The Mind Over Finger Podcast - 266 The Long Game of Musical Growth - Ben Ullery on Curiosity, Learning, and Performing at the Highest Level

Episode Date: July 17, 2026

Ben Ullery, Principal Viola of the Los Angeles Philharmonic, joins me for a thoughtful conversation about curiosity, lifelong learning, and what it takes to keep growing as a musician while performing at the highest level. In this episode, we explore: Why curiosity is one of a musician's greatest assets What happens after you land your dream job The role of visualization in performance Why perfection isn't the goal How to keep growing throughout your musical career   If you're ready to step on stage with confidence, perform at your best, and finally feel secure in your playing, let's connect and explore how personalized coaching can support your journey. Click here to schedule your free consultation, and let's start turning your goals into reality.   Book your FREE Music Mastery Experience Discovery call with Renée HERE Book your free consultation with Renée HERE Download the transcript from this episode HERE   GUEST Website: https://benullery.com/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/bullerbot/ YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@benullery     Mind Over Finger Click www.mindoverfinger.com/coaching to book your free consultation with me. Visit MindOverFinger.com for my online courses as well as free resources on peak performance. Grab my free workshops and PDF downloads by going to www.mindoverfinger.com/resources. Connect: https://www.youtube.com/@MindOverFinger https://www.facebook.com/mindoverfinger/ https://www.facebook.com/groups/mindoverfinger https://www.instagram.com/mindoverfinger/     THANK YOU: Most sincere thank you to composer Jim Stephenson who graciously provided the show's musical theme:  Concerto #1 for Trumpet and Chamber Orchestra – Movement 2: Allegro con Brio, performed by Jeffrey Work, trumpet, and the Lake Forest Symphony, conducted by Jim Stephenson.

You're listening to the Mind Over Finger podcast. This is episode 266. Welcome to the Mind Over Finger podcast, where we dive into the world of mindful music making, peak performance, and crafting a purpose-driven life and career. I'm your host, violinist, certified performance and life coach for musicians, and your guide to unlocking your full potential, Dr. Ranipo Gautier. Hi everyone, welcome back to the Mind Over Finger podcast. I hope you're doing beautifully wherever you're tuning in from today. I'm really looking forward to sharing this conversation with you because my guest today is someone whose musical journey is both inspiring and incredibly grounded. Today I'm joined by Ben Ullery, the newly appointed Principal Viola of

the Los Angeles Philharmonic. Before stepping into that role, Ben followed a remarkable path within the orchestra itself, moving from the section to assistant principal, then associate principal, and now principal. It's an unusual journey, and it's a journey that's given him a unique perspective on what it really takes to grow over the course of a career. What I love most about this conversation is that we didn't just talk about auditions. We talked about what happens after the audition. How do you keep improving when you've already reached the level so many people aspire to? How do you stay curious?

How do you keep finding meaning in the work, the work itself, week after week? and what does it actually look like to continue growing when mastery is never really a destination. Ben also shares some wonderful insights about preparing for auditions, approaching performances as opportunities to communicate rather than simply execute, the importance of listening deeply, and why curiosity may be one of the most powerful qualities you can cultivate as a musician. This is one of those conversations that reminded me that great musicians aren't only committed to excellence, they're committed to staying open, to staying engaged, and to continually learn. I think you're going to get a lot out of this one. And for my fellow note-takers and deep thinkers,

the summary and transcript are waiting in the show notes. Let's go to the show. Ben Ullery, so great to have you on the show. Thank you. Good to be here. Ben, you've been appointed recently as the principal viola for the Los Angeles Philharmonic, and you're also a very active performer and pedagogue so I think we're going to have a lot of really juicy topics to cover today. The first question I like to ask all of my guests is for them to tell me about their journey in their own words so let's begin there shall we? Please tell us about you, that artistic journey of yours and how it has unfolded. Sure, well I was born in St. Paul, Minnesota. Both of my parents played in the St. Paul Chamber Orchestra.

