The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 262 From Battling Doubt To Dancing With It -How Robert Sanders Learned To Trust Himself Under Pressure

Episode Date: May 9, 2026

What if confidence is not the absence of doubt? In this deeply honest conversation, violinist Robert Sanders shares what changed internally as he navigated auditions, pressure, comparison, and eventually won a full time position with the Bruckner Orchestra Linz. This episode is not about becoming fearless. It's about learning how to stop fighting yourself so aggressively underneath the pressure. In this episode: • Why self doubt does not disappear even at a high level • How Robert shifted from battling doubt to "dancing" with it • The surprising mindset shift that changed his audition experience • Why learning to work with yourself changes everything under pressure If you're ready to step on stage with confidence, perform at your best, and finally feel secure in your playing, let's talk! Book a free discovery call and let's create a plan to get you there. Are you ready to take your playing and career to the next level and create a life that feels purposeful and joyful? Let's connect and explore how personalized coaching can support your journey. Click here to schedule your free consultation, and let's start turning your goals into reality.   Book your FREE Music Mastery Experience Discovery call with Renée HERE Book your free consultation with Renée HERE Download the transcript from this episode HERE   Robert Sanders Website: www.robertsandersviolin.com       Mind Over Finger Click www.mindoverfinger.com/coaching to book your free consultation with me. Visit MindOverFinger.com for my online courses as well as free resources on peak performance. Grab my free workshops and PDF downloads by going to www.mindoverfinger.com/resources. Connect: https://www.youtube.com/@MindOverFinger https://www.facebook.com/mindoverfinger/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/mindoverfinger https://www.instagram.com/mindoverfinger/     THANK YOU: Most sincere thank you to composer Jim Stephenson who graciously provided the show's musical theme:  Concerto #1 for Trumpet and Chamber Orchestra – Movement 2: Allegro con Brio, performed by Jeffrey Work, trumpet, and the Lake Forest Symphony, conducted by Jim Stephenson.

You're listening to the Mind Over Finger podcast. This is episode 262. Welcome to the Mind Over Finger podcast, where we dive into the world of mindful music making, peak performance, and crafting a purpose-driven life and career. I'm your host, violinist, certified performance and life coach for musicians, and your guide unlocking your full potential, Dr. René-Paul Gaultier. Hi, everyone. Welcome back to the podcast. Today's episode feels especially meaningful to me because my guest is not only an extraordinary musician, he's also one of the incredible participants inside the Music

Mastery Experience, my signature group coaching program, where I help musicians close the gap between how they perform in the practice room and who they become under pressure. My guest is violinist Robert Sanders and I had the privilege of watching Robert grow over the past year inside of the program and witnessing the shifts he's created both internally and externally has been incredibly moving. Robert recently won a full-time position with the Bruckner Orchestra Linz in Austria and performs regularly as a substitute in the orchestra of the Vienna State Opera and the Vienna Phil. He's performed internationally at major festivals and with some of the world's leading conductors. But what makes this conversation special

is not just what Robert has accomplished, it's the honesty with which he talks about what was happening underneath all of it. The self-doubt, the pressure, the comparison, the feeling of needing to prove himself, the exhausting relationship many musicians develop with achievement and perfectionism, and also what started changing when he stopped trying to fight himself so aggressively through the process. At one point in the conversation, Robert says that his relationship with doubt used to feel like a battle, but now it feels more like a dance. And I love this. I'm going to use it in the future. So get ready to hear me bring it up on the podcast in future episodes. But I love this sentence, this analogy, because I think

many musicians secretly believe they need to eliminate doubt completely before they can perform well or before they can trust themselves or finally feel confident. But that's usually not how this work unfolds. This conversation is thoughtful, vulnerable, psychologically rich, and deeply, deeply human. If you've ever felt disconnected from yourself under pressure, I think you're going to feel very seen in this episode. And before we dive in, I also want you to know that the Music Mastery Experience is currently open for enrollment. If this conversation resonates deeply with you, I'm going to share more details and an invitation for you after the interview. All right, without further ado, let's go to the show.

