. And in my case, I was really a child with a vivid imagination. And I felt a real encouragement from you to explore this imagination and this creativity and see it as something that could really bring so much to my life. And it was the same for everything related to music. I mean, you are, as you mentioned, interested in all genres and all styles. And you always encourage me and all of your students to listen to everything and expand our musical horizons. And in the Violin Studio, you spent a lot of time guiding me in listening.

Starting point is 00:16:27 And this was from the very beginning. You didn't wait until I was older or more mature from the start, really listening to the sound I was producing and not stop at that and go deeper. and listen to the sound qualities how it resonates and the different colors and pay attention to harmonic intonation and listen how I you know that I remember this so vividly listen how a double stop rolls when it's really in tune so I want to talk about this to you today because I see many students struggle and not really possess the skill to sensitively listen to themselves and that really slows down their progress. And I think that the ability to listen is the number one catalyst in the practice room and knowing how to listen guides and can potentially change

Starting point is 00:17:23 everything. Like I just said, it's truly a gift that you gave me and all of your students because it really opened my eyes to the importance of paying attention, listen, explore, and continue to always learn and grow and so i want us to talk about this today and how to develop an ability to listen better and nurture curiosity and sensitivity in both our practicing and performing so can you please unpack this for us a little bit okay sure sure it's it's a complex topic because in a way let's make it very clear that we could we could even end there what we don't see what we don't see we don't see or what we don't know we don't know so there's no way to see what you don't see if you don't use some appropriate glasses tools or whatever so in a way i think that in

Starting point is 00:18:20 order to listen as you say or hear better or be more sensitive well that's a very dangerous topic you cannot say to someone be more sensitive it's like saying to someone love me you know You can't do that. And that's the problem. But by nature, people are sensitive. Sometimes it's hidden a bit deeper, but people are, human people are sensitive. Actually, usually much more than they look like. But the problem is not the sensitivity.

Starting point is 00:18:52 The problem is how to tune the radars, where to look with your sensitivity. I will use an analogy one could walk in the forest and see nothing and if you go with someone who really knows the birds and the plants and show you look at that edible and look at this flower it does this

Starting point is 00:19:13 and be careful this mushroom is toxic and all that then the next day you go back to the same forest and you don't look at it the same way because you know some of its inhabitants well I think it's the same thing in the music Music can come into one of your ears and get out the other way, through your head, without you noticing much.

Starting point is 00:19:35 And if you open your eyes, I mean your musical eyes, to how the music is made, constructed, of what elements it's made of, and all its different components, then you start looking at it with more details. You start having a more detailed perception. then you can start using your sensitivity so in a way to develop one's sensitivity means to develop one on deep understanding of music that's why i believe that all aspiring young talented musicians should really undergo a very high level training of well what you call in the states ear training which is wrong it's not the ear is just a shovel again it's the tool it's the inner ear training and well allow me a parenthesis here i will say something that i really believe that some people

Starting point is 00:20:33 find a bit shocking but i think that music is not the art of sounds i think music starts within one's inner musical imagination and is directed towards your listener's inner musical imagination. Then you need a transporter in between, and that's physical waves of sound that go from one instrument to the ears of the other listener. But fundamentally, it's just too bad. No, it's not too bad. It's nice.

Starting point is 00:21:08 But it's a tool. We need the music that we make with our instrument is a tool to convey, to transport that imagination into the other person's imagination. And in a way, we as interpreter are kind of a pipe or a kind of a passer. You know, we put the imagination of the composer on our shoulders. We try to imagine what he wants. in a way people normal people in the hall cannot read the music and hear it in their heads like we do because we train for that it's a big training so if we don't play the music well people won't hear it so we have to play it so we use our own imagination to understand what the composer's

Starting point is 00:21:57 imagination was trying to do we rebuild it our own way so that has a color which is our interpretation and then we play it for the people who hear it and it goes again back into the realm of imagination in their own heads their own soul perhaps whatever and and in a way music is from one imagination to another one so that's that's if one understands that perhaps one will less try to to practice and to to play music like if it's an aesthetic or physical or plastic thing but it's much more a spiritual and and psychological message it's an imaginary message so to go back to your initial question in order to develop that sensitivity one has to develop one's imagination that's period that's the most important thing you as a child you you said it rightly you were

Starting point is 00:22:59 a child with a fantastic imagination and you were very gifted very young so that helps but that imagination is is something that some people have more readily fortunately that can be developed the talent itself the the talent for uh hearing it can be tuned but it cannot be I mean, it cannot come from nothing, that's for sure. A lot of people have more talent than they think, but if you're not a sensitive person, you will not become a more sensitive person years later. So I think that one of the very important things

Starting point is 00:23:38 is that children should be exposed to the beauty of art, music, literature, and whatever, very early in their young age. and then it starts right away to make their sensitivity bloom and start to be in action, let's say. Sensitivity is always there, but it has to start to work for them. So then, how to build that sense of imagination? I think that, I go back to my example of walking in the forest. You need to have people who tell you where to look.

Starting point is 00:24:16 so in that in that respect in music it's called studying harmony studying counterpoint studying history of music no not studying really grasping it so reading about Mozart's life is one thing but really trying to be there and feel what he was was feeling when he was writing let's say whatever uh whatever is your favorite moment of mozart's life you know but trying to grasp the different moments of historical moments of composers lives or how the music is made study of analysis not analysis like a science to to show that the pieces are made of so many parts that's scientific analysis of course we need to do that as well but it's just a tool but analysis that makes us really dig deep into the music

Starting point is 00:25:12 so that we understand how it's really made so that we can ourselves recreate it as an interpreter. Because as a player and as an interpreter, our job is to recompose the music. We have to really understand it very well. Then I was saying harmony and counterpoint. I'm talking about really advanced, not that kind of ear training with a bit of this and a bit of that,

Starting point is 00:25:37 and after a couple of years, you're through, and oof, I've done it. No, no, no. I mean a whole life of always doing more and more and more so you can listen and really understand what you're listening and seeing those different birds and plants that make this jungle that the music is so you can really see what it is. Then your imagination can start to work for you when you see more through this big, incredibly complex cloud

Starting point is 00:26:06 that a piece of music is, be it a Brahms sonata or a Mahler symphony. It's the problem are different, but they're the same in a way. I don't even know where to start. There's so many incredible things in what you said. And I love what you said about how to tune the radar. And it's so true that we need a guide often to learn how to tune this radar. I love this analogy of walking through the forest and not seeing anything. And it's true, you know, you can't see what you don't see. And I think that's, that's what you did with us as students is that I would have never known what harmonic intonation was if you had not spent that time in the lesson to really make me explore and try things and, you know, try this note with this note and move your finger just a little bit.

