The Mindset Mentor - Give More & Get More w/ John Ruhlin

Episode Date: November 8, 2019

John Ruhlin is the author of the best selling book "Giftology" and is an expert at giving gifts. In this episode, he will change your mind about what gifts are for and when the best time to give them would be.Follow me on Instagram https://www.instagram.com/robdialjr/ Want to learn more about Mindset Mentor+? For nearly nine years, the Mindset Mentor Podcast has guided you through life's ups and downs. Now, you can dive even deeper with Mindset Mentor Plus. Turn every podcast lesson into real-world results with detailed worksheets, journaling prompts, and a supportive community of like-minded people. Enjoy monthly live Q&A sessions with me, and all this for less than a dollar a day. If you’re committed to real, lasting change, this is for you.Join here 👉 www.mindsetmentor.com My first book that I’ve ever written is now available. It’s called LEVEL UP and It’s a step-by-step guide to go from where you are now, to where you want to be as fast as possible.📚If you want to order yours today, you can just head over to robdial.com/bookHere are some useful links for you… If you want access to a multitude of life advice, self development tips, and exclusive content daily that will help you improve your life, then you can follow me around the web at these links here:Instagram TikTokFacebookYoutube

Welcome everybody. I'm so excited to have my friend John Ruhlin here, which is crazy because we've actually never met in person. Do you realize that? Yeah. We've known each other for years. We FaceTimed, we've talked on the phone, never met each other in person until today yeah now that you're gonna be an Austin native we're gonna see each other a lot more I'm home no pressure yeah how's that house you find a house in this we've looked we look just been all day looking yesterday we found a few I think we're gonna build to be honest yeah but but I mean there's so many good areas that's the challenge yeah it's great place yeah good people too a lot of amazing people as many more good people than there are good places But I mean, there's so many good areas. That's the challenge. Yeah, it's a great place. Yeah. Good people too.

A lot of amazing people. As many more good people than there are good places to live in Austin. Oh my gosh. That's, I mean, and they're all recruiters for the town. For the town, we're the best. Yeah, I mean, it's everybody, them and their spouse. It's all just a bunch of ex-cutco people actually selling you on why you should come here. Full court press.

I mean, they're not subtle at all. No, not at all. Well, for those of you guys that don't know Mr. Rulon, uh, he is, well, first off I knew about you 14 years ago. Now is the first time I heard your name because you were the number one sales rep in Cutco, which I'm assuming you're still by far. Yeah. If, uh, but, uh, but that's not your main thing. Your main thing is you are a gift master, I would call you. He's got a book called Giftology, which is amazing. If you have a business or if you want a business

or if you just happen to be a human that's ever been in a relationship or will ever be in a relationship, you should probably know about how to give gifts. So I'd recommend Giftology to you guys. But take me back. So I want to start from the beginning, from your Cutco years, learn about that, and then build up to this book. But, you know, tell me about starting Cutco. Tell me about your struggles. This is called the mindset mentor. So I want to know all about

how hard sales can be, the struggles of it to building to, you know, where you are now. Yeah. Well, I, I, I didn't start with Cutco as like a master plan. I did it like a lot of us, you know, entrepreneurship comes out of desperation or, or a need. And I want to pay for med school. So I went in, I literally remember my, I told my mom, I was going to sell knives. And she's like, John, I've owned this stuff for 40 years, but she's like, none of our friends can afford it. Like, you're going to like, you're not going to be able to pay for school. And I'm like, mom, that's not like the pep talk I'm going for like you know the person who owns the product you're like i think would believe in you yeah but um but so i gave it six weeks i'm like i'll commit to it and give it everything i have

and uh my life changed i mean the product the service the you know that's it's one of the best personal development programs on the planet that's not why i joined it i joined it to make money for sure and uh yeah so all the other stuff came as like icing on the cake but um i was dating a girl her her dad was like this rainmaker like attorney he had by the real estate that became the walmart and um i pitched him you know knives and he bought himself a set and his three daughters and he was just like this radically generous person and so he came back to me he's like john i want to help you out but i don't know what else i can buy yeah and uh like that's just who he was so i pitched him the idea all of his clients were men they own insurance companies construction companies i thought maybe he'll have mercy on me and order pocket knives yeah and uh he's like john i don't want to order pocket knives

or pairing knives i'm like you want to give a bunch of ceos nobody uses parent i don't even use my pairing knife and i have an entire block yeah i mean i'm like why do you want to give a bunch of CEOs? Nobody uses paring. I don't even use my paring knife and I have an entire block. Yeah. I mean, I'm like, why do you want to buy a CEO a kitchen tool? And he said, John, in 40 years in business, the reason I have more deal flow and opportunity is I found out one simple truth. And that's if you take care of the family in business and build a relationship there, everything else takes care of itself. So that was my first like kind of like lightning bolt moment that really it wasn't about the

knives. And so I thought everybody's just going to buy business gifts. And next 12 months went by and I didn't sell one business gift. And so it sucked. But fortunately, you know, Kaku trained me to go out. And so like I was just grinding, you know, selling it the old school way. But every time I would ask for a lead, I'd ask for a business owner. And I started to get in front of more business owners and started to learn that it really wasn't about the knife. It was about what the knife represented. It was

about building relationships. It really is about marketing. And, um, and so by the time I was senior in college, I was cut because number one sales rep out of 1.5 million, not because I was the best sales rep, but I started to learn from Paul, this mentor, um, how to communicate in business terms and use gifting really as marketing. So you were there for how long before you became the number one rep in the company? About three years. It's crazy. Cause I, that like the number is just in my head. I'm like, so you did 1.5 million in three years. Is that right? Uh, it was the number one out of 1.5 million so the first year i did um like 45 grand the next year i did um what did i do 200 grand it kind of just kept going up

exponentially so basically by people an idea you make 50 of what you sell when you get to the highest level in cut could you make 50 of what you sell so you were make you sold 200 grand which means you made 100 and you were what a junior sophomore yeah junior in college yeah yeah i mean obviously like any business you have expenses and right cutco's changed their comp plan a little bit on what you have to hit to hit that number and whatever else but still i mean to be able to make real adult like i remember like my professors are giving me crap because i'm skipping class to go speak at a conference or for a meeting and they're like you know like pissed because i missed a class i'm like i'm making you know it's kind of arrogant at the time but it's like i'm making more money than my professors for sure

um but and i was like i'm doing what i'm like i ended up putting med school on hold permanently and i started the company that now is basically just an outsourced gifting agency yeah but i you know like i was thinking that way, you know, at 21, I was like, this is like a, this could be a lifelong business. Like, it's crazy. Yeah. Yeah, that's crazy.

