The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 053 Ursula Oppens: Wisdom from a Trailblazer

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to the Mind Over Finger Podcast, episode number 53. Welcome to the Mind Over Finger Podcast, discussions on mindful music making, efficient practice, and building a purposeful career. And now, your host, Dr. Renée Paul Gaultier. Hi, everyone. I hope you're doing wonderfully well. This week, I have the incredible honor of welcoming renowned pianist Ursula Oppens to the show. A legend among American pianists, Ursula is widely admired for both her original and perceptive readings of new music and for her knowing interpretations of the standard repertoire. A prolific and critically acclaimed

Starting point is 00:00:55 recording artist with five Grammy nominations, Ursula has premiered works by such leading composers as John Adams, Luciano Berrio, Elliot Carter, Giancarlo Iagliano, John Harbison, Gheorghe Ligari, Vito Lutoslavsky, Meredith Monk, and Joan Tower. As an orchestral guest soloist, Ursula has performed with virtually all of the world's major orchestras, including New York Phil, Boston Symphony, L.A. Phil, and the orchestras of Chicago, Cleveland, San Francisco, and Milwaukee. Abroad, she's appeared with such ensembles as the Berlin Symphony, Orquestre de la Suisse Romande, the Deutsch Symphony, the Scottish BBC, and the London Philharmonic Orchestras. Ursula is also an avid chamber musician, performing with acclaimed musicians across the world.

Starting point is 00:01:44 A renowned pedagogue, she teaches at the Manus College and is a Distinguished Professor of Music at Brooklyn College and at the CUNY Graduate Center in New York City. Ursula was in Chicago a few weeks ago, performing, speaking, and leading a master class at the Chicago Piano Fest at Roosevelt University, and she was incredibly gracious to take some time in her hectic schedule to sit down with me and answer some questions. I was so inspired by this conversation with Ursula, and I walked away feeling like I had the privilege of spending time and speaking with, as we would say in French, une grande dame. As you'll see, she's an incredibly passionate and wise musician, and her and I covered several topics from the reality of a career in music today to how she approaches learning new repertoire and how she stays focused in a practice room. Ursula is a force of nature, and she's so generous with her insight. I know you'll love this discussion. Let's go to the show.

Starting point is 00:02:56 Ursula Oppens, thank you so much for being on the show today. Well, I'm looking forward to your questions and thinking about all these issues. Ursula, you are recognized for your important contribution to the world of new music but also as someone who is equally at ease with the standard repertoire and you have quite the resume I really invite my listeners who are not familiar with you maybe they play a different instrument to visit your website and watch some of your wonderful videos on YouTube

Starting point is 00:03:28 but for those who are not familiar with you would you please tell us a little bit about your artistic path and how it has unfolded? Well, my parents were both musicians and that's really the essential part of my life. They emigrated from Europe in 1938. They had to leave. And they missed the artistic life of Europe.

Starting point is 00:03:55 And there are many reasons. So I grew up with a full background in classical music. but one day I sort of discovered that you don't have to wish you were still in Europe there are composers right next to you and that's basically how I developed my interest in new music and that's why they both exist my love of pre-existing music

Starting point is 00:04:19 and my interest in people who are writing music today well that's sort of the genesis of it this is great I was reading your biography and I saw no other artist alive today has commissioned and premiered more new works for the piano. Can you talk to us about this process of bringing a new work to life when you pick up the music for the first time?

Starting point is 00:04:45 What does it look like from your perspective to pick it up from, you know, it's a new score in the practice room to bring it on stage? Okay, well, first I'll make a slight correction. I'm sure there are other people who have actually commissioned more pieces. I haven't counted, you know. Well, the main thing is basically to suspend disbelief, in other words, as one does in the theater. Don't assume this piece will be anything like anything you've played before.

Starting point is 00:05:15 Don't try to put it into a mold, you know. I love notation, and I can't quote him exactly, but Charles Warren said something about what he loves about notation is that some of it is defined and some of it really isn't defined like we have no idea how many decibels a forte is and that's a very good point

Starting point is 00:05:40 and so basically I try to start at the upper left corner usually I do things way under tempo until I can play them faster and actually I had a sort of fun little discussion with Jerry Lowenthal the other day and he said I find it hard to learn a piece until I know what it's about

Starting point is 00:06:07 and I said but I find it hard to know what it's about until I've learned it and they're both true we really don't know what it's going to sound like until we can play it So, there's a combination of sort of dutiful and almost mechanical learning with gradually figuring out what it could sound like. But as I say, you can't put it into a pre-existing mold. And that's the fun of it.

