The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 202 Lara St. John: Creating Change: Ensuring Safety & Equity in Classical Music

Starting point is 00:00:00 You're listening to the Mind Over Finger Podcast, episode number 202. Welcome to the Mind Over Finger Podcast, where we dive into the world of mindful music making, peak performance, and crafting a purpose-driven life and career. I'm your host, violinist, certified performance and life coach for musicians, and your guide to unlocking your full potential, Dr. René-Paul Gaultier. Hi, everyone. I hope you're doing great as you're tuning in. What I have for you today is, I think, a particularly important episode. And I do want to let you know that we will be touching on sensitive topics in today's conversation.

Starting point is 00:00:46 I'm really happy to welcome back to the show, violinist and advocate Lara St. John, to discuss a topic that has been prominent over the last few months in the classical music sphere, the devastating effects of sexual abuse in our community and the inadequate response of organizations to it. We have, of course, heard about many specific events over the past several years. And as you might know, a recent article referring to a situation at the New York Philharmonic harmonica was the catalyst for that conversation to grow rapidly and for a mobilization to shape up. The article I'm referring to was written by Sammy Sussman and was published on vulture.com on April 12, 2024. I have a link to the article in the show notes. I highly recommend you read it.

Starting point is 00:01:36 And I'm including information from the article here to give you a little bit of background. This article describes how horn player Kara Kaiser was allegedly drugged and raped by two members of the New York Philharmonic back in July 2010. Kara had won a position as assistant principal and utility horn with the Philharmonic earlier that year and was, as such, not tenured. As you might know, to win that type of position is a feat in itself for anybody. But to put you in context, if you're not familiar with the type of challenges women often have to face in the orchestral world, she was only the second woman to win a job in the Philharmonic's brass section in the organization's nearly 200-year history. Amanda Stewart was a trombonist at the New York Phil at the time. She was the only other woman in the brass section, and she was also new and not tenured. and she was the only colleague who publicly supported Kara's story. Sadly, both women were denied tenure after speaking out.

Starting point is 00:02:46 The two accused tenured members were fired in 2018, but they were reinstated in 2020 after appealing to the union, which decided in their favor. They played an euphemonic until this latest article came out in April 2024, after which they were suspended again. and this investigation is still ongoing. Now, why did this particular article create such a whirlwind? There had already been rumors about the situation in the community, multiple rumors, and there had been articles about the situation already back in 2020 that I remember reading. There have also

Starting point is 00:03:28 been multiple incidents involving famous, highly regarded musicians over the years that generated a lot of anger and frustration. So I think we were already on the verge of a tipping point. And what I think was different this time is that thanks to the thorough journalistic work of Sammy Sussman, we got all of the shocking details of what happened then and how both Amanda Stewart and Kara Kaiser were treated in the aftermath. And this vivid picture that was painted, coupled with the dedication of several advocates, like Laura St. John, to keep the conversation going, generated a passionate response from our community. Sussman wrote his article based on interviews with Kaiser, her friends and colleagues, and law enforcement officials.

Starting point is 00:04:18 He also reviewed more than 200 pages of documents from the Vail Police Department in Colorado's 5th Judicial District Attorney's Office. Sexual misconduct in the class of musical music world is something that we hear about more and more as people come forward and speak up, thankfully. And I think we have reached a point where we say no more. And thanks to the advocacy of people who have been vocal on the topic, this story has become a catalyst for things to start moving at a faster pace, finally, or at least I hope. I'm thinking of people like my guest today, Lara St. John. People like Catherine Needleman, who's been writing about equality and, as she puts it, saying the quiet part out loud for years. And the many more courageous

Starting point is 00:05:10 women who have come forward so far. This story shook me and shook everyone I've been speaking with. And it was really important for me to bring this conversation here on the Mind Over Finger podcast because one of my main missions with Mind Over Finger is to help create an environment where it's safe for all musicians to evolve, where everyone is given a fair chance, where everyone has the freedom to pursue artistic fulfillment without harm. Now, having shared all this, let's dive into my conversation with Lara. Lara was my guest already for episode 85 of the podcast. In that episode, we discussed several aspects of practicing and performance preparation, as well as her own experience of sexual abuse at the Curtis Institute. In today's conversation,

Starting point is 00:06:02 Lara and I talk about the power dynamics and gender issues in the classical music world. We discuss the context and impact of sexual abuse, the lack of representation, and how women often don't get the support they need. Lara shares her own experiences and she stresses the need for institutions to step up and create a safe space for everyone by being transparent and having clear steps to handle sexual harassment and assault. Finally, we touch on the difficulty of addressing these issues in a society that often prefers to stay silent. I hope this episode proves to be helpful for you. Be sure to listen until the end, where I will share resources that I believe can be useful, including information about great initiatives that are happening here in Chicago

Starting point is 00:06:54 and being spearheaded by members of the Chicago Federation of Musicians. Without further ado, let's dive into my conversation with Lara St. John. Lara St. John, thank you so much for being here today. Lara, you're a powerful advocate for victims of abuse, and you have shared your own experiences to bring your awareness of this issue. And I feel like your insights and dedication to changes are invaluable. And I'm very grateful that we're able to have this conversation today. Thanks for having me. Yeah, it's important. Very important to talk about this. Yeah. Lara, can we start with talking about this complex dynamic of power and authority and vulnerability and how that works in our classical music field? yeah well i think there it kind of is a profession that as we all are beginning to know is rife with a lot of abuse um particularly child abuse because there are very few professions where you start so young i mean you know if you don't have like five-year-old accountants or you know

