The Mismatch - A Christmas Embarrassment, the Thriving Nets, and Mailbag Questions

Episode Date: December 27, 2022

Verno and KOC discuss why the growing rivalry between the Grizzlies and Warriors is good for the NBA (03:42). They also discuss the Celtics' blowout win against the Bucks before moving on to the 76ers, who are riding an eight-game winning streak (16:37). After the Bulls get blown out by the Rockets, the guys debate if it’s time for the Bulls to start tanking to give themselves the best chance to keep their first-round pick for the upcoming draft (27:44). In looking at last night's games, the guys discuss the red-hot Nets and Rudy Gobert’s benching (44:23). The guys go into their mailbag to answer listener questions to end the last episode of 2022 (59:30). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everyone, it's Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Bomber, aka Kevin O'Connor. Wait a minute, you're not Chris Vernon. No, Kevin, sadly, I'm not as cherubic or as raspy as Verno, but it is I, Jay Kyle, man. And folks, basketball has been and continues to be so very good. That's exactly why Kyle and I are hosting a brand new basketball show on a brand new podcast feed, the ringers NBA draft show. We're going to have you covered every week as we go in-depth and deep dive in hopes of answering an ever-important question in the NBA. Who's got next?

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Tuesday from the ringer.com. It's Kevin O'Connor, a. Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Colm, Kevin O'Col, Kevin O'Contin, Kevin O'Contin, Kevin O'Contin, Kevin O'Contin, Kevin O'Chylin, Kevin O'Contin. How are you doing today, man? I'm doing great. We've got a ton of stuff to get to. There were all kinds of games that were going on last night. Hey! Hey! Hey, we're going

We're not skipping Christmas, Chris. What? We're not skipping Christmas. There were games on Christmas? When? Who played? We're not skipping Christmas, Chris. Who played on Christmas? Oh, you know, who were games?

What happened, Chris? All that trash talk from Memphis. There were games that went on? There were games that went on on Christmas. How was your Christmas? In all seriousness. How was it? Terrible?

No, great. Come on. I've got two little kids. One of which... will, if she doesn't, if this wasn't the last year, she believed, she certainly was not going to let anybody on that she didn't believe. She played it out the entire time, the entire time, played it out the entire time. And this is through all the kids at school telling her opposite.

Well, that's because Santa's real. She's the only one who's right. Of course it is. And she had, it was great. It was great. It was great. Santa came and they got all kinds of cool stuff. And that was all good.

And the basketball throughout the day, you know, I mean, we had a ton of family over. So I was kind of watching sporadically throughout the day. And then, of course, I settled in and watched the night game, which was Grizzly's Warriors. And. It's ruined everything. A little big lump of coal. You told me that the Warriors were going to be terrible. That's what you told me.

You had to make it go back like two episodes ago. You told me that. It's got to be ugly. It's going to be gross. You told me they were going to be terrible. And you know what? To your point, I got to be honest with you. I started to get worried after they got beat by like a combined 200 points against those New York

teams. The Knicks demolished them and the Nets demolished them. And I'm like, this is not good. I would much rather have them been like super competitive or maybe even win those games. But after they had gotten humiliated, now all the talk shows, you know, they're all going on. Oh, God. Are they at danger missing the playoffs? What does this mean? You know, for them trying to defend their title and all this stuff. And I'm like, oh, for goodness sake, you are going to catch the grand slam effort of all grand slam effort as if you weren't already, right? Yeah. As if you weren't already because of the way the playoffs went and all of the banter that's

gone on back and forth since you knew this was going to be big. And they played fantastic in that game for sure. I mean, Draymond, you know, an unbelievable effort for Golden State. Clay Thompson, T-Bagging, Dylan Brooks at the end of the game. That was funny. You got to admit that was funny, Chris. Look, that was funny. I, this is so, it's weird to me.

After all the trash talk. You know me. From Brooks and I can't wait to have Clay. I can't wait. You know me. I love all of this. Yes, it's good. So it is appalling to me to constantly see people like,

oh yeah, the Grizzlies, they talk too much for having not won anything. You know what I'm saying? Like, why don't we? We like all of this. You know what I mean? Like, this is what makes this so dramatic and so good. It's all good. Everybody's playing kissy face and exchanging jerseys after every game.

We literally talked about this three weeks ago with the Pelicans' sons thing. And it's like, we need this. This is when it's good. And, you know, obviously it exposes the fact that a lot of people. people don't know what they're talking about at all. It's like, oh, well, these grizzies, they run their mouth. When are they going to beat Golden State? When are they going to do something?

They don't deserve to talk yet. As if they didn't send them home and end their season on their home court. That happened. Can you remind the listeners when that happened? It happened literally two seasons ago. So last season they played in the play. playoffs. With the plan.

The season before, they're in the play in. That was an overtime game, right? In the play in. Yeah. In a play in game, if you win, you go to the playoffs. If you lose, your season is over. And the Grizzlies beat them.

And that's when this all started. Yeah. It's when it all started. But it's like that didn't happen because last year they played in the playoffs and lost four to two. and had their best player injured in game three. So these teams are right to have, you know, sparring with words and all that. It's fun.

It's great for basketball. However, Chris, that was probably the most embarrassing loss of the season. Considering all the talk going into it. Considering the fact that they don't have Stefan Curry, considering the fact Ty Jerome coming off the bench going off, Dante DiVincenzo. They also didn't have wiggins. They didn't have wiggins.

No. It's terrible. And so, like, I think when I watch that game, the main concern that I have comes back to something we talked about a couple weeks ago. It seemed like initially Jaron Jackson Jr. was better at not falling. He had five fouls in that game against the Warriors. And I look back this season in 10 games for Jaron Jackson against likely playoff opponents. Jackson has had four files three times, five files three times, which means he's averaging 3.6 fouls in 20. 23.9 minutes in those 10 games against likely playoff opponents.

That's six fouls per 40 minutes. So in those games that matter, he hasn't looked like a guy that you can trust yet in those heavy minutes. How much of a concern is that for you when it comes to projecting the Grizzlies forward with what they can be at their peak? It's concerning because it's come back. We thought this was done last year.

I think, you know, he'd have foul trouble here, foul trouble there, but generally, I think he only fouled out of two games the entire season, last season. And so Doc kind of passed that, especially because he was right there in the defensive player of the year voting, even this year, he's back on that. And then the only time it really reared was during the playoffs against Minnesota when he had to play center, when he had to play center in the absence of. And it's true that when Adams isn't there and he plays center, it feels like he ends up fouling more. But some of these

fouls were just, they're just goofy. Again, I don't mind if you collect your fouls trying to block shots. But if the fouls are charges and the fouls are grabbing James Wiseman's jersey, and then they let Clay Thompson take the free throws

because Mark Davis and Natalie Sago are absolute ninkum poops that should never officiate a basketball game. for the rest of time. They're just like they're not even like fouls of aggression or fouls of keeping somebody from making a basket. They're goofy.

And so it is a concern. But again, he's still very young player. I mean, the bigger concern was obviously that, you know, you ran Bain out there and he clearly looks like a guy that had missed the last 17 games. Is there any concern? Memphis with him like toe injuries could be tricky.