My mom is actually still principal flute in that orchestra. My dad played principal bassoon for, I think, 30-something years before he retired a few years ago. um so i grew up uh in a house with a lot of music going on and uh my parents were both wind players obviously but um i wanted to play violin when i was a kid i don't i don't remember it but uh uh at that time uh it this was in the 80s um pink is zuckerman was their music director at that point. Uh, and I was always backstage, uh, did rehearsals and concerts. And so I would hear him play, uh, and he was always really nice to me and he would play with me backstage and stuff. So, uh, when I was about, I think three or four, I told my parents that I wanted a violin

like Pinky had so that's that's that's how I started playing violin and um yeah so I I did I did most of my training on violin actually before I switched to viola uh I went to to Oberlin Conservatory um got a uh the bachelor's there in violin performance um I spent a little bit of time at New England Conservatory in Boston, also on violin. And then I had played viola kind of on the side with my friends, kind of whenever they needed somebody to play viola in a string quartet or something. And I always really enjoyed it. But when I was in my early 20s, I guess, I decided I wanted to practice viola a little bit more. I guess I was just bored or something. I don't know. But I started playing more viola and started actually practicing

instead of just kind of, you know, messing around playing chair music. And I really liked it. And I started getting some work doing it. Um, I was subbing at that point with, uh, Minnesota Orchestra and I decided to actually study viola with somebody, uh, cause I didn't have any, I'd never had any actual viola lessons, I guess. Uh, that's pretty amazing. Yeah. So, um, I decided to apply to grad schools on viola and I ended up going to Colburn uh here in Los Angeles and I studied with uh Paul Coletti there um for just a year because during that year I won my first job which was the section viola in the Minnesota Orchestra uh where I had already been subbing there like i said and so i moved there and i played there for three years which was great

you know it's my it was my hometown orchestra uh not the orchestra that my parents played in but um i i had heard minnesota orchestra growing up and they're they're they they were and they still are a great great group um and i learned a lot there uh from my colleagues and then i won an audition here in la um for section viola here and then uh i had i guess kind of an unusual trajectory in my time here so i played for about a year in the section and then uh the assistant principal job came open and I won that audition. And then, so I, I was third chair here for about, uh, 11 or 12 years, something like that. And then, um, and then the woman who was the associate principal retired and I won that audition. And so I was second chair for, uh, about

two two two three years um and then a few months ago i was lucky enough to win the principal job when my former colleague tong lee went to chicago so i i'm not sure anybody's ever done that before from from section assistant associate and then principal so i i mean i'd be interested to find out if anybody knows of another another person who's done that in the same orchestra but uh it's a little unusual nice and clean one step at a time right it's like climbing the corporate ladder right right yeah doesn't usually happen in the orchestra world but yeah i'm very curious i mean obviously you're a wonderful player and a lot of my clients a lot of my listeners are curious about this audition process this successful audition process what do you think makes you

so successful? Because also it's important to say that there's a lot of really fantastic players who are not successful in auditions. So what do you think is that combination that you have between being a really great player and someone who is successful in auditions? Yeah, sure. I mean, I don't know if there's any one single answer to that, but um uh we all wish there was yeah um you know i i teach um i teach a orchestral repertoire class at colburn uh i've been doing that for i think 13 years or so now um so i i talk about this a lot with with the students there who take my class and um you know you have to obviously prepare really thoroughly and really understand the the style of the music that you're playing and

you know the role of the viola and you have to be very technically accurate i mean all of that is true um but you know the the thing that i try to emphasize with with the students in my class is that that's not necessarily enough to win a job in a great orchestra and what what i want to hear when i'm on an audition committee is that um the person is still really actually playing music when when you take an audition which may seem obvious but you know i think it's i think it's easy to get locked into the mindset that everything has to be perfect and you can't make any mistakes and um you know every articulation has to be exactly right and you have to do all the dynamics and you know we try to do that as much as possible but it's not perfection i don't think is really

the really the goal um the the goal is to communicate and be expressive in your playing um and you know to show understanding of the music of course but um to really show that you're a performer and that you're having fun playing the music you know i i think in the auditions that i've been successful with um i try to as much as possible be in the mindset that it's it's a performance that i'm going to look forward to and that i and that it's it's fun for me to get to play this great music, even if it's just these little sort of snippets out of context, which is sort of weird. But if you kind of try to look at it as a little mini recital where you're playing these

little, you know, 30 second pieces for your audience that you're excited to share with them because it's great music, I think that's a better way to approach it than this, you know sort of removed task where you have to execute everything perfect perfectly uh i i don't think that that's really gonna yield a great result if if you're not also enjoying it you know so that i guess that would be my advice i love this so much because one of the big things big topic that i cover with my clients is this idea of it's of course what you do but as importantly is who you are as you do it. And I feel like this thought of

