The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 107 Mimi Zweig: Teaching from the Heart

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to the Mind Over Finger Podcast, episode number 107. Welcome to the Mind Over Finger Podcast, discussions on mindful music making, efficient practice, and building a purposeful career. And now, your host, violinist, teacher, and high performance coach for musicians, Dr. Renée Paul Gaultier. Hi, everyone. Happy September. I hope you're doing amazingly well and that you had a great end of your summer. The last few weeks have been busy and wonderful here. Performances have resumed, the children are back in school, and I had tons of fun leading some Mind Over Finger

Starting point is 00:00:52 programs. In mid-August, I held my brand new workshop, Practicing for Peak Performance, where I shared tons of proven tools to transform your practice and performance preparation, including my signature deep practice model and the feedback has just been awesome. I've also just wrapped up the third round of the Music Mastery Experience, my three-month group coaching program,

Starting point is 00:01:18 and it was truly so special. Such amazing people, so much growth, so many successes, so many wonderful moments together. And if you're curious about any of those, stay tuned for some fun announcements after the interview. Now, I'm so excited, and I can't believe that we're at season four of the Mind Over Finger podcast. It's been such an incredible journey with you so far, and I'm so grateful to all of

Starting point is 00:01:49 you who took the time to send me a note or a DM or commented on social media to tell me that you enjoyed the show. please stay in touch and keep those comments coming. I love hearing from you guys and continue to share the episodes with your friends and colleagues and students and teachers and anyone you think could benefit from the phenomenal wisdom my guests offer to you. And speaking of my guests, I have another lineup of extraordinary musicians for you in 2021 and 2022. Season four is going to be all about helping you create a fulfilling musical experience, whether you're an amateur, a student, a seasoned professional, or an enthusiastic music lover. We're going to cover

Starting point is 00:02:39 everything from how to navigate the road to college, to how to get the most out of your music degree, prepare for auditions, enjoy your orchestra career, what a life as a soloist is like, the chamber music path, having a career as a pedagogue, and being a musician entrepreneur. And we're going to cover all of these topics, in addition to tons of practicing and performance preparation insight, of course, with fantastic musicians. You're going to hear from violinists Rachel Barton Pine, Mimi Zweig, Lori Niles, and Brian Lewis, violist Kim Kashkashian, clarinetist ralph schiano trumpet player tom hooten horn player jennifer montone flutist elizabeth roe trombone player joseph alessi and many more as you can tell we're

Starting point is 00:03:36 gonna have a lot of fun together this season on the mind over finger podcast i also have a bunch of other fun announcements for you from the mind over finger world but i will unveil these to you after the interview because my first guest is simply a legend in the violin pedagogy world and I just can't wait for you to hear a conversation. I could not be more thrilled to start a brand new season with the incredible and world-renowned violin pedagogue Mimi Zweig. Mimi is professor of music in violin at the Indiana University Jacobs School of Music and director of the Indiana University String Academy. She's been a member of the Syracuse Symphony, American Symphony under Leopold Stokowski, and Indianapolis Symphony. She's developed pre-college string programs across

Starting point is 00:04:30 the United States since 1972, and her students have won numerous competitions and perform worldwide. Mimi has given master classes and pedagogy workshops across the globe, and she's the recipient of the 2019 American String Teachers Association Artist Teacher Award. Her innovative and web-based teaching tool, stringpedagogy.com, is highly respected and used worldwide. She's going to talk to us about her pedagogical approach, her thoughts on patience, her philosophy on mistakes, and remember this one, mistakes are simply information. How young musicians can prepare for the path to a professional career, how we can develop healthy and efficient practicing habits and what those habits are, and so much more. Mimi is someone that I have personally

Starting point is 00:05:26 admired for years, and I've learned so much from all the terrific resources she shares so generously. I feel like I say this about each episode, and I'll definitely say it about this one as well. This conversation is jam-packed with amazing information and wisdom, and I hope you enjoy. Let's go to the show. Mimi, it's such a great honor to have you on the show today. As a violin teacher myself, I've been a huge admirer for years, and it's a real treat for me. And before we talk about all things pedagogy, please tell us a little bit about you and your musical journey and how your artistic path has unfolded.