Starting point is 00:08:20 10 year old physicists. So, but of course, as you know, for violin, for cello, for piano, a little bit less so with the winds and voice, but you know, you have to start before basically six years old. And also a ridiculous amount of, I guess, deification or, or, or power. And in my opinion, way too much respect is given to people in positions of power over children and over student i mean at any age actually um and a lot of people have abused that power by you know trying to to take what they want from from from children from women to uh to i mean and also also some men obviously as we know but um yeah it's just it's it's really uh i guess it just kind of maybe attracts those people you know like uh for example stephen ships who's now in jail um for 40 years he

Starting point is 00:09:19 basically did what he wanted with all of his students and everybody just looked the other way um as you know i came out in 2019 about my own um rape as a child at the curtis institute in philadelphia and uh that was by my major teacher and it was done under threat of kicking out me and my brother from the school. So that amount of power, you know, I was 14 years old. What am I supposed to, I didn't know what to do. And so things had to happen. And of course it's a, it's basically, it's, it's, it's a life sentence once that kind of thing happens to you as a child. And it's really hard to deal with. I have spoken to many, many women. A lot of people reached out to me after that article in 2019 hundreds I would say with similar stories and I would say more than

Starting point is 00:10:11 half of them are no longer in the field so then you get these people that are like well where are the women you know and it's like well a lot of them get abused out of the field and it's just it's unfair that there isn't an even playing field for women in classical music they you know they're expected to just kind of i don't know deal with it somehow and what actually ends up happening to to a lot of people is that you know your love of music becomes ruined and so a lot of a lot of women just leave the profession and and that's that's really disturbing and it's it's a terrible thing because there's so much trauma attached to it there's so much trauma and also you know we're not getting that that creativity that that would have happened if they were dealt

Starting point is 00:10:59 an even playing field and so basically you end up with a lot of mediocre men in their place if you think about the places where i mean i guess violin is is more or less probably one of the most equal in gender but um if you look at conducting or composition or people in leadership positions it tends to be about 95% male. And that means that if we assume that basically talent is equal among the genders, that makes for, you know, 45% of those are mediocre men who have a very vested interest to keep women down because they know very well that they wouldn't have a job if women actually were given an equal playing field. So, you know, that's just something that we have to, it and all of it is is related you know it's all intertwined like violence against women

Starting point is 00:11:52 exclusion of women which happens a lot and and just and that and then the the lack of them it's it's all related and it's something that we're gonna have to just keep screaming from rooftops because you know I felt for a long time that I was kind of screaming into the void and now finally you know people are listening i mean i reported it to curtis when i was 15 years old and they mocked me they laughed at me the dean robert fitzpatrick um the present guy who's still the director astonishingly even though he um you know he lied to me he obfuscated he tried to bury everything he tried to shut up his alumni his name is roberto diaz he's the still the the president of that school um so you know even if publicly the guy did a whole bunch of really bad

Starting point is 00:12:48 stupid wrong things he still got his job because you know you can't there's a man in a position of power nobody can do anything so and you know my rapist uh even though everybody at curtis knew he taught till he died another 11 years and then he died happily in his own bed nothing ever happen to him so that's ideally what what what can now stop is that more people coming out is is helpful because it's never just one person these these men are they spend lifetimes doing this to to women and i heard from one woman actually i was sort of like jumping from one thing to another sorry about that but one woman got in touch with me and she said oh yeah he raped me for a whole year when I was 15. This is my guy. And that was in 1950. She was now 80. Well,

Starting point is 00:13:44 she'd be in her 90s at this point. But, you know, so he's been doing this his entire life. And yet nobody could do anything about it. There's so many great topics that you touched on that I really want to unpack and get into all of this. And what you just said, I think is a good starting point where this dynamic teacher-student is so well I don't want to say unique because it exists in other fields as well but this one-on-one relationship but there's so much I like the word that you use defecation there's so much idolation and we want to emulate these musicians that we see as so incredible and inspiring and there's this relationship that is in place where grooming can be done so easily exactly and when i feel like there's a lot of bias conscious and

Starting point is 00:14:43 unconscious too and i would love for us to open that door today so that people like me people working in institutions people working in unions we can all start to see where we contribute to the issue and where we can start to help because there are so many misunderstandings about what happens so this person it happened over a year a lot of people would wonder why but that's because there's a lack of understanding of this toxic, powerful context and circumstance. Can you talk to that a little bit about what are some of these common misunderstandings or these biases about sexual abuse in general that people might have? Well, one of the biggest problems I think is the institutions who do everything they can to protect themselves and the predators at the expense of

Starting point is 00:15:40 the students um you could see that with me with curtis for for 36 years uh they only finally apologized to me because i forced it i forced like them to get an external report done which found me entirely credible and horrific things happening at the school all these years and um so the institution i mean they would have loved it if i had just like got hit by a bus or something they probably would have thrown a party in the zimbalist room or some crap um as as you can see there's no love lost between myself and that school and I think it's for a pretty good reason um but yeah like you see the institutions what they do like the Cleveland Institute of Music for example everybody knew about Bill Prussell right but what they did was they just in 2007