it's a performance that I look forward to is such a great guiding light in your work. And I think that if that's what you're thinking and believing, it for sure has an impact how you show up in the practice room, how you're problem solving, the approach to playing every note,

guiding your decisions. So I think that is a really powerful, I would say, statement to have in mind as you're practicing yeah yeah i think absolutely i mean you know practicing i'm not gonna lie practicing isn't always the most fun thing to do in the world no sometimes you have to just you know be consistent and and throw hours at it even when you don't feel great uh or you don't feel like you're getting anywhere but um i mean as much as possible i try to enjoy the process and

try to, uh, look forward to playing. I mean, if it's, if, if you see a performance as something that you're dreading and that you don't, you, you know, you're not going to play how you want to play. And, um, you know, it's, it's easy to get locked into that mindset. And then I, I think that probably that's going to affect the quality of, of your, of your performance. But I think if you look at it in a more positive light as, you know, I know it's not always easy to do, but if it's something that you can look forward to and find aspects of it to enjoy along the way, then I think the end result is going to be a lot better. And it'll be more enjoyable for you too, even if you don't win the audition. I love that. For a few years, I did something called

the joyful practice challenge where I had some guests like James Ennis come in and you know Tessa Lark come in and share their how they made practice not just joyful but interesting too because that's one of my main things and I have all these tricks to make it you know figure out a way to make it at least interesting and meaningful because right sometimes I have to learn music or a very obscure difficult symphony that I might never play again so I'm not always thrilled, but it's like, how do I make it meaningful? So I play all sorts of games with myself. I, you know, I give myself challenges to do within a certain time. I'm looking at my timer sitting over there on the piano and, or I'll, you know, see how quickly I can memorize a measure

or, you know, decide that I'm going to use this to work on whatever aspect of my technique I want to be thinking about. Like I use all of these, these sort of hacks to keep myself engaged at a personal level in the work that I'm doing, what are some of your strategies? Um, yeah, I mean, that's, that's great. I really, I really liked that a lot. Um, you know, a lot of, a lot of my practice, uh, well, I should say like a certain amount of my practice is just, you know, devoted to learning notes and I, you know, for, for my job and for the other stuff that I have to do or that I get to do, I should say. Um, I, you know, there's a good, good amount of just pages of music that I have to get through that I have to familiarize

myself with. Um, and I mean, most of the time, I, I guess I do just find that enjoyable at getting to learn new, great music. I mean, I, I feel very lucky that I get to play great music all the time for my job uh you know even if it's not something that i would have picked personally to get to play but i mean you know sometimes it's ends up being unexpectedly fun you know so i mean i i don't know if i have specific um techniques like that for for making it more enjoyable for myself maybe maybe i should try but i mean i i usually feel like i'm having fun practicing uh and just you know learning about you know you learn new music and it teaches you something about playing your instrument too you know you're because you have to you know maybe figure out how to do something

that you didn't know how to do before you have to figure out how to navigate a you know difficult shift or come up with a different fingering for something that you wouldn't have thought of before or a different Boeing or just, you know, something like that. And I just, you know, I usually find that stimulating just in and of itself, I guess. Yeah, it's like the same national park, but a different trail. Yeah, sure. Yeah, right. That's a good analogy. As I hear you speak about the type of work that's associated with the job of Principal Viola, and of course, I mean, we should all aim to the S prepared as the principal of our section when we're flying.

But what does that look like to, you know, keep one's sanity as you're, you know, you're busy, you're performing, you're teaching. And I think you're still having some solo and chamber music projects along the way. Like, what does that look like to maintain this pace? Yeah, I mean, I usually have to be just kind of looking ahead at my schedule and figuring out what I need to prioritize in terms of repertoire and trying to estimate how long I need to prepare thoroughly enough for something that's coming up. Um, like for instance, where the, the LFL is, uh, you know, about, about a week from now, we're starting rehearsals on, um, Wagner, uh, Die Valkyr, um, which I've played, I think I've played, I've, I've played only parts of it before. I've never played the whole opera before.

