The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 125 Paul Ellison: The Essence of Pedagogy

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to the Mind Over Finger podcast, episode number 125. Welcome to the Mind Over Finger podcast, discussions on mindful music making, efficient practice, and building a purposeful career. And now, your host, violinist, teacher, and high performance coach for musicians, Dr. René-Paul Gaultier. Hi, everyone. I hope you're feeling amazing today as you listen to this conversation. And if you're hearing this before March 31st, 2022, it means that enrollment for the Music Mastery Experience is officially open and you still have time to lock in the awesome early enrollment bonuses.

Starting point is 00:00:52 If you're ready to crack the code to start performing at your best and to experience fulfillment in your music career, the Music Mastery Experience was made for you. If you're done with not seeing results for the endless amount of work, of time, and energy that you put in the practice room, then you're ready for the Music Mastery Experience. Go to mindoverfinger.com right now to book your free conversation with me and get your transformation started today. You can access some great early enrollment bonuses if you sign up before March 31st, and the program is already filling up, so don't delay. Stay tuned after the interview for more details. Today, I'm so delighted to bring you the wonderful, legendary Paul Ellison. Paul is one of the world's leading teachers and performers of the double bass. He's professor of double bass at Rice University's Shepard School of Music,

Starting point is 00:01:53 visiting artist faculty at the University of Southern California, guest tutor at the Yehudi Menuhin School, the Royal College of Music, and at the Bass Club in England. His current summer positions include principal bass at the Grand Teton and Aspen Music Festivals, faculty performer at the Sarasota Music Festival, and faculty performer at the Sarasota and Domaine Fourgette Music Festivals. His diverse international activities include chamber music, period instrument performance,

Starting point is 00:02:25 and solo and duo performance, as well as workshops and masterclasses all over the world. Paul's career has included 23 years as principal bass of the Houston Symphony Orchestra, several years as principal bass of the Santa Fe Opera, and seven years as Chair of Strings at the University of Southern California. Former students hold prominent positions in orchestras in schools worldwide. This is a really powerful conversation that I know will have you walk away feeling completely inspired. Paul shares with us his wisdom on practicing, learning, and teaching. So wherever you are in your musical journey, there is something for you in this interview.

Starting point is 00:03:11 I know you're going to love it. Let's go to the show. Paul Ellison, it's so fantastic to have you on the show today. It's entirely my pleasure. Thank you, Renee Paul. Paul, you have such incredible insight on so many topics going from practicing to performing to pedagogy. And I can't wait to dive into all of this with you. And before we do this, I would love for my audience to get to hear from you about your musical journey and how it unfolded. It's kind of interesting because growing up in the middle of Manhattan, my grandparents, who just to relate to today's pandemic situation, uh they had gone through the 18 1918 and 19 flu and she was the first woman to be hired in the

Starting point is 00:04:14 organ at the at the theater organ in new york city wow and my grandfather hired him and then all of the union guys came to him his name was joseph zivelli z-e-v-e-l-l-i they said hey joe what the hell are you doing hiring a woman? And he looked at him and he said, Stella was the best. I hired the best organist I could get. And it happens to be a woman. There we go. A visionary right there. Yes. And so growing up in that environment, they were really strong people. And my mother was a professional singer. And I did my best to be obstinate and stay away from music. Other than being a boy soprano. I did do that. But I didn't play an instrument until I got to eighth grade. And then it was guitar. And then when I got to high school, I decided, you know, it would be fun

Starting point is 00:05:13 to play in an ensemble. And so I went to the high school band director and I said, hey, I'd like to be a drummer. And he looked at me and he said, yeah, you and everybody else. Yeah. I said, go down and see this guy and he gave me his name and uh he runs the orchestra he'll find the place for you so i walked in and he was about the size of the old black and white movie star peter laurie so he was came to me about here and he looked up and he said yeah you're a big one you see that thing over there in the corner i said yeah that you mean the double bass he said oh you know what it is okay so you're going to play that that was the beginning that's amazing how it starts it is and the resistance was really funny my looking back on my own resistance

Starting point is 00:06:09 yeah and so i when i recognize that occasionally it just makes me smile this is it's wonderful to hear and what happened after that well I did pretty well because I could hear and I faked the music reading because after we played it once I could play it by ear so it was a little challenging to for me to actually learn how to do that because I hadn't learned to do it on the guitar and of course I had plenty of hope of help at home and that I didn't take advantage of and eventually it just settled in as I was reading and then there was an opportunity to have free lessons with one of the Chicago Symphony bass players and I took that challenge and got the opportunity to study with this person