Starting point is 00:06:20 It's a pleasure for me to be here and thank you for inviting me. I have to say it's a long journey because I'm quite old now. I don't know how far back you would like me to go. I began playing the violin when I was eight years old. to us now as violin teachers eight seems like quite an ancient age because we're starting these kids at four and a half five and by the time they're eight they're whizzing around the violin um the reason i think i'm playing the violin is mainly because my father was in love with classical music. He put a huge antenna on top of our house. I was growing up in Davis, California,

Starting point is 00:07:09 which at that time was a little community of 3,000 people and with a little ag school from University of California. The closest classical music station was San Francisco, quite far away in those days because there was no highway connecting the two the two towns I'm giving away my age but he would he put up this huge antenna on our roof and occasionally the wind would blow it down so he would have to climb up and reattach it to the roof but that was how I grew up listening to classical music every waking hour of the day especially Saturday afternoons at one o'clock the Metropolitan Opera would come roaring through the house at very high decibels. So at the age of eight, I was begging

Starting point is 00:08:04 for a piano. My parents could not afford a piano, and they had a friend who had an old violin in the attic. When I think back on it, this violin was a full-size violin. I was eight years old. unless I was quite a giant at the age of eight this violin most likely was way too large for me maybe that's why I'm so comfortable playing the viola these days also just uh Renee as you said you're wanting to play viola you should have had a really big violin in the beginning and then my first violin teacher was uh Winnie Madison who was I think an amateur violinist but loved music and played in some orchestras in that area. Her daughter became quite famous for establishing the Green's restaurant

Starting point is 00:09:01 and writing the Green's cookbook, which is no surprise because I would go to my violin lessons and the house would smell absolutely delicious. So those are my memories of my early childhood. I then studied with a teacher in Sacramento we would take a trip every Saturday to Sacramento where I studied with a teacher who was in the Sacramento Symphony and she was very very good professional teacher and then came back and my family moved to Syracuse New York and I had the great fortune to study with louis krasner who is well known for commissioning the schoenberg

Starting point is 00:09:49 concerto and the bear concerto he was also for many years concert master of the minneapolis orchestra now the minnesota symphony um moving ahead i studied with uh rafael bronstein at the Manhattan School of Music and then with a man who was a protege of Dunas Samuel Kissel and he really was one that got me started on the journey to think about what I was really doing in my approach to the violin which continued with Thaddeus Vronsky who was teaching in Bloomington for many years, off and on, coming from Poland. He's one of Poland's foremost pedagogues. He was invited to Bloomington to teach by Joseph Gingold, who admired his teaching and knew him from being on international competition committees together. I know that Vronsky

Starting point is 00:10:59 formulated my teaching in many ways because he was systematic in his approach to how to take a student of my age and I was in my early 20s or mid-20s when I studied with him and how to correct things that probably for many many years were not correct so that was that was my a quick journey through my journey. And how did you get your starts in teaching? This is a story that I tell quite often. So many people who have heard this story before, you can just go get a coffee and come back whenever in about two or three minutes. One of my first professional jobs was with the chamber orchestra at the North Carolina School of the Arts, the Piedmont chamber orchestra. It was not a full-time job, which left quite a lot of time to practice and

Starting point is 00:12:05 do other things. My now ex-husband, Jerry Horner, who actually passed away a couple years ago, he said to me, Mimi, why don't you go watch Nancy Cradle teach kids? Nancy Cradle had just been hired by the North Carolina School of the Arts to set up a program in the schools. She had just received her doctorate from University of Illinois, studying with Paul Rowland. This was a long time ago, in 1971, 1972, when Paul Rowland had recently finished his project, his string teaching project. I said to my then-husband, go watch somebody teach. I don't even like kids. What am I going to go watch these kids for?

Starting point is 00:12:59 And he said, go, go, go. So I went. And by the end of the first day, I think I was more or less smitten. Nancy sent me home with the 14 reel-to-reel movies of Paul Rowland's project, teaching of action and string playing, I just remember bringing these very heavy reel-to-reel films up two flights of stairs with a bell and howl projector, isolating myself in the apartment and watching them over and over and over again for the labor day weekend and the significant thing about them was they answered so many questions that I

Starting point is 00:13:47 had about playing the violin I was playing major repertoire I had played in the American Symphony with Stokowski at this point in the Syracuse Symphony and now in this Piedmont Chamber Orchestra but I had questions how to balance the violin where was it comfortable how to hold the whoa, basic things, how to shift, majorly basic, how to vibrate, et cetera, et cetera. These films were able to answer so many of these questions, and they sent me on my understanding of the physical approach to playing the violin, which has become my mantra over the years. One interesting fact that I love to mention because it makes a complete circle and so many things we do in our life are circular. My very first student, Ingrid Matthews, has just

Starting point is 00:14:47 been appointed the new Baroque professor of violin here at IU at the Jacobs School. This is incredible. I really love how your journey unfolded in such an organic way, led by your curiosity and your interest. Mimi, you so generously share your wisdom with all violin pedagogues on your incredible website, stringpedagogy.com. and you are rightly so recognized worldwide for your pedagogical approach many of your students have gone on to prestigious careers as performers and teachers and i'm certain that those who didn't follow the path of a musical career took your insight and wisdom with them and apply them in all aspects of their lives when i consult your resources i'm always in awe of your kindness and warmth for the students, as well as how precise and simple and effective your guidance is. And I'd love to hear more about this, about your approach and your philosophy.

