The Mindset Mentor - Dr. David Sinclair on How to Reverse Aging & Live to 150!

Episode Date: April 30, 2021

On this week's episode of Mindset Mentor, Expert Series! Dr. David Sinclair, biologist, professor of genetics, and co-director of the Paul F. Glenn Center for the Biology of Aging at Harvard Medical School, drops by to discuss the wonders of the body and his pivotal studies on the human aging process. Want to learn more about Mindset Mentor+? For nearly nine years, the Mindset Mentor Podcast has guided you through life's ups and downs. Now, you can dive even deeper with Mindset Mentor Plus. Turn every podcast lesson into real-world results with detailed worksheets, journaling prompts, and a supportive community of like-minded people. Enjoy monthly live Q&A sessions with me, and all this for less than a dollar a day. If you’re committed to real, lasting change, this is for you.Join here 👉 www.mindsetmentor.com My first book that I’ve ever written is now available. It’s called LEVEL UP and It’s a step-by-step guide to go from where you are now, to where you want to be as fast as possible.📚If you want to order yours today, you can just head over to robdial.com/bookHere are some useful links for you… If you want access to a multitude of life advice, self development tips, and exclusive content daily that will help you improve your life, then you can follow me around the web at these links here:Instagram TikTokFacebookYoutube

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on aging at this point? That's a pretty tough question to answer. I'm definitely not the leading. There are hundreds of people who work on this topic. As interesting as that is, I've been working at this for now 30 years almost. So if I don't have a reputation yet, I've done something wrong. But I'm not going to say I'm the leading guy. I'm probably one of the most well-known because I've been brave enough to go out in public and talk about it since I was in my 30s, even 20s. And my book that came out, that's also been successful. But, yeah, I am not going to stand up and say I am the greatest. You know, I'm not Muhammad Ali kind of guy.

I'm Australian originally, and Australians definitely don't stick their head up above the poppy field. Tall poppy syndrome? Exactly. Right. You get your head cut off. Yeah. I know a lot about that because we have a lot of Australians that listen to us that happen to be the number one business podcast in all of Australia. And I was like, I don't even know how all the Australians found me. So that's pretty amazing. But the thing I love about your book and everything that you talk about is you take age and aging process and actually kind of flip it on its head and think differently about it.

But before we dive into that specifically, when you look at aging, we think it's just something that we do. It's something that it's going to happen no matter what. But I'm curious from the way that you, your perspective, the way that you describe it, why is it that humans actually age? Well, first of all, let's just get something straight. Just because something happens and it's natural doesn't mean it's good. 200 years ago, we thought you get cancer, you unpack your stuff and can't do much about it, but you develop medicines and you try to stop pain and suffering.

So that, you know, I regard aging as a disease, one that's treatable. And that mindset is very important here. What is aging? Well, people have been trying to figure that out since before the pyramids or even, you know, first block laid down there. So we don't know 100%, but what I put forth in my book is a new theory that has become one of the hottest theories in the field. And that's the idea that it's not just things going wrong. Willy nilly there's, if you boil it down,

actually you can make it into a mathematical equation. It's a loss of information. And I think it's, it's the good, a good time. And the reason that it's being received well is because we live in an information age 50 years ago, people didn't really understand what that meant, but today we can understand that if the body's like a computer and the drives get corrupted or the chips get corrupted and slow down that's aging and that what i think we can do is to reboot the system and reinstall new software and get it to work really well and that's what we're working in

and get it to work really well. And that's what we're working on in my lab, which is to reinstall software into body parts. And we're finding that those body parts become young again, literally, and work again like they were young. Yeah. And so what do you find are the most common softwares that you reinstall for the aging process? Yeah, well, you know, if you want a biology lesson, you can read my book. I'm not going to go too much into it. But the way to think of the body is that there's two types of information. One is the DNA, which we all know.

That's a digital form of information, very robust. It's the reason we can talk through the internet. The other part of the information, the other type in our body, unfortunately, is analog. You know, records, cassette tapes, this is not the kind of information that lasts for a long time and we call that the, not the genetic, but the epigenetic information. And that's the part that I believe gets corrupted most rapidly. Now the good news is though, let me switch analogies, it's not the best, but probably everyone knows what a CD is at this point. The music on a CD or the photos, that's digital information.

But if you scratch the CD, that's like aging. The epigenome, the reading of the information is messed up. You can't read it. So songs skip. And in the body, the equivalent is that the genes that should be on and off in each part of the body, you know, your brain has to have a different set of genes on compared to your liver,

because otherwise the cells are gonna be the same. We all have the same DNA in our cells. So now that hopefully you understand what I think is going on, the scratches on the CD, we've been looking to polish the CD. So that's, you know, a different analogy, but one that I think is going on, the scratches on the CD. We've been looking to polish the CD. So that's a different analogy, but one that I think is apt. And what we do is we use gene therapy at this point. We turn on three particular genes that are normally only turned on in embryos

to develop a very robust, healthy child. We turn them on in adult animals. So we're taking mice. They're old. They can't see. They're blind. And we put those three genes into the back of the eye. We turn them on for three, four, five weeks. We can go as long as we want.

And the eyes, they go back in time. The retina, the optic nerves literally become young. They don't just get healthier. We measure their age. We can measure that. We can measure the scratches and when they're young they get their eyesight back fully first time that's been done to actually reverse aging we think that we can do that probably in in many other tissues we're working on hearing

uh loss um some early results we're gonna work on uh other parts of the body so spleen liver and the most exciting part uh the one that keeps me up at night, is whole body rejuvenation. Imagine a world where you either take a pill or a gene therapy. You fill your body with these three embryonic genes, and then you take an antibiotic or some drug that turns it on. That's how we do it in the mice. We give them a doxycycline to turn it on.

And then your doctor monitors you. or some drug that turns it on. That's how we do it in the mice. We give them a doxycycline to turn it on. And then your doctor monitors you. Okay, you've gone back far enough in age. You know, I'm 51. Three weeks later, okay, David, you've gone back to 35. Do you want to keep going? Yeah, give me another 10 years. Go back.

