The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 043 Frank Rosenwein: Vision & Consistency

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to the Mind Over Finger Podcast, episode number 43. Welcome to the Mind Over Finger Podcast, discussions on mindful music making, efficient practice, and building a purposeful career. And now, your host, Dr. Renée Paul Gaultier. Hi, everyone. Welcome to the podcast. Today, I speak with oboist Frank Rosenwein. Frank has been principal oboe of the Cleveland Orchestra since 2005. He made his solo debut with the orchestra in February 2007, and since then, he's performed many times as soloist with the Cleveland Orchestra in several ensembles throughout the U.S. Since 2006, Frank has

Starting point is 00:00:56 served as head of the oboe department at the Cleveland Institute of Music. He also teaches at the Kent Blossom Music Festival, and he's in demand as a guest artist and masterclass clinician in schools all over the world. An avid chamber musician, he spent many summers at the Marlboro Festival and has performed in several chamber music festivals across the country. Born in Evanston, Illinois, Frank holds a Bachelor of Music degree from the Cleveland Institute of Music and a Master of Music degree from the Juilliard School. Prior to coming to Cleveland, he served as Principal Oboe of the San Diego Symphony and San Diego Opera. In this episode, we discuss stepping into the role of principal in the major orchestra,

Starting point is 00:01:39 transitioning from student to professional life, how to keep playing at the highest level consistently, the importance of having a strong vision and cultivating an ever-inquisitive mind, what teaching brings to one's playing and much more. There's a ton of great insight in this conversation and I hope you enjoy. Let's go to the show. Frank Rosenwein, thank you so much for being with us today. It's a real pleasure to be with you. Thanks so much for having me. Frank, you and I met years ago at Music Academy of the West in Santa Barbara, and already then you were a rock star.

Starting point is 00:02:25 And it's been so great to keep track of your career, not only as a performer, but also as a teacher. So I'd love to begin with your musical journey and for the listeners to hear about how you got to where you are today. Well, I grew up in Chicago in Evanston, right near Northwestern, which was kind of a hotbed. it still is of musical activity um and and on a really high level so um so i was able to study with really great teachers my first teacher was robert morgan of the lyric opera and i got to play in all kinds of great ensembles um like the chicago youth symphony and midwest um uh and and and submit other Midwest orchestras. And, um, and I was really, really fortunate that my parents were big classical music, um, lovers, big into the scene. We went to all kinds of concerts all the

Starting point is 00:03:23 time. Um, they played music themselves. So music was always a big part of my life. And, um, I always really enjoyed it. I was really found meaning in it. I was, I played piano, which, you know, uh, was was fun but but never a real vocation for me never never was gonna be was gonna be anything i was gonna be great at um but oboe felt like the right thing for me i started on clarinet early on maybe eighth uh yeah i want to say not eighth grade fourth grade and then oboe i started around fifth grade um and uh and and it was i wouldn't say it was love at first sight because there was i remember a lot of frustration and with the reeds and the you know you get it oh you rent an oboe and it's a it's kind of a terrible thing it's like it doesn't work and none of the key

Starting point is 00:04:20 the keys are sticking and then and so you know so actually i think a lot of um a lot of oboist problems kind of stem from uh this sort of initial uh contact with the oboe which is so frustrating and horrible i mean uh you can barely get a sound out of this thing so so then you have to compensate in all kinds of different ways and it sort of develops all these bad habits but anyway got through that and was able to really start enjoying it and um uh and then i ended up at the uh the institute of music cleveland institute of music where i'm now teaching which is a real a real blessing, a real trip also. And I studied with the late, great John Mack. That was a tremendous, tremendous influence on me. And then I went to Juilliard, where I studied with Alain Duvas,

Starting point is 00:05:15 who was equally as impactful on my life and on my playing and my overall philosophy. And then I was in, uh, I was in San Diego for, uh, for three years, San Diego symphony. They were, uh, they were gracious enough to take, I'd say take pity on me, but they were, they were able to, they were, they were very nice in, in, in taking a, a young, um, sort of inexperienced, really green person and, and showing me the ropes and how to do things and figuring things out. And then, and then, um, I came to Cleveland in 2005. and that's really important what you're talking about because that's actually one thing i wanted

