The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 200 Mastery, Mindfulness & Music

Episode Date: May 10, 2024

Curious about the mission behind Mind Over Finger? For this special 200th episode, my coach Jennifer Rosenfeld conducts a role reversal and interviews me! We discuss my journey from performer to coach and businesswoman, why I launched the podcast, and my ongoing mission as a content creator. Additionally, we cover: My perspectives on performance anxiety and finding joy in music through mindfulness The pursuit of creativity and mastery in music Personal growth, trauma, empathy, and support And much more Tune in now to gain inspiration from our conversation and explore your own path to mastery, mindfulness, creativity, and perhaps even entrepreneurship. I'd love to hear your reflections on this milestone. Which episode has been your favorite, or which concept resonated with you the most? Feel free to reach out via direct message to share your thoughts!   Book your FREE Music Mastery Experience Discovery call with Renée HERE Download the transcript from this episode HERE     Mind Over Finger Click www.mindoverfinger.com/coaching to book your free consultation with me. Visit MindOverFinger.com for my online courses as well as free resources on peak performance. Grab my free workshops and PDF downloads by going to www.mindoverfinger.com/resources. Connect: https://www.youtube.com/@MindOverFinger https://www.facebook.com/mindoverfinger/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/mindoverfinger https://www.instagram.com/mindoverfinger/

If you're curious about the mission behind Mind Over Finger and you're looking for insights into creativity, personal growth, and mindfulness in music, this episode is for you. You're listening to the Mind Over Finger podcast. This is episode number 200. Welcome to the Mind Over Finger podcast, where we dive into the world of mindful music making, peak performance, and crafting a purpose-driven life and career. I'm your host, violinist, certified performance and life coach for musicians, and your guide to unlocking your full potential, Dr. René-Paul Gaultier. Hi, everyone. I hope you're feeling amazing today as you're tuning in. 200 episodes. Well, that is something to be celebrated. When I hit 100

episodes, I wanted to do something special that felt meaningful. So I asked my kids to interview me. And if you haven't heard that episode, it's pretty cute. For the 200 episode mark, I also wanted something that felt meaningful. And I thought that there would be no better way to celebrate than to ask someone very special to me, someone who's been so influential for me and for mind overfinger to join me for the episode and I'm so happy she said yes. So today my coach Jennifer Rosenfeld joins me and she turns the tables by interviewing me and I have to say a few words about what she means to me before we get started and why this is so significant. The first time I heard about Jennifer Rosenfeld is when someone brought my attention to the

iCadenza podcast. So I started listening to it and I thought Jennifer was such a wonderful host. I loved the topics she was covering. I loved the questions she asked her guests and her overall presence on the show was really inspiring to me. And when I decided to launch the Mind Over Finger podcast in 2018, things worked out in a way that I had to learn how to interview people very quickly. Things happened fast. So I jumped on my phone and I listened to a bunch of the iCadenza podcast episodes and I took notes on how she was doing it. And I listened to other podcasts, of course, but I can share with you today that my interview style is very much modeled on hers. So I find it very fitting that she is the one interviewing me for this episode. Actually,

don't think it could be anybody else. Jennifer was my coach between 2020 and 2023. And she's the one who supported me through the creation of my coaching business. And she guided me through putting together the Music Mastery Experience and my online courses, Practicing for Peak Performance and the Performance Anxiety Solution. She's the most amazing and brilliant and kind and creative person. Actually, I will have her as a guest in the coming months so she can share about her own creative endeavors. And I'm so grateful to be able to celebrate this momentous event of 200 episodes of the Mind Over Finger podcast with her because she means so much to me. She's been an incredibly powerful inspiration and guiding light for me. In our conversation, we chat about

all things Mind Over Finger. We talk about my journey from performer to coach and businesswoman, why I launched the Mind Over Finger podcast, and my mission as a coach and content creator. And we also talked about my views on performance anxiety and finding joy in music through mindfulness and self-expression, pursuing creativity and mastery in music, personal growth, trauma and the importance of empathy and support and so much more. So I hope you find inspiration in these stories and insights and that our conversation perhaps encourage you to pursue your own journey of mastery, mindfulness, creativity, and perhaps entrepreneurship. And before we dive in the conversation, I want to remind you that the doors of the music mastery

experience are open for you right now. If you would like to explore things deeper in your life, if you're ready to step into possibilities and leave behind the fear, uncertainty, anxiety, and lack of confidence, and you want support as you're taking your career to the next level, I invite you to join the Music Mastery Experience, the most comprehensive coaching program tailor-made for musicians like you. I get it. High-level musicians often struggle with self-confidence, performance anxiety, uncertainty, low self-esteem. The Music Mastery Experience is specifically designed to tackle these challenges head-on and help you conquer them. I'm going to guide you through a transformative journey of self-discovery. I'm going to help you dig up the