So, and it's, you know, the viola part's 130 pages long and there's, you know, I'm familiar with opera. Yes. Right. And, you know, most of the opera, there's stuff you have to practice on every page. So, I mean, I, I, I had to get the part, you know, a few weeks ago and start looking at it. Um, luckily I've, I've, I've listened to the opera before and I'm more or less familiar with how it sounds, but you know, there's a lot of study that goes on with that. And I, I have to, I have to make sure that I give myself enough time to, to really get

through the whole thing and feel like I know it well enough to at least show up for the first rehearsal, you know? So and then, you know, other stuff like when I have solo projects or chamber music, sometimes I will start preparing for that even farther in advance. I played a couple of recitals this spring and some of it was repertoire that I was more familiar with, but some of it I was learning for the first time. And so, I mean, with that, for my approach, I kind of like to prepare stuff like that, like a few months in advance even, and then maybe kind of like let it sit for a while and then come back to it. And I feel like I kind of know it better that way rather than, you know, if I if I leave it for, you know, a couple of weeks before the performance, I feel like I don't end up learning it quite as thoroughly or it's not it's not quite in my fingers the same way as if I do it more in advance like that. and you know I'll practice it for a while and it may not be like totally up to you know performance level but uh if I do that and then and then kind of walk away from it for a little bit and then

come back to it I I find that that kind of works better um at least for me so I love that yeah it sounds like planning is key yeah yeah and you know it's as far as just like keeping in shape too I, I feel like playing, playing chamber music and solo stuff when you have an orchestra job, I, for me, I think that's really important to get to do that regularly. um just because i mean playing in an orchestra there's there's a lot of challenges with with playing orchestra parts but it doesn't necessarily um challenge you in the same way as when you're playing a sonata or concerto or something like that or even a string quartet um it i think you have to think about the music a little bit differently when you're when you're playing a solo um then you you're not you're a little bit more in a box when you're when you're playing in

the orchestra i think you don't have quite as much flexibility and uh it's for me it's important to to continue doing the solo stuff to to keep kind of like growing as a musician i think and just technically as well uh so because i i mean i think when when you're playing in an orchestra and you're just it's week after week of like learning new music or like you know different music practicing different music it's it can go by and you know you feel like you you learned it well enough for for the concert but it's not really quite the same standard as if you're if you're playing a solo piece by yourself I think at least in my experience it's like a different gear or something Yeah, yeah, I think so. It's just, it's just more, it's challenging in a different way. I mean, orchestra playing is, is, is also has its own challenges that are unique to orchestra. But yeah, I think it's good to have a mix of both.

yes I agree and as I hear you speak it reminds me of something else that I hear either from clients or podcast listeners or like colleagues as well as time is for example you've reached a level that you know many musicians dream about and I think that sometimes let's say you're an early career and you're you're thinking about getting at this level there can be this idea that And there's a point where you reach mastery and you feel comfortable all the time. And yet, mastery, the way that I talk about it on this podcast is really never a destination. And so I'm wondering, do you feel like you still hit plateaus at time? And is there any inner struggle maybe at this stage of your career? And how do you handle all of this? Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I mean, maybe some people feel like they have totally mastered the instrument, but I don't know. I feel like I'm still trying to improve every day and every month and every year. um i mean i i don't think i would have gotten to where i am if i had felt that way from the beginning or i i don't know i i i am always trying to challenge myself to try to get better

um uh you know in it also in an orchestra job it's it's really easy to once you get that job and once you win the audition it's really easy to then just kind of stagnate or you know even hopefully not get worse but but it does you know happen if you're not careful and I think for me like I was saying I think it is really important to keep doing that keep playing chamber music and keep doing solo things in order to keep getting better at what I do you know and i i guess for me that's that's paid off but um but i guess your question do i i mean no i i don't i don't feel like i i have completely mastered the instrument i think it would be foolish to say that you felt that way because i i don't i don't really think that that's

possible to be honest so but yeah i mean i of course i i practice things that are difficult for me and you know i sometimes i think god i'm never going to be able to play this well or you know how am i going to get through this but you know i have to remind myself that you just have to be consistent about it and you you have to keep being creative about how you how you approach it and uh keep trying to learn you know learn learn from the people around you learn from recordings things um yeah so just if you keep working at it uh you'll you'll get there eventually i guess it's making me think of again it's all about how you're approaching it and i think that i mean this is kind of a big topic but like one of the ways i think to remain

top shape if you have an orchestra job is how you can stay connected to a specific why that is personal to you because we all see you know it's some people get jaded in jobs in any field and i see around me the people who stay super invested in the job and they they found a way to find meaning behind everything. And sure, in an orchestra, our voice is not as involved in the decision-making, but then it's how can I render that vision to the best of my ability?