Starting point is 00:06:41 I mean, that's, you know, it's a path you've never taken before. And in that sense, it's completely different from learning, let's say, a Beethoven sonata that you've heard all your life. Though, I should say, learning new music has helped me a great deal with learning Beethoven sonatas. That's really interesting. Yes, of course. And, you know, thinking about your career, do you think it's important for young musicians today to maybe have a niche? No. No. I think people should, well, study as much as possible and be open to as much as possible.

Starting point is 00:07:24 And I know people who are doing marketing want their lives to be easy so they can just market. But we want to be artists. and I think in the long run people are much more excited by someone who shows somewhat unexpected interests than someone who is predictable. That makes sense and I loved hearing the story of how for you it seems

Starting point is 00:07:50 to have really unfolded organically very, it came into your life Yes, I mean actually I have a membership card from my father from 1946 for the International Society of Contemporary Music so it isn't as if my parents were not interested I mean actually they were and it's quite so it is even as I get older I find it's even more organic than I thought. How do you think the profession has changed over time? How much life as a pianist you know So how does it differ today from when you were starting out?

Starting point is 00:08:30 Well, everyone keeps moaning that it isn't like the good old days. I mean, there was a time, I imagine, of course, there were always superstars. What we don't really know was what was the life of people who were not Rubinstein or Horowitz or Hoffman. there may have been very lively performing musicians performing and teaching musicians that didn't make the headlines then just as they don't make the headlines now and we don't think that much about it of course in the very old i mean in the 19th century there was an upright piano or an organ in every single middle class house you know you just you know just like today there's a television in every house so that must music must have been extremely widespread

Starting point is 00:09:28 and we're just not quite as aware of it I think there's much more chamber music now I think there is a blending of lines between classical music and improvisation and jazz and rock and you know trying to there are many people who sort of take something from every genre and make their own music so that's quite a new phenomenon though if you go back a hundred years let's say to early 20th century there was hardly any musician who did not improvise they might not have improvised in a different genre but you know Beethoven improvised Liszt improvised you know everyone did so in some way it's a return to the past what's happening now and I think it's here at Roosevelt where we are that there is now an improvisation course is required for pianists

Starting point is 00:10:28 being taught by someone who's an early who is known to be an early music specialist but it isn't only early music improvisation so I think there's a return to the sense that a performer can improvise. A performer can compose. I believe there's going to be a new degree at Manus which combines performing and composition and actually yesterday I said sort of offhand, I think the strict division

Starting point is 00:10:59 is somehow related to the invention of the assembly line, you know and now we're saying, well, we don't really want an assembly line. That goes back also to your question about niche. What I love and what you're saying about the improvisation part of it is that to improvise it's a different sort of skills and and to a certain degree I feel like it brings so much more depth to our playing because it gives us a freedom and an agility on the keyboard or you know the fingerboard to explore not just in terms of improvising but in the repertoire that

Starting point is 00:11:36 we're learning to have that knowledge and this comfort with the instrument to be able to have this freedom right and i know that actually i mean to improvise well you have to practice improvising it isn't that you practice a fixed a to b to c to d but you practice various possibilities and then in real time you can use them but you have actually worked on them so that there's something there yes you know yes and i know this from jazz musicians and also you know someone like Robert Levin, who improvises piano cadences to Mozart Concerti. And speaking of practicing, I'm very curious, what does practicing

Starting point is 00:12:22 look like for you today? Well, I love practicing. That's the key right there. Yeah. I think it is what, in some ways, for other people might be meditation. it is looking at some material and trying there are many levels of learning as we said you know there's the first one where you just go one note after another and for me if the music

Starting point is 00:12:52 is quite abstract maybe the first four or five times I approach it four or five days I feel I've never seen this before but then after a little while it becomes familiar i i know i have seen it before and i begin to be able to predict what comes next and generally i think as a performer you know that mental memory and muscle memory develop together so that in fact your arms and fingers also begin to learn the pattern just as your mind learns to hear it and these come really concurrently and then of course once you basically know a piece or even if it's a piece let's say that you're reviving that you've played

Starting point is 00:13:42 before so you think about how you want it to sound what could be different and again there's an element of improvisation because you want to try different ways of how much retired how loud how you know and i believe very much in memorizing when possible because that's not exactly the same as saying you have to perform by memory but knowing a piece by memory means you really know how it's structured yes and you know that the first time it does this and the second time it does a variation and if you don't any you know these things really help you because then you say i'm going to have fun with this variation or something so um that's a later stage of learning but it's really a fun stage and then of course if you're going to perform by memory

