The Mismatch - Are the Jazz Buyers or Sellers? Plus: Trade Targets for the Kings, and Why the Spurs Should Trade for Trae Young

Episode Date: January 16, 2024

Verno and KOC discuss the Martin Luther King Day slate of games, beginning with the Grizzlies' upset over the Warriors and G.G. Jackson’s breakout game (05:20). They then move on to the scorching-hot Jazz team and debate whether they'll be buyers or sellers at the trade deadline (22:15). The guys also discuss the Cavs' hot run despite being without Darius Garland and Evan Mobley, before discussing the trade rumors surrounding Dejounte Murray and the Spurs (29:50). Does it make sense for the Spurs to reunite with Murray? Next, they discuss other potential trade targets for the Kings if Sacramento can’t get a deal done for top target Pascal Siakam (45:42). You can read KOC’s article mentioned in this episode here. Got a question for Verno and KOC? Send them an email at [e-mail]! Or you can send the guys a tweet @ChrisVernonShow and @KevinOConnorNBA! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please check out http://theringer.com/RG to find out more, or listen to the end of the episode for additional details. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? It's Austin Rivers from Offguard. And I've got some exciting news. Offguard hosted by me and my guide Pasha Gigi is officially moving to our own podcast feed. We are now dropping two shows every week. Me and Pasha go way back and talk so much hoops already that we figured it was time to fire up the mics and let you in on these conversations. Every week, Pasha and myself will hit on the biggest stories happening around the league. Tap into the show twice a week on our new Offguard feed on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast. Welcome to the mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon and joining me as he does every Monday night from the ringer.com.

It's Kevin O'Connor, A.K.A. Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Colmer, Kevin O'Chammer, Kevin O'Chamrae, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Fee. I listened to your interview with Ozzy Smith and I very much enjoyed it. You were clearly happy and then he made fun of your cowboys at the end. Tough. Tough. It was a tough deal for me. I was so overwhelmed. For those of you that listened to us on regular occasion, you knew that Martin Luther King Day in Memphis is a huge deal always. And now with the NBA, there is an annual Martin Luther King Day game. They have a symposium, which is brought by the National Civil Rights Museum, which is in Memphis, Tennessee. And every year, there are different honorees. what they have done within the community and their advancement of many different things. And so this year it was like Calvin Hill, former Dallas Cowboy, who was also the father of Grant Hill. Renee Montgomery, who was a former WNBA player, who is now a co-owner of the Atlanta Dream.

One of the greatest scorers in NBA history, Alex English, was there. And then Ozzy Smith, who was my childhood hero. He was the guy that I had the posters on the wall of. He was the guy that I idolized. And I have never met Ozzie Smith in my life. But then with him being one of the honorees this year, he was scheduled to come into studio with me for the Chris Vernon show that I do. And sure enough, he did.

Now, I will say, I got very, very lucky, Kevin, because we go on the air at noon. I, he was scheduled to join us at the top of the show. He showed up at 1145. Oh, so you showed up early. Yeah. And so all and so and and imagine this. I am walking down the hallway towards my studio and he just walks through the doorway.

And I was like, you know what I mean? And so all that like super nervous energy, all of that like awkwardness. I had 15 minutes before we, or we get to talk, I got to talk to him before we whenever went on. And I'm not going to belabor this much, but we did mention it on the show and I told you it was coming up. I will just say that I think about this a lot,

especially now with children, that I think as a parent, you always want your kids to look up to people that are worthy of being looked up to. and I think that as you grow in even into adulthood, you hope that the people that you looked up to were worthy of being looked up to. And if you ever got that opportunity to meet those people in person,

that they would, it would be so hard to live up to whatever expectation you had in your mind. And yet every expectation I ever had was absolutely blown away. He was the sweetest, kindest. He was the best. And I'm getting a little weird here talking about this

just because if you knew how many times I tried to act like him, if you know how many times I threw a baseball against my parents' garage, you know, trying to mimic him, if you saw how many collectibles I have still to this day that I've never thrown away that are Ozzy Smith things, you wouldn't believe it.

And so I had that feeling of just overwhelming joy. Like, you know, I'm glad he was the guy. I'm glad he was the guy because that's a good man who cares deeply about people. And it was cool. It was a real moment. And I needed that badly after that ridiculous Cowboys' Tobaccoll yesterday. And yes, as you said, I know the video. was posted, even my childhood hero had to take a jab at me after what took place yesterday.

Even after you showed on the old VHS tape. What a swing of emotions. What a swing of emotions. So good. I mean, hey, at least the Grizzlies ended up beating the Warriors. I mean, get Dr. Raymond Greenback. I guess he doesn't fix everything right away. Well, I thought it was hilarious.

If you go back and you watch his first foul, everybody, was waiting to see. So he gets kind of trucked and they call a block on him, right? And this is the moment that demonstrative Draymond jumps up, gets in somebody's face and he's like,

he did not look at his teammate. He didn't look at the bench. He didn't even look at the ref. He went straight down to the block and set up in his spot to rebound a free throw. Just

didn't even acted like it didn't even happen. Like the foul wasn't even called. And I'm like, huh, who knows? Maybe the rehab or whatever is it. We got to change guy because it was, it was literally, if you go back and watch the first foul, he is, he's called for a block as he kind of slides over. And I've seen that play a thousand times with him over the years. And it's a bang, bang.

And it's like, this is one where he's going to get mad. And not only did I get mad, he just set up his spot. And you do wonder, but what level of edge is it going to take off of him a little bit? That did run through my mind, right? Because part of the Draymond experience is the demonstrative attitude and the punking you out and the all of it, the energy that comes from it. But man, I, they are lamard in hell, Kevin. I don't even know what to tell you. They are athletically deficient, which is what showed up in this game. They have like no good perimeter defenders. It's really crazy to watch compared to what we've seen in the years past with Golden State.

Well, you just got all these bench guys, these guys that were two-way guys, Vince Williams and Gigi Jackson, and Jaron Jackson are all there there on the front line at one point. And it's like, Kaminga's a hopper. But the rest of those guys, like they are not athletically superior to you. And there was, you know, some of them are good basketball players, for sure. Obviously, they've still got one of the greatest basketball players in the world.