you and i have known each other for a long time now and we've worked together inside of music master experience for almost a year and it's just been so fantastic to look at all of the amazing things you've accomplished over the last year and actually over the last 10 years that we've known each other i think so it feels extra special to have you as a guest here and let's just begin where I start with everyone, which is to hear about your journey in your own words. All right. Well, I'm from Skokie, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago. I started the violin quite young. Both of my parents are violinists, and my mom was my first teacher as well. I studied with different people throughout the Chicagoland area. I studied with Heysenlee. She was an assistant to

Mrs. Vemos. Then I studied with my father for a couple of years. And then when I was 15, I went to Robert Hanford and studied with him for three years. He's the concertmaster of the Lyric Opera Orchestra of Chicago. Then I went to the Eastman School of Music for my bachelor's with Rene Jolas. And during my senior year, I took grad school auditions and I ended up committing to university of michigan for my master's on may 1st but shortly after in the second week of may i believe the dean sent an email to the violin professors that the vienna philharmonic was accepting video auditions for their academy which was an exception they were making because of the pandemic so that people didn't have to fly to vienna to take the audition person the thing is

that the email had gone to his junk mail folder and it was like 12 days until the application deadline or the audition tape deadline and so my teacher sent it to me she said you might as well give it a try. You have nothing to lose. And so the school was very helpful. They helped me make a professional video audition tape. But I really felt like it was so last minute. I did practice really hard for it, but it was sort of just a, you know, might as well give it a try. I really didn't think anything would come of it. And then a few weeks later, the dean called me and told me that they were offering me a spot in the academy, which then kind of changed the trajectory of my life because I moved to Vienna in September of 2021. I faced a lot of challenges being

in a foreign country for the first time in my life. I had never traveled outside of the United States. And I had to learn German, I had to learn a completely different attitude that people have toward a lot of things in when you're in a different country, when you're in a different culture. And I played with the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra through their academy and had lessons with the members for two years. And after the academy was finished, I decided to remain in Vienna to do my master's and diploma studies. And now I've recently, about two months ago, won an audition for a fixed position in the Bruckner Orchestra Linz for a first violin section position, which is, Linz is about an hour and 30 minutes from Vienna. And so

I'll be moving there in July and then starting finishing my degree as long as I get my thesis done and everything in September, October as I'm starting the job. And then I'll be on my trial from September. Which is amazing. So fantastic. So happy for you. Thank you. Thank you for sharing all of this with us. I think a lot of people can resonate with what it feels like to be transplanted in a new culture, a new language, and what that can do to someone. And like I said, you're one of the clients inside of the Music Mastery Experience. It's so amazing to have you in the group. What you bring to the group dynamic, the insight, how you show up is so amazing. And I'm curious to hear, I mean, I think I know, but I think the

listeners might be interested to know, what was it that brought you to MME? What were you thinking at the time that you started to consider joining the program? Yeah, well, as you said, we've known each other for a long time. I first met you at Birch Creek like 10 years ago, right? Something like that like 11 years ago and it was a really special experience to share a desk with you we played Beethoven 3 and that was kind of I mean I've told you before but that was if not the moment definitely one of the moments that just I had this feeling in that concert playing with you like i really want to do this forever you know it's that that feeling that i think a lot of people who go into music can relate to you have these experiences that it's like

i i don't want to do something other than this this is what i want to do with with my life with my daily life um and sorry to jump in but just for the listeners who don't know what birch creek is it's a summer camp in Wisconsin where the faculty members actually sit in the orchestra with the students. And it's a really, really fantastic experience, at least for me. It's always so much fun to work with the, you know, young upcoming musicians and sit in the orchestra. Right. So we knew each other. And I, as mind over finger, took shape and developed, and you then developed and expanded social media presence. I was always following and I was always seeing what you were doing. i have to say though there was this part of me that felt like i needed to be able to do it on my own somehow i i think some of it came from different influences that i had

um which and it's not necessarily the person's fault but in with different teachers and influences people, said things. And the message that I received, the lesson that I took from it was that thinking too much about the mental process of this, thinking about what might, you know, you might need to work on with regard to your mindset, that's dangerous territory. Don't think too much about that. If you need to think too much about that, you're not like a natural authentic artist that there were some there were some beliefs in there of this and and there were at the time that i was in the academy it's an incredible program it has a wildly high success rate of job placement rate of the of the participants and within my

