The Mindset Mentor - Overcoming Fear & Trauma While Harnessing Your Power w/ Lewis Howes | The Expert Series

Episode Date: May 25, 2021

On this week's episode of The Expert Series, Rob Dial enters "The School of Greatness" and sits down with Lewis Howes, an American author, entrepreneur, and former professional Arena League football player. Rob and Lewis have an in-depth conversation about overcoming challenges in life, such as fear, by harnessing the power within you. -- Thank you to our sponsors: Grove: Visit Grove.Co/ROB to choose a FREE gift with your first purchase of $30 or more! Trust&Will: Go to TrustandWill.com/ROB to get 10% OFF + FREE shipping! AthleticGreens: Visit AthleticGreens.com/DIAL to get your FREE year supply of Vitamin D and 5 FREE travel packs today! -- Rob Dial @robdialjr Lewis Howes @lewishowes Want to learn more about Mindset Mentor+? For nearly nine years, the Mindset Mentor Podcast has guided you through life's ups and downs. Now, you can dive even deeper with Mindset Mentor Plus. Turn every podcast lesson into real-world results with detailed worksheets, journaling prompts, and a supportive community of like-minded people. Enjoy monthly live Q&A sessions with me, and all this for less than a dollar a day. If you’re committed to real, lasting change, this is for you.Join here 👉 www.mindsetmentor.com My first book that I’ve ever written is now available. It’s called LEVEL UP and It’s a step-by-step guide to go from where you are now, to where you want to be as fast as possible.📚If you want to order yours today, you can just head over to robdial.com/bookHere are some useful links for you… If you want access to a multitude of life advice, self development tips, and exclusive content daily that will help you improve your life, then you can follow me around the web at these links here:Instagram TikTokFacebookYoutube

Welcome to the Mindset Mentor Podcast. I'm your host, Rob Dial. And if you haven't done so, hit the subscribe button so you never miss another podcast episode. I am sitting here with Lewis Howes in the School of Greatness studio. Good to see you, man. I told you I had a story for you. So I have a story to tell you about my podcast. Yeah. So 2015, an ex-girlfriend went through a pretty bad breakup a couple years before, right? She shared and she was on a drive and she said, just listen to an amazing podcast. And it was your picture. And I was like, what the hell is a podcast? Probably of 2014, 2015. Then I moved to

Austin, Texas and I had a roommate that kept listening to podcasts over. I used to make fun of him. I was like, he you listen to podcasts so much, man. And I had no idea I listened to them, but he kept listening, and he's like, you gotta check this one out. And so it was the School of Greatness podcast. And I was like, oh, that's cool. I would wanna do something like that one day,

and I was a musician, that's why I moved to Austin. And I was like, I- Guitar, what were you playing? Yeah, guitar and sing. So I had a microphone in the house. I had a Shure SM7B, the same ones you see everybody using. I had the whole setup and I was like, man, I could probably do that.

And the whole reason why I started the podcast was because I started listening to yours. That's cool. And now we're at about 60 million downloads. Oh man, crushing it. 60 million downloads and about to hit 1,000 episodes as well. Wow, that's exciting.

Yeah, we just hit 1,100, so you've been cranking them out. Three episodes a week for six years now. That's amazing, man. Congrats. Thanks, man. I'm curious, though, with you. I know your story, but I'm curious, what made you want to start a podcast? Because when I started, nobody knew what podcasts were, and you started before I did. So what made you decide to start a podcast? I started, wait, it's January 2013. So I was thinking about it maybe four or five months before that in 2012. And the technology was not there. The awareness was not there.

But I remember just feeling stuck. I had moved to LA for a girl. The day I moved, she broke up with me. And I was like, what is happening? Like my life was going upside down and we ended up getting back together. It was up and down for the next six months, but I just felt like my life, I'd moved from Ohio to New York city for a year and a half to learn handball, team handball, to try to make the USA national team, to go to the Olympics. My business was

exploding during those couple of years. And then I moved to LA and everything became like very volatile. And I remember being upset that I was in LA. I was driving in LA traffic at the time when it was like took an hour to go one mile. I was frustrated with my relationship. Other friendships were kind of failing and breaking down. And I had so much noise in my mind I felt stuck hmm and I remember sitting in traffic thinking like I feel stuck and I'm literally stuck in traffic right now this sucks I'd rather be back

in New York City yeah walking around feeling like the king or whatever and I was like there's got to be a way where I can learn something to make myself unstuck but also For everyone that might be stuck driving in traffic around the world. I was like there's got to be a way I can learn for myself From the greatest minds who can teach me the things that to overcome this but also I'm sure there's a lot of people in traffic who are miserable right now for sure How can I make this a win-win and that that was the moment where I was like, I remember hearing about podcasting. A couple of friends had one. I literally called them in the car because I'm sitting there forever. I called them in the car and asked them, tell me about the podcast you have. Tell me why you love

it. Is it working for you? Is it not? And both of them said it was like the greatest thing. The joy they got from it. They said the community they were building from it, they loved it. And I was like, if these guys could do this, I'm sure I could figure this out. Even though I have no experience doing any type of technical work, podcasting, interviewing like this, I really don't know what I'm doing. But I love human beings and I'm fascinated by learning from them. And I want to learn the skills that I didn't have in school growing up. And that's how I connected. I was like, I wish there was a school

I could have gone to to help me overcome the fear of failure, imposter syndrome, doubting myself, dealing with the chatter in my mind, negative thoughts, how to deal with breakups and relationships. No one ever taught me these things. Parents did the best they could, but they don't have all the answers. Teachers do the best they can on subjects, but they don't have the answers. My coaches in sports probably taught me the most because they teach you how to overcome failure.

