The Mismatch - All Quiet on the Free Agency Front, The Gobert Gamble, and Summer League Excitement

Episode Date: July 5, 2022

After the initial wave of signings, free agency has hit a stall as Verno and KOC discuss how the league is waiting for Kevin Durant to get traded (01:17). The T-Wolves traded for Rudy Gobert over the weekend, and Verno shares why he doesn’t like the trade for the Jazz while KOC defends the move and shares why Gobert will flourish in Minnesota (10:15). Staying with the Jazz, the guys discuss how Danny Ainge always manages to get what he wants and why the Gobert trade is all about Anthony Edwards (29:31). Also, the guys discuss the Malcolm Brogdon trade and share their excitement for going to this year’s Summer League (44:19). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Yo, Rob Harvilla from 60 Songs That Explain the 90s here to inform you that we are back with 30 more songs because the 90s were super long and had a ton of rad music. Please join us every Wednesday for more 60 songs that explain the 90s only on Spotify. Welcome to The Mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon and joining me as he does every Tuesday from The Ringer.com. It's Kevin O'Connor, A.K. Kevin O'Connor, A.K. Kevin O'Connor, A.K.K.O. Conflict. Kevin O'O. Kavana. What's going on, buddy? How's your fourth? Everything was great. We are going to be watching basketball in person later this week, as it is the week of the beginning of the Las Vegas Summer League.

We'll get to that here in a little bit. But free agency did open up last week. We talked about the first round of free agency. We are going to get to some of the trades that have taken place since we last. spoke. But before that, I just want to ask you, what do you make of the initial wave? And then everything is really just calm down and it's like it's going to stretch out. And it's like, every once in a while, I'll look at the list. Like, hey, where did that guy end up? T.J. Warren. TJ Warren, going to Brooklyn. Like, then you find that out this morning. Right. Like, where did

that guy end up? Where did that guy end up? Like, names that we had brought up or names that I had thought of and the answer is they haven't ended up anywhere yet, right? Like I was like, hold on. Has there been any like Colin Sexton news that has come out? Like what, what's going on with the Aiton thing? It was like free agency hit, the Durant news hit, and then we had this wave of free agent signings really quickly, and now everything is just kind of calm down. And here's a news bite here.

here's a news bite here what do you make of the fast and furious beginning and now it's just here and there some news coming out about team building the one player that's intriguing why there's been nothing finalizes hard in for me but like with diondrey eight we know that's tied to the kevin durand's situation right um even with colin sexson i wonder what type of resolution we're waiting for there right like how does he tie into all of this happening with katie and the potential destinations he could go to because were they in, it's obvious. But like of the top names, that's all that's remaining, right?

I mean, we got mostly everything. Most of the names that are like free agents, free agents. Montrez Harrell, another one. Well, you know, like that Brogden stuff was out there for a long time and that trade took place. The other one that has not, that I was driving around the other night, and I don't know why he came to my mind, but it was John Collins.

And I'm like, well, that was a, in the news every day. And there's been no resolution to that. So, like, when's the John Collins deal taking place? Yeah, that's a good point with Collins. I mean, how long have we been here? Yeah, how long have we been hearing?

Yeah, how long have we been hearing? I mean, there was multiple reports saying he will be traded before the draft or during the draft and that's still lingering on. Right. I mean, here's the thing, though. Like, he could be tied into some three-team, 14-5-team mega-trade.

So it could sexton, for that matter, right? I think with some of these guys, I mean, like we talked about on Friday show, the Miles Bridges situation, he'll likely remain unsigned. Even Montres are all facing felony drug charges. He's staying unsigned for that reason, too, I'm sure. But like with Hardin, with Sexton, with Aiton, got a number of guys still out there. I wonder how much this ties to Kevin Durant. Well, and not only guys, like I said, those are guys that can move the needle.

Like that could change a team's outcome. As you mentioned, there is that like Hardin thing that's still out there, the Aiton Bridges. We just got T.J. Warren. Yeah, and then most of the names after that are not big names, right? You've got some of these veteran guys that it's like, well, will they sign somewhere or will they not? like guys that were really good like five, six years ago, whether it's Blake Griffin or Lamarcus Aldridge or Dwight Howard or Hassan White side, you know, on and all like names like that.

And so we'll see some level of resolution with a lot of these guys, but you might be right. Maybe a lot of it does tie in with each other. It's just kind of confusing when you get to say like the Aiton situation or the Sexton situation. doesn't that make you feel like, okay, the resolution is not that they are going to be with the teams that they were with. Because if the resolution was that they were going to be

with those teams, then what's going on? Still a possibility. I mean, like, let's say the Sons don't land K.D. Yeah. Maybe Aiton has no other option but to resign the Sons. Or, like, that's the best option on the table for him. Maybe I'll just end up, like, just being dead wrong about this.

but on the KD front, it just seems really strange to me that there was the report that, you know, Rich Klyman, his business manager, and Marks were working in tandem to try to find the resolution, try to find the trade. So you've got the agent working out there in conjunction with the management.

So you got two different sides, scouring the league, trying to put together a deal, trying to put together a good landing spot. And so you can either say there's a bunch of possible deals and they're all laying on the table and now they're going to decide which one they want to take. Or you could say they scoured the whole league, they got all of the deals and they're looking at them and none of them are good enough. And don't you think, that it puts a wrench in it with what happened.

Let's just dive right into it. Don't you think it puts a wrench into it with the Rudy Gobert trade? Because in fairness, if you are Sean Marks and you go, well, I can't very well take a worse deal

than what Utah just got from Minnesota. They're not going to get a worse deal. It's like not even a concern. I mean, I think that if that type of deal would have taken place for Kevin Durant, the reaction would not have been wild. The Gobert got Kevin Durant return. That's what Utah got. They got Durant return for Gobe.

Are you sure? I mean, here's why I asked if you're sure, Chris, because we saw Drew Hall let me go for three first. Gobert goes for five. Okay. I mean, to me, I'm expecting, like, I, the article's not up yet, but like, I have an article all today about, like, kind of making the case for, like, the non-suns heat teams for Kevin Durant, right?

