The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 059 James Gaffigan: Creating Magic

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to the Mind Over Finger Podcast, episode number 59. Welcome to the Mind Over Finger Podcast, discussions on mindful music making, efficient practice, and building a purposeful career. And now, your host, Dr. Renée Paul Gaultier. Hi, everyone. I hope you're doing great today. I'm really excited to speak with conductor James Gaffigan. James attracts international attention, and he's one of the most outstanding American conductors working today. He is currently the chief conductor of the Luzerner Symphonie Orchestre and principal guest conductor of the Netherlands Radio Philharmonic Orchestra. James is in high demand, working with leading orchestras and opera houses throughout Europe, the United States, and Asia. The 2019-20 season features re-invitations to the Chicago, San Francisco, and Detroit Symphony Orchestra,

Starting point is 00:01:07 Orchestre National de France and Czech Philharmonic as well as debut with Orchestre Symphonique de Montréal Melbourne Symphony and the Swedish Radio Symphony Orchestra This season he also undertakes four major opera productions in the United States including La Serenantola

Starting point is 00:01:23 at the Metropolitan Opera in New York Arnani at the San Francisco Opera Tristan and Isolde at Santa Fe Opera and Don Giovanni at the Lyric Opera here in Chicago where I had the chance to catch him for a short but inspiring conversation before one of our performances. Today, James shares with us his philosophy on collaborating with artists, how he believes trust creates

Starting point is 00:01:47 magic, and his advice to young musicians on how to succeed as an orchestra member. I think you will resonate with James's message, and I hope that you walk away as inspired as I did after speaking with him. Let's go to the show. James Gaffigan, thank you so much for sitting down and speaking with me today. It's my pleasure. My pleasure to be with you. James, you have a very active career. I invite all the listeners to go on your website

Starting point is 00:02:24 and look at all the exciting projects coming up. So many great pieces, so many wonderful orchestras and opera companies. so i again invite them to go and visit the website and try and catch you live wherever you are next but um can you please tell us a little bit about your career in your own words well i think i was lucky to start at a very young age because today now we're given more opportunities as young conductors whereas i think in the past in europe you had to be part of the system of working in an opera house as a pianist and then eventually becoming a conductor but in in my life at the

Starting point is 00:03:04 age of 19 people started paying attention to me and giving me projects to do and whether that was in a university setting or conservatory or summer festival like Aspen or Tanglewood I was lucky to have those opportunities at such a young age and actually having great people around me protecting me from the music industry when I wasn't quite ready to jump in yet. So I've been very fortunate to have great people around me and almost like family taking care of me. That's wonderful. I had James Ennis on the show who was also talking about how he had this mentor who really helped him go through processes that would help him grow, not skipping any steps. So it's very great when one can have that in their career. Yeah, that's true. One thing that us musicians are very curious

Starting point is 00:03:52 about is that process that conductors go through to learn repertoire, rehearse, practice. What does that look like for you when you take a score for the first time? How do you take it from first glance to performance? Yeah, well, I think there's so much that happens from first glance and to performance. The main thing to think about as a conductor is we don't have an instrument to practice with. We can't go into a practice room and work on our craft. We have to be in front of other human beings. So it's the interaction, in my opinion, that's the most important. You can have a genius studying a score and he or she can know everything about that particular score and even feel certain things in the score from a very early age or a very early time in

Starting point is 00:04:38 the study process. But it's not until you're in front of the other human beings that anything comes to life so I think sure the process of learning a score you study the harmony you study the form you predict issues that might arise ensemble issues balance issues but you don't know until you're faced with sound and faced with people so that's the biggest challenge of being a conductor is having that opportunity especially at a young age to be in front of other great musicians and do you have a process that you use to um go through that and refine this when you don't have let's say the opportunity to do this with musicians well i think there's there's one process that takes place behind closed doors and that's the study process that's the preparation

Starting point is 00:05:28 the kind of awareness of the piece of music and awareness of what the composer has left you the information the composer has left you. And you could only make an imaginary plan until you get to be in front of the people. But my process with meeting the orchestra or singers for the first time is hearing what they have to offer first. And that's a big mistake I think many of my young colleagues make is you want to prove to the musicians you know the piece. And that's a very dangerous thing because often the musicians have played this piece more than you've conducted it and they've been doing the job sometimes two times more than you've lived so i think it's essential for a conductor to listen to what the orchestra or ensemble has to offer and then to