But man, just seeing them in person for the first time this year, I was like, boy, he ain't got much with him. It is really weird how fast that went. And I know it's a game by game. and some games Clay can look okay. Some games Wiggins can look okay. And some games you can get excited about pods or comminga or whatever else. But Memphis had one starter. And I juxtapose this to tell you since we last spoke.

I have seen three games in person since we last recorded. I saw the Clippers in person. And I walked out of that arena going, they are the ones that, if they stay healthy, they're the ones that are playing Denver. I thought they were as good a team as I have seen this year where I didn't, they won their game going away. And I didn't, I'm not kidding you, I don't even think they tried.

I walked out and I'm like, I don't even think Kauai or Paul George broke a sweat. And that was crazy. And Hardin's just fine, not taking that many shots and just getting them organized. Zubot has got this new lease on life playing with Hardin. And then Westbrook comes off the bench. The Zubots transformation compared to earlier in the season, it really goes to show what a point guard can do for a center. Zubots did not look good at all early in the season. Like granted he was dealing with a back issue at the time.

But, like, Hardin has made him look better than he has in his entire career. Like, what a transformation just mid-year. You see the Zubots clip on the Paul George podcast? He said, how Hardin, like, first, first practice. First practice, he says to Zoo after he's like, hey, you want to spend 20, 25 minutes with me after practice and work on our pick and roll? And ZooBot said in the interview, he's like, I thought it was going to be a one-time thing. It's something they do after every practice that they work on their pick-and-roll together and other

guards, other bigs join in and on it now. But it just goes to show, I guess, what they're doing behind the scenes as well to develop their chemistry together. And it's translating immediately on the court, too. So I thought they were awesome. who win in their last 20 games, they're 16 and 4. They've got the number one offensive rating in the NBA. They've got the number four net rating in the NBA.

I mean, it's not just me that happened to catch them on the right night. They have been devastating over the last 20 games of the season when they've gotten things together. The next night I saw the Knicks. Now, the Knicks were without Jalen Brunson, but even without Jalen Brunson, I walked away going, boy, they are exactly what I thought they're going to be. when you get to the playoffs, they are going to be a bitch to deal with. And mega impressed with how the Mitchell Robinson thing

is not nearly as devastating as it could have been because Hartinstein is, he's doing a lot of the Zubot stuff. He has got some big, big rebounding and production nights. I know they got dropped today by Orlando. But, and, and an OB, he's obviously in the mix with them now. I'm just saying,

in the three games I saw, like, Golden State ain't close to those. They ain't close to what I saw with the Clippers. And they're not, they're not the Knicks. Like, they're just not that level of team when I, when I, when I saw all three, because that's the last three I saw. And I walked out impressed with the Clippers, wildly impressed with the Clippers. Wildly impressed with the Clippers. The Knicks, I thought, boy, and that's without Brunson, and they're going to be exactly what I thought they were going to be, which is a team that you're, that's not a fun draw at all.

And this Warriors team, I walked out of the arena going, what the hell? bro, they don't have, there is no Desmond Bay. There is no John Moran. There is no Brandon Clark. There is no Stephen Adams. They have no Marcus Smart. They have one starter.

One. They're playing G.G. Jackson, Vince Williams, Jacob Gildiard. And they lost by nine. It was crazy. It was Darren Jackson Jr. in the Memphis Hustle, pretty much. And go look at Jared Jackson.

He was four for 20. So it wasn't Jaron that did him in. It was really, it was not Triple J. it was double G, Gigi Jackson. Oh my God. Second game in a row. He was good versus the Knicks.

I didn't watch the Grizzlies next game. I just went back and watched all of G. You don't say. I just want, I mean, I didn't spend my Friday night doing that. It's Saturday, but I don't blame you if you never saw it. I went back and watched all of Gigi Jackson's offensive possessions. And he replicated it again today. I watched most of today's game.

I'm flipping between different stuff. But the Gigi looks good in his last two games with Memphis. It really goes to show how much situation can matter. Because even though his numbers in the G League shooting the ball aren't nearly as good as they've been the last two games, The fact he's progressing, like he had to play, I think, in that Knicks game where I saw him block a shot or grab a rebound. And then he just goes, full send, sprint, down the court, you know, to calling for the ball and transition. And it resulted in nothing. It was a missed corner three by one of his teammates.

And I'm like, dude, the hustle. The intensity is there. Play after play after play. It's not just spot up shooting and attacking closeouts. I'm very, very impressed by Gigi Jackson. And I'm glad also that he got that post-game interview with Shaq, where he had that moment afterwards. It was very wholesome.

It was just cool to see. Nice to see him, you know, grow and develop in this Memphis situation. And this is the type of silver linings like we talked about last week after the jaw injury, whether it's Bain who's out now or Triple J or someone like Gigi Jackson getting more touches. There are, you know, positives that could come from, obviously, what is a disappointing season for the grouse. you would love the innocence of this kid too because much like how I now in my older age I'm sitting here talking about like meeting your heroes that's how Gigi Jackson acts every game after they played the mavericks he got in like at the end of the game

then after the game he like ran up to Kyrie Irving and like sort of talking in his ear and stuff and then he hey and then he went up to Luca because Luca and Kyrie both came hey now imagine this Luca and Kyrie and Kyrie both came over to Jop to just say, that was the first game after. And he was like, I really feel terrible for you, blah, blah, blah. Just like talking to him.

Gigi Jackson kind of like walked in the middle of it. And he's like, hey, you know, me, right? And they're like, who the hell is this guy?

But he's like every game meeting his heroes now. And then that moment perfectly summed it up, where he hears Shaquille O'Neal's voice through the headphones, and he just can't believe it. He just turned 19. He is the youngest player in the NBA. And back-to-back 20-something point performances is pretty unbelievable. I'm going to ask you a question, too, because I think this is a fascinating one.

