The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 028 Joshua Roman: Working Purposefully & Building a Meaningful Career

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to the Mind Over Finger Podcast, episode number 28. Welcome to the Mind Over Finger Podcast, discussions on mindful music making, efficient practice, and building a purposeful career. And now, your host, Dr. Renée Paul Gaultier. Hi, everyone. I hope you had a wonderful week. Before we go to the show, I want to thank all of you who took the time to reach out to me by sending me a text or a DM via Instagram or Facebook to let me know that you love the show. It's also been so wonderful to chat in person with those of you living in the Chicago area. Thank you so much for all of your kind words. They mean a lot to me and it makes me extremely happy to read that so many of you find value

Starting point is 00:01:03 and inspiration in my guest stories and insight. Thank you. And for those of you who have not done it yet, don't hesitate to drop me a note and let me know what you think. Or even take a screenshot when you like something while listening to the podcast, share it on Instagram, and tag me so I can say hello and know who you are and what you like. So now let's get back to talking music. Last week, I spoke with Gerardo Ribeiro, violin professor at Northwestern University. We spoke about his experience studying with Ivan Gilamian, how he uses mental practice, why it's important for us to listen attentively and assess

Starting point is 00:01:45 critically what we're doing, and the importance of taking ownership of our learning experience. And today, I am so happy to bring you the incredible cellist Joshua Roman. Joshua is a multifaceted artist with a remarkably vibrant career. He's a soloist, chamber musician, composer, curator, artistic director, and philanthropist. He's earned an international reputation for his wide-ranging repertoire, his commitment to communicating the essence of music in visionary ways, his artistic leadership, and his versatility. As well as being a celebrated performer, Joshua is recognized as an accomplished composer and curator and was named a Ted Senior Fellow in 2015. In this episode, we discuss practicing purposefully and building a

Starting point is 00:02:39 meaningful career, and he tells us about the impact and mission of his popular Piper Etude project and challenge. As you'll see, Joshua's journey and approach to music making are rooted in authenticity and a sense of purpose and are highly inspiring, and I know you'll find value and a source for a deeper reflection in this episode. Let's go to the show. Joshua Roman, thank you so much for being on the show today. Of course, Renee. Thank you for having me. Joshua, I first encountered you when you performed your own concerto

Starting point is 00:03:24 with the Illinois Philharmonic a few years ago. and you came back to Chicago last September to perform the Mason Bates Concerto with the Elgin Symphony and I loved both performances so much and I'm so happy that we have a chance to talk today. Me too I love I've checked out some of the other episodes of the podcast and of course I'm obsessed with practicing so thank you for having me on. Joshua you lead a very vibrant career as a soloist and a chamber musician, composer, curator, artistic director, and also philanthropist from what I've seen. And you embrace all genres from Bach to jazz and rock, and you're a champion of new music and a really engaging artist. And I would love for my listeners

Starting point is 00:04:12 to get to know more about you. So I'll turn the mic to you. And I would love to hear about you and your musical journey and how this artistic path of yours has unfolded? Sure. I'd love to share. I do a lot of different kinds of things, as you said. And it's interesting because it's a constant challenge for me to articulate in a way that other people understand that for me, they're all part of the same package. Even though I do compose and I curate and I play different styles of music on the cello. It's all to me, just part of being a complete musician from my perspective. And I think maybe that's the key is that I've been lucky enough to have opportunities to bring out my own history and my own experiences in my career. I grew up in Oklahoma

Starting point is 00:05:05 where I started playing when I was three, but I studied with a violinist for the first 10 years, Lacey McCleary, who was at the time, he was the concert master of the Oklahoma City Philharmonic. and I played the cello he played that he would demonstrate on the violin he was the big violin Suzuki teacher in town and my parents had had issues finding a cello teacher that they loved that would be willing to take a three-year-old there were plenty of them that would have taken me when I was older but Lacey was up for an experiment and so from the very beginning from the very beginning of picking up the cello it was a bit unorthodox my path has been a bit unorthodox and it's not just about the learning of technique and classical music and lessons but