first year, I think about half or slightly more than half of the students that I started with had won positions in orchestras. And it sort of, I was in this environment in which, and of course, I was one of the youngest academics, but of course, I didn't think about that. I thought about how they were succeeding right away, and I wasn't. And I sort of developed this idea that I needed to just go and do it and it needed to happen quickly and it needed to and there were a lot of these pressures that I was putting on myself and over time and throughout because I've been taking auditions since I moved here so this is my fifth year of auditioning and that's something I also want to share that um this was my 26th audition for a for a you know

fixed position in an orchestra and I saw a lot of people who I saw more than a couple people who won their first auditions and now I know how incredibly rare that was but at the time that was sort of the standard that I was comparing myself to. And I think that over time and with different experiences that I had throughout my academy time, and then once I left, finished the academy and I was studying, I was continuing to see not only your content, but I was starting to get more interested in podcasts and content that was centered around self-help even though I'm not the biggest fan of this term but I think you know sort of what I am referring to this is sort of web of content and resources that are geared toward learning how to create a better life for yourself

um and i think that when i did finally decide to reach out to you and and consider working with you i was yeah it was right before my last year of studies and i could i had the option to prolong extend but it was going to be my third year of studying If I finished on time, that would be the last year. And I had certain desires of where I wanted to be at the end of that year. And I was a bit afraid if I would be able to make that happen. And I had tons of support. I have an amazing girlfriend. I have amazing family, parents, my sister, my aunt. I have an incredible teacher at the university here who also is a great audition coach, keeping the positive energy going always. I had all this support around me, and yet I felt a bit like I was swimming in doubts, in doubts about myself. And so I really wanted to do something that could center around targeting that specifically, because I had the support, the family support, the musical, violin support from my teacher. I was going to a therapist here, but I wanted to look at something that would really target

the self-beliefs that seemed to be a bit of a topic. And that's sort of, I think, what led me to reach out and to really start to seriously consider coaching. Thanks for sharing all of this. You've said so many important things that again, are going to reach so many people like this sort of stigma around the fact that you shouldn't need support, which is so strange because you look at all of the entire, the entire world of sport is built around athletes who have full-time coaches and yeah um even you i forget which documentary that is where there's a formula one driver who's going everywhere with his coach so his his number one employees full-time employees is coach traveling with him yet in the

yeah yeah yet in the music world we should be doing all of this by ourselves no support no help. We should have the strength. And I think that this stigma is slowly going away. Thankfully, this is so great. And thanks for talking about this, the comparison aspect of things and how easy it is to start comparing our experience with other people's experience, but have a tendency to look only at sort of disregarding the accomplishments that we've done and over-emphasizing the accomplishments of others. And then that's kind of double the pain accumulating here. And what you said about swimming in doubt and self-belief, I think so many people can relate because you can play beautifully. You can know all of the things. You can have all of the trainings.

but as you show up on audition day you could still experience some self-doubt you could still you know it could still swim in doubt and lack some self-belief but having the tools to find a good place with that is something that is really important to develop yeah and i think that the reason i said swimming in doubt is because i i was going to say i was experiencing doubt and i think though if i say that as if it's past tense that's quite disingenuous i mean i i'm preparing rosen cavalier right now for next week and i'm having thoughts of pretty intense self-doubt about every 10 minutes sometimes every five minutes while I'm practicing and it's it's not that the self-doubt has disappeared but it's the relationship that

I have with it I think that has really changed and at that time a few years I mean one year ago um the doubt it was like a battle i was battling with it and it seemed like sometimes i would suppress it and then other times it would win and now it's more like we're like dancing and we're sort of like yeah it's like i it's there And it's sort of, yeah, it's a bit more of this kind of a bit easier relationship, I would say. Yeah, because doubt is such a human emotion and we tend to forget that as human, it's normal. But when we can learn to dance with it, then things start to change. Can you tell us a little bit more about this? And what was your experience inside MME? What do you feel like? What was the one thing or, you know, maybe not the one thing? What are some of the things that you feel really made a difference?