They teach you how to prepare for big moments. They teach you a lot of these things, the great ones. But in general, I felt like, man, so many things I'm dealing with my heart and my mind that i don't know how to manage well i wish there was a school for this i wish there was a school that was just like taught you how to be great the school of greatness and that's where it came to that did you have that like idea literally in there and in the car and i called my friend james wedmore who you know, and I go, I got this

idea, School of Greatness. What do you think of this name? And he was like, I love it. And I called my other friend, Derek Halpern. I go, I'm thinking about doing this podcast, School of Greatness. What do you think? He goes, terrible name. And today he'll still say, man, yeah, I'm glad you didn't listen to me. It's an amazing name. It didn't make sense for me at the time, but it's been like the greatest name that you've ever come up with. And yeah, I just wanted to create something that I wish I would have had growing up. And I feel like a lot of kids and adults still don't have those tools. And that's why I think your show and my show and a lot of our friends' shows, we're trying to create that environment and experience for people to learn in a way to help us overcome

whatever challenges we're dealing with. So we're having a moment where, like, the reason why I started my podcast, I felt like I was obligated to talk. So before we started, I was telling you how we started in Cutco and I was obsessed with personal development. And my story is personal development helped me get over my father's death. My father's an alcoholic and dealing with that, the traumas that come from having an alcoholic father. And I was in Jason's deli, the place of my girlfriend. And there was like this moment where I felt like everybody was yelling at their kids and they were screaming. And it was just like, it was like a fever pitch or just kind of like hit. I was like, I think I'm

gonna start a podcast. She's like, I don't even know what that is. Right. And so I described it to her, but there was an, I felt obligated to teach what was in my head. Was there a feeling of obligation on, you know, you're around people that are great and you want to bring these conversations? Like what was the feeling that made you decide that that was the thing? It's kind of like this thing that was pulling at me, that was nagging at me. I actually had this dream of doing the podcast back in 2007 when I was on my sister's couch, stopped playing football, was transitioning into figuring out

who am I going to be in the world? What is going to be my identity? What am I going to, am I going to work a career? Am I going to build a business? I was just like, I don't know what I'm going to do with the rest of my life. And I started dreaming at that moment that I would love to sit down and have conversations

with really talented, smart people. At the time, it was more like I would love to sit down and have conversations with really talented, smart people. At the time, it was more like I'd love to interview world-class athletes because I was fascinated by world-class athletes, how they became champions, how they overcame challenges, how they come from behind. I was fascinated by it because that was the world I was in. And so I started to do that by just meeting people and having conversations one by one, but I was never recording it. I just started using LinkedIn as a tool to network and find CEOs, executives, business leaders, athletes, former athletes, and I would just have coffee with people back during those few years.

No one knew who I was. I didn't have a platform. I didn't have an audience. And so I was like, this is something I want to do, but I knew I wasn't ready for it. I knew I needed other skills at that time in order to be able to do it and make an impact on myself and other people. And I built another business during those four or five years, which gave me a lot of training and tools to then give me more credibility to be able to have

access to more inspiring people. So I feel like everything happens at the right timing. And as things started to break down for me, I was like, okay, I think this is, I had money. I had some success in business already. And I was like, well, if I do this, no one knows what this is. I'm not going to make any money doing this, but it's exactly what I want to do. So even if I don't make money, I'm happy. I think that was a calling for me. It was like, I don't care if I make a dollar all year. I just want to do this once a week and have inspiring conversations with people for myself to figure out how to get out of this, this rudiment, this season of my life. And if a few people listen and it helps them, great. And within that first year, it kind of exploded in a sense to where I was like, oh yeah, maybe we can make money doing this.

And then now we are eight years later. It's crazy. And what's super important about what you're saying though is there was some feeling of the universal pull. And I think a lot of people get that feeling in the poll but they don't listen to it and i feel like a lot of people that we know mutually i hear their stories about polls and not even you know just even people outside of of who i know that it's just they have a poll but instead of silencing it they decide to go for it and for you it sounds like

the poll was there and you listened to it not knowing how it's going to work out like you didn't know it would be what it is now i'm sure no idea but you just listened to it, not knowing how it was going to work out. You didn't know it would be what it is now, I'm sure. No idea. But you just listened to it and it ended up working out. I've always listened to it since I was a kid, to every pull I've had, and it's never failed me. It might have not worked out the way I wanted to, but it's always led me to something greater, even if it didn't work out the way I envisioned it. And so looking back at those experiences in my life, I know that when I take on something new, if it doesn't work out the way it's supposed to in my mind

or the way I envision it, I know that it's setting me up for something greater because everything has set me up for something greater. For sure. So that's the way I look at it. Yeah.

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Trust and Will documents are designed by estate planning experts and customized for the state that you live in. And as you get older, you realize how important it is to make sure that all of this is buttoned up, which is why I'll be using Trust and Will. Gain peace of mind at trustandwill.com and get 10% plus free shipping for all your customized legal documents. Don't wait. Go right now. This is super important. Get 10% plus free shipping for all your customized legal documents. Don't wait. Go right now. This is super important. Get 10% plus free shipping at trustinwill.com slash dial. That is trustinwill.com slash dial. And yeah, the thing that's interesting is I always tell people having a podcast is the most cathartic thing I've ever done. And the reason why was because going back to my father's death, I never talked about it.

Like, and I want to talk about this with you, you know, the mask of masculinity. I wasn't supposed to cry. I wasn't supposed, so my dad died on a Thursday. I went back to school on Monday and told nobody. In college? No, I was 15, high school, right? So I didn't even tell my best friends.

The only way they found out was my mom told her, my three best friends' parents, you know? And so, but you didn't talk about it. You're not supposed to, right? And so for the longest time, nobody so but you didn't talk about it no it's you're not supposed to right and so for the longest time nobody knew i didn't tell anybody and it was just like this this mask i wore i was embarrassed by him didn't want to pick me up from school when he was alive all of this stuff and uh and i remember literally in the other room is my business partner dean and i i literally we were on our way back from a podcasting event before we started i wrote down 100 authenticity because I had just read Brene Brown's book about vulnerability.

And I was like, I'm just going to talk about it. I'm going to put all my shit out there. And it's so freeing to finally take all of your shit and put it out there for everybody to be able to hear. And I know you've done the same as well. And I know you've done the same as well. And so I'm curious, has having a following and a podcast and people who are supporting you when you're going through talking about some of the toughest times of your life, what's that journey been like for you? Freedom. I mean, it's scary to put it out the first time if you've never done it before. I'm not saying that people should put it out publicly, their fears or shames or insecurities.

That was the path that I chose to do. It sounds like you as well. I felt more of a duty and responsibility and an opportunity for growth because it still had power over me. My shame was my sexual trauma growing up as a kid was one of the shames that I was unwilling to tell anyone because I didn't think anyone would love me because I didn't think anyone would love me I didn't think anyone would accept me I thought people would just discard me as a human as I had thought I'd been discarded in that moment of sexual trauma and when I started to open up about it individually one-to-one small groups friends family things like that.

It gave me a lot of peace after the fact. Very scary to do it, but then I started to feel more and more confident, more and more connected to the individuals that I was communicating with. They would be vulnerable with me. We created that connection. I thought it was good, but I was like, someone said you should talk about this on your podcast.

This was like in the first year, year and a half of my show. And I was like, no fucking way am I going to talk about this publicly. And I had a moment, I was just like, why am I resistant? Why am I scared still? And I was like, if I truly want to overcome this and be at peace, I can't be afraid to talk about this publicly either. Otherwise, that moment still has power over me. It's still controlling my energy. It's allowing me to have fear.