Starting point is 00:07:03 and that was the beginning of my serious study and the first lessons were so bad he was a avid cigar smoker and he would fill our studio on Michigan Avenue next to Orchestra Hall with cigar smoke and i was an athlete and i just said you know this is killing me he would actually open the door it got so bad and he would walk out in the hall and holler back c sharp so uh i i soon found another teacher that didn't smoke uh and that it started that way and the teacher had been in the Chicago Symphony, but was busy playing studio work, TV and radio, and I was more interested in studying with him. A wonderful human and a wonderful teacher.

Starting point is 00:07:57 Paul, you've performed with many orchestras. You have a very active career in terms of performance. What led you to teaching eventually? it was it's my favorite question to be asked and i just did a graduate there's a graduate seminary a seminary there's a graduate seminar here uh for people that are already teaching and that know they're going to teach and i'm like the visitor that comes in and tells them war stories and this particular war story was this wonderful kid that was I was in high school with who was really struggling with his bass and so by the second year and I was taking lessons and it

Starting point is 00:08:45 was kind of working it pained me to see this person struggling with this instrument and so I thought about how do I help this person without being the obnoxious know-it-all kid that's one year older that has played a whole year longer than he has and be helpful without without getting in the way or making an enemy it was there was never a consideration of well I'm going to do that to make extra money or anything like that. It was just, I knew that I had to, to help this person and that, that I could make things work a little bit easier if I figured out how to say it without being obnoxious. So that was the beginning. And by the time I was through with high school, I already had one

Starting point is 00:09:47 student serious student and then while i was in college uh i that was part of my rebellion college was interesting i could have stayed in then i was by then i was in chicago but i could have gone to school in new york or chicago but that was the 60s and you don't have any way of knowing anything about much about the 60s but there was a lot of rebellion going on and i just thought you know i've never been west so I looked at all of the possibilities and we'd had a visitor in my Chicago school who was from New Mexico and I thought well that's about as far out as you can get so I went to undergraduate school in New Mexico and and it was perfect because it it came with playing with a lot

Starting point is 00:10:37 of regional orchestras there was an orchestra in Amarillo Texas there was an orchestra in Roswell texas there was an orchestra in lubbock texas and part of my studies was to jump in a car and go play two rehearsals in a concert with these various orchestras so it was actually more experience orchestrally than i would have gotten at northwestern or juilliard or manhattan or any of the other schools that would have been obvious choices and i also made my longest lifetime friend with Don Robertson of the Robertson shop in Albuquerque and I don't know what we'd do without each other we'd have to go fly fishing alone so that was that's when it started and uh there's never been a time when it hasn't been important

Starting point is 00:11:30 to me there's never been a time when I wasn't fascinated by why things happen the way they do and why people make the choices that they do. So other than recognizing when it happened, I have no understanding. And it's just like talking to you about it right now. Unfortunately for everybody else, I could just do this forever. And that's how I feel about every lesson. The more challenging it is, the better. i just i'm consumed by it and it doesn't take away from me i've played already three operas

Starting point is 00:12:12 this season and i've got two more got turned out to do next month and uh romeo and juliet to finish it off so and also i do a lot of early music play and i love teaching from early music through contemporary i feel if if i turn my camera around you'll see let's see how many are out at the moment one two three four five six and the trash bow there are seven period bows right now and whatever repertoire anybody's playing i give them the opportunity to see what it would feel like at least on the period bow i can't produce all of the strings and the tunings but we have that too We cover, I've got a gut string bass directly behind me right there, and a solo instrument from the 1700s. And I try to give them the history of what we do along with being contemporary.

Starting point is 00:13:20 Paul, that's amazing. And to hear you speak about that desire to help with so much consideration on the best way to serve that student without thinking about yourself is just such a testament of your character. And that's what I hear a lot about from your students. They speak so highly of you. And from the outside, we can also see that a lot of your students have a lot of success. But to hear former students talk about you is very touching. I've read somewhere that you have a very Socratic approach to double-based teaching. I'd love for you to tell us about that approach and hear more about your teaching style or any wisdom you would like to share about teaching. The child of nature that shows up in front of us, regardless of your spiritual affiliation, is something that just has to be recognized.