root causes of these issues and equip you with powerful tools to kick them to the curb. You're going to get personalized guidance to help you navigate performance anxiety and build unshakable self-belief. You're going to experience newfound freedom in performance and greater results everywhere in your life. The Music Mastery Experience is about giving you the skills and strategies to thrive in your musical career and life. Don't let self-doubt hold you back any longer. Join the Music Mastery Experience today. Unlock your full potential

and say hello to a future filled with confidence, success, and musical fulfillment. So go to mindoverfinger.com slash M-M-E now to get the journey started. I have the link for you in the show notes. All right, my friends. I hope I get to talk to you soon. And now, let's go to the show. Renee, I'm so excited to be here with you. And we have something so big to celebrate,

which is your 200th episode of the Mind Over Finger podcast. Congratulations. Congratulations. Thank you. I'm so grateful to be doing this with you because you are an integral part of everything that Mind Over Finger is. So it really means so much to me that I'm celebrating this with you. Oh, well, thank you. I feel very honored to have been asked and I've been reflecting on it because I think it's a really big deal to reach 200 episodes of a podcast. How many years have you been running this podcast now this is season six it's amazing it's amazing uh you know that long-term commitment and dedication is just something i admire so much and i've been i was thinking about how i've actually started four podcasts over the years but none of them have

made it anywhere near the ballpark of 200 episodes i don't i don't think i ever made it to anywhere near a hundred. So I really applaud you and your long-term dedication to this podcast and to this field of knowledge that you're building and contributing to, which is mind over finger. It's really amazing. Thank you, Jennifer. Well, I wanted to start off with some questions that you might ask a typical guest on this show, even though your listeners might think they know everything about you. There's nothing wrong with a little refresh. So would you mind sharing just a little bit about your background and how you got to where you are both as a musician, but also as the person who created Mind Over Finger? Yes, absolutely. And as I shared with Jennifer before

we started recording, I did not prepare for this at all. So it's going to feel very fresh. I don't know what you're going to ask. So this is fun. I'm excited. Well, you know, for me, I've told that story on other podcasts. So if some of my listeners have heard it before, I apologize for the repetition. But for me, mind over finger really comes from my childhood and the fact that my mother was a musician. Both my parents were musicians. But I primarily did my practicing with my mother, who was a pianist. And she would guide my practicing with such intentionality. and walk me through what I now call adversity training and, you know, advanced mindset training, all of these things. And as I went about on this journey, I was lucky enough to work with

a violin teacher that I had for many years who was just wonderful and kind and someone with such enthusiasm and awe for life and someone that would encourage us to love everything, food, literature, nature, poetry, but also, of course, music and all kinds of music, jazz, rock, all of it. He was a real hippie, but he was wonderful and really knew how to guide me in musical adventures in terms of, you know, this phrase. What is this phrase about? what does it feel like what does this sound like so I feel like I had I'm so grateful I had this approach of mindfulness to to music and not just violin centered but if you fast forward I got to a musical journey that's very common you you go to college and then after college you go to grad

school and then I went to New World Symphony and along the way I picked up like everybody else pieces of knowledges and wisdom here and there and discovered mindfulness and exploration and started taking auditions and through that developed a lot of ideas on performance preparation on mindset on adversity training on audition preparation through working with dawn green and then as i started teaching and had my professional life you know we have the ups and downs and like everybody else I had my fair share of failures and and hardship and through that came a really strong you know desire to figure things out both for myself and for my students but also I would say especially the hardships shaped this this vision of

trying to make music that the music industry the music world that just a little bit more kind a little bit more mindful and through this mission of really helping my students develop the skills that I didn't have a chance to learn early on to come up with a system that would help them practice better, but also the tools that will help them just be happier and show up as more centered and happy individuals and humans. That's amazing. It's such a life's work to compile this knowledge from your own experience. and as I recall also it sounds like the dissertation project you did at Northwestern was also a crucial piece so maybe you could just talk about that a tiny bit as well yeah absolutely