Stop it. You don't want to go too far. And then, you know, you arrange another visit 20 years later. So that's what we're talking about theoretically, though it's early days because we're still in mice. Interesting. So I know that I hear, I've heard Bruce Lipton talk a lot about epigenetics and he talks about how the DNA matters,

but in some cases, it seems like the epigenetics matter sometimes even more where it's, and the way I guess he explains epigenetics is it's kind of like you have the DNA and you have the genes, but the epigenetics is kind of the environment that it is. And if you change the environment, it can be healthier for it or cancerous for it, but you're talking about not just changing the environment, but also taking new cells and new stuff and putting it into it directly, right? Yeah, that's essentially the right thing to

imagine, but it's a little bit better than that, more exciting. What we've discovered is, my colleagues and I, is that the information to be young, the DNA is largely intact in our body. We didn't realize that. So the hardware is all there. The main information, digital, is there. It just doesn't get used. And what that means is that we can tap into it, that aging is far more reversible than we ever thought. And this epigenome has become one of the hottest things in biology right now, because you're right, it is affected by how we live. And when you are overweight, you don't exercise, you spend 20-20 sitting in a chair like a lot of us did, that affects your epigenome. And in good and bad ways, there are longevity genes that we study that if you have a sedentary

lifestyle don't eat the right foods, those longevity genes get switched off and they don't protect the right foods those longevity genes get switched off and they don't protect your body conversely uh you know you don't smoke you exercise you eat rarely i skip a meal at least a day then the longevity genes come on and protect your body and stop those and slow down those scratches from occurring but here's one thing most people don't realize we tend to think our dna is our destiny. That's totally wrong when it comes to aging. And we know this from studying tens of thousands of people measuring their clock over time.

80% of what you experience in aging depends on how you live your life. And only 20% is your DNA from your parents. And that really is motivational. It should be to do all the right things. Yeah. Yeah, I saw a study that came out a couple of days ago and they were talking about COVID and said that obviously the number one thing that's killing people is age. But the second thing seems like that the factors from obesity seem to be as well. So it looks like age, it's funny because in the article it says age is something that you can't do anything about. It looks like you would

definitely want to go into debate about that. on the other side it then talks about obesity and there's all the stuff that comes from that diabetes um you know cardiovascular issues as well so it seems like the actual two biggest issues now talking to you actually can be worked through to actually help people be healthier boost their immune system and actually be able to fight it better it seems well they're inextricably linked. Obesity, heart disease, Alzheimer's, even cancer, these are manifestations of aging. And let's talk about obesity just for a second. It's known that the clock of aging ticks faster if you're overweight. And so it's not that obesity is just the problem. It's that your obesity is accelerating your aging.

And that's why obesity causes a whole range of diseases, including cancer. Your body clock is ticking. So if you can lose that weight and your body clock will slow down. But the other thing to think about is what is the root cause of most suffering on the planet? What is the root cause of most suffering on the planet what is the root cause of disease well we know that for cancer for example the majority of the risk for cancer is aging the processes that drive aging we forget about that we try to treat cancer after it occurs we forget about the preceding 50 years that lead up to that typically. And you can have a big difference on your cancer rates. I'll give you one example.

So my mother died of lung cancer. She smoked, which accelerated her clock. It mutated her DNA as well, which was not helpful. But her risk of getting cancer because of smoking went up five fold above the average person. Whereas going from age 20 to 70 increases your risk more than 200 fold. So which is more important to work on smoking or cancer? Well, I'd say do both, but we ignore the major cause of cancer in the world. Yeah. Which is people's environment,

what they put in their body, how they take care of themselves. And one of the things that you said that I put down that I was really interested on, which I haven't heard you speak a whole lot about is just the, just being sedentary and just sitting all the time. Like that's one of the things that you said that I put down that I was really interested on, which I haven't heard you speak a whole lot about, is just being sedentary and just sitting all the time. That's one of the things that I'm getting better at is every hour trying to get up and move in some sort of way. And the thing that I've heard it explained is sitting is basically the new cancer. What is the issue with sitting so much and how do you see that happening in affecting the aging process? issue with sitting so much and how do you see that happening in affecting the aging process well i had personal experience of that when i wrote my book which took 10 years but i was literally sitting for about 18 months every day and night i ended up suffering my health went

um i could barely walk because my piriformis muscle atrophied and then seized up it was in a cramp for six months and that's the muscle that that goes through that hole in your pelvis um and it took me six months of exercise and therapy to get back to walking again so i've switched over to having a standing desk uh it's right next to me just here i go on a lot of walks so why why is sitting so bad well first of all your heart rate doesn't go up You're basically at minimal basal heart rate, which is bad. Second of all, if your major muscles atrophy, if you're a man, you're going to have less testosterone.

But even for women, that lack of muscle bulk is super bad, not just because your hormones are diminished, but particularly those people who are my age and older, if you have weak muscles it's super bad because a it's very hard to get them back it took me a lot of work and it's harder the older you get but the number one or maybe one of the top five not number one but one of the major causes preventable causes of death is falling over and breaking your leg or your hip and you've got to keep those muscles that are required for standing really strong

so that if you fall, you don't break, you just bounce. Yeah, it seems like one of the things that's happening is people are getting too comfortable, it seems, right? When you're staying inside, inside of my house, it's at 72 degrees all the time. I can sit most of the day and do all that. But then also at the same time, if you think about it, we don't put our body through enough stress. I live in Austin. I don't know if you heard about the whole snow apocalypse thing where it's just crazy. So our ancestors would have been outside in that. There would have been massive amounts of stress of going down to five degrees and all that.