And I was like, wow, for six months, I sat on it. I remember thinking like, do I want to do this? I eventually said, okay, I'm going to do this. And this is going to ruin my life. But I need to do it to have peace. Because I didn't have peace. I still was a prisoner to the pain. And I remember asking Jonathan Fields, who's a buddy of mine who's got a great podcast and a spiritual mentor, friend of mine. I said, hey, I want to do this. I have no clue what I'm doing.

Can you guide me? And can you kind of interview me on my show and facilitate it? Because I don't want to mess this up. I don't want to have it come what I'm doing. Can you guide me? And can you kind of interview me on my show and facilitate it? Because I don't want to mess this up. I don't want to have it come out the wrong way. I don't want to say the wrong thing. I just want to like have some support in this process. So he did the interview with me and I sat on it for almost six months because I was

afraid to put it out there afterwards. I was like, what am I doing? Like, I'm never going to make money again. No one's going to love me. Like, I'm going to lose all my audience. It was like this fear. what am i doing like i'm never gonna make money again no one's gonna love me like i'm gonna lose all my audience it was like this fear and i remember i was just like man this thing is still consuming me i need to put it out there i put it out there i remember i didn't know what day it was or what was happening in the world but it was supposedly like i remember uh pushing publish

in wordpress and it was like maybe at 10 o'clock at night or something, 10 or 11 o'clock at night. And then I go into my balcony, and I was like, I'm not going to look at anything. I'm not going to look at Twitter or social media. I'm not going to look at emails until the next day. Put it out there. I go in my balcony, and it felt like it was daylight out.

It was supposedly like one of the biggest super moons ever in like the last hundred years. And it was like so big. I was like, man, this is crazy. I had no clue this was happening. And I was just like, okay, maybe this is a sign. I don't know. Maybe it's the right timing.

And then I woke up the next day flooded with hundreds of emails from men sharing their sexual abuse story for the first time. To you, an email? To me, an email, essays. Some of the most horrific stories that I'd ever read that made me, because I thought I was the only one. I thought I was the only one that had been through this type of experience. That's what I was so afraid of.

I'm the only one, which means I'm worthless, which means I've been abused. I've been taken advantage of. How could anyone ever love me and accept me? That was the fear. That was the story. And when I got these emails, it took me about two weeks to recover because they just kept coming in for weeks. And you read all of them? I read all of them? I read

all of them. And it's like this emotional hangover. I've never been drunk or hungover in my life, but I can only imagine what it would feel like to be hungover from these emotions that I was feeling. The stories that men were sharing were horrific. And it was almost like I was reliving all their pain. I'm not saying that's what I should have done, but I was just reliving it. It was so fresh for me. Men who had been married for 30 years, who had five kids that their wife didn't know, their kids didn't know, that said, I'm going to go tell my wife and kids. I was like, holy cow, this is crazy.

That's when I realized, okay, this is bigger than me. I need to go research this more. I need to go research this more. I need to go do my homework. And that's why I wrote a book about masculine masculinity where I was like, men in general, especially in America and kind of where the regions I grew up in, never had the tools to talk and express about the pain in a healthy way with a guy friend, parents, girlfriends, without being shamed or told like, suck it up. Don't be a wuss. Be a man. Don't cry in front of me. I don't want to hear this crap. Whatever. That's

what I experienced. And it's probably what I did also around peers, around other men. And I think I want to just be the best example I can be to try to shift that narrative and be a symbol, be an example, and put it out there constantly. So that's why I talk about on my show all my flaws all the time. And I think we're all a work in progress. But it's been a powerful journey of just listening to the pain, speaking into it so it doesn't have power over me. It's like that phrase, shame breeds in the dark. You know, when you just keep something in the dark, it just continues to keep growing. Festers, man. Oh, for sure. And so for you,

what do you feel like you've learned most about yourself in that process? From that experience or from the whole podcast? From that experience. Oh, man. that holding on to shame will kill you. And for me, it was killing me inside. It was creating a disease, an emotional disease that would come out at different times in my life, whether it be anger, resentment, rage, competition, the need to be right, the need to win,

the need to look good. It was a disease. And it was because I was unwilling to let go of the shame. I was holding on to the poison so much that anytime I was triggered emotionally or felt like I was being taken advantage of, it was like I was back in the bathroom when I was raped at five years. It was like I was back in the bathroom when I was raped

at five years old. That's how it felt. Anytime someone cut me off in a car, I wanted to get out of the car and physically destroy them. It was irrational because I didn't know how to heal the shame. I didn't know how to go back and really connect to my inner child and really have a conversation and let that go and forgive and move on. It's holding on to so much resentment and anger. So that's the biggest lesson. It was like the shame will destroy you. It will destroy you personally, your happiness, your fulfillment. It'll destroy your sleep. It'll destroy, it'll cause addictions. It'll destroy your relationships unless you learn how to heal it. Yeah. And it's been a constant healing process.

And there's other things we're going to need to learn to let go of always. So it's a constant process. For sure. So you thought people were going to disregard you, forget about you? I thought people were going to, yeah. I mean, this is— But what did you see instead of that? Besides the emails, what did you notice as far as people you're friends with bringing that out? Because I get, I mean, you probably get all the time in.

There's so many people, like having a following and having with what we speak about and self-development, all that, the category that we're in, we are sometimes the only person people reach out to. And you have way more compassion for people as you start to get in the field that we're in and the people that we, that we see the stories that we see so i have a lot of people that reached out to me and tell me some of the deepest darkest things thinking that there's nobody that will ever accept them which is what you thought right so what was what was the response that people that you were close to um it was amazing i mean people were loving and supportive and kind and compassionate and and i think that's where we are for it I was afraid that no one would like me and in the return by being vulnerable everyone loved me more Everyone trusted me more respected me more had

You know they wanted to be around me more and I think that's what we need to learn that like if you actually like the greatest hack to having like credibility or power or influence is not by acting powerful and trying to look strong and not showing you like your your vulnerabilities it's actually by revealing yourself for sure opening up your heart and sharing things that oh maybe i'm not confident here, I struggle with this, so people can actually feel like they can trust you and connect and relate. And I think if you want power, if you want respect, if you want authority, if you want command,

if you want influence, being vulnerable is the key that unlocks all those things that people fake to try to get, or they try to mask, to try to say, I am powerful, I deserve respect, I deserve this, I'm building an audience based on false things

as opposed to who you really are. And when we step into who we really are, it doesn't mean this, my past defines me, but just being able

to open up about it makes you more powerful, makes you more trustworthy, makes you more lovable. So if you want love, be open. I had a really similar conversation with dinner with Jay Shetty last night and we were talking about have you met Radhanath Swami, his guru? Kindest, slowest speaking, most present person I've ever been in a room with.