Like, what are the other teams? I talk about the Pelicans. And I make a note in there, like, the Pelicans could give up eight first-round draft picks and still have five left over, because they have 13 over the next seven years. And you can't say that about any other realistic destination for him. him. And like, eight feels reasonable to me for Kevin Durant with four years left on his contract. You know what I'm saying? Like, that's the way I'm operating and thinking about the situation here. Now when you consider, Holiday got three. The Jevanté-Murie return was around the same ballpark.

Gobert's five, essentially, because you want to factor in Walker Kessler. He's a rookie. He's basically a first-round draft pick. I mean, they gave up 23, 25, and 27 unprotected with 29. top five protected and Walker Kessler, you might as well call it five first round draft picks they gave up for me to go bear. So I think with Durant's, my expectation would be seven or

eight or nine of equal value. Maybe there's a young player in there that kind of counts as a first round pick. But like that's the way I'm looking at it, Chris, with this situation here for the Nets Air is this is going to be a historic call. That's what it's going to be if they

end up reaching a deal. I mean, It would be like nothing we have ever seen before. I mean, we've never seen any of this. Well, in fairness, it has not worked out well. It hasn't worked out well. What's that? What's that? What's that?

What's that? What's that? What's that? We talked about this. Because this is the fear, let's talk about from the Brooklyn side. Brooklyn is exactly that team that gave up a ton of picks. Mm-hmm.

And now they're in a weird spot, right? Because it's like, okay, if we bottom out, I guess it's an option to still. It worked for the Lakers, though, Chris. I just going to say that real quick. It did work for the Lakers. They gave up all that for AD, and they did win a title. They did win the title, but they have also missed the playoffs.

You know what I mean? And they didn't get to have a parade. And so I know they won that one title in the bubble, but you didn't get the full experience of winning the title. It's too bad that couldn't have had a title, a parade. That's really too bad. They probably still couldn't have a parade. I don't even know if they would, I don't even know if they'd let them.

Bring Kuzma back? I have a parade now. But yeah, I think that, well, let's get into the Rudy trade. Like, look, I'm sure, you said you were really looking forward to this podcast. You are never. Why would I not be? Any time I have an opportunity to talk about the greatness of Rudy Gober. I know you do.

I'm always looking forward to it. I hated this trade with the fires of seven hells. I, it's unfathomable to me. I hate the fit in Minnesota. I hate that they broke up what they had. I hate that the amount that they gave up for him. To me, it's new ownership, new GM, tearing up something that didn't need to be torn up.

I just covered this team in the playoffs. You know, throughout the regular season, they sneaky had one of the best lineups in the entire NBA. Throughout the regular season, that lineup that they had, because of course I had to deep dive into the wolves, and then I saw them up close and personal throughout those playoffs. But they had that lineup that included,

Patrick Beverly, DeAngelo Russell, Carl Towns, Anthony Edwards, and Jared Vanderbilt. And we talked about it a lot on the show. And I thought this great combination of the guys that need shots and the guys that don't need shots, offense and defense. And when you look up throughout the regular season of the lineups that played significant minutes throughout the season as a five-man unit. The only five-man units in the entire NBA that were better than that Minnesota lineup

were Boston's Horford, Smart, Jalen, Tatum, and Williams, Phillies, James Hardin, Tobias Harris, Embed, Thibble, and Maxie, and Dallas is Reggie Bullock, Dwight Powell, Dorian Finney Smith, Jalen Brunson, and Luca Donchage. That's it. That's the three. There were three five-man lineups in the entire NBA that were better than the five-man

unit that Minnesota put out there the most. And it led to their greatest success in a long time. So to me, especially when my best player is 20 years old, I'm not trying to make a win now, win the next three or four years as much as I am. Okay, here's what I've got. This is highly successful. That's not what I need to change. What I need to change, I need to augment that.

But what I've got as that first five-man unit is not good. It's outstanding. It's the fourth best in the league. So how do I take that and then build around that? Because I got something great going. And what they did is they walked in and they tore that up. They tore that up, which is what made them good. And I promise they ain't going to have a lineup that's one of the top five in the NBA.

And they did. And so to me, it was, that's a fool's errand. Not only did you give up. an absolute fortune, you tore up a lineup that was incredibly successful and also very good. It's not like it didn't sustain, still very good. You know, that series with Memphis was a series that you could easily look back and say, that was their first go-round, that was Edwards' first go-round. And look, I was viewing it through the other side.

Minnesota had every right to say we should have won that series. We should have won. We blew it. We blew that series. And I think they would be rightfully so. Rightful in believing that. And so I don't understand ripping that up. And in order to go get Rudy Gobert, who isn't playing.

second round basketball most any year. I'm sure you feel different. That lineup, now you're replacing Jared Vanderbilt with Rudy Gobert. Okay. You're also taking out Pat Bev out of the situation. I mean, that's fine. But Patrick Beverly is a good, tough,

gritty, on-ball defender. But I think for this team, as Anthony Edwards continues to grow, you want him to become more on-ball. You want this team to grow in that way with him. Now you add Kyle Anderson, you add Rudy Gobert, you still have Jaden McDaniels. I look at this front court.

I'm less worried about the perimeter guards. Like Derek White and Marcus Smart in the finals against Stefan Curry, the guy you might have to get past, they can't stop Steph. So can't Patrick Beverly. Nobody that can stop these great perimeter scores. That's not to devalue what they do. It's important to disrupt to make their offensive actions and not run as smoothly or as crisp

as the offense hopes. They're important in that sense, but sometimes there's just nothing you can do. I think to me, like the most important part for the Minnesota Timberwolves here is the amount of front court versatility they're going to have now. Like when you have Cat,

Gobert, McDaniels, Kyle Anderson, you know the value in Anderson with what he can provide. Love the signing. I thought that was great for that. It's great signing. Jada McDaniels, one of the better defenders in the entire NBA. And with Rudy Gobert, he's not going to be in the type of role that he was in in Utah. He's not going to just be dropping in the pick and roll, defending every action. Sometimes it's going to be cat. And now you're going to see Rudy Gobert in the Vanderbilt role where he's

defending that guy who's in the corner three spot. Sometimes he's on the wing. And he's going to be in a position to help and disrupt around the basket or help outside and like on dribble handoff. action, shade over a little bit more and cause issues in that type of way. Rudy Gobert paired with Kat now, you're going to see different sides of him. And on offense, you might say, well, Gobert hurts your spacing. But that offensive lineup, you just laid out, you had Jared Vanderbilt on there who does not shoot threes, who did quote unquote hurt your spacing and did not negatively impact their offense.

