The Mismatch - Admitting Celtics Are Finals Contenders, Mavs Need Super Luka, and Drama in Brooklyn

Episode Date: May 25, 2022

After the Celtics beat the Heat to take a 3-2 series lead, Verno finally admits to KOC that the Celtics are Finals contenders (00:45). With the Celtics playing defense at an elite level and their role players stepping up, the guys doubt the Heat have enough to turn the series around. As long as the Mavs have Luka Doncic, they have a chance to extend their series against the Warriors, but the rest of the Mavs will need to play like they did in Game 4 (28:13). The guys give their thoughts on this year's All-NBA teams before discussing the latest drama in Brooklyn with the Nets (41:51). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. We're not just reacting to the NBA playoffs on my podcast. We're also doing it on The Ringer NBA show and The Mismatch podcast. They are coming after some of these NBA playoff games. Check it out, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday nights on the Ringer podcast Network. Welcome to The Mishmatch. I'm Chris Vernon. During meets he does every Thursday from the Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor,

aka Kevin O. Bomber, Kevin O. Clymer, Kevin O. Concer, Kevin O. Kevin O. Cannabis. Kevin O. Kavanaugh. Kevo. Berneau. Got a quick question for you.

All right. Do you think the Boston Celtics are NBA finals contenders? I mean, I think I got to say yes. I think the fact that they're a game away. I think you got to say yes. I think I got to concede. Isn't it crazy? it turned into this, Chris, one game away.

After starting off, is, are they sleepers? Maybe. Are they contenders? Maybe. Here we are. I mean, it's crazy. They were in 11th place in the Eastern Conference. Unbelievable. In January. That's crazy.

In January. They were in 11th. Isn't that something else? It's outrageous. Yeah, it is. and it's now been four months of the numbers saying, you know, that they've been the best team over the course of the last four months. It's not just a recent thing.

And it was deciding whether how much stock you wanted to put into, you know, 538 was, you know, had them right there at the very top. I mean, this is the best win for 538 since the damn Obama thing. They hadn't gotten nothing right since Obama. And now it's like Obama and the Celtics. That's the two things they got. They nailed. You know, they tell me Gorgie Jeng is like the third best defender in the last 10 years.

But they got this right. I'll give them that. It's shocking. Gorgie Jeng catching straight from Chris Vernon on a Thursday morning. Biggest shock. Biggest shock I've had since the McMenaman. Malika thing. Oh, my God.

We're coming out, we're coming out blazing this morning. Oh, shit. All right. All right. So the Celtics right now. I thought, I thought Emey Udoca summed it all up last night.

I thought he summed it up. You know, Udoca, you know, he wears his mask. Like, sometimes he gives like Belichick type of answers, like it doesn't give you a lot. But sometimes he gives you a lot. you a very great insight. I thought last side he gave you this. This is a quote from him. He said, you saw in the Brooklyn series guys were wearing down, game seven, Yana slowed down.

But having all those bodies to continue to throw up people wears them down physically and mentally making it tough. As long as we don't give them easy baskets with our guys, we're always confident they'll get it going and figure it out eventually. I thought that quote, you know, it's simple, but kind of tells you the story about throwing bodies at players. Like, this Celtics team, they're so big defensively. Their ability to switch, their ability to sometimes drop in the pick and roll, like second half, they have Grant Williams on Butler, Al Horford defending at a bio. You got Grant Williams going underscreens, Al Horford in a deep drop. We saw how they were switching a bunch of everything.

Last round, it's just, they have different ways of defending you, different ways of slowing you down, different way of getting in your airspace. When you have Marcus Smart and Robert Williams back on the floor, you saw Robert Williams, ability to help inside and close out blocking PJ Tucker corner threes. That's what they do. They just constantly throw bodies at you despite playing every other day. They don't seem like the team that runs out of energy. They're just inconsistent.

And that's where like you still give Miami a sliver of hope in the series. But I'm still continuing with Boston and six in this. How much you, Chris? The quote that stood out to me post game was Kyle Lowry, I sucked. Um, he said that after the game is that true is that a real quote

I mean it was I'm paraphrasing I don't know if those were the exact words it was terrible or something to that effect I don't know if he said I suck but it was something to that effect after the game oh for six right and 0 for 9 for Max Struce

they got big problems on their hands This series we knew is this series has been awful, by the way. Awful. In terms of entertainment, it's been awful. Yeah. Yeah. We have talked about at the very beginning where it was like game one, you know, we have heat up by 20.

Game two, Celtics up by 34. Heat up by 26 in the next game. Next game. Celtics up by 32. Next game. Celtics up by 23. I mean, these. these margins have just gotten crazy.

At least we had, you know, maybe we should just be grateful that we got a reasonably competitive half of basketball. Maybe we can't get too greedy that we got a competitive half of basketball. But as you're talking about the bodies, too, it's because they have those bodies available and ready to go. That while Tatum has a shoulder injury, He played one of the highest. He logged one of the most minutes games he's ever had last night.

You know, he's out there for 44 minutes of that game. They had their top seven back and they're banged up. Smart's banged up. Rob Williams is that his thing. But they had their seven guys back. And in this war of attrition, the heat of like, they've completely broken down as this series is going on. You have Tyler Hero over there in sunglasses and an outfit sitting on the side.

