The Mindset Mentor - Interview with a Licensed Therapist: Understanding Anxiety

Starting point is 00:00:00 Welcome to today's episode of the Mindset Mentor podcast. I'm excited for you to hear this interview. This interview is actually with a licensed therapist named Heisoo Jo. And she's actually a licensed therapist through BetterHelp, which you've heard me talk about many times on this podcast. And there's a few things that we dive into that I really think are important for you to listen to. The first thing that we talk about is anxiety. What is anxiety? How do we notice it in the body? And what are some tools and tips and tricks to work through anxiety so that we can feel better throughout the day? The next thing that we talk about in this episode is worry. Where does worry come from? Why do we worry so much? What does it hold us back from?

Starting point is 00:00:43 And then also, what are some tools and tricks that she can give us and you on how to get past our worrying? And the last thing that we talk about in today's episode is how to get past your control problems and how to be a little bit more okay with the unknown. So that's what we cover in today's episode. Let's go ahead and dive in. Hey, welcome to the Mindset Mentor podcast. I'm so excited to have you here. Thanks so much for having me. Yeah, I'm excited because one thing I really want to dive into with you is anxiety and stress and anxiety. I know a lot right now people are talking about anxiety and it seems like over the past two and a half, three years, anxiety has been on the rise. But I'm not really sure most people know exactly what anxiety is. So

Starting point is 00:01:26 what is anxiety exactly? And what's the difference between worry and stress and anxiety? So people can kind of identify if anxiety might actually be a problem for them. Sure. So anxiety is, let's say, the collection of various psychological and physiological responses to perceived threat of danger. So danger can mean a lot of different things, right? It could mean there's a bear out there trying to get me, or it could mean I have a really stressful presentation that I have to present. So any kind of perceived thing that's going to cause me pain, discomfort, some kind of disruption, anxiety is the resulting, like I said, collection of things that can happen to people. So, you know, you asked about the difference between anxiety and like worry and

Starting point is 00:02:21 fear and all these things, worry, fear, dread, unease, restlessness, racing thoughts, hypervigilance, all of these things are part of anxiety. These are the psychological responses we have when we have encountered some kind of perceived danger. There's also physiological responses. So that's the stuff that's going on in our body when we are experiencing something like anxiety. So some of the things that's going on in our body when we are experiencing something like anxiety. So some of the things that people may have experienced when they're anxious in their body include perspiration. So being super sweaty, cold hands and feet, tense muscles, rapid heart rate, shallow breathing, gastrointestinal discomfort. So stuff going on in your tummy, blurred vision, lightheadedness, tightness in your chest. So it could be that you've experienced some of these things,

Starting point is 00:03:10 all of these things, different combinations of these things, depending on what you're experiencing. And going back to the question of like, where does anxiety come from? Now we know what it is, where is it coming from? I personally think that this is an evolved trait, and a lot of people think that too. So if you want to research into this, you'll find what evolutionary psychologists are saying, a learned trait, an evolved thing to help us survive. that lived in much more primitive times, they did encounter a lot of danger in their lives, whether that's the threat of some kind of predator or, you know, the threat of some kind of disaster ahead of them. Anxiety actually allows us to plan ahead. Like that, that fear associated with anxiety is what gets people to start thinking of potential outcomes in order to prepare. So imagine somebody with zero anxiety, they probably never plan ahead or they don't really get prepared on a journey that

Starting point is 00:04:13 they're about to take. So if something does happen, they don't have any of the stuff that they need. I do want to kind of talk a little bit about why we experience those physiological symptoms to help people understand too, like perspiration. Why do we get so sweaty? That can actually cause people to feel even more anxious depending on what they're about to go through. And your body is actually preemptively regulating temperature in the event that you need to exert a lot of physical energy. And that's where the perspiration is coming from. Like warming up the muscles kind of? a lot of physical energy. And that's where the perspiration is coming from. Like warming up the muscles kind of? Yeah. Or I mean, it's, it's preemptively, um, making sure that you don't overheat in the event of having to like sprint away from danger or fight off something that's trying to attack you.