Like when he looks at you, there's nothing else that exists in the entire world. And we were talking about how the only person I've ever met that's been close to that was my grandfather. Nothing that you could ever do can make him not love you. Like it was, he was, and there's very few people that exist like that in the world. We were talking about how the most powerful people

that we know that command a room aren't people that are aggressive. They aren't people that are trying. They aren't people that are trying to show how powerful they are. They're actually people who would sit in the back of the room, but when you get a moment with them, somehow that vulnerability and that humility commands respect of every single person that's around them. Absolutely. And the only other person he said, which I know you had on the podcast as well, that wasn't a monk that he's felt that way was with Kobe Bryant.

He said he felt like when he was with Kobe, there was, the room disappeared and the guy was just fully present and everything. But that's an example of somebody who retired and was at peace with everything that he did. Yeah, we also, my experience with him, he never felt like he was above me. He was like, cared about me in the moment. And it felt very

authentic. It wasn't about what's happening around. There was a lot of people around and he was just focused and was kind and compassionate. And it wasn't about like, I know all the answers. It was more a conversation. So yeah, he definitely had that. I don't know if he had that 10 years ago, but I think he's had it after his retirement for sure. Yeah. Yeah, man, there's a lot of, I mean, you don't go through life without having some scars. Everyone's got scars in some sort of way.

And I think it all goes back to the fact that we all want to be loved and we all want to be accepted. And we think that those things that happened in our past are what's getting in the way of us being loved and accepted. But it's almost like the sharing of that to the people who we actually love is the thing that makes us become more loved and accepted. Absolutely. I'm curious, with significant other relationships, has that been a big shift for you since you went out and shared it? Absolutely. Do you feel like you've become more of who you truly are in that? Absolutely. I mean, I still talk to my girlfriend now.

I should tell you I probably have a long way to go. I mean, I think we all do. Yeah, but it's made me, like I never did therapy before, I don't know, eight years ago. And now I'm just such a fan. Like it doesn't make sense to me why I would have a coach in sports to help me excel, but I wouldn't have a coach in relationships to help me improve the quality of my relationships. I'll hire a coach for business, for fitness, for sports, for money, but we learn relationships modeled from our parents. Most of the time, they weren't the best. Some people, rarely do I hear people say,

my parents were amazing. And it was safe, peaceful, there was no arguments. They taught us how to respect ourselves. They taught us how to stand up for ourselves in relationships. They taught us not to get walked all over. Rarely do we get that from our parents. You got that, great.

But most people didn't. They don't teach you it in school. Obviously it's not their job to teach you how to manage relationships. But if we don't get taught these things, how are we supposed to learn it? For sure. So for me, I feel like therapy gives us so many tools to get these things out of our head, the fears, the concerns out of our head, and be able to navigate relationships more. So for me, it's been a game changer to have therapy throughout the years,

coaching to support in intimate relationships. But it always goes back down to, it's never about the other person in a relationship that makes you angry. It's about what have you yet to heal inside of yourself or from past some event that still makes you angry. And it's just rising above all those things. So really, I have learned through my partner, my intimate partners, that they are my greatest teachers to my pain.

And when I can learn to not react and get defensive or angry about something they do or don't do or something they're mad about me or whatever, when I can learn to really fully elevate beyond that, that's when I've learned, oh, I'm starting to heal. elevate beyond that, that's when I learned, oh, I'm starting to heal. It's when I get defensive, reactive, angry, frustrated, controlling, or whatever I might want to feel, something inside of me is yet to heal fully. And so that's where I get to do the work, not blame something on them. Yeah. Hey, let me tell you about my favorite drink that I take first thing in the morning, every single morning. It's called Athletic Greens. It's the very first thing that I do after I get up, go to the bathroom, and brush my teeth is drink Athletic Greens. And in 30 seconds, in just one scoop, I get 75 vitamins, minerals, and whole food source ingredients. And it has everything that a multivitamin has, plus greens, probiotics,

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that you hear. And I don't want to, women hear terrible, girls hear terrible things as well, but I only know from a boy's perspective, you know, of the stuff that you hear. So like, if you look at the traditional view of a man or a boy and what you're supposed to be growing up, what is the type of stuff that you put in the book of what the traditional view is and what we're supposed to be? Strong providers, not crying, you know, dominance, sex magnets, you know, all those things, conquerors, competitive. Yeah, that's what you hear. Accomplish, you know, all those things. Yeah. That's the traditional things, right? Yeah, for sure. And I think that if I would say that It's interesting me because there's a is that there's an interesting that perspective to have with these words like

There's a part of me that that thinks that going through the stuff that I went through is really really good Because it got me to become where I am now But it also got me to a point where I woke up and went wow because you've been to the point I'm sure and where you have you have checked off all the boxes, right? You've had success. You've done the things. You've had millions of views. All the things that you think make you successful

and you think that is what you want. And then you get there and you don't feel any different about yourself. And a lot of cases- I usually feel worse. Yeah, I was going to say, a lot of cases you actually feel like, I think it's the reason why people who win a championship

the very next day is the worst day of their life. They're depressed. Because that one thing that they wanted to become, they had, and they got it. And then this doesn't fill the void in my soul. For me, it was when I ran my Cutco office, all I wanted to be was number one. I got to number one, and then I ran it to the ground because I just hated it at that point. And for you, I've heard you say it was becoming an All-American athlete. Once you finally got it, it was like.

I was angry and mean, like right afterwards, within like an hour later. I remember I was at the dinner table with my parents who were there, my team, the coaches, and I was like probably the worst person to be around. Couple hours after being on the podium, doing something I'd tried so hard to do my whole life, did it, and I didn't know why i wasn't happy what i realized is

that uh there are there are two powerful fuels that we have as humans i was driven by anger to prove people wrong right from the bullying the abuse all these different things i was like i'm gonna make something myself to prove all these moments and situations wrong so that I can feel better then, so I can finally feel like I'm enough. And anger, resentment, frustration, proving is the second most powerful fuel in the world. It will get you to incredible places,

to accomplishments, to achieving these goals as it did for me sports business relationships all this stuff but it left and there was never one time where i felt good about myself after the end results and it wasn't until i hit 30 when i woke up to that and went through the process of actually addressing the sexual trauma starting to heal that process, where I was like, wow, I've been doing this all wrong my entire life. I've been driven to prove people wrong,

to look good, to be right, to feel enough, to feel loved, to feel worthy by other people. When what I need to do is just love myself and use the fuel to serve other people. The fuel should be led by service by growth by contribution and when i started to shift that i vividly remember it i was never able to sleep at night it would take me hours to fall asleep my entire childhood all through college my late 20s until i started to heal the shame of the past it was like i could go sleep in five ten minutes and I can never do that I would try every technique AC sound machines whatever and they can never

fall asleep because I had so much anger in my mind that was assuming me I was like what do I need to do to prove this person wrong I don't need to get a leg up here what strategy and technique do I need to get a move ahead like how can I position myself whatever it was it was a game to prove people wrong. And that fuel worked. The masks we wear as humans work to an extent. But my heart never felt at peace. My mind always felt under distress.