Starting point is 00:15:58 I think you clearly stated it, that I try to put everything complicated in simplistic, broken down steps because no matter how difficult things are we all know playing the violin is extremely difficult and takes into many different factors but tasks can be broken down into processes that are we are capable of accomplishing at the most simplistic level and i say this often all mistakes occur between two notes and we as teachers need to recognize between which two notes the mistake happens and be able to have the knowledge and the patience to allow the student to correct that mistake and we do this all in the non-judgmental environment which means that mistakes are welcome. Mistakes are neither good nor bad. We are discerning of what we're listening

Starting point is 00:17:10 to. And with many repetitions, we can correct the mistake and it becomes part of our technical and musical experience because it's integrated into everything that we're doing. You're using a lot of my favorite words, nonjudgmental, patience. And I know how patience serves me and serves my students, but I feel like impatience is more of the norm that I see from my students and my clients. Can you speak to that a little bit more? How does patience serve us? It could be that I will have a student come in. Well, I actually shouldn't say it could be. It usually is when I have a new student come to my studio, they're very impatient. They want to get to the end of what they're studying or their performance or their degree or their career

Starting point is 00:18:13 as quickly as possible. It just takes explaining, of course, the nonjudgmental environment in the beginning, then going through the whole process of how do we get there. We take a look at the bow and we understand the basic bow strokes of Martile, Détaché, Rigato. We take a look at the, first of all, I should back up, the physical setup of the body that we're comfortable with, how we balance the instrument how we understand the flexibility in all of our joints the fluidity and then we understand the setup of the left hand and that we can relax each finger after it plays that we know that we can extend back from the fourth finger so we have a left hand setup that is going to work for us. Maybe most important after all of these things are in place, we have

Starting point is 00:19:18 a good understanding of how we shift that we are not jumping from one note to the next, but there is a way that we can get from one note to the next that is 99% foolproof. I love this. I always say that when we get impatient, when we don't trust the process or we don't trust ourselves and we try to take shortcut, we always end up in a dead end. We have to have this trust in the process and trust in ourselves. And I love this approach that you're talking about in terms of seeing mistakes as information. It's so important. Let me just say one thing. Why do the students trust the process. They may be very skeptical in the first lesson, but actually by the end of the first lesson, they are able to see that the information that we are giving them is working

Starting point is 00:20:19 because for the main reason, they sound better. And if they sound better, that's why they're studying with us because they they want to sound beautiful so if we can show them and prove to them that by the end of every lesson something is sounding better something is easier shifting is better the vibrato is working they don't have pains in their body from incorrectly holding their instruments or grabbing their bow that establishes our credibility as teachers and their credibility as well this work so I can I can buy into this process and I'm I can hear that I'm better this is so important thanks for sharing this I think all children should study music for their own enjoyment and for what it brings to them in their development as well as making them

Starting point is 00:21:20 become rounded and creative and imaginative people and not everyone is heading to a professional musical life but for those who are on the journey to a professional career the young musicians dreaming of a career in music what do you think they need in order to be prepared for the demands of a musical degree for example you know environment type of training skills experience i think that that question has to be broken up into different age brackets grateful yes seven-year-old you know they hardly care if they're playing in tune yet and uh as the student as a child matures, they become more demanding of themselves. And usually that happens around the teenage years when actually they're becoming more judgmental of how they sound. So this

Starting point is 00:22:19 non-judgmental environment is really important for them to understand and to keep developing themselves within. I always say that preparation to be or not to be a violinist is the same through high school. Because if in their senior year of high school, a student decides, oh, I want to be a violinist, but they haven't put in the time or the effort or the preparation, there's no way that that is the journey they should choose so if they are thinking that this is what they want to do for their career then they'll be prepared and they'll be prepared to audition for specific teachers specific schools that will prepare them again for the career we know it's a difficult career it's difficult and we i'm always telling my my students you have

Starting point is 00:23:25 to want to do this more than anything else in the world otherwise it's not going to work and in that case you choose something else and you can always be an amateur violinist but you cannot be an amateur doctor. And that's the first step. And then once they choose the path of wanting to be a violinist, there are no guarantees. We know that there are no guarantees, but they have to work to the best of their ability to see where it takes them. And then, of course, we have many choices at the end of our bachelor's degree, end of master's degree, end of doctorate. And they have to be musicians, but they can take different forks in the road. They can get an orchestra position. They could take the route of public school teaching, which I think is incredibly important.