Starting point is 00:16:24 and this is 11 years before the big article came out about him in the Washington Post they just paid for the student to go to another school so this is what the institutions do they remove the student or they remove the student from the learning position so then the student no longer has any kind of advantage so basically it's it's victim blaming at the highest level really and it's it's removing like it's getting rid of this like they just don't care about the students all they care about is their big fancy men and protecting the reputation of the institution So what I would like to do, me and Catherine Needleman and some other people who are very vocal about the lack of women, the abuse of women, and also the exclusion, what I'd like to do is make it so that the institutions, so that their reputation is enhanced when they do these things, when they actually say, oh, we should do background checks on these men. oh we should listen to women when there's rumors we should go check that out we should

Starting point is 00:17:27 they if i i would want them to to be proud of transparency and that's what i want to happen in my lifetime uh is for for these schools not not to be like just there's so much shoving under the carpet i mean you see it everywhere in canada as well you know montreal this the school at uh at McGill, all sorts of crap goes on there. And they've known about it for years. You know, Juilliard, everybody knew about Shapiro. Everybody knew about the clarinet player, whatever. Everybody knew about Bob Beezer. And he was still there until last year when Van Magazine came out about that big article about the composition department there. They wouldn't have done anything if it hadn't been for people finally, you know, using their voices.

Starting point is 00:18:16 so it's really a culture of silence and of victim blaming where where the victim ends up feeling like if they express themselves they will be punished for it right right and that's the whole point of what we're doing in music that's we're supposed to love this music and express ourselves and it gets you know frankly for for a lot of people it gets completely ruined i mean i've spoke to some women who who don't even listen to music anymore and uh you know for me I don't know maybe because I started so young I was two and a half that it didn't it didn't get abused out of me I guess because I continued in the profession or whatever but um you know you just I it's a slippery slope to think this way but at 14 years old I was on you know such an upward track and

Starting point is 00:19:07 then you know it just became about survival you know suicide attempts and and all sorts of stuff and I think what saved my life uh eventually was ridiculously enough um leaving Curtis as soon as I could when I was 17 and moving to the Soviet Union I mean I know that sounds kind of like really funny but it was it just got so much room between me and that stupid school that I was able to kind of pick myself up and start start again but you know if you think about it I was never I'm sure you and and many people who listen to this podcast like they're close friends and colleagues and everything were made in university um or at college or whatever I was never really allowed to have that situation you know like I had to leave because it was killing my mental state

Starting point is 00:19:59 uh just to have to see that person like a couple of times a week probably just like i mean i would memorize his schedule and try to avoid it but you know it was just it's it's you know and just to see that that went unpunished whereas i you know had to pick up the pieces i guess of my of my sort of wrecked childhood self and that's just not effing fair and I know that it's still happening in in various places in various schools and these schools are still doing the same damn thing and you know when it came out about Stephen Shipps this was a I know I'm jumping from person to person because I know so much about so many schools and so many people at this point but But then Michigan suddenly, like, spent a million dollars to put little windows in every room.

Starting point is 00:20:54 Why were they not there in the first place? You know, why are there locks on studio doors? Why are there not windows? Why are there, it's still the same situation. Royal Conservatory in Canada, there's locks on the doors and there's no windows. Same thing for McGill. Same thing for, well, University of Michigan until 2018. You know, the one place that's really doing it right, in my opinion, is Amsterdam, the conservatorium there.

Starting point is 00:21:20 Every studio is glass. It sort of is a transparent building. It was built that way because of a very brave girl, Masha Van Slotten, who did a complaint in 2001 about Jan Repko, who was kicked out of Amsterdam and, I guess, took a boat and got three more jobs in England for 20 more years. And his trial is coming up in July in London. um but that's because birmingham royal conservatory the royal college of music and cheathams in manchester which is actually for children not one of them picked up a phone and said hey you know amsterdam conservatory why did this man leave not one of them so 20 more years he had great fun abusing students and only now is he uh you know getting a bit of comeuppance and so because of

Starting point is 00:22:17 that when amsterdam conservatory rebuilt their their building they moved out of the old building and and built one but it was done with no locks with complete transparency and the head of the amsterdam conservatory there his name is uh oka weston um i think he's fantastic and like he's like i hear something i go talk to them i listen i this i that you know like he's sort of the shining beacon of hope in my opinion i think he's really great i i spoke to him i'm um yeah working on a documentary I'm kind of nearing the end of it now and I've gone and spoken to a lot of these people a lot of the women but also folks like him like you know he's doing it right people should see that it can be done right and I don't know what the hell is wrong with the states

Starting point is 00:23:03 honestly and Canada and actually England actually everywhere pretty much except for this one sort of conservatory in holland but you use the word transparency it feels like literal and figurative transparency are going to be is going to be the answer for this you also talked about survival and i would like for you to tell us more about what can we do i think some of us don't know what can we do when we hear from a friend from a colleague that they're experiencing this i feel that all of us should be more educated in a course of action what do we do well i mean ideally there is something in place that some sort of title nine officer or something like that at a school or at an orchestra that you can approach but the the

Starting point is 00:24:05 problem is a lot of these places are so small like if you think about curtis for example you wouldn't be able to talk to somebody without them knowing who without you know the problem is is that again these people have so much power that if it got back to them they would be able to blacklist you so that's why a lot of people do stay silent um my and it's understandable obviously it is you know you're whatever year old you are you know you're about to embark on a career which is very it's in a very small profession very rarefied and if your teacher you know tells his friends oh she's difficult to deal with or something like that that could afford you probably you know to lose auditions or to lose competitions and stuff like that it's so it's so prevalent that you could