I was teaching at the time at a small college here in the Chicago area and I could really see how the students were struggling with practicing with practicing basics and I really was I call it I was on this mission to figure out a way to help them. Because when you spend only one hour with a student a week, there's only so much you can teach them. So you're supposed to teach them the basics of violin playing, but how do you teach them how to learn how to perform? How do you teach them how to practice? Even just the art of practicing itself is, it's so intricate. And so if some students showed up and were lacking in those areas of basic basic knowledge on how to tackle the work and then how to prepare for performance there is just no time in one hour lesson to share

all of this knowledge so I wanted to develop a system that would help them approach that in a systematic way but also sort of a heart-centered way rooted in in mindfulness and what I would call now more rooted in being before doing. So that's the language that I have now that I didn't have at the time, because as we know, the concepts, they keep growing with us. But it was so wonderful for me to have this opportunity to be at Northwestern and do this research while teaching so I could really experience what it was like, what the material, the impact that the material would have on the students. And also, you know, take my experience and make sure that all of that wasn't just assumptions that I was making that was working for me, but there's

actually science behind it and it makes sense. So, and yeah, overall, it was such a wonderful experience and I'm really glad to see that the concepts seem to work. So that's been fun. it's so amazing so I wanted to ask you about the podcast there's so much to talk about here choosing to go on this journey to start the podcast you know now doing it for six years the first question that comes to mind for me is you must have interviewed I know not all of your podcast episodes are interviews some of them are just you talking on the episode but I'm guessing you've done, what, 150 interviews, something like that. So you've talked to so many of the great performers and pedagogues living today. And I was wondering, are there any insights or

takeaways or conversations that stand out to you as things that you think about regularly? hmm I mean so many come to mind you know I would say across the board what I'm finding is that it's a shared human experience and I have clients from all sorts of backgrounds professionals to soloists to amateurs and it's the same issues it's the same insecurities it's the same fears it's the same stressors and I think I just want all of us to remember that we're all just humans having an experience together so it's really interesting for me to see from guest to guest So much of that same insight comes because, you know, everybody experiences performance anxiety and it's always rooted in what we're thinking and our feelings of inadequacies and our fear of judgment and our fear of failure. So there's always these common themes. And I feel that, I mean, some of my favorite insights is so much to think about. Always seems to be when people take the time to go back to why they love music and they can shed the fear of failure and they can shed the fear of judgment from others and really get back to why am I doing this?

what is enjoyable about this what is my contribution with this this is when they can sort of step away from all of the fears and they keep going with enthusiasm I don't know if what I'm saying makes any sense at all because it's really hard to pinpoint I mean there's so many episodes I remember Paul Ellison talking about how he teaches the human not just it's not just a bass player it's a human learning base and i that's what i want every teacher to think about when they're teaching that's what i want to think about when i'm coaching or teaching um i mean they're just such great wisdom but overall i think it the message seems to be what is it that you're trying to say who is your authentic self and show up that way

it's so beautiful and it's nice to hear that there are all these common themes that emerge and I've noticed that too I've listened to so many episodes of the podcast and it's it is very humanizing because I think there can be this tendency to put people we admire on a pedestal and sort of imagine that they have an experience of life that's so different from ours on the inside and of course everyone's different in many ways including in talents or natural aptitudes and things like that but to know that the types of thought patterns or the ways that we need to practice internal discipline are really common regardless of how far someone has gone in their career that's really helpful to be reminded of again and again yeah yeah and

like for me, I think even just starting this podcast, I'm a huge introvert. So people think that because I have a podcast, I'm a real extrovert and it's easy for me to be in the presence of many people. But I think that because I'm an introvert, I really cherish these one-on-one conversations and the insight that I get with people and getting to speak with them and see how okay all of the things that I'm afraid of all of the things that I'm insecure about they're all going through it I think it makes it feel so much more um it normalizes it for me absolutely and so I wanted to ask you a bit about your journey as a podcaster, but really as an entrepreneur, because we've seen so much in the classical music

and arts culture world change over the last several years. I think there's probably a lot more entrepreneurship that's happening after the pandemic and that whole experience. But you really started before then with the podcast and with deciding that you want to put your voice out there, not just as a violinist, but as someone who has something to say and to offer to the community of musicians. And I wonder, what was that like for you at the beginning? How did that feel to embrace a new aspect of your professional identity? And how does it feel now, six years into it. Yeah. Entrepreneurship is such an interesting journey. It's not easy, but I forget the quote. If someone remembers it, but you know, sometimes the,

the desire to do something is stronger than the fear of doing it. And I think that's what it was for me for the podcast. And all of these little seeds that were planted in my head throughout, you know, I love podcasts. I love listening to podcasts. And I would always have different sets of questions in my head whenever I would listen to a podcast. And I'd be like, no, stop talking. Let them answer or ask them this other question. And I started to realize that I would have these awesome conversations with colleagues at work, and I wanted to share them with my students. And I would just always wish I had a recording device with me when I was talking with colleagues

and we would get into these deep conversations. And I have a hard time with small talk. So for me, I always go for the deep stuff. And it was not easy to find the courage to do it. And even you, as my coach, knew this, that for the longest time, I only had interviews because I was afraid to share my own ideas. And it was easier at first to present other people's ideas than start speaking with my own voice.