And when I shifted and said, I'm living my life to serve. I'm gonna use my talents, use my gifts to create something of my dreams. And I want to accomplish those goals and dreams, but it's not determined on the result. It's determined on the daily process of service. I tell you what, I sleep like a baby when I'm in that state. Sometimes I'll fall back in a competitive mode or whatever, or like needing to prove. And I'm like, what am I doing? Like, this is just doesn't serve me. It doesn't serve

the mission. It doesn't serve other people. So let me focus on service using my gifts and my talents. And it always works out better even if I don't accomplish the result. So you went from healing it, but then you wrote an entire freaking book on it. So that's, that's, that's a whole other, I mean, that's a massive thing to undertake to not only go through your own healing, which is, I mean, that's all of our journey here on life. And I believe it's just a spiritual journey to go through whatever we need to heal through, right?

But you decided to write a book on it. Was that just a massive undertaking? Because now you have people that are reaching out to you, you have people who are going to be reading this, that you're going to connect your story, their story's have people who are gonna be reading this, that you're gonna connect, their story's gonna connect with your story. What was that process like? I wrote the book on it,

and I remember after I wrote The School of Greatness, New York Times bestseller, all this stuff, getting a lot of attention, people that knew me, my agents, things like this, were like, okay, let's work on the business book. Let's work on the next big book. For whatever reason whatever reason i was just like the only reason this was successful was because i was able to start the process of healing it's because i was able to deal with these emotions and at the time back in 2015 16 17 there was a lot i mean still happening today but i was noticing a

lot of trauma and negative events, shootings, racial tensions, political tensions happening still obviously today. And it was all being caused by men that were leading the charge in the anger, in the attacks, in the domestic violence, on the shootings, on all these things. And I was like, now that I'm learning that this was part of me, like I used to be the angry person that would get defensive. Luckily, I never did anything to cross a boundary of harming someone physically in that level. But I was like, wow, maybe I could have. If I would have held on to this pain for 30 more years, maybe I would have snapped.

For sure. So, not saying any of these acts are okay, and're not okay but understanding from a place of compassion that these men never learned the ability to heal and I'm not saying it's okay and everyone has their responsibility of their actions but I was like this is what matters more to me now than writing some other book about what's the next strategic move for my business right I knew this was gonna take two years of my life and it wasn't going to help me financially it wasn't going to help my business or my brand or

positioning this was how can i show up in service and if one man reads this or one woman reads this and it helps their relationship and helps them understand the men in their life better and it can help them heal then it's worth it for me it was not about the money it's about how can i create something to serve and that really opened me up to like just living from that space where good things will happen to you when you're living in service and not focused on just money yes i want to make a lot of money yes i want to use it as resources to to create more but it's got to be from a place of this is here to serve a higher mission. For me, that's what gives me ultimate fulfillment.

Yeah. Because more and more money, once you've made a lot of money, you're like, okay, just making more doesn't fulfill you as much. It's like, it's cool, it's nice, you can do good things with it, but if that's the driver, I just don't feel as fulfilled as when there's service behind it as well. For sure. A hundred percent. And so you had a lot of people email you after the episode.

Yeah. So now you write an entire book on it. Yeah. So what's the response? What have you learned about people since putting the book out? I've learned that we don't have tools to heal ourselves, especially men. I went on a tour and talked about it. And I remember asking, and I'd have about 50% women in the room and, especially men. I went on a tour and talked about it, and I remember asking,

and I'd have about 50% women in the room and 50% men, and I'd ask this question everywhere around the country. I would say, say there'd be a few hundred people at each event, and I'd say, okay, all the ladies in the room, raise your hand if once a week you get together with a girlfriend or a group of girlfriends, once a week, and you talk about your insecurities, your fears, your doubts, your shame, your vulnerabilities, the problems in your

relationships, raise your hand if you do this once a week. Almost every female in the room said, yeah, once a week I call a girlfriend, I talk to my mom, my sister, whatever it is, I'm in this conversation talking about it. And I said, keep your hands up if you do this every day. And almost everyone left their hands up. Every day we're in conversation talking about it. And I said, keep your hands up if you do this every day. And almost everyone left their hands up. Every day we're in conversation talking about it. I said, okay, thank you, hands down. All the men in the room, raise your hand if once a month you get together with a group of guys or one guy friend,

you talk about your insecurities, your vulnerabilities, your doubt, your shame, all this stuff, your marriage issues. Raise your hands if you do this once a month. There would only be maybe two or three max. And I'd say, are you guys part of a required church group that does this essentially where it's like you create a safe environment where you can go there and there's 50 men talking about these things in a safer, bigger context? And most of them were like, yeah.

And I said, ladies, imagine if you only did this once a month, how would it make you feel? Imagine if you didn't do this ever. Like most of the men in the room never do this with each other. They can go to the game together. They can have a beer or pizza. They can hang out and play sports, whatever, the typical stereotype. But most men don't have one guy friend. The stats say it's almost 50%. I think it's 48% of men say they don't have one male friend they

can open up to fully. So I say to the women, not saying the actions of men are okay. Not saying anything that they do is agreeable when it's hurtful. Not saying any of that is okay. Everyone's responsible for their actions. But just imagine how it would make you feel. Shout out. How would it make you feel? Women would say, I'd go insane. I'd go crazy.

If I could not talk about my feelings, I would explode. And I go, well, it's no wonder we're seeing men explode in different ways throughout the world. Again, it's not okay. Take responsibility for their actions and they should be punished. But we need to start allowing for all humans, men and women, all humans to be able to talk about their feelings in a way where it's not looked down upon. Where it's not looked as weak. Where we can celebrate it, not looked as weak mm-hmm we can celebrate it not shame it and I think the fear for men is that they still feel like they're not celebrated for expressing themselves in a healthy way through therapy the stigma of it

they're not celebrated in general and I feel like men still feel shamed for talking about the things they're not proud of, the things they've gone through. And it took me 25 years until I hit 30 when I started to heal from something that happened from five years old. And it was probably the scariest thing that I'd ever done. It's scary, let's talk about it, if you've never done it before.