Starting point is 00:14:40 which is terrifying you you really want to have every possible backup in your brain you know and which means if you're really good about it you could write out the harmonic structure that's really the most important thing because if you have the harmonic structure and basically the length of the phrases you could improvise a piece just like the one you're trying to play

Starting point is 00:15:10 I think of that sometimes with variation sets that actually it wouldn't be a disaster if you couldn't remember a variation as long as you could just put in another variation. Yes. What I love about what you just said is how you encourage to memorize this. I might have to extract that little segment and play it to my students all the time because I tell them, even if you don't perform by memory,

Starting point is 00:15:38 try to memorize it because we know it so much better. And I compare the different types of learnings. Of course, we're all different. and some people are more visual or aural or, you know, exactly what you were saying and just maybe writing down the harmonic progression, I compare that to having different sets of spare keys hidden all around the house so that if you have a, you know, if you lose your main key, there's something hidden under a pot somewhere.

Starting point is 00:16:04 So if you have a little memory slip, you have the harmonic progression in your head or you visually remember what it looks like. Exactly. And, I mean, to perform by memory, as I said, it really is, I mean, not for everyone, and we hope that young people have found it. I mean, as we get older, it's a little harder. Yeah, so what are your tips right now to memorize? Well, I play a little bit less by memory than I used to,

Starting point is 00:16:33 but I still find it, and there are times I feel that at one point in the 90s, late 80s, I played Elliot Carter's Night Fantasies by memory several times. And I felt that was a mistake. Because I felt it was so hard to memorize that in order not to fall apart, I really could not enjoy it very much. But that is about, but there are people who play the Boulez second by memory. I think it depends on one's own abilities also. But I wouldn't

Starting point is 00:17:09 And, I mean, as someone who's also a professor in a music school, I would not insist that, you know, pieces of such difficulty be memorized because I think it only would make people not play them. Yeah. But I also think that, yes, it's sort of, it is good to have done the work, even if you don't want to do it in public, you know. You know, I have a question for you, and it might not be great because you said you love practicing.

Starting point is 00:17:38 yeah but as we get busy and we have i was looking at the program here you're performing and you're giving classes and you have talks very busy you sit down with me to give an interview a very busy day and at home you are teaching a lot how does one find the energy to practice at the end of a very busy day well or the beginning well that actually makes a big difference because one sometimes decides well i'll won't start teaching till two in the afternoon and you're very nice and i actually was speaking to someone else i can't remember who and it's a sort of like every minute of the day when i'm not doing something else i'm practicing and it's and i do find that Sometimes I'm very tired and I think I don't have the energy.

Starting point is 00:18:33 But I say, just walk to the piano. And then I'm interested, you know. Of course, the piano, I don't have to tune it before I play. It's there for me. Yes. Although if it's out of tune, you're stuck with it. Yes, that's true. But, and the other reason I love practicing is that if you practice something fairly steadily

Starting point is 00:19:02 day after day, you really feel the improvement. You notice the improvement. It's tangible. Whereas if you practice less than a certain amount, it feels like you're always in the same place. So that's, that makes, if you've done a few days practicing, that makes the next day even more rewarding and enjoyable. Yes, I love that you said that. And even to a certain point, I would say if I take, I have very young children right now.

Starting point is 00:19:30 So if it happens sometimes that I'll take a few days without practicing. And when I come back, I feel like I'm not as good of a person. No, it has nothing to do with being a good person. But you know, the other thing is

Starting point is 00:19:44 children learn so much faster than adults. And when I said playing by memory is terrifying this is the one secret I would want to keep from a child um you know because they shouldn't be terrified they just should feel good about it you know I mean it's only when you reach a certain point it's probably um psychological even that to say that because there could be a way where you say it's no more terrifying than taking a walk right you know it's when we're afraid of this outside judgment yeah yeah and you know how about this um the fact that you know pianists have they always practice so much you know it's kind of

Starting point is 00:20:31 legendary that pianists practice so much how do you go about fostering focus in your practice it might be very good i've done it often to take a short walk before you start practicing and think about what you're going to do I mean not only what you're going to start with but what you really want to do that day and that helps really a lot to just think about it away from the piano and I love walking so that helps