Starting point is 00:26:57 and oh do you hear how how this resonates how it rolls and you know I think that with this came your incredible enthusiasm you know it makes you feel as a student that you are really uh being let in on a wonderful secret and and you know and I think that's nice it's true it's like but it's a great place to start where I think for us to teacher to really take the time to show we're we're so quick at wanting to show them techniques but to really show them how to spend the time in listening and exploring and and look at the birds and look at the trees and all the different leaves i have one thing though that is very important to say right now because in our modern world of running around at light speed always one of the real problem of musical

Starting point is 00:27:49 learning and teaching is not enough time if you remember well you of course you do we did spend a number of hours that is way beyond the one hour per week that many lessons that people get yes you came to my house and we did some walks in the forest we did some and we did so many other things i mean my students i used to take them for more than one hour a week and it's it's the way i was brought by my own teacher also several several lessons a week sometimes so in a way we the problem is that we do have to teach or learn that technique as well it's totally irrelevant to try to be poetic and imaginative and if we don't have the fingers to to do it we have to be able to to do it with our playing what our imagination wants to do and that means unfortunately really learning

Starting point is 00:28:45 a good technique so the time that's necessary is both the time to teach and learn a great technique to teach and learn all the necessary etudes and repertoire and all that and on top of that having enough time to develop that imagination and that culture that i'm talking about so some people might find it with very there are various ways to do that some people might learn the technique from their instrumental teacher and get all those other musical dimensions from other mentors or or i don't know harmony teachers or composers or even some other musicians fellow colleagues sometimes sometimes we learn more from doing a sonata with a friend pianist than having a lesson you know but anyways we have to find a way to to spend enough time to both

Starting point is 00:29:41 learn a very solid technique and have enough time and mental space for imagination this is so great and you know i'm curious in your case i'm sure it's a mix of both but do you think that this curiosity and this thirst for knowing more that you have is it something that is mostly a personality trait or is it something that was maybe ignited by someone else maybe a teacher or family okay that's a big question because now we're going even backwards to the nature of each person of course humanity as a whole and humans as beings are fundamentally curious and i think that's one of the traits of human intelligence and that's why we have started out from being molecules and we're now weighing weighing these molecules and and and exploring galaxies and

Starting point is 00:30:42 writing cantatas and you know we've evolved pretty far from where we started although it's not finished and we have some problems but as an individual there is quite a big variation between each people let's say ability to to be curious or perhaps mental space because one of the fundamental aspect of let's say human trait that one needs is to be calm enough or to be confident enough in life to have space to be curious to have space to be amazed by beautiful things and all that and unfortunately some people are so stressed out by life that they don't have enough mental room or or emotional space that's probably the most important one a place where you can just be in a sensitive state to learn things to admire things to to imagine things as we said

Starting point is 00:31:43 before but that requires that you're kind of confident and that comes from own personalities and from upbringings and surroundings and, of course, family situations and all that. But let's say that the situation is the best possible and the kids are happy and doing what they like, which is not always the case, even for a very gifted person. I think that our school system is really not adapted to everybody. I'm talking about general school, not musical. But normal, you know, primary and elementary and high school, it's really difficult for a lot of kids to go through that and feel that they're happy with the way they're learning.

Starting point is 00:32:31 Because it's made for a certain, you know, very straight kind of type of one way of learning. We're really far backwards, I think, in our system of education. But anyways, that means that some kids don't have that room for time. But to go back to your question, if we do have enough room and enough time, well, that's where we can be really curious and develop. So it can be something that is very different from one person to another. Yes. And people can be curious but might not have the drive to pursue their curiosity further because, I don't know, because I would not say because why. There's so many reasons, but it's different from one person to another.

Starting point is 00:33:21 Perhaps, just to finish, perhaps, yes, the help of some guidance in the family or in the teaching surroundings can help somebody to center and feed one's creativity and curiosity. You know, it can be the case that somebody is in a state that he or she doesn't have the ability or emotional space to pursue that curiosity. And a mentor, a parent, a brother or a great friend or a lover, whatever, could help trigger to be more curious or to go further and to pursue one's curiosity. Life is very complex sometimes. That's so true. and you're someone who doesn't only dig deep in your musical endeavors but in everything your hobbies your interests and you hiked across the baffin territories for a few months and you're now a pilot then you sell boats for months and you know everything about food and fractiles if

Starting point is 00:34:27 that's a word in english and it is the lord of the ring and you and like you said you love you love nature and like i said earlier you are interested and i think that being interested can really expand who we are as musicians and artists and i don't know the complexity of human beings just the way you put it is what makes the tapestry so much more interesting when it comes to making art yeah but let's say okay that being said let's try to be a bit more practical because it's very nice everything that I just said fine but it looks very big and in a way if one wants to start from somewhere I think that every gesture counts so if I say for example that what feeds our imagination is culture let's start with that and culture is knowing some of the

Starting point is 00:35:24 history of mankind is reading some literature is some knowing more about our repertoire i mean general repertoire another one of only our instrument is knowing about the other forms of art and all that well that means that every book that one reads is going to help to be a better musician one day every every cd that one listens to well that shows my age cds it's an old thing um but every piece of music and i hope in concert is even better because one of the really bad things about our kids now is that they don't go to concerts anymore and uh the only reason we do music is to play concerts for other people but anyways everything that one can do to be more cultured is is good it's all good so it one does need to look at the

Starting point is 00:36:21 entirety of literature and say well i need to read all balzac otherwise i haven't read anything that's 40 volumes you know or i have to to know all you know all beethoven well start with the first quartet and the first sonata and the first symphony and then perhaps later you get more you know but one one thing at a time i think but the goal is to to have more culture because that's the background that will help our imagination it's so true and you know what you just said i think it's it's a big thing every gesture counts and that works in both this macro context that you just described as it's true every gesture shapes who we are and if i if i take it you know down to a more down to earth or a more micro perspective it's the same in music making it's

Starting point is 00:37:13 the same in in violin playing because one of the thing i talk about with students is sound there's no such thing as performance or practice sound you're just creating sound and with every bow stroke you have the potential to make sure it's beautiful and you're building proper technique or you can not pay any attention to it and you know maybe create some bad habits so i i love that this concept can be taken in both perspective there's no reason to play music or practice if we're not digging and enjoying and sensitive to every fraction of a second why why playing if it's just for the action mechanical action of playing you know we know that a lot of people feel that they have to practice so therefore some some people even put turn on the tv and just play scales

Starting point is 00:38:08 i mean every fraction of a second of playing should be made with our whole heart even in stupid scales it's not stupid actually and that's perhaps let's have a little discussion on that topic if you want because one of the things that i hope and i feel that i was trying to communicate and to share with my students and you in particular and is one thing that it took me many years to understand that's what i got from mr galamin and from madame yelinkova my teacher in montreal it's an the intense relationship between the need of the ear and the need of the technique it's very easy to say like that let me let me give an example we both we all know that in violin the secret of the violin playing is bow distribution and that means that when