Starting point is 00:14:26 Sometimes it's almost overwhelming that there's somebody like at a first lesson, fearful of being in there, of doing something wrong or of not being good enough or some issue that they brought into the room with their instrument. realizing the other persons pushing the empathy button would be the short way to talk about it but it's so inadequate and covers so little that I'll expand

Starting point is 00:15:01 on it a little bit more people that watch for base things on YouTube or Facebook will know the name Nina DeCesare nina is not a tall person she's a less long person i'm not fond of the s word because i don't think that makes any sense but so nina's on one end of the spectrum

Starting point is 00:15:30 on the other end of the spectrum my current freshman samantha is six foot one and the principal base in the Met, Rex Harani, is six foot seven. And if we just look at that span from in the middle of five feet to six foot one to six foot seven, you can't ask all of these people to do the same thing the same way with the same pedagogy, the same technique, the same equipment even everything has to be suited to the individual since I'm kind of a hopeless jock myself and have always been active in athletics of one kind or another and still do that now it's refined to calmer things like tai chi and yoga and going to the gym and working on various things in the gym i still get a basketball and go up go up to

Starting point is 00:16:33 the hoop and do a little of that but when you think about baseball which everybody has some visual of even if they hate it every batter has their own bat and the batter that's in the low five foot range which there are several and good ones and then there are the batters that are not quite as tall as the principal base of the met six seven but there are baseball players that are in their middle six foot range they have they don't have the same tools they don't use the same bat and it would be ridiculous for them to try to use the same bat so the first assessment is okay and and this answers the last question that you had on your list but we may as well take it first the question is how and why where are we starting how how is this working for you

Starting point is 00:17:30 what things would you like to to bring to your lesson i make sure that they understand that the lesson is their lesson and that i am there to support the needs that they have i may wish to discuss with them what their needs are but i always like to start with what they would like to do and what they're comfortable with and if it's a if it's a first lesson in fact i do this with every lesson i've done it with two lessons today what things did you bring that are on the top of your list for your lesson and my all my personal students get a self-management book and the self-management it's it's now digital as well for those that have never seen a book it's also digital well i mean you know we've got those people

Starting point is 00:18:25 uh it's it's it's online and in addition thanks to my student that uh tracy rowell who teaches at overland she's updating the checklist which has everything on it except your blood type It asks you questions about your bow hold. It asks you questions about your vibrato. It asks you questions about the physical activities that we go through, about your spiccato, about your awareness of new music, your understanding of period practice. It just has a whole bunch of questions. So much of my teaching has to do with the answers that I get. But the questions always come first.

Starting point is 00:19:09 I love that. the questions always comes first and what you were saying in terms of your fascination for teaching mixed with the empathy that empathy button you talk about and that care that deep care that you seem to have for the human i think that's the magic recipe to really get the artists within to come out i just love that thanks it's it's uh the challenge is that there are never two of the same people in front of you ever and in fact the truth of that matter is the same person is not the same as they were last week and or the day before for that matter and I learned that myself in my midlife crisis going to Paris at age 40 to study with Francois Abad and I did that

Starting point is 00:20:05 because he was the guest soloist at our hour being the United North America's first international competition that was held in 79, November of 79. And he was commissioned to come to Cincinnati and play a new concerto written for him in the Cincinnati Symphony. he did not take part in the competition the competition was for younger people and in fact edgar meyer made his debut at that particular competition he and john feeney were the winners of the classical part and the world famous john clayton was the winner of the jazz competition but we all gathered afterwards this is all of the bass teachers from all of the major

Starting point is 00:20:57 schools and all of the great jazz players that were available to come there were probably three or four hundred known bass players sitting in that concert and Francois is playing this new music written for him and I didn't know neither did any of the rest of us what it was he was doing it was by the time it was over i was so completely frustrated and it is not what i was expecting you to say yeah and i said what is this i mean he plays the same instrument that i play with a stick that's got hair on it and so i i i had he and i had done a thing in cincinnati before in one of the summer workshops in fact the poster that's directly behind the bass bags up on the wall behind me is a reflection of that so we we knew

Starting point is 00:21:52 each other and i called him and i said francois i must come and study with you and he said no i said what do you what do you mean no said you already you were you do orchestra you're wonderful orchestra player i see you teach you're you're a good teacher and i said but i must come because I don't know what you do or how you do it. And he said, no. And I said, all right, here's what's going to happen. I will sell my bass and sell my bow and become an orchestra conductor unless I can come see you.