So I think we just need to learn, we need to start making it more acceptable and celebrating it encouraging it and i'll and i'll hear this story a lot again i don't want to generalize this but i'll hear this a lot that i'll hear like men will say you know what i'm going to get the courage to talk to my wife and tell my wife how i really feel like i've been having this on my chest my whole life i'm going to go'm gonna show some emotion I'm gonna cry because she never says I'm sensitive she never says I'm opening up she wishes I would open up more and then they do it and I hear this from men a lot that the woman doesn't know how to handle it

right like well no I need you strong in this moment right I'm feeling weak you're not feeling vulnerable I need you to be strong right and so if the man is shamed one time when they try to do this, why would they ever be vulnerable again? They're gonna say okay. I need to get myself together. I need to be strong I can't feel this right now because I need to be there for my family and I get it I'm not saying that's okay either but just the it's just a challenging messy process so I hope we can as Men celebrate other men and as women celebrate the men in their lives on being comfortable and holding that space, allowing them to do it without being uncomfortable.

You've maybe never seen a man do that, and it's going to be uncomfortable until you accept it. Yeah. I think you had Lori Gottlieb on your podcast, right? I had her on mine, and she said a very similar thing where it's that women expect men, women want men to be vulnerable. What you said was so important for men to hear, but also for women who are listening to hear as well, is that women want their men to be vulnerable. But when that vulnerability comes out, they don't know sometimes how to be the strong one. They don't know sometimes how to be the strong one. And so they close off because they don't know how to take this guy who's trying to express

all of their feelings and all of their shit that happened to them in the past possibly, and they close off, which immediately, you can tell when someone closes off, makes men close off even more, and there's that moment. There's no safety there because, you know, you could say masculine and feminine, take those two and take men and women out of it but if a man's normally masculine and woman's

normally feminine a lot of times and then the men comes in and says something that is feminine the woman then is like I don't know how to handle this I don't know how to be the strong one when in reality it's the same thing where it's just like you know women are always like just listen to me yeah just let me express and I don't think I don't think we have that like you're saying we don't have the tools to know how to help somebody through that. But I think what you're saying is so important is to be able to be strong and let somebody go through that. That's it.

Yeah, I'm not shaming either party here. It's just I think we don't have those tools in general. We haven't been taught those tools. For sure. Period. And that's why I think we need to start opening up to them. Otherwise, there's going to be more and more problems. For sure. What are some of the other masks that

men wear through the mask mask? The joker, the know-it-all, the sexual mask. Those are common ones you see. Everyone's got the friend who always tells a joke at a sensitive moment. Right. Because they don't know how to actually just deflection yeah it's like ah let's just make it all like feel a little better right now and who's always telling a joke it's one to gain like attention and to feel loved and worthy and feel enough um and these masks are okay at certain times but when it's becomes your identity and you can't take it off like hey if you're funny all the time great but also you need to be able to flex and be like you know what this is a sensitive moment let me be in this moment and feel this and it's uncomfortable

yeah and not just tell the joke uh the the know-it-all mask it's like there's some smart dudes out there a lot of men in the world are much smarter book-wise than me. They have a lot more of general school intelligence than me. I didn't do well in school. I call myself a wise man. I'm not a book-intelligent man, but I'm a wise human being from the streets or from just life going through different experiences. But there are some men that use the mask of, I know everything. In their relationship or in school or work, I have the answers. I am the smartest. I know everything. There is a use to having knowledge. There is a use to it, but it's how you use the mask. And

if you're using it all the time and it's hurting others, that doesn't work for your intimate relationships. The sexual mask, it's like, it's a lot of men, probably you might have experienced this or know some of the guys growing up. It's like, it was all about how many girls can you hook up with to feel like you're cool, accepted, like you're enough, that you're a real man because you slept with more women.

And that hurts women. That hurts yourself. That hurts women. If that's like your life you know i'm all for dating exploring and all these things but it's that if that becomes your identity it's like i need to be sleeping with more and more and more women all the time to feel loved then that's probably not going to work out the best for you in the end sure so it's learning how to be aware of what is your dominant mask why you you're living that way. And this just takes

time and awareness. It's not easy to look at these things. And that's why usually these are involuntary moments that happen for us to wake up. It's not like, oh, I just want to be conscious today. Things are pretty good, but I want to see how I can improve myself. It's usually when something happens. The triggers. Your dad dies. I go through a breakup. We get in a fight.

You lose your job. Near-death experience. It's usually these involuntary experiences in our life that get us to say, something's not working. I need to figure out what it is. I need to start shifting.

I wish all of us could, on a daily basis, say, what can I do right now? Something's not working. How do I improve this? And this is why I think it's important for us to keep doing what we're doing because we're in this work daily. We're constantly working on growth.

And the people that are listening or consuming are constantly saying, how can I improve as well? That's hard. It's hard to be voluntarily saying, what can I do to just learn and improve and see I can tweak a little bit every single day, not wait for a breakdown to happen. But unfortunately, most of us wait. Yeah. As you're speaking, man, I can think of the whole progression of how it's worked for me, of needing to prove myself. And I remember,

I grew up in sports, all sports, so it's very masculine in a lot of ways, right? And so I remember when I first got into Cutco and I became a manager with it. You played baseball? I played baseball, basketball, and football. So I played all of them. Basketball is my main sport though. And so for me, the thing that was really eye-opening to me is I was about two years in a Cutco and I was managing people and I was running trainings and stuff. My manager says, hey, can you come meet me at Chipotle? I was like, sure.

So we go meet at Chipotle. And he goes, hey, he's very blunt, you know, and that's the way I needed it to be. He goes, I don't know how else to tell you this, but a lot of people don't like you. Wow. And that was the first time I ever even had any idea. People, I thought I was awesome, right? I was like, we're doing, we have a great office. Everything's going well.

He's like, it's because people don't know your heart. I know your heart, because I see you every single day. But you have a wall up that's keeping people from seeing that. And you're actually running a lot of people away. So you're extremely successful now. But if you could open, like break the walls down and open yourself up, you have so many more people.

And so I had another manager who is known as being a really, he was really great at developing women managers in the company. So you look across the entire company, there's women managers, but he was the actual manager that managed more women, brought more women up. So I went to him and I was like, I don't understand what I'm doing. I thought I was good. I'm crushing it. And then he was like, well, you just have to realize it's different. And he's like, so then it took me on this journey of how to interact with women different ways and how I was too aggressive in certain ways and how to work through it. And I thought I worked through it a lot and I definitely got better.