But again, I would say I was extremely afraid and I knew nothing about entrepreneurship, but the desire was stronger. than the fear and it kept getting stronger and stronger and then as I start you know started implementing also my systems in my teaching I saw like I want to share this there are things I want to share and there are platforms out there there are schools I actually offered a lot of the things I'm teaching now I was trying to offer them as courses and universities and they were like sorry our curriculum is so full already there's no time to teach our students how to practice which is always funny to me but and then I realized wait this is you know 2020 2019 at the time when I

started thinking perhaps having an online course of some sort of online business and the only gatekeepers that really exist now are the ones we create in our heads literally anyone can go and start sharing their messages. There's just no more obstacle. We have the internet, we have technology. And so I think that it's possible for everyone, but it is very scary because every time I say something, I can be judged. And I probably am. And probably some people might disagree with me on certain topics. So you're always exposing yourself to criticism and judgment and there just comes a point where you know I feel like we all go through this this human journey and we feel a calling to certain things and and for me that's what it was like I

said the hardships and the learnings and the lessons really shaped who I am and guided my reflections. And I really felt like I wanted to share this. So yeah, there's a lot more people right now, for sure, because everybody is seeing that it's possible. I think for me, it started with seeing people like you, people like Jason Heath, who had podcasts. And I thought, wow, like, anyone can have a podcast, I could have a podcast. And so I think that people see that you can do it but it's not easy you it's you're gonna have to face a lot of your own insecurities and fears and and it's a lot of work in time and effort and it's also a lot of money excuse me it's you know I know that for me once I discovered coaching I believed in the value of

coaching. So I invest in coaching. And also there's some costs associated with it. But I think that for me, last thing I'll say about it is the things I discover about myself through this journey is really amazing to find out what I'm capable of, what I'm capable of learning. And I feel like it's so exciting to discover all of these new areas of having to write having to market having to learn how to do graphic designs and do video editing you know what I mean so for me it's I would call it almost like a self-realization like what else am I capable of as I continue on this journey so it's not easy but it's really rewarding I hope I answered the question absolutely and it makes me think of a question that I've had in my mind I don't know that I've

actually asked a musician this but I've sort of been wanting to which is do you think it's more similar or more different being an entrepreneur compared to being a professional musician oh that's a good idea uh that's a good question i mean on the logistical level of course it's very different but i think it's the same in the sense of you just you have to do it to get good at it you have to practice every day you have to hop on stage when you think you're not ready and you have to release an episode when you think it's not NPR quality and um you have to learn as you go you have to deal with awesome people less awesome

people yeah oh that's a great question I mean there that would be an interesting comparison to make and go more in detail but I think that um the similarities are very striking yeah yeah yeah I've thought about it for myself because you know I've spent a lot of time in entrepreneurship and more recently spending time on my artistic projects and I'll definitely have moments where it's like oh my gosh it's the same thing and then I'll have moments where it's like this is completely different from anything I've ever experienced. Or like you think you sign up for a performance and, you know, 10 minutes before you go on stage, you're like, why do I do this to myself? And then you hop off stage and

think, oh, next time I'm going to do this. And you're already thinking about the next performance. And I think it's, you know, every time I launch something, I'm thinking, why am I doing this to myself. And then after I'm always thinking about, okay, what next will I create? Yeah. Yeah. So that constant meeting of the edge of our growth and being with discomfort and looking for how we want to keep moving forward, I think is for me, it feels very similar and really all aspects of creation are pursuing something that we care about and it's it's really so rewarding and also so humbling to constantly feel like oh my gosh I've been doing this for so long and still this is hard or still this thought pattern is is showing up or I still haven't learned this you

know this line of music even though I should have by now or whatever it is yeah it's like how am I so different and yet still the same. Exactly. Exactly. Absolutely. Wow. Yeah. And so I know that for you, a really big development within Mind Over Finger was going from the podcast to sharing your methods and your approach with musicians really all over the world to help them refine their abilities in the practice room. And so that performing on stage can have a better more satisfying, more trusting feeling. So I would love to hear about that. And I believe you have a new class of the Music Mastery Experience opening up soon. So maybe you can share a little bit about what it's like to sort of create your own teaching environment and what kinds of students

come to you, what it's been like for them. Absolutely. And I think that I can't talk about Music Master Experience or MME without talking about your part in it. Because when we first got in touch and I started working with you, I had all of these ideas, all of these desires, but I wasn't really, I didn't really know how it would materialize. And at some point you said, we're going to figure it out. And I just thought, okay, I'm just going to trust her. She'll figure adult she knows what she's talking about and at that time I enrolled in your program a six-figure musician and and we did the guidance that you offered was so great I mean it I it would not be what it is right now had I not worked with you for sure and it might not even exist so through