Starting point is 00:22:32 Same silence we're experiencing right now. No response. And he says, you are kidding. No. No. When you are coming. Next comment. January 1st, same year, got a leave from Houston Symphony, got a leave from Rice, which was fledgling at the time.

Starting point is 00:22:57 We didn't start Rice until 1975. So off to Paris I was. I got a leave for eight months. And that was the beginning of that journey, which was incredible because he had never taken a full time student like that before. And he was so busy having played with Jacques Brel and Aznavour and all of these other people in the studios and touring with them. And then he finally decided to have a family and took his first audition at age 49 for the Paris Opera and succeeded, never having played an audition in his life, which is a whole nother podcast. Just how did that happen? But that's François.

Starting point is 00:23:45 um so never having had time to have students now that he was doing the opera he actually did have time to do students so he accepted me and he i stayed with with him when i first got there on his in his salon on the floor put together place to sleep and they helped me find an apartment and there i was and that was the beginning of that and then i did that over an eight-year period where I would go back. I went back to both my jobs, but I would take, get a month or a month and a half and go to Paris and work on my studies with him. Paul, one of the questions I had for you that you mentioned already is in addition to the teaching part, there's another part of the equation, which is the learning part and how students can maximize their learning

Starting point is 00:24:41 experience but i'd be curious to hear what it is that you learn from francois when you went there because it seemed to come from such a deep and genuine curiosity and just you had such a drive to learn from him what was it it partially had to do with my athletic awareness what one sees when someone is in the zone which by the way is the name of a book it's called the zone and it's written by a trumpet player but it refers to the same thing that i'm going to mention watching francois i'm going to quote sitting with my dean the first time we brought francois to visit and he was playing his recital at rice university i was sitting with the dean and he walked on stage with his bass and the dean said that man is an athlete and that clicked with me right away

Starting point is 00:25:40 and those of us that know Francois know that he was a competition bodybuilder he was a young man in fact he got so good at it that it actually started to interfere with the freedom that he found in some of his playing and he stopped his weights and continued to take very good care of himself and be aware of his athleticism but i saw that freedom in his playing that one sees with an athlete that's in the in the zone if we watch a beautiful our favorite basketball player we see the beauty of a shot that is effortless there's there's not a hard part to it the shot is done with balletic form so that lebron james when he's at the free throw line or even at the three-point line it looks like absolutely the easiest thing that he's done today and to have

Starting point is 00:26:44 that kind of skill and be playing the double bass there was one time during that performance that we all saw in cincinnati that he was doing descending double stops on two strings and it was included with a a trill from time to time and i guarantee you that not one of the hundreds of us that were watching him, had any idea how he was doing or even what it was he was doing and had never seen or heard it before. So that kind of thinking sent me to his floor and I would lie on the floor and watch him from underneath. And I had permission to put my hands on his back. I had permission to put my hand on his upper arm or on his shoulder to see how he was able to move himself in a way to stay completely free and unstressed with no unnecessary tension in any of his ligaments,

Starting point is 00:27:48 tendons, muscles, joints. Everything was completely as free as the correct way to throw a frisbee. So this whole kinesthetic aspect of playing. absolutely yeah absolutely and if there's anything more important to what we do particularly for bass players i don't know what it is because we've got this monster that we have to conquer and all of us think oh we have to be big and strong which is why i mentioned the the sizes of some of my former students and current students and that it has nothing to do with that it has everything, any more than it does in athletics. It has to do with the way that we combine the physics of the instrument with the physiology of the person holding the instrument and maximizing

Starting point is 00:28:40 the string contact point, maximizing the understanding of how and why we move the bow in one direction or the other, and how much of the face of the hair are we going to engage for what particular stroke all of this is a combination of physics and physiology and the understanding of both is paramount to being able to understand what the secrets and they aren't secrets but they occasionally seem to be secrets of what what there is to share about how to help somebody make the first note of Mahler 2 which is the comparison note for us because not only did he put three F's underneath it, a hat accent over it, a sforzando underneath it, but then he says savagely above in the text. What else can you possibly ask? So, you know, I see people

Starting point is 00:29:37 bend themselves, contort themselves, and try to use every fiber of muscle in their body, and nothing happens. Well, of course not, because that's not what the instrument was made for. I think one of our greatest contemporary gifts that we have on YouTube is Augustine Heidelick's 48 short videos about Ask Augustine. He covers pretty much everything. And if there's anybody on our string planet that is more outstanding in today's world, I'm not sure who it is. And he goes into things that we're talking about right now. And he may not use the same verbiage, but he does address it. And his total freedom with his instrument and his bow is a pleasure to watch.