I was with, for those that don't know, the commissioner of the G-League is Sharif Havdu, Rahim, who I've gotten to know. And I saw Sharif, I think I mentioned that I'd seen him. when I was at the in-season tournament. Yeah, I did, because we had run into Jeff Foster and Austin Crozier. They were there for the Pacers or whatever. When I was talking to him, one of the things you're talking about was Gigi Jackson, who was playing very well in the G-League.

And I was asking him, I said, I wonder if there's going to come a time, because a scout had posed this to me. they said if he was in this year's draft he would go in the top 10 like this is a bad draft right and he was playing extremely well as an 18 year old in the G league and and they said I wonder if that will ever happen

where a guy has a crap year in college or maybe colleges didn't working out stop for him whatever and instead of transferring actually goes to the the G League to improve draft stock, proves himself there, and then enters the NBA draft. Instead of getting drafted whatever, 47th and getting a two-way contract and then trying to work your way up. I know.

It's complicated because, like, in theory, if he had done that, he might go to the Ignite, and the Ignite are an absolute disaster, right? Like their team is losing every game. Their prospects that, you know, everybody had ranked in the top 10. Like, I might not have any of them in my top 10 with my big board drops next week. Like, I'm not sure where to put Holland and Bozellus. It's hard to judge those guys in that situation in comparison to guys like you're mentioning G.G. Jackson, if he were in this situation and you're judging what he's done with the Memphis Hustle, he's in an environment surrounded by a, a better supporting cast, a better infrastructure than the Ignite have.

And he's, and never mind all the college basketball players, like Kevin McCuller with Kansas, one of the best teams in the country. And he's one of the faces of that team. Like, it's very complicated to judge those guys compared to some of the international prospects that have chemistry built up over years and this motion offense that they run where there's, where there's continuity. Like, it's hard. So the Ignite overall as a system, I think there's benefits to it.

We're seeing benefits over the years. Guys have gotten better there. But at the same time, I wonder if eventually seeing a guy like Holland and Bozell not perform up to expectations perhaps could lead to players deciding not to go there. Whereas for Gigi Jackson, if he had been able to, signing with a non-ignite G-League team, would probably be more beneficial than going to the Ignite. Totally fair. It's an interesting situation.

It is like a tough, tough situation for the NBA to have to handle right now. At the same time, though, you know, the Warriors should be able to handle Gigi Jackson better than they did. Like, they are such a disaster right now.

No juice. They got no juice, Kev. No, no heart. No heart on defense. No. And after the game was like,

defense is a, about individual players coming together. We have no good individuals. I'm paraphrasing completely. He didn't say that directly, but he was criticizing the individual efforts and abilities of their defense. And it's true, but at the same time,

their offense is a clunky mess out there. Their offense has never looked this bad what it is right now. And I think that largely, the warrior's struggling offense largely is on Steve Kerr. At this point, he's still running a system. that they've had for a decade now. Stefan Curry is running around

screens for 40 minutes per game. And I think Curry, he said recently, I'm not going to run 70 pick and rolls a game. How about you run 30 or 40? They don't have anybody else that really like handles the ball either.

You know what I mean? Like, he just creates for everybody else. Yeah. It's a lot of issues. He's a creator. Yeah. I'm not saying that's going to solve everything, but sometimes simplifying things for your personnel could lead to better results.

Trace Jackson Davis is a great. Well, because it's always the second pass with them, right? Second and third pass. And that's why they kept on having to go get veterans. So they go get auto porter and they go get whatever and they go, right? Just veterans that can play smart basketball keep it moving. But maybe with a guy like Trace Jackson Davis, who's an elite lob threat at-room finisher, use him with Steph more often.

You have Draymond back, the two-man game stuff between Steph and Draymond. I mean, look, in the big games that have mattered most throughout the Warriors history, when they were at their best, even last year in the postseason, what do they go to? They run Steph pick and rolls over and over and over and over again. So if you want to save this season where you're in a situation where what you've done at the best is not working anymore. So maybe simplifying things is something that in the meantime could help. and I don't think Steve Kerr has been willing to make that adjustment so far to help the offense.

And obviously, even if you help the offense, that doesn't solve any of your issues on defense. That's still a whole other issue. That's largely due to personnel more than anything else. But I think they got to simplify things on offense this season with this personnel that they have. Get in on all the NBA buzzer-beaters, ankle breakers, and tomahog jams with Fandul, America's number one sportsbook. Right now, new customers get warm. $150 bucks and bonus bets guaranteed when you place a $5 bet. So you've been thinking about joining Fanduil.

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Instead of talking about somebody that's not going right for, yo, are we getting to the point where like if the jazz do end up making a trade we're going to be like, don't break this up. Hey, Chris, I told you last week they're not a bad team. They've got eight wins in 2024.

They are nine and one in their last 10. They have more wins than the sons, the Lakers, and the Warriors. How crazy is that? Unbelievable. Oh, my God. Well, and I thought it was, you know, playing really well, keep playing hard, collection of a bunch of good players that then now have come together and it's build up trade stock build up trade stock build up trade stock because this is for the greater good right you you just keep

on building up their value which is exactly what they did last year they were in a good spot too and they still move Mike Conley and they still I don't think they're going to move their core pieces right but you do wonder with with Clarkson and with Sexton and with with some of these other guys that have been fantastic for them, you wonder if you sit back and you go, you know what? Like, all right, we're not going to be a seller unless the price is really high on this stuff.

Because this is a highly competitive team that we're going to be able to augment as, as time goes on. But we don't need to be fishing around finding. you know, picks and assets for the future necessarily as you may have thought coming into the season where it's like, all right, get these guys playing well, build up their trade value, and then you can, as their value goes up, you can fill up the war chest even more with what you're need for however you're going to rebuild out for the future. But, I mean, the job Will Hardy is doing, the job that that collection of players is doing is rather

unbelievable. For them to, for them to be in this spot and Markin again, he's another, what, 32 and 10 or whatever he does tonight, they are, uh, no, you are right. Not only are they not bad, they have been absolutely awesome, awesome. And it does make you wonder, you know, what they do going into the next month. I still think with them, you know, like, it's not necessarily a bad thing to say move Jordan Clarks. But Colin Sexton, ever since he's been moved into the starting lineup and given heavier touches and more responsibility, that guy has been absolutely sensational for Utah. I love him. He's like the scoring ability with him, but also playing a controlled brand of basketball, keeping turnovers down, running that offense today alongside Chris Dunn,

who is going back to last season was one of the better stories I felt in the league. He became a good player for the jazz last year, and he's carried that over with a lesser role this year, granted, compared to what he had last year, but Don's been very, very good for them and spot minutes. So I think Will Hardy has found the right mix of guys around Lowry Market and even Fontecio. His minutes have increased over the course of the season. and he's been a good two-way presence for them.