You know. Look sharp. He said he was. He said he was hopefully going to be able to be back and ready to go for game five. He wasn't ready to go for game five. And, you know, we talk about all the time. The muscle injuries are ones that are super scary because you can try to play through them, but you might be a, you can tell guys aren't right.

and that has been the case. It has been to their detriment that they have even put Kyle Lowry out on that court. That's not Kyle Lowry. That is an imposter. I don't know what percent you want to put on it,

but it's less than 50. You're not even getting a 50 percent. He's awful right now. You have Jimmy Butler. Since he had that injury in game three, he's come back. He's averaged less than 10 points. He's shot.

22% from the field. And that's when he even looks at the basket. He doesn't even look at the basket. He's not right in any way. And then the last two games, the heat back court, they're one for 28. They're one for 19 from three. And yes, part of it is for sure Boston's defense. But come on, bro.

One for 28. That is so extreme. I don't care what kind of defense you think they're playing. One for 28 is, it's like impossible over a two-game stretch. Yet that's where they are. And so they have broken down physically for sure, while Boston has gotten healthier as this series has gone on. And that is the benefit of having the amount of guys that they have. and that their extra guys not only have been available,

they've been big difference makers. You know, we know Tatum Stets. We know how unbelievable Horford's been. I believe he's got the highest plus minus of any player in the entire NBA playoffs. He's been sensational. But Rob Williams and what he brings to the table when he is, the best version of himself, or whatever that is right now,

the best version he's capable of being. And then the Derek White thing, I got to be honest with you, there was a, when the Celtics were pulling away in the third quarter, there's one moment, you'll remember this play where it's another, like, runout for Miami

off of, I don't know if it was a turnover or miss, but, White's not even in the screen. Is this the late third quarter play? It was after a make. And it was a steal. Yeah. So it was after a make, I think, by Tatum at the rim, right?

And then Derek White was right at the basket. And this is the play, I think you're talking about Ola Depot and Atabio on the break. And Derek White, not even in the screen, flies out of nowhere, intercepts the pass. And it didn't turn into anything. He threw it out of bounds. Right. It was just the pure hustle.

for him to get back in that play after a make and intercept the pass. It summed it all up. It did. It's emblematic of what they were able to do to that key team last night. And they always talk about playing with force and that level of hustle.

I mean, that's just straight up winning plays. He does that all series too, right? Derek White, like shots. With Derek White is making shots, that's the cherry on top. Oh, how about when they, he brings everything else of the floor.

Would they say, well, you know, he started the game with the first seven points or whatever it was in the last game. And then this game, he was five for five to start the game. I think the rest of the Celtics were one for a thousand. And he was getting some of those buckets by screening and rolling to the basket as well. Like it wasn't even just like, oh, spot up three is cut to the rim. It was like, this guy's setting on ball screens. He's setting eight on ball screens per game for Boston and the postseason.

And he's done a good job at it. And on some of those little short rolls getting to the rim. It's been cool to see him do that. Well, and those extra guys that we talk about, they've been great for Boston. They just have not for Miami. In fact, they've been downright abysmal. You know, when they are banged up and their best players can't be best versions of self and not even close, we saw Jimmy Butler earlier in this series. He's not that guy right now.

No, he's not. Kyle Lowry has absolutely no business on the court. Max Drews couldn't hit a shot to save his life. last night. Duncan Robinson is even in minutes again. Yeah, and you need the Oladipos of the world to step up. He was horrendous. He had that one finish and he was like,

looking like old Oladipo. And I'm like, what? Guy averaged like 27 points a game or some crap. He's like got one bucket. He's got five turn off. He's awful. Like all of them. I mean, combined. And look, it was downright historic

what they shot from three. They shot seven for five. 45, which is their worst in three years. That's unbelievable. Seven for 45. Seven for 45. That's hard to pull off, man. It's impossible.

Seven for 45. And it was the second worst in NBA history for a team that shot over 40. They, you know, as I mentioned, you know, Struz, he's 0 for 9, 0 for 7 from 3. Kyle Lowry can't make anything. And we talked about this on. last, earlier in the week. Like, they have to have great Jimmy Butler. They'd have great Jimmy Butler.

And certainly the hero thing has been immense. Because, as we mentioned, it's outsized is important. I know he was six million of the year. I know he was great this year. But it's outsized his importance because you look out there and you, there's certainly times where you're going, who the hell is going to score? Yeah.

Who's going to score? That's the tough part here for Spoke, right? Like in game six and seven, you already, so you bench Dwayne Deadman, and then you're promoting Duncan Robinson to give him more minutes, and you're going with PJ Tucker at the five. So you're trying out more Duncan Robinson dribble handoffs.

You're trying out Tucker at the five. That didn't work. That didn't work. Well, then you're thinking about game six. Well, zone hasn't worked. The Celtics are scoring against our zone this series. Is it a different zone? Is there a different, can we trim the rotation even more?

Do we pull Kyle Lari out? Well, I mean, maybe not because of how much you need shot creation. Like, you kind of have to bank on Lari having some moments. I just feel like the Celtics have had an answer for everything the heat have tried throughout this series. whether it's, you know, defensive adjustments or offensive adjustments. And granted, it's only three to right now. Granton, Miami and Eric Spolstra are some of the best out there with adjustments. It just feels like Boston has an answer for everything,

especially when they have Robert Williams and Marcus Smart on the floor, and there's no reason to believe those guys won't be back again, both be back again for game six. And in series, there's always an epic flow to a series, right? Yeah. And it typically feels, now, we have been. stunned throughout this because it certainly looked like the Sixers were in trouble and then they went and dumped Toronto. It certainly looked like the Mavs, you know, were not able to win at all at Phoenix.

And then they win, you know, the seventh game by 30-something points. But Chris Paul fell apart. Right. Like he collapsed. I don't think anybody in this series is going to have that happen to them except for. But are these mads, are these, are these heat guys going to magically? get healthy. Yeah, I just don't see it.