He's six for six for 26 in his two games, two from 15 from three. Toe injuries can be tough. I think that I think it's probably, you know, once you're off your feet, though, and you're not running every single night, I think that is going to take him some time to get back to being himself. Of course, there's always a concern. I mean, and I don't know if that thing just heals or if it's one of those things that you end up having to get

surgery in the off season. It's a pain tolerance thing until then. But he clearly has not looked like himself at all yet. But we'll see, you never know. He could go and make nine threes and have 30 points tonight against the sons. You never know with him. So I think that that they allowed the whole thing to just implode on them in that Christmas Day game. And, you know, massive congratulations. I think now the Warriors are like 16 and 18. So, I mean, that was huge for them. Gets them two games within 500.

So, I mean, they should be super excited about that. Chris, we talked last week. And you said you didn't want to trade for Seacom if you were even available. Do you feel any differently about the need for a trade to maximize your championship upside in Memphis? They need wings. They don't need big. he's a, he's a wing slash forward type. Yeah, but we need guys that can knock down three.

So you build out around, you build out around Moran with more reliable three-point shooters. So you want a better Dylan Brooks and upgrade over Dylan Brooks. Yes. That's the main thing you want. Yes. Someone better than Zaire Williams. Well, and also, and also behind them, you know what I mean? Those guys aren't going to be able to knock down threes.

They got to be able to knock down threes. That's it. End of story. If you can find guys, I mean, I don't know. We'll see if Danny Green can still knock down threes. He's on the roster. Is there anybody that you have in mind that you would be willing to trade multiple first for, or at least one first? Oh, I told you.

Look, the whole Seacom thing only came up because I covet Ananovi. O.G's not a knockdown guy, though. He's not, you know. He can shoot at a high enough percentage. A high enough percentage. And look, it's a different deal when you're shooting them wide open all the time. And you get wide open threes. a lot of them.

You know, there's a lot of those teams that need that. It's watching through games last night, and it's like, there's so many of these teams that are driving kick, driving kick, driving kick. Man, and if you've got some reliable guys that can knock shots down, so, I mean, that would be the deal. But yeah, no, those are,

I mean, look, I know you goofed about it, but, I mean, it's a terrible game. No way around it. It's a bad game. I don't think it changes anything. I don't think it changes long term, but I mean, it's humbling for sure. They got their comeuppance, as they say. And the idea that people resent the fact that they are so confident that they constantly say they're not scared of playing anybody or scared of anybody is bananas.

And I think most of these idiots are led astray by Clay Thompson, who's at this point just to, an old curmudgeon who's yelling at, he's just holding his fist up in the air. Mad. Chris. That they're even saying that. Okay, let me play devil's advocate for a second here.

I agree. Trash talk is good. I love trash talk. Yeah. However, is there any validity to the fact that they could have some overconfidence in themselves that could hurt themselves in games?

No question. Okay. All right. I'm just curious to be, okay. But it makes it so much more interesting. You know what I mean? Why does John not do the pregame dance with his teammates?

It's all the eye of the beholder. Why does John not do the pregame dance with his teammates? I have no idea. I have no idea. Is he too cool for that? I've never noticed that he doesn't. He doesn't? At least Christmas Day with the clip I saw, I didn't.

Oh, I think he's typically, yeah, he's typically in the mix. They're always going crazy, hooting and hollering. I mean, again, it's all in the eye of the beholder. I mean, look, if Zion came out, tomorrow and said, I'm not scared of anybody. I think we can win the West. You'd literally masturbate to the quote. So give me a break, Kevin.

Just thought of it. Yeah, I know. Just the thought of it. We may have to pause a pod right now. It makes it all interesting and fun. Looking to get more out of this NBA season, well, now's the perfect time to download Fandul, America's number one sportsbook.

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The other games that went on Christmas, they do always have, you have a very big stage on Christmas to the opportunity to make a big impression on people. And there was a lot of, hey, Jason Tatum,

MVP, look at what he just did. He just emasculated Janus on this dunk. This third quarter was like legendary level offense. And Boston got back on

track, Milwaukee looked rough. And they kept putting up that stuff. This is stuff that you don't normally see, which is look at their numbers when Janus is on the court. Like Boston, do you think it's simple as they don't have Middleton, they desperately need Middleton, and it super shows up when they're playing against somebody that's as good as Boston? Or do you think that it was a window into Boston has figured out a better way to make Janice's life hell. I think it's a little bit of both. I mean, we've talked about Chris Middleton and his importance from Milwaukee with what he adds to their offense, but also their defense too.

I mean, like we saw Boston targeting Grayson Allen a lot. It's, I mean, not that a rookie and Marjoran Bochamp is the answer for the bucks, but it is perplexing to me that Bootin Holder continues going to Grayson Allen. When we know already, teams target him, they go at him successfully, and you have this 6'7-long-armed athletic defender who's been playing really well offensively on your bench, waiting for an opportunity. Just a little strange that they don't give him a chance in those games

to help fortify their defense because if you're the bugs, and if you're getting more stops on defense, you're getting more of those transition opportunities and you're not stuck in the mud in your half-court offense, which ultimately, though, brings it back to your original point, though, Chris. Like, I thought it was striking watching that game

how fluid, how crisp Boston's offense looked, and then you look at the bucks, they're slow getting into their sets. When the Celtics are switching, it's slowing down their offensive sets. Even when they're not switching, they're unable to get quality shots, it just felt like Boston was moving so fluidly.

compared to Milwaukee when it came to half-court offense. And you also got to have occurred to like Horford, Grant Williams, Boston did a great job on Janus individually and collectively with their switching. So I think with Chris Middleton, it's a lot

to ask him to be the total answer here for the Bucks. But at the same time, we know how important he is considering his playoff history and the peaks that he can have just going off for your team as an on-ball creator, but also just the spacing he provides and the defense he provides. So he's not the number one answer, but I think for the Bucks,

like he's he's underrated league-wide in terms of his critical importance to what the Bucks can be. You have this massive Tatum game. And then it just seemed like as the day went on, you had Stars being Stars. And this has been a topic that you and I have talked about throughout the year. Tatum was a very good for the NBA. Speaking of Stars being Stars, you have this Philly team who's, now one eight straight, and you have both Embedd and Hardin playing unbelievable basketball, and I went and pulled the last eight games just to see what's been going on. Hardin has averaged 22 and 13 assists. He's good. Embeded almost 36 points a night, 10 rebounds, three and a half

assists. And I guess you could have expected that, you know, these guys would be able to hit their stride and telling you that James Hardin or Joel and Beat are putting up big numbers isn't all that surprising. It's the rest of those guys. It's a reason you and I were so high on the Sixers and what they had done in the offseason because their depth was pitiful last year. And what they were able to do is reinvent that roster with guys that could actually really help them.

and they are still without one of their top three players in Maxi. Tobias Harris has been very good playing his role. I mean, he's only getting you 16 points a game in these last eight, but he's shooting 55% from the field. But DeAnthony Melton, 16 points a game, 47% from three. George Nyang, 40% from three. Hardin's shooting 41% from three. Harris is shooting 38% percent.

from three. All of these games, this is all from the last eight games of the season. And so in these last eight games, these guys have really hit a stride where M.B.'s playing unbelievably. Hardin's got these crazy assist numbers and they figured out that you can get all kinds of open shots. You just stand out there. Can you knock down open threes? Because this is a great place to be if you can knock down open threes with what they've got on the inside. And sure enough, they are. They're all knocking them down. And even Harold's been good for him when he comes in.

I mean, they, this is kind of what we thought we were going to see when we looked at that roster after they put together in the offseason, right? It sure seems like it. And like you said, not having Maxie right now with their guys stepping up. They're not what they will be at their peak with that kind of like, you know, hot and cold, you know, fast and slow style between Hardin and Mesa. Maxi, Maxie just attacking right off the catch with Hardin as his real methodical playmaking style. Those guys are starting to figure it out.

