The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 110 Kim Kashkashian: Expressive Artistry

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to the Mind Over Finger Podcast, episode number 110. Welcome to the Mind Over Finger Podcast, discussions on mindful music making, efficient practice, and building a purposeful career. And now, your host, violinist, teacher, and high performance coach for musicians, Dr. Renée Paul Gaultier. Hi everyone. I hope this episode finds you happy and thriving. Today, I'm really excited to bring you an artist that I have admired for the longest time, violist Kim Kashkasyan, who's internationally recognized as a unique voice on the viola. Kim was born of Armenian parents in

Starting point is 00:00:51 Michigan, and she studied the viola with Karen Tuttle and legendary violist Walter Trempler at Peabody Conservatory of Music in Baltimore. Since the fall of 2000, she's taught viola and chamber music at the New England Conservatory. In addition to several Grammy Award nominations, Kim's recordings received many awards, including a 2012 Grammy Award in the Best Classical Instrumental Solo category, the Cannes Classical Award in 2001, and the Edison Prize in 1999. She has worked tirelessly to broaden the range of technique, advocacy, and repertoire for the viola, and she's a staunch proponent of contemporary music. Kim is a regular participant at the Verbier, Salzburg, Lockenhaus, Marlborough, and Ravenna festivals. She has a long-standing duo partnership with

Starting point is 00:01:44 pianist Robert Levin and percussionist Robin Chulkovsky, and played in a unique string quartet with Guillaume Crémer, Daniel Phillips, and Yo-Yo Ma. As a soloist, she's appeared with the great orchestras of Berlin, London, Vienna, Milan, New York, and Cleveland, and in recital at the Metropolitan Museum of New York, Kauffman Hall, New England Conservatory's Jordan Hall, as well as in Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, Frankfurt, Berlin, Paris, Athens, and Tokyo.

Starting point is 00:02:15 In our conversation, Kim shares beautiful and extremely powerful thoughts on many important topics such as developing expressivity in music making, the importance of letting go of desires in our work, the importance of listening to ourselves with love, and so much more. It's an information and inspiration-packed episode, and I hope you enjoy and find value in our discussion. Let's go to the show. Kim Kashkashian, it's a great honor to have you on the show.

Starting point is 00:02:59 Thank you. It's a pleasure to be with you. Kim, I've been a huge fan of yours for years, and I'm so excited to have this opportunity to pick your brain on some fun topics. But before we dive into the practice and wisdom portion of our conversation, could you please tell us more about your musical journey and about how your artistic path has unfolded? I would have to say that unfolded is a good choice of words because it certainly wasn't planned. And I think that that is perhaps good advice for young artists or young people of any discipline, that things happen that you cannot plan, and sometimes things happen in the way they're supposed to, even if it goes against your plan. So I started to play the violin

Starting point is 00:03:57 at the age of nine, and that was rather accidental. I was given the chance to play in, to take instrumental music lessons in the public schools in Detroit, Michigan, where I was born. And my parents were not musicians. And their response to my request was, well, of course, you can do anything you want in school as long as you have good grades. And you will play the violin since there's one sitting in your cousin's closet she stopped playing. So that already was chance. The fact that I went to the Interlochen Arts Academy for my gymnasium years, high school years, here we say, was also a bit of chance. But it certainly put me on a path where in the eighth grade, I had to choose between dance and music because I could not major in both subjects

Starting point is 00:04:53 at this arts academy so again I was equally invested in both at that stage in my life and the only advice my mother gave me which continues to be I still think of as very good advice was well you know I don't know which means more to you but a dancer's life is short and a musician's life is long that's all she said so that I won't say that that was chance but it was wisdom that came to me by the good fortune of having a wise mother um I went I chose my conservatory of music partly because I wanted to study with Walter Trampler, but also partly because I was given a complete scholarship. And so our family, who lived in very simple circumstances, decided that that was the only choice I had.