They still shredded teams with Jared Vanderbilt, Jared Vanderbilt out there. And I think for them now, the way they're looking at it, you say their best player is 20 years old and aunt and you're right he is their best overall talent on their roster Cat only two years left on his deal there's got to be at least a little bit of urgency

to try to push things and win with him because you have this supreme say what you want about Kat like the criticisms of Kat and his defense the whining the complaining that you can feel that way all you want but offensively this dude is a brilliant player seven footer who can shoot

the way he does who can attack off the bounce and score inside. Cat is unbelievable. And now you pair him with Gobert, who's going to have DeLo and Anthony Edwards, giving them the best lob threat, the best roller that the NBA's had in the last four or five years. So you're going to help out Delo and Ant by having Gobert. You're helping out Cat because now when teams are worrying about having to help on

Gobert rolls, Kat's getting kickout passes behind the three point line and able to either shoot or attack. To me, Gobert, like he was in. Utah is somebody who enhances the players around him, makes life easier on certain players, and also just fortifies your defense in ways that so few players can. So it's a lot to pay. It's a big gamble on Anthony Edwards being 20, and Carl Anthony Town is still having, you know, some ways that he needs to grow. But I think Obert is the type of player who can help those young guys grow even more and become the full versions of themselves. To me, this is not just an

investment and oh Rudy Gobert is our final piece. To me this is also an investment in like, hey, let's make Edwards better. Let's give him a weapon. Let's make DeLo better if we're going to have to hold on to him. Let's make him better. That's the way I'm to me, even more space is what the Edwards was so successful because of the space that was created by towns being out at the three point line. You know, I watched them in that in that playoffs series. You think about it through this. The reason,

that Stephen Adams, who led the league in offensive rebounding, he was unplayable. He wasn't even out there. This was an essential part of Memphis's success this year that was not able to get on the court because what they bring to the table when they can play CAD at center is so disruptive because now they're the ones spacing you five out. And it's like, now, like, you think you're close, close. closing playoff games with both. You talk about what Gobert and how much better he makes those.

I don't think that's what's closing games. And so now you're going to look up in a couple of years, you've got to pay $47 million for a guy that, to me, like, he makes your center irrelevant if he's not like the mobile guy. I'm talking cat does. Like he is that weapon being able to have not only a guy that can stand out of the three point line,

but can shoot it, like at a very high clip. To me, that creates such an issue that now is mitigated by wanting to get this other guy, this other center who is everything happens within five feet of the basket on the court. Now I can play my big plotting center. But this is what I mean, Chris. This is what I'm saying. You don't always have to finish for Rudy Gobert. If you're the Minnesota Timberts.

What am I paying him $45 million? I get it. I understand the money. I get that. I do. But like this is what I'm saying. For Chris Finch, you have so many different combinations

that you can use depending on what gives you the best chance to win. They're going to have games in the postseason where Rudy doesn't finish. It's inevitable. They're going to,

there might be certain series where he does finish. Maybe you're facing Denver. Maybe you're in the NBA finals and you're going against him beat. I have no idea. But there might be certain situations where you do.

Maybe they use him a little bit differently. Maybe they're actually feeding him some of those interior chances when he has Clay Thompson sealed off underneath the rim. Maybe it's different. It looks different because it's totally different personnel here. Let me ask you a question. And how does this not crowd things when you were talking about Edwards? How does this not crowd things for Edwards when Edwards did it with Vanderbilt?

Did it with Vanderbilt? No, what? You think Jared Vanderbilt is some kind of devastating driver? to the basket? No, what do you, I'm saying, what do you mean by crowd? I'm talking about Edwards. What do you mean by crowd things then? Edwards is a, because now there are guys down there.

Yeah, but there were with Vanderbilt too. When they, they really weren't. Vanderbilt was kind of extended dunker spot. If you go back at why. Goberra's going to be in the same spot. Edwards had a bunch of, this whole like, he's just like Jared Vanderbilt is not true. Jared Vanderbilt. No, he's not.

He's not. He's not. He's going to be playing. in that type of role. Sometimes. He's never going to be spread out. And you may not guard him, but Vanderbilt was more spread out than Gaube. Yeah, but it matters where you guard or not, you know. And to me, you've got whoever is that center,

now you're just drawing them, whoever is the rim protection for that team, that guy's going to get to be close to the basket now, instead of way away from the basket. That's how I view this. and that is not the guy that was guarding Jared Vanderbilt. You didn't use your rim protector on Jared Vanderbilt. You're using your rim protector on Rudy Gobert.

The Grizzlies might not. Now, everybody, everybody's rim protector is guarding Rudy Gobert. What are you talking about? No, I'm saying last year. Anybody, any team? Well, Chris, I just want to make sure we're on the same page. What I'm saying is last year, sometimes you did have your rim protector guard Jared Vanderbiltz.

What's that? See the defense. Like sometimes the rim protector was defending Vanderbilt, but not Cat. Almost all the way across the board, if you watch these teams play. I'm not talking about a specific team. I'm talking about everybody.

You know what I mean? You now have drawn your, whoever, you're a big guy. You have somebody big. It's not a diminutive player that's playing against Gobeck. And now he is functionally close to the basket at all times.