Starting point is 00:21:01 and there's times when I especially if I've practiced a lot where I say I'm actually de-learning the music and I better stop you know if i feel something's going wrong i take a lot of breaks little tiny breaks partially because well if you do something that's physically taxing eventually your muscles get tired i mean i think it's lactic acid that builds up in your muscle and you just have to let it dissipate and you can walk around the room

Starting point is 00:21:39 you can read an article in the newspaper but you just have to and the more intense you are the less you want to take a break so it's hard but you really have to and also taking a break makes you say well time to go to another passage or time to why don't I do this a different way and of course technically

Starting point is 00:22:03 we have many little tricks we use to get our fingers to be able to do what we want them to do or the bow or you know all the things we learned at conservatory you know i mean just for a fast passage dotted rhythm staccato other groups um they're still very useful at any age i agree with you for sure yes how about a round of rapid fire questions i had just have some short questions for you. What's your favorite tool in the practice room and why? A pencil and metronome are essential and a New York Times is helpful. Why is that? Well for those little breaks. Oh yes of course that's very good. For the people who are dreaming of a career that resemble yours can you tell us a little bit about what your life looks like? Well it okay when I was younger

Starting point is 00:23:00 I did some competitions and did well in some of them and actually possibly my favorite organization, Young Concert Artists is still thriving and helping people a great deal

Starting point is 00:23:16 and I think competitions are very good, now this means I tell my students you want to play your best if, I mean sometimes the jury likes you and sometimes the jury doesn't like you and sometimes the jury's divided and there'll some be somebody who really likes you and will seek you out even though you didn't win a prize but the real thing is to basically up the level of your playing yeah and

Starting point is 00:23:45 i think they're they're good so i did some um i also formed was part of a group we formed a chamber music group, a new music group. And I stayed in it for about 10 years. It was called Specula Musicae. And a friend described it as a group of the 15 most neurotic musicians in New York City. And it was really terrible. In some way, there was a lot of, you were early. No, you were late. And now when I coach chamber music, I find it extremely important for people to learn how to talk to each other nicely, you know, and be able, we weren't together. I'm not sure what the problem was. It's much better than you were early. So I did a lot of chamber music. Now, when I was a young musician in New York, which was starting in the late 60s

Starting point is 00:24:46 and 70s and 80s, there were many freelance orchestras. So I played orchestra piano a lot. I, the pianist of the New York Philharmonic, who's Paul Jacobs, and he was kind of a mentor of mine, and I played extra piano with the New York Philharmonic. I also played solo with the New York Philharmonic. So, but the point is I did all of it. There are hardly any freelance orchestras anymore in New York. I, life is much more difficult. You know, it's exceedingly more difficult for young musicians now and I'm not exactly sure what they can do

Starting point is 00:25:31 I mean rents are more and playing opportunities are fewer. Now the other thing is playing opportunities are opening up, not necessarily remunerative ones but there are spaces in Brooklyn that put on concerts that didn't exist 10 years ago. There's spaces that didn't exist one year ago. And there's... I mean, like National Sawdust now

Starting point is 00:25:58 is one of the fanciest places you can play, but it's only about five or six years old. So things are changing all the time. And it's great to be part of change. I think one thing that hasn't changed is that it's very good for a group of musicians to band together if they have a common interest and work together

Starting point is 00:26:24 and I found even with the group Specula Musicae it was much easier let's say to ask people for money or to say we'd love to play knowing that I'm doing it for other people not just that it was for myself but that happens always now composers band together and put on concerts and people i just found out that here in chicago

Starting point is 00:26:53 the place where the eighth blackbird rehearses is also the place where doniente rehearses also the place i mean it's a big warehouse building and they're about innumerable musical groups that work there so they must have done this together and so that is something that has always existed and exists in the future too what is something that you think young musicians today should develop you were talking how more exceedingly difficult it is now flexibility you know the you see people love music so it isn't as if um music would ever die in a sense you just have to find new ways of connecting it with people

Starting point is 00:27:49 i think now in this day of so much internet dating and facebook there is a real advantage to going to a concert where there are other human beings in the flesh and that's something that is very special to the live arts. And I think that's going to help them survive and thrive. Really great answer. What's a habit, I love this question, what's a habit that you have that you think has contributed to your success?