Like, I just think the team's too banged up. It's too banged up. They have to turn the Celtics over. That's the truth. They can't play the half court. And I know that some Celtics fans bemoaned their half court offense. Let me tell you something. Especially with the banged up Jimmy and the banged up Lowry and no Kyler Hero.

The last thing the Heat want to do, I mean, because it's just hands. handoff, handoff, jack a three, miss a three. That's what it was the other night. Like, they have to get their buckets in transition. They have to get that game moving up and down. That's how they had their success when they played with that kind of force earlier in the series. And you saw last night, Celtics stopped turning the ball over. And Jalen Brown was an absolute monster.

in that third quarter. Just so by far the best player on the floor. He was, he gets in those zones, man. I've seen it. I've seen it in person. He gets in those zones. And if you only watched him for five to ten minutes, you would go, oh my God, this is the best.

He can't miss. He can't miss. And he looks unstoppable because he's going to the rim and he's hammering on people, but then he's pulling up from the mid-range and then he bangs a three. It's like he scores at all three levels and you don't notice that he's not, you know, he's not doing a bunch of dribbling, right, which has been kind of an Achilles heel. He gets on some heaters that are pretty spectacular for sure.

Yeah, he's, I mean, when Jalen Brown turns it on, it was that I think he had two dribble pull-ups over Gabe Vincent, end of the third quarter before that real fourth quarter explosion happened. It's kind of weird. Like, Boston still had some moments in the first half where, you know, the ball slipping out of their hands, so they're forgetting how to dribble just like we saw in recent games. And like you get Jason Tatum, his arm, he had that stinger. He was holding his arm in the first half. And he comes out second half and looks so much more like his normal self as well.

He's playmaking all over the floor. passing was outstanding in terms of drawing defense and creating open shots for others. And that, Jaylon Brown, like you said, man, like sometimes he just, he gets in that zone, dude. Well, yeah, and I misspoke. Fourth quarter, because it was the beginning of the four. Yeah. It's the late, late third.

Yeah. Beginning of that fourth. And he ends up with like, what, 14, I think, or 13 or 14 points. Yeah. In that amount of time, it was crazy. Yeah. Yeah. And it was like, he had, I think like most of the buckets happened, like, over last two minutes

of the third quarter. first three minutes of the fourth quarter where it's just he's hitting absolutely everything those corner three-pointer he hit off a movement yeah and like you said some of the spot-ups he didn't have to dribble he was just you know on fire off the catch it's weird to watch both of these series and i don't think there's the the fluctuation between the mavs and the heat and what what they look like when they're at their best and what they look like when they're bad, it's just so extreme. And you can just say, you know, it's down to making shots, right? Where they make threes, you know, I read this morning when the Mavericks make 17 threes, they're like 20 and 3 this season. Okay, so that I can tell you some of the story.

And that seems like a very high number, but they shoot a million. And then the heat, I mean, they shoot 45 last night. They make seven, seven threes. I don't know what number you think is a reasonable number, right? But I think we could all agree that is so far below reasonable if you're taking 45 of them. And I do think that they, those two teams are very dependent upon that shot going in.

and when it goes in at a high rate, they look devastating. And when it doesn't, my God, they look like they can't score. And then let me say this on the heat thing. There wasn't just like, oh, they missed some shots. You know, if you get those shots again, then they'll make a bigger number, right? Like, I'm not so sure because these misses were bad. Yeah, a lot of air balls by Jim Dollar in the second half. Airball slamming it off the backboard, just straight bricks.

Like it wasn't like they're bouncing in and out. Or like, you know, landing soft on a rim and it's just, oh, they just ribbed out. No. These were like, caram 40 yards away threes. I didn't get it. Yeah, they're in a world of crap going to Boston. You know what that frigging garden's going to be like? You know.

Just imagine the heightened pitch for a game six closeout to be able to go to the finals. Good luck. It's going to be special in there. Yes. Good luck for an elimination game. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's going to be nutty.

And this is exactly the position that Boston needed to put themselves in. Not that they can't win in Miami, of course. But if they could get that six to be the elimination game. and so they get that game at home, I do think that their home crowd has a profound impact. And it's just human nature that, you know, it can have an effect on the officials, for sure, right? I mean, when you're constantly hearing you suck or bullshit or whatever, they're cheering, right? It's a little bit harder. Now, I know that the last game, you know, that Miami wasn't.

there did get very physical, but Celtics didn't have any problem going to the free throw line in those games. No, no. And so I just think they are, they are set up. They are set up to be able to pull this thing off. I mean, we saw, we saw Miami do it, or I mean, not Miami, Milwaukee do it. Milwaukee had a chance to go. They got the game six at their place, and they didn't close out the deal.

And next thing, you know, they're, you know, they're headed to Cancun. So, yeah. Well, hey, man, like, for things to be different, obviously, Jimmy Butler needs to be better. You know, you need Max Struce, somebody to be able to hit shots from behind the arc. And Bam, out of bio, he has 18 points in last science game, but that's misleading. So much of that came a bit later.

Meaningless. Yeah, he's got to, he's going to have more nights like he did with that 31. And Robert Williams being back and looking great. That doesn't bode well for BAM either. No, no. The Celtics don't even at times seem worried about them. They're playing drop coverage. They're not worried at all.