Starting point is 00:39:05 and why do we need to save the bow here or to move the bow there what's what's the reason it is always an inner musical reason you have to save the bow because you have to have more space for tension after you have to loosen your arm because the note is looser because the music moves because the sound wants to ring in another way but that that relationship between the actual muscle memory of save the bow and move the bow and i say it because i really think that those two words are the most important words of the violin playing and if you remember our first lessons in my kitchen when you were nine years old on the acolyte concerto it start with that the first note is save the bow and then move yes well these this is this is the the most important

Starting point is 00:39:56 is the relationship between all these bow playing technical aspects and how we hear what we want to hear. So I believe that practicing is an action of trying to make our muscles and our instrument do what our inner ear is trying to show us or what we hear in our heads. So again, I go back to that. If we don't hear well in our head, we will not be able to play it well. So even the young musician has to do a lot of solfège and musical dictation and harmony

Starting point is 00:40:35 in order to be able to hear so well in one's ear that his or her muscles will try to do it on the violin or whatever instrument. I would like to share a very special, how can I say, really something very special once that I want to share with your listeners. Being a conductor means that you don't play anymore and you listen in your head all the time. That's the only activity that you do as a conductor. 98% of the time is alone in your studio in front of your score, trying to listen and listen so hard in your head

Starting point is 00:41:14 that when you get to that two percent of the time of conductor in front of the actual orchestra because it's two or three rehearsals we know that so it goes very fast you have such an image mental image in your head that in a way your body communicates it some way or another and people somewhere or another have no choice to follow you in that direction well i used to do a lot of hiking a lot of hiking when i say a lot means all the way to the north pole and um when i did that hiking i used to walk by myself a lot and to help walk sometimes i don't know 30 35 miles in a day with a backpack i used to use a um a way to help myself on my on my walking which was to sing myself in my head some mantras like you know the good old ohm that we all know

Starting point is 00:42:10 and i used to like to hear like if it was a buddhist monk's chorus in my head that was singing those mantras and you know the repetitiveness of it helped me walk for miles and miles and miles okay fine then i started to be much more busy as a quite new conductor and it was my first time conducting all Brahms symphonies and all Schumann symphonies and name it. You know, a lot of learning and a lot. I mean, I had played all these, but it's not the same thing to take charge of everything.

Starting point is 00:42:44 So I studied a lot. I listened a lot in my head. For a few years, I didn't do much hiking because I was too busy. Then one day, my old hiking friend, Patrick, said, hey, let's go to the Adirondacks to do one big mountain. Okay, fine. We go back in winter and we do a big hike.

Starting point is 00:43:00 and after several years let's say three or four of not doing any and doing a lot of conducting i went to that hiking and just as a habit i started singing in my head my good old buddhist monk choir mantras again and then i almost fell on my butt because i was hearing a different chorus in my head with much much more detailed harmonic interaction like if there were a whole spectrum of resonance and colors and and like oh you know resonances and and harmonic rainbow of colors that I was not aware of before now you hear me well the only difference was in my head a few years ago and in my head that second time it it was purely and my imagination had grown and I didn't know I just

Starting point is 00:43:59 you know I just saw it as a as a surprise and it that taught me a lot because it taught me that if one works on how one listens in one one's head then you can enhance one's inner ear without even noticing it i didn't know that i was hearing better in my head and i had a good ear before and i trained a lot but that was even more you know so that that taught me that it was a big surprise and it was a really good surprise that one can really go deeper how you hear the detail of this yes the sound as you say and if if you can imagine the sound with such a vivid detail Then when you try to do it with your own bow, you're going to do it better for sure. So again, we go back to imagination.

Starting point is 00:44:54 So the first thing I said was to tune and to enhance the radars so we can hear better outside. But then I'm talking about the inner imagination of sound now. So those are two different dimensions. Jean-Francois, this was so great. Thank you so much for sharing. I wish we could keep going for the rest of the day. I can't wait for the next time we'll get to do this in person. Hope to visit Quebec soon again.

Starting point is 00:45:21 But time flies. So how about a round of rapid fire questions before we switch to French? Sure. And I say rapid fire, but they're never really rapid. So, you know, for the people who are dreaming of a career that resemble yours, you know, it's fascinating because you've had so many careers. But just tell us a little bit about what your life looks like, because I always love hearing about what your life looks like. Oh, well, it's different from a chunk of a couple of years to another chunk of a couple of years. Now, I am 60 years old and I have been teaching at Université de Montréal for 27 years now.

Starting point is 00:46:02 So my life is very different than it was 20 years ago. I don't think that what my life is now is very important for the young people who are listening, if they are. But let's say that life is always a combination of things that we want to do, things that we can, things we cannot. So I think that I would say just, you know, pursue your dreams, go for what you want to do. And how can I say this? Live the present time. My life, which I'm very fortunate, I have a great life, family is very important, and friendship,

Starting point is 00:46:40 and faithful friends and students, who might consider friends, of course, now. This is very important. Life is, first of all, made of human beings, and that's the most important thing. There's no point doing music if one is, you know, secluded solitary creature of course some people can be you know solitary geniuses but that's that's an exception but let's say as a human being we are solitary solid solid solidary sorry we're not

Starting point is 00:47:14 solitary i wanted to say the contrary well so we're social we're a social creature so we need to put a lot of time and energy in being a good person with our close family and friends so that's the first thing the second thing is that we need to and i think that you're asking me i spend a considerable amount of time doing things that i find good for health mental health such as yes cooking or taking the time to appreciate the beauty of nature or whatever inspires you and you said the word hobby earlier in the podcast and i don't really believe in hobbies i believe in passions so if if there's something that really impassion you well just pursue it and and of course from outside people will think it's a hobby let's let's have an example you were asking me

Starting point is 00:48:14 about my life i like to do aviation yes you said it so it's something that's always been in my blood it's in my family i've had several simulators and all that but it's fairly recent that i've really digged with my physical body into a real airplane and learned my private pilot license and everything. But I cannot call that a hobby. It takes so much study. It's so dangerous. It's so critical at every second.

Starting point is 00:48:47 It requires so much training. The security is so maxed. I cannot call that a hobby. some people love cooking traveling it can be considered a hobby but if you do it passionately it becomes something that is so important for you so i would say to answer your question my life resembles a life of everything that i do is passionate and fun and uh that's why i think it's healthy you know and it can be very different it's different from one stage of life to another And of course, one has to, you know, go through some hassles also.

Starting point is 00:49:27 I mean, it's not always easy. So that's why the compensation of the other passions that one can have help go through the difficulties because there are some difficulties. I think that's my favorite answer to this question. Jean-François, is there a performance that has stayed with you throughout the years and why? Yeah, man, that's a hard one. You know, with literally several thousand concerts, what would be one memorable?