But the thing that I'm curious of and that I like to do is I like to kind of seek discomfort. I love, there's a lot of, and I don't even really do it, I guess, for the body effects. I actually do it more for the mindset effects of really pushing myself and doing something that's uncomfortable. One of the things, there's a couple of things I want to dive into with you on it, but one of the things is actually intermittent fasting, which I know you talk a lot about. I'm really curious with what type of fasting people should do. You said that you normally skip one to two meals, what that looks like. And then also long-term fasting, one day, two days, three days, because

if people have done research, they talk about when you go three days or so, it seems like your body starts to clear out old dead cells and create new ones. So I'd really love to dive into fasting long-term and also intermittent fasting as well. Exactly. So this is the concept that's most important and always keep in your mind that your body isn't healthy if it's comfortable. Our mind wants to be comfortable. We want to sit and watch TV and eat popcorn. That's very enjoyable. But if you always do that, your mind and particularly your body will atrophy. So you do need to push it.

You'd need to be uncomfortable at least part of the time and then you recover. Hey, did you know that monotasking is better for mental performance than multitasking? Whether it's simply cleaning your kitchen can reduce excessive snacking and listening to happier music

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Trust and Will documents are designed by estate planning experts and customized for the state that you live in. And as you get older, you realize how important it is to make sure that all of your stuff is buttoned up like this, which is why. Being hungry once in your breath is great. Being hungry once in a while is great. Being hot in a sauna has benefits. Even being cold, we think, can help. We call these concepts, well, overall, they're called hormesis, H-O-R-M-E-S-I-S.

And the idea is that our bodies need a little bit of perceived adversity. Think of it this way, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. And what's happening, we've discovered, comes back to these longevity genes that I mentioned earlier. We work on a set of seven genes called sirtuins. There are others, but these ones control the scratches and they control your body's energy and fat content, your brain, Alzheimer's, even how fast that progresses. And here's the key thing. When you exercise, when you're hungry, these genes come on. They protect the body.

They give you longer life, we think, and certainly health, increased health. But when you're sitting down, you don't do any of that stuff. They just say, hey, times are good, you don't do any of that stuff. They just say, hey, times are good. We don't need to work hard. Your body will not protect itself unless it actually thinks there's a threat to survival. So that's hormesis and it's super important. So is that, is hormesis the longevity gene that you're speaking of? Well, hormesis is the concept of keep your body in a stress state every day, once in a while. But actually getting to your point, Rob, about being hungry in particular, I've always tried to keep a lean

weight. I just have known that that's healthier. So I've tried to do that. But I thought that eating small meals during the day was the way to go because that's what nutritionists have said for at least most of the 20th century. I don't believe that anymore. I think that the idea that you should always be satisfied and have snacks in between meals is wrong. I mean, certainly not wrong for teenagers. We don't want malnutrition or starvation, heaven forbid. But what we're talking about is people 30, 40, 50 and beyond where metabolism is starting to slow down. You're already gaining weight if you eat three meals a day. you don't want to do that so i skip breakfast i often skip lunch i have a normal dinner healthy greens and maybe a bit of meat um i've recently switched uh to just fish as meat to see how that goes but what's important

is when you've got that hunger state um and you call it hunger but i'm really never hungry i'm used to this after two weeks you don't feel hungry. I'm drinking tea and coffee in the morning. It feels great, actually. I feel much better than being bloated. What's going on at the cellular level is a lot. Those longevity genes come on, and they turn on a process in particular called autophagy. You might call it autophagy, depending on where you live. And that is the process that grabs the old proteins in the cell and digest them. We have a lot of old proteins that sit around and don't do a lot of good. In fact, in the case of Alzheimer's disease, that's the reason we get Alzheimer's disease is a lot of misfolded old proteins, one called A-beta, for example. And our bodies need to chew those up to

stay young and healthy. And a really good friend of mine and colleague down at Albert Einstein College of Medicine, her name is Maria Ana Cuervo or Ana Maria Cuervo. You should look her up if you're curious. She's the star of this and she's discovered a type of autophagy that happens when you go hungry for three or more days. And it's called chaperone-mediated autophagy. And that's the deep cleanse. That grabs all of the really bad proteins and old ones

that have crystallized and formed these tight bundles that are very hard to get rid of and just choose them up. And she has new work. I think it's coming out in the next few weeks, actually. She just had a nature paper. Now she's coming out with another big paper that says if you turn this process on in a mouse it lives dramatically longer um i i think it was at least 20 longer and they're healthier they look great you look at a mouse that's got this and

it's shiny and black coat and the other ones are gray and can barely walk it's huge and right now the only way to stimulate that process is to go hungry or skip meals i should say real um but we're developed i'm working with anna maria on a medicine that would give you know patients that kind of feeling so that older people sick people people in hospital you know obviously wouldn't have to uh fast for three or more days that's not necessarily what you want to have if you're recovering from a disease. But here's the point, you can induce hormesis with a pill. And that's what a lot of my companies work on. Interesting. So is there a fast that's too long? Because I've sat with a doctor before who said, you know, I was telling him I was thinking

about doing a 10 day water fast. And he's like, well, at that point in time, it actually starts to be, you know, you're going so far that you're actually starting to do harm to your body. So is it three, four, five days that tends to be perfect to go into this hormesis? And then is three days the amount of time that we at least want to go to to get into that state? What is the typical amount of time that you guys recommend? Yeah.

Well, there's two mistakes in your sentences, unfortunately, Rob. Probably be a lot more thought for the rest of the interview. It's totally inadvertent. I'm being a bit facetious. Uh, we don't recommend stuff. I definitely don't recommend stuff. I can tell you scientifically what's known. And then the other mistake was we actually don't know we're on the cusp of learning this, but, uh, we know that three days is good. Is five days optimal or do you start to lose muscle mass too much?

And doctors like Peter Attia, A-T-T-I-A, a good friend of mine, he's self-experimenting. He's got some patients, but we really don't know. We need more clinical trials to know that. I would say that what I do is harmless. Three days, probably all good. Five days, I would start to think that any more than that would start to take away muscle mass and you don't want to do that. Yeah. So one of the things that I hear a lot of people talk about, it seems like it's been very prevalent is neurodegenerative diseases, which you kind of spoke about for a second, Alzheimer's and dementia. My girlfriend, both of her grandparents on her

dad's side had either dementia or Alzheimer's as well. And that's one thing that she worries about for herself and then also for her father. So when you're saying these people don't go into this, if I'm understanding correctly, when they don't go into hormesis, basically they have old proteins and cells that are still inside of the body that the body hasn't flushed out. Is that what turns into the amyloid plaques that then destroy the actual brain itself? Or is that something that's separate? And then in that case where somebody knows they have something, because there's a lot of people that have somebody that had a neurodegenerative disease in their family.