And then there was one moment where one of my friends got pretty drunk. And at the end of the night, whatever I had said to him over years and years and years built up and it came out. And he said it and he said, I don't think that you realize that you're so insecure that all you do is throw little, what he called them was negs, you throw little negs at people all the time. Wow. And what he meant by that was like just little jabs,

little tiny jobs. It wasn't like it used to be where I was known as like the guy who's brash, sharp tongue, all that stuff. But it was just like little jabs. Subtle though. Right. And the phrase I've heard that works perfect with that is, is talking down to people as a poor man's version of self-worth. And I was like, my self-worth is so low that I literally have to cut people down at any moment that I can possibly find to make myself feel better.

Feel better, yeah. Yeah. And for me, that's a journey. Good breakthrough. through. But growing up and that's what men do, right? So I think what's important though is knowing that there's a difference between doing it as a joke and that happens sometimes or doing it because your self-worth is low and realizing that you're afraid to actually let people in. And for me, that was a massive awakening. I mean, the fear to be truly seen is a big fear. For everybody. For everyone. I think for men, it's been conditioned to not, you know, in sports, it's like, don't let them see you in pain.

On the field, it's like, don't show weakness. Don't let them see you if you're hurt. Get back up and act like you're fine. Right. Trick the competition that you're okay. And we're expected to flip the switch in real world after three hours of intense practice. And why would we not carry that pattern into our lives? Trick the competition.

Your family, your girlfriend, guy friends. Don't show them you're weak. It's like we're conditioned to follow through that pattern, unfortunately. And I'm not saying it's right or wrong. It's just like, what is the most efficient way of living our lives? And we got to start supporting each other more.

We got to start celebrating and being people to open up. That's one of the greatest fears, having people see us for who we truly are. Because if people truly knew who we were, man, that fear, if you really knew my darkest secrets, like who I truly am, would you love me?

Would you accept me? That's a fear, man. And I think when you can overcome that, you're not a prisoner to it anymore. And that is powerful. Yeah. It's like running. I would say it's like,

life is like running a marathon. And then when you realize you have these things, it's like you look behind you and go, oh man, I've got a backpack on and I've got 50 pounds of weights in here. And you just start taking things out and things just become easier. Do you feel like after you've let it go and you've worked through it and tried to help other people through it that relationships have gotten easier, business has gotten easier, everything that you do has gotten easier in a way that you don't have to put this, because that's extra energy at all points in time to put up this fake identity and be able to run a business and be able to be in a relationship. Jordan Peterson said something interesting when I interviewed him. He said, you know, you don't want to protect your kids from their vulnerabilities.

You want them to learn how to overcome them by being stronger. And I feel like I've just gotten stronger. The challenges are still there at a new level. I've gotten stronger, wiser. I'm more efficient with my energy, with my emotions, so that I'm not carrying it as much. It doesn't make it necessarily easier all the time. I'm just aware of it, and I don't hold onto it as much.

And so it allows me, but everything is different levels. You know, I was playing at a certain level a year ago, three years ago, five years ago, and there's different opportunities, different pressures, new relationships. And so it's learning at different levels. And I don't know if it's ever going to get, it's easier for sure, but I don't know if it's ever going to be less challenging. You know, it's going to be constantly like learning how to manage and navigate the emotions. With more practice though, I'm definitely getting better.

Yeah. Do you have another book in you? I've got multiple books. in you got multiple books yeah I've been when you're working on now I've been waiting and I feel like now is the time to really get started up and getting the itch so yeah I'm gonna be working on one that's really about overcoming self-doubt because I think doubt is the killer of all dreams and when we can learn to have self-confidence and belief in ourself, even when everyone else doesn't believe us, that's when we have true power. Because I've seen through sports, I don't know if you ever saw this, I used to see some of the most freak athletes on the field and on the court who could do the most unbelievable things, but didn't believe

themselves when game time came around. And I was like, give me some of your skill, please. Give me your talent, your athleticism. You're a freak of nature. But for whatever reason, when the clock started and there was audience and fans and the pressure was on, they couldn't perform. And I was like, what?

You have everything and you can't perform because they didn't learn how to believe in themselves. And the coaches were like, you're the best. Their teammates were like, you're the best. It didn't matter if the whole world believed in them. If they didn't learn how to believe in themselves, they were never able to do it. On the flip side, the good thing is

it doesn't matter if no one believes in you, if you have that inner confidence and belief, you can accomplish what you want. And so I believe doubt is the killer of dreams. And if you want to be able to accomplish your goals, you've got to learn the secret of self-belief. So that's something we're working on. So I'm curious with you then, when you're around, you're at over a thousand episodes, so you've been around some of the most successful, most spiritually woke, I mean,

you've been around every type of person you could possibly be around. Do you notice differences in them at points from when you just go out and you're around the average person, I hate saying that word, average, for people who can't see me, I'm putting it close, but the average person that you're not typically interviewing. Do I notice differences? Yeah

Yes, I noticed that Not that average people don't have this or people that I haven't interviewed don't have this but I noticed that Most of the time that people that are coming on the show are very clear on their mission and their vision. They're very clear. They're not perfect human beings. They make mistakes, but they're very clear on what they want and why they want it. And there's a deeper sense of knowing and a deeper sense of creation from a place of vision, not from a place of, I'm not sure what I'm up to in my life.

Where do I want to go? Why am I here? They have a sense of vision for at least that season of their life that's number one and I think if people were just clear on what they wanted and why they wanted it in general it's not gonna get easier there's gonna be challenges you're gonna need to overcome but that takes away a lot of the guesswork okay I'm want to go there and then I'll figure out how to navigate to get there most people don't know where they want to go mm-hmm that would

be number one number two is in general I just believe they have a lot better habits I don't think there are smarter than average people I don't know they're better I think they know how to navigate time to structure their schedule with habits as the foundation. When we have habits as a foundation, as an athlete, you know this. When you're practicing the same thing over and over before the moment, before the game, before the challenge, you fall back down to your level of practice, to your level of habits. The Navy SEALs talk about this as well. This is what great athletes learn to do. When there's pressure on the line,

you're not gonna automatically rise to something you've never practiced before. You're gonna fall or rise to the thing that you've been practicing, preventing, building up to this. You follow your standards. So the level of habits, the boring stuff day to day, you know, I make my bed in the morning, boring, it's not sexy. But I feel like by doing that year after year, it's building

a positive habit of clean space, clean mind. It's setting me up to building momentum in the morning. It's getting me going. It's like helping the next step. So they have, in general, I think a good foundation of positive habits to support them so when the moment comes, they're more prepared. Simple. And I think the third thing that I think a lot of them have, again not all of them, but I think a lot of them, the theme is they're using their talents, their gifts, their efforts, and whatever it is, sports, business, philosophy, they're using it in the service of trying to inspire or help others in some way, most of them. And I think that's greatness.