Starting point is 00:24:51 be blacklisted and so easy for the people in power to do it that a lot of silence is achieved that way and i think if people know that this is happening um you know you can't you can't force people to come out about it because they see how hard it is you know and they they know that this may affect their career um but certainly to to listen and to you know i mean to try to help that person as much as possible because i can tell you it's hard as hell to go through that kind of thing from especially from your major teacher um especially if you're in a very vulnerable position which obviously i was as a child and from a poor family you know curtis is a full scholarship school that kind of power that one person can just kick you out so that's another

Starting point is 00:25:43 thing that these schools should do is they should have and this is amsterdam as well they should have team teaching so that no one person has complete power over any one student um you know i don't i don't see how that would be a bad thing in any case you know like it's always good to play for more than one person so all that kind of thing um curtis only last year made it a rule that you can't teach at home anymore um amsterdam did that in 2005 you know it should always be teaching one-on-one should always be in a studio situation in a school It should never be at someone's home where, you know, it's just so much more possible to to to abuse somebody if it's at a home and not in a studio situation. So then a bunch of piano teachers, they blame me publicly for them not being able to teach at Curtis anymore.

Starting point is 00:26:46 Gary Grafman, because he's in his 90s, he can't travel to Philadelphia. So he says it's my fault that he's no longer teaching at Curtis. Um, that being said, he also, you know, knew about all this stuff way back then. So I don't really care what he says. Um, and Yefim Bronfman has told a bunch of people that it's my fault and I don't know why he can't get his butt to Philadelphia, but for some reason it's my fault. So they no longer teach at Curtis, which is something that should have been a rule forever. You know, you shouldn't teach one-on-one at home and certainly not if it's children.

Starting point is 00:27:22 Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, I'm proud of that blame. They can blame me as much as they want. If they've got a problem with that, they shouldn't be teaching. And that really illustrates the importance of speaking up when one feels ready to do so, and how it can be life-changing for everybody else. And I feel like that's why it's important for us to really pay attention to you know classmates colleagues colleagues in school or colleagues and in the workplace that when they they show some signs or they use some words that we pay attention and we make sure we're there to support them emotionally and and also perhaps with

Starting point is 00:28:08 more than words but actions as well as we saw recently sometimes you get punished when you support someone after they've reported events right and and I think it might require a little more courage from all of us as a collective well one thing that gives me a little bit of hope actually is um I have the feeling well you know who Sammy Sussman is he was the one that that brought out the case against ships at University of Michigan and of course this most recent New York Magazine article about Kara Kaiser and Amanda Stewart the New York Phil about her drug rape there amanda stood up for her and so they denied both of them tenure and basically kicked out the women where the men were allowed to continue with their jobs and even got back pay so anyway that's

Starting point is 00:28:58 another story which i encourage everybody to go read that article because um it was it was those women were failed at every possible instance first by the da in colorado second by the new york phil third by the union the local 802 so it's a it's it's a terrible terrible story but it has got people talking so that in itself is very good sammy i spoke to for my film and he told me i think he's maybe 25 now i mean he's definitely he's like a totally different generation from me and he said that as opposed to the people who sort of knew about me but just well if it didn't affect them they didn't care right like it's like oh well you know i know this teacher does this to people but i'm a guy so it won't happen to me or you know he's not doing this to me so it's okay

Starting point is 00:29:48 i had a lot of that um he says that the younger people don't feel that way they feel as though if this is being done to somebody that is wrong like they have a much sort of greater sense of solidarity against the people in power so i mean i hope he's right i think he might be actually because uh i've i've seen that kind of reactions from younger people like they're like okay well this doesn't affect me but i don't want to be in an institution that allows this you know and that kind of reaction is what i want from everybody because then only together can people get together and go against these um these these men in in ridiculous amounts of position of power you saw it a little bit in cleveland institute this past year um how the student body they all

Starting point is 00:30:40 stood up for each other and i thought that was great i mean obviously the the the deed or whatever he calls himself president or something is um uh not not doing good things for that school shall we to put it very mildly and unfortunately it's kind of a mess right now but i was very impressed with the students to stand up for each other like that because obviously you know it was only a couple of the women that were being mistreated but they all as a student body stood up for each other so that's the kind of thing i really want to see happening yeah and you know you get these obviously the internet makes everybody a commentator and you get these comments that like you know oh well these people are just gonna um accuse men because they don't

Starting point is 00:31:30 like them or something like that this never happens i mean it it just doesn't happen you see what happens to people when they do come forward about these things and nobody would do that for fun nobody you know it's just certainly not um as as children which which happens a lot and you know it i think i think a lot of those those commentators are are men who are who are scared of you know losing their jobs or something like that and i'm kind of like well what's in your closet you know why are you saying stuff like this honestly and um as we saw also with the new york phil story um there are kind of quite a lot of complicit women as well which really does kind of hurt you know like in the in the wind section or whatever there were there were

Starting point is 00:32:27 people who uh who who blamed cara for getting drugged and raped and some of them were women um which is that's particularly disappointing when that happens but you know eventually she got her story out there and uh and it's it's certainly being talked about which is uh fantastic and actually next uh next week i'm leading a protest along with katherine needleman to get the uh new york phil to release her to dissolve her non-disclosure agreement because that's another thing these people do is they get women to sign these things so that they are effectively silenced for life and i mean it's just such a misuse of non-disclosure agreements it's it's ridiculous it's pathetic and you know and other other people who were abused or raped by the same