Because for me, I could really see, especially after a few months, a transformation happen, which was really fantastic. And I'd love to hear a little bit more from you, how it felt like for you and what you felt was helpful that you got from the program. Yeah, I think my relationship with my ego and identity shifted as a result of the work. I think that in the past when I had imagined the future or the result that I wanted, I attached a certain pressure to it that came from a belief that if I didn't achieve this, then I have failed and disappointed myself and the people that are supporting me. And I think that the work that I've done in the past year has put me on a path toward looking at things more objectively of what's really there in the moment, what's really in front of me, rather than the beliefs that were causing me to feel that if I didn't accomplish, if I didn't win a position, then I was hurting myself and the people around me.

mm-hmm and i think that yeah i think that some of the i think it's the comp for me it was the combination of a lot of strategic work toward envisioning what you want for yourself very practical practice methods and systems conditioning work such as the what is the flow state channeling where you take a bunch of different mindsets and you play through for example a certain passage 10 times and each time you think about you focus on a different aspect of your sound or the feeling in your body or the feeling that you're trying to impress people or the feeling that you don't care what they think at all

and each time setting these really clear intentions with repeating these performances of certain sections over and over with these different intentions all of those intensive for To me, it's intensive work, it's intensive methodology with self-compassion work and learning how to tap into who you are and what you need and how you can support yourself the way you support people that you care about. I think it was the combination of these elements because I often thought of self-compassion, being nice to myself as something I do sometimes, and then being really driven and hard on myself as being them being separate things. And in the past year, I started to combine them. And I think for me, that's when I started to feel differently

on a regular basis. And I want to say also that for me, the change isn't in the external results. I don't think that I'm not a proponent of MME because I want a job. I'm a proponent of MME because of how I feel I feel better on a weekly basis than I did a year ago I feel more balanced I feel more grounded and I feel more capable I feel that if things don't go the way I want them to, I have this big toolbox that I can draw from. And so I feel more at home with myself. And for me, that's the win more than the external future, which has now come to fruition. thank you thank you so much for sharing this and it makes me so happy to hear it because that's exactly what I envisioned when I created the program because I was seeing a need

to like I was seeing a lot of suffering in people basically and then you're trying to prepare for performance but as a human and I'm not necessarily I'm not saying you Robert I'm saying one one people that I was working with, students that I had at the time, and also, of course, myself at times, where you prepare for a performance, but as a human being, you're suffering. And I think that for people to think that the suffering human is not the same person as the practicing human is a mistake. And that as we understand how we're thinking, what we're feeling, and the impact it has on everything that we do, then the work is much better, this holistic approach. And then I also see this as opening the door for really high standards, but done in a way that is healthy,

that also then creates, hopefully, a community of musicians that is so much more, how could I say it just an environment that is much more supportive and that allows for human beings that are healthy happy making beautiful

music together I don't know if that sounds a little woo woo but that was really kind of a picture that I had in mind because I think that the tapping into radical empathy I think it's It's working both ways, and I notice it constantly in my own life that when I am able to understand that people are doing what they believe, they're acting in accordance.

We're all acting in accordance with our thoughts and beliefs. And when I understand, when I, sometimes it really takes discipline to understand, to try to understand others. But when I really look to understand others, I find that I'm more easily able to understand myself. 100%. And so I think the concept of a group coaching program is very valuable in that way because I had many experiences where someone else was getting coaching and I thought something judgmental about them. And I would say, whoa, what's that about? And then inquire, do self-inquiry with it and really expose what's really going on there. Why does that make me feel judgmental? And then go toward, figure out how to tap into empathy. And then I feel connected to them. And I feel more connected to myself. very beautifully put yeah and that's the beauty of self-coaching too because not self-coaching well self-coaching yes beauty of self-coaching beauty of group coaching i was