Well, and they have a big problem too. Miami has a big problem in that. You know, last night you saw where the Celtics had Grant Williams out there. And, you know, they didn't even have Williams out there along with Horford. and I don't know if it's because he was banged up or what, or maybe it was just an E-May move, but he ends up coming in midway through that first quarter, right? And that's when the heat usually shift to playing small

and playing Tucker at five, and they couldn't do it. No. And there's no other big guy to go. Once they've rendered Dwayne Dedman useless, Well, now your only choice is to leave Bam in the game. And so they did. He just left him.

He didn't sub out like you should, like you would normally sub out. And that's because Rob Williams is coming in the game. I can't have PJ Tucker out there with Rob Williams. Like, it doesn't work. And so, I mean, the truth is they got to make a lot more threes. 93, honestly, if I'm Miami, I am sitting back and going. Well, we got to win. games we give up 93 points.

End the story. We go up 93. That's a totally acceptable number. We have to win those games that we give up 93. 80 is the issue. And when you're trying to figure out how 80 gets better, well, when three of your top four scorers are not themselves, two of which will more than likely be unavailable,

Lowry and Hero, who are the second and fourth lead. scorers on that team. And Jimmy is a shell of himself. Who's the first leading score on that team? I mean, again, where are you getting the points from? Where? Where? I mean, that's what it exposed.

When there's no hero and there's no butler in the sense that he's playoff Jimmy, who was destroying everyone, including the Celtics, once this thing started, but has since game three has just been just a bad basketball player. I mean, he's just 22% from the field. Kyle Lowry shoots zero percent. And Tyler Hero's laying on the sideline. I mean, they got, I don't know where you're getting the points from. Yeah.

I mean, when you combine the fact that individually, Butler, you know, Lowry, these guys just don't look like they are healthy. And you combine that with the fact that so the Celtics defense has been like an outlet. level of great since January, as you said earlier, when they were 11th. And now they are, you know, this ridiculous defense with length and versatility and intelligence. And I mean, they're so connected. Like, it's, it's crazy just watching them on defense with their rotation.

They are so on point with where to be playing like little, you know, pieces of zone with man to man, like combining the two. What they do is crazy. And the fact that the Celtics are doing this with no time off. Like they haven't had more than one day off since after game two against Milwaukee back on May 4th. It was the day after that game. That's the last time. May 4th, May 5th until May 9th.

Remember that stretch where they had a Tuesday game and they didn't play until Saturday against the bucks? That's the last time. This team has been, you know, seven-man rotation with guys in and out of the lineup for basically this entire month. And they're the ones that have not completely broken down. Yeah, like it felt like Miami did last night. Yeah. And maybe Miami fires back. I just don't see it happening in Boston.

And I go Celtics and Six. We saw it with the number one seed in the West. Yeah. That team broke down because that team is Chris Paul. Make no mistake about it. Team is Chris Paul. And as Chris Paul goes, that team's going to go. Mm-hmm.

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Tennessee, Redline, 1-800-8-8-9-7-8-8-8-9 in Tennessee. 1-800-5-2-2-0 in Wyoming or visit at 1800-gambler.net in West Virginia. And we say that to now, wonder aloud. As we pivot to the Western Conference finals, it's going to be fascinating to see with the Luca deal. Because it is an extremely high usage. They had to bring it back. It would have been nice to be able to let him coast,

but because the others could not hold on to what was a crazy lead, they couldn't hold on to that. And the bench of the Warriors came storming back in that game. They forced you to put Luca back in that game the other night. But when he's played as many minutes as he has, he has as high usage as he has, it's, you know, it's every other day and travel. And at some point does he just give out?

It certainly did not appear so the other night. For that one, which was 30, 14, and 9 he had in that game. But I think it's always a concern, especially when you have just so much riding on one guy's greatness and that kind of how he sets up everybody else. Even when that game got close, he came in and either scored or assisted on every single bucket down the stretch. and they need Super Luca to be able to try to extend that series against the Warriors tonight. And it's been hard. It's been hard for a lot of these guys to not break down.

And so not only does he not need to break down, he's got to be amazing. But did you see anything in that last game outside of the Mavericks just making a million shots, especially to start that game? that made you think that Dallas has a puncher's chance at keeping this thing going? Yeah, I mean, there's always a puncher's chance,

you know, when you have Luca. You always have a chance when you have Luca to win any game. But I'm with you, Chris, with what you said there, about you need Super Luca. You know, he's 10 for 26 in that game, four. You know, he's magnificent. You know, don't get me wrong. But the fact that they win the game,

with Lucas shooting below 40% from the field, only 3 of 11 from 3. That speaks to how there's a higher level. Because we know Lucas capable of more. He can give more than that. He's had better individual games in this exact series. So, I mean, if you get an A plus or even an A minus, Luca and your teammates are hitting shots

and you're not getting, you know, totally ravaged on defense by that warrior's motion, yeah, you get a shot to win another one. and extend the series. That's what it speaks to is you say he shoots under 40%. The team, for the first time, all series, shot over 50% from the field. So it tells you what the others are doing to bring that number up. You know, it's kind of impressive that he's 10 for 26,

and yet the team shoots over 50% for the field. Now, a lot of that is they shot 20 for 43 from 3, you know. And it was the exact opposite of what we had to talk about on Tuesday, where, I mean, I had some Warriors fans mad at me like, yeah, they miss all those threes because of the defense, because they have to guard the motion offense and like, shut the hell up. These guys are wide ass open. Like, make a shot.

Also, I think we did allude to that during our conversation. I know we talked about it on a void weekend pod with Sam and Kirk, but I'm pretty sure if I didn't listen back to the show this week, but I'm pretty sure we mentioned, you know, the challenges and how guys are playing 40 plus minutes and how that wears you down. I think we did. Right? I'm sure we did.