And I think you have to give obviously Joe Al-Lambide the majority of the credit. He's an unbelievable player, still a leading MVP candidate. But also James Hardin, the evolution of his game, no longer a 35 point per game score type. He does have more of his burst back than he did last season. He looks more like himself athletically. even after missing a little bit of time, but he's just changed the approach. It's more of a focus on facilitating.

He's entered that stage of his career where he's toned down the scoring and turned up the playmaking. I think with Philadelphia, he's playing the role that he needs to for them to be at their best, considering the supporting cast he has around him. And as long as Hardin can stay healthy,

this Sixers team will continue to click. True for Embed as well, and it goes without saying. But that harden and bead pick and roll and the shots they were able to create from it. You know, whether a team switches or drops, the dribble handoff actions, those guys can play together. And once Maxie comes back,

they should continue to elevate even more as that'll only bolster their depth. I don't even want to talk about LeBron and the Mavs unless you want to. I mean, obviously, the Mavs threw up. Well, before we move on, though, what do you think about Hardin, though, Chris? What do you think about him? Because, like, we've been on different sides of the fence. of him over the years.

You know, we've always appreciated that at least he's a great score, but what do you think about his evolution? He's changed. He's much different now. He is much different. I think he's been the best version that you could have asked for playing with M.B., you know, what you want from that star, he's not the best player on that team, right? And so can you-

For the first time in his career, he doesn't have to be the best player. And can you accentuate the best play? And that was the struggle early in the season. It felt like it was one or the other would have the big nights, right? And it's like, okay, not tonight. We're going to focus on Joel. And tonight it's going to be hardened. And so he has leveled back.

And that role, to me, is about making him be as good as he could possibly be. And so you've got to give him credit for that, right? that they have figured out a way to play together, which made it all the more perplexing with that story coming out about the offseason and him looking at Houston after his contract comes up in this off season and that, you know, there's word

that he wants to get back to Houston possibly. And it's like, what is going? What? In the middle of an eight-game win streak. Like, why is this, why is this a thing? it was strange timing. Yeah, on Christmas Day. I mean, so like back in May and June,

there were rumblings across the league, and I took it as just, this is just a leverage play, right? That Hardin would look at Houston and New York. This was back in May and June. And I believe Jake Fisher might have something in his story about how, like, this has been lingering for, you know, some amount of months now as a follow up to the Wode's report.

And I personally viewed it based, off my conversations as a pure leverage play, that he was going back to Philly, which he did, he signed the extension. Granted, it's a short-term extension. He could hit free agency. I just don't see why Hardin would leave this situation. This is a great team that he has right now. It's in an amazing situation like we just hit.

He's able to facilitate, make his teammates better, and then when it beads off the floor, he can turn into the score when he needs to, right? like he can toggle between the two. It just feels like the perfect team, the perfect situation for the stage of his career. And also, why would Houston want Hardin? What they're building,

Houston's building a multiple ball handler offense where it's like sometimes you're running the offense through Schengun through the high post, sometimes through Jalen Green, high pick and roll. They got Kevin Porter, they drafted Tai, Tye,

Washington. They're clearly building a team where they have multiple creators. Adding James Hardin to that, like that would be a pure Tillman Fertita move where it's like, we got to start winning games now. Like that's all it would be. I just don't see why Houston, based off the direction they're going and the trajectory

they're on, why they would add James Harden, it makes absolutely zero sense to me why Houston would consider it. The only way, the only way is if they got your boy. Other than that. Victor Wenabana. Other than that, I couldn't see it. I agree. If they got Wemby, then it's like, okay, we're going to accelerate things.

Yes, then it's like you get a star room protector and interior presence, a lob threat for your hardened. Then you get Hardin green back, or yes. I still would want to do it with a young team, though. I mean, you're building something. I actually, I watched them last night. Oh, my God. You would have lost your mind.

You would have absolutely lost your mind. I don't expect that you watched this because why. I did not watch it live, but I caught up on some of it this morning. Well, you shouldn't have. It wasn't worth catching up on. Well, the Bulls were horrible. I love watching the Bulls be bad. I mean, they get a blowing up.

It's good stuff for them to lose these games. I thought Stacey King, that's two dozen games, right? I think Stacey still. I thought he's going to, like, end up running out on the court. Like, Billy Donovan, every time they came down, if you watch this fourth quarter, every time they had Shengoon run to the top, set a screen, these guards would get switched on to Musovich and I mean, it was, they could have scored 98 out of a hundred times on this guy. And he just let it happen over and over. And it was downright torturous to watch.

It happened to this guy. I'm like, what are you? Are you alive over there? And then now it stays like every time it's like, they got to stop switching this. because it's like, and not only this, so then, then when they didn't, and Shengood would run back down, Schengen would run back down, Schengengo was cooking everybody.

Oh, I love Shengo. Oh, he is awesome. He is awesome to watch. There was a, I'm worried, I'm not worried, I think they should blow it up. This is a good thing, that their body language is bad. In that third quarter, I caught up with a lot of the second half this morning,

Chris, before our pod. And Vooch had this play. So the Bulls got a stop. This was early in the third quarter. The Bulls get a stop, one of the few stops they got. Vouch runs the floor hard, ahead of the defense, raises his hand, calling for the pass for a wide open layup. And Patrick Williams misses him completely. And it kicks it out to DeRosen, who finds, I think, Goren Drogich in the corner for a three that he misses.

And Vooch, after the play, Rockets rebound the ball. he stands underneath the basket with his arms just to his side, doesn't even move. Rockets end up scoring in transition. Billy Donovan calls a timeout. Rockets have the lead and they never give it up. And it was just a play that's stuck in my mind as I caught up in that second half. Like you said, boots getting shredded.

Nobody getting stopped, stopping penetration on the Chicago side. But their body language is bad. This team doesn't have chemistry. There's a lack of effort and care and togetherness. they got to make changes whether it's some desperate sad attempt to lose in the first round or whether it's the smart move

which is to trade away these veterans before they hit free agency and blow it up and tank and try to gamble and get a tie draft pick that Lonzo thing just killed him rhythm oh I know Lonzo is such a difference maker the energy on defense

if they had him the connectivity on offense like the boom like the ball just boop like pings around when he's on the court and then look watching that last night they're watching

Busavich just like, I mean, just turn into a traffic cone every single time. I mean, they're taking turns assaulting this guy. I'm thinking of myself,

you know, and his contract's up, they'll end up moving him, I'm sure. That trade, I mean, that's got to go on the short list. As, look,

I know you're saying, Tank, I almost, if I'm there, if I'm the guys running things, I'd almost not do it as to just not allow that trade to get any worse.

Because God forbid, I lose a ton of games, try to get up in the top four, don't end up getting the fifth pick, six pick in the draft. And now that has turned into Wendell Carter, Auto Porter, Franz Wagner, and whoever is drafted six. I mean, that is unbelievable. It's a sunk cost, though. I mean, like, you lost the trade. Dude, it's so bad.

To me, this is a way to try to salvage it, at least a little bit. Let's say the Bulls land in the top four this year. Next year, it's only top three protected. So, like, you're going to lose the pick either this year or next year unless you land in the top three again next year. So I just think if you're the Bulls, what do you're trying for the playoffs for now? You stink. Oh, they stink.