Starting point is 00:04:57 The reason we sweat is to regulate temperature, bring it down on a hot day. So why do my hands and feet get so cold? Your body is now, you know, diverting blood away from your extremities into your larger muscle groups, because if there's some kind of huge danger, you generally don't need to be able to use fine motor skills. What you do need to be able to do is run away or punch something, kick something. So that's why feet and hands can tend to get very cold during these times. Why are my muscles so tense? Your body is getting amped up, right? We're being kind of flooded with adrenaline, stress hormones, and this kind of stuff, again, is preparing us to exert a lot of physical energy to keep us safe from something. The rapid heart rate, same kind of thing is our body is pumping blood into the areas that it's going to need in order to do this.

Starting point is 00:05:50 But the issue is most of us, when we experience anxiety, it's not because we actually have to run away physically from something. It's often not because we need to fight something. We're usually just sitting at a desk or among a bunch of people in a crowd. And then we're experiencing all this stuff and we're not actually exerting the energy and it's just being stored into our body. I know I listed all these other symptoms, but I think it's important for people to know this stuff so they can understand what's happening in their body. Because when we don't understand, I think it tends to lead to even more freaking out. So like the GI issues, gastrointestinal discomfort, why do I get bubble gut when I'm nervous about

Starting point is 00:06:27 something? Your body is preemptively, again, preparing to empty your system out so that you can move a little bit more effectively. So all in all, anxiety to a certain degree is helpful for us. And I hope that people can think about it that way and understand that it's not something to feel bad about. And it's certainly not something to try to make go away. So when you're seeking out support or even healing from debilitating anxiety, I don't

Starting point is 00:06:58 want people to think that they're going to go to therapy and figure out how to make anxiety stop. It's more about learning to understand it and then coping with it when it does enter your system. That's interesting. The first thought that comes into my head, because for the longest time, I feel like whenever I had something I wanted to work through, it was like, I can't wait to get rid of this thing. I've got to get rid of it. But it's not something you can really get rid of. It's something where it's like a tool in your tool belt where it's necessary. That's why it's built into us as humans. But if it takes over and it's constantly running all the time, it's not really helping.

Starting point is 00:07:29 And so the way that I think about it is almost like, you know, we have a puppy and we took him to go get training. And as he got training, he was able to be better at going, you know, stop barking, go outside, all of that. It seems like almost in the mind to tell me if you think the same way as well. It's almost like going to therapy. It's kind of like taking your dog to a trainer where it's like, you just want to be able to train your mind whenever these things come up and be aware of like, oh, okay, I'm feeling anxious thoughts. And then maybe have some tools once you become aware to work through them in the present moment. Is that kind of the way you think

Starting point is 00:08:02 of it as well? Totally. And I've used a similar analogy before to people. It's like athletes are training their body on a very regular basis. And they're generally training when they're not under pressure. They're training their bodies outside of competition. They're strengthening their muscles. They're making themselves more flexible, have more balance, stamina, endurance, so that when they come up to the day, whatever this thing is, their body is prepared. People cannot decide today that they're going to run a marathon tomorrow and do that effectively if there's been no training. And similar to our responses to emotional and mental disturbances, if we've been training ourselves for a longer period of time before this thing, then when this thing happens, we're prepared. We generally have some tools, some skills to turn to rather than trying to, you know, run this 26.2 miles without any proper preparing.

Starting point is 00:09:07 2.2 miles without any proper preparing. Yeah. So what would be, you know, if someone's out there and they've identified, man, I think I, I think anxiety is something that really does hit home with me. Um, what are some tools, I guess, that, that you give people to actually start to work through them as they become aware? Like, so if someone, someone goes to a therapist and they say, Hey, like I, I get these, I worry a lot. I feel these anxious thoughts and I start to sweat. Um, what are a couple of tools that you help people through this process to kind of, I guess, be more present and, um, and get control of those anxious thoughts? Uh, well, I always start with that education piece. What you and I just kind of went through is talking about what kind of responses one can expect so that when somebody does experience that, they have a better understanding. Because I do tend to think that if somebody has a better understanding of what our bodies are doing, it helps us practice more compassion on ourselves.

Starting point is 00:09:57 Because ultimately, our body is doing as intended, as designed. So I can say, good job, even though my heart is pounding inside of my chest and my stomach feels like it's going to fly out of my head. Like all this stuff, I can tell myself with kindness, good job, body. Thank you for keeping me safe. Now I'm going to turn to some tools to calm my nervous system down, which I'll get to in a second. Because if you're freaking out, the not helpful thing to do is to develop shame around this and feel like something's wrong with you. Something is deranged with me because I'm freaking out and I don't know what this is all about. So I hope that people can first extend some kind patience to themselves and even self-praise for good job, buddy.