Starting point is 00:05:54 being pretty much the only one of my circle of friends who played the cello or maybe even generally classical music for them for the most part I was I was the only one in my circle of friends who was a classical musician so I learned very early on just to fit in with whatever was going on around me because I wanted the cello to be a part of things if my friends were doing other things so I just added the cello to the mix Oklahoma there's a lot of bluegrass there's a lot of country music I didn't do so much of that I was definitely around it and but I did play a lot in bands on the cello and ultimately also on the guitar and the upright jazz bass. I played jazz for a while and all sorts of different styles, which for me, again, was simply just a matter

Starting point is 00:06:45 of engaging in the only way that I could. And it was very natural. And when I played the cello for people who weren't musicians and I would play Bach or I would play whatever I was working on in the Suzuki books or later other stuff, you know, it was the sort of thing that now might be done on purpose as an outreach event by a classical organization, a presenting organization. But when I was growing up, for me, it was just that was the performance opportunity. So I've been very comfortable and had a lot of exposure in regards to, again, like things that sometimes are called outreach or extra classical outside of the classical box in a way.

Starting point is 00:07:28 That's just been a part of my life. And I did go to conservatory. I, you know, after I started studying with teachers who taught the cello, which was a fun change, by the way, that was that was interesting. Very different, but, but I still rely a lot on what my first teacher taught me. I went to conservatory at 16. It was the Cleveland Institute of Music. I studied with the wonderful teacher, Richard Aaron, and Desmond Hobig as well, who was at the time the principal cellist of the Cleveland Orchestra. And for those five years, I kind of let go of a lot of the other things, not everything, but a lot of the other things that I had been doing in music and really just focused on the classical repertoire. For the most part, it was just a classical repertoire. And then I got a job with the Seattle Symphony. I auditioned to be their principal cellist. I'd always wanted to be a soloist, but the path to that is unclear, especially when you come without a musical, like a strong musical network behind you like I did.

Starting point is 00:08:30 I had wonderful musicians coaching me, but not people with connections to help me with the solo career. And competitions would work for three years. I saw this with many of my friends and then stopped. So I took another path. I became principal cellist of the Seattle Symphony. I was 22. It was really exciting.

Starting point is 00:08:48 It seemed like a big deal. It was definitely a big deal to me. And the city was very receptive. The orchestra was very encouraging. And I started just immediately opening up again to anything that came my way. So I was playing in clubs, I was playing in bars, I was collaborating with a rock band. I was doing stuff in these sort of like roulette style theater nights, all sorts of crazy things in Seattle that were really just me tapping back into what my experience as a kid had

Starting point is 00:09:22 been, but this time with more visibility and yeah, basically just with a higher profile than when I was a six-year-old or a 10-year-old in Oklahoma. So anyway, it's been very interesting when I do all of these different things, that's how I see myself. I see myself as someone who plays the cello, has been passionate about the cello my entire life. When I think of the model that I follow the best examples now especially now that I compose and that I curate as well it's really the old you know I don't know if this is ironic or what but it's the old traditional models of basically every composer you ever heard of until the 20th century where they were essentially trained in all aspects of musicianship and their careers were multifaceted

Starting point is 00:10:11 sometimes messy, very beautiful expressions of their identity through music built on the tradition of the people before them. They would incorporate the sounds of their time into their music. And so for me, I get a lot of inspiration when I look at that. And that's how I see myself as trying to express things that touch me and the people that are around me and that I'm living with in this time and in this space that it's that it's about us and and not some sort of abstract thing even though of course art is always also abstract that's so beautifully put and it's fascinating to really see this unorthodox background really reflect in the career that you have today and see how it all comes together and this really beautiful tapestry

Starting point is 00:11:06 at least from the outside it's very beautiful so I hope it feels beautiful from the inside as well it does I would say you know I feel more and more connected the the thing the challenge that I mentioned earlier is is that a lot of people expect you to be one thing right that's that we specialize and finding ways to to articulate and to take on projects that demonstrate how it all fits together can be a challenge you know i'll show up one place and collaborate with like a ted i'll collaborate with uh at a ted conference i'll collaborate with a dancer and a singer and do some improv and then i feel like i have to also play bach i mean i always want to play bach but i feel like i almost immediately have to play bach just like so just so you see there's like there's