And especially because, like, it's how I started as well, where I started in the company, just wanted to make a bunch of money. And then I found out that I just love teaching people this stuff. Like, that's what I found about it. But then it was like, I also found myself through it. Like if I look at what my life could have been, had I not found Cutco, I don't know

what the hell I'd be doing. And so that's, people always ask me, they're like, should I have my child do Cutco? I'm like, yeah, but it's not easy. You got to let them know, like it's hard, but it's the best learning experience you'll ever have. And if you really do well, it's the best money that a kid can make. When I ended up deciding to drop out of school was because of my mom. So she, I had the opportunity to go and become a district manager and moved down to Fort Lauderdale. And so I was like,

oh my God, I'm not, not done with school. Like what's my mom going to say? And I was like, do you want to go meet the Cracker Barrel? So we meet the Cracker Barrel and I'm like, Hey, I'm thinking about, you know, becoming like dropping out of school and becoming a manager of this company. And she's like, okay. And she goes, well, I was like, I don't, I don't know how I feel though. Like, I don't know if I should drop out of school. And she goes, well, why do you go to school anyways? And I go just to make money. And she goes, you're already doing that now, aren't you? I was like, yeah. And she goes, so then drop out. I was like, all right. My mom's the exact opposite of every other parent. She's like,

it doesn't make any sense to go to school when you're already making more money than you would be had you not gone to school or if you actually finished school yeah so uh she gave you that that blessing yeah to be able to go do it i was like cool i'm out because i didn't want to be there anyways well i mean i i i went to school for four years um but i finished but just because i got to a point where i was like i've already put so much money in um but uh and it's you know like nothing wrong with college right but if people say like college education or one semester of selling knives yeah for sure one semester selling knives like the amount of you know personal development and growth and handling obstacles and objections about how to talk to people oh i used to be shy i'm not

shy i'm like it's just build your confidence i mean the way you get built you get your confidence built is by getting your face kicked in a few times by people saying no and no and no and then someone finally says yes and you're like oh wait i can do this yeah it's like energizing it's like adrenaline yeah so then tell me more about this then so so you you become the number one sales rep yeah gifting helped in there and then and then you decided that this is actually something you should continue doing yeah make me not just with Cutco, but actually have your own business doing it as well. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I realized early on that it really wasn't about the knife. So I never really talked about the knives. Even when I was going to sell to people, I'm like, the knife is just a delivery vehicle for the emotion. And so once I realized people could buy massive quantities of this, and I realized nobody's teaching this. There's companies that teach swag. Put your logo on things. We don't put logos on anything. There are people that do the crappy stuff in bulk from China.

Ours was U.S. made, super personalized, expensive. And so I'm like, nobody's teaching people how to use love, gratitude, generosity as this competitive advantage. It's just like this check the box at Christmas, which I'm teaching people not to give christmas gifts so like almost everything that's been taught in business school and branding school is the opposite so i'm like i can go teach people how to do this and then guess what happens when you teach them great stuff they come and buy more because they're they realize like you're not just selling crap like you actually have a methodology behind it and so starting the business was scary, though, because it was like, holy crap, is this really going to work?

Am I going to have more than the knives? All the doubts creep in and whatever else. But I think because I surrounded myself with other entrepreneurs and other business people, I joined Rotary at 21, which sounded crazy. But it's all these guys that are in their 70s, 80s. I brought the average age down to like 88 um but they were all like started their business after like you know world war ii or vietnam and whatever else like when they had two nickels to rub together and so i but i was like you know what like if it doesn't work out like i don't i'm not married i don't have kids like who cares and uh yeah i mean that was 16 years ago. So you started 16 years ago. So when did you get the whole, so you're, Paul, was that his name?

Yeah. Your mentor? So Paul gave you the inspiration, like you should start giving gifts. Were you, would you consider yourself a good gift giver before then? Or was it like, this is something that you've built up and you've learned, like to just love people and give them love and all that stuff? Yeah. Well, I think if I hadn't seen Paul, like I looked at him at 60 and i was like ironically enough he had three girls um yeah yeah

like me um he uh he was he would go out for lunch for like two or three hours he was never in a rush he was chill and yet like deal flow just came his way referrals came his way like opportunity but he was still like 30 40 years later still handwriting notes always had a stack of handwritten notes that he was sending it out really not with an agenda not as like a tactical thing like you just loved on people and stayed in touch i'm like i want to be him when i'm 60 so i'm like i'm 20 i got 40 years to do this yeah and this is what happens if you do this for 40 years so like it's sexy now to talk about the long game gary v talks about like the long game paul was just living the long game yeah and was reaping the benefits and so when you're poor and you see

somebody else who's rich not just in wealth tangibly but like with relationships people just love the guy and wanted to be around him he served on boards but um so i just was like i'm gonna model that success and started you know investing five hundred500 a month when I'm a college kid in gifts. Not because I was good at gift giving. My love language, ironically enough, if you've read the book The Five Love Languages, is I'm an introvert. And so words of affirmation are my thing. Somebody gives me words of affirmation that builds me up. But when I send a gift to somebody, they typically respond positively.

And I become the center of attention. If I go to a attention because I'm not if I go to a party I'm not the guy like telling jokes gregariously where everybody's surrounded around right I'm more like chill one-on-one conversations but when you send I could send out a dozen gifts and get a dozen people that were powerful responding to me and I became addicted to that and I started to realize like really wasn't about taking care of you the executive it was taking care of your spouse right it was gifting to the assistant. That was the person who lit up. Which is what Paul basically taught you when he wanted to get the parentage, right?

Yeah. I mean, he was all about taking care of the family or taking care of the assistant. He treated the receptionist at the same level of respect as he did the CEO. The janitor didn't matter. Like he was just kind to people. And not so i i saw that in him and i was like man i i can model that i can like he was my roadmap and uh and so i i started early on doing that but i started to get meetings i i'd send off a gift to like a 200 million dollar ceo and i'm in you know i'm in class and i have a message on my phone when i get back to like it's his assistant wanting for a meeting and I would go into those meetings you know with the one suit I had on I'm like I'm

sweating bullets I'm like I'm meeting with this like 65 year old dude who's CEO and but he'd give me the time of day but he would walk in and be like you could tell he's baffled like are you the John Ruhlen that sent me the knives that got this meeting this young dude yeah he thought I would be like 50

yeah like somebody like straight out of like wall street yeah and uh i'm like yes sir and he'd be like man i thought you'd be like 50 he's like are you here i'm really confused like you're here to sell me knives and i'm like actually no i'm here to help you and your thousand sales reps do exactly what i did to you to your top 10 000 relationships and so uh i remember turning like the first order to cutco for like a thousand knife sets and Cutco red flagged it thinking it was fraud yeah they thought I stole a credit card yeah um but it all it all really stemmed back to that original mentor of I saw Paul do it and he was somebody that would be like um he'd give me a knife that he bought and he'd be like whether

that person buys or not give him a piece and tell him I believe in enough that I want him to have a gift so he would transfer his capital his social, and belief and trust and send me off to these business owners. And so much of what I teach now to this day, people are like, oh man, this is revolutionary. You guys realize if you go into the Old Testament, kings would give other kings gifts. Proverbs 18, 16, a gift ushers you before kings. Like that's, that's a 5,000 year old piece of literature. Right. And, and so a lot of what I teach now is just repackaged and repurposed in a spotlights put on it. And, uh, and so it's not revolutionary. It's just that, you know, in our Western society, we've lost, like we, everybody says they're all about relationships, but really we're very transactional. And, uh, so, yeah, I had, um, I had a guy I talked to yesterday, yesterday,

two days ago, and, um, he's a, uh, uh, a plant medicine facilitator. And he was just basically talking to me about how much he loves people. And it was the most genuine thing I think I've ever heard. And he said, uh, he said, yeah, man, I just love people so much. I love them because I don't see them as separate me. I just see them as a part of me like everybody should. And he goes, for instance, if I pull up to a stoplight, I'll give a homeless person some money. And then when they look me in the eye, I say, hey, man, do you want a hug?

And if they say yes, I'll put my car in park. I'll get out of it in the middle of the road and I'll give them a hug. And after I give them a hug, I'll go, Hey, do you want to go get some lunch? And usually they hop in my car and I go get lunch with them. And I'm like, like I give them money, but that's like a whole other level of loving on people. Right. Of commitment. And like, you know, and I was, so I had this conversation this morning with my friends where I was like, yeah, like most people would judge somebody or they'd be like, oh, but he's going to smell in my car. He's going to smell my shirt if he hugs me, all that stuff. I was like, that's a whole other level of love where you're like, I'm going to try to change this person's life. Because they probably need a hug more than anybody else. Right? And so he goes, I'm going to give this person a hug. And I don't care if my shirt smells because I know it made a difference in that person's life. Yeah.