Obviously, we can't recommend, but the science, what does it say is best for that person knowing that that possibly could come down the line for them? All right. Well, first the diet, then the science. So the diet, I'm working with Dean Ornish. You might've heard of the Ornish diet. So Dean and I are with another five other scientists running a clinical trial on Alzheimer's patients and so far seeing dramatic results. Now, his diet is lower on calories and focusing on plants

and just really healthy food. And it seems to be working. Now, we'll publish this and we'll do more patients and get more data. But I think that that's the right approach is what he's saying. So if you want to look up the Ornish diet, I'd doing that o n o r n i s h now the science now there are misfolded proteins that accumulate in your brain from these little crystals a beta i mentioned is one alpha sign nucleon is another and they're very hard to clear it's thought that actually your body just cannot get rid of these crystals

and you find them inside the cell and very much so outside the cell. Now there's been a lot of debate, which is the worst form? I think it's clear that some of these are bad for you, no doubt, because there's some therapies based on the clearance of these proteins outside the cell using antibodies

and they're starting to see some pretty promising results but i'll tell you my view is that it's far easier to prevent them than to try to reverse them and this is why it frustrates me that very few doctors focus on what you can do leading up to actually getting getting the disease and that's not just true for alzheimer's disease it's true for everything right and i think doctors, because their training has been on, we only treat diseases. We're not preventative, you know, medicine doctors. That's for the kooks. We need to change that attitude. I mean, how many people's doctors spend half of the time with their patient talking about lifestyle, which I would say, especially in midlife is far more important than worrying about what kind of flu you might be catching.

Yeah. Yeah. I'm curious also that as well. One of the things that I literally just got delivered yesterday, it's in my garage is a sauna. So a traditional sauna. And also I do cold plunge therapy and usually I put a, you know, I talk about all the time just for the mental benefits of pushing myself and doing it. And now it seems like they're starting to, you know,

Wim Hof is starting to go viral and people are loving all this stuff and people are looking into it. When you look at the hot, cold therapy, heat shock proteins, all those types of things that come out when you do this, what are the benefits with hot and cold therapy that you're noticing? And then also what do you recommend for people who might decide to buy a sauna or might decide to start doing cold plunges? Is there too much? Is there too little that you find?

Well, again, we're on the cutting edge and Wim Hof is right on the bleeding edge. The science says that, yeah, turning on heat shock proteins and hot temperature saunas in general do seem to have long-term benefits on health there are some studies that i have referenced in my book which people can go to to get more detail but typically it's in finland where pretty much every house seems to have a sauna if you look at people who do a lot of sauna bathing they are protected i think it was 30 less chance of heart having a heart attack late in life.

So those studies are convincing. Actually, I was surprised how convincing the data is. Exactly how they work, we don't know. It might also involve the turning on of these longevity genes due to hormesis. The cold therapy is actually less known about, but the best explanation I can give right now is that there are longevity genes that respond to cold, not just hot. The sirtuin genes that I work on, there's one called number three, sirtuin three, that comes on during cold. And it's really healthy. It turns on the body's brown fat processes and burns energy, revs up the mitochondria, the battery packs in the cell. And brown fat, which we didn't even know existed 20 years ago in adults, it's usually baby fat.

Babies cannot shiver. They have to use brown fat to get warm. But adults can build it up, particularly on the back and other regions. It depends on how old you are and who you are. But being cold, I bet you that Wim Hof has a ton of brown fat and that keeps his metabolism going. But also brown fat secretes these little hormones that are increasingly thought to be healthy as well so it's not just your fat that's in good shape that your whole body gets the benefits long term hey let me tell you about my favorite drink

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But you're talking about the brown fat, not the white fat, is right? Well, yeah, it's not building up more fat. It's converting the fat in your body to become brown or beige. So yeah, you don't build up fat. It's quite the opposite, actually. It'll make you thinner if you have more brown fat. So more brown fat will make you thinner. That's going to be a...

People would never think that having more fat would make you thinner. But from what I've heard also as well, it seems like the brown fat you've said before has um energy producing mitochondria that's in as well oh exactly and and actually what happens is those mitochondria when you get cold can uncouple now uncoupling will extend the lifespan of flies and mice and basically what uncoupling is is that the body uses some proteins called uncoupling proteins to basically punch holes or let holes through the mitochondria so quick biology lesson mitochondria are like a hydroelectric dam there's a lot of water inside that gets let out and as they pass through the hydroelectric turbine, they make energy. And if you let the water through somewhere else, you're not going to be able to make as much energy.

And in doing so, your body that has the food in it, you eat a muffin, it's not going to make as much energy. So it has to work harder and you expend more energy. What happens to the energy? Well, laws of physics still apply. It comes out as heat. What happens to the energy? Well, you know, laws of physics still apply. It comes out as heat.

And so your body might go up 0.01 degree Fahrenheit or Celsius. It's very subtle. You don't feel it, but you're expending more energy. And that over the long run leads to less weight gain. Interesting. So one of the things that you mentioned real quickly as well is mostly plants, but a little bit of fish is what you feel like you've switched to. So I always hear people talk about red meat's good for you, red meat's bad for you, stay away from pork. I mean, there's every possible thing you can think of, obviously. But what are you finding as far as if there's science

around it between the fish, the chicken, the pork, the beef, and how that either helps us with aging or actually holds us back with aging? Well, this is a huge debate. There's the carnivores who attack me on social media, kindly. I know most of them, so it's not vicious like it could be. But it's a healthy debate. Really, we don't know. There's some evidence that, at least in mice, you know, we're not mice, so fair is fair. But in mice, if you give them a certain amount of protein, particularly meat-based protein, and there are chemicals in red meat