At best, you make the play in. No question. And you lose the play in. maybe let's say you win the plan, then you just get smacked in the first round by Boston or Philly or Milwaukee or whoever it is, Cleveland. You just get punked. This team

has nothing going for it. You went for it, you tried to accelerate the rebuild. I didn't hate the Vouch trade at all. I thought it like considering the circumstances with Levine, you're betting on Patrick Williams. Patrick Williams hasn't gotten much better at all. It just hasn't worked. Lanzo

you sign him, he gets hurt. It just hasn't worked out. So it's time to pull the plug. Do you feel differently than you did a couple weeks ago when we talked about this? I just don't know, look, because of that situation with the giving up of the pick and the flattening of the odds now, that's where I would recoil. That's all. That's how I feel. Oh, I mean, right now, just to put numbers on it, Chris, real quick, they're tied with the eighth worst record. Okay.

Right now, right now they have a 23.1% chance. of moving into the top four. They are only a game and a half back from the fifth worst record, which is a 39.9% chance of moving into the top four. Are those odds amazing at keeping your pick? No. Are they better than, you know,

8% of having the 11th worst record or 5% of the 13th worst record? Yes, they are dramatically better at keeping your pick this year and landing a potential franchise-changing prospect in Victor Wenbenyama or Scoot Henderson or Amen Thompson. Like there's guys in this draft

I don't think that has to be... I don't think that has to be the way I change the trajectory of my team. We always talk about this, Kevin. It's like, well, then who are you going to get? What are you going to do? And these names just come up. Yeah, but you're going to lose the pick if it's not top four. And then next year you hope you get the guy who changes your team?

They don't have a pick. No, but the guy that changes your team might be somebody that's out there available that you trade for. Yeah, they don't have the assets. They don't have the assets. They don't have the young talent. What do you mean? They don't have the assets. Yeah.

What do you mean? Jack Levine, they've got to Margaro. I mean, they got players. But the guy who can change your franchise, you're talking trading for a young guy? How many guys truly change franchises that are drafted? I want to make sure I'm understanding you're saying trading Levine for a younger guy. Well, no, I'm saying you never know who ends up coming available. And maybe something fits another team, right?

Yeah, but if they're trading a veteran player, well, let's just say, I don't know. We never know, Kev. Let's just say Tray Young becomes available. Let's just say he does. Okay. The Hawks are probably not treating Tray Young for Zach Levine. They're probably trading Tray Young for a draft picks paste baggage. That's the way the majority of those star trades go is stars for picks and young players,

not stars for like B level stars or C level stars. I mean, typically, not always, but a lot of the time. There are these guys out there, Trey Young. Just since the season started. You want to trade for Kat? That's who you want to build your team around? No, no, no. I'm saying, Tray Young, Cat, DeRosen, Levine, Seacom, Van Vleet.

These are all names that we've talked about over the course of the past. Three weeks, and you never know who could be next. 40% chance of getting Scoot Henderson or Victor Webbenyama or one of those guys. It's the losing of the pick that I can't take. If I'm not losing my pick. You're going to lose it, though. You're going to lose a pick. I'm saying for this year, if I'm going to, if I've got a 40,

38% chance, and that's if I get in the bottom three records, which I'm not going to get. No, you're not going to get that high. You're like, at best, if you're the Bulls, at best, you're thinking fifth worst odds, which is a 39.9% chance right now. So worse than a coin flip. Yeah, it's, yeah. It's slightly better than 40% of the rate. So, I mean, Kevin, if I told you like, hey, here, I'm going to give you two envelopes. One's got a million dollars, the other one, you're going to be in poverty for five years.

Do you take the deal? Yeah, Victor Webben, you. on the other side of it. No, no. If I, I got a million bucks in poverty for five years. Yeah, but this, this isn't like an equivalent of their situation at all. Why not? It's just not.

You're talking about them breaking the whole thing down. Their situation is possibly poverty or poverty. Like, like they are in poverty right now and they're paying a lot of money for it. They're not in poverty right now. Yes, they are. They stay. You just watch the guts, you just watch boots get shredded, pick and roll after pick and roll. It was terrible.

Switch after switch. You watched Levine and DeRosen not stop anybody on the program. You watched Assoon Moon not be able to stop anybody. Look. What are we even doing here if you're the bowl? What do we do? What are we doing? The answer.

Victor Webbenyama is on the other side of, if you get lucky. Screw Henderson is out there. Chris, I think you'll feel differently. The answer does not always have to be become terrible. The answer can be take our assets and trade them for things that are better fits than what we've got. Yeah, good luck. The hardest thing to do is get good players.

And you've got some good players there. It just doesn't fit. Why would it not work if you got somebody that's better than Boosevic as a big guy? Get another guy that is. Look, when you are making trades. I want to know who. Look, like, if you're reviewing the trade market right now, there's not a lot of guys

that project to be available. And the guys who might become available, a cat, a Trey Young if he gets unhappy. Are those really the guys that you want to mortgage your entire future over to build around? The answer is no. At least for me, maybe if you

feel differently, I don't want to build around, Cat. I used to like Cat. I don't like Cat anymore. I wouldn't want to give four first round draftics for Cat anymore. Trey Young, I don't think it's a player you'll ever win a championship with. And that's all I about is winning a title. To me, Scoot Henderson has a chance to become one of the best point cards in all of basketball.

Victor Wenyama has a chance to become one of the greatest players in basketball history if he just stays healthy. Amman Thompson has franchise changing potential. That's three guys, at least at the top of the drafter you feel really good about. And maybe they end up, you know, losing the pick at five, losing the pick at six, and it doesn't work out, and it looks even worse than an argument. So then what? And then the, oh, well, oh, well.

Oh, well. Oh, well. At least we have future assets, other future first-round draft picks, cap flexibility for our older players in their 30s. At least we have a direction. Right now, you're just in the middle, twiddling your thumbs, watching this team lose and get shredded. That's nothing.

This is poverty right now being stuck in the middle. At least if you're losing, you have a direction. And then you gave up the pick. It's gone, and you can enter next year. The deal's done. It's over with. And next year, you go in with a direction. Haven't it being young?

Do these teams gone from the middle, though? The ones that you think are good? Haven't they all gone from the middle? They haven't gone from tanking teams to becoming, to becoming what they are? No, I'm not saying. What I'm, The Pelicans were in the middle, right?

Chris, I'm not saying they need to be horrific. They don't need to be processed Sixers. I'm just saying they should trade their older upcoming free agents. That's it. De Rosen. Booch. And then maybe Levine, if an offer. strong enough.

Yeah, and I am just keep trying to stay good. What does it happen? You got lucky in the draft with drama rants because you moved up to two. You were like eighth worst record and you moved up to two. I mean, the Pelicans got lucky too.

Pelicans got lucky too with Zion. Exactly, but that's what I'm saying. Making the play in would be a horrible result. Not making the play in is what all I'm saying, I'm not saying they need to try to be the worst team in basketball

in the rest of the season, just don't make the playing. Have like the at worst, like the seventh, eighth or ninth worst record, moving in the top four. If you get the fifth worst record, unbelievable. But like I'm not saying they need a bottom out

to be the worst team in basketball. Just trade your upcoming free agent veterans. Right now they're what? They're a game out. A game out. That's it. They're a game out of the playing and they're a game out of the fifth worst record.

Yep. Right now, Chicago, in Washington are the two teams in the east that should be trying to not make the playing right now? In Orlando, too. Like, they're somehow right there. If I'm losing my pick, if it's not top four, I just can't play the tank. Yeah. That's all.