Starting point is 00:11:57 a lot more go it's not just what you see right now and vice versa when people hear perhaps that i play popper etudes online but don't realize that i also compose or that i collaborate with the jack quartet or the actor anna devere smith you know trying to as much as possible figure out ways for people to see more because i want other people to feel that freedom too that hey if you love something and you have the skills of your instrument you should use them in the ways that you love not just the like the one way that you've focused on learning but it's it's it's much more broad than that when you just follow your heart that is so true i love that and i'll open a parenthesis here to invite everyone listening to follow you on social media on your facebook page

Starting point is 00:12:49 and instagram and i saw that you also have a very active patreon profile because it's so much fun to follow you around the world and you do provide so much value on those platforms but to go back to what we were talking about you seem to have been able to create something really fulfilling and meaningful and also impactful so can you talk to us a little bit about building that unique career that you've just mentioned what's your advice if you can expand even a little bit more on that, your advice to young musicians about building the career they dream of? Yeah, so I do think about that a lot. And of course, there are many aspects to building a career, especially these days when you've got a lot of freedom, which also means a lot of

Starting point is 00:13:40 responsibility. It's not the same as it was 30 years ago, maybe even 20 years ago. There isn't, you know, there's not a single moment of getting discovered. It's a lot of moments where you build upon what's come before. So the best sort of distillation of all of that that I can think of is the idea that I started to see in my own career, which is that you get the career that you build. If you're after a crossover career, for example, then you kind of have to put it out there that you're a crossover artist. If you don't like doing recording sessions, but that's what you spend your time focusing on then you're building the wrong career I think I mean and again there are subtleties there are nuances to this there's a lot that goes into building a career but

Starting point is 00:14:27 the idea that you really focus on what you really want and and getting to understanding what that means I think takes some soul searching and some exploration it's not that you can't explore you absolutely have to explore and i think that a lot of people again like a lot of us kind of play the music that we were taught to play without questioning why or we don't play things that we love because they're not in the style that we learned and i think that that's that's a little bit like we should move past that we need to move past that if you love listening to radiohead or Lady Gaga, and your favorite thing in the world is to sing Lady Gaga or to like listen to Lady Gaga, then you should be able to play that on your instrument. And you should incorporate that

Starting point is 00:15:24 love of that into what you do. And it doesn't have to be a huge part of it. But just to explore and say, hey, I've got this great skill here. I need to connect it with my passion. And the beautiful thing that happens is sometimes you find new opportunities for your career but sometimes you also just find new ways of unlocking your own connection to phrasing and to emotion because when you really love a piece of music no matter if it's a song you hear on the radio a pop song or an art song or an opera or Bach solo Bach whatever it is the thing that you really really love when you play that you feel and you feel that special connection you that that affects you in very important ways and as a musician you have to tap into that with everything that you play

Starting point is 00:16:17 to that care that love for a note that love for a phrase that you get when you play the music that you love the most so as far as the career goes you know you may not that may not be the big thing that you do in your career, but looking at yourself and what makes you unique and what you love doing and what you think you'll still love doing in 10 years and 20 years and focusing on that, which is for most people, not quite as like focused and narrow as, as we generally treat ourselves. So there are, again, many things to a career, but, but I firmly believe that finding your voice and building your career around your voice is very important. That's so true. And we're so

Starting point is 00:17:06 impatient as well, because it really takes a lot of time to explore all of these nuances that you mentioned, and to really discover exactly, you know, to find this voice that you just mentioned, we get so impatient to see results. And it's very tempting to go down the easy road, you know. And nowadays, with the technology that we have, I think that this young generation, everything is possible. Long gone are the days where you can only access presenters through a manager. Now, through an email, you can reach someone and you send enough emails, you have a tour. you know and with technology you can post videos produce albums create podcasts you know from the comfort of your home everything is so possible and it's I love what you're saying about finding your voice it's important and I think the only other thing that I would add to go along kind of with what you were just saying back to that notion of like a moment of luck first of all like I was