Whereas when they played cat at center, that was not so. Therefore, you create the epic amount of space for Anthony Edwards. And usually people would just hide a defender on, that is the difference between Vanderbilt and Gobert. You can't just hide a defender on Rudy Gobert. You could hide a defender on Jared Vanderbilt and just say whatever he does, he does. So I just think you have to view everything through the prism of what is the best fit with Anthony Edwards. And I just say, just don't see that. I don't see how that, how crowding the lane

is good for Edwards. Yeah, but what we're talking about is one specific situation. What I'm talking about is the range of options they have. Can we acknowledge that Gobert is going to be a weapon for Edwards in the pick and roll? I don't know if I've ever seen Anthony Edwards throw a lot

to anyone. Okay, now he has Mike Conley didn't either. Maybe he will. And then Mike Conley and Gober became one of the NBA's most efficient pick and roll duos in the entire league. And so now Anthony Edwards, like, could we agree that Rudy O'Bair could be of assistance to

Ant in the pick and roll? I suppose it's possible. And Delo? I would be stunned if he's on that roster next year. Delo. You still think a trade could happen? Yeah, I mean, like at this point, they're obvious. I don't know about this point. Most GMs, we've talked about this for years,

most GMs come in and they want their own team. A couple of them stick around. So they obviously, they extended Kat, they gave him the deal. They're going to do everything they can with Edwards. But the rest of the parts, a lot of those, you know, get flipped out. And I just think in this particular case, it was a mistake to flip out a lot of the parts. Because I think that to sacrifice depth and to sacrifice, you did have something really good going. And I do think that you could build around them.

I thought the Anderson thing was a great, great start in terms of another piece, another guy that is outstanding when he is surrounded by shooters, which is what they have. What about on the other side? Do you like it for Utah? Do you just like the trade all the way around? Do you like it for Utah and do you like it for the result? Of course you like it for Utah with the amount of picks that they're getting. And I mean, because just in the same way you're acknowledging it's a massive risk for Minnesota

to give up all that draft capital. For Utah to get what they did is a huge win. And some of the players that you're talking about, Vanderbiltz is a nice piece to have. Like I think even Beverly, getting somebody like him on their now younger roster, if you do keep Donovan Mitchell, have him in the back court with him.

I mean, it's nice to have some, you know, at least someone who can bother the opponent on the perimeter, which they haven't had in a long time. So, yeah, I like it for Utah. If I'm then, the question now is, what's my appetite to keep Donovan Mitchell? If there's equal or even better deals out there in terms of value for him from other teams. Are you trying to blow it up all the way right now, Chris?

Or you do want to kind of redo the roster around Mitchell and see how things look with him, at least through the deadline? That's what I would. See how it looks. Yes. I agree with you. I would try to build with Mitchell in mind. 100% agree.

Okay. I've got this outstanding player that now I need to figure out what is the best way to build around him. I am much higher on Mitchell. I think you are too. I mean, I'm just much higher on Mitchell than I think he's gotten down talked way too much. I've always been a fan of his. I think he is a dynamic player who has showed up in the playoffs. And I want that guy on my team. I think he is better than maybe he has gotten credit for recently. I understand the defensive misgivings, but I think he is a powerhouse. I think he's a great, great player. And I do think that if I can try to build around him, yeah, I try that first.

I try that first before blowing the entire thing up, you know. Yeah, that's what that's, I think that's, I think that's what I'd do. And then you try to, you know, you try to pull off where one day, like you still got Paul Pierce, but, you know, if we're doing the whole wind horse thing, what is going on in Utah? If we're doing that, yeah, a lot of that the first time around was yanked apart. These are teams you grew up with, right, Kev? And you had all this young stuff. you had Al Jefferson

and you had these teams that weren't going to win but you still had Paul Pierce there it was like all right it's not like he went and got all of them you know Pat Riley he still had Dwayne Wade there and then he went and got LeBron and Bosch so I think if you're Danny Age

you sit there and go all right Mitchell's my peers now I got to figure out how I'm getting the others right because once upon on a time you got to have the first piece you can't have none and so they had peers and pierce wasn't going to win anything but then he was able to rebuild it get the hit on some draft picks

get some guys that were good and then he was able to flip that next thing you know they got kevin garnett and ray allen flanking paul pierce and i don't know if that you know obviously that's extreme but can you if you're danny aange with that in mind say all right right, I've got Donovan Mitchell. Now, I've got to be able to use this other capital in order to build around him. And he's done it before. He has done it before. Right.

I guess twice. He's done it. He's built it up. He's one of the greatest general managers in sports history, Danny Ages. How do you think he works? I was having a discussion with a friend the other day when that trade went down. and I was like, they got, damn, I mean, basically five first round people. It's a great deal.

It is. And he's like, do you think he's just one of those guys? The guy I was working with, or what I was with was, he's a finance guy. He's like, you think he's one of those guys that's just like, all right. I went to my owner. I've got, you know, I think he's going to okay this. I think he probably is one of those guys that like keep saying he went back to the, you know how the, you know, if you ever buy a car, they keep going back to the manager and then they come back and then they go back to the manager and come back.

I think Danny's probably that guy that says, I went to my owner and came back. And most of the time he's probably lying. He probably never went to his owner. But he's like, he'll do it. But we need another first round pick. And then he comes back. He says, all right. I'm almost there, but we need like another.

We need another player or another first round pick, right? Ryan Smith loves Rudy. He doesn't want to let Rudy go. I'm sorry. And so now you're like so close to the finish line. I think this would be my guess. Without knowing that Danny Hange works like this. You are right there at the finish line and he's got a deal.

and then he lays down the hammer and says, look, we can get one more first rounder, we'll do it. If not, then we got to walk away. I'm sorry. It's like, we got to have Walker Kessler. Just let me know. No Walker Kessler, we're not doing the deal. Just let me know.

And then the other guy wants what he wants so bad that he's like, all right, and next thing you know, you've given up five first row picks, right? He's just worn you down. and the next thing you know you're like, oh shit, I just gave her. Like, because you just wanted it, right? I just wanted it.

To me, Chris, to me, Chris, this is a bet on Anthony Edwards. That's what this is. This is a bet on your 20-year-old superstar, still on his rookie contract, and you're trying to win games with him now. That's, to me, that's what this is about. And I know with Rudy Gobert, you say the $47 million,

which isn't until 25, 26. He's making 38 this coming season. But like, that deal for Gobert expires in 2026. At that point, with Anthony Edwards, it's just going to be year two of his rookie max extension. So, like, it's not like this is limiting you for a decade.