I also don't think that that is, right? Like, so what? They weren't tired from guarding the other night? That's just because the Warriors' offense wasn't working or what? Come on. Like, these guys, they get wide open threes from this offense. Luca creates wide open threes for them all the time because of the attention that is absolutely,

essential on him if you don't want him to go totally berserk. And he scored a lot of points anyway. But, you know, Reggie Bullock and Maxie Kleba and these guys that were, couldn't hit the broadside of a barn, you know, Finney Smith stepped up big in that last game. He gets you 23. That's something, that's the kind of thing that you're not counting on, right? Like, you might be able to count on. If I told you Luca's going to go big, if I told you Brunson is going to go big,

it's who's the other guy? Who's the other guy that is going to like step up? And I'm not talking about like just make a couple shots here and there. Like you have Finney Smith go big the other night with the 23. And so who they need Finney, maybe it's him again. But they need somebody. And especially with the amount of Minotis plays, he's got to be really, really good, you know.

And he can be too. For sure, man. Yeah. I mean, you need, you need things to break right, like whether it's a big Bertons game or whether it's a big Bullock game or a really cold Steph night, right?

Like, you need things to break right for you. And I mean, I was, I was 14 when I saw the Red Sox come back from down three O to the Yankees. And I'll never forget Kevin Malar saying, I think it was before game four. He was like, you know, we win tonight. We got Pedro game five, Kurt Schilling game six,

and you never know what happens in a game seven. The fact they did that, then they went on to sweep in the World Series against the Cardinals. Like it's crazy. Eight days in October, right? Like it's amazing the Red Sox were able to do that. Three one comebacks are amazing. Three-oh comebacks are even greater.

So you can't, you can't ever rule it out from happening. But against this Warriors team and the way, we've seen that team pop and develop and play the way that they did in the West finals for the first three games game forward just it feels like you know just kind of a it's going to be a gentleman sweep here going back to golden state to play a home game in game five but you can't you can't ever rule it out you just you can't ever rule it out especially when you have a player at the caliber of lucas so i i hope i would love if the series got extended a little bit just for the theater and the dramatics of a potential game six going back to

Dallas. Like that would be really entertaining if that were our Saturday night getting to watch that game where it's like ooh because then it's three two. That's where it's like ooh, what could it actually happen? That's where things really get interesting. So, you know, I can admit that I am rooting to at least see a game six. Well, especially, look, especially because of how abysmal the other series has been. Like we just haven't, we want some kind of drama somehow. Yeah, exactly. I know. If we don't get drama, with individual games, can we at least get it with the Sears? Right. And if these are both just, you know, the Warriors just wipe the floor with them

and the Celtics just wipe the floor with them, then all right, then we can just get ready. But that's not even going to start until June 2nd. Right? Yeah, I know. Exactly. I guess those teams will get a little time to rest. Yeah, they are. They're going to get time to prep. It's like the Super Bowl off week, the bye week, right?

Well, and the other thing is that I, we've been doing this show, for a long time now, Kevin. And so we've been through every different iteration of the playoffs, the bubble, everything else. And there have been times where, I mean, we're talking about what Denver needs to do in the off season and how the clippers are going to match up with the Lakers. And then next thing we know, Denver's playing against the Lakers in the West

five, right? Like, I mean, we, we, that's happened. I saw like the chances that Dallas was going to go win in Phoenix much less demolish them I mean that is so that was so far-fetched to me and so now I feel like I've kind of learned my lesson

it's why I didn't want to make any of course I think the Celtics have a distinct advantage and it looks like there's very little reason to believe that the heat would have any chance. But we've seen some, I've written teams off, we've both written teams off and seen crazy stuff happen. And so after the Mavs did that to Phoenix, I'm not going to rule anything out. They are so dependent.

If they go 20 of 43 again from three, Golden State's got a problem on their hands. if they go 12 for 43, they don't. It's pretty simple. The one thing working against Dallas, though, is that as far as we know, Steph Curry is not going to turn into a bench warmer like Chris Paul. No. No, that's for sure. Like I said, it's a difference in, what, 24 points?

They hit 12 of their 45 threes that they'll inevitably take, you know. versus if they hit 20 of them, the 24 point difference is probably going to decide whether or not. It's just better. Are they got to make a bunch of threes or not? And certainly you see the downside to the three being dependent upon three-pointers in that Miami game last night because you can't have the seven for 45s. And as the series goes on, theoretically, it should be harder to make them, right?

Everybody's got tired legs. Everybody's got tired legs. Defenses know you much better. Maybe the threes that you are getting are not the ones that you got at the beginning of the season because they've decided to not let you get short corner threes or whatever it may be. So I know that the threes can change. But Dallas seems very, very dependent on the randomness of are you hot from three or not.

If they're hot, they're going to have a chance. If they're not, they're going to get run out. Hot or not? Yeah. Hot or not. Was that the old

Facebook Zuckerberg thing? Is that what he did? Is it hot or not? Yeah, what was that? It's kind of like a hot or not type of website. By the way, I watched Lego Batman last night. No, you did.

I did. I did. After the game, I stayed up a little extra late to watch it after. getting some stuff done. I can't wait to hear a review. You're right.

Laughed right from the opening. Even before the movie actually kind of starts. Yeah. He's like, take that Superman or whatever he says. He's always so, but he ain't Superman. I love it.

Yeah, it's so good. Yeah, his password was like, Iron Man, you suck. So good. Yeah, it was really good. It was entertaining, too. Like, it had a little bit of everything. thing. The action scenes were good. It was funny throughout.