Starting point is 00:06:16 start making corrections gradually or making trying to make things cleaner and better and more stylistic and and and have more phrasing you talk about this connection with the musicians And for sure, musicians want to be inspired by a conductor, but I think it goes both ways, too. Completely. I mean, you you learn so much when you when you hear something for the first time. I mean, I I'd be lying if I said I came in with a plan and I stuck to that plan every time because or at all, because often when you get to a great orchestra like the Chicago Symphony or the Cleveland Orchestra or or, you know, Munich Philharmonic, you run through a Mahler symphony and you hear things that you never imagined before some good some not so good some things you agree with some things you think wow I've never thought

Starting point is 00:07:08 of it that way so you need to leave yourself open to that and and then be inspired by these incredible humans in front of you you know there's so many instructions that we get from teachers from colleagues we discuss amongst ourselves but in order to become better orchestra musicians or what makes a good orchestra musician from your standpoint what do you like to see in the musician that is in front of you what would you say to a young musician who's studying to become a professional something that would maybe help them become a better orchestra musician well i would say technique of course is something we all think about and work at and that's obvious it's an obvious trait to have good technique and good preparation but the thing that really separates

Starting point is 00:07:56 the great from the average are the listeners listening skills orchestra is chamber music on a very high level it's a massive chamber music and so many moving parts and pieces so i'd say the most yeah the most valuable thing is that you you're listening and adjusting to the colleagues around you whether that means as a violinist blending with a section playing in the same part of the bow being aware of the bass and celli group and what they're playing underneath you where the foundation is um this all has to do with awareness i say listening but it's it's more like i always say to young youth orchestra members it's like having your antennas up and really feeling out the situation in the moment because you could follow the conductor all you want it's that's

Starting point is 00:08:43 not music that's uh follow the leader and that's not what music is about and i think the conductor has a lot to offer um but it's not just about them it's about hearing the sound in the room and fitting into that sound those are really really good points and so much of it comes with experience too yeah of course and i mean you can you can try to explain this to a 16 year old violinist but it's not until they're sitting in an orchestra and they feel what you're talking about But it's like, for example, I always talk about leading from the back of the section. And that scientifically means a couple of things. But most importantly, being more engaged.

Starting point is 00:09:26 Because the further back, the more removed you are from the front of the ensemble. And that's where the quintet is. That's where all the front strings are. And that's where the conductor is dealing with many things. And you want to be with them in the front. But the fact is, to be with them, you need to be a bit more active and more engaged, because naturally, the further you are away, it becomes late. The sound becomes late. You're reacting scientifically to something that's already happened. So you need to anticipate in a way. And for me as a conductor, I stare at the back of the sections.

Starting point is 00:09:59 that's where I find the best musical inspiration is to look and get them involved because if they feel like we're far away, no one cares about us that's absurd because the sound comes from the back of string sections and that's the way music should be designed it shouldn't be the leader playing first and everyone behind the leader um i always the concertmaster's job is to inspire for them to play more if then he or she will play more less he or she will play the softest in the front because then the balanced sound will come

Starting point is 00:10:37 from behind i've never thought about it this way before but it's a little bit like surfing you know oh yeah yeah well yeah where it comes from yeah and also it's like well i always make the comparison And if you're going to join, if something's going on and you're going to join in, it's like if you've ever learned how to ski and you grab that rope. And if you're not moving into the rope, you'll fall, you'll slip. But you have to, even before you play, feel the momentum of what's happening around you. I think it was one of my teachers that said the conductor is the confirmation of what you already know. so we should be in in a way what you were saying is so true because as you move further back you there's a tendency to sometimes become a little bit more passive yeah and then it's when you stay

Starting point is 00:11:26 active of course counting properly and making sure you do what's on the score hopefully you wrote down what the conductor said um but you want to take ownership of what you're doing and look at the conductor as a confirmation of what you already know absolutely yeah and of course be open-minded if he or she is inclined to take a little liberty at times yeah absolutely yeah and i think when you talk about liberty the liberty needs to make sense and i think that's something when someone wants to take time for the sake of taking time that's not a good enough excuse in my book i think if a conductor or soloist takes time there needs to be very good harmonic reason or a musical reason in general for why that time is being taken

Starting point is 00:12:08 Mm hmm. James, one thing that I really took notice from your online presence, as well as from your website, is your deep respect for musicians and how I think you even talk about allowing soloists to project their own artistic stamp on the performance and accommodating their vision. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Well, yeah, I have such admiration for what you guys do. In the end, I don't make sound. And I survive in a world where I'm surrounded by very talented individuals and some budding talented individuals, some very young, wonderful, potential huge soloists or orchestra members. I have deep respect for the amount of hours that you have all put in into your craft.