Starting point is 00:05:58 And it continued that way. You know, I went to the Marlborough Music Festival at a young age because my teacher at the time, Karen Tuttle, insisted that I audition even though I thought I was not ready. And the very fact that I was studying with Karen Tuttle was by chance, because Walter Trampler, with whom I had gone to study at Peabody, left the school after one year. And we gained the enormous gift of Karen Tuttle, but none of us knew who she was at the time. so i would say that that kind of um experience um colors my life to this very day the fact that i went to competitions and did very well at them was not because i intended to do well but rather because i intended to um conquer the shaking of my bow and that was the only way i knew to do it

Starting point is 00:07:01 Because at that time in the 80s, violists in this country, the United States, did not have the chance to play solos. The only way I knew was, OK, I'm going to, as we say, from the frying pan into the fire. I was going to just put myself in the worst possible circumstances I could imagine and conquer my problem, my weakness. and well I did very well in those competitions and someone heard me who knew that Gideon Kramer was looking for a violist for his newly founded Lachenhaus festival and suggested that I go there well I didn't know anything about any of that I was completely naive about everything going on in Europe and that changed my life as well yeah when I moved back to the United States after 13 years in Europe, living there and teaching both in Freiburg and in Berlin,

Starting point is 00:08:03 I decided it was time to come home. My daughter was 10 years old and I wanted her to have an American upbringing and education. And we moved back to Boston. And when we moved here, the woman who lived across the street came over as we were moving in. And she said, you know, I'm not going to do what I'm supposed to do and bring you a cake. I'm going to tell you that I'm sitting on my front steps or I'm in my garden. And if you have any questions, just come and ask. So when we had gotten settled, I went across the street and I asked her, where's the library? Where's the nearest grocery store? And do you happen to know of any martial arts studios because both my daughter and i were studying at the time and again the best

Starting point is 00:08:59 possible um lucky circumstance she was studying tai chi with a great master who happens to work maybe a mile and a half from our house so two kilometers from our home and i've been been there ever since working with him so you have to believe in good fortune and you have to believe in chance and that the right thing is happening yes and also i love that you mentioned how you worked at conquering your fears and weaknesses so chance and also preparation um a clear look at yourself i love that way of putting it this is great yeah you try to see who you are without seeing out of your own perceptions your own perceptions are always somewhat skewed if you know the word somewhat twisted by um by your experience by who you are none of us sees clearly

Starting point is 00:10:08 We see through our own eyes. So to try to see as objectively as possible and look at that reflection and see, you know, this is what I need to work on. This is where my weakness is. If I want to do this thing, be a performer, then I need to solve this problem. It's such a great message for musicians. I mean, for all humans, pretty much. I think it's not, yeah, it's not a musical concept. It's perhaps not even a performer's concept, but for any of us walking through life. Yeah, it's a wonderful journey and a great reminder to do as you were saying, which is to stay open to what can unfold. Absolutely. And speaking of this clarity, let's dive into some practice conversation.

Starting point is 00:11:07 I'd love to know what mindful practice is to you. This is maybe a little broad as a question. Let me narrow it down a little bit. What does your process look like in the practice room and how you maximize your results? That's two different questions. True. mindful practice is when you feel that you give your full attention and your full awareness to what you're doing and you know there's an amish saying

Starting point is 00:11:49 that's a religious and cultural group of people here in this country and they say do your work as if you had a thousand hours but also as if you only had that very day so completely intense completely committed and the feeling that this is your last chance to get it right and yet the patience and the time to feel as if you had thousands of hours to get it right And if you keep those two things, let's see, those two attitudes or ways of experiencing time in your mind when you practice, then you usually do a pretty good job of it. Yeah. Well, this is great. And what about the second question then? How about some ways that you maximize your results?