Starting point is 00:50:02 My God, there are so many. It depends memorable in which respect. You know, memorable for one of the best concerts I've ever heard. Well, there's a few, you know, I don't know. First time I heard the Cleveland Orchestra in New York once, And it was with, I think it was, Giulini was still alive. And it was amazing. You know, you have concerts like this that you say,

Starting point is 00:50:26 wow, I've never heard anything like this before. But, you know, once there was a concert where I was playing the Montreal Symphony. It was 20 years old. And Leontyne Price came and sang with us. And she finished her bunch of arias that was totally incredible with an encore. and she sang her famous my man's gone now and it was so overpoweringly beautiful that i i had to run out of stage after the performance to run outside to just go and and and be by myself to weep the my whole body you know it was uh really amazing you know sometimes you don't know why

Starting point is 00:51:11 some people they will sing or play there's one note that will trigger a flow of emotion that's amazing i think that's totally inexplicable and then that that's the power of music but i've had several experiences where you are in the middle of nowhere on tour and then it's sometimes it's very funny and one more i want to say i was doing a tour with my pianist of Mozart sonatas on original instruments because I recorded all the 16 sonatas on a label called Analecta. And it's out there on Naxos online.

Starting point is 00:51:50 And we did a lot of touring before we recorded. I was playing on a Baroque violin, 1680 Albanus, with a classical bow, and my partner, David Brightman, was playing on a great fortepiano similar to the one in Mozart's room in Salzburg. So we went to a tour of Nova Scotia, Canada, and there was a remote location that we knew of that was going to be hard to get to up in the mountains. And literally, we had to go up with it.

Starting point is 00:52:20 We had the fortepiano and the little love truck, you know, and we literally had to climb up a two, you know, two tire track road up the mountain. and it started to be really, really foggy and we went into the fog and continued and continued and we finally found on the top of those mountains, totally in the mist, this little wooden church with no electricity, no running water, nothing, nobody and it was really, really, really funny. We installed the piano, he tuned and we started rehearsing.

Starting point is 00:52:55 It sounded great but we were a bit afraid of no light, you know. but unfortunately the concert was at the end of the afternoon and we there was enough light to play and you know suddenly half an hour before the concert hundreds of people started to arrive with pickups from all over the country it was totally surreal and and then the the church was full we played that concert it was so humid and you know without electricity i could not use the hair blower to straighten up my hair on my bow which was so mellow because of the humidity but anyways it was and then everybody left and then we were totally alone again after the concert in the middle of the mountains in the mist it was really a it's like if it had not happened you know

Starting point is 00:53:45 a dream this is a great adventure so as you mentioned you don't really play the violin anymore on maybe for fun still oh yeah yeah i did once or twice uh not that much for fun it was the funeral of my father-in-law and i decided with my my daughter julie who is a violinist we played we played together for him and for my wife who of course didn't play i played once in the last 10 years perhaps uh no i don't play i don't have to you know what playing is easy it's not playing the problem it's the very topic of your thing it's the practicing you know i don't have time to practice so for those of us who are still playing do you have a tool that you think is really important to use in the practice room yeah there's a couple i was thinking of

Starting point is 00:54:42 one of them is the big picture so if one can see that for example in the tchaikovsky first movement there's some difficulties in the recap that are way more difficult than in the exposition then one should plan the practicing in consequence having a big picture of all the difficulties of a piece or a movement and going for the very very organic kind of practicing where you address the difficulties by topic uh you know for example if we have the same twice in the piece well you practice both uh in the same instance and then if you have to practice let's say another take it, take it, take it

Starting point is 00:55:33 why not practicing both passages at the same time, so a good way to analyze all the difficulties, see the big picture and make a plan of how to address all these difficulties by topic and not

Starting point is 00:55:49 on a timeline that goes from the first note to the last note of the piece that's one thing, the second one I would say that it's the principle of the obstacle course um i'm talking about let's say well you know because we we spoke about that earlier many years ago but if you think of one difficulty let's say one arpeggio that goes up to the top note and of course everybody miss the top note always and then you practice practice

Starting point is 00:56:20 practice until you finally reach the top note once and then you move on to something else Of course, you practiced 10 times, missing it, and you get it once, so you're going to be crappy next time for sure. The obstacle course principle for me is that if you start running an obstacle course, the first few obstacles will be kind of okay and easy. But the more you run through the obstacle course, the more you're going to be breathless and the more obstacles will come like more suddenly or more like surprises until you're going to miss the last ones. This is the principle of our arpeggio going to the top note. So my advice is what I would call reverse practicing, where you start with the chunk at the top. Then you add the chunk that's before and you run the chunk before and the last chunk. and then you go back to the third backward.

Starting point is 00:57:16 I'm not talking backwards, note for note. I'm talking backwards by chunks. But, you know, practicing intelligently by chunks like that is another. There's a third one that I'd like to propose is never do anything without visualizing it in your head. so that means that if you're going to do a gesture or a bunch of notes that go from one point to another before even playing them one should not only hear them in one's head but imagine the motion of doing it imagine the fingers

Starting point is 00:57:55 doing them and finally when you visualize really well then trying to do with with your hand um if you take that principle really far uh you could it's rostropovich who was used to say that before playing a note on his cello he used he would never do it before knowing the whole piece by memory but but that's a bit big but for sure it's pointless to play something without hearing it before and you know it's unfortunately it's so true of so many young players who just put the score in front of them and start from the first note and discover the piece by playing it it's not the good way to discover it and that leads me to a fourth recommendation listening to a lot of music live is better but recordings is fine but not one or

Starting point is 00:58:47 two because then we start imitating but always many many versions and you know it's fantastic now with tools like of course youtube is great but sounds pretty crappy but it's it's fantastic to see a lot of great players better than that we have resources like almost every student is plugged somewhere in a university or a live public library to naxos music online where you get about everything you want and with these tools you can open several windows in your computer and compare a lot of players, great players from Oistrakh to Ivrigitlis playing the same thing and compare how they use the bow, how it sounds. You can listen to other, let's say, other pieces by composers of the piece you play. If you play a Beethoven sonata, but please don't listen to the

Starting point is 00:59:39 Beethoven sonata. Listen to piano sonatas and string quartets and symphonies until you get enough of the spirit and the culture of beethoven to understand your very sonata after that so that means that listening to a lot of music and i mean a lot of music including basic food like bach well that leads to developing one's imagination and then being it's easier to listen in in your head and visualize what you're going to practice after yeah that's such a great answer earlier you talked about how the secrets to violin playing was bow distribution i'm guessing for winds that would be the airflow but you just encapsulated the secrets to efficient practice well then it's up to everybody to manage it practicing is management yes it's really

Starting point is 01:00:31 management so planning and knowing what you're talking about yeah jean-francois what is a piece of advice that was given to you that you would like to pass on to our listeners probably one of the best advice i was ever given was by my mother my mother was an organist and i must say that it was a bit serious because when i was a kid the earliest music that i can remember of playing in the house was the g minor fantasia by bach which is pretty overpowering it's a party house yeah But, you know, the advice that she was giving me at the time was very logical from an organist perspective, but not at all from a violinist perspective. She was always saying, listen to the bass, listen to the bass. And that, of course, did change my life because it is the quintessence of how to listen to start by listening to the bass.