Starting point is 00:30:34 And oddly enough, we do have, and I don't think that you were at Domaine when he was coming, but we have someone else come from Paris whose name is Renaud Garcia Font, F-O-N-S. and he usually stops in Montreal and does two concerts at the Jazz Fest and sells out both houses and then he comes up and teaches with us and then does a concert at Domaine as well and he's a Francois student

Starting point is 00:31:02 Francois saved him because he was injured he was a young guitarist and injured himself studying with somebody else and happened to run into Francois on the street whole other story But with Francois' help, helped him with his bow hand, and the very same bow hand that you see on Augustin Heidelich is the bow hand that you will see with Renaud Garcia Fall. So it's spectacular, and that's why I mentioned the two together, because it's a completely effortless cradling of the bow. I never use the G word in conjunction with the bow.

Starting point is 00:31:43 I reserve the G word. Shall I spell it so that people know what it is? Sure. Yes. G-R-I-P, which is what you get when you go to the hardware store, is you get something to use in that way. And it comes with the word vice, vice grip. And if you think of what that is in hardware,

Starting point is 00:32:04 that's the very last thing you ever want to do with a bow for a string instrument so the the cradle of the bow and the ability for every joint from the first joint in the thumb to the third joint in the base of the hand and in each finger and the flexibility of every single from the shoulder even to the hips and all the way to the elliptical start of a bow stroke and bringing bringing that understanding to the youngest of child is actually a possible thing that you can do and finding the way to do it is the challenge but it's there to do yeah that's amazing what you're sharing and as i hear you speak your own words come back to me which is it starts with asking questions and being curious how why all of this is beautiful you mentioned

Starting point is 00:33:06 earlier how at home you didn't always take advantage of these opportunities to get help from your parents what are some ways that students can help themselves when they're studying and to maximize the incredible wisdom that they get from you or the other teachers i feel like it's very difficult to absorb everything that we're exposed to all the time but what are some ways you think that when a young student could um facilitate the absorption of all of this information gadgets and the internet are both our friend and our enemy and at least for young bass players by the time i see them they have a phone whether we like it or not and one of the things that come with the phone

Starting point is 00:34:02 whether it's at the break at school if they get to look at their phone at school which most of them don't hopefully but they learn about multitasking and one of the things that we need to consider when we're studying a string instrument and suzuki was very good about this the way he dealt with it and the way he spoke about it I should have said Dr. Suzuki because I always like to think of him in that way some of my personal friends

Starting point is 00:34:34 that deal with teaching children actually got to go and work with him in Japan and I have through the students I have a piece of his hand-signed art in my dining room and we did have connections

Starting point is 00:34:52 through some of these people um the idea of separating skills is extremely helpful and i do it kind of through the back door and i point out to them what why their parents are upset with them when their head's in the phone and they've asked them a question that they haven't answered and i asked them if they actually even heard the question And generally, no, there wasn't even space for that. And I asked them, how many things are they doing when they are playing an instrument? If they're looking at even at looking at music or if they aren't looking at music, if they're just playing the instrument by themselves. Generally, they haven't thought about it because they see playing as playing.

Starting point is 00:35:46 But what does it start with? What about the eye-hand coordination? but even before that before they get the result what is the result that they want to have have they made a thought have they had a thought about what they want to hear out of the result what result they they wish to have generally that hasn't been thought about so we take it down to the very first thing which generally is posture and again it refers to the physiology and the athletic capacity of playing your instrument in a way that's positive to your body and since i'm a dinosaur that got to study music education in a different in a in a different way than most

Starting point is 00:36:37 people do today you can't be a take an education degree and have a performance degree at the same time well i did in my undergrad and got both and fulfilled all the requirement took me an extra semester but filled all the requirements for both of those degrees and then did my graduate degree in just performance but it was with a strong musicological it went with a strong musicological background so having held violins violas and cellos and knowing how to start people on all of those instruments has been a big help to me and i think about it and i think about what it takes to hold up the violin and the viola and how one needs to sit when playing the cello

Starting point is 00:37:25 and how one needs to address the bass, whether it's standing or sitting, how those choices are made and what it has to do with the very thing that we were talking about at the beginning about athletics, flexibility, the use of the hips, the use of the freedom of the shoulder socket,