all of the reflections and the guidance and you know the things that we did in the program in success I was really able to start seeing how oh I think I want to do it this way I want to do it this way and what I really wanted was to create a space where I could share information about how to practice more mindfully but all of this rooted in these mindsets as well that are part of what I developed in my dissertation was the deep practice model which is a combination of practicing techniques and mindsets and the way that they work together produces, in my opinion, and I think in the opinion of my clients, better results. But then also as I was working on the dissertation, in the middle of writing it, it started to morph in my head and that aspect of

self-compassion was taking much more space. But for those who are in academia, they know that you don't change a dissertation halfway through it because everybody, you know, everybody's approved done your chapters you can't change it and in my mind I thought well once I'm done with this dissertation I can expand so for me the idea was to go into all yes practicing performance preparation but the person and the mindset and talking about confidence and talking about how to make decisions and and things like this how to be a highly effective human who plays music And I know that for me, your program, 6FME, at that time, watching you coach and the structure of your program, I was like, well, this is a really good structure.

This works. I'm enjoying it. And also, I said that in the introduction, but your coaching style really spoke to me. And I thought, this is who I'm emulating. This is really rooted in kindness. and I mean you're extremely brilliant of course so I think the that program 6FMU was a huge inspiration for the structure and I think that that's what's helpful about coaching is how a coach a guide will help you crystallize your vision when you're not quite sure how

the pieces of the puzzles come together you know you you might have fragments of a melody in your head and then your composition teacher helps you execute it on paper and something that works for an orchestra or a choir and that's that's kind of what you were for me and um so MME I mean I'll never forget where I was when I shared with you what I think what I thought the the name of it should be and um I was like it's music it's about mastery but it's going to be an experience. What do you think? It's like, what do you think about music mastery experience? And you're like, Oh yeah, I love it. So, um, so that's really what it is, is really about the journey to mastery. But right. We know that the journey to mastery is,

it's about the journey itself. It's about who we become on the journey to mastery and mastery is whatever you define it as there's no one set standard for mastery so it's everyone's own journey to their own mastery and we're sharing this experience together and it's music but you know things evolve and for me I feel like it is more and more about so much more than just music as I said it's the human who's playing music and so it's been wonderful this is going to be the sixth round and six since round four what I decided to do is that once you're in the program you're in forever and for me it was a combination of two things is you know I would have the program for a few months then it would end and then we wouldn't see each other anymore and I thought

that was so sad so we become family through this shared experience and then we wouldn't see each other. And also, I feel like once the participants had the basic information that I share at the beginning of the program, we were ready to have bigger discussions. And then the program was over. So I decided that why, why end this? So we'll just bring more people to the family. But once you're in, you stick around. And then yes, we go back to basics once in a while. It's good to remind ourselves of you know good practicing hygiene and performance preparation and all of that but then the rest of the time we just keep covering topics that help us operate as as individual like confidence like facing doubt creating big things in our lives things like this

so so yeah music mastery experiences uh it's really my baby it's so much fun and the participants are so amazing and um and it really is a space for people to come where they are safe to talk about the real issues that we can't you know sometimes we don't feel I mean let's face it we don't feel comfortable sharing those things with our colleagues at work how inadequate we feel and our frustrations and our fears and this is the space where the musicians can come and we can unpack it and tackle it and offer support to each other and, and really get the insight that's within us to get to the next level, whatever endeavor we're pursuing. It's a really amazing program.

And I say that from personal experience as well. I think I was in one of your early rounds and then I joined again for the forever. ever ever yes I was like obviously I want that and um and and right like people are in and out and that's what I like about it too is that I know that for me coaching is something that I will always need and always have but at times we tackle different projects and then we we feel great for a minute and then stumbling blocks happen then mme is the place to come back to if you need support in that time so that's that's what i love about it too is that you know participants they can really hop in and out at whenever the need is there for them it's such a valuable resource

you know and again i didn't go to music school but in getting to know you and learning what you're all about and what you're creating with your program it really made me realize gosh I never learned anything about how to practice and you know you and I were working together during a time when I was exploring a lot of new facets in my creative life too and coming to you and getting resources for you know even thinking about things in a very fundamental way about how to practice, how to learn music. It was so helpful for me, even if I wasn't, I don't think I was always ready to implement every single thing that you taught because there are so many, but I know that my philosophy and working with coaches or taking a program

for my own sanity, my philosophy has always been, if I get one good nugget from it, then it's worth it. Because sometimes that's all I'm able to take in at a given time. Or sometimes I have every intention of showing up for every session, but then life happens and I don't. And then I don't watch the replays or whatever it is. And I think it can be really common for us to sort of get into a self-punishing cycle around that in terms of like, oh, I didn't fully take advantage of, of this opportunity. And therefore I'm not worthy of doing things like this again. And for me, it's, it's a form of, of self-compassion and kindness to, to really look at, well, what did I take away? What was I ready to integrate at that moment? And whenever I get