He's found the right mix of guys, the right balance between developing youth, because you still see Keonté George out there getting minutes. Like in that Lakers game, Keante George, their rookie point guard, drafted in the middle of the first round. He's been up and down this year. He had some big moments earlier in the season as a playmaker.

He was like really flashy passer. He had a 30-point game, and then he got hurt the next day. But in that game against the Lakers on Saturday night, he's inserted into the third quarter, his typical rotation. He hits some big shots, makes some passes, he's putting an effort on defense. And what does Will Hardy do? Plays him the final 17 straight minutes of the game.

He rolls with him the remainder of the game. So I think Will Hardy is doing a perfect job at like finding the mix of veterans to put out there while still focusing in development of like George and like Baji, young guys coming off the bench. Walker Kessler has five blocks in the fourth quarter tonight. Like, he's doing both at the same time in finding the right mix. And after a slow start to the year where it was more like experimenting and figure things out, I think the Jazz have found it.

And you're right. Now that puts them in a unique position because you're a young team that has some players that have appeal for trades. So I look forward to seeing what that front office does. I think ultimately you do what you did last year, right? You do, well, they didn't obviously continue winning last year. you do what you did last year in the sense of, they kept it around. The older guys,

you built up their value, so now Dunn has value to someone that is a good team. And Clarkson still always has value to a good team. But then you look and you go, but wait, Sexton and Markinen can fit this timeline.

Even in the course of as we're building this thing up. And so now we have sexton and we have marketing. and we have Kessler. Just turned 25 this month. Right. And we've got George. And we've got, right?

And so those are guys, but like the veteran guys are the ones that are kind of swooped in, swooped out. And they don't fit the timeline of what, whenever you're going to win, you know, whatever product you are going to build out to. Because they're obviously taking this at the right pace.

But yeah, they keep on finding. new contributors and you just got to give them credit because a lot of teams can start to sleepwalk when you get around to this middle of the season in January and they are punishing you if you don't come to play them. I mean, a lot of good wins too. A lot of good wins. They're super impressive.

Their coach. I mean, is Finn fantastic. And one of the names we just, that throws name out there, but also Kelly Olinich. Like, that's another name of people we're talking about in trade rumors, but he's been really good off the bench for them. So, like, I think with Utah, they're definitely one of those really, really interesting teams. And also, the flip side of this is like we always talk about all the picks OKC has. The Jazz also for Gobert and Four Mitchell have a ton of future picks. So the Jazz, if they wanted to be buyers, they could decide to be buyers.

And they could build around these guys that they currently have rather than being the team, the trades out veterans, those players could instead be salary fill in trades looking for upgrades. So I don't think you should discount that possibility for the jazz, even though this is more a buyer's market right now. Like, not a lot of teams are selling right now. So I don't think the jazz have a move out there that they're going to necessarily jump on. I'm just mentioning that because I think we often forget about the fact that they traded two all-star caliber players.

They weren't supposed to win this soon. And yet they are. and they're in a position where they could try to build if they want. Another team whose trajectory might have changed more recently in the way that we analyze this stuff week in, week out is Cleveland. You know, we mentioned them briefly last week as a team that was like, hey, man, they're kind of winning some games. Well, now it's up to five in a row. And you have Donovan Mitchell with another 34 and 7. And they are doing this without, you know, they've been doing it without the two key components.

and it does make you think about, we thought about like how, how would they alter things? How would they change things? The trick's going to be to be able to be awesome when they are fully formed, but you got to give them credit because it looked like,

are they just going to be middle of the pack, right? They're not really in that, you know, it didn't feel like they're in that class, maybe with the five that get talked about the most where you've got Milwaukee and Boston and Philly, and Miami. And then I think the Knicks kind of started

to get in that conversation. And I think Cleveland's like got to be solidly in there now. We will see how they look when they bring their guys back. But I've been super impressed because they were kind of in that malaise kind of right in the middle.

We're like, man, are they going to have to break up Mowbly and Allen? And obviously they've been doing it without. But I do think that it's been another reminder of how truly awesome Mitch is. Mitchell is a big time, big time star that on most nights, he can be the best player on the

floor in any given game. He can be that guy. And so he's been amazing. And I know you highlighted Jared Allen last week, but you got to give it to Cleveland, man. You know, other teams may be kind of sleepwalking through some of these games, but they are getting win after win. It's now up to five, and they've been playing a lot better for the last month. They've won 10 out of 13 games. Jared Allen is basically a 20 and 13 guy with four assists per game during that entire stretch. Donovan Mitchell, like a 28 point per game, six assists, five rebound guy over that stretch

on absurd efficiency. The fact that you remove two players and Evan Mobley and Darius Garland, who are all historic caliber or all defensive team caliber in the case of Mowgli, and you get better from that, it does raise a philosophical thought with Cleveland. Well, what do we take from the success of this recent run? Is this an outlier of a successful run here where we're beating up on the wizards and the nets and the bulls today and some lesser teams? Or is there something to pull from this in terms of the way in which the team is operating and the way some of the individuals are performing. It's probably a little bit of both that what we're seeing here.

I just think it's, but I do think, but I do think, Chris, the overlap that we talked about before the season is popping up here where that has been removed and there's a balance in the lineups that are being played now. So, yep, I think with Cleveland that there is quite a lot to learn from this with the way in which they're performing here, and it should probably inform some of the decisions that they do make moving forward. That's right. It's stars and role players. It's the way it works.