Starting point is 00:12:55 Well, I am a firm believer in the fact that the entire body is involved in producing sound. so if you want to be making full resonance with depth and a layered sound then you must not just be aware of your fingers and what they're doing but also aware of the sound traveling down your spine and out and this relates also to performing in public that that sound is spinning out to the back of the hall and then back to you and that's a very good thing to be practicing the sense that what you are producing in terms of sound and in terms of music and in terms of gesture is actually on a resonance cycle that goes and it should be practiced out maybe across the street you can imagine that your your sound is going far far and then back to

Starting point is 00:14:04 you that's um very important to practice for so many reasons because you want to be aware to that you are speaking to someone at a distance you want to be aware that there's an energy cycle involved and it does also set you up to be more objective in what you're hearing because that question is always there um what what am i sending out yeah not just what am i working on but what am i sending out absolutely and that objectivity you just mentioned is so important. Yes, it's very important that we feel a deep subjective connection and identification with the character of the music, but also at the same time that we are running a, let's say that you have, metaphorically speaking, cutting off one ear, putting it at the back of

Starting point is 00:15:12 the hall and hearing out of that ear as well. So running those two tracks at the same time is something that's very worth practicing. It doesn't happen by itself. You have to practice it. Yes. I'm so glad you're saying this because that was one of the questions I wanted to ask you because one of my favorite things about your playing, I mean, there's so many things I love about your playing but one of my favorites is how incredibly expressive you are and that's one of the questions I get so often from from students from listeners of the podcast and it's how one can develop expressivity in playing and as you were just mentioning it's this art of listening being able to have this objectivity and I love that you just said that it's something that needs

Starting point is 00:16:09 to be practiced? Because at times, some people I feel are a little bit discouraged by the fact that they believe that it's something that if you don't have it, you can't develop it. But if you have some advice in this department, what are some ways that listeners could improve this aspect of their playing, the expressivity? That's a very big question. Let me try to take it piece by piece. First of all, everyone is expressive. It's a question of A, believing in it, B, getting it out. So to believe in your own ability to express is secondary to understanding what you feel, what is your reaction, Where do you sit in relationship to, let's say, the human world when listening to a Schubert song? What does it mean to you?

Starting point is 00:17:29 What do those gestures mean? What do those sonorities mean? What does it do to your insides, to your own gut, to your own heart? And then, if you can define that, then you can figure out how to transmit it from you to the outside world. So first, know what it means to you. Second, figure out how to transmit it. Now, in terms of knowing what it means to you, I can't help. But in terms of transmitting it, there are a lot of beautiful tricks.

Starting point is 00:18:10 And the first is to say to yourself, what if this melody had a text? What if this entire sonata and movement and phrase, break it down, had a text? So if we're working on a Brahms sonata, imagine that that were an opera. And your first question to yourself is, what does the stage look like? The second question is, who is singing? And if your answer is, I don't know, then you ask yourself some specific questions. It's narrowing it down that helps. Is this a male voice, a female voice?

Starting point is 00:19:12 Is this a young voice or an old voice? Is this someone speaking to us out of a condition of wisdom and giving advice? Or is this someone who is speaking out of a condition of longing and wanting something? You start to define these things. And then who is this person speaking to? What might they be wearing? Make a real image for yourself. Personify the music. And then you're very likely to understand the gesture you need to be making, the sonorities that you want, the colors that you want, how it shifts. And where does the second voice come in? Where's the answer? to that first statement. And who is that person? So I find this for myself and for my students an extremely useful exercise in making expression more potent. I love that. It's very efficient. And I love that it encourages to introspection and really

Starting point is 00:20:23 finding the answers, as you said it so beautifully, what it means to us and how to express it subsequently? Well, the exercise that I just spoke about could be considered to be really stupid because you could have multiple emotions and you don't want to have to decide which one. but the point is that if you decide for now for this moment which one you can always change your mind tomorrow yeah so i i once took a class of young visiting chinese students to the museum here in boston they were having a fantastic exhibition of the artwork of someone and showing many different versions of the same subject. So there were four different versions of a beautiful vase

Starting point is 00:21:29 with some fruit next to it. One of them was basically in purple. The other one was basically in orange. One was with a lot of light shining onto it. One was very dusky. And one of the girls came to me afterwards and said, why did he make it look so different and I said

Starting point is 00:21:53 because he saw differently every day and therefore you can do that when you play a Bach suite you don't commit to one solution you commit to one solution on one day