going to say because as people share their experience inside the coaching room as you saw people come with all sorts of situations that they want to explore and a lot of times those our situations, events, ways that they feel that they don't feel comfortable sharing at large by fear of being judged. And then when you come in the room and everybody has what I call this shared human experience, it's so valuable for us to hear other people negotiating these situations in their life. And then we can map it onto our own experience. And, you know, one thing that I have to say too, is that you as a participant is a good example of what happens when you really involve yourself in the content, when you're present, when you actually, what I saw you do

is, you know, fully give a shot to everything. And some of the things are not easy to sit down and do the self-inquiry. It's not an easy thing to record yourself as much as I recommend it. It's not always easy, but you really dove in, you asked the difficult questions, you looked for the answers, you considered all of the answers. Because at times we ask questions and we negate the answers that are coming up, we just push them aside. But I think that you really listened to what was coming up for you, you considered it, and you did the hard work to start untangling. this doubt, or at least, as you said so beautifully, like learn how to dance with it. And I really want to commend you for this because the way that you show up in the program really created what you're experiencing right now. It's how you use the tool.

Well, thank you. I appreciate that. I feel that the program was, in a way, it was a playground where I could do a lot of this analysis that sometimes people had told me you think too much or you think too complicated people who i love and respect and still and really helped me but there was sometimes a message that thinking or analyzing can be dangerous and i think that with the program I never felt that it's like, oh, you're thinking something crazy. Awesome. Let's go there. Always. We always it's always like, let's go there. Let's dive in. Let's peel back the layers. And yeah, it also. So always like, tell me more. Yeah, it's always tell me more rather than stop.

Don't think so much. Don't overthink it. We even joked about that in our discovery call, how helpful it is when someone tells you not to overthink. Like stop being sad. That is always the helpful thing to say. Right. Robert, what would you say, you know, to someone that is considering joining the program? I think that I would commend them for considering it, first of all, because I feel that that's a sign that they care about their work and they care about themselves.

And so I think the fact that you're in a position where you're thinking about coaching, you're thinking about joining the program, I think that's already a win, first of all. I think that it's, yeah, I think that one should, I think something in the program that, with the work with you, we talked early on about developing or tapping in, not even developing, but realizing that I have self-agency. I can decide I can listen to my inner wisdom and find out what's best for me so in light of that I would say to them bravo to you for um for wanting more for yourself for wanting um, to better yourself. That's awesome. And know that you have, um, you have right now the ability to tap into self agency and listen to your inner wisdom on, on what's best for you and what you should do. I can speak only for myself that it was a fabulous, it was a fantastic investment and it was exactly what I needed in many ways. But I think that everyone should come

to the conclusion that they will come to based on their own inner wisdom. yeah that's really really well said i'm curious what feels possible for you now that didn't before perhaps because a lot and the reason i'm asking this i'll you know i'm going to combine this with uh some one of the questions that i love in the rapid fire which is um what thought or belief maybe changed your life or supports you because one of the big aspects, one of the biggest aspects inside of the program is how our thinking really is in charge of the show and changing what we're thinking. And it's a whole process, right? It's never about pushing away what we're feeling right now, but rather observing it. So it's not changing what you're thinking from ignoring your thoughts

or ignoring your feelings at all. But that's a big thing. It's like, what am I thinking? How helpful it is. And along the way, I find that many participants, and I think you included, some of the things that you're thinking changes along the way.

Or change along the way. And the same way that I've changed my life one thinking at a time. So I'm curious, maybe what is one of those things that has changed for you? that, and what do you feel is possible for you right now that maybe didn't feel before? Yeah. Um, I, okay. So the first part of the question, I think pretty early on, I started

recording, I started making lists of, of things that I wanted to see in my life and recording them and listening to them every morning. And I remember still, you know, there was a lot of information and a lot of it goes your camera, but I still remember, um, the first, I believe it was the first bullet point I had on one of these recordings was, I can achieve anything that I truly desire. And that was, I think, quite pivotal for me because it combined confidence and belief in myself with learning how to tap into asking myself, what do I truly desire? Because a lot of the things that I put a lot of pressure on myself to achieve were things that I believed I was supposed to achieve or I was supposed to want. So I think it was combining the belief