We've got a cat's thing too. It can accelerate things quicker. Yeah, Kat, you do have in 2024. So like what I'm saying is like to me, this is a bet on the use of this team with what we saw from Anthony Edwards in the playoffs against Memphis. Didn't that look like a guy to you that is a prime candidate to take a leap this year to go from, oh yeah, really, really nice, 21 point per game guy? No, and that's my thing on this. I love Edwards. Yeah.

I would be feeling. the chance to win? I would be building with him in mind. I'd love to think that this is all about basketball. I just don't believe that. I just don't. I'm talking about the way it all fits. Do you think it's an ownership splash?

Yeah, I think this is. Glenn Taylor's got a year or two left. He wants to win. The new guys want to win. They want to show off the new Ferrari. You know, so you got new owners that want to win. They got a real weird deal going on there, right? where the transfer of power doesn't take place.

So you've got the end of Glenn Taylor, the beginning of the new guys, and a new GM that came in that wants to have his own team. He don't want to live off of what was already built. Every GM wants their own thing that they're responsible for. I did that. I did that. I did that. Sometimes it works.

Sometimes it doesn't. But I think that that's what all adds up to how this happens, right? and that if you were in a different place with ownership, with management, let's say Gerson-Ros never gets in trouble, let's say, you know, that the A-R-R-R-D deal, maybe it's a couple years out, or maybe the transfer of power has already taken place. I think that you've got a lot of extenuating circumstances beyond just sitting at a table and going,

what's best for my 20-year-old budding star? This is, we want to win now. that's the question, Kevin. Did this trade just put you directly in the middle? You are going to be good. Make no mistake about it. You're going to be good. And there's a level of competency that they want to reach. I was listening to my buddy John Cresensky. You went on with Zach Love. They have never been good three years in a row. They're about to be. At this point, yeah, just being good. And you are always one that only cares about championships. Yeah. And I think Rudy Gober is a championship player. Oh, come on.

He's not a second round player. He got beat with a team without Kauai Leonard and then got beat with a team without Luca Donchins. Yeah, but like, the jazz got beats. Not just Rudy Gobert. It's on an individual game. First or second best player in your mind?

Yeah, yeah, of course. But like, it's... Then it has to lay on him. I'm sorry. Of course, it's on him. And of course, he has limitations too. We don't sit there as a Peyton manning got beat. We say, or the Broncos got beat.

You're right. Like, oh, by way, it's different with a quarterback with how important they are to their team. But with Gobert, with Gobert, he does have limitations. I feel like it's obvious. People know his limitations. We know he's not like, he can't do anything on the perimeter offensive. He's not a shooter, not a ball handler.

He shoots below 50% when he dribbles more than once. Gober has limitations. So has his a championship player. Because of what he provides on defense. And now it's in a situation where he actually has some backline support on defense. Jada McDaniels. Kyle Anderson, Carl Anthony Towns. Even DeLo last year was good in help

on the situation they used him in roaming off ball last year. The team has actual pieces on defense to help mitigate if he's switched under the perimeter and the pick and roll like he often was in Utah. Behind him is Joe Ingalls and Donovan Mitchell and Mike Conley and like a bunch of smaller defenders or ineffective defenders, Jordan Clarkson. Minnesota has such better personnel where if Gober is in the perimeter,

you're okay with it. Because Gobert has become individually a good perimeter defender as a seven-footer. He's not some stopper. He's not even Jared Vanderbilt on the corner. I don't know, man. I thought Beverly and Vanderbilt were both outstanding defenders. But they're not Rudy Gober. All right.

Well, all I know is when. Rudy, Rudy. Rudy. Memphis lost because they weren't good enough. But, I mean, John Moran will score 50. against Utah, Minnesota made Morant look as bad as he's ever looked last year with their personnel. I mean, these are the kind of guys he had to deal with when he get to the playoffs.

I watch him score 50 points against, or 47 against Utah, most of which were in the paint while Rudy Gobert was playing. And then the next year, I mean, he was struggling against Minnesota. Minnesota did not have some kind of terrible defense. And in fact, their point of attack defense was pretty damn good. And both, they had some, they had some deficiencies. But I thought, I thought Beverly and Vanderbilt were both good defenders. Really good.

You know what I mean? And again, it all just kind of fit, you know, with their stars and their role players and a pecking order to me. And by the way, Minnesota played drop against Jha. No. They played almost every single time he was seeing a second guy by the time he would get to the elbow. That's not drop.

They're not all the way. Nobody was standing in front of the basketball. To be fair, they did mix it up. They played a little drop. They switched some. They blitz some. They did switch up their defense a lot against Jha. He saw two guys all the time. But that's what I'm saying, Chris. They still retain that flexibility.

except now it's with Rudy Gobert. They still have that flexibility in terms of the types of defense that they can play, the types of lineups that they can put on the floor. Now with Gobert, like you talk about needing to finish with him in Utah, that was the case in Utah. They didn't have anybody behind him you could rely on. With Minnesota, now sometimes you can go with a cat McDaniels front court. Sometimes you can go with Gobert, Cat, McDaniels,

with jumbo-sized lineups. you can play smaller, you can play bigger. I'm excited to see the way Finch is going to use different types of lineups and how that's going to dictate the types of scheme that they use. Do you think that deal ensures you getting to the second round of the player?

I have no idea. I can't make those fruit. How can you give up five first round picks? Yeah, but like, it doesn't, nothing assures anything. Bro, if I'm giving up five first round picks, I better be competing for a title. Nothing assures anything, Chris,

in this loaded league right now. I mean, like, if you're in Minnesota, you just might get, the Warriors in the first round. I don't know who they're going to face in the first round of the playoffs. I can't make that prediction on paper. Yeah, Minnesota's equipped to go to the second round with the team that they have. But that also requires further improvement from Anthony Edwards.