Starting point is 00:33:23 men are unable to speak and in the workplace now there definitely are a lot of trainings because of government regulations on what we should do how we should behave at work you know in regards to sexual harassment at work and what the recourses are if we feel that we've been a victim of sexual harassment at work some of the recourses are now made more easily available or at least there is some sort of procedure that seems to be in place that we are aware of but also then what happens once you put in once you start the chain of actions in the workplace and you put in an official complaint then what happens there's just no way to know because human beings are in charge of their procedures at that level and i'm hoping that

Starting point is 00:34:21 the events that we are being made aware of right now happening everywhere can just allow for things to change and for people to stop looking the other way and for people to stop trying to hide this i mean the i'll use that word again the transparency needs to be heightened everywhere what do you think well yeah i mean that's ideally that would be the case that somebody would be able to go to i don't know a title nine officer without any risk of retribution now retribution is the problem and so that's why so many people are silenced because they know that that if the teacher finds out they're going to be on the next jury they're going to be on the audition panel they're going to or their friends will you know it's really an old boys club buddy buddy kind of thing and especially

Starting point is 00:35:14 in you know the brass world uh in whims in um uh and a lot of the orchestral instruments it's it's very very heavily skewed male and that's not a pipeline problem that is a fact that you know they invite their friends and they you know don't allow for women to be part of this buddy buddy situation ever so yeah it's just um you know I've been learning more and more about this thanks to Cara thanks to Catherine um you know I kind of had my head in the clouds a little bit because of not really having to be a member of the union I don't you know I don't really work on on Broadway or in orchestras and um so to fix that I went three weeks ago and joined the local 802 because I want to know what's going on and I want to go to these meetings and I want to voice my opinion

Starting point is 00:36:08 of what they did um by representing two predators to get their jobs back in 2020 um like the union was saying oh well you know we have to support all of our members that's actually not true they do not have to they could have chosen to do the moral thing and not back to well-known predators and give them their jobs back but they did and so they said well you know but if we hadn't then they would have sued us well guess what they're getting sued anyway by these two predators so the this the local 802 really they just did a lose-lose situation right and and and they should they should clean house definitely there's something very wrong with that kind of a kind of a decision um well i hope it's a wake-up call for all unions everywhere that there there needs

Starting point is 00:37:05 to be some policies in place and a lot of awareness a lot of education and a lot of i'm gonna say it again maybe last line but transparency yeah yeah well also i think with with if if one hears about something or say a friend or even a rumor of you know oh this guy is handsy or don't be caught in a room alone with this guy you know i mean that's what people said for years about everybody knew you don't let your kid get anywhere near james levine um all the girls knew about prusel like everybody knew this you know if you hear this like listen you know that's what that's the best thing because it's never just one person and so if it is more people then together you know those people can possibly make a difference and and and somehow you know at the very least like

Starting point is 00:38:04 what I mean I can't fix what happened to me I can't go back but maybe I can make it so that this won't happen in the future right to some other 14 year old girl and that to me would be worth it. It's a thankless job. It's kind of like, you know, planting a tree, but you know, you'll never get to be in its shade, I guess. But at the same time, it's, it's the only thing I can do is, is to try to stamp this out because it's, I mean, we all love music, you know, that's why we're, that's why we're in it and stop ruining this for 51% of the population. Yeah. You know, At the human level, what do you recommend we do to offer support to our friends who are trying to survive, trying to overcome going through an event like this? Because sometimes I think there can be some discomfort as to what to say, what to do.

Starting point is 00:39:00 So can you shed some light on this for us so that we feel comfortable going to our colleagues and friends and classmates and be there for them? I guess like listen and believe because that's another thing that you know I I know from speaking to to Kara Kaiser that that people would just say well I don't know I've known him longer than you so I'm gonna believe what he says you know I mean it just it it defies belief what what some of these people said to her um at that time and honestly like i said before people people just don't lie about this kind of thing i mean it's it's too horrible why would you there's absolutely no advantage to having been harassed or abused nothing there's no advantage to coming out about it there's no nobody wins anything you know but

Starting point is 00:39:57 if you don't come out then it festers and it comes out in in some aberrant fashion um for my film I've actually spoken to uh sons uh former fiancés of people who have committed suicide because of sexual abuse in music schools so you know it has to just listen that would be my first thing listen believe and if there's any possibility of some sort of action try to take it and just support support support these women and and you know and some and some men we shouldn't forget that kind of thing i mean i don't know how many young lives james levi ruined and that was men and you know david daniels who now pleaded guilty to rape um abused lots of kids at university of michigan you know and it was thanks to um samuel schultz who came out about that because he heard

Starting point is 00:41:02 that david daniels was getting tenure at university of michigan and he thought well this guy and his husband raped me way back when i am going to come out about this because i don't want this guy to have tenure because he's just going to keep doing the same thing to to young men at university of again so samuel schultz came became public about it and eventually i guess it was about a year ago now um david daniels and his husband pleaded guilty to rape aggravated assault and they are sexual predators they have to be on the registry for the rest of their lives etc etc at one point and this really really disgusted me um david daniels wrote something on facebook and he said oh i sound like a foghorn but guess what i got some work in um in europe