Starting point is 00:10:42 Good job, system. You're doing what you need to. But now I need to calm down. So some of the things that people can do to calm down. I think it's a it's a lifelong practice to incorporate these things into a lifestyle. Similarly, like, you know, you train to be prepared for a time that you're under pressure. So really, it's good to be training when you don't have that stress. So when you're at a baseline, it's good to practice these things. So one of these exercises, which is really simple, really quick, people can do this anytime, is tuning into their five senses. So we all learned what these were in grade school. And you can actually look it up online too, if you forget what to check in with, but it's really about shifting attention. So it could be that you're

Starting point is 00:11:29 in a waiting room, really nervous about something. You could do it there. You could do it sitting at your desk, but you look around and just start first, like breathing in a, in a regular pace. Breathing is automatic until we start thinking about it. And sometimes in that automated process, we stop breathing. I don't know if people realize this, but we actually stop breathing so many times during the day. We hold our breath when we're stressed out for whatever reason. So it's important to breathe, get oxygen to your brain. And those five senses, what are five things that you can see right now? Just listing them quietly to yourself mentally. What are four things that you can hear? And the thing listing them quietly to yourself mentally. What are four things that you can hear? And the thing with hearing is that you really got to pay attention because that's a different

Starting point is 00:12:09 kind of cue that we're not always actively tuning into. But generally, you can usually hear four, if not more things around you. What are three things you can smell? It's really bringing attention back to something, taking a sniff, getting a whiff of something. What are two things that I can presently feel, touch? So for me, I can feel the weight of my body on my chair right now. I can feel some hair on the sides of my neck. So that kind of thing. And one thing that I can taste, what's a detection of taste in my mouth could be that you have the aftertaste of coffee from this morning, or maybe you're thinking there, I don't really taste anything at all.

Starting point is 00:12:47 And in this mental exercise, while you've been paying attention to your five sesses, after you get through it, you'll realize, oh, I feel a bit more calm. And that's because you shifted your attention away from this thing that you were freaking out about to just what's right in front of you. it's right in front of you. And this is the crux of mindfulness is being attuned to your present moment, reminding that you're writing your nervous system right now, that there's no reason to freak out. Of course, there are situations where there is a very valid reason to freak out. But since you've been training your body all along, you know how to calm your nervous system down. And even though that's not going to make the valid danger around you go away. You can calm your internal experience down enough to go into problem solving when you're panicking and you can't get yourself to, you know, calm yourself. There's no way that you can effectively problem solve. So that's one exercise,

Starting point is 00:13:38 but there's many others. There's meditation, which can be difficult for people to get into if they have zero practice with that. So you can start with finding guided meditations online and effectively move into an individual practice eventually someday. If that's not really your jam, there's things like, uh, progressive muscle relaxation. And so this is also a guided exercise in which you pay attention to your body. So this is also a guided exercise in which you pay attention to your body. So, you know, people that have a lot of attunement to what's going on physically for themselves, I think can actually access the mind body connection a little bit easier.

Starting point is 00:14:16 But people that are very unaware of what's going on in their body, this is a great practice to start learning how to pay attention to different muscle groups. What happens when you tense this muscle and then release it? Regular movement in general. So I know not everybody wants to hear this, but exercise is important and it actually helps us maintain a calm baseline. I mean, if you have great cardiovascular health, if you are regularly and preemptively training your body to be kind of mentioned this stuff earlier, but, um, strong, balanced, have endurance

Starting point is 00:14:53 stamina. Um, this is all going to help you be pretty, uh, balanced on a regular basis. And, um, Oh, another thing is you want to be mindful of your caffeine intake, any other stimulants that you might be taking. This kind of stuff can increase people's levels of anxiety, but they're not really thinking about it that way because everybody drinks coffee. It's how I have to get up and get going in the morning, but it could actually be contributing to panic in your life if you're a little bit too jittery.