So I was like, man, that's just, I need to aspire to that level. You know? That's deep love. That's like what I tell people all the time. Like people say, they're all about loving people. And I'm like, show me your pocketbook and show me your calendar. And I'll show you, I'll tell you what your priorities are, whether that's with money or time or relationships.

And so, man, that's convicting me because i mean i'm kind of the same thing like i'll i'll give time on my schedule or i'll give money to a cause um but am i am i willing to take into face to face face to face uncomfortable smelly car wow wow that's awesome which we're gonna write your next book right now real love man that's uh that's that's inspired i mean my my hope is that um similar to the five love languages is like people are like john what's you know like what's with giftology really about i'm like this gifting is just love it's one of the five love languages and we all at a core level like as humans we all crave whether you're the homeless guy or whether you know you're in africa like we're all just human beings we all crave acknowledgement we all crave appreciation

and gifting is just a tangible form of love and and so we've talked about i'm having dinner dinner coming up with gary chapman again who wrote the five love languages and he sold like 22 million books all over the world and i think it resonates 30 years later because at a core level, like love is one of those things, like people talk a lot about it, but being able to be good at it with all of your relationships, including your spouse is, uh, it's easier to talk about than to actually do it for sure. Yeah. Cause we all have some sort of wounds that we're trying not to be. We're not trying to show people our scars or let our walls down and so it's like we can love at a distance but to really let people in is where it starts to get hard for most you know yeah yeah we

all have those wounds and we're afraid of being rejected yeah for sure well so tell me tell me my favorite story is is of you getting your mentor cameron right yeah okay so this is one because i was talking to the guys this morning we were talking about the hugging and then I was, he's they're like, who are you going to go interview? And I was like, John ruling. And I started telling them the story and they're like, that's just, I've never heard anything like that. And so I want people to hit, to hear the story of, of, of you and Cameron. Yeah. So I, I, um, I went to an event, I spent a bunch of money to become a EO member. I barely qualified. And I went out to Las Vegas and heard Cameron speak. And so a lot of times you hear a speaker like, man, if I could get that guy to be a mentor, an advisor.

And sometimes it's a guy like Joe Rogan or Cameron Harrell or whoever. And you're like, man, I could never afford their coaching. Cameron's coaching at the time I think was like $20,000 a month. And I'm like, I can't do that. So I'm like, how can I get him to be in my corner? How can I build a relationship and show him I'm different? And I found out he was coming to Cleveland to speak to our chapter. And when I went up to talk to him, I found out that he loved, I was like poking around.

I'm like, hey, do you want to go to dinner and a ball game? Thinking like, we'll become brothers at this dinner and a ball game. And his response was the most underwhelming. He's like, I don't have anything else going on. I guess I'll go. Somebody punched me in the face. But as I was thinking that, I was like, oh my gosh, Cameron. And a lot of us, how many dinners and ball games are we going to go on in the course of a year?

Most people's clients and employees get access to that kind of stuff all the time. It's not going to wow somebody. And so I'm like, what else are you going to do, Cameron? He said, well, I'm going to go shop. And I'm from Canada. And you guys have some stores we don't have very many of and i'm thinking man this is my angle i'm like which what what store and he said uh brooks brothers and i'm on the spot i'm like i'm a jose bank guy uh what's your shirt size i'm gonna send you a shirt and you could tell like you got this kind of like bewildered like deer in headlights look this was after he gave a talk

at a yeah at this big event so i waited in line for an hour to get to him and uh could tell like he's like thinking like man does this dude have like a man crush on me like this is a weird you know for a man to ask another man his shirt size yeah but he was nice he's from canada kind of like canada like you know soft charm and uh and so i end up leaving there uh three months went by and And Cameron's texting me like, hey, my flight's delayed. I think I'm going to get in late. Do you just want to cancel? And I'm like, son of a gun. He's trying to cancel on this dinner and a ball game.

So I had a conversation with my business partner. And he thought it was the dumbest idea in the world. But he gave me the go to do it. So I drive, before he changes his mind, up to Brooks Brothers, put down the Amex. And I said, I want one of everything in your new fall collection all your jackets suits pants belts shoes everything and uh when they went to ring it up i was hoping my credit card went through because it was over seven grand of clothes then we went to the ritz outfitted the store or outfitted his room to look like a brooks brother store and uh and cameron came in you could tell like he didn't want to go to the dinner and

the ball game i'm like downstairs like downstairs drinking a triple on the rock. Because I'm thinking, my partner, actually at the time, he's like, dude, he's going to think you're a stalker. This is the worst idea ever. This morning, they're like, that's such a good idea. Or it's also a really bad idea. It could go either way. And most ideas in business, if there's not risk, then probably it's not a good idea. It's not going to shock and awe anybody if it's vanilla and mediocre and safe um because not every every idea works but but in this case

cameron i said hey cameron go take a shower come down whenever ready and he came down about 25 minutes later and he was floating man he was glowing he's like man i've texted pictures to authors i've texted pictures to my spouse he said uh whatever you want to talk about for as long as you want to talk about i'm all ears And so like the reason that like we literally are booking, you know, at the time I wasn't speaking at all. Um, but he's done things for me that, you know, $10 million in advertising couldn't do. Like my first $15,000 speaking engagement came from him. I mean, we're now booking at like 45 to 60 grand for overseas. from him. I mean, we're now booking at like 45 to 60 grand for overseas. And it came from Cameron believing in me. And when, before I had a book, Cameron would get double booked and he'd be like,

you got to book John ruling. People are like, John, who you're like, just trust me. And so he would just, he like, he put his endorsement on me and open doors and gave me insights and ideas. And every client that he's ever had, you know, he started sending them knives and different things. And so the relationship has paid off, you know, a thousandfold. For sure. So what do you think the number one thing that you learned from him would be? We were talking about your mentor, Paul. So if we talk about your mentor, Cameron, what have you learned most from that? How long has the relationship been now since you did that?

12 years. Wow. Okay. Yeah. So what have you learned? Give us a couple. You don't have to give us just one if it's hard to narrow it down. Wow. Okay. Yeah. So what have you, what have you learned? You can give us a couple, you don't have to give us just one if that, if it's hard to narrow it down. Yeah. I mean, Cameron's somebody, um, he's awesome at relationships and he's, he's big on creating systems. I think for a long time, like I tried to do everything as a one-off and Cameron,

like, you know, he's helped three different companies scale over a hundred million dollars. And, uh, and he was, he's, he taught me how to hire people that were better than me. I think early on, like I was a little bit intimidated to hire better people. And he's like, dude, I, when he already got junk, we hired people that were way better in all these other positions. I was a COO, but they were way better at that and way better at that. Whether it was PR, like, you know, I remember him talking about getting like 5,000 articles written about him. He's like, I didn't do that. I hired somebody that was really good to do it and treated it like a sales job, which was unique and different. And so he, you know, to this day, like I've surrounded myself, even, you know, part of the reason I sold half the business to Rod, I gave up 50%. But I was like, he's way better at things. I'm never going to be good at.

Really? And, uh, and I make way more money off of owning half the company and I sleep better at night and everything. And so, um, yeah, he really leaned into me hard on systems and outsourcing and, uh, and creating processes that I, I, you know, forever grateful for some of the insights. And it wasn't like radical stuff, but for me it was, it was like asking that one question or that one idea. And it was like, holy crap, you're right. That was the hardest thing. That was the, I find with most entrepreneurs, that's what it is. But the hardest thing in Cutco for me was just giving up a piece of me. I felt like with my business, but then I also, you know, became the number one office, burnt myself out in the process. And then I quit.