Well, I mean, if you lose your pick, that means you have next year's pick, though. This year's pick is the most valuable asset the Bulls will have. If you look at all of their assets over the next seven years, the top four protected pick this year is their most valuable asset. And the more games they win, the more that depreciates in value. Keeping that pick is of the utmost importance for Chicago, in my opinion, when it comes to building this team forward. If you lose it, all right, whatever.

So what, you lose Cam Whitmore. You lose Osir Thompson. And maybe that ends up being an awesome player. And it hurts even more than you traded with Wendell Carter and Franz Wagner and that guy for Nicola Vucovich, but the deal's over with, then at least you have a direction. You're going to lose the pick anyway unless you land in the top four, whether it's 10.

You're saying, Chris, it doesn't matter. You can win from the middle. You're right. Maybe the magic draft an unbelievable player with the 15th pick or the 12th pick or the ninth pick instead of five. It's possible the bus goes five. They're going to lose their pick if it's not in the top four. They should be moving their veterans in maximizing their odds of missing the plan.

and hopefully increasing their lottery odds. That to me is a clear direction for the Bulls. I feel that way more than I do, like than any other team, more than I feel that way with the Wizards, that any other team, Chicago should be doing that. So Wizards gone the wrong way very, very quickly. Yes, they have. To say the least.

Other teams that we need to get to. So I mentioned that I was watching that Houston-Chicago game last night. I flipped to that one after I was done watching Cleveland, Brooklyn. And Kevin, let me tell you. It's the first time that I've watched and I thought this team is not outside of the top four that we've been talking about. Boston, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Philadelphia, you know, that we kind of separated themselves. And it's really a big five.

Yes. There is a separation after the fifth, right? Because that's when you get to the Knicks and the Hawks and the Pacers and the Heat and the Toronto. The young teams, the underwhelming teams. And he may be able to get up there, right? Yeah, I don't think so. They could be, they're still dangerous, more so than the other ones that I just mentioned. Yes, fair, because of the upside of Butler, to your point from a couple weeks ago.

Yeah, Brooklyn's three. As of right now, and I watched that entire game, Garland was absolutely unbelievable. I mean, unbelievable to watch him. He had, I think, 46 in the game. It was not a great Donovan game, even though defensively, this guy is giving max effort every possession. It's because Ben Simmons swalled him up.

Ben Simmons did a really good job on defense. Great defense on Janus last week, and then great defense on Donovan Mitchell last night. It's a lot more like himself. Oh, totally. Like, he's the block he had in the first half, too, at first quarter. I think that one was on Garland.

Let me tell you something. Keves Kev's got going cut that thing to one and they got this 18 to 2 run dropped on their head where I'm sitting there

watching TV like hold the phone you mean I'm talking Kev stops gang rebound fly down the court these are just pull up in transition

stop and pop threes Durant then Kyrie then Kyrie, then, oh, I'm going to do it again. Now I flip it over to T.J. Warren, who was a bucket last night. T.J. Warren looked good. God, they ain't even, it ain't meant Joe Harris and Seth Curry out there knocking these down. It's like these other guys that are not going to down. Wadhanabi, who's shot fireballs all season long.

They looked devastating, offensively. And this was like a big test. yeah, this windstreaks been nice. They've gotten going. Let's see what happens. Cleveland had the best home record in the lead. And they also got a grand slam effort out of Garland against them. And it just, like, I figured maybe the bigs would be a big problem for Brooklyn with Allen with Mowgli.

And they are really doing it as a collective. and you see Durant barking at them about defense and about where to be, you see them gang rebounding to make up for lack of size. Claxton is in there fighting a little bit. And then they, man, when they get out on the break, they just, when those two are going like they were last night, good luck. We talked about it last week, Chris, right? Like the defensive combination with Durant and Claxton,

add Ben Simmons onto that with a trio. They're passing the test. What was it? Last Tuesdays show, I think we talked about, or maybe it was last Friday. We talked about Valam, Milwaukee coming up, then Cleveland. These are the real test.

I mean, they win by 18 against the Bucks. They lead by a ton of points, the majority of the game over Cleveland, and bottle up Donovan Mitchell. They're looking like a more complete team. I mean, KD is a, clear MVP candidate. Nick Claxton is an

all-D candidate. Kyrie is playing unbelievable basketball on offense right now. Ben Simmons is playing excellent on defense. But then the supporting pieces, Royce O'Neill is a 3-and-D guy. Watanabi, like you said,

Chris, just shooting fireballs from behind the arc. You got Patty Mills coming off your bench, who's a solid player. You know, Curry doesn't play in that game, but Curry is a bucket getter. And then T.J. Warren, 23 points last night. Yeah. I mean, T.J.

Bobble T.J. last night. He's been really good, man. Like, they're bringing him into ball screens with K.D. When they share the floor together, first quarter, he had a bucket against Kevin Love, you know, kind of flaring out from that ball screen. Too quick for him. And then later he gets to switch on Darius Garland, posted him up, got an Ann one, scoring on Mobley in the fourth quarter. I mean, like, scoring against great. defensive players, smaller guys,

slower-footed guys, he's just a match-up issue, and then the way they can stagger Durant and Warren, he provides some of that shot creation and playmaking as a on-ball guy when Durant's off the floor. They just feel like a far more complete

team right now where you project their top eight, their top nine with Harris and Curry and all the guys they have when they're fully healthy. Maybe they need one more, big, like a beefy big for like a potential Embed series or against, you know, a Janus. But at the same time, like, we just saw them play really well against Janus last Friday with Ben Simmons and Nick Clackson and Kevin Durant.

Maybe they actually don't need that. And the secret sauce is the versatility that they have with Nick Claxton and Durant in that front core. Because Katie is, like, we can't say it enough, man. Like we talked about last week with his ISO defense, the team defense. Unbelievable. I don't know, I don't know how to rank the MVP's up the top of my head right here, right? Like, but Katie's there in the top five for damn sure. And he deserves, he deserves, like every bit as much, you know, of respect from voters as a Yokic or a Tatum or is in a beat,

despite what happened over the summer with the trade demand. That is irrelevant to what's happened during the NBA season. Totally irrelevant. He has been absolutely sensational for the Brooklyn Nets. people are going to lose friends over this MVP this year. Dude, like there's so many candidates. Durant, Yokic, M.B. Tatum. And I didn't even mention Janus.

Yeah, no kidding, right? I mean, it is. Oh, you didn't, one name you didn't mention, not that, like, he's at the level of some of those guys, but Luca, the numbers he's putting up. I know. Dragging that Mavs team right now. Him and Christian Wood together.

Crazy. It's crazy. there's so many good ones. Even just Christmas, you're watching, you're like, oh, wow. And B, look at these numbers, averaging like 36 and 10, whatever. This guy's got a chance at MVP. And then you watch Jason Tatum, and you're like, oh, my God, Jason Tatum's the MVP. And then if you stayed up late enough, you're like, how can they not give it to Yokic for a third year in a row?

Guy had 41, 15, and 15. Unbelievable. It's crazy. It's crazy to, you know. You know, and yeah, all of them, just having these crazy, unbelievable seasons thus far this year. But the nets are, they're for real. They are for real. And this is not going away anytime soon.