Starting point is 00:22:10 and you give yourself permission to say the next day when you wake up oh you idiot of course it's not purple it's green or anything like that so you're you are making a commitment to the expression of communication yeah you are not making a commitment to a fact that's why the arts are what they are and that's why we are fascinated by them and that's why we can play the same piece for many, many years and never get bored. Yes. It's such a beautiful way of putting it. Thank you for this. Kim, in preparation for this interview, I was looking back at some of your past interviews,

Starting point is 00:23:01 and I came across one that resonated strongly with me from The Strad Magazine back in 2020. and I will link this article in the show notes but in it you talk about tension and playing and you make this distinction between desire and intention and that's something I talk about so much with my clients and the participants in coaching programs that I lead and in the interview you refer to your tai chi teacher whom you just told us about a little bit earlier and here's what you say about this. You say, my Tai Chi teacher told me, you're using too much desire and not enough intention. Thinking that way opens a lot of doors because it gets rid of the personal. Things aren't tied to your feelings in the same way. Can you unwrap this for us, this difference

Starting point is 00:23:57 between intention and desire and how it fits in the context of tension in playing? Because I feel Like, that's a really important topic for all of us, how we usually tend to maybe mix the two. It's related to what we were talking about, running those two tracks. Because you do have to be aware of who you are and where you sit in the universe. And everybody has desires and longings. And it's important to know those. And as an artist, you have the wish to communicate, and that can be very strong. Now, the wish to communicate who you are can sometimes get in the way of the actual communication.

Starting point is 00:24:46 Yes, yes. And so that's another way, maybe a drier way of talking about this subject. But in the context of Tai Chi or Kung Fu, it's very simple. So when you want to reach a target or when you want to block someone who is approaching you, the best thing you can do is to say, I'm going to be there. Not, I have to get there. it's another way of describing it right yes yeah um all of us have the desire to be in the biggest sense of the word loved respected wanted and understood and that desire can block the actual transmission of who you are and what you might want to say.

Starting point is 00:25:59 That's true on the concert stage. It's true in your family life. It's true when you're teaching. You have to also watch out that you're not transmitting your own needs to your students. Right. Yes, that's powerful. Yeah. So it's kind of a universal. It's a way of placing yourself not at the center of the universe. Yes. Something we all need to remind ourselves of from time to time. You know, back when I was a student, Leon Fleischer told me this in a very different way, and it took me years to understand it. But I had played in a master class, Schubert Sonata, and this was back before my attempt to fix my shaky bow.

Starting point is 00:26:56 And sure enough, I had a really, really, really shaky bow playing through for him in front of colleagues and friends and the greatest teacher I ever could imagine, this great artist, Leon Fleischer. And afterwards, he went up onto the stage and looked me in the eye and said, you know, the problem here is that you don't have enough in your mind. and here I was a stinky 18 year old and in tears already and this man had no mercy no sympathy you know you don't have enough in your mind if you really knew and wanted to make it sound exactly like you had in your mind you wouldn't have any room for nervousness now that's an idealization because walking on stage is um is an organic event that has organic consequences in the body there can be an adrenaline response but it is also true that the more detailed and deep and complete your idea is of what you want to transmit, what it's got to

Starting point is 00:28:15 sound like, the less room there is for that nervousness. Yes. Yes. So it's another way of saying the same thing. Intention, not desire. Yes. There's a wonderful conversation with Barbara Hannigan, and I'll try to find the link and I'll put that to where she says, and I'm completely paraphrasing here, but in the nutshell, what she's trying to express is that when you try to impress, you can't express. Yes. And I love that because it's so true as when you, it's another way of saying it, I guess, when you try to focus on the message as opposed to how it will be received or how you feel and what, you know, when you stay attached to the desires, there's obstacles to expressing that message then. well because your desires are um filtered through your perception and your perception is filtered through your past experience and it's never pure right right it's never a clear transparent view of the world it can't be the most honest person in the world is still

Starting point is 00:29:33 affected by what their past has been by their own experience it's on a cellular level there's nothing you can do about that yeah it's it is a complicated issue and I want to bring up another piece of it which is that when we grow up trying to improve at anything but particularly playing an instrument or something that involves both craft and art. We expect to learn by being judged. And there is a difference between being judged and making good differentiation, right?