So it's easier to avoid burnout by not doing that. But the same thing that you said, as I've said to so many people, where it's just like hire people that are better than you at the things that you don't wanna do and just do the only thing that you wanna do. Whatever you're best at, that's all you should do. For this business now,

I've just hired other people to do things that are better than me. And all I want to do is create content. I don't want to do anything else. You know, like I was talking with someone last night about putting an event on. And I was like, I don't want to even think about lanyards. I don't want to think about any of that.

Like, can I just pay you? Just do everything for me. From A to Z, super nuts. I want to show up. That's it. I'm going to speak. I'll bless the event. I'll have dinner with the VIPs or whatever, but I'm not.

There's no way that I'm going to do anything with logistics. I'm going to speak. I'll bless the event. I'll have dinner with the VIPs or whatever, but I'm not. There's no way that I'm going to do anything with logistics. I'm not a logistics person. No. So it's like, but I used to think that I had to be, right? Like Gary Vee talks about this where it's like, don't even worry about your weaknesses. Just double down on your strengths and then just hire somebody else to do the stuff that you're weak at. Yep.

You know? 10,000%. I mean, and I get more and more pushed that way. I have a mentor who unfortunately had started getting seizures and he's like, now he's only able to work two hours a day because of his strength. And he still, you know, cranked out three books last year. And I'm like, dude, how did you crank? He's like, cause I only operate in my sweet spot. I can only work two hours a day. And so I spend those two hours writing and I'll have, you know, two conversations.

Wow. And he's like, I'm having some of the best, you know, most productive years, even though like I'm only able to work two hours a day. His name is Tom Searcy. And I'm like, Tom, you're awesome, man. Like I, it's like, and it's leaning me on like, cause I want to spend more time with my girls and I'll fill, you know, six hours, eight hours, 10 hours, 12 hours, whatever the amount of time is, I'm going to fill it with stuff that I think is really productive. But at a core

level, like, could I outsource a lot of that? Like, and I keep whittling that down. I mean, this year I took off, uh, I got a burner phone and went away for 30 days for the first time ever. And, um, I wouldn't have done it had it not been for a camera and a guy like a Tom who's like, really, do you need to be putting in, you know, that many hours? Like probably not. Yeah, for sure. That was, I would say the two books that really changed my perspective on all that, obviously the four hour work week of how to outsource

and then how to get more done in less time. And the second one was a one thing. Chris and I were talking about this yesterday, Chris behind the camera, where I was like, the one thing really helps me because he actually, and this is from a billionaire, says to schedule your free time. And my opinion before I read that book was if I'm not where I want to be, I don't deserve free time. And a couple of things happen when you try to stop at a certain point, is it's like the day before you go on vacation, like you're super productive. You get things done because you know, you've only got this amount of time. So for me,

it's like, you can, like you said, you can fill up and you can be busy for eight, 10, 12 hours. If you want to, like, you can always find something to do when you own a business, but you probably really only need to spend a couple to three to four hours actually working on your business and then let everybody else that's good at what they do, do what they need to do. You know, and that's where most people mess up delegation is the hardest thing because most people their self-worth is attached to their business and if they feel like they give a piece of it away that the piece or self-worth going away yeah no I get excited now when somebody like says

something closes a deal and they're like we're closing more deals than you are I'm like that's awesome good that's exactly what that's what that's what you know that's what should be happening. But that wouldn't have been the case 10 years ago. I was tied to the sales numbers. Like I had to be the, the linchpin. And that's not that way. The best salespeople are usually the greediest and you got to kind of, as you grow up, release that, that whole thing. Yeah, no question. So people are out there, they want to know about gifting. So take us through, you know, how do you give what's the best way to do it? Because there's a lot of guys that are terrible gifts at giving, you know, the most practical gifts to their girlfriends, or they're terrible

at giving gifts, you know, they don't give any gifts or thank you notes or any of those types of things to big amounts of business that come in or the realtors that are giving a $50 bottle of wine, and they'll never remember your name in the future. So, you know, take us through the process of giving gifts. Is there a way for someone to easily to easily get better at it? Yeah. Well, I think that, um, it's interesting. People will do things in their business life that they'd never do in a personal life. And so like I tell people, like, think about going to a wedding. If you go to a wedding and it's your really close friend, like you're going to go all in on the gift. Um, you're going to, you're not going to put your logo on it. You're not going to be a compliment to Rob Dial. You're going to go all out on the handwritten note, all the things that would make it meaningful

and thoughtful. Yet in business, we order crap from China, we slam our logo on it, make it all about us. And at a core level, a gift is really just a representation of the value you place on the relationship. And so if you view it that way and you view it as man this is like tangible marketing like a lot of marketing now is digital so it's a facebook ad it's a you know it's a tweet it's a whatever and none of those things are wrong but we're all visual human beings like in 2019 like there's a reason that like when we go to a restaurant we like point to the picture and say i want that right it's like because we're like that just it hits our brain differently and so if you could understand like if you give the right gift, that they could literally think about you two to three times a day for the next 10 years, that's powerful marketing.

But the only way that that works is it has to be sticky. It has to be something that they value. And so anymore, we don't even call them gifts. I'm like, if you're giving to your girlfriend or to a spouse or to your best or to, um, to your best client, like think about it as like, if their house was on fire, would they grab your item? And oftentimes it's not the most expensive thing that they're going to grab. It's the most meaningful. So it might be pictures. It might be a flag that their dad served in the army. And so a lot of the gifting that we do isn't the most expensive, but it's, um, it ties into the humanity of the person. And so one of my

friends and even really mentors, Joey Coleman, do you know Joey? So he wrote a book called never lose a customer before he was speaking all over the world and working with Zappos and crazy places. He was an attorney and, uh, he had a patriarch and the dad passed away. There's a couple, three kids and they fought over one item and they blew through five million dollars of inheritance for one item for one item i feel like joey i know i said like was it artwork but it wasn't he's like john the reason i like your stupid knives is uh yeah yeah the reason i like your stupid knives is that um it ties to the stories like i saw they fought over this one item and it was a 20 item and i was like i was like, he's like, if I hadn't been there live and saw it, I

wouldn't believe it myself. He's like, they fought over the dad every day for 40 years after dinner, played a harmonica. And when he passed away, he didn't say who that harmonica was going to go to. And so when the kids who are in their forties and fifties now thought of their dad, they thought the representation, what they thought of was that harmonica and they all fought over it. And they literally like fought tooth and nail bloody, like they blew through the inheritance. $5 million to get the harmonica.

To get the harmonica. He's like, your knives and the gifts you talk about get woven into every dinner, every bar mitzvah, every first communion, every Christmas. And so, and I've seen, I've seen where people like get into a divorce and they're, you know, it's $5 million and they fight over the knives. I've seen where people get into a divorce, and it's a $5 million house, and they fight over the knives. I've seen that too, yeah. And they'll come up, and they're so angry. And it's not about that they can't go replace the knives. It's what the knives represented.

Yeah. And so it's not about, like, when you give a gift to your spouse or to your employee or your client, most of the time they can go buy that same thing for themselves. But it's what does it represent? And so people are like, John, I want to send out 100 gifts to my best clients or my employees. And I'm like, are you going to put a handwritten note with it? And they're like, no, we're just going to type something up. And I'm like, I won't let you hire my agency to do all your gifting unless a handwritten note's going with it.