Yeah, it was a really good movie. Thank you for recommending. And then they throw in like adult stuff too. Oh, totally. Yeah. Like that little, that little orphan kid comes up to him and he's like, my name's Richard, but the kids call me dick. And he, and Batman's like, kids can be so cruel. Yeah. I even like, I, I even like right at the beginning of the movie where it's where it's like, you know, we have 11 million sticks of dynamite, 16,000 pounds of C4, and we're requesting permission to fly over the most crime-written city in the world. It's like permission granted, sir.

Yeah. See my good guys? Yeah. You see my good guys? No, good. I'm glad you liked it, man. That was very funny. It's legitimately funny.

Yeah, it was. I enjoyed it a lot. Lego Batman was a shocking, I mean, amongst the kids. movies. Lord knows, I've seen them all. It's, do you like how movies kind of like flex, you know, all the IP they have, you know, like they just put everything in there? Yes. Like I've Lord of the Rings in there. Yeah. I like that too. They have everything. Cool. I know. I like that. Yeah, you know, uh, what was that? Who did that

recently? Oh, it was. Yeah, what was the movie? Space Jam. Yeah. I think people got mad about it with Space Jam, right? It's when they get, it's when they get to like, you know, the, the game versus the Monstars or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they look around in the crowd and like everybody's there from every movie for the last 100 years. So yeah, it's like flexing in the mirror. Yeah.

You know, it's like, I don't mind, no. It's kind of funny. I like, I like it. It's cool. Yeah. I mean, look, if you're not going to get sued for doing it, right? When you got the properties. Yeah.

All right. A couple other things we do want to get to. All NBA came out yesterday. Uh, anything I did not go through your intent. entire ballot, though it is available to the public. I did not have Kyrie on my ballot. Poor Jalen. Well, I don't want to say poor Jalen. I mean, that was, that's terrible.

He apologized on count down. He voted for a guy that played less than 30 games. I thought that was funny. Less than 30 games. Well, the only reason it matters, and this is because, you know, for sure, it's always going to come up and I know it came up with Tatum not making all NBA last year and now this year that when you're talking about $30 million difference the the expectation is that everybody that's got to vote takes that very very seriously you know and that stuff like that can't happen

now luckily it didn't cost anybody it didn't cost anybody uh you know a huge sum of money but the the point is that it could have it could have right and if somebody somebody's up for a contract, the amount of money. And it's a totally different argument, whether or not it should be tied to that. And I know you have your feelings on that. But the current state, it is. And so the expectation is you can't, you can't just do that flippantly because. And also, I mean, that's not even just flipping.

That's like, that's insane. Come on. Kyrie Irving, who bailed on his team the whole season. of all the people to vote for. It's crazy. It might be the craziest. I get a kick out of it. Of all the people.

So anyways, how did it match up with your ballot? I had the same 15 guys for all NBA, except the only difference I had was I had LeBron on my second team, DeRosen on my third team, and the final results had DeRosen's second team, LeBron, third team.

So same 15 guys, just one difference. between DeRosen and LeBron. You had Ciacom third. Yeah. And Trey. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Good job by you, K. Yeah. Sure. I suppose, you know, I'm happy that it worked out the way it did. I'm glad, you know, nothing egregious happened. You know, it was wild,

but yeah, it was good. You know, it was wild. I was looking at them yesterday. And I was going through it, and I was like, uh, LeBron is the only player. on the entire list that didn't play in the playoffs.

Wow. How crazy is that? Wow. Of 15 guys, LeBron is the only one that didn't play in the playoffs, all NBA, which is wild. You know what I mean? That's crazy. You think, I mean, you think about, like, you know,

clearly he had a very, very good statistical season, but we typically penalized people for not winning. And we, you know, we certainly, you know, coaches try to sell the kids at a very young age. If you win, the individual accolades will come, right? And that has been, by and large, true over the years. If you're on the winning team, then it doesn't matter if some guy on the losing team has a lot better stats than you. You are going to get the benefit of the doubt and you're going to get that individual accolade. And so I think for LeBron, when you've got whatever it is, 18 years of track record, you know, people would think it's crazy did not have LeBron named one of the best 15 players in the league at the end of the year.

But it is pretty rare that there's only one guy on the whole thing that didn't play in the playoffs and attempt. Yeah, it's strange, but that's the place the Lakers are in right now. that's the place they are but you have LeBron it certainly wasn't his fault necessarily he you know midseason LeBron's playing center without AD he averages over 30 points he's a shape shifter he turns into whatever his team needs him to be

the expectation going in was that he's not going to have to score as much as he did but then he nearly leads the damn league yeah but could you say that about everybody that is on a sorry-ass team I mean do we do that every year right where we say well not because of him, right? They're not bad because of him. No, they're bad because of something else. Right?

I mean, that's the way it worked. Yeah, yeah, usually. I mean, he's unbelievable, though. Like Brad Beale led the league in scoring a couple years ago, right? Yeah. I mean, the difference between LeBron and Beale is, LeBron does so much more. Yeah.

Beal's scoring was his main thing, but playmaking was okay. LeBron was, you know, great as a playmaker. especially given his circumstances, and he was, you know, playing center mid-year for, you know, a five-week stretch, whatever it was. And he was really- That team should have made the playoffs.