Starting point is 00:30:20 Yes. Nevertheless, we will be judged. We trust our teachers and our mentors to judge us and to tell us what they think. And it's sometimes difficult to draw a clear line between judging and differentiating. So we grow up with the useful aspects of being judged. We know it well from our childhood on. And we use it to help others.

Starting point is 00:30:54 when you say to someone that's not in tune yet you are partially making a judgment you're saying to that person it has to be better mm-hmm and since we grow up with that it's very difficult to walk on stage and let go of the fact and the knowledge that that kind of judging has helped us to learn, has helped us to improve. And we have to let go of it from ourselves to ourselves. And we have to let go of it as we imagine the audience might be giving it to us. Absolutely, yes.

Starting point is 00:31:42 And it is not to be done without a lot of hard internal work because we do grow up with it. We're surrounded by it. And it is a useful tool for certain things, but not for communicating in a performance. That's right. One way I talk about it to students and clients is the distinction between assessing and judging, which is assessing what is versus judging themselves. So if I use the example that you use is to tell themselves the F sharp was too flat or too sharp versus I play out of tune or I have no intonation. And one of them makes them more empowered to fix the issue versus feeling doomed as an individual. That's exactly right. And so you used the word assessing and I used the word discerning. But it's exactly the same.

Starting point is 00:32:49 We're talking about the same thing. Yes. And I love that. kim this month on the podcast and in the mind over finger facebook community we talk about how to get the most out of a music degree now this is going to look different for everyone depending on your background depending on where you go to school depending what you're planning i say within quotation because you and i both know that things unfold but for those listening who are thinking about pursuing a music degree or are currently pursuing a music degree what in your opinion can

Starting point is 00:33:26 they do to really get the most out of this experience again a big question yes but i would say you know broaden your perspective that um when you're studying yes you need to know So, let's put aside studying the craft of how to play your instrument and talk about studying the music. You want to know the language. You want to know about the harmony, about the structure. You want to know how the language works. And then, and very important, you want to know why that language exists at that point in time. So you need to know the historic, social, political background of the time. So know your history. Know where that composer sits in a big picture. maybe

Starting point is 00:34:35 make sure you read a few books that were written in the same decade maybe make sure that you see paintings that were written in the same decade maybe make sure that you see paintings

Starting point is 00:34:59 and other forms of art and other forms of expression that were created in that same decade. Also, consider that music wasn't always meant for the elite. In its pure original form, the troubadours went around from town to town and told the news. and we still need to know that we're telling the news that means being able to speak to any demographic

Starting point is 00:35:38 of people and it means playing contemporary music it means you don't want to live your life in the museum the very beautiful museum of Bach and Schubert and Beethoven but you also want to live

Starting point is 00:35:57 on the streets of today musically yeah yeah this is wonderful advice what's a habit that you have that you think contributed to your success i don't know if it's a habit but i needed to make sound and somehow had the endurance to make sure that that could happen. I love that. How about doubts or resistance that you've had to face on this journey? Well, I will admit to not being a natural performer. that I would, by nature, I would have been a great librarian

Starting point is 00:36:49 or perhaps a psychotherapist, something where I could work one-on-one and in private. So I had a lot to overcome to be able to use what I wanted to communicate in the format of being on stage. yeah this is very inspiring to hear for myself and for so many people out there i'm sure well i think the thing that helped me the most was some at some point around the age 45 when i said to myself look okay this is not natural for you you're you're struggling with it you've been struggling with it it's not your fault actually it's just not your nature so find a way around

Starting point is 00:37:41 yeah right i love this do you have a favorite goal in the practice room listen to yourself with love oh perfect you know if you listen to yourself with love you're going to want to make it better and you're going to know how to make it better without contracting that's so beautifully said I'm going to put this somewhere where I can see it all the time. What is a piece of advice that was given to you that you would like to pass on to the listeners? I think I just would say, again, I'm going to circle back to Leon Fleischer and say that thing that he told me, which is when you know, fully know exactly what you are trying to do,