And they're like, but that's like a lot of work. And I'm like, well, we'll write the notes for you, but it still has to have a handwritten note. And they're like, why? but that's like a lot of work. And I'm like, well, we'll write the notes for you, but it still has to have a handwritten note. And they're like, why? And I'm like, the handwritten note is what provides meaning and context and value and why you're giving it to them and all that stuff. And that's what makes it from one human to another. Like a lot of times people say, I want to send it from the team. And I'm like, they don't do business with a team. They do business with another human. And so oftentimes people are like, I don't have money. I don't

have seven grand for clothes. And I'm like, well, you spent seven grand on a bar tab or you spent seven grand on a trade show. But let's just say for a second, you can't afford the 7,000. It's not even about the money. It was about what it represented to Cameron because he didn't even keep the $7,000 in clothes. It was the note that came with it. And he ended up paying for all the clothes.

He came back to me. He's like, John, the thoughtfulness of what you did was what the gift was. I can't let you pay for the clothes. So that experience cost me $0. So sometimes when people come to us, I'm like, hey, take your top 10 relationships and write the nicest, take an hour for each of them and write a note to them about what their life has meant to you. And go read them that note. Both of you guys will probably cry and they will never, they will value that note more than they value a you know five thousand dollar watch they will they will that note will follow them around for

the rest of their life because it it's what it represents and so that's where people like they think i don't have the money i don't have the time and whatever and it's like yes you do it's all priorities and if you really value the relationship like go all in the same way you would your you know fantasy football league into your most important relationships and they'll thrive. Yeah. Yeah, man, that's crazy. I never thought about the fact I, cause there are definite times when I went and saw soul cut go to a guy and he'd be like, I got to get the knives because my wife took them in the divorce. Like, and they want those things back cause they know how good they are. And they had sort of sentimental value to it sentimentality is crazy it has nothing to do with

value of anything and what's what's interesting too about even like you're saying like just a handwritten note like it's hard to throw away i have all of i i throw i throw a lot of stuff away me too like when we move everything yeah but handwritten notes you can't really throw away it's like my mom i remember my mom when i was younger she always told me always write thank you notes my that's like been ingrained in me. Second thing is she told me is when you get business cards, make sure your face is on it because it's hard to throw a business card away with a face on it. And then as I've gotten older, I've realized that both of those are really true. It's really hard for me to throw away someone's

face for some reason. And I don't ever throw away thank you cards. So I have like literally just a box of all of the thank you cards i do too well it's i mean the face is because it's like it people associate with throwing away pictures and throwing away pictures seems like thinking about the things that you value yeah photographs of your relationships are one of those things that are you know if a house burns down you can replace the couch you can replace all that stuff but you know fortunately in digital now maybe it got saved somewhere but um but anymore people don't even print out the pictures anymore. But like a photograph on the wall or in your office, like you go in most people's offices, what do they have?

They have photographs of the people they value the most. And yeah, the handwritten notes are powerful, man. I mean, to the point where we've invested $9 a piece in metal letterhead. And so now when I'm sending most of my handwritten notes, it's on a $9 piece of steel. It's even harder to throw away. It's even harder to throw away. I have people that frame it, that hang it up on a wall. People are like, nine bucks is waste. Why would you do that? And I'm like, you'll spend $18 on a flashlight that they'll never use, that they'll pitch, that it falls apart. I'll spend $9 on letterhead. And people talk about it for five

years. I mean, it's crazy that's nuts yeah it's funny even before your book came out i remember one of the one of the biggest things that i had ever learned in being a sales rep at this time this was you know 2013 and i was uh only selling directly as ceos which was really hard to get into a ceo period and uh there was one guy that i knew was like killer. And I called him and called him and called him. Couldn't get ahold, couldn't get ahold, like, you know, put me off all of this stuff. And, and I went up to my manager and I was like, Hey, let's do something really different. Like, let's just drop something off at his place.

And he's like, all right, what should we do? And, and I was like, let's go stalk him on Facebook and LinkedIn. So literally we stalked him on Facebook, stalked him on LinkedIn, like, what does he like? And then finding out that he was an investor of two liquor companies in Austin. And he was an investor of a, he owned a medical company here, but he was an investor also in a, another company that was like, just like workout equipment. Right? So I was like, how can we do this? So we went and we bought a bottle of each of the liquors and we bought one of those little workout bag things that he had. We had one of the girls in the office, help us like decorate it, make it pretty. Cause otherwise it looks terrible. Oh, and golf balls were in it too, because we knew that he liked golf from his pictures on Facebook. So it costs probably, uh, like 150 bucks, whatever it was, huge box. We drive like 45 minutes away to go see this guy. We walk in and I don't even care about seeing him. I just like want to leave it.

So we walk in, huge box, huge box, right? And the lady that's at the front is like, oh, who are you here to see? And I said his name. And she goes, okay, give me one second. She goes and gets him, pulls him out of a meeting. Like I can't get this guy literally on the phone. He pulls him out of a meeting and he goes, what's this? And I was like, Hey, this is just something I have to drop off for you. I was like, there's a note in there. If you want to read it, it'll tell you more. He's like, all right, cool. So then I walk out. I'm just trying to sell the guy, right? Now he's curious, trying to open the loop. Right. So, so now he's curious. By the time I had gotten back, there was already a voicemail on my, um, on my phone. By the time I got back

to my office, I ended up closing the guy. It ended up being like $17,000 that I made. But even if I hadn't, I'm sure something would have come from it. And at least it would have been whether he can't use my business, somebody else he knows might have been able to use the business, all that stuff. But the law of reciprocity is really strong. And the good thing about what you're saying is it's not coming from a point of like, I'm doing this because I want something from somebody. It's just, you're just trying to, you know, give it out because you know that whether it's from them or somebody else, you're eventually going to get a return, right? Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a pay it forward mentality. I mean, we know like everybody's in business to make money and

make profit and make sales. Um, and we all know that relationships are valuable. You're basically just saying like, I value you as a human. And yeah, I mean, Robert Cialdini's done all kinds of studies, the book Influence and Persuasion. Like, we know if we do things for people, like whether you believe in a God or not, it's in our DNA to want to reciprocate.

But people are like, are you just trying to bribe people? And I'm like, no, like you're trying to acknowledge somebody. You know, like if they're a prospect, you're pre-buying their attention. Like, you know,aynerchuk talks about being he's an attention broker right with all the digital stuff you send somebody that you know love bomb or we're shocking all package or whatever you want to put the terminology to it um you're basically saying you know what everybody

says they're different that they're first class best in class you're putting into a tangible form to say no i really am different and i really have something valuable to say, which in our day and age of all talk and all digital, the tangible shows up and you're like, wow, maybe these guys are worth 10 minutes. And then you can't have a sucky product at that point or a sucky service. You still have to have something good, but you can shake people loose and be able to show that you really are different. Yeah, that's amazing. show that you really are different. Yeah, that's amazing. It's strong because I think that so I think that the one thing that's, that's getting interesting in this day and age is that so so many people are getting so disconnected, that it what you're talking about would have really worked 15 years ago, like it would work, of course, but to do it now, where everyone's so disconnected,

a salesperson can send 100 emails in a day, They don't even have to send the email. They probably have a system that sends the entire email out for them, but to literally go there, maybe give it to them by hand and be able to get some sort of, you know, meeting with a prospect to be really good. But then also at the same time, it's just like the, the long-term thinking about somebody, um, I think is's important i had a friend whose dad was super successful and he uh he sold like he was always home and i know what the hell he did like he was always at the house right every time i go over there he's always at the house and he was obsessed with like home sound systems like not like bows like bows he's was saying it's like crap right like i'm talking like a couple hundred thousand dollars like macintosh like where you get like the you know the crazy yeah amplifier that's 50 grand for sure like they

have sound rooms just to listen to it and that's what he sold that wholesale on the side that was just like fun for him but his real job that he never had to show up to was uh he sold parts for semis but he'd been doing for like 25 years so he had these relationships built and gifts that i remember him saying he he like the guys if somebody would try to come in and undercut him, didn't matter because they've been with, they've had this relationship 20, 25 years, they've been working together. And I have a, I have a, um, a client that, that he was asking me like how to go into a trade show and be different and do all these things. And I was like, man, you got it. Like, what is everybody else doing? Oh, they're doing this. This is okay. What's the complete opposite of that? Oh, they're giving

away, you know, they're spending a thousand bucks on, you know, whatever it is, a thousand lights or lanyards or whatever. I don't even know what the hell they give away. All the stupid swag stress balls, right? And so I go drawing for an iPad. Wow. Nobody has an iPad right now. Yeah. And so I was like, I was like, I got an idea an idea why don't you have a drawing you just do a drawing for a thousand bucks but then you tell them that there's going to be a second place third place drawing as well where they can win maglites because they work with fishermen right yeah these guys are the they do in um sales for for um like the boats that you see on like uh deadliest. Like they insure those things, right? Yeah.