Starting point is 00:41:49 isn't that great and hundreds of people well-known people in the opera world like all congratulated him this is two days after he pleaded guilty of rape for rape two days and everybody was like oh that's such great news david daniels wow i can't wait to hear you again you know well-known people in and educators it really for me that really beggared belief and it was just i mean how how do you think that feels for samuel schultz who just came out about this and then to see all these people back up a rave so don't be those people don't be susan graham you know and don't be stephanie bly because that is just that's a terrible thing to do. I like what you say about support and believe. Support and believe. For

Starting point is 00:42:45 example, it was recently pointed out to me that there are quite a lot of women in the Philadelphia Orchestra and other orchestras who still have my rapist's name on their bios. So what does that say to me? It says either we don't believe you or we don't care. And I think it's more we don't care because i had a substantial amount of proof i had two witnesses but i went to the dean um you know i think that that probably everybody believes me everybody knows that yasha brodsky was a horrible guy and it was totally believable that that he would do such a thing but they don't care he probably taught those women something and they're like okay well you know this is i want to have this on my on my resume because it's important to me

Starting point is 00:43:34 or whatever how do you think that makes me feel i know you don't care ladies thanks you know for the guys it's one thing you know i i can't uh i wouldn't overestimate men to to take him off but but for the women it really is ugly actually it's ugly for everyone yeah must be difficult well you know they know who they are so uh and also even you know they reached out to a bunch of people for that philadelphia inquire article and you know some violinists who studied with him who are younger than me said um well it didn't happen to me it couldn't have happened to her and everybody knows their fathers went to every lesson with them and packed up their violins for them until they were like 30 so you know well congratulations but you know what you're

Starting point is 00:44:25 doing is saying well you know it's my fault or that i'm lying you know right yeah i somehow brought this upon myself because it didn't happen in them right oh you know don't be those girls yeah yeah i'm sure you know what i'm talking about uh if not you can just go and look at the article uh google my name and the curtis institute of music and you can see those uh violinists who very well known quoted as saying oh yeah that couldn't have happened to her no because it didn't happen to me and that's the thing is so um different people will have access to a different type of recourses or or resources or support so if it were to happen to someone right now young person in school what would you recommend they do if they don't know what to do this

Starting point is 00:45:18 happened to them they don't know who to talk to what can they do well one thing that people are definitely doing is reaching out to people like me or katherine needleman for example she has started doing uh digests of she redacts everything but you know by the time she gets sort of 10 stories she puts them on her facebook page and she's now at 11 i mean she's she's had hundreds of people write to her with these stories there's sometimes there's there's suggestions we can make you know people who like me like Catherine like Zemma we're out about what happened to us um you know unfortunately there's libel laws so you know you can't necessarily just kind of say oh this guy did this to me because it's you know tends to be a he said she said kind of situation

Starting point is 00:46:13 and then that person can then sue you for libel and as you know the states is a very litigious society and um and and so that kind of thing is dangerous but there will always be someone that you should be able to reach out to even if it's a friend like just get opinions get try to get help and get somebody who will listen, who will have ideas about who to go to or what to do. And again, it's never isolated. Right. These incidents are never isolated.

Starting point is 00:46:47 And it's never their fault. No, of course not. We saw that with Bill Prucell. You know, there were many, many women that he abused. Zena Bauer was the only one who came out with her own name, but that didn't mean she was the only one. she was the only one that was was brave enough to go against such a such a position of power um and that's not saying that the other women aren't brave they were but you know to stay

Starting point is 00:47:15 anonymous is it's it's much easier for people to come together and and and then and then try to go against one of these people who has given an inordinate amount of power and i guess just the acknowledge that you're not alone it's it's never one person I know I keep saying that but it's um there's always others and so to try to find those to at least you know even if it's people who have graduated alumni you know there's always somebody who will know oh yes I heard about this about that you know it's not like you know you can just go on Facebook and say oh this uh like you know John Doe um or Joe Bloggs or whatever did this anyone else you know you can't do that because then the guy will but there's always a way of finding out you know we all talk to each

Starting point is 00:48:03 other there's some really good reddit threads out there as well on the topic of course yeah yeah and you know people people there's there's people i mean i could probably name about a hundred men right now that should not be doing what they're doing but at the moment people don't want to come out about it they don't want to be public they don't see any kind of uh advantage only a disadvantage they might be too young um they might be scared of retribution for themselves for their students in some cases um for their families you know it's scary it's scary and and and for those who are not for for those who are trying to support people who have been abused or harassed please know that it's very scary for for the women and sometimes men it's

Starting point is 00:48:58 it's extremely scary um because everything is hinging you know the whole it if this man could decide to to change your whole career of course it's scary yeah yeah lara can you tell us more about the documentary when is it coming out when can we see it where can we catch it that's uh everybody would love to know that including myself um i'm going to have a rough cut in about a month it's now out with an editor i do video editing but i've never done a full-length documentary before but uh yeah i ended up going and speaking to uh eight women in different countries in uh in various places and i filmed it mostly myself because i didn't want you know some lighting guy there or some, you know, I wanted these women to be able to talk

Starting point is 00:49:54 to somebody who knows it from the inside out, which is, which is me. And, um, and I, I, I think they were able to, to really speak freely and, and, and use their own names. Mostly there's only one, uh, anonymous person that's because of a family religious situation, which is understandable. she would really like to be um out about it but uh worries that her her the male members of the family will blame her about that so but everybody else is uh is completely front front and center with their own names and their faces and um yeah i think it's gonna pack quite a punch i also do quite a lot of research because uh england is just a morass of misconduct i mean it's just it's terrible what's allowed over there still only now did they only a few months ago did