Starting point is 00:15:22 Yeah. Yeah. That's so funny. Cause I've, I've actually realized the same thing. And I've been saying that a lot on the podcast recently is like, people should just monitor their caffeine intake a little bit more because sometimes they're like, I don't know why I'm so anxious throughout the day. And then they realize they've had four or five cups of coffee. It's like, Hey, what if you tried one or two and just see if maybe you feel a little bit different throughout the day. Um, there's one common

Starting point is 00:15:43 thing that, that it seems like you keep bringing up and I'm really curious about it. So it seems like one of the best ways to get out of anxiety is to get yourself to the present moment. And so with worry and anxiety, it seems like a lot of times we are basically thinking about something that's in the future that may or may not happen. And then our body seems to be responding as, hey, this is a potential threat. I need to get myself ready for it. And so do you find that most of the time when someone has worry, when they do have anxiety, the problem is that they're just too much in their head, they're too much in the future. And that the most important thing is just like, hey, come on back to this, this present moment. Like I always say, your brain is basically somewhere else,

Starting point is 00:16:23 but your body is always here. And so it seems like the body and coming back to the body is one of the most, the biggest anchors that you can remind yourself to come back to when you're starting to feel those feelings, right? Yeah. I can't disagree with that. Um, you know, some people will say that depression is when our mind is stuck in the past or somewhere else, like you said, and anxiety is when our mind is stuck in the future, but life is what's happening in the present. So when people are, you know, debilitated by depression and or anxiety, they're really not living because they're not able to focus on what's right in front of them, which is our real life. Um, so yeah, I w I would definitely agree with you that anxiety is largely about our attention just being stuck in a place of this may or may not happen.

Starting point is 00:17:06 Yeah, I'm really curious with with worry kind of being a part of anxiety. I have a friend whose mom worries like crazy. Like I didn't realize people worried so much until I until I became friends with him and then started talking with her and hearing stories and stuff. and then started talking with her and hearing stories and stuff. But I'm curious with worry, do you feel like a part of worry is making us feel like, okay, there's something coming up in the future maybe, but in this present moment,

Starting point is 00:17:36 it kind of makes us have a fake feeling of control because I'm doing something about it right now? What is worry and what's the point of it? Obviously, there's benefit because worry can't keep us alive, but what is the actual point of worry for humans? Oh, good question. You kind of already answered that bit. I think in some cases, a little bit of worrying is what allows us to plan ahead. I think people have done some brain scans when somebody is really anxious or worrying

Starting point is 00:18:03 about something in the future. There's a certain part of your amygdala that's being highlighted and the prefrontal cortex is activated. This is what allows us to think about potential scenarios or, you know, put ourselves in somebody else's shoes and imagine what might happen in that situation. And they get really worried about it to hopefully help us prepare. And they get really worried about it to hopefully help us prepare. But the thing that you said that's really interesting is like some people might feel in some kind of way that they are doing something about the situation by being worried. I've had many clients kind of describe this experience too. And so then we go deeper into that for me to help them see that the worrying didn't actually do anything unless it did put them into action in some form. But a lot of times it's like, is your worry it's thinking about the problem at hand and asking yourself, can I do anything about this right now? Can I actually physically or mentally start doing something about this problem?

Starting point is 00:19:17 And if the answer is no, then, you know, you remind yourself, okay, worrying is not actually going to solve it. Then, you know, you remind yourself, okay, worrying is not actually going to solve it. I can't actually do anything, which means this thing is outside of my control. That actually allows us to start bringing attention back to the present. If it's outside of my right now, then you can start listing very explicitly the actionable items that you can do. And then I think that will help you start feeling better because you're actually doing something to try to solve the issue. And if you're not doing something, it's because you've already answered to yourself that you can't do something that's outside of your control. What about the people at that point, though? So let's say, because I already like hear people, I know this is gonna go right, where it's like, okay, I'm worrying about something I've identified. Okay. I, what I can do, I've identified what I can't do. But now that I see

Starting point is 00:20:13 all the things that I can't do, I'm actually freaking out about the fact that I'm so out of control. So when you have clients that come in and work with you in therapy and they're like, well, I, I, I just, this is uncertain. I can't control this thing. This is the reason why I worry. Is there a ways to, I guess, get them out of their head or, or a journaling practice or something where it's like just becoming more at ease with understanding, like you can't control everything in this world. Like there's a very small amount of things and we just have to kind of trust and have faith that whatever's going to work out outside of our control is going to be what it's going to be. And we're going to kind of trust and have faith that whatever's going to work out outside of our control is going to be what it's going to be. And we're going to have the tools to work through things as they come up.