Starting point is 01:01:30 But it is not so evident for a treble part player like a violinist. So that's the advice that probably was most important in my life. I agree with you. And I think that's a piece of advice you gave me. Jean-Francois, to finish, do you have a quick actionable tip that the listeners could implement today in their musical lives? Just love every fraction of instant of every note of every music they're doing. That's it. And you know what?

Starting point is 01:02:01 That's even the secret against performance anxiety. the cure to it resides in the present when you play if you're totally in love with the very moment of the very note that you're playing well then you can't really think in the past or in the future and then you're much more comfortable so i think the that's the best advice i can give is to really to really love it at every moment and be in the present tense that's amazing jean-francois i can't express with words what it means to me to have you on the show today you are more than a teacher to me you're a mentor and a father figure and a very dear friend and i'm so grateful for everything you've done for me thank you so much

Starting point is 01:02:48 thank you rendy paul i mean you you gave it back a hundred times Thank you guys so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this chat with Jean-Francois Rivet. I can't even pick a favorite takeaway from this show because I feel like it goes way beyond the nitty gritty stuff and really takes us back to the bigger conversation and to what is truly important. But I would love to know what your favorite takeaway from today's show is. So look up Mind Over Finger on Instagram and Facebook and let me know. Also, join the Mind Over Finger tribe at facebook.com slash groups slash Mind Over Finger tribe for inspiration, motivation, support, and more discussions on how to take your practice to the next level and enjoy the process. As always, you can find the show notes for this episode, resources on mindful and deliberate practice, and more information about Jean-Francois at mindoverfinger.com.

Starting point is 01:03:56 also please do me a favor and head over to itunes to rate and leave a review i truly appreciate every single one of them and they make all the hard work worth it next week i'll be talking to michael klotz violist with the amaranth quartet and senior instructor at florida international university in miami michael and i were colleagues in the studio of swiss eitlen at the eastman School of Music and the Music Academy of the West, and we discuss our experience studying with Mr. Zeitlin and his lasting influence on our lives. A big thank you to my wonderful producer, Bella Kelly, and thank you for being here. À bientôt! Hello everyone, it's with immense pleasure that I receive someone really special for me today.

Starting point is 01:04:53 I have the honor of speaking with Jean-François Rivet, head of the orchestra and professor with whom I had the chance to study the violin for 11 years. I started with Jean-François at the Chicoutimi Conservatory at the age of 9 years et j'ai continué jusqu'à ma graduation de l'Université de Montréal à l'âge de 20 ans. Jean-François est quelqu'un d'absolument extraordinaire, comme vous allez pouvoir le constater. Il est un très grand artiste, et c'est la personne que je considère comme ayant eu la plus profonde influence

Starting point is 01:05:21 sur mon évolution en tant que musicienne. Aujourd'hui, il nous parle d'écoute, d'imagination, de passion, et de comment toujours grandir comme être humain et comme artiste. Je vous invite à lire son impressionnante biographie dans les notes qui viennent avec cet épisode. J'aimerais aussi beaucoup savoir ce que vous pensez de l'épisode, alors trouvez-moi sur Instagram ou Facebook. Il va y avoir les liens dans les notes de l'épisode. Et je vous invite à joindre le groupe de pratiques intentionnelles

Starting point is 01:05:51 en visitant facebook.com baroblique groups baroblique pratiques intentionnelles. Et maintenant, ma discussion avec le merveilleux Jean-François Rivet. Jean-François Rivet, c'est un énorme plaisir de pouvoir discuter avec toi aujourd'hui. C'est la même chose pour moi. C'est vraiment, écoute, ça fait tellement longtemps qu'on se connaît. Et puis, c'est un grand, grand plaisir d'être sur ton podcast avec toi. Comme je disais dans la portion anglaise de l'entrevue, t'es probablement la personne qui a le plus profondément marqué mon cheminement musical.

Starting point is 01:06:37 Et non seulement parce que j'ai étudié avec toi pendant 11 ans, de l'âge de 9 ans jusqu'à 20 ans, mais on ne dira pas en quelle année, mais aussi parce que t'as vraiment influencé ma vision des choses en dehors de la musique, de juste jouer du violon. Je pense que pas mal, tous tes élèves peuvent s'entendre pour dire que t'as vraiment toujours eu à cœur de nous encourager à écouter, à être perceptif de tout ce qui nous entoure, à être curieux, à explorer, à apprendre toujours plus, à pousser plus loin et apprécier toutes les choses de la vie, la nature, l'art, la bonne bouffe. Et ça, c'est vraiment un cadeau,

Starting point is 01:07:21 un grand cadeau parce que c'est une qualité qui affecte tout, comment on joue et comment on vit. Alors, avant de se lancer dans des questions plus axées sur la musique, j'aimerais que tu nous racontes ton histoire un peu parce que c'est un parcours vraiment fascinant et qui illustre bien ce que je viens de dire. Alors, peux-tu nous raconter un petit peu ton cheminement musical et qui est Jean-François Rivet? Avec plaisir. C'est pas compliqué. J'ai commencé comme un jeune violoniste doué.

Starting point is 01:07:54 Donc, à l'âge de 6-7 ans, je faisais du violon, du piano. J'ai étudié au conservatoire. J'ai étudié avec une professeure extraordinaire qui s'appelle Mme Yelikova à Montréal. J'ai étudié l'harmonie, le contrepoint. J'ai fait plein de choses assez jeune. J'ai développé mon oreille intérieure, dictée, solfège, comme tout le monde.

Starting point is 01:08:19 Je me suis ramassé à Juilliard, à New York, à l'âge de 18 ans, 19 ans. J'ai fait mon bac en un an, ma maîtrise en un an. Et puis, je suis revenu de Juilliard, puis à 20 ans, j'ai passé l'audition pour les premiers violons de l'OSM, où j'ai obtenu un poste. Alors, j'ai été chanceux de gagner cette audition-là. J'ai passé cinq ans dans des très bonnes années à l'époque des grandes tournées internationales où l'orchestre était en train de prendre une expansion incroyable grâce au partenariat du Toit-Zarid-Metta, etc. C'était vraiment une des années très, très riches de l'OSM.