that get converted, can cause atherosclerosis. So that's one possibility that red meat is bad for you. Processed meat's definitely bad. The nitrates, there are carcinogens in there. So I try to avoid that though. You know, Sunday piece of nibble on bacon is certainly fine. But what I'm convinced by more than a mouse study even are epidemiological studies. You go to the world like Dan Buettner has, blue zones and you look where are people the healthiest

where don't they get cancer where do they live over a hundred and on average and these blue zones you look at what they eat and they're typically eating if you're in the Mediterranean they're eating a lot of vegetables olive oil getting a lot of exercise fair amount of red wine and you know that that sounds like my diet right And it's not a bad diet to have. They might go fishing in the Mediterranean, pull out a fish and eat that. Some sardines, a lot of good oils in there. And the olive oil, by the way, actually we found or somebody else found, but we've confirmed activates one of these longevity gene pathways that we study, the sirtuins, which is pretty cool cool the idea that olive oil is good for

you because it's turning on a longevity mechanism but that's another story um if you go to okinawa they have a really interesting diet too there's a book that i love called the okinawa program where they also they exercise they they eat not a lot they stop eating a meal at 70 percent full uh they're they're in the in fields. They have a social network. They eat a lot of plants and they only eat fish generally, maybe a little bit of pork, but not much. And they're the longest lived people on the planet.

There's a lot of people out there that are still working the fields in their 90s and 100 above. So all of that convinces me that the best bang for your buck is more of a rabbit's than a lion's diet. But then again, some people have a shock when they learn that I very occasionally or I might eat some cheesecake or I might eat a steak. It's not worth living if you can't eat the foods you love. I just try to

limit it to special occasions and when I really feel like it. Now, if we're talking about stress and discomfort, is there benefits to every once in a while, once a week, once a month, whatever it is, to literally just going all out and going crazy and eating? Is there a benefit to that at all? Because we're talking about stressing the body in different ways. Is there a benefit to just having a cheat day and just eating whatever you want or a cheat meal passing out because you don't have enough energy because your body's got to digest it all and then going back and not doing that for another month or so? Is there actual benefit or any science behind it at all? I haven't seen any science behind it. But last weekend, I had to spend Sunday in bed, put it that way, after a pretty big night.

But I don't think it does long-term harm if you do it once in a while. If you do it a lot, you're going to hurt your liver, you're going to build up fat in your liver, just probably hurt some neurons in your brain. But once in a while, I mean, I do it because I love life, but you can also do it because you just need some mental relief. You can't always be so strict, I find. And probably the best effect on it is the fact that you know that you can have a bit of fun once in a while. And it's that mental stress relief that benefits.

But I don't know. I don't think a lot of food and a lot of alcohol. I haven't seen any benefits. If I find it, you'll be the first to know. So one thing that I've heard you say that you do avoid though is sugars and carbs. I'm really curious with that why you tend to avoid those. Well, I try to avoid them. I've learned even through wearing a glucose monitor that type 2 diabetics wear, what trigger me now we're all different we have

different microbiomes and whatever genetics so what i try to avoid things that shoot my blood sugar straight up now cheesecake is not going to make me live longer but again you know i don't do that that often but generally on it during the week i would try to avoid white rice white bread even bread i'm starting to wean myself off because that just shoots the sugar up. Sushi, unfortunately, I love sushi. That still is bad for me. So the reason that I do that actually is it's clear that having high blood sugar and continuous high blood sugar is bad in the long run. You can measure your long-term blood sugar levels.

It's called HbA1c. It's what your doctor will test midlife to see if you've got type 2 diabetes. And that's basically glucose attached to your hemoglobin, which is an average. As that goes up, it's perfectly, not perfectly, but as highly correlated with heart disease and of course, type 2 diabetes and even cancer so you want to over your life

keep those levels relatively low on average it can spike it's not going to kill you and that's why I essentially gave up desserts at age 40 I say essentially because I do steal some and occasionally eat it but probably most of the time I'd rather have a little piece of cheese instead. And I think that's the best way to go. Lower blood sugar, lower HbA1c will prevent glucose from binding to your proteins. Remember we were saying these proteins get misfolded and messed up. to your proteins remember we were saying these proteins get misfolded and messed up and so this is called glycation and it happens during aging and you don't want it to happen it's like cooking your food on the barbecue it's it's terrible stuff now you can get rid of it with

fasting but in general it's best not to accumulate this so that's why i wouldn't say i totally avoid carbs the other reason for avoiding carbs by the way you know, I enjoy food and the more the better. And if I don't eat a lot of carbs, then I can eat more food. So I stick to foods, you know, that are full of flavor and I really enjoy. I'll admit something that I've never admitted publicly. If I put something in my mouth and I'm not at a fancy restaurant that has no taste, tastes like crap, I will consider spitting it out because I would rather replace that with something that's really tasty. This is not an eating disorder. This is just, was that mouthful of whatever worth it? I don't think so.

That's awesome. I love that. The thing that I'm real curious about, I've never really asked this, but that's come on is about three years ago, my girlfriend and I decided to go gluten-free because she was having a lot of problems with eczema and started seeing the gut biome and all of that stuff. What's your thoughts around gluten? And is it something that you recommend that people avoid or is it something that you just feel like is is uh and i know it's different depends on where you are like my mom has gluten issues she can go to italy and she can eat anything here she can't eat any gluten in america so i mean what are your thoughts around gluten and consuming it

well i'm not the world's expert i know enough enough to be dangerous here. So yeah, gluten is an issue. And cutting back on grains in general, certainly processed grains is a good thing for the reasons I just mentioned anyway. And there is a sensitivity, no question. You can have it tested by your doctor and there's a lot of it. The thing to remember is we all have different guts. We have different microbes. We have different sensitivities. And I totally believe that gluten does harm to a lot of people. I don't know if it's the majority of people. I think there might be a lot of people who suspect a gluten sensitivity,

whereas it's probably something else. But yeah, I mean, it's a real thing, and you can have it checked out. And you can do self-experimentation like I do, because we're all different. We need to know if it works for us, whatever we're trying and yeah, go, go off gluten and see if you feel better. There's certainly no harm in that. Yeah. I'm curious because we talked about cancer a little bit as well. And we also talked about Wim Hof. Is there any studies around breath work in, youygenation? Because I know that from the stuff I've read that usually cancer, if you're looking at the place that it is, cancer tends to grow in an acidic environment. People talk about how if you're overoxygenated, that's an alkaline environment.