Starting point is 00:24:30 And with my colleague, Brenda Brenner, who has opened so many doors for music education using the philosophies of the String Academy, people can choose to establish private studios. they can go into administration and we know that there is a need for innovative and intelligent well-trained musicians to be our administrators then there there are combinations of all of the above and i think from what you tell me you're a person such as that lifelong learner for sure I love this approach of focusing on the development and not so much what the future path is, but to make sure that at any stage of their musical activities, they get the information, the support that they need to become the best musician that they can be, regardless of whether they want to be a musician. And then as a result, they do end up having a choice. And one of the ways that I think makes it more enjoyable for me to practice and makes me progress is, of course, healthy practicing habits. So in your experience, what are great ways for young musicians to develop healthy and efficient practicing habits?

Starting point is 00:25:59 And you mentioned, you know, seven-year-old musicians. I think it starts, and I'm sure you would agree with me, it starts at that age. But what are some ways that these young musicians can develop these healthy, efficient practicing habits? In the very beginning, if we go to my website, I even list by the end of Twinkle, practicing is simply a matter of repetition. So from the very first lesson, you do cheat together, make a V, take a step, 10 times a day. You do your Statue of Liberty 25 times a day. You practice your first songs, GDG, DAD, AEA, five times a day, et cetera, et cetera. So by the end of Twinkle, we have a list like this of how many repetitions you will make for each task.

Starting point is 00:26:55 practicing is not a matter of putting the sand timer on and turning it around and watch the grains of sand slowly going down to the bottom it's a matter of repetition as we move along what we want to do is isolate the difficulties know how many times we could practice them theoretically in the younger ages of children if we can practice something correctly 10 times in a row then we can go on one of my favorite stories was with Mr. Gingle I would visit him at his lunch hour and sit in his big chair and he would be eating his lunch and he once told me the story of how he practiced the passage in Mendelssohn Concerto, the beginning of the development section,

Starting point is 00:27:56 he said he made himself practice it 25 times in a row correctly and he would keep the tally score. If he made a mistake at the 24th time, he would make himself go back to the first time and do the same repetitions. and he said today he could pick up that concerto and in his sleep he has that passage in his fingers because of all the repetition so yes we know repetition but in the correct way repetition where we're listening not judging ourselves but keeping an awareness of what we're

Starting point is 00:28:37 doing. And then the standard ways of practicing, taking passages, using rhythms, all kinds of rhythms, all kinds of bowings is the most efficient way to practice. We also know that too much practice is pointless. I think more than four hours a day is probably pointless because your brain can't think anymore um and separating practice hours one hour two hours maybe together another hour and another hour and dividing it into segments of we're talking about older students now of etudes scales etudes for a portion and then repertoire and then maybe chamber music if you have it or group pieces if you're in a violin group uh and then mixing those elements around from day to day so you're not always starting with the same thing really well but that's a lot

Starting point is 00:29:43 of golden nuggets right there in those past few minutes thanks for sharing this maybe how about a round of rapid fire questions before i let you go i will try my best what's the habit that you have and that you think contributed to your success? I think it's a passion for teaching and for working with people. I love working with people of all ages. My youngest student now, I think finally turned nine and my oldest coming up now in this coming year

Starting point is 00:30:18 is I think in his mid-thirties coming back to do some study. I love that. Do you have a favorite tool in the practice room? My favorite practice tool myself is to get my violin out of the case, which doesn't happen very often for my own personal practicing. And how about for your students? How about a favorite tool for your students? I think that for them, of course, the series of scales, etudes, that they're going through and they all know that they go through scales and Kreutzer, of course, and before Kreutzer preparing for Kreutzer and before that Wolfhard. And then after that, Fiorillo, Rode, Don't, Op. 35, and then Paganini, and then Wieniawski, Etude Caprices.