Starting point is 00:50:52 royal college get rid of its um head of strings mark messenger again everybody's known for years for decades about that guy everybody knew about dion rutko but they didn't care they just didn't care well they cared more about their own interests and exactly and this whole thing like everybody knows okay let's do something about it you know let's let's give enough support to women so that they do feel strong enough to be able to become public yeah yeah and I'm really grateful that you spoke with me today because I feel that that education it's getting there slowly but there's still so much work to be done and the institutions institutions have to raise their standards significantly higher and significantly faster

Starting point is 00:51:52 i agree with you it is too slow it's way too slow yeah i mean it shouldn't be 2024 and you know here we are with um like so katherine has so many statistics like that are incredible you know There's, in almost all of the orchestras, there's maybe out of 16 principals, I think the most female is two or three in the top 20 orchestras. For years, there was one woman conductor in the States, and that was Maren Alsop. She had Baltimore. 20 years later, here we are again. There's one woman conductor in the top 20. That's Natalie Stutzman of Atlanta.

Starting point is 00:52:36 why hasn't that changed you know in 20 years we're still in the same position as we were 20 years ago with in regards to to women in orchestras and um you know there's no actually that's not true Detroit and Cincinnati have recently hired two terrific female concert masters um so that's that's kind of heartening you know there is there little bits of shiny good news here and there but um but yeah still a lot lots of work but you know a lot of it's the same institutions like um just a couple of weeks ago um the one lone tuba player who is a woman in all of the american orchestras carol yanch um she came out and said she was fired from curtis basically for being too young and for

Starting point is 00:53:31 being a woman oh by the same guy who lied to me and tried to shut up his alumni so you know because and who knows why he just didn't like feel like having her there i guess yeah so in closing what's the one thing you think we can all start doing to be part of the solution and no longer enable the issues and the problems i think just awareness that it's out there um you know obviously for various reasons i can't tell you these names of 100 men that i know about but i know about them it's out there and believe me every person that you know every woman in every orchestra has suffered some kind of harassment sexism misogyny um to get to where they are today and you know just if you're if you're a guy try to be an ally if you're a woman

Starting point is 00:54:37 listen to your colleagues you know you should be if you're a woman you should have I don't want to say sympathy that's not it exactly I guess empathy you know just because there's these big fancy men over there don't side with them just because you're scared of your career you know it's it's just not worth it be on the moral side and and not the wrong one Lara thank you so much for coming and speaking with me today I feel that it's with people like you and all of the other advocates out there that we can change things hopefully faster but that we can create a culture that is i'll say it one last time more transparent but where it's safe for everyone to operate where there is support in where there's an openness and an eagerness to

Starting point is 00:55:32 to elevate everyone and higher standards for the way that the that classical music field is women should be allowed to do what they love in this field happily and healthily full stop that's a perfect place to end thank you so much lara thanks honey There you have it. I want to thank Lara again for taking the time to speak with me. And I want to take a few minutes now to summarize some of the points Lara made and to include a few suggestions and things we can do to address sexual harassment in school and in the workplace. If you experience sexual harassment, take steps to protect yourself and seek support. Experts recommend documenting the incident as soon as it happens.

Starting point is 00:56:36 Write down details such as dates, times, locations, what was said or done, and take note of any witnesses. This documentation can be crucial if you decide to report the incident. Next, don't hesitate to seek support. Speaking to someone you trust can help you feel less isolated and more empowered. If your workplace has a reporting mechanism, such as a Title IX officer or a specific HR contact, use it to make a formal complaint if you wish to. If your institution lacks clear procedures, consider contacting external bodies like unions or advocacy organizations. Also, educate yourself on your rights as an employee or student. Review your school or workplace's sexual harassment policy, local labor laws, and union guidelines to understand what protections are in place for you.

Starting point is 00:57:37 Additionally, consider speaking with a legal advisor or counselor who specializes in workplace harassment. They can provide guidance on your options and help you navigate the reporting process. if you witness sexual harassment it's equally important to take action first with permission support the victim as lara said it so beautifully listen believe and support start by approaching the person who experienced the harassment you witnessed in offering your support let them know you witnessed the incident and are willing to help them report it if they choose to do so. If the victim consents, report the incident to the appropriate authorities within your workplace, providing as much detail as possible to support

Starting point is 00:58:30 their case. Keep a record of what you witnessed, including dates, times, and descriptions of the incident. Your documentation can serve as important evidence. Encourage a culture of zero tolerance for retaliation against those who report harassment. If you notice any retaliatory behavior, report it immediately. And for all of us, it's important to educate ourselves and become allies, not just about sexual harassment, but for any discrimination we observe. Becoming an ally involves educating ourselves about the dynamics of sexual harassment and or discrimination and their impact on victims so we can see it clearly and know what to do when we see it. We must participate in workshops, training sessions, and discussions, and encourage our

Starting point is 00:59:28 workplace to provide regular training on these topics. I know many of us roll our eyes when we have to take yet another training, but let's change our paradigm on this. Let's acknowledge the necessity of these trainings and realize our responsibility in changing the culture in our community. Very important here. Use your voice and even more so if you hold a position of influence. Use it to advocate for change. Speak up during meetings. Support initiatives aimed at reducing harassment and ensure that the voices of victims are heard and respected.