I also flipped over and I watched the end of Miami versus Minnesota. And Minnesota had a chance at the end of the game. and fumbled the inbound and didn't even get a shot off at the end of the game which why that ball has to get to Edwards I'm sorry it has to I don't know why they're throwing the ball

into DeAngelo Russell in the first place but whatever that's neither here to there they got a move for Russell it was a brutal brutal loss for Minnesota because there was no Jimmy Butler and there's no BAM out of bio and their schedule coming up is awful.

They got crushed by Orlando Robinson. Orlando Robinson. Rudy O'Berr got crushed by Orlando Robinson specifically, too. Out hustling, out-muscling. That's why Gober got benched in that fourth quarter. Well, and the other thing, Nas Reid has been so good for them. Yeah.

And Nasreed was good again last night. I mean, he's a good player. Super productive. I think if I'm being extreme here when it comes to, you know, trade machine, they get to move D-Lo and Kat. That's what I'd be looking to do if I'm Minnesota.

Because you're not going to move Gobert. There's just no way you move him for the money. You're not going to get anything of value back at this point. Like that might go down. Hey, why you talk to Chicago? Isn't that another team that we were talked about with Gobert? Yeah, right. Gober was a team that, you know.

Or Chicago was? Chicago did have interest in Gobert. Yes. So if everybody hates that. their own guys. Let's just flip it around. I think Gobert

Naz-Reed is the center rotation for Minnesota. Well, they said, you know, John Krasinski, who is as good as it gets covering teams. Terrific.

He wrote this long Gobert piece today that was fascinating to read. It was a first time that I think, you know, because now you're this

far into the season and you see kind of what happened last night. It's the first time the subject was broached. And it's not a 100% sure thing, but it's worth monitoring where he's writing what everybody's thinking,

which is, yo, did we just get the booby prize on this? Like, did we just get a guy who's not going to be that guy that he was in Utah for so many years?

Like past his prime? Yeah, like it's just... 30 years old, a lot of miles on his place. Yeah, as he turned into a pumpkin. Is he done being dominant? You know? Because if he's done being...

dominant at what he does well, then you've got $146 million of regret. The blocks per game are weird with Gobert. He's averaging his lowest his rookie year. It's weird because statistically, if you look at the second spectrum tracking data, he's still

dominant defending pick and rolls. He's still dominant defending around the basket when it comes to looking at opponent field goal percentage versus. expected field goal percentage. Like the numbers are still there. It's just he's not blocking shots as often. Like last night, you know, Orlando Robinson

beating him to offensive board opportunities. Like, it was not a good game for Rudy. I wonder when it comes to like anecdotal moments like that when you're watching games, right? Not when you put aside the numbers, right? Forget about him for a moment. When you're watching games and you see Orlando Robinson do that, part of me wonders is he,

is he hurt? Is he fatigued from playing for the French national team this summer? Is this just, you know, age, 30 years old, a ton of miles on his body, heavy minutes every year, super durable for years in Utah. I mean, what is it? Because nights like what happened last night cannot happen for Rudy O'Barre to have any value to Minnesota. That's why Chris Finch was right to bench him. Nas read was better in that game. I mean, I've been of the opinion for many years. The whole thing in Utah was built around him, staying near the basket, and everything funneled into him, right?

And there was a comfortability with that. You see him, like, running out to the perimeter and stuff and them trying to, you know, play it like they got five defenders. They got one guy that just needs to be standing there. That's how it works for him. For better or for worse, that drop coverage thing. He still is dropping all the time when he's picking roll, though. Drop him back to the basket.

and being mega active, because the activity level is not the same either. You know what I mean? And the other thing is you've got to be able to dominate when you're going up against a bunch of little dudes. I mean, it wasn't even just Robinson, their whole front line. Because it was Struce and then who was the other one?

Because Jimmy and Bam were out, Caleb Martin. Like, you just got to lay waste to that. You're by far the biggest dude out there. You got to kill everybody. You know, you're little. He should be doing the too little thing. Too little. And it's just, and that was the first time where I think that a lot of T. Wolves fans and media were like, hold on now.

Like, we're not down, you know what I mean? It's one thing against some of these other teams, but he's not dominating these guys. So what's going on here? This is Orlando Robinson. This isn't what we signed up for. And to be clear, though, like it's like it was in Utah, it's still unfair to pin all the blame on Rudy Gobert. Edwards last night with eight turnovers, six for Russell. Russell is not the player for a back court with Anthony Edwards.

And Anthony Edwards still has growing to do himself, as we talked about last week with his uptick and pick and roll. He's still getting a heavy dose of pick and roll, which is good. Like, the fit is just not good. right now. And I think part of that is because, at a minimum, they need to be looking to move DeLo, which I believe they are, and they will try to. Cat is going to be the really interesting question whenever he returns. Like, can they at all make that work with the Twin Towers Go Barron Cat? It looked terrible earlier in their season with Cat missing time and training camp,

you know, nodded as full abilities. Can they make that work? It looked even worse defensively. Like, there were so many plays earlier in the year where, like, in transition both Kat and Gobert would do what the center is supposed to do dropping towards the paint and then like three point shooters would be left wide over behind the arc when it was actually Katz's responsibility

to go out to the perimeter. I just all the time miss this feels like it'll probably end up going down as a lost season from Minnesota. I just fails to see how they would be able to make it work with whenever cat comes back. It's just it sucks.

It sucks. Like that might end up the worst trade in the last couple of decades. And you know how I felt. I felt they were not far off. I really did. I felt like they were not far off. I felt they were further away than you did, which is why I think they made the deal to add a defensive presence and go bear.

Another element on offense. And that Edwards is something to build around, buddy. He is something to build around. And they try to speed it up. A lot of teams do. He's not there yet, though, Chris. A lot of teams do. They try to speed it up.

Yeah, but I mean, I saw that guy in playoffs. I mean, he's already, he's built for it. He's a guy that could be the best player on a title team. And man, when he locks down defensively, he is formidable too. Special talent. He's still immature, for sure. And he's not going to be an every-night guy. But, I mean, this guy is a future superstar in this league for a league.

long, long time. Do we both agree on trading DeLoh? I mean, look, I would have very little to no argument to tell you that you need to keep DeAngelo Russell. How about Kat? I mean, I think Kat, much like the Nasree thing, I thought, I actually don't think that's a terrible fit with Edwards. and I think it's actually a good fit with Edwards that's the kind of thing you want with him. So you'd be looking to move.

A five that can space out like that. Do you have enough interior defense with a cat, Nasreid, front court? Let's just say you're able to trade Gobert. Let's just say you are. I mean, again, I... Jared Vanderbilt Walker Custler

would be looking pretty good right now in Minnesota, right? Enough when... Enough when I can be as good as I can offensively. you know, when it all comes to fruition. I understand, yeah. Yeah. So you'd be looking to flip Gobert then.

If you're at the GM in Minnesota. Yeah, I don't think you can move it, though. I just don't know who would want them. You call Chicago. All right, let's get to a couple of these questions because we asked some people, this is our last show of the year for 2022. We're certainly very appreciative to all of you that listen to do us on a regular basis. I'll knock out a couple of these questions, the best ones that we got.

I think we're going to have the same answer for this first one. Who is the best trash talker on the court you've ever seen? Kevin Garnett? Yeah. Kevin Garnett? I don't even think that's close. Kevin Garnett is... That's got to be Kevin Garnett.

By far. I mean, he was loud, too. And, Rashid Wiles is pretty great. I mean, Rashid Wiley's... Look, you have a legacy when everybody after a, you know, a foul that people don't think was a foul. Say who the question's from. That was from Daniel. That's from Daniel.