And I don't know, it's something I've been thinking about recently too. So I don't want to open a can of worm here, but I think once again, it comes to what you're thinking about it and like who you are as you're doing the job you mean how you stay connected and and feel meaning in playing in an orchestra yeah and like you still feel you feel like you're enjoying it you're staying on top of your craft things like this yeah yeah i mean that's sometimes it's a

challenge um you know but i mean i i don't know i guess it for the most part i feel very lucky to get to do, do the job that I, that I do and, you know, play, play really great music all the time. And, you know, it's sometimes even if it's a, even if it's a piece that, you know, it's not my favorite thing to play. Um, I have to still try to find, you know, pleasure in just playing my instrument, if that makes sense. And, you know, try to, try to have a good time just like, you know, producing a good sound from my, from my viola or, you know, trying to blend well with the people around me or, you know, just trying to listen to see how I fit into the texture and just, just awareness and, and paying attention, I think. Um, and that just that process I think

is, is meaningful to me. Um, even when I'm not, you know, super engaged with wanting to play the repertoire that we're playing that week but um you know and i mean it's you know it's it's part of the job too that even if you're personally wish you were playing something else you still have to try to you know serve the music as much as you can you know and and to try to show it to the audience in a in a in a positive way uh even if you have to fake that a little bit i mean hopefully you don't hopefully you're you're genuinely enjoying it but uh i mean that you know it's it realistically you can't always like be super excited about the music that you're that you're playing especially when there's so much of it coming up coming through your stand but

you know i i try to find something to to enjoy about it all the time so yes it's like life on the fast train yeah yeah i i have a question in the rapid fire question uh rapid fire section about how um like what are something that you would recommend young musicians learn in addition to their instrument but i'd like to ask it here now because i know that you've been teaching for a long time and maybe i'll modify the question a little bit but what what do you see in in the students that you have right now, what do you feel like is important for them to either understand or explore in addition to all of the good stuff, like the technique, learning repertoire, how to memorize, you know, how to play with a beautiful sound, all of this. What do you see as a skill

that is really important for young musicians right now? Well, you know, one thing that that I thought about a lot is just that I think it's important with being a musician to try to maintain curiosity about the musical repertoire and the, and the tradition of performing, even if it's not directly related to what you have to study right now if that makes sense you know and um for me i you know when i when i was a kid i i i should say like i didn't always i i wasn't sure that i wanted to be a musician until i was like maybe 13 or so um and And for me, what what got me really interested in it was I was learning

Brooke Violin Concerto. And I think my dad gave me a CD of, again, Pinky Zuckerman playing Brooke Concerto. And on the same CD, he was playing Brahms Concerto as well. And I had heard the piece before, but like I didn't really know it that well. But I put on the CD, and I started listening to him play Brahms concerto. And I just like, I just really got into it somehow. And I like I really liked it. And I listened to that CD, like, you know, hundreds of times, probably. And then from there, I just got really curious about like, I mean, I liked it so much, I just like wanted more of that. And I, so I started listening to like lots of other stuff, you know, not just violin music, but, you know, I would go, I would go to the public library by my house and just like check out whatever, you know, I would take like 10 CDs at a time of stuff that I just seemed interesting to me.

And I would just listen to all of them, you know, like I listened to string quartets, I listened to piano music, I listened to symphonies, I listened to, you know, piano trios, whatever. um and it wasn't stuff that i was studying i was just like really interested in it and i spent like a lot of hours just like familiarizing myself with the repertoire and you know hearing different performances and listening to how people play things differently and um and And I think that right now, with all the internet and technology and stuff, in some ways, it's a really great thing because it makes it easier to do that. But I think I see in myself and other people that sometimes it can actually make it harder to do that because it's just harder to pay attention when there's so many things, you know, trying to get your attention, you know. And it's a little bit paradoxical that, like, you know, the ease of looking something up on, you know, Spotify or YouTube or whatever, it's great that it's that accessible. but then it's not as valuable somehow when you do sit down because then you sort of feel like,