Starting point is 00:18:13 saying earlier that for almost no one does it actually work that way, where there's one moment of luck. It's a series of things that you build on. But then I think it's also important to think about what is luck. And this is a saying I'm sure some of you have heard. This man that's been very important to me in my life as sort of, in a way as a mentor, loves to say that luck is preparation meets opportunity. You have to have both. You have to be prepared when an opportunity comes along. If you're not, then it won't turn out to be what you wanted. And at the same time, you can prepare all you want, but you can't be bitter if you don't have opportunities come your way. And you can't control that. All you can control is being prepared for that opportunity and maybe even

Starting point is 00:19:03 sometimes being in the right place and that's part of being prepared knowing what you want knowing how to deliver it and seeking out places where opportunity might strike and that's how you create your own set of circumstances that we other people might look at and say that's luck that's really true and you know if you feel comfortable i would love to hear but you know sometimes it's so hard to keep going when we are facing hardship or challenges or things get difficult. And if you feel comfortable, would you mind sharing with us maybe some of the challenges that you faced and overcame through the years?

Starting point is 00:19:44 Yeah. So challenges, challenges for me have taken, it's they've, they've come in different forms. I think that some of them are related for example i've had the challenge of simply just not having enough money i come from a family that wasn't you know grew up in oklahoma it was wonderful my of the most loving parents we didn't really have the kind of money where you could go out and buy an amazing instrument or a lot of the things that people in the position of a soloist or pursuing a musical career might have so there were definitely times especially

Starting point is 00:20:31 when I was before I got my Seattle Symphony job and even after I left it a little bit where I would I would go to the grocery store and get like whatever food had the most calories per because that was how I could get by. I just didn't have any money. And I was very used to that whole, like being charged for not having money thing that banks do. And trying to, in those moments,

Starting point is 00:21:00 stay optimistic about my chances. You know, I didn't always have, like I said before, I didn't always have the connections that network. I had people that believed in me but most of the people that believed in me weren't like the connected people that could help elevate what I was doing so staying focused on being prepared for those opportunities and finding ways to make opportunities was very difficult and you know I don't know the thing that I the thing that I learned was really just to and I don't know if this works for everybody

Starting point is 00:21:41 was really just to think about why does what I do matter and how much I believed in it and what else I could do that I would feel mattered and really think deeply about that. And I would find the strength when I would find some sort of personal breakthrough. I would also find the strength to feel like, hey, this is something that someone else can also benefit from. If it's just for me, then i should do something else like whatever i can do and i can do a lot of things i can go get a try to learn about other stuff get a different kind of job but if i really believe in what i'm doing and i feel myself being changed by that in a positive way then i feel like i should share that and that sort of experience trying to find in a sense trying to to marry the objective and the

Starting point is 00:22:37 subjective because i know we all love what we well maybe we don't but i like to think that we all love what we do but trying to figure out how to make those decisions about what to pursue how much to sacrifice for that like the personal sacrifice involved in a musical career is often rather great i think we can all think of things we've given up of opportunities that we've given up outside of music, the money, the personal relationships, there are all sorts of things that you have to really consider. And when you do, and when you find that place of strength and belief in what you do, and then you start connecting to the people around you in a more positive way, and they can build you up and help you when you really believe in what you're doing.

Starting point is 00:23:26 I don't know, that's kind of like a vague thing. I don't know if that helps anyone. But for me, that that's one of the greatest challenges is believing that what I do is worth the sacrifice and that it matters. Oh, that's fantastic. And I really appreciate you sharing this, Joshua, because I feel like so many people, me included, can relate to these obstacles that you mentioned. And I hope it can encourage and inspire them to stay on course and keep going. And, you know, talking about making a difference, I would love to hear about something that I think is so interesting and important. And that's the Popper Project and its most recent iteration, the Popper Challenge. So can you please tell us more about that? Sure. Well, to start with the Popper Project,