And I was like, and then what I want you to do is the person who wins the thousand bucks wins a thousand bucks. But every, the original gift last year was they went on Maglite. That's what their gift was. Like one Maglite, right? It's like what, 20, 40 bucks, something like that for Maglite.

Yeah. And then what I want you to do is every other person that comes up, send them a Maglite. And then you follow up with them on the, and you say, Hey, just so you know, you won the mag light. It gives you a reason to get on the phone with them and they're getting something from it. So then they feel better. And whether or not they use you this month, guess what? Next year, you still got, they still got to get insurance.

They're still going to be on boats. They're still going to see that mag light every single time that they need it in the middle of the night when things are really hitting the fan. And he's like, this is the greatest idea ever. I was was like so you're spending the same amount of money maybe a little bit more but you're actually building a relationship with somebody versus just giving a bunch of crap that they're never going to use yeah it's amazing how many people like they'll slam their logo on a polo shirt and give it out to everybody and they're like i was gonna wear that yeah i gotta wear your branding i'm like yeah branding like if it ends up at goodwill or in the you know in the bottom of the dog kennel like that's not real good branding right um but yeah doing something quality i mean people all

the time will say you know they'll spend so much money on a trade show or so much money on you know ads and i'm like what if you just took 20 of that budget instead of trying to take care of 10 000 people you just took care of 100 right and went all in on this 100 and like your buddy that was you know at home every day for 25 years the relationship like people don't realize like even the guy that you dropped the alcohol off to even if you didn't close the deal like maybe five years from now you're investing in a company and he's on that board of directors or like it's amazing how many people that i planted seeds with yeah you know 10 years ago i wasn't speaking 10 years ago yeah but I was loving on people back then. And now all of a sudden those people, like they like me, they trust me. I'm top of mind.

And they find out I'm speaking and now they're advocating for me to go speak, or they're sending my book out to 500 people or like, you know, it's easy to say we're playing the long game, but 50 years, like we're probably going to be doing this for 50 years. And who knows what you're going to be doing or I'm doing. But if you have those trusted relationships and you've shown your true colors with people and really gifting is just one way, like you can't be a douchebag and then like give great gifts. It needs to be in alignment with who you are, but, um, but people being top of mind and being trusted and having that relationship where you can't be undercut because of a price. Like that's, I mean, people don't value that, but they should.

Yeah. I don't think I said it. There was a handwritten note in there too. And it said, did I, I didn't, I don't think I said this. What it said in it was you've already made three good investments. Let me be your fourth. So that's what it was. And then there was nothing else. There was nothing else. Yeah. I played the ego, but there's, he's like, well, what's the fourth? So he had to call me because he invests in those three companies. That's what I forgot. There was that part of it as well. And the catchiness of the note matters.

Sometimes people are like, they write the same form note on thank you notes. And I'm like, come on, man. Don't make it be like a robot. Like put some thought into it. Make it about them. Don't make it about you. For sure. And you don't have to put your business card in there.

Like that's catchy. I like that. Yeah. So, okay. So let's say someone out there is listening they have a small business right maybe doing a few hundred thousand to a million a year so they don't have a ton of profit they don't have a ton of money but they probably have some pretty good customers what would you recommend that they go and do if they take something from this this episode is that they get their top 10 and then they love on them is it what would you would you recommend? Yeah. I mean, I think that I tried to turn everything into a math equation because a lot of guys that we work with and gals, like they're type a they're linear and they're

like, Hey, what's the, what's the, what's the roadmap. Right. And, uh, and so, you know, try to make it like, Hey, we made a hundred grand last year. Our, our math equation is reinvesting anywhere from five to 15% back into your top relationships. That could be your top vendors, your top referral sources, your top clients, your mentors, your investors, whoever those people are. And if you can't afford to do 50 gifts really well, then do 10. And if you can't afford to do 10 really well, do two. But whatever you're going to do, like go all in on a handful of people versus going mediocre on the masses and have a plan for it. Like that's like people have, you know, operation plans and finance plans finance plans you know our thing is like giftology is just another form of marketing so lay out like hey we're gonna go all in on these 10 people and

twice a year we're gonna do this and this is how we're gonna stand out and we're gonna do the research to find out what their spouse's name is and their inner circle and their assistant but the big thing is is that like treat it just as strategically as you do any other part of your business and make it a true investment. Most people will look at like their year and they're like, hey, we made money this year. I guess we should say thank you. What's left over in the budget? And they're like, oh, we got $1,400 and 13 cents. Like they divide their entire client list by that $14. And they're like, I guess we're giving calendars to everybody this year. Oh, God, yeah.

Or they do something. We're sending peanut brittle. We're sending everybody a $5 Starbucks gift card. Meanwhile, even a small company might have clients that are worth to them five, six, seven figures to them. And they're sending them basically like, they're basically saying, hey, you didn't matter enough to pick something out and be thoughtful. And so we just decided to send you something generic. Here's some peanut brittle. Here's some peanut brittle. And people wonder why they're not getting referrals and not getting access to people. It's like your gifting needs to be as congruent as every other part of your

business. If you drive a BMW and you have a nice office, you'd never take a client to the Ritz Carlton to stay and then take them to McDonald's for dinner. Right. Like that's not congruent in sending somebody peanut brittle or a cheap bottle of wine or some generic gift card. Like all of those things to me communicate that the person doesn't matter. And that's the last thing you want to communicate. So I was going to say, it's, it's almost like if you give a really good customer a crappy gift, it's better almost not giving them a gift because a crappy gift almost shows them like you're not worth it to me, right?

Because if somebody is, like, I remember my uncle, I've loved watches my entire life. And my uncle one day walked in, he was a super, he still is, super successful business guy. He was wearing a Rolex. And I was like, oh my God, I love your Rolex. You know, it's before I ever bought a Rolex. And I was like, this is the coolest thing.

Like I, and so I was obsessed with it. And, uh, I was like, where'd it come from? He's like, Oh yeah. One of my, um, one of my, uh, uh, vendors gave it to me. And I was like, that's pretty damn good gift. And he goes, he goes, yeah, he told me, you know, if I, if, if things go really well this year, he'll send it to me. And I forgot about it. And we didn't hit it that year, but hit it the next year. Whatever the number was, like, you do this. And he sent it to him. And he's like, I'll never use anybody else.

You know? And it's like $7,000 watch. That's a big investment. But he probably made millions of dollars off my uncle. Yeah. And that's what people don't realize. Like, yeah, they'll spend stupid money on all these other things and it's like what would it be worth to you to have loyalty like true loyalty for years if not decades for sure and most people don't they

don't really know the lifetime value of their relationships they look at it as very transactional as a problem yeah they're like hey how much do we make this day or this month and it's like if you have that relationship and most people people, they're going to have, even if they're an entrepreneur, they're going to have multiple companies through their life. For sure. And so like, what's the next business? What's the next investor?