Starting point is 00:28:20 I have no idea. I would answer laziness. See, that's why I love this question. You never know where it will take you. meaning that i try to find sometimes the simplest i i think my education was very helpful to me i was an english major and an economics minor in college and that means i can write letters of recommendation and i can read a budget and these are essential these are actually rather important skills for a musician to be able to you know be

Starting point is 00:28:55 organized about finances and to be able to write well so um but I it's sort of funny to say it's much better than having gone to music school although I find it hard to believe that you're a lazy person more efficient I see what you mean you know yeah is there a performance that has stayed with you throughout the years and why that is especially meaningful for you well one of them certainly would be the first performance of The People United Will Never Be Defeated by Frederick Shevsky

Starting point is 00:29:34 which is almost an hour long and as I played it I wasn't sure whether people are going to walk out during it or boo me I really did not know what the audience response was going to be seriously and then they were tremendously excited at the end of the piece but to play a piece and really have no idea of how it will because I didn't think it would be received just politely you know I

Starting point is 00:30:04 thought it it will get a reaction but I didn't know which way the reaction would be and that's a very interesting thing when you when you look at the standard repertoire most people know how they feel about it so you sort of know how they will respond to the piece but that's a very interesting aspect I had never really thought about it that much but premiering new works there's that aspect of not knowing how it will be received this is great yeah though of course if you're playing standard repertory you don't know how it will be I mean first of all you could play a note-perfect performance that's sort of boring, or you could play an exciting performance and think, I've played so many wrong notes, I don't know what to do. You know, so there are all

Starting point is 00:30:54 kinds of, there's a big range, and in that sense, also, probably one's performance will be some, have some aspects of both of these, you know, and, I mean, and you don't know what the listener will find most important. Yeah, yeah. That's the beauty of live performances. Yes. There's so much wisdom in everything that you've told us already,

Starting point is 00:31:20 but what is a piece of advice that was given to you that you would like to pass on to the listeners? Never give up. But feel that the path might turn in various directions. In other words, don't feel you have to go in exactly the same direction all the time. but have the desire to move on. I mean, to move forward.

Starting point is 00:31:47 Oh, this is great. Ursula, do you have a quick actionable tip listeners can implement today in their musical lives? Pay attention. Oh. Especially if you go to a concert, all our minds wander a lot. the more

Starting point is 00:32:09 you can sort of and it's okay if your mind wanders but also try to let it wander in relation to what you're listening to you know that's beautiful I love it I'm so grateful that you took the time

Starting point is 00:32:24 in this very busy day very busy weekend for you and took the time to sit down with me and chat about these very important topics well you asked some wonderful questions and it's great to meet you Thank you so much.

Starting point is 00:32:47 Thank you guys so much for listening. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Ursula Oppens. As I mentioned in the intro, I had such a great time speaking with her and her wisdom resonated in my head for days after our talk. I felt inspired and actually touched hearing how she loves to practice. And I find that's something we need to aspire to, to figure out a way, if we haven't already, to make practice become an activity that we enjoy and look forward to. And the way she approaches it, when she says that she sits down at the piano and becomes interested, is very, very powerful.

Starting point is 00:33:27 I think that's going to be my rally cry for the next few weeks whenever I pick up my instrument. be interested, being curious, exploring, and being eager to discover and try new things. And I encourage you to join me and push yourself to be present, curious, and interested in your practice. And let me know how it feels and how it affects your practice. If you enjoyed the episode, please consider sharing with a friend that you think might benefit from our conversation. And let me know what your favorite takeaways from this episode were by taking a screenshot, sharing on Instagram and tagging me, I'm Mind Over Finger. As always, you can find the show notes for this episode,

Starting point is 00:34:07 more information about Ursula and more resources on mindful and deliberate practice at mindoverfinger.com. You can also join my Facebook tribe at facebook.com slash groups slash mindoverfingertribe where I pop in once a week for live videos answering your questions. And if you're looking for the perfect tool to start applying more mindfulness and patience

Starting point is 00:34:30 in your practice, sign up for my newsletter to get your free guide to a super productive practice using the metronome. You can find that at mindoverfingered.com or click the link in the show notes. This guide is the ideal entry point to help you learn faster and achieve more efficiency in your practice. It's filled with tips and tricks on how to use that wonderful tool better, and it's going to take your practicing and your playing to new heights. Before I sign off, I want to thank Winston Choi, Associate Professor of Piano at Roosevelt University, for facilitating my interview with Ursula Oppens and with another pianistic legend, Jerome Lowenthal. And that discussion is coming next week, so make sure to tune in.

Starting point is 00:35:16 Again, thank you and à bientôt. Thank you.

The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 053 Ursula Oppens: Wisdom from a Trailblazer

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.