Starting point is 00:24:15 David Popper, for those who aren't cellists, because every cellist knows, David Popper wrote 40 etudes, which are kind of like, I don't know, maybe there's the Bible of cello studying. But if you're not a cellist, you might not know them because we don't really perform them. They're not like the piano ones that are really concert pieces that are kind of also etudes. They're really truly etudes. So these 40 etudes are things that cellists kind of suffer with in silence. we practice them and we play them on our lessons and that's pretty much it and so when I left the Seattle Symphony in 2008 I was I'd had a brief period of time where this was true before but for the first time I was looking ahead at my life I was striking out on my solo career

Starting point is 00:25:05 and I was looking out ahead in my life and seeing that there was no future where I had weekly checkups and I had never really thought of this before but most of the time up until that point I'd had like a lesson every week or a studio class or both or with the orchestra concerts with new rep so there was this sense of regularity there's a sense of this regularity around my practicing and weekly goals not just big general vague goals like hey I'm gonna get better at the cello and when I play something sad everyone will cry like great but the weekly goals that I could work on, that was gone. And I had struggled with how to practice when I was the only person who is paying attention to whether or not I was progressing each week.

Starting point is 00:25:55 So I challenged myself to start posting proper etudes. So all 40 etudes, initially, I was doing them once every week. And I fell out of that once I actually got concerts going and got sick at the same time, whatever. I didn't stick to the weekly schedule, but it was really a thing that I was doing to help myself practice for a weekly goal so that my practicing would be organized, not just around concerts, but around progress in my playing and that I would have an accountability measure in there. And that was the posting online part that if I posted these online, I knew that I would hold myself at least to some basic standard because I wasn't going to put videos where I sounded really bad online I did not realize how popular it would be and I did not know what to do with the

Starting point is 00:26:45 popularity of the popper project it was I don't know how many views it has now like a couple months ago I checked and the set of 40 etudes has over 1.2 million views wow which is just you know for etudes mind-boggling so I again I didn't really know what to do with it when it was happening. I'd really just started it because I needed to practice better. And I was glad that other people were finding benefit from it. And I did encourage people to check it out once I realized it was helpful. And I thought a lot about how we cellists had never really come together around proper etudes, as far as I could tell. And I think that that's a large part of why it attracted as much attention as it did. When the 10th anniversary, which is actually in March

Starting point is 00:27:36 2019, like just a few weeks ago, when the 10th anniversary of my first post, Poperated number one, started coming up, which I just sort of noticed incidentally, I thought, hey, I should actually really think more deeply about the attention that this project got and why. So I was thinking about the community of cellists who practice popper etudes alone, and I was thinking about what posting these etudes had done for me, and I decided to create the Popper Challenge. So in 2019, the 10-year anniversary of when I started the Popper Project, I'm challenging all cellists, every cellist, to post videos of themselves playing popper etudes. I'm not challenging everyone to do all 40. That's kind of crazy. Although there are a few people who are taking it on and I'm very happy for them. Like I did it. I'm done. You go ahead. But people are posting popper etudes and I've created forums around the popper challenge on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and Patreon, where this community is sharing the sort of hidden struggles and the hidden stories of progress in the cello. and it's something i think is really beautiful i've had you know the i think the very first video was this girl from oklahoma who posted herself playing and her cats in the video it's

Starting point is 00:29:01 very cute and then i made the second or third video was carter bray the principal cellist of the new york philharmonic and people from other countries have been doing it i do an online master class once a month with people who have posted etudes and we work on them and those videos are also available on the Patreon and we've got more stuff coming up but basically the challenge is to explore what it means to practice because that's what etudes are all about how do we how do we what do we do when we're sitting alone how can we open that up and look just a little closer about what's really making a difference in our playing so that our music can be the most impactful yeah and there's such an important part of

Starting point is 00:29:46 our evolution and it's so hard to convince most students of that fact you know you don't have to convince me but like for those who are still not believers can you expand a little bit more on what you think the benefits of practicing etudes are like why do we need to practice etudes at all absolutely and this is something that it's sort of the subtext of the popper challenge and as the year progresses we'll come more and more to the fore i think uh it's not just about playing these etudes well like whatever you learn some techniques that's important i think overall when you're like the the great thing about etudes when you're doing them right they help you figure out how to practice when you're playing scales when you're playing exercises chevchik uh charny