that i can do it with the trust that i can listen to myself and find what i really want to do so that is i would say something that a belief that over time and it's not like i i trained that these beliefs they're they don't just they didn't just come they also another thing i wanted to be sure to mention another aspect was the um ideal scene exercise which i um would for every audition i made a voice memo i would write it down and then make a voice memo of basically the whole process from, um, when I would, for some, if I traveled, had to travel, it would be the night before, or when I arrive in the city and when I get to the hall and what it's like in the warmup room. And I would specify how I'm feeling, what I'm doing, what I'm thinking. I would include,

of course, I'm feeling nervous. I'm unsure, but I tap into X, Y, Z. I sort of also accounted for obstacles in this, but I would create this ideal scene. And I always included how I was going to feel after I played. I feel proud of what I've accomplished. And I would listen to this twice a day for two weeks, starting two weeks before every audition. And I remember after the first audition that i did this for which was like in october november i think and i was and i said it in a coaching like i can choose pride i never knew that that's something i could choose i could choose i could decide it and then train it and then experience it and for me this was brand new like totally i did not know i had that option i really didn't i thought that pride was something

that came with what you accomplished externally i really did i really believed that and so um i don't know if i went really far from the question but but anyway so that this um i wanted to mention this with the ideal scene because of how i think my point was that these beliefs didn't just happen as a result it's not like i did the work and then i started to believe this like i said i'm going to believe this and then practiced it the same way you practice fingered octaves right and then one day it was there right i want to commend you for this because so many times i introduced this technique of the ideal scene inside of my me and a lot of people don't sort of don't go for it and i always say right

like let's try it it kind of works so you really did you applied yourself but but you you know you really made it yourself as well because i think that that's what i want for everyone to do is there's the information that I present and then it's how you internalize it and make sure that it fits who you are. And I feel like you've really done that. I think there's always a way to make it fit who you are if and that's why I'm so glad we did this. We had these conversations about self-agency so early on because whenever I was feeling friction toward toward you or the program like something I was like this doesn't I could tap into that like say this is for me so I do it how I want to do it and there were certain things you would say make sure to do this and I say no

I'm not gonna do that way I'm gonna do it I'm gonna do it slightly different way and that was the win actually for me because I had spent so much time you know oh I have to do it I got really good at pleasing the teacher, you know, really good. And I, my therapist even commented on it that she's like, I feel like you're a really good student because you're always trying to take what I say and find something inspirational in it. And, you know, and this, this was a theme that I was kind of often looking to, to please. And I always rejected the label of people pleaser. Also we talked, I rejected the label of a perfectionist because I didn't think I played perfectly. It's just so funny. But, you know, these these things I and I realize now that these

labels like, are you this or are you not this? It's that's way too black and white. We all as human beings have the tendency to experience people pleasing or to experience perfectionism. And so, yeah, I think that with the belief, and then you asked what I wanted to say about the second part of the question, the what do I think is possible? I think what I believe is possible, you know, the, what I'm looking to believe, I'm, I'm, I know what I want and I'm writing it down and training and I'm working to train the, the beliefs that I want and the life that I want. But I think what I believe right now is possible is that I can enjoy the process. I can enjoy the experience. I can relax in really stressful times and situations.

I can breathe out I can learn how to appreciate my loved ones I mean my girlfriend has also said she has seen a big shift in my ability to for example really be present and enjoy a night that we spent together two nights before a big audition or a big performance which in the past like the closer that the performance would get the more I kind of receded emotionally and she's noticed a big change in that so I'll take her word for it that I'm able to be with the people I love um that doesn't need to be dependent on whether or not there might be a lot of adrenaline with another aspect of my life. And I'm glad you mentioned this because in this specific conversation, we talked a lot about auditions. And I talk a lot about auditions

at large because many of my clients are taking auditions, but not all my clients are taking auditions and one of my mission is also that once you get the audition you want to get tenure but you don't just want to you know what how do you say in english um put the x in the box what's the expression for this the checklist you don't want to just yeah do the check on the checklist of when the job you know gets on your by the house get the car and dog or puppies and you know it's it's no it's how do I thrive as a human being as I'm doing all of these things and that's what you say the the let how can I enjoy the process yes that's the last question of the the what is it called oh the deep practice model yeah the yeah like the

The problem-solving mindset. Problem-solving mindset. Thank you. Thank you for knowing my content more than me. Yes, absolutely. That's the fifth question. And that's the one question that almost didn't make it in. And I realized, wait, this is the most important question.