They should have made, yeah, they should have. Either way. Yeah, they should have got guys underwhelmed. And I mean, the other thing with all NBA is, like we were talking about, like, had Trey Young not made it because of, you know, some goofy votes, well, now you have Trey Young, he's eligible for a bigger contract here. So, like, you have him now eligible for 30% of the max, rather than 25% like he would have been previously,

which gives him a bump. The Hawks might be over the luxury tax line now, which could make it harder for them to build around. Same with towns too, right? Yep. He can make more as well. Yeah. There's a couple of those guys that it did have a profound impact

on the contract extensions that they can sign. Another thing I want to ask you about is the Brooklyn story. Oh, yeah. You think this is going to carry on? This is going to be one of our summer topics. The whole Katie hasn't talked to management. This is by Christian Winfield. Yep.

Right. Yes. And that was in the New York Daily News yesterday. Yeah. So Christian, so what did he have in there? He had that Katie and the- doesn't talk to management, right? And then the author expresses,

I don't think this is going that great. Yes. And then Kyrie. as well, they said that no guarantees that he gets the extension, right? Those are the two main things Christian had in that story. I think you could have drawn that from Sean Marks post-season press.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. No doubt about it. No doubt about it. It connects to what Sean Marks was saying there. The part about Katie not speaking with management, that's a little strange, isn't it? Especially when Kyrie Irving said that him and Joe and Sean and Kevin were going to get to.

get there built a team. Mm-hmm. Yeah. How do you think Katie feels about playing with Kyrie moving forward? How do you think

he really feels? Unfiltered. You know, he's hanging out with his friends and Rich Climing and he's talking about how to win

a championship in Brooklyn. Do you think he sees Kyrie as part of that? Um, Katie is not an idiot. He's also a very difficult guy to read. Yeah, he is.

That's what I mean. He's very difficult to read. and I do think they're legitimately friends. They are. They are. You know what I mean? Like real friends,

not just like some of the situations where it's like, like, I don't think him and James Hardin were really friends. Right. They played well together. Yeah, they play well. And they, you know, they're friendly. Their acquaintances, they worked out together in the summer. They got this hairbrain idea.

It all get together and force his way there and whatever else. They could pull it off. Brian and Kyrie at the time weren't buddies. You know, I think these guys are actually like friends. Yeah. And so I do think that's a little bit different. But, you know, they got swept out. Christian Winfield says, potential disasters brewing.

Here's the two things that matter, right? The two nuggets are, and I'll just read these, this is why, as I've already written, the Nets Championship hopes hinge on an amicable solution with Irving, whose personal decision not to get vaccinated and unpredictable injury history have led the Nets hesitant, and now, according to a source familiar with the Nets thought process, are outright unwilling to give him a long-term extension.

Okay, there's one. The second one is, if Irving leaves outright as a free agent this summer, disgruntled by the Nets' hardball stance on his availability, Brooklyn doesn't have the cap space to replace him with a star, which means Durant, entering year 16, could be playing with a questionable Ben Simmons, who's had back surgery, and a roster full of role players.

That's a first round exit at best. If Durant stays to see it, according to multiple sources, Durant in the Nets' front office have not spoken since they were swept out of the first round. In layman's terms, if Irving leaves the Nets, it wouldn't be a surprise

if Durant becomes frustrated with the organization's ability to put championship pieces around him. the idea is you're in like a you're in to catch 22 on this kairi thing right it's the worst thing you could do for your franchise probably it's also the way that you could probably keep kevin in the fold and kevin happy unless it's what he doesn't unless he doesn't want it unless he also it's like yeah let's see let's see what we can do without kari well he but i can't imagine that That's why he frames it, though, Kev.

You can't replace it. I agree. The way I read it is that this is the Nets front office taking back control. Like, hey, we're just going to do what we think is best for the future of the franchise, period, end of story. Here's the problem, though. You can't replace it. Yeah, exactly. Like, you can't.

But I just, I, like, don't you, like, from reading that, don't you get that impression that the Nets are just going to do what they want to do here, regardless of maybe maybe he's wishes. Yeah, but then I think he's right. think that's why he's framing it like this. It's year 16. Like, you sold your soul to the devil on this one. Because if you say we ain't, we ain't doing this, we're not signing you up long term. We can't commit to you. Then Kevin Durant's going to look around and go, who the hell am I supposed to win a title with?

Yeah. So he may feel the way you think, but it's also still his best option. if he doesn't have Kyrie, then he's looking around go, well, hold on now. I'm not winning anything with this group and we don't have any money to go and prove this thing. That's why it's a hard spot, you know, and is this just the dramatic ending to what was them all getting together in the first place? And it's just going to go down in history as an absolute abject disaster. It could. And I mean, the crazy part here is he's only in year one, entering year one of four with that big contract extension, nearly $200 million. So, you know, the nets don't have to trade him if he was disgruntled. They could say, deal with it and, like, know that we're going to fix it. We're going to win a championship with you. Just give us time to adjust and fix it again. And that's the thing that he doesn't have.

It's time. Yeah, he's older. Coming up. Big injuries already. Yeah. It's already lost some seasons. Year 16? I mean...

Well, what percent chance would you put on it that Katie demands a trade this off season? What percent chance? If they just let Kyrie walk? If they just say, we're not signed them. Or Kyrie just says, F it. Y'all don't want to give it too many. I'll go get it somewhere else.

Whether it's like, it could be sign and trade with Kyrie. That opens up possibilities of getting at least something back. If it's sign and trade, you know, maybe. I think that's the most likely path of Kyrie were to leave because so few teams have cap space. Like, why would he sign to Detroit for that, for example? And why would Detroit want him with Kate? I just don't see it.

I think it would be, yeah, it would be dependent upon what they can put around him. And not just him thinking it, but you and I, and everybody else in the free world thinking it that when they put that, whatever they walk in with that roster, that we go, that's a team that could win the title. Anything short of that, I absolutely could see it.