And the hardest thing to do is to get guys that, you know, to take on a new role, right? Celtics have been pulling that off super successfully by putting in. Now, they've got one, like, true role player who is a star star in his role,

at Derek White, right? But getting Porzingia, to do what he does, getting holiday to do what he does, while you know that the lion's share of shots on the majority of nights are going to go to the guys that have been there for the longest, the two-wing players. And I think that many times you can see when you've got a collection of highly talented players that aren't the most natural fit,

when it looks good, it looks amazing. and when it looks bad, it looks like, man, they don't have the guy that just sets the screen, the guy that just moves the ball, the guy that, right? Okay, for instance, that New Orleans team, who's been great recently, I know they took a loss to Dallas, you know, but they went against Dallas before, when they were down some guys. It feels to me always when he's using lineups that augment with some role players, or when they've got some guys sitting out,

it always looks better. Now, sometimes when it's fully formed and it's all cracking, it looks devastating. But it always looks better when one of those guys is out or two of those guys is out, or I'm watching them and they've got Trey Murphy out there, they got Alvarado out there. They've got or Larry Nance is out there, right? There's some more guys that are doing the other stuff, the non-star basketball plays. And I do think that's kind of, I think you're right. the Cleveland's kind of falling into that.

You got a bunch of guys like, you know who's, you know where the show runs. And they can play with just that, right? Got an awesome big finisher. They've got an elite level dynamite guard. And then everybody else could play off of that. And so, I don't know. It's hard to kind of, I think,

assimilate everybody back into the mix. But we'll see. I certainly, they've got my attention, though, for sure. Let's go to some of the other things. Oh, well, I guess anything else that happened today, I thought it was fascinating you wrote about the Hawks and kind of what they could be doing, but also how this story about the Spurs may be looking at Murray.

You're like, man, Spurs should be looking at Trey Young. And I was, I don't know if you happened to see that Trey Young in his two games against San Antonio has averaged 40 and a half points, 13 and a half assists and five rebounds. He is like, so if anybody would think Trey Young's awesome,

it should be saying Antonio. How about Trace's comment after the game, Chris, where he's like, oh, sometimes I feel bad for Wemby that he's open and they don't get on the ball. You think you read your article? Maybe. Maybe he did.

But, but I, Tray was, that was a weird game. Like, the Hawks are up big and they, they blew the lead. The Spurs, Popovich sat some of the starters at halftime. And then Wembe came out in the second half and he was, I mean, the stuff Wembe was doing on in the court. It was one of those, one of those stretches where you're like, oh, my God, this guy is something we've never seen. I got to hear about this. Because I didn't get to see this. He had zero at halftime and ended up with 26 and 13.

He just did literally everything on the floor. I mean, defensively, the rim protection with the hustle plays and the block shots offensively. I mean, he scored a lot of points in different ways, like where they're inbounding the ball to him, lobbing it up to him. Like, they were just force-feeding the ball to him at the rim, and he was catching it, catching it and finishing it. He had this play a pass where I think he went into a pull-up jumper from like the left elbow area or something like that. And like at the top of his jump where the ball is, I don't know, 15 feet in there it feels like he just whips a pass to a cutter inside.

It was like, whoa, dude. He just, he did everything, everything to try to bring the Spurs back into that game alongside Sohan, who was awesome in that game for them. It's like, if, They had better performances from Devin Vassell and Kelton Johnson, who were combined three of 22 in the game. It might have been a different result. But ultimately, they dug their hole far too deep in that first half after the Hawks just absolutely crushed them. But, I mean, still, it became an entertaining game

after watching Wembe come back in the middle of that third quarter. He was, like, it was crazy, crazy what he's doing. So let's just set aside the whole Trey fantasy, which I don't think it's crazy. what you wrote. And let's just deal with the one that has been reported. I did not glean from the article that you put up that you think that that's the best idea. That yes, getting somebody solid to go with Wemba Yama is something that is a wise thing to do and would be best for franchise and best for Victor,

but getting the value and, you know, the whole giving them their picks back might not be the right thing to do in this because in your mind, like those hawks picks might end up being pretty good because they're, they're the wrong way. They're going the wrong way. They have,

they have the hawks picks in 25 and 27 with the right. to swap in 26. Why would you, why would you bet, bet on the Hawks to be good in those years at this point where they're clearly a team that's declining right now. They are, they are below 500 team. They're in, on the play-in bubble. Why would you bet on that team to get better? I'd want to keep their picks than, rather than give any of them back for DeJante Murray, who you traded for a reason. You traded the Jean-Tay Murray, A, because you wanted the tank to go get Victor Webbenyama,

which you did. But B, you just didn't see him as a future part of your team. You viewed him as an inefficient score. You viewed him as a guy who was inconsistent on defense. He hadn't reached the heights on defense that he did earlier in his career. You traded him

for a reason, so I just don't see why you'd want to get him back compared to the option of waiting for somebody else, whether that's his teammate Nate Trey Young, who would be an absolute perfect fit next to Victor Webbenyama or somebody else, or just building slower through the draft using those Hawks picks, using your own picks. I just, I don't think trading for DeJante Murray would be the right choice for the Spurs. I think I'd rather let him go somewhere else and see how that Hawks situation develops

so you can properly gauge what the value is of those two picks you have from the Hawks plus the swap. Yeah. And, you know, they've got the mission of building out around Trey Young, who is still having another individually, you know, fantastic statistical year. He's been great. He was very inefficient early in the season, and he's been on fire ever since then. And he's playing the best defense he ever has. He's hustling. He's taking charges.