Starting point is 00:31:10 So those are engaging. And if the teacher gives the students engaging ways to practice etudes, you can keep them involved. And then picking appropriate repertoire. I I repertoire should always be um uh uh challenging but not so challenging that it's impossible so there's a sequence of repertoire that works for every student where they are in command of their domain very important do you have a favorite book that you would recommend to our listeners uh well let me say this i just read um a promised land of obama the obama's latest book and i was so inspired he it was such an inspiring book how he went through his first book his second

Starting point is 00:32:06 book hasn't come out yet but this first book takes him through his first four years of being president and I always loved him but now I have even more love and respect for him and I'm thinking much wisdom that we can apply in our own journey yes what is a piece of advice that you received and that you would like to pass on to the listeners I think stay to stay positive to always look on the brighter side of things, which this past year, as we all know, was rather difficult. But if we keep that in mind,

Starting point is 00:32:46 we know always that things pass, that even if we're not feeling our best at a certain moment or our students are not feeling their best, things are always going to get better. And we're cyclical. we're like seasons we go in and out that is so true and we can apply this at the micro level and the macro level as well really great advice finally how about a quick actionable tip that the

Starting point is 00:33:20 listeners could implement today in their musical lives uh i think just stay open to um to comments to criticism, to compliments. If we keep an open mind to accepting information, it's much easier to implement it. Very great and impactful advice. Mimi Zweig, as I said at the beginning of the interview, it's a real treat for me to have had this chance to speak with you today your wisdom has profoundly influenced many violinists and pedagogues and musicians from all circuits. And I know that what you shared with us today will be of great value for all the listeners. Thank you so much. And thank you to you for your contribution in your podcast. They're invaluable. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:34:29 Thank you guys so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this chat with violin pedagogue Mimi Zweig. I would love to know what your favorite takeaways from today's conversation were. So get in touch with me. I'm mindoverfinger on both Instagram and Facebook and share your thoughts on those topics. Make sure to check out Mimi's outstanding pedagogy website at stringpedagogy.com. And of course, as always, I'll have this information for you in the show notes. You can find them via your podcast app or by visiting mindoverfinger.com, where you

Starting point is 00:35:07 can also find more information about mindful and efficient practice, performance preparation, and how to work with me. While you're there, sign up for my newsletter and receive your free guide to a highly productive mindful practice using the metronome. And before I let you go, I've been working on a couple of projects, and I'm absolutely thrilled to be able to share them with you today. First, I'm really excited to tell you that Practicing for Peak Performance is now available for download. If you're looking for a process that works and that will allow you to enjoy more efficient practice sessions, gain confidence and perform at your best, check out Practicing for Peak Performance at mindoverfinger.com. When you join Practicing for Peak Performance, you gain lifetime access to all the recorded

Starting point is 00:35:59 content that's over seven hours jam-packed with information, guidance, and effective high-performance systems. You get detailed handouts and worksheets, access to the PPP Facebook group community for support and for answers to all of your questions, and for a limited time, a complimentary private 30-minute coaching session with me. Carmen Peluso has this to say about practicing for peak performance. For a long time, I've had this belief that learning an instrument is difficult and hard work or that it has to be, and there is no other way. Only a few weeks after PPP, I'm starting to feel that change. My everyday practice sessions are now filled with freedom

Starting point is 00:36:45 and ease. And another participant shared this. During PPP, I realized a major shift had happened at some point in my musical history. When I was younger, I frequently accessed the flow state and I was fearless. As I progressed, the pressure to play perfectly became quite overwhelming. And even though I've been able to improve my performing, I haven't been able to access true flow in years. I'm excited that PPP has allowed me to recognize and unpack this on the journey back to fearlessness. Thank you. So if that sounds like the kind of results you'd like to experience, head to mindoverfinger.com right now and access all the tools that will help you transform your practice, gain confidence in your process, and start performing at your best today.

Starting point is 00:37:38 Later this fall, I will also open the door to a brand new exclusive group coaching program, the Music Mastery Circle. This program is like nothing else out there, and I know it's going to be absolutely life-changing. MMC is going to provide you with advanced peak performance systems, powerful life coaching, and career support for amazing results in your career and your life. It's going to be an amazing journey to creating the most fulfilling experience you can dream of. I'll have all the details about the Music Mastery Circle for you in a few weeks, but I'm taking only a small group of motivating musicians with me on this adventure. So if you're intrigued and this sounds like something you'd like to be part of, send me an email at mindoverfinger at gmail.com for more information.

Starting point is 00:38:33 Finally, I want to give a shout out and a big thank you to my sound engineer, Bella Kelly, for making my guests and I sounding great for you. And also a big thank you to Louise Kelly for the new intro. Louise is a great pianist, singer, songwriter, and you can check out her latest album, Two Gardens, streaming everywhere you listen to music. For more information, visit louisekelly.com. So that's it for today. Again, thank you and à bientôt.

The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 107 Mimi Zweig: Teaching from the Heart

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.