Like, to me, this deal isn't just about the 20, 23 playoffs. It's about Anthony Edwards growing into the prime of his career and becoming the player that you hope he becomes as the number one pick by maybe this season, maybe next year, but to me it's about Anthony Edwards more than anything else and a big bet on him and the player that he can become. That's the way I look at it. It's a bet on Anthony Edwards.

Yeah, and I look at it completely differently. I think this is not a bet on him. Because that is not the problem. And you look at more of an ownership. Yeah, and I just don't think that's a basketball, the most natural basketball fit. If I got Anthony Edwards, I'm trying to create the maximum amount of space.

That's what I'm trying to do. And so fine, if you want to say, Well, Vanderbilt didn't do that. Fine. Then chuck out Vanderbilt. Find you another guy that can pop threes that is going to be honored 25 feet away from the basket. Because I'm telling you this, can't nobody stay in front of that guy?

Nobody. But spacing isn't always what the Rockets did. Sometimes it's having, you know, a screen and roller like O'Bare, who's forcing defenders to collapse inside, and that's opening up kickout passes, and kick out passes are opening up spot-op threes or driving kick opportunities. shots at the rim.

You know, like that's, I think the Gobert factor, again, like, the versatility on defense we're talking about applies on offense in the sense that sometimes you'll have Gobert just hanging around the dunker spot. Sometimes he's going to be off the floor and you're going to be going with the five out spacing lineups. But that's the benefit of the amount of options

that you have on the roster in that front court. Like, that, like, Gobert has never had teammates with size like he will have in Minnesota. Like, Finch, Finch is going to be able to get. For reason.

Why is that? It's too big in this day and age in the NBA. One of them gets played off the court. The Boston just went to the NBA finals with Al Horford and Robert Williams. Right. And a lot of times they couldn't, by the time it got to the highest level, they couldn't play them together. Next year, Milwaukee could be back there with rolling out Brooke Lopez with Janice. They could throw it up three big line up sometimes.

Like, you don't like just. And they had to bail. for Portis. I mean, we can go through this across the board. You know? Where it's like by the time you get to the playoffs, it's really hard. It's really hard to play two.

I'm talking like guys that do most of their damage close. And Horford is more of an outside, you know, he guards people out to the three point line and he stretches the floor by shooting threes. You know, the reason he's more in the power forward.

roll when he's out there with Rob Williams. It's not like their twin-tows. And I understand that's how towns will be too. But sometimes Horford's defending the interior big. That's like this is what I mean. I think like that like the versatility Boston had, sometimes Horford would be defending on the posts. Other times he'd be chasing, you know, even stuff around.

You know what? Hey, look, Kevin, it might end up working out. And I may have to come back and just say I'm wrong. And we talked about out of this league is gone big and that you look around and you look at the bigs that you're going to have. to get past and the bigs that you're going to have to deal with. And yes, the Warriors aren't the greatest example of that, but size could really hurt them, right?

I could see how if you walk in with Towns and Gobert, now you're just sizing up so much that it's your advantage. I agree. That was one of their biggest weaknesses was rebounding. And now they have one of the best rebounders in Rudy Gober. But when we got to the highest level, it was the small balls. You know what I mean? It was...

It was... It was... It was... It was... It was... I mean, it was... But it was the Warriors versus the Mads. The Mavs got there, too.

Play Mazzie Kleeve at center. They also didn't have an option to go... They had no center. They didn't have an option, though, that made sense to go big. They didn't have a... Right, I know. I mean, they didn't have anybody.

They didn't... Maxi Kleeva. That was it. That was their choice. And he's not a big. Like, Cleba... Cleba's best role was winning defense. Well, and that ran out, too.

You know what I mean? by the time it got to Golden State. They got offensive rebounded to death because they just couldn't get the, even when they got the stop, they couldn't get the ball back. Let me ask you about the other trade that we have not spoken about yet

that happened after we last recorded, which is the Brockton deal. Malcolm Brogden going to Boston. I feel like that's a big one that probably hasn't gotten as much talk. I'm aware of his lack of availability in the past that has that has certainly changed people's minds about Malcolm Brogden.

That being said, if we're doing pie in the sky and we envision a healthy Malcolm Brogden, which might be a bit of a stretch, to me, I thought this was a great deal for Boston in terms of what they gave up and what they possibly got. To me, that's the kind of risk. Well, work-taking because you try to keep the kid healthy

as much as he possibly can. You know when he is healthy, he's really good. You know that playoff basketball many times becomes half-court basketball. And I think he fills a real need that they had last year. And again, I look up and I say, I gave up guys that weren't playing for me. When the going got the toughest,

these were unplayable players. And that's what I gave up. So I don't know, man. I really liked the Brogden deal. What about you? I love it for Boston. Like, he's mentioned the lack of availability, some of the long-term health concerns

with the foot and all that. True. But Progson's a damn good player, man. Like, he's just one of those connective pieces. Good passer, high IQ. knows how to play. He's going to fit right into that system quickly, just like Derek White did last year, and Brogden's a better creator,

a better shooter, a better scorer, and he can defend, you know, in their system. So I think for Boston, adding his ball handling presence, I believe there is a report out there that they view him as the sixth man coming off the bench. So you're upgrading from Peyton

Pratt and Pritchard with Brogden. I think for the Celtics giving up what they did, which was a 20-23 first, knee-smith, Tice and then, you know, salary fill in that deal. It's a grand slam deal for Boston in the sense that it's good value adding Brogden, which feels a need for that roster. I love it for the self-execine.

It feels very Haywardy, though, in terms of... The role that he'll play? And no, and I'm talking about in Charlotte, where it's like, wow, this guy, look how good this team is when this guy is playing. And their record with Hayward has been great. Look how good that team is when Gordon Hayward plays, but Gordon Hayward gets injured and Gordon Hayward stays injured, and what the hell were you expecting?

That's the only downside to this, in my mind, right? Is that you look up and you go, wow, the guy that has never stayed healthy isn't available for him. Surprise, surprise. Like, that's the real legitimate risk, and that is exactly why they were able to attain him for what seems like meager return. What do you think on E. Smith? You know, he came in that one time during the playoffs and blocked those shots and was like high energy.