He's rotating. Like, his defense has been at least admirable. That's all you can ask for. And to your point, it seems like, and I know it's been kind of a. trek over the last few, but it seems like him and Quinn Snyder totally on the same page. Great. From what I understand, they get along tremendously, those two. So they got to build out around him, and they've had

one hit. The Jalen Johnson kid is a hit. Like a big time. He looks great. Because he had 16, 10, 7 assists, 6 steals. Like, you know, you need wings in this league, and that would be the thing to get really excited about it. It's like, okay, you know, if I'm, if I'm a Kyle Corver and Quinn Snyder and Landryfield, all those guys I'm sitting at a room, I'm like, all right, how we have got to figure out how to build out around this guy. We've gone the wrong way. And for whatever reason, the bogey thing doesn't work

and the Murray thing doesn't work. And we're moving on from Capella. The DeAndre Hunter thing's been a debacle. But here we go. We've got one of the great players in the NBA, a guy that scores like Hill, a guy that assists like hell, and we've got him locked in, and we got him on the same page with the coach. We got Jalen. Now, what else? Yeah. I mean, unfortunately

I think that's what I'm doing, right? I'm going, okay? It's the only thing I'm married to. Yeah. I mean, yes, he is the guy you're married to, and then with Trey, Tray, you are married to him, but you're also open to moving at some point later this year. I don't think trading

Trey before the deadline makes a lot of I don't think it's realistic. I think you need to play out this year. See what you can do for Dejante Murray. See what you can get. And then you enter the draft. If you miss the playoffs, maybe you want to miss the playoffs this year.

Maybe you want to get a lottery pick to increase your draft capital entering the summer. And then you can make a big trade to bolster the team around Trey Young and around Jalen Johnson. And if not, if that doesn't pan out,

then maybe you could trade Trey for a haul and have a young, promising team. maybe you trade them to the spurs, get all of your picks back, and then you can tank your way to top lottery odds and two loaded draft classes in 2025 and 2026 with premier draft prospects that are rewards at the top. So I think for the Hawks, they are kind of at a crossroads right now, and I look forward to seeing what they can get for DeJante, from what I reported today, they want two first-round picks. I don't think they're going to get two first-round draft picks, But if you can get one in a quality young player or one and some flexibility or maybe some seconds,

that seems like pretty fair value for a guy who's lost some of the value that he had with the spurs, even though he's been better offensively this year efficiently. I don't think anybody around the league, at least from the people I talk to, are really buying him as a 40% guy from three. He's closer to 30% for his career. I think this is more of an outlier amount right now. And his defense has been up and down. One of my semi-Bulled predictions going into the year was that Dejante Murray would get traded.

And upon that, Dejante Murray tweeted out, dumb MFs just be talking. And so I, for one, am certainly not rooting for him to be trade so that I can bring that back up. He's deleted his Twitter account. He's deleted his Twitter account, by the way. After the game, he, uh, he was asked about going to the Spurs and he said, I'd welcome that. Popovich is like a father to me. So a lot of has changed there.

He's openly talking about. What? He said that after the game? Is that real? Mm-hmm. Somebody asked him about going to the Spurs and he said, I'd welcome that? Let me see. That's crazy if that's real.

All right. This is from Hoops hype right here, okay? Dejante Murray and the Spurs being one of the teams with interest and training for him via TNT broadcast. Pop is like a father to me. I would welcome that, but right now I'm a hawk. I'm going to stay professional and play the right way. That's a quote. Wow.

Yeah. Imagine them coming back together. Yeah. I just don't see that. You just don't see it. I don't see a lot of quotes like that either. Yeah. I don't think it's the right call for the spurs.

personally. I don't. I'd wait. Keep the picks for now. You mentioned in your article about what Sacramento could do and about how Siakum would be a really good fit for him, but it has been reported. Seacom doesn't see himself as a long-term fit there. And you kind of made the case that like, that would actually be a really good case. And I thought it was interesting for you to bring up the Aaron Gordon thing, because I think that is super applicable here. I don't think Pascal's the outcome can be the second best player on a team that can be there at the end. I think he needs to be your third best guy on a team that can be there at the end. And people can pick on the Raptors saying or whatever, but like, yes, there are certain nights. But like, I'm talking about, I agree with you in the sense that like, you got the two guys.

You've got, you've got, you've got Fox and you've got some bonus. And those are the guys that I'm going to be counting on, night in, night out. And then this thing, this thing, one night, he's going to win me games by being able to dominate his matchup. And there's other times where it's not going to be as applicable, which is exactly what we saw with Gordon. We saw Gordon dominate in the playoffs. And then for a moment looked unplayable against the Lakers.

and then ends up helping them win the NBA finals. But you knew that that thing's running with Murray and Yolkich. And then there's going to be nights where Gordon's a guy, a big time contributed for him, and then there's going to be other nights where he might not. And I do think that Seacom's destiny is to be that third guy on a team that is devastating in that role. I think he'd be a good fit, but obviously, like you were saying, who knows? Maybe he just doesn't, who knows what he thinks, kind of money he's getting in this office. He might just not like the city.

He might just not want to be in Sacramento. It might be that. It might be that he has a friend on another team that he prefer to play with that friend. It could be something along those lines. I don't know exactly what. We also may not feel that they're going to unload, you know, back up the brinks like he expects it to be backed up. for sure. And that's part of the challenge that the Raptors are facing right now, too, because you get a lot of teams that don't want Zach Levine, that don't want to pay past Gelsiakum, the money he could demand this offseason.

So there's not a lot of teams out there that makes sense for Seacum when you check all the boxes with team fit, team situation, the finances to acquire him, the willingness to pay him. There's not many out there. So I think Sacramento, that's the tough spot. Like in terms of do you want to give up what it takes to get Siakum when he hasn't committed to stay with you after the season? And do you actually want to pay him? Or would you rather go in a different direction? Which is why I outlined a plan B within that article. I said, well, if it's not going to be Seacom, why not look at Jeremy Grant from the Blazers or Boyan Bogdanovich from the Pistons or both of them? because they do have the pieces to go out and get both.

They could, in theory, trade Harrison Barnes with Davion Mitchell and Picks to go get Jeremy Grant. They could trade Kevin Heter with picks to go get Boyang Bogdanovich. And that would effectively give them those types of Gordon-esque third pieces that you're talking about, where Grant is a good, highly qualified number three for your team. Bogdanovich is a better Kevin Hutter. he's a more versatile score, a bigger defender. Jeremy Grant, everything you said about Pascal Seyakum with the ability to elevate his play

and be a guy who plays a role on certain nights is applicable to Grant as well. And Grant is a better defender. Like, he's not as big as Seyakum, but Seacom looks like at least this season has completely folded. He's just not putting in the same effort we've seen from him in the past. Grant, Grant isn't obviously either for Portland. To be fair, they're not a great team.