Would you put it under a third, like under 33% or over 33%? Oh, easily over. Oh, for KD demanding a trade, this offseason. Over? Given the circumstances and what I just read? I mean, I mean, that's a high, percentage. I thought I thought that I'd probably go like an under.

Oh. But by, you know, you don't have time. And Katie has proven. And Katie has also proven in the past. He will leave a team that just blew a 3-1 lead to the team that did it to you. Kevin, he doesn't care. He doesn't care. Well, let me tell you something. He was just, and he had Kyrie Irving there, because of the Mavericks win the other night, there's one team in these playoffs that got swept one and that it was them it was Brooklyn one yeah how far are you away if you get your ass swept in the first round and now all of this happening even if you want to say like we didn't think anything of Chicago Chicago didn't he swept we didn't

think anything everybody won a game they didn't even win a game you know so and Ben Simmons is having back surgery and he's 6-11? I mean, wouldn't you, if he, if he looks at it and says, we don't have, I got no chance of winning a title. Oh, God. In a private moment, he's got to think. He's a smart guy. He's got to look around and go, what the hell? I got one guy that just played 27 games, even though he could have played 80.

and I got another guy who didn't play at all and just got back surgery. Yeah, I know. Like, where am I? I mean, he 100% is at least thinking about it. He 100% is at least thinking, well, maybe what would be my exit plan if this doesn't work?

At the least he's thinking that. Well, and the other thing is this, Kef, he's in the very strange position where he gave it everything he had. He played that thing out. And nobody would blame. him. Nobody.

Of course not. That's what I'm saying is the strange position. Very rarely are you in the position where, especially in year 16, where everybody would say, you know what, you shouldn't have hit your wagon to this unreliable guy? You ain't got nothing to do. You probably shouldn't hit your wagon to the other unreliable guy. But now that they've done the Ben Simmons thing and he was never available for you. And now with the chirore thing, like.

like you if you want to if you want to go somewhere else I don't think anybody's going to blame me for that because I mean if they brought back

Kyrie I'm saying in a fantasy world and Ben Simmons is Ben Simmons again Joe Harris is healthy Seth Curry is healthy you know they got some other guys on that team like you would have

a chance. You would. Have a chance at winning the title. But all of those, when you were doing the percentage things, what is a percent chance that all falls into place? Pretty low. Can we flip this real quick? From the Nets front office perspective, you're Jersey,

you're Sean Marks, you're that front office. Is there any logic on your end just saying, you know what, maybe we should trade Kevin Durant, trade flip Ben Simmons elsewhere, or maybe just hold on to Ben Simmons and restore his value, get rid of Kyrie, Do you think there's any logic to the net stripping things down and saying,

we'll be bad this year in a year that's going to have one of the best draft prospects of the decade and Victor Wenban Yamah? Do you think there's any logic to them doing that? I think when you've got two of the, whatever, I don't know where you want to rank Kyrie, but he's one of the better players in the league. And you got two of them that maybe they don't want to certain. You try to come to terms on something that is reasonable. with him if you can.

And then you still run it back with those guys. And you hope that Ben Simmons has an offseason that he dedicates himself to getting healthy. I mean, when you've got those guys on your roster, you don't tear that down. And for what it's worth, just want to make this clear, Houston has the right to swap their 2023 first with Brooklyn.

So Houston has the rights to Brooklyn's 2023 first. So that does you no good. Yeah. Unless both of them. stink and you know, it's seen a two top market or whatever. You run it back for another year and you try to and you pray it all works out. And then after that, I think that's decision. Because the other thing is this, you say if I'm Joe Sy, Joe Sy, the only reason that stuff like that is, you never know what an owner is thinking.

But I know this. Outside the Warriors, I think they have the second highest payroll in the entire NBA. and that check is not fun to write. It is punitive, right? That luxury tax bill, and there's not a rich guy in the world that wants to write that check and didn't get a playoff win? Yeah. What the hell am I writing a check for?

You got to really convince that owner that it's just all these circumstances and everything else, that that's the reason it was a bad matchup for us, and we never got Ben, and we were supposed to have been, and Joe Harris was hurt and all that, you know. But it's a lot of convincing. And so if you say I'm Joe Sy, I mean, my calculus is a little different because I'm losing my ass,

and I ain't got nothing to show for it. Nothing. You know, this isn't fun. Why am I writing a luxury tax check for a team that can't win a damn playoff game? That makes any sense. That's a tough one to sell, right? That's Shaw Mark's job.

Good luck, you know. And I'm sure he's heard about it every day of his life. Why am I paying you? Why am I paying anybody? That's the way these guys are. You know, I can see him. I can see him being rather perturbed for good reason. Yeah, I just, I look forward to seeing what happens there.

It could be explosive. It could be they run it back. and they bring back Carrie and Ben Simmons and they just tweet the roster and you get Joe Harris back and

I think that's what you try to do for a year. Yeah, I think that's probably you know, what they try to do but we'll see.

We'll see what happens there. It could be approved a year for Kyrie and then we have Joel and Labid tweeting last night. You know,

the heat needed another star. Sixers fans don't like to see that. Well, I'm sure, I'm sure Daryl loved it too. Yeah, I bet.

Right? That's no fun. No. I mean, it's not wrong. No, no, he's a good analyst. Hey, really good, yeah. He didn't have carry out his ballot.

Kevin, it is always a pleasure. Thanks to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always. And I will talk to you next Tuesday. Have a good one.