Do you know of anything around breathwork and overoxygenating the body that way? Well, yeah. So the Warburg effect is what it's called and cancer cells love sugar and don't use a lot of oxygen for that reason they're in a hypoxic state whereas the opposite is hyper oxygenation and now i i don't think uh that i've seen evidence that just breathing a lot would make any difference, but you can do hyperbaric chamber therapy and there is some really interesting data that just came out not on cancer, but on what was it?

It was dementia, I believe and there's also as a paper that came out looking at telomeres the ends of the chromosomes that That represent your age and get shorter as you get older. They reversed that process with age, just with some therapy in this hyperbaric oxygen chamber. So I think there's some merit to it. And I've done some work on this as well. We find that, I won't get too much into it, but having, as you get older, your muscles get tricked into thinking that there's not enough oxygen around. They become hypoxic and they shut their own mitochondria down because they think, oh, this person's not breathing enough. They've gone to the top of Mount Everest, so they don't make as much mitochondria.

The problem there is that your body's in a state of hypoxia which is bad you don't make mitochondria you don't make energy you feel probably you feel lethargic and we found that by blocking that process and getting the cells back in a couple of weeks to feeling normal mice could now run twice as far on a treadmill that was super healthy super super fit, had the energy back. And so, yeah, it's this oxygen stuff and mitochondria is intimately linked to aging. And the older you get, the less mitochondrial activity you have. Now, you can boost that up again, probably by exercising, by being a bit cold, and perhaps even by heavy breathing. That part I don't know about, but it's really important. And I think it's the future for a lot of therapies,

given what I've seen. Interesting. So it's fun because I feel like you're right on the cusp of all of the stuff that was weird five years ago, like people were making fun of, and it's like, oh, this actually could have some sort of merit to it. So it seems like cold therapy was made fun of going in saunas was made fun of breathing was made fun of fasting was made fun of all of these things were made fun of, but it seems like the core of it is really putting your body under some

form of stress because when it gets too comfortable is where it becomes an issue. So it's finding some part throughout the day where you, I mean, even if I'm thinking about it, you're talking about being sedentary. I'm thinking like, all right, if I'm sitting down and watching Netflix, should I jump up and do like, you know, 50 jumping jacks and 50 pushups and then go, all right, now I can go back to watching Netflix every hour. Is that like, is that, that's probably even more beneficial than just sitting there watching Netflix for an hour, an hour and a half, right? Well, yeah, that's a little extreme. Hopefully you're not cuddling with somebody under a blanket at that point. But you know, sometime during the day, you should be moving. If you're older,

just go on a walk. If you feel like getting on a treadmill for a few seconds or for 10 minutes, that's fine. I do a fair amount of weightlifting, you know, despite what you might think. And that is also important long-term. Your body, your muscles in particular will secrete hormones that have long-term benefits as well and allow you to eat more and burn fat. So all of that is good. You do want to do it, but you need rest as well. Don't forget, you can't run a marathon every day and expect to be healthy. And so I have days of rest as well. And that's when you should watch Netflix. Yeah. On the rest days. On the rest days, we're eating all that you possibly can, right? Yeah. Once in a while.

Yeah. I don't think that's the thing that's going to help. I put up a question that I had a feeling. And number one, I have a feeling I know your answer. Number two, I had a feeling I knew what the question back would be from everybody. I put up on my Instagram and I was like, hey, I'm going to talk to one of the front runners as far as anti-aging and aging in general, what questions you have. You might not be surprised by this question. The number one question that came back was from a lot of women. And it said, what to put on their face to remove lines. I have a feeling I know what your answer is going to be around this.

It probably has something to do with besides just putting something on your face. But with the look of aging, what helps with that? Yeah, well, so I have a fair number of VIP clients who are asking me these same questions. The good news is that if you do what I do, probably what's happening is your whole body will stay healthier and younger. And your skin is a very large organ, if not the largest. So you can start on the inside. You don't need to slather yourself with stuff um i don't know you can judge me i'm 51 so i haven't got a gray hair yet um and i don't think i've lost much either so you know that's what we call an n of one clinical trial not exactly helpful but i do believe that you should start on the inside

and you can apply things from the outside there are are, I mean, the easiest thing to do is just avoid the sun. I grew up in Australia, unfortunately, when it was fashionable to get burnt. That's going to come back to haunt me. So avoid the sun. Take vitamin D. That's also very good long term for health and the skin. There's retinol, which actually does work. I would say that's something that a lot of people already know. There are creams that are purported to raise NAD

levels. NAD is a molecule we work on in my lab. And that's the fuel for these sirtuins that I've talked about, these longevity genes. And actually, as we get older, the NAD levels in the skin go down by about twofold. So in my 50s, I'm 51, as I said, I would have roughly half the levels as I did when I was 20. So maybe you can raise the levels of NAD in the skin with a cream.

Instead, I take a pill that raises my NAD levels. I talk about it in the book, page 304, if you want to learn all that stuff. I think it's possible to slow aging in the skin. And then if that doesn't work, there's always the other cosmetic stuff. But I think you want to start early in life. Once you're in your 30s, when I started, it's a long-term program. You cannot expect to start at 45 and instantly reverse the effects.