But Grant, I think, is the higher upside defender, the more versatile defender who would fit next to Sabonis in that front court. So I think either or both of those guys would be welcome addition for the Kings. Much like the Knicks acquired Ananobe, you know this. When we get to the playoffs, bro, you got to have wing defenders. Like this is what, and I know you kind of nitpicked on Jade McDaniels, but we know this. We know they've got wing defenders. They've got guys that they can put on guys on the wings. They also have wing offensive players.

A lot of Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City switchable guys that can defend wings. Denver, you're going to be having to deal with these, right? You know you're facing these pick and rolls and you know they're going to try to attack any situation that you're weak at. So you want to have these wing defenders. The clippers, they just got. mean a full bag of them that they can throw at you. And you got to have guys that can defend those guys.

And so I actually think that you're probably better off. I like your much like I endorse the grant acquisition or that's who somebody Darrell should be looking at in Philadelphia, the Kings as well. They need better wings. They need better wings. I mean, they got to the point where they had to bench hard. and they're putting in, you know, they were starting,

oh, what's the guy's name? The guy that, I saw him started in the first game. Duarte, yeah, yeah, the guy that used to be on the Pacers. I mean,

it's not good enough. No. And Monk's small when he comes in, but I mean, they need some. They're all too small. All of them. Herter's too lean.

Duarte is too short. Harrison Barnes doesn't rebound, doesn't have the size, tough to string. Murray's okay, but he's not a mega ass. No, I mean, Murray, Murray's been good defensively,

and he's better than he was last year defensively. He's a better overall player than he was last year. But Keegan Murray should not be your number one perimeter defensive guy. He should be your second guy or your third guy. And Mitchell's tiny. Yeah, the Mitchell doesn't even play. Yeah. So I don't know.

I just think with them, Kegan's good. It's just he should not be your stopper. He should be your number two option to be a stopper. And that's where I think Jeremy Grant or Pascal Seacum, particularly Grant as that stopper, would be, I mean, the truth is, is the Grant's Bogdanovich idea within the article we framed it as like Plan B, the truth is that might be a better plan than just getting Seacom. Having those two salaries in Grant and Bogdanovich rather than the one in Seacom that needs to be paid could be more beneficial in the years to come as. well because it maintains your trade flexibility to have those two salaries for further potential upgrades or changes in the future. I don't know. I think Grant should be the guy alongside Bogdanovich for a top option for the Kings. And we'll see. We'll see what they end up doing

because we know they're out there. We know they had conversations for OG, even though they ended up not making a serious offer. We know they've had conversations for Pascal C. Yakum. It's just a matter of who they pull the trigger on, I look forward to seeing what the Kings do, and I hope they make a move because I want to see them increase their chances to make a run. Bogdanovich is on that Pistons team

that just made a deal, and I laughed out loud when I was reading your observations, and I really wish you would have written 9,000 words on the Pistons Wizards deal. Now, that would have been a triumph. If you had...

I'll leave that. somehow pulled off. My guy Marvin Bagley's never catching a break. He's just never catching a break. Can the guy get on one team that is worth a shit ever? And I know here comes the joke. Like, yeah, teams aren't worth a shit because I got Marvin Bagley. But like, seriously, is this just going to be his plight?

He's just going to be able to, like, am I going to have to wait until Marvin Bagley is 35 years old until he's, like, coming off the bench for somebody and getting six points? It's like he's, you know, Leon Poe or something. Leon Poe's awesome. I love you. I'm talking about a guy. Where did you pull Leon Poe on him?

Leo Poe talking about a guy like later down the road comes out, it comes out and he gets you six points. Leo Poe had a short career. He ended up getting injuries. It ended in Memphis. That's why. He was here. He was a young guy. He won a title.

in Boston. He had big games in the finals. I love, you know, I love Leon Poe. After the Celtics won the championship in 08, my friends and I were at the parade, right? And as we were leaving, I remember we were on the sidewalk on the left side of the street, and I looked to my right, and I saw someone sitting in a car and I was like,

is that Leon Poe? And my friends and I kept walking, and I kept turning around looking. I was like, that's Leon Poe. And I like sprinted across the street, walked up to the car, was sitting on the side of the road for some reason. I was like, Leon, Leon! I don't know what I said.

I probably thanked him and said, I love you, Leon, you know, and all that. And I was the only one who ran up there, if I remember correctly. I don't think any of my friends did. And I thanked Leon Poe and everything like that. That guy, he was super nice. He was very kind to me,

and now he works in the Celtics front office. He's equally kind to this day. But Leon Poe was always one of my favorites because he was on that horrible Celtics team in 060s. seven, but he's a bright spot as a rookie. And then him having big moments on their championship run was really, really cool to see. So shout out to Leon.

So those guys that you went to that parade with, right? Those friends that you mentioned, you went to that. There's still my best friends to this day, all of them. They're my best friends to the same. So what do I think about you wearing this Lakers shit and rooting for the Lakers and being, you know? I don't. What are you talking about? Oh, shut out.

You went all in on the Lakers last year. Yes, you did. Against the grisies, you were like, oh, the Lakers, the Lakers, oh, the Bride. They probably, oh, they got to, I hope they text you on the side and say, you sack, you sack a crap. If we could have seen you, don't show your face back around here. Don't you ever come back to Massachusetts. Dude, talking all that Lakers baloney. You got to be kidding me.

Got a friends of these guys. Letting that crap happen. At the eldest Celtics parade, trying to get a Leon Paul autograph. Next thing you know, they tune in and you're like, The Lakers for now. The Lakers. I joined you the Lakers. I love it.

I love it. It's an amazing transformation. That's for sure. I mean, I used to be the guy posting on Facebook, like in all capital letters like F. LeBron, you know. So like Austin Reeves? I have I have like an old, yeah, like Austin Reeves.