Starting point is 00:05:59 to talk to you about is is being the principal oboe of an orchestra it's already you know it's a big responsibility no matter where you are but at the moment you're the principal oboe of one of the most important orchestras in the u.s cleveland orchestra is what we musicians call the big five and and it's really true how you know you step into a role like this i imagine a pretty steep learning curve right it is it absolutely is i remember thinking my first year um that that it was there was the part of the daunting quality of it was the consistency that the need to be consistently great throughout not only the the performances you know of which there were maybe i mean which there are sometimes four a week we don't usually do five some orchestras do

Starting point is 00:06:52 five performances a week but we we usually do either three or four um but being consistently great through those and but then also uh showing up to to rehearsal um and not having that quality be any different than than what you would want the performances to be so so in that respect um um that was a really difficult um and sort of mind altering kind of transition um uh so so yeah i would have to say in in that respect and then and then also in terms of just getting the rep under your fingers you know i mean you just go through so much so many pieces um and uh and quickly you know so so you got to get these things up to speed you got to know what you're doing. You've got to have a vision for what you're after, even if you've never played the

Starting point is 00:07:48 thing. Right. That's usually one of the biggest thing you mentioned, transition for people going from school to professional life is in school. I mean, I know for a fact, because I've seen you in action, that you were principal oboe before you got your first principal oboe job. But it's the it's what exactly what you're mentioning, the fact that it's week after week, sometimes several programs a week, new repertoire all the time. It's not something we experience in school the same way that we experience in the professional life. Yeah, exactly right. Exactly right. And usually, I think with most things professionally, you just have far fewer rehearsal hours to get things together, whether it's the orchestra world or chamber music or a recital that you're putting

Starting point is 00:08:33 on in school it feels like yeah you have the time you can you can um you can devote a certain percentage of of time to really uncovering these things and and discovering them uh but then feels like the real world just goes way too quick i mean i you know it's it's almost i mean of course you have lots of things going on people have kids and they have lives and you gotta take care of the flooding in your basement so i mean you know things get complicated in terms of just regular life um but but i do i do um you know i think many of us in the in the in who have you know gone on into the profession um feel a little bit nostalgic for the days of let's uncover this piece and let's figure it out and let's let's let's really learn it from the inside and discover

Starting point is 00:09:25 its its potential you know but you do have to do that in a kind of condensed time frame so i think i think it's easy actually for professionals to kind of feel like oh we'll just churn it out you know just crank the next one what's the next piece okay uh got it you know i'm gonna i'm gonna put but and i think you have to come to it with the same kind of freshness the same kind of wide-eyed sense of wonderment about these magnificent pieces you know well what what more can we can we do with it and do you mind going into more of the specifics of what it's like to be the principal oboe of you know a big orchestra like the cleveland orchestra you mentioned having to juggle many things as you know uh maybe a parent a teacher all of these

Starting point is 00:10:17 things that we have to do you guys have to make reeds indeed indeed and that becomes a huge uh factor in the in the in the consistency right so so for obelisks the the um the notion of consistency really does have to do with how well you can get a hang out of of um of making reeds at a high level or if you can't then how do you compensate via your own uh abilities um to sort of cover the fact that the reads aren't great and of course that's that that is part of it you can only i mean a read is a it has its own mind it wants to do its own thing and so uh to a certain extent a lot of it is a mind over matter uh but that's that that would be you know equipment stuff that goes um beyond beyond oboe right everyone has their own certain equipment issues um and and

Starting point is 00:11:17 and and so so mind over matter right like overcoming just saying to yourself look there may be flaws in what i have here um in terms of my setup but uh but the music has to speak through me anyway um so so so pushing through in that way i think is important in terms of the the consistency um and and and also i mean i really think that the that the most important thing is to or maybe there's two most important things i mean one is to take it really seriously that is to say um this is you know to play music on the highest level is is the is the absolute goal is the is there's can be no exception to that um but on the other hand or maybe in addition um the the that that these that these pieces are um that it's not about sort of grinding it out and

Starting point is 00:12:16 making sure that you you know that you succeed um or that you that you somehow have like you know you've done what you're supposed to do it's it's about um it's about making these pieces come alive it's about telling their stories um so keeping a mind as to keeping you in in your mind you know as you're going through the repertoire day in and day out what what are the what are the stories what are the what are the expressions what are the what are the feelings that we're trying to trying to evoke here right like earlier you mentioned vision how do you go about finding this balance between your personal vision and your conductor's vision of a passage or a piece? Yeah, that's a great question. I think in a way this has to do with, I think one can prepare for