Starting point is 00:37:46 all of those things can start right from the beginning if you're lucky this there's a wonderful woman who teaches in the UK her name is Caroline Emery she's at the Royal College of Music she's at the junior division of the Royal College of Music she's also at the famed Menuhin School and she is our go-to young bassist person she starts the five and six-year-olds and the only person that's really doing that to the same extent is the person i mentioned earlier tracy rowell who is the franchise teacher at oberlin and also the early music teacher early bass teacher at the conservatory in the cleveland institute and so she gets to teach the little ones too um i love that they both have me they're kind enough

Starting point is 00:38:45 to bring base papa over to do that kind of stuff and i just am absolutely fascinated by doing it i love doing it and i've found i have students that i worked with when they were at those tender ages and it's a very very special relationship both both on the other continent and on this continent and also reaches over into what's into hong kong and taiwan and new zealand and australia so those those relationships are profound and actually having taught also taught adults it starts the same way yeah that was a very long answer to your question but there's no short answer there is no short answer no yeah and i like that you're saying also to use that technology because nowadays it's so easy to record a lesson and listen to it over

Starting point is 00:39:48 and over and get that perspective and then record yourself yes sitting in this very studio in the in the far corner because it hasn't been used for a long time is a woolen sack tape recorder and it comes with a separate microphone two reels a whole bunch of tape and weighs about 40 pounds all together and that's what i had to use when i was a student and now here it is on sitting on the on the counter in front of me and it's a phone and it'll do several times a better recording yeah and in fact there's a rule in my studio no recording no lesson yeah i like this they record yeah guess who's who just showed up on my phone i'll let you see it so oh that's great that's the very person we were talking about that's perfect so for the listeners it's nina

Starting point is 00:40:49 who we i try to keep relationships with all my students all over the place it's it's a wonderful thing it's a wonderful family yeah yeah so the the multitasking thing is crucial that we recognize how many things we're doing at the same time and so let's get the posture thing done first and set everything up and my favorite one is the suzuki story dr Suzuki, before he puts a bow in their hand, he has everyone come to check their violin posture to be sure that everything is where it should be and that it's relaxed. And then he has them place their hand on the D string and then through their arm, draw the D string to the side and allow it to come out from under their finger. What genius is that? I mean, it couldn't get any better than

Starting point is 00:41:43 that because that shows the oscillation of the string it shows a release of the of the finger itself that the string releases itself because of the tension of the string that you don't have to do anything to pluck the string that that's a passive movement and that the string releases itself and then we hope for the best when we're by the time we get the bow in our hand but it's just one small example of trying to limit the focus of the child's mind to a single thing and then to flip to another dr suzuki thing then to get them walking and doing other things at the same time that they're doing that that single uh activity that relates to their instrument so that they begin to be able to sing and walk and do simple things at the same time.

Starting point is 00:42:40 So we build their multitasking awareness and their ability to do multiple things. It's harder to walk around with the base, though. It's impossible, and we wouldn't ask it. It would be dangerous. But we do have other things like basing the boat, whereas you're standing or sitting, and you just place your bow on the string and then you move the bass to see what kind of sound is made. I mean, this is my attempt to do Dr. Suzuki's thing with our instrument. And it's amazing what you can do and how refined you can get basing the bow instead of bowing the bass. I love that. Paul, what is a habit that you have that you think contributed to your success?

Starting point is 00:43:26 i read that question and i think it's the very thing that keeps me having to play in the grand teton summer orchestra in the houston opera orchestra in various early music groups i participate in at least three and have done the french down to 392 and 415 the 430 still drives me crazy but i do it anyway if i satisfy that part of my musicianship i'm a very much happier person and it's part of the total patch package of satisfaction i love the engagement with the student but I also love what we do and I try to keep one related to the other as I said I've got all these

Starting point is 00:44:30 bows and all this gear in here that I make available to the students and it's because that's my passion so I get to share the things that are important with me as I do them on my professional level to try to relate that to what's possible uh the most recent example because of covid we uh two of our bass players were out when we were doing the pulang the dialogue of the carmelites which is a fabulous fabulous opera and i had never played it so we were down to three bass players and there was nobody else on the sub list that was available so i brought in one of my grad students i took him the score the night before and i said okay you're on tomorrow and we sat together so i could i could be of assistance my choice is not to lead sections

Starting point is 00:45:27 anymore i i like to let my former students have the worries of the boeings and all of the other things that go on I just come in and I'll bring up the rear very happily and play my part but it was so much fun to have this young person there who had never done anything like that and he actually his first rehearsals were in the pit they were all ready to sit sit provost so the rehearsals of just the orchestra were passed he didn't have the advantage of having done any of It was just really thrown into trial by fire. So getting to share that enthusiasm with the youngest of students and also my more advanced grad students, I can't think of anything better. And the connection of the two seems obvious to me, at least.