Daniel. Yeah. I think we both agree on Garnett. Let's see. It's from Matthew. Kevin, if you and Chris could own a sports franchise outside of your hometown teams, what would you choose? What are the California teams for me? I mean, I thought about this with the whole Phoenix thing last week with that 42-year-old guy buying it.

that made me feel like a failure. I'm kidding. I don't think I would like owning a team. Really? I'd love to own a team. That'd be so cool. I don't think I'd be able to be hands-off. I would not be hands-off.

I'd be a hands-on owner. I know. And almost never is that good. Right? So, I mean, I guess it would be fun for me. Well, you also have. Jerry Jones is a GM slash. Yeah, but I mean, people say Jerry Jones.

People say Daniel Snyder. People say, I mean, Mark Cuban's won a title to his credit, right? Yeah, I think I would want to be like really involved. And so. So what? And I don't know if I've got the patience for it. Sometimes you really need to have patience. And I don't know if I've got the patience for it.

But anyway, I definitely have the patience for it. I do. Outside of my... Oh, you definitely have the patience. Shut the hell up. A team loses four games and you want to set their franchise back 10 years. That's a hyperbolic statement. You have patience.

I have complete patience. I totally do. Shut up. You underrated. You way underrated. My patience is one of my best attributes. You overrated. Right.

Who would I? Sound like such a married couple. I know. Who would I want to buy? Not my hometown team. Maybe like a hockey team or something like that. Hockey team. Yeah, I think that.

I have zero interest and owner of the hockey team. Something that would be like or give me the billion dollars or whatever they're worth. You know, like a hockey team or like a I would like I guess if I was going to own like a NBA team, Miami. I think I love to own an NFL team more than an NBA team. An NFL team would be kind of cool to own. Yeah, I only got the 16 games. The huge arena, less games. Yeah, okay.

But I wanted to be a place where people like care, really love it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I feel you. And that's very hard to get that and the weather thing going. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right? Because the weather, it's almost like if you got the good weather, you're not going to get the awesome fans. Dallas and Phoenix, probably. would be the best.

Phoenix would be a good one. Yeah. I mean, look, the Lakers have great teams. How about the Sonics? That'd be a cool team now. Bringing the team back to Seattle. Oh, God, it rains all the time.

I know, but it'd be cool to own the Sonics. Yeah, it'd be cool to own it if I could live somewhere else. How about the Vegas team? I would lose so much money. So fast. You can't, you know. I've never gambled a dollar in Vegas. That's incredible.

I know. I'm not tempted. The last night part of it also is this, Chris. Like, I've gambled in the past when I was following the NFL far more closely than I do now. But, like, I can't, I could gamble on NBA games, but I can't do awards because I'm a voter. I can't do any of that. But that's like, those are the types of things that, like, I would, in the past, I'd have interest, you know? I love it all.

You love it all, like doing game lines and old player props. I love cards. I love machines. I think if it were legal in California, I'd be more likely to do like stuff like that, but it's not. Yeah, I mean, look. If I could actually use the Fandual app, you know what I mean?

I'm just doing it. I'm just, oh God, I'm on it constantly. It's all legal in Tennessee. Yeah. So football games, like I said, yes, all the time. But like, when I'm on Vegas, like all those table games, machines, everything. Yeah, I just want to play everything. Yeah. I mean, the app legitimately, like, I've played around with it, like, in the states where you're able to, like in Vegas.

It is unbelievably easy. Oh, yeah. If we're in California, I'd be more likely to do bets like that on a day to day. I can't believe it's not. Hopefully someday. All right. Scott said, for both of you, where do you see your careers in five years? If you could have any job with India.

Year 12 of this match? Yeah, year 12. Oh my God. I know, me too. Yeah. I mean. I hope we're celebrating 30 someday. I do a, you know, I do a local show and I do a, and I do this with Kevin every week.

And I would hope I'd be doing both in five years. That's what I'd, yeah. Me too. I'd hope I'd be doing both in five years. I don't, like, I don't sit around wishing I was doing something else. I'm very, very, not to be savvy about this, but I'm very lucky to get to do what I do and I could do this forever, truly, truly. I could do this.

I mean, this would be, it's a great job that I love doing, that I, I had, not to get too in depth, but I know you, you and I are the same page because of our family experiences in some ways, right? And I think about it a lot. And I know you've talked to me about your dad, the job he did. And my dad was like my best friend.

We went to games and stuff all the time, whatever. But my dad was like the guy that was gone by the time I woke up in the morning and he was exhausted when he got home from stress every afternoon. And it worked in the corporate world for 35 years. And that's like what I saw. and I never felt like my dad was excited to go to work or he was like, you know what I mean? Like, I think he loved the company worked for until the end. But I also don't think that it was, I think it was a means to provide for the family. And that's what he did.

And that's how he grew up was you are you are supposed to provide for the family. And he gave me and my sister and my mom, you know, great. life, but I also never wanted that. I looked at him and said, I don't want, I don't want to be stressed out like that. I don't want to be tired. I don't want to feel that pressure that he feels all the time. And so I think that leads a lot to the gratefulness that I feel on a regular basis with the ability to spend time with my kids while they're young and also do. jobs that I love because I kind of

I saw parents that worked like crazy both my mom and my dad to provide for us and now that I've gotten these jobs as time is going on I'm very grateful for them for sure and so yeah

I'd keep on doing it I feel the same way Chris I mean I'm I'm 32 you know I'm very thankful to be doing this right now, and I hope I'm able to be doing this in my 60s and 70s and have a career that I love. Like my mom, I was talking to her yesterday, because I'm on vacation this week, technically, like I'm, you know, using some days to end the year. I'm still doing the pod today. Yesterday, I was working on some NBA draft guide profiles. My mom's like, Kevin, you don't have to do any work this week. And I said to her, I like doing this.

Yeah. I enjoy doing this. Like, this is something I'd want to be studying these guys anyway. I enjoy it. She's like, okay, you know, she's like, you're right, like I know,

right? It always was, you know, back in the day before I was ever working in sports media when I was getting paid zero bucks per month

from SB Nation to do stuff like at Celtics blog and all that. Like, it was always enjoyed it. I was like doing it. Yep. So I'm,

I'm beyond thankful to have a job. Pretty boring answer for both of us, huh? Yeah. I hope we're doing the same thing. Yeah, I know, right?

You try to hold on to these jobs as long as you can. I really enjoy it And I love doing it Every week with you, Chris Every Tuesday, Friday It was cool You know, when we first got connected

In September, October of 2016 15, right? 2016, 2016, 2016. 16. 2016. And it's hard to believe it's been that long. It really is hard to believe it's been that long

And then it turned out twice a week In our own feed, I hope it keeps on going, man. I love doing it with you. Let's see. When it comes, this is from Nate. Oh, I don't like these ones, Kev.

When it comes to starting a career as a sports media member, especially when creating and producing podcast, what is the best advice we have? We appreciate your insights on the league and life. Thanks for a great 2020. You got to find your own, your own lame, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, I thought this was going to talk about getting into the media

because I just, I get those questions all the time. And it's just, I'm old now, man. the way I did it is not the way I would tell someone to do it now. So I'm glad this is just specifically about podcast. Yes. Best advice I got was be there. So be it as many possible things that you can and talk to as many people as you can. Therefore, you have an insight that is special.