Starting point is 00:30:37 for pianists whatever you're playing you are building your technique when you're working on a piece that you have to perform hopefully what you're doing is not as much about technique hopefully what you're doing is about the music and you're preparing for a performance you're practicing being in the moment you're practicing execution and execution is not just technique it shouldn't have that's not the point execution is about bringing the music to life and there's something in between and for me that's etudes etudes are where you practice how do i take a technique that i've been working on a physical thing and connect it to a musical idea so that when it happens i'm not thinking about the technique the technique becomes secondary it

Starting point is 00:31:29 becomes a part of the expression which itself is a more pure musical character or idea or phrase and if you use etudes as the place where you can practice how you practice then when you're practicing Dvorak concerto or Tchaikovsky piano concerto or whatever you're practicing you can spend more time focusing on the music and I think you enjoy practicing better and then ultimately, when you get on stage, you have built the habit of being present and musical rather than the habit of being worried about technique and fearful of making mistakes. That's so greatly put. I love that, that they teach us to practice. It's so true. And it's like you said at the beginning, you know, sometimes we see them as just something you need to get through and something

Starting point is 00:32:21 the teacher assigns but it really is a means to an end and the end is this expression all of those emotions that we want to embody on our instruments and once on stage one thing i love about this project and this challenge is what you were referring to earlier is this shared experience in this community i i think that's fantastic i think it's pretty easy when you spend a lot of time alone in a room practicing to forget that you're not alone and that a lot of the questions and experiences that you have are things that other people have gone through and may even be going through right that very moment. And I truly believe that the saying that a rising tide lifts all boats is true. So the more we can share what's helping us, the more we help each other,

Starting point is 00:33:11 the better it is for all of us yes have some of the participants shared some of the benefits that they've uh enjoyed from participating a little bit yes ever since i started posting videos for the popper project what has moved and surprised me the most has been the flood that to this day of notes from people that i know and that i don't know thanking me for posting those etudes and the encouragement that it's given them to continue the gratitude moves me so much and i want to to expand on that and learn what lessons are being learned and how those can be shared with other people and that has happened a little bit i think that the so far the the thing that was the most like, oh, moment for me. There's this guy in Ireland, this cellist who

Starting point is 00:34:08 started learning the cello online in his mid-30s a few years ago. And so he was in the online masterclass that I did. It was the February class sometime in early March. And he played a proper etude for us in the online masterclass. And it was the first time he had ever played the cello for people live previous to that he had posted a few videos but this was his first time in real time performing for people even though it was online it was such a big moment and so incredibly moving for him to have the bravery to do that and he did so well it was it was really it was really exciting that's exceptional again shared experience right And like you mentioned, you know, this having the accountability and the exercise of setting goals.

Starting point is 00:35:03 Are there some other takeaways that are very meaningful for you in regards to your own playing from participating in this challenge? Yes, there were so many lessons that I learned when I did the proper project, when I posted all 40 of those etudes. It's hard to remember all. Some of them, I think I just absorbed and forgot where they came from. And some of them, of course, were reminders of things, as often happens. They're reminders of things I'd heard from teachers before. But the thing that was fascinating that I do remember was how the recording process started being a very helpful tool in my playing. And I remember the first time I started really thinking about the difference that it made, I would hit record and give myself a time limit. I would say 30 minutes, I can play this etude over as many times as I want. I can't do any editing. I'll just, I never, I never did any editing. I don't know how, first of all, but I don't, especially with video, I don't know how I would have done that. So it was I had to have a good take. And so I would give myself a 30 minute time limit and I would play it over and over again. And as soon as I figured out that I had to not care in the moment, I had to not care about how I was playing and I had to really focus on the musical line. It became this sort of intense 30 minute game. And almost without fail, I started to notice that I would always choose the take where when I had been playing, I had been the most focused on the phrase and not thought about messing up, not thought about my fingers, not thought about lunch, you know, whatever, where I'd been the most present. that was the take that was also the most in tune where the technique was coming through. And I wasn't even thinking about it. And that to me was an interesting discovery. And so I really started