emails from you or see what's happening on Voxer, it's, it's just so nice to have this additional moment of, oh, yes, this is still here for me. And these are things that I can continue to lean into as I need them. So it's such a valuable resource. And I think it's so powerful that as a community within music, I think there's a lot more acceptance and enthusiasm for the idea that we should be lifelong learners. Like it's kind of a silly thing to assume that we should have learned everything we possibly need by the age of 22 or 26 or whatever it is, or whenever our last degree ended. And to have these ongoing opportunities to learn from great teachers who might live in a totally different part of the country or the world and to keep on improving as

our maturity is also evolving. I think it's such a wonderful development that is happening that you are a part of. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like these reminders are so important. I need them all the time. And that's one of the reasons I love coaching too. Every time I coach, as I'm saying something, I know I'm the first one who needs to hear the message. I am my first and most needy client and it and excuse me it's one of the one of these mindsets too in in the deep practice model which is that beginner's mind attitude which has always come back to keep that beginner's curiosity and enthusiasm but also monitor these fundamentals it's so easy to forget it and that's why i love coaching i forget where i heard this but someone was saying how you can't see the label

from inside the bottle so you need you know the coach to to show you to read the label for you and it's for me I feel like things happen so much faster when I have the guidance and someone who shows me the inner works of my mind you know it's so true and you know I've been working with coaches for oh my gosh so long like over 10 years um and sometimes I have this almost arrogance where I have a challenge and I'm like, I can figure this out on my own because I've grown so much and I don't, I don't need to go to the coach for this one. And then maybe I do just for good measure or, or for whatever reason. And I'll get a perspective that is totally unexpected to me or a perspective that reflects back to me how I'm in a pattern. That's very familiar that I thought

I had outgrown but is still right there and it's just uh it like you said it's sort of wherever we go there we are and that you know no matter how much we grow there's still you know the same version of us that is maybe circling around the same struggles and of course we're evolving simultaneously and we're still us with our our unique makeup of of experiences and patterns and all of that. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So a question for you, as you reach this milestone, I know you have no intention of slowing down when it comes to mind over finger. Are there any wishes or desires that you have for the future for any aspect of, of the mind over finger category? Oh, that's a good question. Um, I just,

i see it continue to grow as i continue to grow and i hope that i can um reach more people of course and that what i really would love to be able to help with really is make the classical music community a place where there's a lot of understanding and there's a lot of support and camaraderie. It's hard to say that word in English when you're French. You're doing great. And where it's okay to talk about things, where there's more kindness, where, let's face it, things are still harsh. It's harsh everywhere. It's harsh in every environment. I I mean, every time I watch the news, I feel like, how are things not getting better?

Come on, people, right? But I do hope that they can get a little bit better. And I hope that I can be an instrument of sharing that message. So I hope that I can continue to impact the lives of my current clients. And I hope that I can help, of course, and reach more people with these concepts because I see I just see so much suffering and you know another thing I mean I didn't talk about I didn't share this but for me as a kid I was bullied a lot so bullying is something that really shaped the person that I am and it wasn't until my mid-20s like even late 20s that I saw how it

would show up in the way that I felt and the way that I was, you know, feeling such a strong need to protect myself and really seeing how there's such a need for discussions on these types of topics of how everyone is suffering in their own way. How can we help each other? How can we overcome these traumas and so I think that for me that's why this became so I call it a calling it really is how as I was unpacking this effect of the bullying and how you know how it shaped me and I'm seeing the suffering out there of of other people I mean some people were bullied by their teachers that was not the case for me and I'm really grateful for that um actually by the time i got a teacher who yelled at me i was strong enough to take it so

thankfully it's okay but i know that other people were traumatized by him i made it through um but but i think you know what i mean right it's it's like for me it when i started to understand things and i started to unpack my own trauma my own suffering and i saw the effect that was having on me, I thought, like, I want, when I see suffering, I feel this need to go and help. So I think that's what I see for Mind Over Finger. I just hope that it's a positive impact that can reach as many people as possible. Well, I have no doubt that you're already having that impact. And, you know, I know that you're already reaching a lot of people and that will only continue to grow. And I mean, something I

remind myself of is no matter how many people we're reaching if we are having an impact on the ones or the very few that we are working with closely that still has a world of impact and I think it's so meaningful to to even just try to be in a position to help that way so so you're doing it and and it's it's an act of vulnerability too of putting your ideas forward or what you were talking about of the question of how do I even organize this material it's it takes a leap of faith because we can't perfect it in the absence of other people to see how it's actually working with them so yeah so I think it's I think it's just so admirable that you've been on this journey and um being in your world seeing what's going on

for other participants in the Music Mastery experience, there's no doubt in my mind that you have created a beautiful culture that's built on kindness and compassion and self-reflection and curiosity. And as you said, really honoring the whole human, because of course, the music we make is a reflection of the whole self. And it's really hard to separate out just that one facet without considering the fuller picture of who we are. So yeah, I think it's amazing. You're doing all of those things. I'm trying.