You've got some reason that people want to hear what you have to say, an experience, whether you've been to the games, whether you know the people involved, right? Because how do you set yourself apart? And also, I would say, don't try to be anything other than yourself. Don't try to be anything other than yourself. Your full self. Yes, your full self. And be able to be vulnerable about that. Because in the end, yes, there are, I think what I have learned, and I talked to Kevin about this when we first got going. I said,

there's a bunch of people that are going to be talking about all the same things. So what makes them want to listen to you talk about it? And some of that will be insight, some of that will be perspective that you have, some of that might be humor, but in the end, it's because you allow them to feel a connection to you in some way, right?

You're not talking down to people. You're not talking around people. Like you are. That's a big one. Not talking down to people. The lack of ego. You're nothing special. You're just, you know, you're talking about.

This is what I think. And also, I would say, be able to be able to laugh at yourself. Yeah. Because you, if you can't, if you can't laugh at yourself and you can't allow people to criticize you and just. keep on going, there's no chance. You have no chance. You've got to be able to laugh.

You have to. Because otherwise, you're just going to get mad all the time, really, especially in this day and age. Well, yeah, especially at the social media age, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I can't tell you how many times where now, especially, you know, after all these years. Are you a muter or a blocker? If you see something you don't like on Twitter, do you mute or block?

I guess it depends on the level of. of offense. Yeah. But I just don't understand. Like, I look at some of the stuff. I'm like, why you, A, why are you so serious and why are you so mean? Yeah.

You know, get a life. Yeah. So I can pretty well say that now. Yeah. And, yeah, I think that's probably the best. Like, find, find something that you bring to the table that other people don't. Yeah. So that requires a lot of self-assessment, too.

What are the things that I have passion in? What are the things that I'm good at? What do I feel like is missing right now in the coverage of my team? Like, what's missing? What do I like that this person's doing? And what's missing with my team that I'm covering, right? I think that's an important thing. Like I found, like, for me, with Celtics blog,

like I was trying to write almost every single day with, like, analysis of games. Not that others weren't doing that. I just felt like there was like a gap at the time, like 2013, 2014 when I was starting to write Celtics blog. Like it was like Chris Forsberg was doing a lot of that. There were some other young writers, you know, coming up at the time. I tried doing a lot of that. And then with draft coverage, like I saw, like I did my NBA draft guides in 2014, 2015, and 2016 on my own. I felt like, you had like Gavoni and Schmitz doing their thing.

You had, you know, Vasini doing his thing. And you had some, like, Chad Ford at ESPN at the time. but nobody was doing like a draft guide presented the way that some NFL people were. And there were some NFL draft guys at the time that I noticed that were like big blocky texts, like long profiles, hard to digest. I was like, well, what if I did like an NBA draft profile and like a cool baseball card style format with like all my own analysis, quick-at thoughts, predictions, all that. And like that's the reason why like I kind of ended up getting hired by the ringer.

was because of the draft guy. That's what first caught their attention. Well, I think this is true of both you and I, which both had a very good passion for this, and this is probably the most important thing we could tell you. A, do it, start doing it. Yeah. Like, start doing it yesterday.

And then keep doing it over and over again. Even if nobody's reading you, even if nobody's listening to you, keep doing it and keep getting those reps in over and over and over and over and over and over again, right? And you can't sit there and focus on what's not happening with it. You're right? Like, this is what you want. And so I'm going to keep doing it. And you're going to keep on getting better doing it. And it requires sacrifice along the way, too. Like, with what you're saying, I don't keep doing it. Like, if you're working, like, I was working other jobs to actually make money. Like, it might require a Saturday night home not going out to dinner

with your friends. For sure. Like, it might require an unpaid night at home where you're watching the game and then writing a profile for two, three hours or whatever. Like those sacrifices are required a lot of times, depending on your life circumstances, your age situation, that's all different and all relative. But a lot of the time sacrifices required are putting in that extra effort too.

Okay. Last one that I had gotten, I want you to answer this to. This comes from Mbysus. What a great name. He said, I gave him his favorite music rec a few years ago with Coulter Wall. Who are you guys listening to now?

Coulter Wall is like a country-sounding guy from Canada. He actually is coming to do a show in Memphis. It's the same damn night as a grizzly game. So I can't go to it. I was so upset about that. Along those same lines, another guy, country guy, deep voice, wears a mask all the time as to not reveal his identity. This guy Orville Peck

And I have been Not because of COVID No, I have been absolutely Obsessed with his music And the last album he put out I love it Absolutely love it And there's all these stories on the internet

You know, I almost like Want it to remain mysterious I know there's all kinds of articles About who he is Actually But if you ever see him He wears a mask all the time And a cowboy hat

And he's great Absolutely great I love it. The last album I love. And I'm trying to think. I don't know anything. Oh, 1975, this last album they came out with, I've listened to it a ton.

Being funny in a foreign language, I love it. There's two. How about Madison Cunningham? She comes to mind. You ever hear her, Chris? No, I'm going to look her up. Check out her album, Revealer.

It came out earlier this year, super talented songwriter, guitarists. So the song that I like as I've been catching up on music that I miss this year, because I feel like I missed a lot this year, like looking at the best of the year. There's this album by Natalia Lafourcade. I think I'm pronouncing her name correctly. It's like an all, you know, it's not in English.

It's in Spanish and it's a very good album. I really, really like that. Yeah, I don't understand a word. I don't care. I'm not a lyric guy. I've never been a big lyrics guy. I don't, I don't care. about lyrics unless I care about lyrics.

Does that statement make any sense? I don't care about lyrics unless I care about the lyrics. Like the majority of the time, I don't care about lyrics. It's just words, unless I do. Unless it has a particular meaning to me, which is very rare. It just doesn't matter. Hold on. Kevin, oh, confusing.

Confusing. There's also a... It needs to be one of those motivational posters. I don't care about the lyrics unless I care about the lyrics. Yeah, I mean, that should be, that should be like a motivational poster for sure. Yeah, that's right. You know those like, you know, like the Abraham Lincoln quotes, like it's all black and white? Right.

Like, I need a quote, a graphic of that. Also, Noah Kahan, I first was introduced to him. I guess he had went viral on TikTok for his song, Stick Season. Oh, I love Sticks season. I saw him. He came on stage when I saw Mount Joy in New York earlier this year. And I was like, oh, this guy's voice is awesome. I'm going to check out his album.

And he has this great song called Northern Attitude. And it's, I think, the first song off the album before Stick Season, it's an awesome song. Yeah, he looks like Aaron Rogers, too. Yeah, he does kind of look like Aaron Rogers. He does look like Aaron Rogers. That guy's good. All right.

He's some, I'm still catching up. I still have time to catch up four days the rest of the year for 2022 music. Try to find it something American, would you? Yeah. Well, I mean, Madison, check out Madison coming here. I ran into her at an airport. You did? Yeah, after that Mount George.

And she said, get away, creep. Pretty much. Pretty close. Oh, man. Thank you to everybody that listened to us in 20. We will be back for 2020. Thank you to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always. Kevin, I will talk to you next year.

Chris, all the tweets we got with all the great questions forever, everybody. You're a dear goofy. Had me laughing so hard. Dear goofy. Sometimes people need to be responded to it. Dear goofy. Every once in a while. Every once in a while, I'm motivated.

I'm looking forward to 2023 as well. And yeah, we got a lot of great questions from people, Chris. Well, maybe we'll answer more of them in the new year because there's some there still be relevant. We'll talk to you in 2020. Happy New Year, everybody.