It's how can we enjoy the process? Because that's the thing is you can get the job. We can get tenure. You can get the car. You and I both know musicians or people in any professions that have achieved all of these things and are still looking for self-confidence and are still looking for a sense of self or a sense of being at home with themselves, as you mentioned earlier. So as you said so well, you can choose to be happy as you're doing all of these things. You can choose how you show up doing all of these things. um and and so thank you for bringing it up because that is one of my biggest mission which would be

to sure i want to help people win auditions because it's great to take care of that aspect of the money-making portion of our lives but more than that is how can we have a community of musicians who are thriving as humans because then things are very different when you have a bunch of thriving humans together making music that's amazing yeah yeah do you have time for a couple of uh rapid fire questions before i let you go absolutely let's see i'm gonna look at my list here um tell me about your favorite tool in the practice room i'll be curious to know that after being through the program is now just honestly just a metronome but but not like the i really i mean i do use my apps for um what is it for subdivisions at times but i really prefer for

basic build up you know click by click i prefer using an analog metronome like the seiko black metronome i think i like to the the feeling of clicking of turning it there's a there's a sort of nothing like it's psychological yeah there's like a progress it does just tapping the screen it it's does it's not the same for me it really makes me i can feel the progress in in my you know i can feel it physically then and and it definitely has an impact so yeah just the the metronome and also a drone as well. I use a drone a lot. And I'm nodding because my stand is too far. I can't reach it with my hand, but I've got my Black Seiko metronome right there. Yeah, I have it too, but it's also too far. I've got my timer right here, my metronome and my

tuner is a droner right here on the phone. So this is a good toolkit. I like it. I like it a lot. You talked about how can we enjoy the process? What makes practicing most enjoyable for you? Well, I think that it's something that one of the reasons I love my teacher so much is that she's always looking for the solution, the thing that makes a big difference. And she always says that um when you notice when you find the when you find she calls it a key when you find the key to to what you're struggling with you find the solution and you you hear the sound and the difference in the sound to save it really as vividly as you can in your mind to really save it So I think that and saving it isn't the same as you save the memory.

But of course, you don't then try to hold on to it and reproduce it every time. It's not it's everything is is fluent, fluid, right? But experiencing those solutions and sort of just like holding on to it, like the last two minutes before you have to get out of bed and just like enjoying it is savoring those just savoring that solution for a few seconds and then continuing and then finding the next solution and then savoring that and he's even as i'm saying this i'm like oh i should i should do this more tonight for the rest of my practice to really but it's it's such a joy to find solutions and then relish in them for for a few seconds before you move on i love that thanks for the reminder okay

i'll do the same i'll do the same yeah yes um and then finally do you have a an actionable tip for the listener something that they could implement i would tell them I would say that and I mean it's also for me like um look at what you're doing right because I mean I've always all day today I've been thinking I was like I always cook once I'm really starving then I start to cook so I'm putting all this stuff in the oven and then and it's in the oven, and I'm eating an apple, but I'm thinking, oh, I'm going to have this podcast, what am I going to say, oh, but I have to practice Rosenkavalier, and then I thought just

this apple, why don't I just enjoy this apple for a few seconds, it's this crisp, sweet, delicious apple, and like think about all the stuff that is going well, all the things that I've done well this week, all the things, you know, and being able to like appreciate what I'm doing right in order to balance this tendency that we have, which comes from a good place that we always need to aim higher. We always need to have more. And for any professional musician listening, that approach has gotten you a lot of what you have today of always going for more. But I know I'm young, but from what I see, I think if that's the only strategy you have, there is a dead end with that. There is a point in which it's not going to be sustainable

when the only tool you have is always got to aim more, aim higher, aim higher without balancing it with looking at what you're doing right, what you've done right and what you're doing right right now. Because I guarantee you, if you even have access to a phone and headphones and you're listening to this, that means you have a certain amount of security in your life that you're doing a lot of things right. And I think that you owe it to yourself to breathe out. I also need to relax my shoulders.