You're doing it, you know, we all do our best and it's a continual journey. For sure. Well, before we wrap up, I have to ask you a few rapid fire questions. Yes, you do. And we haven't discussed what these are, so it's going to be a real surprise.

Um, okay. One question I wanted to ask you is how do you maintain peak form while juggling family life, lots of playing opportunities, all of the mind over finger, um, projects, as well as, you know, many other things that you need to do in your life. How do you, how do you do it? Oh, I'm glad you asked this question because I, I love a great Google calendar, But I love talking about this because I feel like figuring out a way to organize your schedule that works for you. It's an art that I keep perfectioning and changing. And so for me, the way that I do it is really detailed planning and calendaring. and for some people I know it probably sounds like a nightmare to plan this way but for me

it works really well I have a training I have a whole training inside MME on how to calendar how to use your calendar this way and I make lists of all of the things that need to be done and then I schedule them and I put them in my schedule and what I find is that in as much as I'm someone who likes to sit down and I can focus on the same thing for I could sit down and you know do homework for nine hours without stopping like I can do this type of thing but I really realize that for me what seems to work better is to spread things over time and plan ahead of time kind of the same way that I always tell people if you're preparing for for a gig don't practice the repertoire the day before start you know several days ahead so you

can break it out in smaller sections so for me sorry i forget this is rapid fire let's make that rapid it's my google calendar it's that's the secret podcast so you can do whatever you want that's right that's true that's true so so in my google calendar that's what i do and and really intentional planning of, okay, this is, this is really will require this many hours of practicing and I need to be in that type of state to do good work. So I'm not going to practice that X hour. I'll plan to practice at this hour and to practice at this hour, I need to do this later. And so I plan definitely days, if not weeks ahead of time. Wow.

Amazing. All right. Another question for you. What makes practicing most enjoyable for you? Are there any strategies that your listeners can try at home to make practicing more enjoyable or meaningful? This might be a tough question for you because you have so many strategies, but. i do and i've shared them on the podcast before like the joyful practice challenges are places

where i've shared what what i enjoy but i think what makes it most fun for me is i'll do a backup just a um preambule to this too is i shared in one of the latest podcast episode about how you have to be rooted in why so you have to know why you're doing something so even when you don't want to do it you can remember why actually yeah I do want to do it like I don't want to practice right now but I actually do want to win this audition therefore yeah I can say that I do want to go practice I don't feel like it but what I want is this outcome therefore I go practice So I would say this is kind of where it starts. But once you're in the practice room, we don't want to suffer through it. So I like to sort of find all sorts of ways to make it fun. If the flowers are nice and they smell good, they have to smell good. I'll have flowers in my office. I like hot water so I have a an amber mug that keeps it at exactly the temperature that I like

um I you know I make sure I got the equipment and everything to be comfortable but then once I practice I like to set many goals and many challenges and I'll make myself learn a passage in a given amount of time or I'll try to come up with crazy silly stupid drills to learn it that's not just the good old regular metronome build-up which I like also um so it's how can I fool myself into having fun but in a way you don't fool yourself because you're intentionally figuring out ways to make it more fun uh but I think for me the the gamification of it is um is what works And of course, I use my deep practice model, which makes it easier. Sometimes I forget to use it, believe it or not.

And then I have to remember like, oh, wait, you came up with it. You should use it. So then when I use it, it really works. That's amazing. I love that. Well, you know, I think it's, I know I'm not supposed to interject my thoughts during rapid fire, but I do it all the time. You know, I had this realization not long ago that I have this association with writing that it's hard. I don't enjoy it. Yes, I've done so much of it, but I never wanted to be a writer. I never loved writing. And, and yet I, you know, I, I do write for the various things that I do.

And you're so good at it too. Oh, thank you. So, but I realized, wow, I'm carrying around this attitude towards it. That's not making it any better. It's just reinforcing how much I don't like it. And yet, if I have this desire to do more of it, what happens if I start to shift that? And because I went through a similar pattern around things related to playing the piano, things related to composition, things related to singing, where I just noticed I had this sort of calcified attitude towards that as a project. And I experienced how just alleviating that attitude contributed to so much growth and so much more belief in myself and therefore so much more like potential to explore. And yes, more enjoyment. It didn't mean it invalidated all the boring parts or all the frustrating parts, but it sort of put it in a new context. So it sounds like that's what so much of the practice sort of framework is for you is both the physical context of your room and making sure you have the things that you enjoy there and also having the attitude of how do we make this fun? How do we stay centered on the goal, on the reason for it?