I have an old Facebook post somewhere where like I think it was Bill Russell handing the finals MVP trophy to LeBron and I was like, sick to my stomach. Watching Bill Russell. It's crazy. I used to be, I mean, it is wild like how fandom came. can evolve because I was like, I think most of my friends would say there's probably like the biggest Celtics fan among us.

I was like hardcore every game, every night. But I guess fandom change is working on sports media and being away from the team and obviously with my dad and everything, not watching games with him, but that's the biggest part of all of it. But yeah,

that's weird how fandom can change. For me, it's more like, I mean, you say, I think my friends, like we've talked about it a little bit. I think for me, is more that my fandom and my passion for the game, like I love basketball,

I love at the NBA just as much, if not more than I ever have. It's just more like the fandom has spread from being just with the Celtics to with every team. So like, like when I, which is why I think it's funny for me in my spot. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

No, because it's funny for me in my spot where I see some, some fans who say, like, I've seen Lakers fans, say, oh, you're a Celtics homer. I've seen Celtics fans say you're a Lakers homer. It's like, well, the Lakers, the Celtics fans clearly don't know. I used to write for a Celtics blogger and I know my background. And some of the Lakers fans only know my background who don't understand the way I've kind

of, you know, said certain things about the Lakers over the years and some of my thoughts on them that have been, I think, fair and balanced. So it's funny how things can evolve that way. As for my friends. I have never been accused of being a Lakers Homer. I will tell you. You have never. You're a bigger Grizzlies homer that Bill Simmons is a Celtics homer.

That's ridiculous. Yes, you are. No. There is nobody. Bill. That is a big. No. No, because I.

No, that's not fair. Jalen Brown criticizing him earlier this year. Okay. Look. I was honest. No. Bill,

this is where we're different. I am more real. about my team that Bill is about his. He was picking the Kyrie Celtics to be amazing. He picked the Patriots to be in the playoffs this year.

Like I don't talk myself into... You picked the Grizzlies to make the playoffs when they were 10 games back from the playing. They would have. Oh, yeah. Yeah, you can say that now. You can say that now because Jaws out. They would have.

That's going to be your out. They would have. No, they wouldn't have. Look, they just... They just beat the Warriors with their Memphis hustle. Beating the Warriors is nothing. You know what I mean? But here's what I know.

You didn't hear me coming on here telling you the Cowboys are going to be in the Super Bowl. I know better. I know better. I know better. Oh, man. Hey, tell me this. Do you want the Cowboys to make a run at Belichick? Yes.

You do. Okay. Do you think Jerry? Jones would give him power to make decisions and give him final say on those decisions. I mean, if he was ever going to do it, it's because he's 81 and he just can't take it anymore. Yeah. I mean, that's the interesting thing with the Falcons. Belichick had the interview.

I mean, really, it's Belichick interviewing the Falcons. He met with Arthur Blank, their owner today. The Falcons GM, I read this this morning, their GM wasn't even at their end of season presser. Clearly, that guy's a goner. So clearly Arthur Blank is going to be offering Belichick saying everything. That's a weaker division in the NFC. Well, and they've been friends for a long time, evidently, right?

So, I mean, I think that seems like potentially the spot there. But then again, Belichick also had that quote years ago about, you know, Jerry Jones connecting someday in the future. Those guys have had a relationship going back to the 90s. So who knows? I don't get my hopes up. Look, and you know how we were just talking about how like, hey, hey, if anybody would think highly of Trey Young.

It'd be San Antonio because he's had, you know, 40 and 13 and a half assist a game so far in two games against San Antonio. Well, like, anybody would have a high opinion of Bill Belichick. It might be the guy that he beat 28 to 3 and still couldn't win. I got too much pride. I couldn't even do this shit. I couldn't do that. I really couldn't. If it was 28 to 3 and I lost a Super Bowl because of this dude, I can't hire him.

And then I got to see his ass every day. I know, I know. You know what I mean? And then you got to make the corny, like billionaire joke at the press conference. Like, I'm glad he's on my side this time. Yeah, I know. That'd be tough. At the same time, you have to make the best decision for your franchise.

And the Falcons, if they get a quarterback, they get a lot of weapons on offense. Bejohn Robinson criminally underutilized this year, according to my fantasy team. And every falcons fan out there. Pitts maybe Belichick can save him. They have Johnny Smith, former Patriots tight end there. So I don't know. Falcons are an interesting group, a team for him to go to,

especially considering the weak division. So if he wants to get that win record. Yeah. Super manageable division. At the same time, if you want to bring a franchise to win a Super Bowl, I'd rather do it with the Cowboys. That'd be the team I'd want to go to.

Also, you've got a lot more of the components. Yes. But you might not have the quarterback, bro. I'm so despot. I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to talk about it. So you think you might be out on deck after he had an MVP regular season. He's just not a playoff guy.

I love him. But what was that? I know. What was that? Horrible. Disgusting. I mean, that was Jason Tatum versus the Warriors. Ooh.

Ooh. Too soon? It feels like that was for Bill. just it's like my fandom comment rubbed you the wrong way there just all right it was it was actually it was it was oh but check in to see if bill's listening an hour five minutes in right now give me a break you're not listening to this crap who would who would all right this uh this NFL wild card weekend was not too good a lot of boring games unfortunately only one good one Lions Rams.

Lions Rams is great. That's a great cam. That was a lot of fun. I was happy for, as someone who follows the NBA, you know, especially as how, how devastated that city had to be

after the Bagley trade to then win your first playoff games since 1991, kind of made it go away, right? Yeah. I know that they're probably just up in arms like oh my god traded Marvin Bagley and then they're like oh thank God Jared

golf made us forget about the Bagley trade pretty cool doing it against Stafford too kind of crazy they're good they're good they've been good all season been good a lot of weapons all right Kevin it's always a pleasure thank you to our executive producer Jesse Lopez as always and I'll talk to you on Thursday. Had a good week. Must be 21 plus in present in select states. Fandul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with the Kansas Star Casino, LLC. Gambling problem, call one and her to gambler, or visit Fandul.com slash RG.

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