well, I can just, you know, listen to 30 seconds of this and then like, that's fine. You know, I like, I got, I get the idea, you know, and it's not like a big deal, but like the thing that I always think about is like when, when I was in college doing my undergrad, uh, I mean, there was like internet and email and stuff but it wasn't it it wasn't as it wasn't like it is now uh i mean this was in like early 2000s uh they're just you know you couldn't stream stuff really and i mean i guess maybe there was youtube but i don't think there was like a ton of stuff on it like there is now but so if i wanted to listen to something i would have to you know physically walk over to the music library, go to the computer, look up the call number, write it down,

bring it over to the circulation desk, have them get the CD for me. And then maybe I would do the same thing with a score, you know, go look up a call number and then go find it in the stacks and then go find a listening Carol and put the CD in and sit there. And, you know, after I did all that, which, you know, probably took at least like, you know, 20 minutes or something, I'm not going to sit there and listen to 10 seconds of it and then go home. You know, that's, that's like, you're going to sit there and you're going to concentrate on it. And, you know, when we didn't have, you know, Instagram and cell phones and stuff to be distracting you. And like, I think that's a really valuable thing to get to sit there and, and really concentrate on listening and focus

on, on focus your attention that way and, you know, do that for half an hour or an hour or whatever, whatever you have time for. And I mean, even, you know, for me now, it's, it's harder for me to do that. I, I, I won't lie. Like, it's like, I feel like I've in some way lost that skill, but like, I have to, you know, make myself do that sometimes. But, and, and when I do, I really enjoy it, you know, and it's, you know, it's the same thing with like, you know, reading a book, you know, I, you know, I try to, I try to still make myself read actual like physical books. I mean, I, I really, I've always done that, but I, I really like it, but I, I feel the ways that like the technology kind of is like creeping into my attention world, you know, and trying to like

take that away from me and i have to fight that some so i mean i sorry i give you i give a very long answer to your question but like i i think that um you know just just the curiosity and the the focus that it takes to to really listen to to music and to really um just, just to kind of like have the patience and the, and the focus and the, and the, and the curiosity to really want to like digest the repertoire that way. I think that's, that's something that young people should consciously try to be aware of if they're not already doing it. Cause I, I'm, I mean, I don't,

I don't necessarily know if my students that are doing that the same way that I do, but I sort of suspect that they may not be to the degree that I did when I was their age, you know, so that's, I don't know, that's, that's my advice. just listen to lots of music even if it's not what you even if it's not currently relevant to what you're working on because it is relevant just just not as immediately you know yeah or as immediately obvious right right yeah yeah because i hear you hearing you speak i feel that that curiosity that dedication to go all the way to the music lab and check out scores and listen to it is is something that has a profound impact on on how we're playing because it's not just going in the practice room closed up on your own universe but it's rather opening it up to so much more yeah right and I mean nobody ever became a great musician like in a box like that

you know you you have to learn from other people you have to learn you have to see how other people do things you have to see how they play the instrument and you have to see how they interpret music and you know you can take some of that and leave some of that but then you can make your own choices about that but like you you have to you have to know sort of what you're aiming for in your practicing or else you know it's like you have to have some kind of destination in mind you know it's like that's that's what will make your practicing more productive you know and i i i think about this also with like um like this is maybe more on a little bit more uh smaller scale a little bit more microscopic scale

But the idea of visualizing stuff when you're practicing and the mental process of being able to see in your mind or have a picture of what you're attempting to do when you're practicing. and then trying to direct your body to actually do that thing that you're imagining. Or it can be, you know, imagining a sound that you want to be able to produce or a way that you want to be able to play a phrase and then trying to execute that. Whereas if you don't have a clear picture first of what you're going to do, then it's a lot less likely that you're going to be successful in in producing something good you know and in order to have that picture in the first place you have to be exposed to how other good players do it you know and you know i um i actually think that

uh that kind of visualization is like sometimes overlooked by people and like it's it can be actually really a really powerful tool in practicing and i mean i've had it's it's visualization but it's also like imitation i think in in the ability to try to like imitate something that you saw or heard um and kind of like exercising that part of your brain somehow I mean I don't you know I don't know what part of your brain it is that does that but like I I mean I've had the I've had the experience myself that um you know if I but both I should say both in music and also in in sports or like physical things, which I'm not very, I'm not a very talented, uh, athlete or