Starting point is 00:38:44 you will be able to do it. But examining that takes a huge amount of time and patience and endurance and a good look in the mirror. yeah but it's so i'm giving you a complicated answer but it's also a very simple one it's know yourself yeah know yourself and know what you want to say and find the way to say it really wise words and finally how about a quick actionable tip that the listeners could implement today in their musical lives? Go do something else. This is great. Yes, I love that. Doesn't matter what it is. Dig a hole in your garden. Plant something. Count the stars at night.

Starting point is 00:39:47 Do a hundred deep knee bends. Whatever, you know, as my daughter would say, whatever floats your boat. Go do it. And then come back and work some more. Love this. Kim, you've shared so many things that are important for people to hear. And I'm so grateful that you took the time to sit down and chat with me this morning. Thank you so much. You're very welcome. It's been a pleasure. thank you guys so much for listening i hope you enjoyed this conversation with kim kashkashian i personally have many favorite moments from this episode the first one that i can think of is the principle of doing our work as if we both had a thousand hours and only that very day i I think that saying embodies so well the type of mindset we should adopt in a practice room.

Starting point is 00:40:49 The idea that we should be both completely committed and present as if we had no time to waste and at the same time, be completely meticulous and patient with the process as if we had all the time in the world. I think most problems happen in the practice room when we either waste time by being mindless or we try to rush the process. So I'd like to invite you to try this this week in your practice room, to have this blend of utmost patience and diligent urgency in your work. And while you're at it, why not add this one additional element that she mentions, which

Starting point is 00:41:29 is to listen to yourself with love. As Kim says it beautifully, if you listen to yourself with love, you're going to want to make it better. And if you know me a little bit, you know that self-compassion in the practice room is one of the things I advocate the most. So try all these things and join me on Friday, October 29th at 10 a.m. in the Mind Over Finger community for a discussion on this topic. I want to hear all about your experience and your views on this,

Starting point is 00:42:00 and I'll be happy to answer any question you have about practicing, performing, and creating a meaningful musical experience. You can find the community at facebook.com slash groups slash mindoverfinger. If you relate to this conversation, let me know by getting in touch and let's keep this discussion going. I'm mindoverfinger on both Instagram and Facebook. And don't forget to share with everyone you think could benefit from Kim's wisdom. Now, if you're looking to take your practicing and performing to the next level, I have something for you. As I've shared with you in the last episode, Practicing for Peak

Starting point is 00:42:44 Performance, my performance preparation workshop is now available for download. If you're looking for a process that works and that will allow you to enjoy more efficient practice sessions, gain confidence, and perform at your best, check out Practicing for Peak Performance at mindoverfinger.com. When you join practicing for peak performance, you gain access to all the recorded content that's over seven hours jam-packed with information, guidance, and effective high performance systems. You get detailed handouts and worksheets, access to the PPP Facebook group community for support and answers to all your questions, and for a limited time, a complimentary private 30-minute coaching session with me. A participant had this to say about practicing for

Starting point is 00:43:38 peak performance. For a long time, I've had this belief that learning an instrument is difficult and hard work, or that it has to be, and there is no other way. Only a few weeks after PPP, I'm starting to feel that change. My everyday practice sessions are now filled with freedom and ease. So if that sounds like the kind of results you'd like to experience, head to mindoverfinger.com right now and access all the tools that will help you transform your practice, gain confidence in your process, and start performing at your best today. As always, I have all the information related to this episode in the show notes. You can find them via your podcast app or by visiting mindoverfinger.com. While there, you can find more information

Starting point is 00:44:27 about mindful and efficient practice, performance preparation, and how to work with me. And don't forget to sign up for my newsletter to receive your free guide to a productive, mindful practice using the metronome. So that's it for today. Again, thank you and à bientôt. Thank you.

The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 110 Kim Kashkashian: Expressive Artistry

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