Starting point is 01:08:58 Alors, j'ai été violoniste à l'orchestre à ce moment-là. J'ai enseigné à McGill, j'ai fait vraiment toutes sortes d'ensembles et puis un peu de solo, un peu de musique de chambre, etc. Et puis moi, puisque je suis un gars assez attiré par la nature, ceux qui me connaissent vont sourire, mais c'est très important dans ma vie. Un de mes rêves, c'était d'aller habiter vraiment dans la nature profonde et puis c'était impossible dans la vie de musicien de ville que j'étais, New York, Montréal, tout ça. Alors, j'ai accepté une offre qu'on m'a faite d'aller enseigner au conservatoire de Chicoutimi. Et j'ai lâché tout ce que je faisais à Montréal à 25 ans, puis je suis allé au conservatoire de Chicoutimi. Et dans le but de me trouver une maison dans la forêt ou quelque chose. En tout cas, c'était un peu un rêve d'enfance.

Starting point is 01:09:43 Et là, bien, au conservatoire de Chicoutimi, j'ai découvert des jeunes avec beaucoup, beaucoup de talent, dont une certaine Renée-Paul Gaultier, et puis plusieurs autres. Et j'ai rencontré ma femme, Édith, on a eu nos deux premiers enfants à Chicoutimi, j'ai eu une superbe classe de violon, et j'ai parti à un orchestre de chambre avec mes étudiants, puis avec d'autres, c'était vraiment formidable. Et j'ai trouvé ce que je cherchais, c'est-à-dire une petite maison dans le fjord du Saguenay, avec les belugas, puis les aurores boréales.

Starting point is 01:10:09 Donc, c'était une partie de ma vie extrêmement importante. Évidemment, je ne pouvais pas rester là éternellement, on m'a rapatrié, dans le sens qu'on m'a offert un job à l'Université de Montréal, où je suis depuis maintenant 27 ans, prof de violon, pendant une première partie. Et là, j'ai commencé à diriger plus sérieusement. J'ai eu toutes sortes de moments dans ma carrière, mais on peut dire que la direction est devenue plus sérieuse à un moment donné. J'ai eu le poste de directeur artistique de l'Orchestre symphonique de Laval pendant 10 ans,

Starting point is 01:10:38 de l'Orchestre 13 Strings à Ottawa pendant 5 ans. J'ai dirigé beaucoup, ici comme à l'étranger, comme aux États-Unis, comme en Europe, comme en Amérique du Sud, Mais surtout ici, pour ceux qui connaissent plus l'environnement d'ici, j'ai beaucoup dirigé l'OSM, l'OM, les ballets, l'Opéra de Montréal, les violons du roi. En tout cas, j'ai eu la chance de diriger beaucoup ici. Alors ça, c'est le fun. Et puis, quelque chose que je n'ai pas mentionné dans ton entrevue en anglais tantôt, mais j'ai quand même été pendant 6-7 ans directeur artistique du Centre d'art Orford, proche de Montréal,

Starting point is 01:11:12 qui est quand même quelque chose qui m'a demandé beaucoup d'énergie et qui a été très valorisant. J'ai pu le faire développer beaucoup. Ça, ça a été vraiment le fun. Et puis voilà, aujourd'hui, je peux dire que c'est la direction que j'enseigne le plus. J'ai toujours un étudiant ou deux de temps en temps en violon, mais j'enseigne la direction d'orchestre à l'Université de Montréal. Et je dirige toujours à plein temps. Donc, je suis en plein encosiphon touté en ce moment. Tu fais vraiment tout. Tu es violoniste, chef d'orchestre, directeur musical, professeur.

Starting point is 01:11:44 avant tout un grand artiste et un grand enthousiaste de la vie. Et une chose que t'as pas dit que moi je peux mentionner, c'est vraiment tu dis que t'as passé sept ans au Saguenay, mais t'as vraiment laissé ta marque, t'as eu un impact très important pendant que t'étais là.

Starting point is 01:12:00 T'étais une grande force artistique dans la région pendant que t'étais là. Puis je pense que tu fais la même chose un peu partout. Tu fais une différence et ton énergie est contagieuse et je pense que tout le monde bénéficie de cet enthousiasme-là, de cette passion-là que tu as, c'est vraiment

Starting point is 01:12:16 extraordinaire. Merci. Jean-François, on a discuté pas mal en anglais et j'espère vraiment que nos amis francophones ici ont écouté la portion anglaise parce que c'était rempli de j'aime précieux et de très grande sagesse.

Starting point is 01:12:32 Alors, si on peut faire juste un petit retour là-dessus, on a parlé de comment développer une aptitude à écouter mieux, à développer notre oreille et notre sensibilité artistique et élargir notre habileté de percevoir en général. Peux-tu résumer ça un peu, en gros?

Starting point is 01:12:51 Oui, en quelques mots, c'est mon point de vue, évidemment. Je ne peux que partager mon point de vue. Mais non, ce que je veux dire, c'est qu'on pourrait voir les choses autrement. Mais je vais partager mon point de vue à moi. Je pense que la question musicale, Well, first of all, I strongly believe that music is one of the most beautiful manifestations of the human spirit and is a manifestation of human imagination. It is first of all something that happens in the musical imagination of each person. Everyone has a musical imagination, except for exceptions.

Starting point is 01:13:30 And I think that when we make music, we create music in our musical imagination, On le transfère à notre instrument, qui fait voyager la musique jusqu'à l'auditeur ou le public. Et là, ça retourne dans l'imaginaire musical de notre public ou de notre auditeur. Et dans le fond, la communication est d'imaginaire musical à imaginaire musical. Le son réel de l'instrument n'est qu'un passage, un outil. Donc, ceci étant dit, ça veut dire que le grand travail qu'on a à faire d'abord, Il est sur notre imaginaire musical, pas sur notre violon. D'abord, bien sûr que notre violon ou notre instrument doit posséder la technique adéquate pour réussir à passer le message.

Starting point is 01:14:17 Mais ça, c'est de la technique. Mais vraiment, le fond de la musique, c'est l'imaginaire musical qu'on doit développer. Pour pouvoir le développer, c'est comme il faut apprendre à voir. Et pour apprendre à voir, il faut apprendre à développer nos sensors, comme on dit en français, c'est-à-dire nos radars, nos yeux musicaux, nos oreilles internes musicales. Et pour ça, on ne peut pas voir ce qu'on ne voit pas, on ne peut pas entendre ce qu'on n'entend pas. Et pour ça, on a besoin de l'aide de d'autres qui vont nous pointer, nous montrer les choses. Ça commence par le solfège, la dictée musicale, une tonne d'harmonie, de contrepoint, d'analyse,

Starting point is 01:14:56 analyse judicieuse qui fait qu'on comprend comment la musique est construite, pas juste constater, d'histoire, puis l'histoire, pas de l'étude têteuse de par cœur, mais de l'histoire qui fait qu'on ressent ce que les compositeurs ressentaient au moment où, en tout cas, on essaye de ressentir, on essaye de comprendre leur cheminement, on essaye de comprendre les grands courants de l'histoire. C'est quelque chose, quand tu penses que je suis en train de faire cosy, puis c'est l'année avant la Révolution française, puis ça parle des castes sociales, un instant, c'est pas rien, mais ça parle pas juste de ça.