Starting point is 00:36:59 to think about that in terms of a little bit of gamification of like, how, how can I see the results of what I put my focus in? And I learned a lot from that. That's fantastic. And you were just talking about the benefits of recording yourself, but can you lift the curtain for us a little bit more on what that process is for you in the practice room? How do you maximize results? Absolutely. I used to be one of those that just sort of counted how long I practiced. And of course I've measured that I got better, but I didn't necessarily walk into the practice room with a specific goal. And that is the number one thing that has changed my practicing for the better is walking into the practice room, not just with a vague, Hey, I'm going to get better at the

Starting point is 00:37:47 cello because I'm going to practice, but instead saying, I need to work on such and such today, whether it's a passage, whether it's a concept like what I'm thinking about while I'm playing, or whether it's I've noticed that my elbow is not moving in the way that it should, that there's a goal and a measured, a desirable outcome that I can look back on at the end of practice session and say hey i've made progress towards that or not and that's not to say that the progress is always immediate or that it sticks right away but no longer am i practicing for eight hours and most of the time just sort of moving my arms and going through things uh i think that focus practice is so much better the you know it's it's something that we have less than we

Starting point is 00:38:39 spend so much time consuming that it doesn't it doesn't breed in us the like the desire or the instinct to account for our time and time is the the biggest resource that you have it's the best resource that you have it's the it's also the most precious and so understanding your time and using your time even if it's for exploration make it purposeful purposeful so that's a great word for that joshua it's hard for me to stop here because we focus mostly on the cello and there are so much more about you so i really hope that the listeners will find you online and explore the other facets of your career because there are many as i mentioned earlier you compose you curate you have ted talks and so many more wonderful projects that you partake in but how about a round of rapid

Starting point is 00:39:37 fire questions before i let you go sure let's do it so we've talked a little bit about building a dream career but you know for for people who look at everything that you do and want to do something that resemble that can you talk to us about a little bit about what your life looks like uh life is life is life is messy life is beautiful i think trying to just think about what you care about the most in life and the people that you care about the most in life and organizing, organizing it around that. Don't let yourself get caught. I try not to let myself get caught spending a lot of time doing things that I just don't care about. But the people and the impact, those that you love, as long as that is in the center, I think the mess sort of sorts itself out

Starting point is 00:40:28 and becomes a beautiful representation of you well put what skills do you think young musicians studying today should acquire in addition to learning to play their instruments i think that the skill of communication is something that is really sort of sorely lacking right now when i listen to interviews of musicians from the 60s every single one of them sounds more more intelligent than the most intelligent people that you think of today. Even the Beatles, they were the rebels. But if you listen to the interviews of people who really thought about what they were saying,

Starting point is 00:41:14 even if they were being controversial or causing trouble, they were so articulate. And I think that that's half the battle. You have to be able to talk about what you're doing, which means that you have to be able to think about what you're doing so thinking about communication how you present to people so that you can be most effective and that they will actually see you is very important is there a performance that has stayed with you throughout the years and why

Starting point is 00:41:42 there are a few the you know the first time i played in carnegie hall um just it was a big moment it was for the youtube symphony i was playing solo bach and just sort of looking myself in the mirror the sound in there is unbelievable especially for solo cello looking myself in the mirror beforehand with all the attention sort of swirling around the event all the big names and big companies and just looking in the mirror and get cutting through all of that and saying hey people love music they don't love music because it's a contest they love music because it moves them I'm here because I love music I'm gonna think about what I love about this piece and do my best to communicate that and not worry about anything else the opportunity the pressure the the idea

Starting point is 00:42:43 that I could make a mistake I'm just gonna think about what I love about the music and the sort of thing we always sort of think of try to think about but in those moments to be able to center and say that I've carried that with me for a long time that's beautiful how about a favorite tool in the practice room airplane mode that's a really good one that's it airplane mode put your phone in airplane mode that's it just do it I mean there are many tools but that is where it starts airplane mode. You are practicing. Give yourself the attention you deserve. Do you have a favorite book that you would recommend to our listeners? Oh man, books. I'm reading two right now that I would not recommend and I'm considering putting down. Yeah, I really loved, oh, sorry, I had it.