Starting point is 00:13:08 this kind of thing one's whole life. That is to say, I think that of course the conductor is in a position of authority and of course you want to follow his or her direction. But at the same time, uh, your own sense of, of, of, of what you're doing and why you're doing it is, is crucial. So I think if, if you can establish that, um, I always think, you know, when you're studying with a teacher, um, the best way to approach it is to feel like that teacher is going to help you, um, with your vision and and furthering your you-ness and of course you're going to take as much as you possibly can of that person but to have in reserve a certain element of skepticism towards what is being tossed your way and skepticism i mean by say but by really um i guess i mean um

Starting point is 00:14:10 um, a certain, um, working through of, of what, of what you're being told, not accepting just, uh, just on the basis of the fact that this person is a great teacher or is a great person or is a great musician, but that, that, that you're really sort of working through whether that is a true thing for you as well. So I think if you can, while going through school and while being in the world, be open and totally accepting of new ideas. And at the same time, having that certain questioning spirit. I think that that really does, in the end, that that's the sort of relationship that you want to have with the conductor. Absolutely. One of the things I try to teach to my students in the model that I use is what I call beginner's mind. And it's exactly

Starting point is 00:15:09 what you're talking about. It's this idea that at all times you want to have this beginner's approach. So beginners are usually very enthusiastic. They want to know more. They want to find out more about whatever thing they're passionate about. And oftentimes it's easy to just go home and try to execute exactly what the teacher told us and become very passive in the vision to use your term you know and I think that it's the idea of always asking yourself what else oh where else could I take this phrase or what else could I try and it's the same in problem solving I find if you're really struggling with a passage I find that students oftentimes they'll work up to a certain point in the studio and then just leave it to the next lesson. They'll

Starting point is 00:16:01 bring the passage in and say, I don't know how to do this. I always want students to ask themselves, what else could I try? How else could I work on this passage? Absolutely. In a way, you know, the teacher-student relationship can be one of sort of hero worship. And it's great in a way, But it also can be dangerous. So I think you're absolutely right. The idea that the teacher can be this pillar, this guidepost. But our best, I think our sort of best way of giving information or of teaching is to make people empowered to feel like, yeah, I can figure this out. absolutely and as you mentioned you teach at the cleveland institute so you know it's a good resume you've got going on what do you feel like teaching brings to you as a performer teaching is just such a tremendous tremendous boon to me um as a person and as a player um i mean i almost sometimes think of teaching as it's almost selfish it's like a selfish endeavor

Starting point is 00:17:18 People talk about passing things down and so forth and so on. And, of course, I mean, I love the idea of passing things down, of giving people my perspective and seeing if that's beneficial to them and so forth and so on. But it's equally as beneficial to me in the sense that it forces me really to evaluate at all times, to be super self-evaluating, which may be linked to self-criticism. But it's a little different in the sense that it, of course, has to do with sort of working through the idea of what do I hold dear? What are my principles? And also the critique of myself being, what could I do better? What are the things that I have neglected in my own playing? Um, and so the idea of sort of teasing these things out of, of drag, drawing them from me, um, is, is super important and it makes the playing, um, I think it advances the playing. I mean it's a weird situation to be – it's still a weird situation for me 20 years out of school to not have a certain person to play for or someone to say, yeah, this is good and this is not so good. So that's always the kind of the sticking point for what happens to an artist after they leave school.

Starting point is 00:19:18 And I think teaching is such a critical component of keeping yourself on the right track, on the track of self-awareness, of self-evaluation, so that you can grow in kind of organic and not crazy ways. you know that's there's a danger there I love that term that you're using self-evaluating and I think it takes us back to thinking like a beginner right it kind of keeps us in check that's it that's it that's it the sense that um that there's more out there the sense that it's that that um that you could be doing something different and and and sometimes that can also be um that can go too far i mean you can go far afield uh just because you're you don't have people telling you no you've gone too far you know um but i think if you can always question yourself as to whether uh this this makes sense in terms of your principles does this make sense