Starting point is 01:15:29 Alors, je pense que, ce que je veux dire, c'est que toutes ces disciplines parallèles à l'instrument, que beaucoup d'étudiants font comme s'ils sont obligés, parce que c'est plate, faire du ear training, c'est faux. Tout ça contribue à notre culture musicale. Tout ça, en plus de la connaissance du répertoire. Puis ça, la connaissance du répertoire, c'est pas combien Brahms a écrit de symphonies. Ah oui, quatre. Non, c'est pas ça. C'est une connaissance intime qui nous fait pleurer tellement que c'est beau. Et c'est cette connaissance-là, c'est cette prise en charge de la musique en dedans de notre âme à nous qui fait qu'après ça, on a de quoi à dire dans notre message, mais on a aussi une immense culture musicale sur laquelle s'appuyer pour essayer d'imaginer notre musique.

Starting point is 01:16:13 Alors, je pense que la job qu'on a à faire en tant que musicien en développement, c'est développer notre culture musicale et notre grande, grande écoute intérieure. Après ça, bien sûr, on développe notre technique pour être capable de jouer comme on l'entend. Et puis là, bien, la clé, c'est d'être capable d'accorder notre technique à ce que notre imagination entend. À chaque note, à chaque seconde, à chaque distribution d'archets, à chaque souffle. Et puis ça, bien, ça devient un exercice de visualisation

Starting point is 01:16:44 où est-ce qu'il n'y a pas une note qu'on joue sans l'avoir profondément bien entendue. Après ça, on va être capable de la jouer comme on l'entend. C'est extraordinaire. Et pour quelqu'un qui voudrait faire un cheminement dans ce sens-là, comment on peut s'y prendre? C'est où un bon endroit pour commencer? Je pense que tout cheminement est par nature un cheminement personnel. Ça, mettons qu'on parle d'un étudiant qui soit jeune, qui soit avancé, qu'on soit jeune professionnel en développement, qu'on soit un artiste en plein développement, on est toujours en évolution.

Starting point is 01:17:18 Et le projet de se développer est, heureusement ou malheureusement, dépendant du point de vue, totalement notre responsabilité. Ce n'est pas le prof qui nous fait nous développer. C'est nous, notre professeur. Le prof est un guide qui va nous montrer des trucs, qui va nous amener sur des terrains, qui va nous ouvrir des portes, qui va nous ouvrir les yeux. Mais dans le fond, la job, on la fait soi-même.

Starting point is 01:17:42 Alors, où commencer? Bien, il n'y a pas de secret. Il y a plein de façons de commencer. Je veux dire, il n'y a pas une seule façon. Mais il faut commencer une chose à la fois. Et puis, je pense que si on dit, bien, qu'il faut développer son imagination musicale, puis qu'il faut écouter de la musique, tout ça,

Starting point is 01:17:58 il faut commencer par quelque chose, n'importe quoi. Souvent, ça peut être lié à ce qu'on est en train d'étudier. Si on joue une sonate de Beethoven, il faut certainement aller écouter les quatuors, puis aller écouter les sonates de piano, puis qu'on connaisse les symphonies de Beethoven. Ah, puis tiens, peut-être ses prédécesseurs. Pourquoi Beethoven écrit ça de même?

Starting point is 01:18:16 Parce que Haydn a fait ça de même. Mais est-ce qu'on connaît bien Carl Philipp, Emmanuel, qui, lui, a inventé le style classique? Ah, tiens, bon, allez, écoutez l'autre chose. Je pense que souvent, une bonne façon de procéder, c'est d'aller de fil en aiguille, comme ça. Une chose amène une autre chose amène une autre chose. Au lieu de dire, bon, bien, OK, aujourd'hui,

Starting point is 01:18:33 je prends l'histoire de la musique, puis je passe du début jusqu'à la fin, de A à Z, on le fera jamais. Si on dit, ah, non, non, tiens, je vais écouter toutes les sonates de Mozart, bien non, on le fera jamais non plus. Alors, je pense qu'il faut y aller un peu avec de l'intuition.

Starting point is 01:18:46 On peut y aller au hasard. On peut y aller un petit peu méthodiquement. Mais je pense qu'à travers le cheminement, il faut qu'il y ait toujours une bonne santé. La bonne santé, ça veut dire que ça inclut du travail sur l'oreille, puis ça inclut du travail sur la technique. Ça, on ne peut pas lâcher, ça en prend tout le temps. Mais à travers ça, on développe notre écoute, on développe notre sensibilité, puis toutes nos expériences comptent là-dedans. Même

Starting point is 01:19:12 un voyage en Europe, ou un après-midi au musée, ou un Saint-Exupéry qu'on va lire En passant, toutes ces expériences-là contribuent à nous enrichir et à nous faire devenir un meilleur musicien. Donc, c'est une expérience à la fois. C'est vrai. Très, très vrai. Jean-François, une question que j'aime demander à mes invités, c'est leur vision d'une session de pratique idéale. Il y a plusieurs façons d'approcher ça et c'est une grosse question.

Starting point is 01:19:43 Oui. Alors, qu'est-ce que c'est selon toi? Wow. Bien, évidemment, ça peut dépendre des circonstances. Mettons qu'on est dans le feu de l'action, qu'on a un concert à jouer dans les prochains jours, on ne fera pas le même genre de pratique que si on est dans un développement où est-ce qu'on a deux mois avant une fin maîtrise ou je ne sais pas quoi. Alors, il n'y a pas de pratique idéale at large.

Starting point is 01:20:08 Ça dépend vraiment des circonstances. Mais il y a quand même des critères qui sont récurrents. Le premier, c'est la bonne santé. Et pour ça, ça veut dire s'échauffer, s'étirer, se préparer. La plus grande ennemie du bon travail, c'est le stress. De tellement vouloir qu'on plonge comme des fous dans un travail effréné, stressé. Donc, travailler calmement, travailler lentement, respirer, être en bonne santé dans notre travail. Arrêter souvent pour s'étirer, ne pas se faire mal.

Starting point is 01:20:43 Bon, ça, c'est une bonne chose. Je crois beaucoup aussi à, peu importe ce qu'on pratique et comment on le fait, il y a un critère, c'est d'être toujours connecté à ce qu'on fait. Donc, écouter profondément tout le temps, chaque seconde, et pas pratiquer machinalement. Maintenant, quand même, pour répondre à ta question, je pense qu'une pratique, d'après moi, c'est vraiment un projet qu'il faut manager, comme si on était le gérant d'une compagnie de pratique. Mais ça, ça veut dire, regardez c'est quoi le but. Ah, je dois apprendre cette pièce-là pendant deux mois. Cette route-là pendant quatre. Celle-ci pendant deux semaines. Et je joue ça en concert demain. Mais ça, c'est quatre projets différents qui doivent se chevaucher. Alors, je propose que la planification de la pratique soit toujours un genre de gérance organique où est-ce qu'on sait combien de temps on a jusqu'à temps qu'on va falloir qu'on soit prêt avec cette œuvre-là ou avec cette étude-là ou avec ce projet-là.