Starting point is 00:12:56 And it's my job to make your lives as easy as possible when you're in the working environment because it's it could be very bad for many people they show up to work and it becomes a job and only a job and that's the saddest thing for me because we're lucky enough to make music for a profession we might as well enjoy it occasionally so I think my respect for the musicians it's just it's a natural thing and I'm very open to discussion at all times with soloists with a section of an orchestra and i feel when you when the doors open the musical experience becomes bigger somehow and more important and i only think with trust comes all the magic that can happen on stage if you're fighting against someone if you're working

Starting point is 00:13:50 against fear or if the conductor's threatening you or makes a face if you miss a note i mean this is the worst. And I think there's a changing of the guard right now with people like my colleagues who I saw last night, Yannick, I was so happy to see him because he treats musicians with respect, whether it's his orchestra from Montreal or the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra or Berlin Philharmonic. They all get respect and then the musicians feel safe. And I think if you don't feel safe how on earth can you can you play well i love what you said the trust creates magic i think it's really true it is true and i think i think some people say you know with discipline comes something yeah that's that's a given we all need a certain amount of discipline in our lives

Starting point is 00:14:41 but i think the only way to make music with another human being is if you can trust them in that moment you don't have to be friends with them but you have to trust what they're doing i think it creates magic and loyalty as well yeah yeah over time over time and i'm glad you brought yannick because i you know was just discussing him with a few colleagues and that's what i was talking about experiencing when i played with him in the past where it's um and actually i've played with you in the past and i i think i felt the same way where you're talking this trust where you're treated with respect it makes you want to give out your best of course yeah and then you become a better musician yeah and you feel safe on the stage and that's the only way you should

Starting point is 00:15:24 feel on stage you shouldn't feel vulnerable i mean these singers that i work with they're they're so vulnerable they're up there they're naked there's there's no instrument for them to hide behind their instrument is their voice it's their body so of course it's my job to make them feel better and if if i disagree with them musically i gently guide them in the right direction and usually we come to an amazing agreement i i haven't had a singer a single experience with a musician where it was aggressive uh so far yeah james i don't want to take too much of your time we have a performance very soon i'd like to uh run through a round of rapid fire questions if that's okay with you so for the people who are dreaming of a career that maybe resemble yours can you tell us

Starting point is 00:16:07 a little bit what your life looks like oh my god there's too much travel involved too many hotels sometimes it seems very romantic on paper but it's it's just a lot of traveling a lot of planning far in advance so for example i'm planning three years in advance now which is hard for me to imagine because i don't even know what's happening next week but um it takes a lot of discipline to know what you can and cannot do and i'm still figuring out where my breaking point is because i miss my kids i miss my family um so for me uh it's still a work in progress uh being a conductor could look very romantic but in the end of the day you're surrounded by incredible musicians and you might be in a hotel room alone and you have to learn how

Starting point is 00:16:54 to deal with that so there's beauty about my job and there's also some very loneliness what's a habit that you have that you think contributed to your success um i'm never i'm never satisfied i don't know if that's a habit but it's it's a reoccurring theme in my life i'm never truly satisfied with the end result which bothers some people but it makes me always want to be better and i think um i think that helps me as a person and also being uh being comfortable being alone back to this lonely question i think when a when a human being becomes comfortable with with themselves uh then you become comfortable in public that's a really great answer um we've talked a little bit about the skills that young musicians should

Starting point is 00:17:50 develop to be better orchestra musicians but how about some skills that you think they should the choir also just to become better artists in general well i think the danger with a classical musician especially is you spend a lot of time in a practice room i think there needs to be more chamber music and more improvisatory music making um so just reading through stuff with each other once in a while i think you you could never exaggerate the benefits of doing something like that um this kind of out of nowhere let's get together read some chamber music or uh let me play for you let me play i mean what we do is not just for ourselves it's for other people and so you might as well start practicing at a young age being with other people and many young musicians

Starting point is 00:18:41 they go off to conservatory and they've just been in a practice room their whole lives and that doesn't help with the musical experience you need life experiences heartache happiness sadness depression anxiety love you know whatever all these incredibly strong emotions how could how on earth can you understand schubert um is there a performance granted you do perform a lot there are many many concerts on your schedule but is there one that maybe has stayed with you throughout the years and why well i think there's there's many um but the ones the ones that jump out my i still remember my debut with the cleveland orchestra when i was i think i was 22 years old and it was as if everything was aligned and i remember walking out and feeling very comfortable

Starting point is 00:19:32 they wanted me to be there i wanted to be there and it was a magical experience and that was the beginning of my career um that was one i also remember very vividly my debut with vienna state opera of la boheme and i remember being more nervous than i've ever been in my entire life for this moment and my my boss from the cleveland orchestra franz velzemos was there and over the box looking and as soon as i walked into the pit and i gave the downbeat to la boheme i was in heaven and I knew that opera was something that was going to play a big role in my life those are great memories how about a tool in your practice room or study room a tool is of course hard work very serious work but also taking a break I think this is something