Starting point is 00:20:21 in terms of how um how you want music to go um and then i think then i think um maybe you can you you navigate your course and you know I you mentioned all of this that you're saying is first of all so true but it's makes making me think going back to what we were talking about earlier and you had mentioned consistency and playing at a high level how does that look like for you on a daily basis how do you organize your schedule again you're very busy you have to perform at a high level all the time. Uh, for people who are curious, um, how do you organize your time in terms of making sure you have time to practice, time to be rested, uh, time to make reads? Well, it all gets a little bit condensed. Um, we, uh, and, and, and, um, and now actually

Starting point is 00:21:21 we have um we have two kids so they're pretty young still so it so there's there's there's a lot of sort of competing um there's a lot of competing interests for for time but um but i think the the you know this certain i guess going back to a theme of um of being self-aware right what are the things that are most necessary in order to play at the highest level So I think, you know, for oboists, there's clearly the read thing. So what are the ways in which we can make the read thing as efficient as possible and as sort of as routine as possible? So I do most of my read stuff at night after the kids have gone to bed. And that's my time to sort of figure all that stuff out.

Starting point is 00:22:15 Then once they're up in the morning and sort of off to school, then it's my time to warm up, to get back into this, to feel like I'm connected to the elbow, connected to music, connected to the breath, connected to sound, all this. And then there's rehearsal. And I think anything can be sort of a laboratory for experimentation and for growth. So I think that a 20-minute warm-up is a perfectly legitimate place to really work on things, to get things done, and I think a two-and-a-half-hour rehearsal is also a place to gain knowledge from your other colleagues, but to also work on what you need to work on. If I need to work on, if I feel like today, you know, my articulation just isn't doing what I'm doing. Well, I mean, are there articulated passages in this music that I can sort of use as a way to work on what I need to work on? So I think these kinds of things are necessary, right? Like just sort of appreciating each moment as an opportunity.

Starting point is 00:23:35 That's great advice. you ready for a round of rapid fire question before i let you go let's do it good frank what skills do you think young musicians studying today should acquire in addition to learning to play their instruments um i think uh i think musical um true musical principles i would say um learning what uh what's important to you what are the what are what are some of the um the real basic elements of of music that that need to be there and um um and how can you how can you sort of take a principled approach to looking at every new piece that comes across your stand excellent what's a habit that you have that you think has contributed to your success

Starting point is 00:24:28 um i think the i think it's a mindset i think on the one hand we have to we have to take things extremely seriously and and and for yourself and for the music and for um for humanity these are important things but we also have to at the same time realize that this is we are not dealing with middle east peace we are not dealing with um we are we are we are not dealing with um with uh with sort of nuclear arms we if we make a mistake in a concert you know nobody dies um and people are there to enjoy to be lifted from whatever position they've they've come there uh whatever troubles they've they've come in with um and and and so so to have a kind of a duality in your mind of um of of ultimate seriousness but um the sense that this is this is about joy ultimately this is

Starting point is 00:25:31 about beauty what doubts or resistance have you had to face on this journey oh i think the the the self-doubting is the is the craziest part um i mean obviously we're all we all run into rejection i mean i was i you know if you look at my career it looks like well things just fell into place. And so you landed in the best place you could possibly land it. It's true that I do feel so, so lucky for where I've ended up, but this was not a, um, uh, this was not preordained. Um, I took plenty, plenty auditions where I didn't get anywhere. Um, and, uh, and, uh, you know, but, but I think that's even a lesser issue than, than the self doubt than the feeling like, um, The feeling of paralyzation, you know, that like, well, I was doing this and it didn't work.

Starting point is 00:26:26 And now what should I, should I do something totally different? So these are the hard, hard, hard questions, especially in that kind of interim period where you're leaving school and you're just joining the workforce as it were. So I think the self-criticism is the kind of the crucial element which we need. to grow but at the same time we can't let it and do you have a way to handle that well you know it it's it's an interesting thing i mean i think following your own sense of what is really right is is ultimately is ultimately the the the path forward um but you know i had moments of real aha in my journey from say San Diego to Cleveland where it felt like I really figured out how to how to do this audition thing and it wasn't so much a kind of total change from

Starting point is 00:27:34 what I'd been doing but but uh but like an enhancement of what I'd already been doing Sometimes people are too, sometimes what people think they're doing and what is actually coming out are two different things. So maybe reconciling those two things. Am I doing too little? And maybe that's why, you know, too little in terms of expression, too little in terms of range, too little in terms of whatever. Or, on the contrary, am I doing too many things? Am I sort of overly layering on top of this music? You know, you're making me think that we kind of learn about ourselves.