And all I can remember is when it came to that draft, I talked to an NBA GM after Memphis drafted Desmond Bank. And I said, what do you think about this? And opposed to you. Yeah. And he said, the two best shooters that we saw. were the kid from Vanderbilt, Neesmith, and Bain. He said, that's what I'll tell you.

Like, I think those are the two best shooters in the entire draft. He got drafted to a place that is not, was not, I mean, you're playing two awesome guys, 48 minutes a game. And he's not necessarily a natural fit with them. But what do you think on Neesmith? Just still way too early to tell?

Do you think there's a chance Kneesmith becomes a really significant player in the league. Like, I guess that is the one piece of that that is fascinating to me. He said in his Exeter interview, he said it's mental, like the lack of success shooting. You know, I forget the exact comment. I'm paraphrasing here, but I remember him saying something like, I just need some time off, weeks off, take a step away from the game. He's like, I'm still confident in my shot, but I need to, you know,

just take a mental break to get back to doing it at a high level. And you would hope, you know, someone who might be putting too much pressure on themselves, getting anxious on the floor, that like it's not like a too big of a stage type of thing. Because he, you know, he shot the lights out in college. We know that guy's got a flamethrower. You remember that was such a weird year. I did make excuses for some of that class where it was like, wrong, I mean, your college season got canceled.

There was no weird. No, like the draft workouts were weird. The Summer League situation was absolutely, you know, training camps sucked. And it was like, I mean, all of it was, it was hard time to come into the league. And also, like, I think that year in Vanderbilt, that was the empty gym year, if I remember correctly. Or maybe the year that, no, that was 1920. So, no, it wasn't. 1920 was his last year of Vanderbilt.

So that was when the season was canceled. Yeah. So it was full gyms for his year. even play like SEC tournament. Remember they all showed up to the SEC tournament and then they were like, yeah, okay, we're not playing this. That's wild.

That was conference tournaments all got canceled. That's crazy. That day. But I'm just saying like, what a time. Everything about those kids, some have obviously overcome it, but everything about those kids coming into the league

in their whole situation with the draft and the draft workouts and the summer league. I mean, it's easy to forget just how frigging weird that all was. then the next year was a bubble year, and then it was another non-training camp, weird year. So there's some of these guys that got drafted, like, around then, that I still, like, think, man, if anything, there's going to come a time where everything starts to get, like, legit, normal and normalized.

And we may see some of these guys pop off that have not yet, because this has all just been a world win for, what, 20 months. Ridiculous. I can't imagine trying to, you know, it's been hard enough living with something stable going on in my own life. Like, imagine if you go from leaving college to becoming a pro, but being indoors and wearing a mask all the time while you're trying to do all of this at the same time and take on a new life. And it's like. And also you're 19, 20 years old. I know. You have all this new money in your life. life. Some of them may just not make it, but I'm saying if there was ever somebody young players

that deserve excuse, to me it's them. Yeah. Because we were just talking before we went on the air today about going out to Vegas for Summer League. It's the first time I've been in three years. I went last year. You did for a minute? Yeah, I did.

Yeah. Not for long, right? No, I don't think so. I think I went for like two nights or something like that. Yeah. And so it's the first time. a long time that I've been out there. But last year, it was still like masks, no parties, no get-togethers, no, you know,

Delta had just like, that was like the capital of Delta. Remember that? Yeah. Like right before we're about to go, I canceled my trip because they're like, yeah, it's the capital of Delta, like in the world. And I was like, oh my God. Yeah, I remember walking around the casino. I remember I don't feel bad saying this.

But the only person I remember not wearing a mask is like Michael Porter Jr. Is that right? Yeah, last August, that's what I remember. Oh, that is hilarious. Yeah, but this year is going to be much different. Nobody's going to be wearing masks. Yeah, right. It's going to be different.

I mean, I should say nobody. There will be people wearing masks. Well, we are going to be out there later in the week for NBA Summer League. What are you most excited? Who are you most excited? to see. Friends. Friends. You, you?

What about basketball ones? Our producer Jesse. Yeah, he's going to be out there. Matt Dollinger gets to meet him, my editor for the first time in person. You've never met your editor. I've never met Matt Dollinger in person, no. I mean, he got, Matt got hired during the pandemic, I think. I don't think he got hired.

If he got hired before the pandemic, it was shortly before it. That is crazy. I didn't know that. I mean, I don't, like, dude, the ringer hired a lot of people the last couple years. Wow. A lot of people. Wow. That have never met in person.

And a lot of them will be out there for sure. All right. How about basketball? Oh, basketball. Oh, yeah. That's right. Oh, that's what Vegas is about. You know what's crazy?

What? Not the highest guy I was, that I was on in the draft. I thought you were saying something else just there. I might be most interested to go out of my way to see Chet, though. Yeah, Chet. Really? I think he might be the guy. Like, I kind of feel like I, to me, he's got so much more intrigue than Pollo, Jabari, Jaden.

Like, I feel that Kegan Murray went off over the weekend in the California summer. Big game, yeah. Yeah. So, but a lot of those guys, like, I've, I've been really confident. about. And I'm not saying that I've never said that I think Jet's going to stink. I'm just saying to me there was, there's more questions about him and what he's going to look like on an NBA court and how it's going to hold up over the years than the others. That's just my opinion. So I think he might be like my greatest source of entry. Like I just want to see it in person and see what he looks like

against Summer League rosters, which are, yes, it's not the highest level of competition. But I do think Summer League changed too, where the competition is greater and the players keep getting better and better. And there's a lot of guys that now play Summer League that are trying to fight their way into the league. And so I'm interested in seeing him. I think he's the one that I would probably go out of my way for. Saturday night, Chris, Chet versus Javari Smith, Monday night,

Chet versus Paolo Bancaro. Amazing. Those are the first two games on OKC's summer league schedule. So we get to, you know, kill two birds with one stone with those games. You get to watch Chet,

but you also get to watch Javari Smith. You get to watch Chet, you get to also get to watch Bencaro. And you know those guys are all going to go at each other. All right, they better. Yes. They better. I want to see them matched up.