What's the next? And they only play that short game and they miss out on that loyalty that like, if you could buy somebody loyalty for seven grand, like that's actually a pretty cheap investment. Yeah. And even small to midsize companies is pretty crazy. Especially if they're, you know,

bringing in millions of dollars. They're bringing millions of dollars for you. Why would you not do something like that? Because I guarantee there's somebody listening to this that probably has, you know, a customer's bringing in the majority because that's usually the way that it works.

It's like you have a couple of customers that are bringing in a lot and then you have a few other ones. And it's just like you have somebody that you could invest a lot of money into and it might completely take away all of the the profit that you made from in this past year but you basically have someone's going to continue to buy from you from years and at the same time you're actually showing them how much you actually appreciate them yeah well and i mean we've we've had some clients that we've worked with where they sent gifts you know for five or six years and they kept the business.

And then in one day, this was from the Cleveland Indians, they got 38 referrals in one day. Oh, my God. 38 one-on-one referrals. Wow. And so they're like, yeah, I guess we're glad we kept gifting after six years. But most people, they do a gift one time and they don't get the referral, they don't get the deal. And they're like, oh, I guess it doesn't work. And I'm like, that's not how marriage works. You don't give a gift and then and they don't get the referral they don't get the deal and they're like oh i guess it doesn't work and i'm like that's not how like that's not how marriage works

you don't give a gift and then like never have to do anything again like like that's not how relationships work it's not how relationships work in business and so yeah i mean i i see people all the time they're like yeah how much do you make off that account i'm like they're like we make about 100 grand a year profit and i'm like you, reinvest five to 15%. They're like, but that's five to 15 grand. I'm like, you put in $5,000 and you get to keep $95,000 and that keeps coming year after year, like as an annuity. And I'm like, that seems like a pretty good, like ATM machine, put in a dollar, get $20 back. But most people don't view it that way. They, once they have somebody, it's like, once you get married, it's like, I told you, I loved you on the altar. It's

like, they stopped trying once somebody becomes a like once you get married it's like I told you I loved you on the altar it's like they stopped trying yeah once somebody becomes a client and then they wonder why like three years down the road that client and jump ship or they don't get the referrals and they're pissed and at that point they would spend they would have sent ten Rolexes but they've already lost the business and that's the that's the catch-22 is like people will spend all kinds of money to try not to lose something after it's already happened. At that point, it's too late.

As I say, it's more expensive to acquire a new customer than to keep an old customer. A million percent. That's what Joey talks about, never lose a customer. What you'd actually have to invest in a relationship to never lose them is a small amount. Now, it's a lot relative to what they're used to doing. If you're used to sending peanut brittle for $20 and then you show somebody a $7,000 Rolex, their eyes roll back in their head. But if it's really a relationship that's providing five, six, seven figures in profit a year, it's a rounding error. But it's stuff to write that check for that Rolex or even a $300 gift for most people, it freaks them out because they're just not used to doing that. They're used to buying dinner for somebody

like that seems okay to spend 300 bucks on dinner, but $300 on a gift, like, are you insane? It's like the $9 letterhead. It's all context and what people are used to. Yeah. That was the thing that I've come to realize too is my, so my mom's been gifting for, my mom's a realtor. She's been gifting for a long time since I was in Keiko. So I don't even know what rep she's... Actually, I do. She uses a rep that's in Tampa, buys. And then my mom's houses are not expensive.

Like my mom works and lives inside of a... She's single. She lives in a two-bedroom condo. Most of the people who are there are all retired. Older people, they're usually there for like either the entire year. But most of them are from up north, right? they're all retired, older people. They usually there for like either the entire year and they're, they, but most of them are from up North, right? They're, they're, they're all coming from a North and coming down to Florida. She might make, you know, three to $6,000 on a sale, but she'll spend a few hundred bucks on making sure that they get knives and nobody can, my mom was in a car,

a complex, a condominiumium that's literally a thousand units. There's no other person that sells inside of that place, except for Debbie dial. Like she is the salesperson. She owns it because she's been doing it now for 15 years, you know? So it's just like, nobody would ever consider going to anybody else. And then there's a lot of people that want to go from a two bedroom to a three bedroom. So she'll go from a two bedroom to a three bedroom. So they'll buy a place. But then what's also cool about that is she also sells at old place. So she's getting both of them double dipping. She's double dipping on all of it. Right. So it's like, but she does this and my mom's very frugal. That's where I learned it from.

And, uh, but she understands the power of the relationship with somebody. Cause people always have to live in a house. And if they're going to be buying houses and moving houses, you might as well have them remember you. Yeah. Because nothing drives me more crazy than when I see someone with a bottle of wine they got from the realtor. I'm like, dude, can you just do something?

Like, just show that you give a shit. Like, that's honestly the way that I feel. Like, just show that you care about somebody. You just made $26,000 or made $1,000 or $4,000 off that sale. It doesn't matter what the dollar amount is. It's like, just realize that people. It doesn't matter what the dollar amount is. It's like just realize that people like paid their good hard-earned money. And in that case,

it's like their largest purchase ever, like a home, whether it's a $200,000 home or $2 million home, it's still their largest purchase. Like you're gonna give something that people are gonna think about one time and they piss it out.

That's if they even like the wine. Like oftentimes you give somebody a $25 bottle of wine, like, oh, they like wine. I'm like, what kind of wine they drink? They're like, oh, they drink like $200 bottles of wine. So you give somebody a 25 bottle of wine like oh they like wine i'm like what kind of wine they drink like oh they drink like 200 bottles of wine so you just spent money to give them something they're probably going to re-gift right like that's not a good gift yeah that's not a great way to build an impression or a relationship yeah it's like so simple but but most people look around sales reps are the worst they look around and see what everybody

else is giving and then just like they're sheep yeah and so they see gift cards to amazon like oh that's a great gift i'm like that's the worst gift in the world yeah i'll never remember never yeah man i think that's the important thing is it's like like even for instance when i first started this podcast it was it was no interview format like i'm doing more interview now because it's fun but it was literally like i was watching what everybody else was doing and i said how can i do something completely different And it was like everybody four years ago, because podcasts were not what they are now four years ago. Everybody was doing entrepreneur interview podcasts. That's what it all same thing, all the same people just in a big old circle, basically. And I was like, okay, they last an hour to two hours. At that point in time, I still had a job. I was like, my ride's

only 20 minutes to work. Like I get, I have this thing in my head where if I don't finish something, it really pisses me off. Like, that's why I don't eat candy. Cause I finished the entire bag. Like, so if I'm in the car for 20 minutes and I only hear part of an interview, then I'm like, I got to hear the rest of it. I got to hear the rest of it. I got to hear the rest of it. So I was like, I'm going to start a podcast where it's 10 to 20 minutes every Monday, Wednesday, Friday, it's only me talking. And that's that I just try to be different than everybody else. And I think it played to my benefit, but I think that that's what most people need to get better at is going, what is everybody else doing? And how can I do the exact same thing? Like everybody's sending these gifts. How can I send something different?

Everybody's sending emails. How can I send a handwritten note? Like as, as digitalized as we're becoming, it allows, there's a lot of opportunity for people who actually want to put thought into something. It's Seth Godin's purple, purple cow. People are like, you know, like, how do I stand out? I'm like, well, you know, purple cow is still a cow, like it, but it's being, you know, most, most people are Brown cows and purple cow, like people take pictures of and whatever else. And so I look at any part of a business, whether, you know, gifting, most people have in their mind of what a gift should be. It's swag. It's promos, 20 bucks. And you give somebody a $200 gift, it freaks them out because it's 10x.