They're a little tense. First time doing a podcast interview, you breathe out and you appreciate what's going right. And also maybe even more actionable then to, at the end of the day, write it down, write three things you did right today. Maybe that's a good one. Okay, there's the tip. Boom. Drop the mic.

Tonight, write three things down that you did right. That's awesome. And you knew ahead of time that I was going to like that, right? Yeah, I aim to please. Exactly, exactly. And because I think that people feel like they must look at what's not working in order to move forward. And yes, I think high standards, big dreams, big goals. But what you said about finding this balance is so important because you've heard me say this many times. So allow me just a second, Robert, to repeat something you've heard before, but maybe someone listening to this podcast haven't, is that we have this cognitive bias to go for what's not working and what's negative or what's left to do because we are survival species and we are always scanning for danger. So we already have that wiring that puts the dial in the, you know, scanning for danger, scanning for potential problems area.

And what that does, it is very taxing for the nervous system. And when there's too much of that happening, then it really erodes at your motivation. It erodes at your momentum, at your resolve, and then everything becomes more difficult. and this is when we experience burnout this is when we give up on projects or this is when we show up as less than we're capable of because we're overwhelmed and oppressed by our this pressure that we're putting on ourselves and always looking at what's not working and then when we rebalance the dial as you always as you said so well rather this is when we are in a much more objective place. And it has a very powerful calming effect on the nervous system. And this is

what helps fueling the momentum, fueling the resolve. So what you just said about finding this balance. Yeah, sure. Big dreams, big goals, very high standard. But what is also important is to look at where we are, not just where we're going and what we've done, what we've accomplished. And that helps fuel, again, as I said, this motivation and also the self-created pride, the self-created confidence that is going to be very, very important fuel for all of this moving forward. Yeah. Yeah.

Thanks for this tip. I love it. Anytime. Robert, thank you so much for being here. It felt very extra special to have one of my clients. but also a longtime friend on the podcast. And I just, I'm so, so, so appreciative that you would come here and share your experience

because, you know, people who seek coaching sometimes have a tendency to hide the fact that they work with a coach. So I appreciate that it's, you know, it can be a little bit, one could feel a little bit exposed by sharing that, you know, they have coaching. And I feel like we're still open with this today.

I really appreciate it. Well, everybody's different, but I think pretty quickly, once I started the program, pretty short, a month or two in, I did feel pride about being part of this because I was seeing so much, not only for myself, I was seeing a different way that I was feeling, but I was getting to witness so much transformation in other people. And so, yeah, I was I was quite open about it with from not saying that that's what others should do or something. But for me, I was I was quite proud to be a part of of this program. And yeah, thanks. It was a lot of fun.

Oh, thank you. All right. Thanks for this amazing conversation. and there you have it i hope this conversation with robert sanders gave you something meaningful to reflect on because what moves me most about his story is not only that he won the audition it's the way he learned to relate to himself differently throughout the process and if you listened closely, you probably noticed something important. The transformation was not about becoming fearless or perfectly confident or suddenly never struggling again. It was about learning how to stop fighting himself so relentlessly underneath the pressure. And that's the work. If this conversation resonated with you, there's a good chance you know this experience

intimately to. You know how to work hard. You know how to push yourself. You know how to achieve. But maybe nobody ever really taught you how to work with yourself, how to stay connected under pressure, how to navigate doubt without collapsing into it, how to perform without abandoning yourself internally. And this is exactly the kind of work we do inside the Music Mastery Experience, my high-level performance training program for musicians. And getting to witness musicians like Robert move through this process in real time is one of the greatest privileges of my work. The doors to MME are currently open, and if this episode resonated deeply with you, I would love to invite you into this space and into this work. You can learn more

and join at mindoverfinger.com. And wherever you are in your journey right now, I hope this conversation reminded you that your struggles make sense and that you don't need to navigate them alone. All right, this is what I have for you today. All my love going your way and à bientôt. Thank you.