I don't want to watch. You know what's crazy? I think the last. time I was at Summer League was Zion. Oh, that was the Zion here. Remember me and you watched with Titus and Tate? Yeah. Zion.

I think it was. That's the last time I've been to Vegas Summer League was the Zion year. I remember when that earthquake happened, I didn't feel the earthquake because I was hustling out of the arena. I was like in a fast, brisk walk

moving out of the arena because the trade, because I needed a rush back to my hotel to record an emergency podcast with Chris Ryan, I think it was. It was a legit earthquake. Yeah, and I didn't feel it because I was moving. I was hustling. And I felt like the last

tremor. I remember outside. It was like, what is that? But that was all. We had come back from the arena and I was with my producer and we ran into Sharon Jackson's dad. He played 13 years in NBA, Sharon Jackson's senior. And he was like, have you guys eaten? We're like, no. He's like,

I'm going to go into this pizza place. So we go into this pizza place and it's like bar stools. It's at the aria. It's a good pizza place. Anyway, the whole damn thing starts shaking. Like, I'm on a bar stool and like everything gets like super wobbly. And like you can see there's like this big like apron that's like hanging down in the in the deal like a curtain that's hanging down in the pizza place. And it's like swaying back and forth. And I'm like, what the hell is going on? He was like, that's an earthquake. He knew We had never been in one either. And he was like, it's an earthquake.

And I was like, are we going to die? What is cool? It lasted a long time, dude. It was a scary one. I remember it registered like seriously. Yeah, it was a big one. Didn't it shoot out the lights? Yeah, and the jumbotron shook.

Yeah, dude, that ain't it. That ain't. Not an earthquake guy? No. No, no. I like things I can hide from. Right? Like a storm or something like that. Like I can, at least I can feel like I'm huddled up in a corner safe.

What do you have down there in Tennessee? Like tornadoes? Do they have those down there? Lots. That's terrifying. See, I've never, I'd get scared being of those. You can't hide from those, can you? Yeah, I mean, you can drive away?

You can't get used to it. You know what I mean? Just like you get used to earthquakes, I suppose. I don't know. I don't think I'd ever get used. get used to that. I don't want any part of it. And the Northeast,

you get used to the snow and the inclement weather. Now that think about it, Zion is the last time I've been to Summer League. Wow. That's crazy. Remember when he ripped the ball

away from Kevin Knox and they dumped it? Do I remember? It said everything about what was going to happen with Kevin Knox. Yeah, and that also caused the earthquake.

It was, yeah. Dude, that was so hardcore. He only played that so many minutes. I know. He played like four minutes. That was the most. Give me that ball, bitch.

It's my ball. Just snashed it from him and Knox is just standing there like, what just happened to me? And I'm like, okay, I'm out on Knox. It's over. It's done. You think we get a moment like that in Summerlee, Jet just ripping the ball?

I just saw somebody signed him. Who was it? Somebody just signed Kevin Knox. Seriously. Kevin Knox signed with Detroit, right? Oh, the pistons. Yeah, Detroit.

Let's go. pair him up. With Killian. Do you remember I'm a Pistons fan now? Yeah. I love Cade. They got Cade, they got Ivy, they got Bagley. They paid Bagley.

They got Isaiah Stewart, who I'm going to become best friends with because I don't want to be his enemy. I like Seneek Bay. They got some good players on that team. They got some real players. Yeah, they get some players. They're going to be, I got feeling they're going to be my league past team. How about Killian Hayes? Yeah, Killian Hayes.

Yeah, Killian Hayes. Always rooting for him. Yeah. Thank you. Doctor defense. And I'm now rooting for Bagley too. We're together, Chris. We're pistons guys.

You know, we got pitched at all last season. Like, what are you going to talk about the pistons? We love the pistons. We're talking about it this year. More to come. Well, see, usually the games I'm watching regularly come on at 7 o'clock. So I always, there's every year, there's somebody I watch at 6. They come on at 6 Central, a lot.

And so obviously Charlotte was a big. big one for me because I love that announcer and I like watching LaBello and that team was pretty fun. Last year was Cleveland. Loved watching Garland and Mobley. Always root for old friend of the pod, J.B. Bickerstaff. And I like to see him be successful. But this year I think it's going to be Detroit. I think that's going to be my sixth central team.

Like of that first slate of games that comes on, I think I'm going to find myself watching them more than... I like it. More than the others, right? I like it. Because the Knicks come on, and I didn't really care about it, Brooklyn. You know, a lot of those,

whatever the 7 Eastern, 6 o'clock Central games are. You know one other player? I mean, there's just such as you mentioned, the Pistons with Jade and Ivy. How about Benedict Matherin with the Pacers? Turn up. I'm looking forward to watching him in Summer League, but also during the season,

Mathern with Halliburton. I mean, come on. That's going to be good basketball to watch. it's going to be fun. Yeah. Who else they draft? If they just draft anybody else, they usually,

right, if you got a high pick in the first round, they usually got a high pick in the second round. They have another one? They drafted the Gonzaga point guard

second round. I think they landed him. Oh. Neymar. Neem. I can't remember. How do you for it? I want to hear you for us.

Neymart. Neymart. We'll go with that. Neymart. Neymart. He's solid It's kind of Tyos Jonesy

I just kind of run the team I know he had a crap game there at the end against Arkansas But I remember him He's a solid player I thought he was good All right So maybe that'll be a pretty fun watch too

Certainly I would like to see Matherin also And for what it's worth It's Nimhard Nemhart I was close I don't know names I have no idea That was not that far off

Nemehard, Nymard, we're good. It was close enough that Bill Simmons would be jealous of my pronunciation. All right. Thank you to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always. All three of us, Jesse, Kevin and myself will all be out in Las Vegas. Get to meet Jesse in person for the first time. Yeah, I've never met Jesse in person. So it's going to be the get-together of all get-togethers.

It will be out there for Friday's episode. live from Las Vegas. Kevin, Jesse, I will see you guys out in Vegas on Friday. Hell yeah, see you in Vegas.