Starting point is 00:46:21 Yes, that's a perfect answer. You mentioned the book earlier. Is there a book you'd like to share with the listeners? There are so many. Soprano on Her Head by Eloise Ristad is always one of my favorites. Super Learning, Sheila Ostrander, spectacular. She, as a Russian scientist and musician, gives us ways to take ourselves less seriously

Starting point is 00:46:52 and to remove the onus or the tension or the friction of learning something is a wonderful, wonderful read and a wonderful way to think about it. And then the book that I mentioned to you a little bit earlier, Performing in the Zone by John, J-O-N-G-O-R-R-I-E. And just understanding that there is a zone and that we see the zone, sometimes it's easier to see it in a jazz musician who is so loving what she or he is doing at the moment that there's just this beaming constant smile and there's a there's a ready version of that uh on television every night if you if you watch the stephen colbert show and you watch the

Starting point is 00:47:48 band that plays for Stephen Colbert and you see the joy that that Jean-Baptiste himself has but then all the rest of his musicians yeah the the bass player she's just she's never without a smile I mean she's she's just spectacular that's available to us we don't have to do the smiley thing you know we're not on camera all the time and we don't it doesn't have to be an exterior smile but i think that if somebody had a video of i hope of me that there are lots of smiles in any performance just because of the satisfaction of the last sforzando and the exquisite string crossing that sounded like you were playing uh a hurdy-gurdy or something that was just air moving through the reeds and i often hold up the standard of what a bass clarinet sounds like

Starting point is 00:48:47 how the freedom and the in the openness of that sound is available to string players if they just quit pressing the string that's a good point right understand your body how to maximize the sound yeah yes the the pressing thing is a little bit more extreme than it is in the upper strings because you guys can't get away with it at all we can get away with it and it almost it almost can serve as bass playing even though there's so much more that's available if you don't do that so there's no such we don't do pressure and unless it's you know one of my former students plays with ensemble modern in germany and of course he has to make every kind of sound

Starting point is 00:49:37 known to the universe and so he does press and he does make extraneous noises but he's being paid to do that and it's part of what he does so that's another extreme paul do you have a favorite tool in the practice room uh the phone everything's on there yeah you you want to check in with your fine-tuning as francois both francois but more uh renaud garcia phone says turn the click on man you put the click on you be you're honest with yourself and i think that honesty is the key to it is being honest with yourself about and asking yourself continually why what how why is that complicated uh the our tools are like you said they're readily available you can record a very brief

Starting point is 00:50:36 musical gesture and be honest with what the result is and if you are wise enough to video it too you can also it can be very helpful for you and you can see since we're on camera together what's directly behind me. That mirror may be the most important tool that we have. And a day doesn't pass before I go home tonight, I will be in front of the mirror. And I will be watching the tilt of my bow and my bow hair, and the relaxation in my shoulder sockets, and my posture in general. Yeah. I like this word that you use, honesty. And we want objective honesty without judgment of character. Yeah. Judgment free. This is what's happening. Tell me what's happening and tell myself what's happening. I love that. Is there a piece of advice that you would like

Starting point is 00:51:33 to pass on to the listeners? My midlife crisis at age 40 should be at least somewhat of an example that it's never too late to do what you wish to do. My wife is a wonderful example of that. She's a multi-bass person. Between us, we own about 12 basses. She's an early music specialist and plays viol and all of the various viols. Plus, she plays a monster five-string bass that's suitable for the opera and ballet. And she's taking a graduate class in Spain right now. She'll be the first graduate of a medieval graduate class.