Yeah, I had a feeling you were going to say it started from the inside out. There's not a whole lot of magic effects that actually takes, people want the fix-all. They just want to fix it and look young immediately. But I'm curious with that and with skin in general, what do you know about red light therapy around the skin and producing mitochondria as well

yeah i i think it's got legs as a scientist i tried to extend the lifespan of nematode worms with this red light in my lab it didn't work but i haven't given up given up on it yet um i think there's something to the red light therapy there's some reasonable data on uh what is it hair growth uh from this so probably there's something going on but it's really not well studied we need a lot more i've seen that you can buy these red lights um someone even sent me one to be honest i haven't used it much but i think that there's there's good reason to think that certain wavelengths could trigger your body into a hormesis effect. Yeah, I think where I stand on that is we need more research, but I doubt that it's doing harm. Right. So I'm curious because you said something,

I want to get really clear on it. You said avoid the sun. Now, do you mean completely avoid the sun or do you mean avoid you know, avoid getting burned? Because a lot of people are going to be like, he said, don't go out. So I'm not going to go out. But I've also heard that being, having at least some sunlight triggers, you know, turns off like between turns on or off like 300 switches inside of your brain and your body and all of this stuff. So, so with sunlight and getting the vitamin D from sunlight, but also taking it, um, as you recommended, um, what is, What is your recommendation around sunlight? Yeah, well, disclaimer, I don't recommend stuff,

but what I can tell you is that- That's right, no recommendations. What does the science say around sunlight? Yeah, thank you, Rob. Thanks for bringing that up. Maybe I misspoke. What I meant to say was, don't stay in the sun long enough

for there to be irreversible damage so a little bit of sunlight is good i walk out i haven't been out that much because it's middle of winter here in boston but yeah some sunshine is fine but but don't do it for you know more it depends on the uv but i would these days because i'm you know pasty as much as a vampire would be i would i don't want to spend more than half an hour out there in the sun. That's enough. But think of it as a competition between DNA damage. What's happening with the sunlight is your DNA gets cross-linked

and your body has to come in and take out those cross-links and put a new piece of DNA in. And your body takes time to do that. And the older you get, the worse it gets, the slower it is. And it's a balance of damage repair damage repair and if you don't repair it you get mutations and epigenetic changes too don't forget so what i like to do is i you know get a bit of sun it's healthy for sure you get a bit of a tanning effect too but if you stay red you've overdone it your body can't cope and it's got

inflammation so you're limited but you know I wasn't trying to say live in your basement or the rest of your life I'm eager to get out this pandemic has been pretty harsh on myself and all of us yeah so I've heard you talk about you know nad and mm a few different other things as well a lot of podcasts but one thing that I've heard a lot about recently, maybe just because of people that I hang out with, is something called BPC-157. It's a peptide that you inject into different parts of your body that you want to regrow, but also like joints as well. Have you heard any of the science around BPC-157 at all? Well, I hear it a lot. People ask me that. I don't know enough even to talk about it

with any authority. I'm sure it has effects because athletes have taken it. It's not approved for human clinical use by any authority. And it's thought there may be some negative effects. So it's on a prohibited list depending on waiting on new research. Also athletes, it's part of that doping test. There's tests getting developed. So I don't know enough. I mean, maybe you do to say something about it. I wouldn't say that I'm authority in it. I don't recommend anything

either. So that's one thing I want to make sure of. So we've covered a lot of different things. And so I know everyone's, there's a lot of different things we've jumped around in, but you know, if we're saying, okay, for the typical person, I'm 35, about to be 35 years old, right? If we're going through and we're saying the science as far as sleep to waking up to the stresses to put my body through, the type of stuff to eat, the fasting, how often to do all of it. What is a typical, as far as the science says, what would a typical really good day look like as far as the stress we put our bodies through, the stuff that we eat, how

often we eat, does it matter when we eat, and then also how much sleep we should have. And if there is a time of when we should go to bed we should not get better if none of that actually matters it all matters um but again don't be so strict on yourself because you you'll stress about not sleeping that that can backfire well let's see let's start with a typical day for me uh get up uh shower i'll have a cup of tea or coffee, little bit of milk doesn't hurt, bit of stevia certainly doesn't hurt. I will most days have a little piece of,

not piece, spoonfuls of yogurt, probably a Greek yogurt or one I make myself. And I sprinkle in about a gram of resveratrol. This is the molecule in red wine that we discovered activates the sirtuins um going back to 2003 now but if anyone you know hears that red wine is good for your slowing your aging that's that's our lab so i do that i've been doing that for a long time yeah actually when we published that in nature back then, red wine sales went up 30% and it stayed up. So you're welcome, red wine industry.

So I do that. And then I go hungry. I'm not hungry. I fast probably until late afternoon or go all the way to dinner. During the day, I'll try to stand up. I'll go on a walk. I'll go to the gym maybe once every three days, lift some weights, run on a treadmill for five, ten minutes. And that's a good day for me. When it comes to the night, it's very important

to dim the lights. You and I are looking into the screen all day. I've got lights here on my face. That's really bad, this blue light in particular. And so I dim that at night automatically on my phone or my computer. There's a piece of software called f.lux which is great for computing I wear those yellow glasses to block out the blue light if I watch tv and I try not to do a lot of computing after 10 o'clock at night though it's difficult right we're all on our phones and then i try to get to sleep then you know i practice breathing and try to calm down because i'm going at 200 miles an hour every day and i try to get a good night's sleep every night if i can i typically do i know if i do because i've got this aura ring on and that's a good day so why do all that well hormesis and even the sleep wake cycle it's important that i take my

nmn which is the nad booster i you know this is my part of my breakfast that's the nad boosting molecule which we're testing clinical trials right now any of my colleagues who say i'm just experimenting now this is we have clinical data at this point uh it's not a medicine yet but hopefully it will be. So there's that, there's Zverotrol, that's in the morning. So I get this, I feel this boost and it sustains through the day. But then at night I need to come down, the NAD levels would come down by then. And I get a good night's sleep, which is important.