Starting point is 00:20:49 What do you typically work through with somebody that has those feelings of uncertainty and a control problem and wanting to control all of those things that they can't control? So the controlling worry wart. Yeah. troubling worrywart. You know, that person's challenges are not going to be resolved overnight, especially not in one therapy session. In fact, all the therapy sessions in the world are not going to change this person's behavior or the way that they feel about certain things. What's going to change and evolve their response to this kind of stuff is their own practice. So it's what they choose to do and what they choose to this kind of stuff is their own practice. So it's what they choose to do and what they choose to practice outside of the therapy sessions. So it's going to be

Starting point is 00:21:30 important for somebody like that to be open to trying the different things that your therapist might talk about if you're in therapy, or if you're on a self-help route. You're going to find a lot of these recommendations too, is to practice the art of shifting your attention to the present moment. And, um, you know, the, the, the person that's saying like, I've now identified all these things that I can't do anything about. And that's just making me feel even more worried because I have no control. It's going to be really important for that person to incorporate a practice of, um, all the things that we talked about, those little tools, but generally mindful living. Basically, like another tenet of mindfulness is having patience, compassion, loving kindness

Starting point is 00:22:19 for yourself and for your thoughts, for all of your feelings, all these things that come and go from our psyche. So, you know, one thing I practiced before in a meditative retreat center, I was in an area where there's a lot of mosquitoes. And so everybody has a lot of mosquito bites and we want to scratch it. And I remember the guide at the time was saying like, to me, enlightenment is about being able to have a bunch of mosquito bites, notice them and not generally have to perceive the sensation from these mosquito bites as discomfort. You can notice the itch and just let it go as a passing sensation. Now I haven't reached that point. If I have mosquito bites, I want to scratch it. But I think about that example quite often.

Starting point is 00:23:08 That's what we're striving for in a mindful life and a practice of being able to shift attention in our life, in our everyday navigation of the world, is noticing something, a thought, a feeling, a triggering event, and reminding yourself that it's something that's going to pass so you can notice it and let it go. You don't have to be affected by it. You don't have to be disturbed by it. And now it allows me at least to not get as annoyed when I'm scratching the mosquito, but I'm still scratching it. Yeah. So you mentioned something about journaling. I

Starting point is 00:23:46 think that can be super helpful for some people. Of course, it's not an all encompassing thing. I don't think anything in the world of mental, emotional wellness and health is a one size fits all. I don't think that exists here. However, for somebody that's starting from scratch, it can be a really good place to start because journaling allows you to track your thoughts, track your reflections to your day. So many people are living life kind of aimlessly. And what I mean by that is they're not really taking inventory of anything that they've already accomplished. And so they move through the world thinking, I haven't really accomplished anything. When really it's like, you just haven't been tracking your progress.

Starting point is 00:24:23 the world thinking I haven't really accomplished anything when really it's like you just haven't been tracking your progress. And journaling is not just dear diary today I had so and so whatever. It can also look like just bullet points of stuff that you want to remember from the day. If you have certain goals that you're working towards, it's really about getting explicit about what kind of progress that you made towards it, reflecting on what barriers you had that made it so that you couldn't make any progress today. Because believe it or not, our memories kind of suck. So I don't advise that anybody tries to rely on their memory. So many people rely on their memory and then they feel terrible about themselves. So I do trust in my present self to write something down so that my future self will have a place to reference, a place to remind of all the things that I was able to accomplish. It's awesome. I love that. So that's what we got for you for today's episode.

Starting point is 00:25:16 If you love this episode and you're actually thinking about trying out therapy, once again, you've heard me recommend it so many times. I recommend BetterHelp just because it's so easy to do and you can do it from home and you can switch therapists whenever you need to. If you want to go ahead and get a 10% discount on your first month, go to betterhelp.com slash dial. Once again, betterhelp.com slash dial to actually get 10% off your first month and give therapy a try.

The Mindset Mentor - Interview with a Licensed Therapist: Understanding Anxiety

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