When you can figure out what is my vision, where am I going, then there's going to be different seasons of visions of your life. It's not going to have it all figured out when you're seven. There's going to be different seasons of where am I going, what do I want, what do I want this? What am I good at? What am I talented at? What am I not good at? And how can I overcome those insecurities in the process so they become a skill for me? And then how can I go all in on those skills and talents and desires

and be helpful to the people around me for sure whether that's on a scalable mass level or just a community or family level how can i use my skills and talents to be of service to be useful to anyone around me yeah that's interesting man and and to be able to connect with people that that so many people that you've connected with on a deep level the one thing that i've that I remember from the first time we met when we were in Vegas is we were at the Tony Robbins event and we were invited to, and it was myself and my girlfriend, Lauren,

and we were just chatting. And the thing that I love is that you weren't surface level in any sort of way. And you asked a question that literally got everybody to just like stop and think. And the question was, you turned to me and you said, what's the number one thing that you've learned about yourself from being with her?

And I was like, oh shit, in front of her. I don't even know, the pressure's on, but it made me think. And then same thing with Lauren. You asked her the exact same question. And then Pete Vargas came in and then he started talking about, he learned the biggest thing over the past year

where he started to work with Enneagram. And the thing that I love is that you went deep, not even, we could have been surface level the entire night, right? But you went deep immediately. And I think that there's a lot of people who are afraid to go deep in a lot of ways, not realizing that the true connection when you make with somebody is when you're able to have a conversation that can go deep and not be judged in any sort of way. Absolutely. Is that a skill you feel like you've developed over this time of interviewing a lot of people?

Absolutely, yeah. I think the most fascinating moments come from real conversations, not from tell me about what you did or what you're up to or something, or who you are. It's about tell me about who you really are and what are your challenges, what have you overcome lately what are

the things you're most excited about for me that's what connects people and so most people aren't willing to ask the questions to get people to open up in that way because they're afraid to be asked the same thing themselves usually someone say well I don't know you tell me right you know if people are afraid they'll put it back on you. So you've gotta be willing to reveal whatever you wanna know about someone else. And I, through the practice and art of doing it

for the last eight, nine years now, myself, I just become more comfortable revealing anything. Any insecurity, any doubt, any fear, I'm willing to talk about, because I know talking about it gives me power over it. It doesn't consume me, it doesn't stay inside of me, I get it out, I make it less of a scary thing and then I can overcome it. Yeah, do you think that's the number one thing

that you've learned from having the podcast or do you feel like there's something else that's equal to or above that? What's the number one thing you've learned about yourself from having a podcast, from going on this journey? That I can do anything. And I think as a kid, I always dreamed of accomplishing big things,

but I didn't fully believe in myself. I believed, but I was always insecure about it, and I needed other people's approval and acknowledgement to say I was good enough. Now I don't need other people to acknowledge me. It's nice, sure, it's great. It's good to be seen and acknowledged, but I know I can do anything I want,

not because I'm trying to prove anyone wrong, not because I'm angry or competing, but because I'm doing it from place of service And I think when you do something from service from love from inspiration from helping others It just makes it that much easier to do anything you want And it's a lot less pressure You know, I don't need to like again if you don't need someone's approval a lot less pressure. You know, I don't need to like,

again, if you don't need someone's approval, then you're not feeling the pressure, am I doing it right? Are they going to like it? Are they going to love me? Are they going to say it's okay? You did a good job. If you don't need the approval and you're just coming from a place of,

I don't care what someone thinks about me, as long as it helps one person, I succeeded. And I think that's been a big shift. Whereas in the first couple of years of the podcast, I was like, I want to be the best. I remember doing an interview saying, succeeded and I think that's been a big shift whereas in the first couple years of the podcast I Was like I want to be the best I remember doing an interview saying my whole goal in life is to be number one Mm-hmm or whatever I do like I want to be the best at anything I do

And now it's like I want to be my best And anything I do and help as many people as I can And if that is five people then it's five people if it's 20 if it's 20 million whatever okay great but not being the best being my best and that shift of energy is freeing so freeing freeing i want to do what you do i want to i want to acknowledge you for first off putting this out there and doing what you've done. It's incredible to watch what's happened over the past few years. And there's one thing I want to tell you

that I think is beautiful is we have a lot of mutual friends and actually the very first mutual friend, I don't even know if you're aware of, you went to college with, she was my manager, Kim Hellshore, I think. Her name, Kim Pope is her name. Kim Pope, yeah. She was my manager and she used to always talk about how-

What, a cookout? No, she, a company I worked for right before I, as I started the podcast. Yeah, Kim Pope, she's great. The one I quit in order to literally go to do what I'm doing now. Oh, really? Wow. Yeah, but I remember her talking about how great you are. There's so many people that we're mutual friends with, and the one thing that I hear most is that you actually really fucking care about people, like a lot. Yeah.

And I hear that from everybody. And so we don't hear what people say behind our backs, but I want you to know that people are saying a lot of really good stuff behind your back that we're connected with. Thank you. For sure. And I want to ask you my favorite last question.

We're all gonna die one day, you know that. So they say that you die twice. The first time is when you stop breathing, the second time I'm sure you heard is when the last person says your name. So in between the first death. Wait, the first one is when you stop breathing? When you stop breathing.

And the last one is the last time someone says your name. So your legacy is gone. After that moment, the last time someone says your name, you don't exist anymore. All of it's gone. You mean like hundreds of years later? Hopefully. Yeah, yeah. However long your legacy lasts.

Let's hope it's hundreds of years. It's going to last a hundred years. Right. Yeah, however long it lasts. Okay. Between the death and the last time someone says your name, what do you hope people say about you? They showed up, he went after his dreams, and he cared about everyone in his life that he met along the way. Is that your definition of greatness?

My definition of greatness is discovering your unique talents and gifts in the pursuit of your dreams and in that pursuit, making the maximum impact on the people around you. Seems like that's what you're doing. I'm trying. Every day I'm trying.

You're doing well. Thanks. Everybody, Lewis Howes, definitely recommend listening to School of Rigor at his pot nest. Thank you for being here, man.

My man. I appreciate you. Appreciate it, Rob. Thank you. Appreciate it.