Starting point is 01:00:14 Advocate for a workplace culture that prioritizes respect and equality. Challenge inappropriate behavior and language when you see it. And support policies that promote a safe and inclusive environment. Push for your organization to adopt clear policies and procedures for handling sexual harassment. This includes creating reporting mechanisms, providing resources for victims, and ensuring transparency in how complaints are handled. Be vigilant and proactive by keeping an eye out for signs of harassment and addressing them promptly. Encourage open communication in your team so people feel safe sharing their concerns. For more support, consider reaching out to local unions or advocacy groups.

Starting point is 01:01:07 They can provide additional resources and guidance. Seek help from professional counselors who specialize in dealing with workplace harassment and consult with legal experts to understand your rights and the best course of action. Engage with community resources and support groups that offer a safe space for sharing experiences and gaining support. By educating ourselves, supporting victims, and advocating for policy changes, we can all play a role in creating safer and more supportive workplaces. workplaces. It starts with awareness, and it's sustained through collective action and unwavering commitment to equality and respect. Over the past few months, I've had the opportunity to speak with several musicians, art administrators, as well as union representatives, and I'm particularly grateful

Starting point is 01:02:04 to Karen Suarez-Flint, Secretary-Treasurer with the Chicago Federation of Musicians, for taking the time to sit with me for several hours and talking to me about two incredible initiatives that she's overseeing. And I do want to mention them here. The first one is the Change the Culture Committee, which Karen founded shortly after the publication of Sammy Sussman's article back in April.

Starting point is 01:02:31 Fueled by a desire to be an agent of change, Karen assembled a powerful team of AFM women leaders. together and per their statement in the interest of providing meaningful policies, reporting structures, and preventative education in the realm of discrimination, harassment, and sexual assault. The committee requested the adoption of six measures. I have a link to the official document for you in the show notes, and I will walk you through them briefly now. The Change the Culture Committee asks that, first, the AFM should adopt a Code of Conduct similar to those in other industry unions like the SAG-AFTRA and the Actors' Equity. This

Starting point is 01:03:20 code would clearly define unacceptable behaviors and ensure workplace safety. Second, the AFM website needs to be updated with this Code of Conduct and sexual harassment policy, along with clear pathways for reporting complaints. Examples of effective reporting mechanisms include the Chicago Federation of Musicians hashtag not me app, which I will talk about next, and the Writers Guild of America's MyConnect tool. Third, a working group should be formed to create and implement policies that support and protect members, especially vulnerable freelance and gig musicians. Fourth, informational flow charts should be developed to guide musicians in different workplaces settings on how to resolve serious complaints. These charts should be

Starting point is 01:04:14 distributed to local unions for further dissemination. Fifth, the union should encourage locals to standardize probationary processes to protect musicians from arbitrary actions. The Black Orchestral Network's 10 Steps Towards Equity in the Tenure Process is recommended as a resource. Lastly, the AFM must ensure that all members, local leaders, and players' committees have access to educational materials and training. This training should cover recognizing and reporting unlawful sexual harassment, understanding available options and protections, handling reports, and obtaining legal support. This is, I believe, a very important document and proposal, and I'm really happy to report that Karen has informed me it was presented to the International Executive Board Meeting

Starting point is 01:05:12 of the American Federation of Musicians on June 13, 2024, and that the IEB voted unanimously to accept those six recommendations. It will, of course, take time for these recommendations to be turned into action items, but Karen told me she's hopeful that meaningful, visible change will happen over the next few months. This goes to show that conversations sparked by the dissemination of information create real change when people step up and take action. The second thing that Karen and I discussed at length when we met was the tool made accessible to the CFM members here in Chicago

Starting point is 01:05:55 by the Chicago Federation of Musicians Fair Employment Practice Committee, the Hashtag Not Me app. The free app allows CFM members to report directly to the union if they feel that their rights have been violated, that things are not working the way they're supposed to in the workplace or when they observed others being treated unfairly. This can include misconduct by colleagues, contractors, management, patrons, or anyone who has an impact on their workplace. Users can report anonymously if they choose to do so, and situations are handled respectfully, swiftly, and humanely

Starting point is 01:06:37 by union representatives. The app allows union members to receive support and ensure they have an advocate for fair employment practices wherever they work. I have put links to information about the Hashtag Not Me app in the show notes, and I hope you will check them out. Karen walked me through the Hashtag Not Me app, and I was really impressed with how thorough and well thought out it is. And I want to mention it here on the show because I hope that anyone listening who is in a position to ensure that safe ways of reporting abuse are available to all musicians know that great tools are already in place. There are procedures already existing that they can use as models. And at the time I'm recording this podcast, there's been one interesting and fantastic

Starting point is 01:07:32 development, which is that Local 802, that's New York City, will be implementing the Hashtag Not Me app for their members as well. For sure, there's still so much work to be done, but it's great to see so many people be proactive in this fight. So in closing, I hope this episode proves to be a helpful resource for you. I have included many links of supporting organizations and related articles in the show notes for you. If you found this episode helpful, please share it with anyone you think might benefit from the content. And let's keep the conversation going. Feel free to get in touch with me with your thoughts or questions. Together, we can work towards creating a safer and more supportive community. Once again, I want to acknowledge the courage and

Starting point is 01:08:29 strength of the women who stand up, speak up, and continue to advocate for safety and equality for all in the classical music world. And I would like to end with the words of today's guest, Lara St. John. Listen, believe, and support. Together, let's build a community where everyone is able to do what they love in this field happily and healthily.

The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 202 Lara St. John: Creating Change: Ensuring Safety & Equity in Classical Music

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