And so, you know, like the, you know, we have metal business cards because early on I couldn't afford fancy websites and all this stuff. I'm like, how can I stand out? And I spent a dollar on my first business cards like 12 years ago. And people thought I was so dumb, but like it was because it was so different than what was the norm. And so our, our big thing is when we look at a company, it's like, what are the areas where everybody's having a pissing match, you know, at the highest level. And they're like, you know, trade show, like they'll sponsor the trade show and one will have a bigger booth or a bigger banner. And some of these guys are dropping like $5 million. I'm like, if you ask them what their real profit on those events are, they're hoping to break even right and so i'm like

find the areas where everybody's having a pissing match cut that out all together and find an area where people go really really cheap and own it you know it's like when you when you go to a i think it was um it's a restaurant like back in the day that would that would um they would give like a pickle and it costs like a dollar like this oversized pickle and they became known as the steakhouse they gave the pickle like people go in and spend 50 on a steak because of the stupid pickle and it's so finding the areas where like you can take it up a notch in an area where nobody else thinks about it it's like you know the places that early on you know you go into to get your haircut and they'd shine your shoes what did it cost them to shine your shoes right

next to nothing but that extra little thing in an area where everybody else was trying to cut expenses, they found an area where you can go all in on it and that becomes the differentiator. And that's really all we're teaching people to do is use gifting as a way to stand out from the noise, to zig when everybody's zagging. And I mean, every entrepreneur does it in certain areas of their business. I think most entrepreneurs, gifting feels like this warm, fuzzy, and I mean, every entrepreneur does it in certain areas of their business. I think most entrepreneurs gifting feels like this warm, fuzzy, nebulous, like most people don't even feel comfortable gifting their spouse something well. So you bring them into a business scenario or something. Yeah.

Another guy. And now you have to do it for a hundred people. It's just better. Like they just kind of avoid it or they delegate it to their assistant with unrealistic expectations. And then they're like, well, yeah, gifting doesn't work. And I'm like, you haven't followed any of the recipe. You didn't personalize it. You didn't give it at the right time.

You didn't do any of this stuff. It's not the same thing. And that's where people are like, I get pushback all the time. Like, man, this is a joke. Like, I can tell, like, I'm going on stage and, like, the arms are crossed. And the CFOs in the audience are like, whatever. And by the end of it, they're like, holy crap. Like, I get it now. Like, you're not really talking about gifting.

You're talking about relationship building at this high level. And yeah, but the zigging when everybody else zags is it's easier said than done with something that you feel uncomfortable with. Well, and also like I can actually attest to as you're talking, I remembered two different times. I remembered I was on Facebook and you were tagged in something because of how different it was. The first one, David Gonzalez, who we're having dinner with tonight, but he had a picture of, he had a video of like,

holy crap. I just got a knife and a metal business card, like with a note. Three times I can remember that this has happened now that I'm thinking of it. Okay. So, so he was the first one. Uh, and the second one was Ryan Moran, right? Ryan Moran had posted something about it as well. And then the third time was, uh, is it Dave Woodward? Is that his name? Dave Woodward. The guy who owns ClickFunnels. Yeah. So Dave literally owns a company. It's over a hundred million dollars. He's, you know, co-founder. Yeah. He's so he's over a hundred million dollars a year they do and i'm scrolling through my facebook and it was like a five or ten minute video of him literally

unboxing this being like everybody should use john ruling john ruling this this is amazing like i don't i don't know why why everybody else isn't doing this is this whole long video literally you gave this dude some knives not expecting this to happen but you got a ton of advertisement and promo from a guy who's super really really respected in digital marketing super digital ironically yeah and that's what i'm saying so it's what's cool about is it's going from non-digital and then it can spread through digital because people love to share stuff that's not normal yeah at a core level like when people say like, John, like, you know, if you, if you, what's the problem you really solve? And the, the, the core question is if your clients and your employees aren't actively sending you referrals

and becoming your personal Salesforce, then you have a loyalty problem. And really like when I gifted Dave that way, like he became my salesperson. Now to hire Dave Woodward, you know, a hundred million dollar company to be a salesperson you can't it'd be seven figures yeah i sent him five thousand dollars in knives that are all you know the big thing was it wasn't the knife right the knife every knife was personalized with a low with a quote from his podcast or his facebook live so it was made super personal to him i i saw that his wife he called his wife princess carrie so everything was princess carrie and so like that was like it made him feel like a million bucks he said john in 30 years this is the best gift anybody's ever given me and we do like he's like i teach dream 100 yeah you know like the

whole chet holmes ultimate sales machine and so people don't realize that if you do it well like it's not just about the loyalty of the person in their business like you know i have thousands of people that are out there actively selling for me just because I loved on them. Yeah. Like that's a silly ROI. It's not just the ripple effect. And I think with social media,

that's the cool thing is like the non-digital becomes digital because people like, when they feel something and they feel connected, they go out of their way. And that thing's been viewed by... I had people that have known me for a decade that say, John, I didn't understand why you did the stupid knife thing still. Really?

They're like, now I get it. It's not about the knives. It's about the impact and the personalization, all these other things. I'm like, Brian, you know me for a decade and you didn't understand that that's what I was teaching? Yeah. But watching that video from Dave, all of a sudden it crystallized. I couldn't have paid him. Like the amount of times I'm showing that video to other people, like it's amazing. It's been, it's been like one of our best sales letters. It's crazy. So good. So let's send them off. What would you, what would you want to, you know,

obviously we want everybody to go listen and, or download and read and all of that stuff, your book giftology, which is is i'm sure has all of the information of how to be better at it but for you know the people that are listening what's the what's the best send-off as far as how to get better at this how to just more than anything else just how to show people that you care more yeah well i would i'd be a sucky uh giftologist if i didn't give some sort of gifts and so so, um, about a month ago I had my team, they've worked on it for about nine months. I'm like, can you put together a plan? Like the book is great, you know, paying us 50 grand to speak is great, but most people can't afford

the speaking. And you know, sometimes small businesses get intimidated to hire us to do their gifting, even if they could actually afford us. Um, and so I'm like, what if, what if we put together like a plan where people can like walk themselves through not, not just the, what the gift, cause that's where people get like stuck on. I'm like, what if, what if we put together like a plan where people can like walk themselves through now, not just the, what the gift, cause that's where people get like stuck on. I'm like the, what the gift is like the last part, right? Like who are you giving gifts to? Why, when, like, what's the roadmap that they can follow almost like paint by numbers.

And so we built it out. It's good. They can go to download it for free. I don't even think there's a lead capture form on it at this point. Like it's literally like a true gift. There's no email or anything. Now, if somebody hires us to do that plan with them, it costs like $1,600. But they can have the free download at giftologyplan.com.

And at some point in time, we'll have a lead capture form and an upsell and all that kind of stuff. But at this point, literally, we just put it together about five weeks ago. I bet Dave Borden could help with that. I'm sure he could. He could probably help could help with that. I'm sure he could. He could probably help you out with that. I'm sure he could. But at this point, it's a free form. And to me, it's the simplest way to walk through it.

And more than anything, like if you can just write down and have a simple plan, like that's where people – like they try to get like, you know, up here in their head and they get freaked out. And so they end up doing nothing at all. And so trying to get people just to start somewhere is a big thing for us. Awesome. So giftologyplan.com. Yep. Cool.

Thank you, brother. Dude. Been good. Love talking to you. Absolutely. And that's all we got. Go check it out. Go check it out.

Go check it out. Go check it out. Go check it out. Go check it out. Go check it out. Go check it out. Go check it out. Go check it out.

Go check it out. Go check it out. Go check it out. Go check it out. Go check it out. Go check it out. Go check it out. Go check it out.

Go check it out. Go check it out. Go check it out. Bye.