sports person, but I, but I have, um, I have had the experience where like I, I play, I play racquetball with my friends, um, a few times a week. And I mean, I'm like a, you know, intermediate level player but um i've had the experience before where if i watch somebody else who's really good and it's i mean it's better in person but videos work to uh some to to some extent but if i watch somebody playing who's really good and then sort of without without trying to analyze it too much or you know like break it down too much just i just watch that other guy playing and maybe think about like one one or two elements of like what i notice about it but then if i if i do like a few minutes of that and then and then go play myself and just sort of like imagine that i am that guy

doing what he was doing sometimes i'm able to like really raise my level like dramatically you know and and i think that's like and it's the same thing with music too like if you listen to somebody who's really great and you try to kind of like let your intuitive mind take over a little bit and just try to imitate aspects of what that person is doing you can do the same thing like really dramatically increase your your level of playing like almost immediately and and it's not always easy to like hang on to that like sometimes you'll you'll you know lose some of that like the next day or whatever but i think the more you try to do that the the more you'll kind of like build it up you know i in it's i think it's also kind of a misconception about practicing and and working

on a skill that it's this sort of like linear progression where where you're like i mean i there is for sure some of that where you keep being consistent and you're you get a little bit better at it each day um but this but this other kind of learning that i'm talking about like it can be like really like a spike in your level um and it may like it may drift back down again but like you you can if the more like spikes you have the more so it's more of like a less of a straight line going up and more of like kind of like a terrorist uh uh trajectory to your to your learning you know so yeah i forget also what the term for this is called but the brain being the pattern recognition machine that it is i think is able to see something and figure out as it

maps it onto its own experience figure out how that applies to us and as you say then create some results without us having cognitively really processed it yet yeah and i agree with you that it might have this instantaneous effect which might disappear but as as we're more aware of it and try to bring it back into the playing then all of that beautiful myelination happens and these neural pathways are created and then we can really consolidate it yeah right and i think i think that's you know it's a skill you can practice too just like trying to consciously like think about like imitating the thing that you see that you want to be able to do you know and the more you practice that the more the faster you'll get at being able to do it you know and which is

why I like mind over finger yeah yeah yeah that's good um I you know I have I have a lot of friends who are musicians, who are also really talented at, at doing like impersonations or like impressions of people. And I don't, I, I don't think that that's a coincidence. I think it's like the same part of your brain. And I think they're good at imitating people because it's a skill that they've practiced with music and it also applies to you know doing like funny impressions of people or something you know so and it's you know it's uh i just i think that's an interesting thing to notice that that like that's that's part of what we do and how we learn and i it's it's also something that i noticed like if i um if i get to play chamber music

with people who are really good i feel like at the end of the rehearsal like i play better too just because i'm like the the act of like playing a string quartet with somebody who's who's a you know other people who are great musicians like i'm trying to play like them in the rehearsal and that makes me play better too you know so it's like just like exposing your yourself to like other great musicians who are you know playing at a level that you want to be able to play at is is like really that's an invaluable thing to to get to do I think yeah I think that's great advice I really seek out opportunities like that yeah Ben in closing do you have an actionable tip for the listeners something that they could implement maybe in their musical life or their their non-musical

life life at large um you know i i mean i think for music for for playing an instrument which is a physical thing i think it's really important to to be in good physical shape too i like for for my for me like i mean i said i'm not a great athlete but i do try to you know to stay in shape and do strength training and that kind of thing because i i think that's you know for the longevity longevity of your career also i mean especially like playing viola it's not it's not the most physically comfortable thing to do all the time especially for many hours a day and you know like having a strong found physical foundation for that i think is really important. So don't neglect that. Very important advice. Ben, thank you so much for spending this

time with us today. I hope that I make it to LA and see you play live at some point in the near future. And I'm grateful for the insight that you shared with us today. Oh, thank you so much. It's been fun to talk to you. And there you have it. Thank you for listening. I hope this episode gave you something valuable to carry with you and bring into your work. If you're ready to bring your best playing to performances, competitions, auditions, tenure track trials, and all the other high stakes moments you have to face in your musical career, I invite you to join the Music Mastery Experience. MME is my high level performance training program for musicians where you're going to learn how to prepare effectively, to trust yourself fully, and to

perform with more confidence, consistency, and freedom under pressure. To learn more and book your free discovery call, visit mindoverfinger.com. Until next time, keep going. Your music matters.