How do we find in the moments of detail, different ways to stay engaged and not just be kind of going through the rote repetitions without intentionality? Yeah. And one thing I love is really working with that timer and say, I have five minutes to do this. You gave me this one. I love that you have. it's so close by. And what that reminds me of is that it's not going to be perfect. I mean,

I was talking about this in one of the last episodes of the podcast where you have to be ambitious with the long-term, but realistic with the short-term. I'm not going to sound like Gil Shaham in this practice session, but I can make that passage a little bit better. If I set the scope too big, then I'm only creating suffering for myself and creating frustration because my expectations are just not appropriate for the context. So I think it's, we want to adjust our expectations to the context and our current skills. So for me, it's, okay, seven minutes, make it better. And then by making sure that I'm set on something that is more realistic, that fosters more positive thinking. And I'm really set on making it better, so I'm

efficient. But if I'm thinking, oh, it needs to be perfect, then I start to spiral with negative thoughts. And this is when it becomes really excruciating to practice this way. So one of the ways that, I don't know if it makes it fun, but at least it makes it not not fun, is to make sure that okay what is appropriate right now in terms of expectations and how can i be efficient about it and just be objective and and detached emotionally in terms of the way that i talk to myself so so for me that that idea of improving it i mean right everybody says that improvement not perfection or i forget the exact quote but progress progress not perfection so i think that for me, that's, like I said, I don't know if it makes it more fun, but at least it doesn't make

it less fun. Well, that's a win right there, right? Amazing. Well, I guess one final question, which is, is there any message that you would like listeners to take away from your journey or from the overall philosophy behind mind over finger yes um what's coming up for me right now is developing the habit and it's not always easy to listen and trust your intuition listen to and trust your intuition it took me years to realize that and I feel like the younger generation they're much better at this than than I was but I think I'm still from a generation where you just did what others did before you I mean you want to go in music you do you go to college you do this

you do this and then once you graduate these are the options and I think that that's not how life is and there were many outliers before and I feel like the younger generations is is more of a generation of outliers they they understand that a little bit better but it's still scary for ourselves to to ask them ourselves questions because when we start to ask ourselves what we want and what we dream about it's scary because we might have to face failure we might have to be uncomfortable we might be judged so a lot of us don't even ask the questions like for many years I didn't even ask what I really really wanted it was more like okay what can I do so I think I would encourage everyone to ask the the hard questions like what is it that you want and

and listen to the intuition when it answers then your brain will freak out for sure but but listen to your intuition along the way and understand that fear and doubt uncertainty discomfort all gonna be on the journey with you they're gonna be a constant part of the journey it doesn't mean anything went wrong it means you're doing it right this is exactly what happens when you're moving forward but when we can accept that and we accept that those things are part of the journey then i think we give ourselves much better chance at a life that feels realized or fulfilled beautifully said well that's great advice for all of us and sometimes actually listening to our intuition produces answers that are very inconvenient or not the ones we wanted.

But you're so right. Having that moment of truth with ourselves is one of the most valuable gifts that we can give to ourselves. So I love that that's really a core principle behind all the things that you do and that you're putting out into the world. So congratulations, Renee, episode 200 you are the perfect guest for this episode i'm so honored that you asked me to have this conversation with you i'm so grateful that you accepted and said yes like i shared before you were such an integral part of this i mean you're someone that i've modeled and drew inspiration from and i'm just so grateful that you came in my life and um yeah thank you it really means a lot that I can celebrate this with you.

Thank you. There you have it. Thank you for joining me today. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with me, masterfully led by the wonderful Jennifer Rosenfeld. And if you want to join in the celebration with me, please send me a dm or an email at mindoverfinger at gmail.com to let me know what episode was your favorite which concept really struck you over the last 200 episodes if the podcast had an impact on

you i would love to hear from you i would love to hear what changed what inspiration you got from my guests or from the concepts I shared in my solo episodes and what it created for you in your life and your musical journey. And to spread the celebration, please share this episode with friends and fellow musicians, anyone you think would enjoy this show. I really appreciate your support. Also, don't forget the doors to the Music Master Experience are open right now. So if you want to get unstuck, if you want to get clarity, if you want support and tools and an amazing community. If you're looking for results that will blow your mind, you're gonna love this program. Head over to mindoverfinger.com to join today. All right, that's what I have for

you this week. Until next time, much love going your way, and à bientôt! Thank you.