Starting point is 00:28:13 It's one way to overcome self-doubt is to learn more about ourselves and then tweak and keep growing. That's a great way to put it. Yeah, I think that's right. What's your favorite tool in the practice room? I think my favorite tool is to shake things up. I think in some ways routine is our enemy. and, um, and the more we can think of things to do freshly, um, I think the better off we, we are in the, in the practice room. How about a favorite book that you would recommend?

Starting point is 00:28:53 Aha, a music book. You know, um, I think the best, the best, uh, music books. And I, you know, I have to say I haven't read too many on, you know, on the sort of the particulars of performance and so forth and so on. But I think the more we can learn about the history of the things that we are, that we're playing, the context of them, the better off we are. So I'm reading a Beethoven book by, uh, Gene Swofford and, um, you know, the, um, the, uh, I think the, yeah, the, the, the more we can sort of get our, get, get our link, our playing with the lives of the composers and their, and their, um, and, and their time period, the better off we are. And Frank, how about a quick, actionable tip that listeners can implement today in their musical lives? Try to enjoy more than critique. That's a really good one. You know what?

Starting point is 00:30:05 Because it makes us listen in a different way. Yeah. I mean, that's what the audience is doing, right? I mean, the audience is not there to look at you askance when you do something that they think is... I don't know. No one comes to a concert to critique. They're just there for inspiration. very good point what does the 1920 season looks like for you oh it's great we have some uh some

Starting point is 00:30:29 wonderful um some wonderful concerts we're doing um berg's lulu this year and we're accompanying that with a kind of festival of degenerate art uh degenerate in the sense that it was banned by the nazis and so forth um so that should be a really interesting little little little festival and um we do we do tend to do a lot of uh opera here in cleveland but um but we've never done baird so i'm i'm extremely excited about that sounds fantastic frank thank you so much for being with us today and for sharing your story and your wisdom and i feel really inspired now to go practice and shake things up it was a great great pleasure i'm so so happy to have been with you thank you guys so much for listening i hope you enjoyed this chat

Starting point is 00:31:31 with frank rose and wine i thought that there was so much great insight in this conversation and i especially loved his practice room tool which is to shake things up and use variety as a way to practice better. For me, this is something that I do more and more all the time, and it really has made me enjoy practicing so much more. It keeps it more fun, and because I'm pushing myself to come up with more creative ways to practice, it really makes me absorb the material at a deeper level and helps me, I think, learn it faster. I also love what he mentions earlier in the podcast about continually asking ourselves, what else? My students know that this is one of my favorite questions. It's in the model that I teach, and I think it might be the best way to truly make

Starting point is 00:32:22 progress. And it really ties into another point he made, which I think is super important. And it's to keep that balance between being 100% open-minded to the feedback we receive, and at the same time keep a certain amount of skepticism this is so very very important we need to receive criticism and feedback with open ears and an open mind but we really need to internalize it we need to take it further and really explore what it is for us and how it translates truly in our playing So not to take it at face value, but to really explore and find our own meaning in this feedback. I think it really helps absorbing what is helpful at a much deeper level while filtering what could be potentially harmful to our own voice and authenticity. So I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Frank Rosenwein.

Starting point is 00:33:20 If so, please consider spreading the love and sharing the episode with a friend. And if you'd like to take it one step further, please take a minute to head over to iTunes to rate and leave a positive review. It's very much appreciated. As always, you can find the show notes for this episode and more information about my guests and resources on mindful and deliberate practice at mindoverfinger.com. Let's keep the conversation going. So find me on Instagram or Facebook at Mind Over Finger. and consider joining the Mind Over Finger tribe at facebook.com slash groups slash Mind Over Finger tribe. There you can find inspiration, motivation, and support. And this is where I pop in with live

Starting point is 00:34:08 videos with tips and tricks on how to practice, prepare for auditions, and all of that good stuff. Again, thank you and à bientôt! Thank you.

The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 043 Frank Rosenwein: Vision & Consistency

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