We know that that cycle, the sleep-wake cycle, we call it the circadian rhythm, is intimately connected with longevity. If you mess up sleep in an animal, within a few weeks it's got type 2 diabetes and it'll age more rapidly. Conversely, as you get older, your sleep-wake cycle will get messed up. You know, how many people have a grandparent who doesn't sleep well? That's in part because this NAD cycle that we have during our day naturally uh gets flatter and you don't feel as tired and you wake up in the middle of the night long way of saying get exercise skip a few meals one a day don't need a lot of snacks and get a good night's rest

well that um last thing i want to dive into that we spoke about right before everything we started recording which was was death just in general. And we connected in a weird way around the fact that we just actually think that death is something that actually drives us. And I'd love for you to share kind of your viewpoint on, you know, we talked about Carpe Diem and we also talked about just viewing our lives as if it's already happened and we already have died. So if you'd share with

that since this is a mindset mentor and i want to dive into the mindset of everybody if you'd share kind of your viewpoint on that because i thought it was really interesting right well anybody who listens to your part your podcast knows that you've been through some hell too uh yeah by the time you're my age at 50 you've seen a lot. And most of us have seen at least one of our parents pass away. A few years ago, it's probably going back five years now, I watched my mother pass away. She had lung cancer, had her lung removed, survived for 20 years, actually. Maybe resveratrol had something to do with it, but she really did do well. But then her remaining lung gave out.

So I flew to Australia to be by her bedside fortunately she didn't die during that flight I wrote the eulogy for her funeral I thought this was it arrived she sat up she was happy I said hey mom do you want to hear the eulogy that I wrote it's uh really I think you'd get a laugh and she laughed it was great. It was probably five minutes later I hadn't had a chance to read it to her. She coughed, her lungs became congested, there was fluid in them and I literally watched my mother wide-eyed suffocate to death in front of me. It only took about a minute. I only had time to start screaming at the nurses and the doctors to get help. They said, there's nothing we can do. And I whispered in her ear, mom, you're the best mom I could ever hope for.

Thanks for everything. And, you know, you see that as a kid, as a, you know, as a human being. First of all, my first thought was seeing her ride on the bed like a dying lizard. You know, that's something that no one tells you about. Sorry if I've told everybody here and you didn't want to hear it. Often death is not a pleasant thing. It can be horrific, and my mother suffered that way. And we've got to live life.

First of all, like every day could be our last, and there will be a last day. We will take our last breath. That's a fact. And then when you see something horrible like that, I live life like it's a great day if somebody hasn't died. When you see something like that, there is no such thing as a bad day. All right. So I still get home and, you know, how was your day? The kids will ask. And I'll say, it was a great day. Nobody right. So I, I, I still get home and you know, how was your day? The kids will ask and I'll say, it was a great day.

Nobody died. And that that's my bar. And that's why every day to me is a blessing. And I'm super optimistic about things. Carpe diem. I live that every day. The other thing I like to think about is I live like life. Like I died years ago. Um, I've had some close miss close calls. I drive my car a little too fast. I drive one of Elon's Tesla vehicles. And I regard myself as having died. And I live my life like, hey, every day is an extra day that I got. And that also helps. I love that. Well, thank you for sharing that. That was,

yeah, I've been in the room when someone passes away and there is, I've never been in the room when someone's birthed yet. I've heard that's quite amazing. But to be in the room when someone passes away is a life-changing experience and it really changes the way that you think of everything. I was in the room when my grandfather passed away, myself and my cousin. And it was just like, it was an interesting thing to go through, but I also felt so blessed to have been in the room when it happened because it changed even more my viewpoint on life and death as well. Yeah, it really does. And, you know, I don't want anyone to have to go through something like that if they don't have to. But if you do, it certainly gives you this different view about mortality, your own mortality, right?

You know what's coming. I don't live in fear. Rob, I'm sure you don't. But we live life with energy, with the thought that every day is a gift and there will be one day when they run out. And I think you're the same. We want to do the most to leave this world a better place. 100%. Love it. Well, Dr. David Sinclair, I know you have an amazing book, Lifespan, Why We Age and Why We Don't Need To, but where else can people find you? So there's

obviously your book people can consume, but where else can people find you if they want to learn a little bit more? Well, of course, on social media. I'm fairly active on Twitter. So I'm Well, of course, on social media, I'm fairly active on Twitter. So I'm there at David A. Sinclair. I'm on Instagram, occasionally post some videos and some tidbits on that. Little insights into my life in my lab there. More detail, I have a newsletter you can sign up for that is on a website, Lifespanbook.com, lifespanbook.com.

I also have an illustrated section to my book. So if you buy the audible version, you can download the PDF that comes with it. There's a glossary, illustrated glossary. There's a cast of characters that I actually drew, all of the characters that had to do their headshots by hand due to copyright. So there's all that. And there's a Q and A.

You can sign up for the newsletter there. I'm working on a second book, which actually talks more about hormesis and what we can do. But a lot of the book is about why we're aging. But half of the book, well, at least a third, is about what you can do now to slow that process and look better and feel better by the time you hit my age and beyond. Amazing. Dr. Davidson, Claire, I appreciate your time, man. It's been great.

And I think a lot of people are going to learn a lot from all of this because it's definitely a different perspective of going, you know what, we can look at this differently and we can actually try to slow or reverse this aging process down. And man, if you're putting out books, you're going to have to keep putting out books with all the research and stuff that's coming down the line, it seems like in the next five or 10 years possibly. Well, this is the reason I have to. So we made a discovery that hit the cover of Nature. Hopefully this isn't too egotistical,

but it's pretty fun. So we got the cover of Nature Magazine in December and this talks about... It's like the biggest thing that you could get and that's like the top of the top is Nature Magazine, right? For people who are doctors and scientists and work in your field. Well, I mean you can win a Nobel Prize, but that's pretty good. That was a highlight and I had a fantastic team that was able to show how to get rid of those scratches on the CD. And that was the work that we showed could reverse blindness in old age. And the first time safely reset the age of an animal's tissue in vivo, in the actual living animal without causing any issues.

So the exciting part is that, and the reason I'm writing a second and probably a third book, is that this field is going so quickly. Five years ago, I started saying, not just delaying aging, but we could reverse it. And a lot of my Harvard colleagues and elsewhere screwed up their face. He goes Sinclair again. He's going off in a dream world. You know, I'm happy to say that the science has caught up to that. And like you said, it's no longer crazy to think and caught up to that and uh like you said it's no longer crazy to think and even dream about what the future looks like it's amazing well thank

you so much for your time i appreciate it rob it's been great thanks for doing what you do