Starting point is 00:20:30 it took me a long time to realize that three hours in an intense three hours doesn't is is not as good as taking 45 minutes a 15 minute break 45 minutes 15 minute break and another 45 minutes i think for me the way that my brain works very very short intense moments and then taking some time to process it um taking a walk having some tea uh calling a friend or just having silence And I think more importantly for me specifically, meditation has played a very crucial role in my life in the last four years. Transcendental meditation is something I've learned and I think it really recharges the batteries in a very real way, even more than sleep. Do you mind expanding on that just a little bit? I'm very curious. yeah yeah it's 20 minutes you do twice a day you learn a little mantra a word a kind of vedic word

Starting point is 00:21:28 that the instructor teaches you when you learn how to do this and you just say this in your mind and eventually that disappears and your thoughts come and they go and the key to meditation is how you process those thoughts and just letting them float away and dig deeper into when there's almost nothing and you'll have good sessions well they never like to refer as good and bad but But you'll have sessions where there's lots of noise and you'll have some sessions when there's no noise or a balance. And I find that when the brain is shut off like that, or some people would argue more connected with the world, you get rid of a lot of the baggage and excess voices in your head or the negativity. And I think it really helps me. I come out of these meditations with a lot of ideas and a lot of clarity.

Starting point is 00:22:21 And I would really suggest this for everyone. Thanks for letting me dig into this a little bit because I strongly believe in meditation as well. And I find that sometimes it's very difficult to convince people to try it. It's very difficult. It was difficult for me. But my wife and I went together and we fell in love with it. And it's changed our lives. It really, really has.

Starting point is 00:22:42 And I see things differently. I could process something tragic in a much quicker way, in a much nicer way than I would have before. I feel like it brings a lot of objectivity. Yeah, completely. I agree. Do you have a favorite book that you would like to recommend to our listeners? Yeah. The one that comes to mind right away is The Invisible Man of Ralph Ellison.

Starting point is 00:23:10 It's maybe the best American novel. i want to check out for sure i like that we have the little uh background music going on what's the best advice that was given to you that you would like to pass on to the listeners oh the best advice that was given to me never take your natural talent for granted um that was given to me by a teacher and he made me feel very guilty for being lazy and when I met him I was a very lazy person and I thought things would just come to me because it sort of worked and what I was doing seemed to please some people but in the end you if you have a gift and and you have something that comes naturally to you cherish that and and and don't

Starting point is 00:24:04 ever take it for granted that's a great one how about a quick actionable tip that listeners could implement today in their practice room um i think something that's really important that most people do is record themselves and listen it's very valuable but i also think it's just as valuable to play for your colleagues as many as possible even if you don't agree with their opinion there's something about getting out there and presenting yourself to another person that is as valuable as recording yourself and listening back i think you deal with nerves that way you deal with criticism that way because criticism can help it could it could hurt in the moment but i think you could take away something from everyone this is great advice

Starting point is 00:25:00 anything else that you would like to share with our listeners no it's just been a pleasure to speak with you and thank you for all the nice questions thank you so much thank you pleasure thank you guys so much for listening i hope you enjoyed this conversation with conductor james gaffigan visit jamesgaffigan.com for more information about james his career and his upcoming performances. I really loved his approach to collaborating with artists, and I think he's 100% right that magic happens when you have this open-minded attitude and this trust in the people you're working with. And that's something for all of us to keep in mind when we're approaching our next collaboration, to make sure we leave that space for our colleagues to explore ideas and to

Starting point is 00:25:57 express themselves, and that we have to be listening, paying attention, and flexible in our approach. If you relate to this conversation, please let James and I know by getting in touch with us, and let's keep this discussion going. Of course, I'll have all the information to contact us and more details about James and his career in the show notes. And speaking of which, I would like to invite you to visit mindoverfinger.com to find the show notes, more information about mindful and efficient practice and performance preparation, and to sign up for my newsletter to be the first to know about special trainings on practicing that are coming up this spring and to receive your free guide to a super productive practice using the metronome.

Starting point is 00:26:43 Also make sure to visit my resources page at mindoverfinger.com slash resources, where I've put links to all my favorite tools and the books mentioned by my guests here on the podcast. Finally, just a few words about the Mind Over Finger tribe. This is my private Facebook group where I pop in once a week to talk about mindful practice and answer your questions. These days, we're reading The Inner Game of Golf by Tim Galloway.

Starting point is 00:27:09 We're going to study it and apply it in our practice. So get the book and join the tribe at facebook.com slash groups slash mind over finger tribe and let's get in the flow together. And because I like to make things as easy as possible for you guys, I will of course have those links in the show notes. So that's it for today. Again, thank you and à bientôt.

The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 059 James Gaffigan: Creating Magic

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