Starting point is 01:21:39 Donc, de la gérance, une bonne gérance. Après ça, bien, on divise le temps qu'on a. On n'a pas toujours les 4-5 heures qu'on voudrait avoir par jour, mais le temps qu'on a, on le divise entre du temps pour s'échauffer, du temps pour faire une certaine proportion de technique parce que si on n'a pas une bonne technique, on ne vaut rien. Et puis, le reste du temps, on divise ce qu'on peut dans les différents projets.

Starting point is 01:22:02 Je pense qu'une dernière chose que j'aurais le goût de dire, c'est qu'on ne regarde pas assez les avantages et la bonne santé de faire de la pratique virtuelle dans sa tête. Qu'on soit dans le métro, qu'on soit dans l'autobus, qu'on soit en train de marcher, ça c'est encore mieux. Visualiser,

Starting point is 01:22:17 voir les déplacements, les changements de position, les difficultés, voir passer les différents traits, les notes, entendre les sons qu'on veut faire, les tempos qu'on voudrait avoir. Je pense que ça, ça donne énormément d'avantages et c'est pas

Starting point is 01:22:32 fatigant, puis ça fait passer un temps qui, autrement, les autres personnes autour de nous, dans le train, ils regardent des stupides soap operas sur leur téléphone, sans parler de Facebook. Jean-François, une chose que t'as dit tantôt dans l'entrevue en anglais que j'aimais vraiment beaucoup,

Starting point is 01:22:48 c'est que tu as mentionné que chaque geste compte. Et ça, je suis d'accord avec toi, non seulement en termes de ce que ça fait dans la pratique, si on va dans le concret, dans le micro, dans la technicalité que chaque, pour une violoniste, chaque coup d'archet compte, on peut construire des bonnes habitudes ou on peut aussi le faire d'une façon un peu passive et ne pas construire. Ou peut-être pour un instrumentiste avant, c'est dans le contrôle de l'air. Mais, alors, on peut le voir de ce point de vue-là, mais aussi sur le point de vue de la vie en général, que chaque geste compte.

Starting point is 01:23:27 Et si, avant qu'on se quête, tu pouvais juste nous reparler de ça un petit peu, juste au cas où certaines personnes n'ont pas eu la chance d'entendre l'entrevue en anglais, et ça, je trouvais que c'était un point extrêmement important, vraiment, à quel point chaque geste compte. OK. Bien, en fait, je vais partir d'un point de vue qui est bien simple. Alors, je pense que le mot hobby, ou en français, pire, désennui, est un peu l'ennemi du développement personnel. Dans le sens que ce qui est important, c'est que tout ce qu'on fait, on le fait parce qu'on en est passionné. On le fait parce que ça nous enrichit. On le fait parce qu'on aime ça.

Starting point is 01:24:11 Alors que, oui, il y a des choses qu'on fait dans notre métier, Puis il y a des choses qu'on fait en dehors de notre métier qui nous apportent d'autres richesses, même qui nous changent l'esprit. C'est important de se changer les idées. Je ne suis pas contre ça. Mais on ne le fait pas comme pour passer le temps. On ne le fait pas comme pour un hobby. À moins que le hobby, c'est ça que ça veut dire peut-être. Mais on le fait parce que ça nous enrichit autrement. Alors, je pense que tout ce qu'on fait, que ce soit pour prendre du temps avec notre famille, puis ça, la nourriture, on parle souvent de beaucoup de cuisine dans notre société actuelle, c'est parce qu'on est un petit peu en recherche de comment arrêter la roue qui tourne tellement trop vite dans nos vies de fous. puis c'est multiplié par mille avec l'étalement urbain, avec la demande constante d'efficacité dans tout ce qui nous entoure, et surtout avec beaucoup de manque de profondeur dans une vie qui est très en surface. Je pense à toute la vie virtuelle, réseaux sociaux,

Starting point is 01:25:17 que beaucoup de gens vivent, apparence, Instagram, ta-ta-ta. Finalement, on se retrouve avec du monde qui ne met pas les deux mains dedans, bien souvent. Ils sont tout le temps sur une espèce d'autre planète qui n'existe pas vraiment, alors qu'il faut se mettre les deux mains dedans puis faire des choses. Alors, oui, se mettre les deux mains dans

Starting point is 01:25:34 la nourriture, se mettre les deux mains dans le jardinaire, puis se mettre les deux mains dans n'importe quelle activité qu'on aime faire parce que ça nous passionne, que ce soit la randonnée en montagne, que ce soit la plongée sous-marine, n'importe quoi. C'est quelque chose qui nous permet de plonger dans la vie

Starting point is 01:25:52 avec passion et avec notre corps et notre esprit entier, et qui, oui, nous changent les idées de notre travail, qui souvent est assez assidu et harassant. Mais cette philosophie-là vaut à peu près à tous les niveaux. Donc, c'est la même chose dans chaque note quand on joue, mais c'est la même chose dans chaque geste qu'on pose, puis c'est la même chose dans chaque activité qu'on fait. On le fait à plein, tout le temps.

Starting point is 01:26:15 Vivre à 100 000 à l'heure, c'est pas vivre en courant. Vivre à 100 000 à l'heure, c'est vivre en appréciant chaque moment, au présent, tout le temps. C'est peut-être utopique un peu, puis ça ne marche pas tout le temps, mais disons que c'est un mode de vie. Jean-François, comme je l'ai dit plus tôt, tu es probablement la personne

Starting point is 01:26:32 qui a marqué mon parcours comme musicienne le plus. Et tu es aussi une source d'inspiration en général pour moi et pour d'autres maintenant, j'en suis certaine, pour comment être vraiment présent dans la vie

Starting point is 01:26:46 et essayer de vivre pleinement. Alors, je suis vraiment reconnaissante pour tous ces beaux cadeaux que tu m'as fait à travers les années et encore maintenant. Et merci infiniment d'avoir pris le temps de parler avec moi aujourd'hui. Ah bien, écoute, c'est un grand, grand plaisir

Starting point is 01:27:02 parce que, tu sais, donner dans la vie, ça se fait pas sans qu'il y ait quelqu'un qui non seulement le reçoit, mais aussi qui en donne autant en échange. C'était ton cas, puis c'était le cas d'autres étudiants que j'ai eus aussi, mais vraiment, c'est l'échange qui compte.

Starting point is 01:27:16 Puis dans le fond, on est en train de dire peut-être la chose la plus importante, c'est les relations humaines. So, it's me who thanks you, Paul.

The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 025 Jean-François Rivest: The Incredible Artistic Powers of Passion & Imagination

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