Starting point is 00:52:16 and she's comfortable a lot comfortably along in her age and there's no quit in her whatever so that's important and yeah i see it in kids and i that is difficult for me to understand uh and there's generally a reason and something has discouraged them they've had discouraging feedback or like i had a teacher that was more interested in cigar based lesson and that can be discouraging yeah so knowing that i've had students stay years after they were finished with school continue to take lessons before their first success in an audition one of a young man not young anymore who's one of our boston symphony people graduates who was 17 times the runner-up in an audition before getting a position

Starting point is 00:53:16 then within the immediately after the first success had another success so 18 and 19 outings 18 and 19 were both successful right so to think what would have happened had he quit at 17 Absolutely. Absolutely. No Boston Symphony. And that's an extreme one, but it's also a very honest one. And he wasn't my student. He was someone I got to know, in fact, hired for a one-year position with the Houston Symphony.

Starting point is 00:53:49 And then he went on to BSO, which is not too shabby. Yeah, I would say. Paul, finally, what about a quick actionable tip that the listeners could implement today in their musical lives? I think for string players, the remembrance of the difference between an elliptical bow stroke and a flat bow stroke may be the thing that is motivating me most at present and many of my students. The fact that the string itself, and we have great examples of this on YouTube, of the visual oscillation of the string and what dr suzuki was discussing with the release of the string from the finger we need to be doing that with our bows in the direction of the bridge

Starting point is 00:54:43 for the most part and when we do it in the counter direction to the bridge to be watching the starting of the curve away from the direction of if it's a down bow that before you're finished with your down bow the rest of your arm and your elbow are in the position to start the up bow and so the recovery from that down bow doesn't have an event at the end of it or a restart at the beginning of the next that the continual flow is in fact just that and it's easy for me to do with you to watch but you already know about it and that whole process unfortunately is under addressed in any of our pedagogy and realizing that that less than even oscillation of the string it isn't up and up up and down and it isn't sideways from side to side it's on an angle and we

Starting point is 00:55:43 do not account sufficiently for its existence. And the elliptical bow stroke is really the savior when it comes to that discussion. That's very interesting. I'll try that. Paul, I can't thank you enough for taking the time to sit with me and chat. And the listeners can't see you the way that I can, but your energy is so incredible. And I'm sure that it's palpable just in hearing your voice and your enthusiasm and your generosity of character are just so inspiring. So thank you so much for speaking with me today. It's entirely my pleasure. I hope you realize that I get as much kick out of doing this as you do. And I hope everyone else sees their playing and their teaching with anything that's at least something like the joy that I get from

Starting point is 00:56:37 doing this. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with world class bass player and pedagogue Paul Ellison. I have links for you in the show notes, including where to find some great videos of Paul playing and teaching in links to the books he refers to in the interview. Also in the show notes, you will find the links to all things Music Mastery Experience. The Music Mastery Experience is the coaching program for musicians. It's my life changing, highly personalized group coaching program, where I take you through a massive transformation that's going to have you feel certainty in the practice room, experience joy and freedom in performance, gain the confidence you've always wanted, and know how to go about

Starting point is 00:57:38 creating the career you've been dreaming of. No more indecision, band-aids, and short-term solutions. The Music Mastery Experience is unlike any other program out there because we go beyond the strategies and methods, which you'll get plenty of, of course, but we get to the root cause of issues. We unlock everything that's keeping you stuck and you'll start experiencing amazing results, not only on stage, but at every level of your music making experience and your life. We cover everything from practice methods that work to performance preparation strategies that have you perform with confidence and mind management techniques that will remove all the obstacles and self-limiting beliefs that are holding you back. You're going to see results

Starting point is 00:58:28 from our first session, and you're not going to believe what you're capable of accomplishing within a short amount of time. And the Music Mastery experience is radical because once you're in, you're in for life. That's right. Once you join, you will have constant support month after month to keep reaching new heights. And all of this is done in a small and very private environment where you will feel supported, inspired, and motivated. So if you have big dreams, big plans, and you're ready for more in your musical life, book a call today at mindoverfinger.com and let's make it happen. Whether you want to win an audition, perform optimally time after time, grow your career, make more money, or experience confidence like never before,

Starting point is 00:59:28 the Music Mastery Experience will get you there. You can access great early enrollment bonuses if you sign up before March 31st, and the program is already filling up, so don't delay. All right. Don't forget to share today's episode with everyone you think might benefit from Paul's insight. Share a post on Instagram and Facebook and tag me so I can say hi. I'm mind over finger everywhere. So that's what I have for you today. Be well, my friends. Once again, thank you so much for listening and à bientôt. Thank you.

The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 125 Paul Ellison: The Essence of Pedagogy

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