Starting point is 00:43:40 I had it and I didn't write it down. I should have written down. It's about the inner game of tennis. I would recommend the inner game of tennis. The inner game of tennis is a beautiful book about basically the psychology of performance. And it's not everything about passion, but it's a lot about how you organize your thoughts and it's applicable to so many things, especially music. So the inner game of tennis. A good one. What is a piece of advice that was given to you that you would like to pass on to the listeners? Well, I think I hear from a lot of people, different versions of follow your passion. And I think that that's, you really have to think about what that means. And I think for me, what that means is not that whatever you're totally in love with at the moment is

Starting point is 00:44:29 what you should do. I think what that means is you have to really think about what you want to give in life, what you're most passionate about giving, what you have the energy to do and build around that, you know, 10 years later, 20 years later, set yourself up so that you can still find joy and passion in what you do. And if you're doing something where you don't find that, if you're just burnt out, you can take a break. But if it's because you don't really, your life is about something else and it's misaligned, then maybe you need to think, find something that you care about enough that you're willing to make sacrifices for it and be happy. That's a great advice. And Joshua, do you have a quick actionable tip that

Starting point is 00:45:20 the listeners could implement today in their musical lives? Yes, I would challenge everyone listening to treat their own time as valuable, to minimize distractions when you're doing what you're focused on and to set yourself up for success by planning your time. That doesn't mean that you have to do it exactly how you set, but we don't want to waste other people's time. Why would you waste your own? So treat yourself with your own time with the respect that you deserve. And airplane mode. Yeah, that's part of it. Absolutely. Minimize distractions, airplane mode all the way. Joshua, what do the months ahead look like for you? The months ahead have a beautiful mix of concertos. I'm playing my favorite 20th century

Starting point is 00:46:06 concerto by Ludislavski in Jacksonville and a beautiful concerto by my friend Mason Bates actually this weekend and a few other concerto performances, some chamber music. I'll be in spoleto again in charleston spoleto usa and then this summer is usually and this year is no exception a mix of chamber music in really beautiful places and sort of catching up and planning for next season and of course lots of things online on my patreon account where i'm creating tracks and sharing them and lots of content and social media where i'm posting silly photos and other stuff more than that but and where can people find you i'll put all of this in the show notes you've mentioned your patreon account can you give us uh the name of your

Starting point is 00:47:01 handles yes so on patreon i'm joshua roman and you can also find that by going to joshuaroman.com slash patron or joshuaroman.com slash patreon that's p-a-t-r-e-o-n that'll take you to that page. On Facebook and Instagram, you can find me at Joshua Roman Cello. And on Twitter, I'm Joshua underscore Cello. I really hope that the listeners will pop on the internet and check you out. Are there any final thoughts before we come to a close on this conversation? Well, Renee, I want to thank you. I think that it's a very valuable resource. I hope that your listeners check out the other podcast episodes as well of course is checking out my social media and my patreon but not only listen but engage this is you know it's why i'm interested in what

Starting point is 00:47:58 i'm interested right now is how can we engage and not just consume and i think that your your podcast has a lot of very valuable tools for us to use and uh we can go forth and and use music to move people and help people connect with their shared humanity oh joshua thank you so much for that i feel so inspired by our conversation and thank you so much for sharing your passion and your insight with me and my listeners today of course thank you thank you guys so much for listening i hope you enjoyed this chat with cellist joshua roman as i said in the intro find me on social media to let me know what you think about this episode i'm mind over finger on all platforms and join the mind over finger tribe at facebook.com

Starting point is 00:49:02 slash groups slash mindoverfingertribe for more information and discussions on how to take your practice to the next level and enjoy the process. As always, you can find the show notes for this episode and past episodes of the show at mindoverfinger.com. And don't forget to check out Joshua's activities on social media and at joshuaroman.com. Next week, I'll be talking to pianist Jamie Parker about all things mindful practice. Jamie knows a lot about that and you don't want to miss our conversation. And if you would do me a favor, please head over to iTunes to rate and leave a review. It's very much appreciated and it helps other people find out about the show. Again, thank you and à bientôt!

Starting point is 00:49:58 Thank you.

The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 028 Joshua Roman: Working Purposefully & Building a Meaningful Career

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