The Mismatch - Ayton Returning to the Desert, Do What You Can to Get Mitchell, and Summer League Prospect Watching

Episode Date: July 15, 2022

Verno and KOC are back home as they discuss the Suns matching the Pacers' offer sheet for Deandre Ayton (01:30). While it’s been extremely quiet with Kevin Durant, Verno points out why it truly is only a matter of time before he is traded (13:21). The guys also discuss what it's going to take for the Knicks to acquire Donovan Mitchell (22:39). Despite the obvious flaws in a Mitchell-Jalen Brunson backcourt, KOC suggest you do what you can to acquire the star and figure it out from there. They last discuss which prospects have stood out to them in summer league (32:56). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's not quite the DeLorean, but we're going back in time with a new podcast feed full of all my favorite interviews in the history of the Bill Simmons podcast. We're coming up on seven years now. I've had an unbelievable collection of athletes, celebrities, showrunners, directors, Matt Damon, Denzel Washington, Adam Sandler, Kevin Garnett, Shirley's Theron, Tom Hanks, Bill Burr, Kevin Durant, Peyton Manning, The Undertaker, Eddie Vetter, Kyrie Irving? Yeah, he actually came on. Dave Grohl, Quavo, Barack Obama. I mean, what else can I tell you? I've had Al Pacino with Barry Levinson. I've had people like Steph Curry, Jason Bateman, John C. Riley, Joe to Hill. I could

keep going and going. Listen, whether it's your first time or you're planning to revisit all your favorites, follow the Bill Simmons podcast, the interviews on Spotify right now. Welcome to The Mismatch. I'm Chris burning and joining me as he does every Friday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, a.k, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Conflict, Kevin O'Climber, Kevin O'Clymer, Kevin O'Candexie. Kevin O'Connor! What's going on, man? We get some breaking news today, huh? We do have some breaking news. We are recording this on Thursday night, and it has just been announced DeAndre Aiton is going to remain a Phoenix Sun after an office. offer sheet was proposed to him by the Indiana Pacers for four years and $133 million.

He signed said offer sheet. And within about two seconds, the Phoenix Sun says, okay, now you got your contract. That was fast. Yeah. And so now DeAndre Aiton has to act excited about being back in Phoenix after this has been kind of a mess. It did get a little, it got tense. Looking at the quotes throughout last year, he clearly had a level of disappointment

in that they could not come to an agreement last off season coming off of an NBA finals. He looks around, he sees the guys in his draft class, he sees Luca Donchich, and he sees Trey Young, and he sees, you know, Jaron Jackson and some other guys signing extensions, some of them huge extensions. They don't want to give them five years.

They, I suppose, cannot come to an agreement on four years. And so they played the card of go get your offer. And then we'll see from there. And I do think that, you know, it sends a signal. The Phoenix Sun's window is right now. You know, there was some talk, especially after their flame out, that maybe that window had passed. I don't buy that.

They won eight more games, I think, than everybody in the NBA. I know it ended disastrously for Aiton and for the Sons last year. But this is a team that went to the finals two years ago, down to the end, and it took all time, Janus, to knock them out. Yes, this past year ended very, very poorly, but as they were currently constructed, that's a great basketball team. And so losing DeAndre Aiton for nothing,

especially if you couldn't find a sign-in-trade, there was just no way you could let that happen and just not have anything to show for it. So they are now signing him to that deal that Indiana offered him. Probably going to be some resent from the Aiton side on this, But what do you make of it? The way it all played out and kind of the decision that Phoenix made.

He can't be trading until January 15th, right? So he's the son. He's a son next year, at least for this foreseeable future. I mean, they took it slow. Sarver had his beating preseason with him. Didn't pay him then. Didn't pay him straight out of a Gates of a free agency because they, you know, they're flirting with Kevin Durant.

And finally, Aiton gets that offer sheet from Indiana. And I think for the Phoenix Suns here, the only other alternative might have been to trade for, say, Miles Turner, like whether it was a sign of trade with Aiton or whether it was some other salaries involving Landryorisham and Dario Sarich and draft picks to compensate for Turner and his value. So, I mean, maybe that were the alternatives for Phoenix, and ultimately they decided, hey, better off bringing back our 23-year-old center

who helped lead us to an NBA finals and then followed up with a 60-plus win season. I mean, it's not a bad choice by any means, even if they feel like internally, internally, Aitn might be overpaid a bit for his role on the team and given how much he needs to be pushed to constantly hustle and bring it on the floor from Devin Booker and Chris Paul.

So for the Suns here, I'm happy that they're able to run it back, but it also doesn't rule out them doing something big with Aiton January 15th and beyond. And maybe in February, we're talking about that exact thing. The team that did want to sign him to that contract, we know now

Indiana, and especially you look at their timeline and you look at the guys that they have on their roster. He fits. 22 through 24. Yeah, when you saw people putting up the graphics of what it would look like in the ages of that team, it made sense. He certainly would fit their timeline. But we know they have grand interest in him. You know that they would like to attain him.

So it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility that this is revisited. and we're having an episode in February talking about, hey, is it going to be Miles Turner? What could they end up with in Phoenix? If they're going to augment what they're doing, who knows what's going on with Phoenix, you never know the way injuries are going to play out. You don't know what kind of Aiton you're going to get because now you have put a fortune in his pocket

and you didn't get what you wanted out of him totally, certainly not at the end of last year. You had that dust up with Moni. That's pretty embarrassing at the end of the year. And I can imagine he probably doesn't have the greatest feelings about Phoenix right now. It's an interesting case because I don't want to come off like I'm defending Aiton. On the other hand, it's a very difficult way to do business, I think. And I know some laud this, but in Phoenix, you know, when you tell somebody,

hey, go see what somebody else will pay you. and if they'll pay you that, then we'll pay you that. I think it's a tough way to go. And there is some reference point for this, and I'm talking about this because it's this particular owner. And our own, uh, Rajabelle, who does an outstanding job with our buddy Logan Murdoch on the real ones. He told a story earlier in the year about Robert Sarver.

When all that Sarver stuff came out, he was telling different stories about him. And one of the ones he's talking, told was that he went to a dinner with Robert Sarver. And so I've got to admit, I'm viewing this situation through the prism of the Rajah story about Sarver. So Rajabelle was on some great Phoenix teams. He was a grinder, a heart and soul guy, a defender, had laid it out in the line, fan favorite, all, all this stuff, right?

So he said, look, I want to be in Phoenix. I want to be in Phoenix. I want to be a part of this. My wife and I are going to have kids. I want to buy a house. I want to be a part of this. And I want to be a part of this going forward. And there's the market out there that is for me right now.

And I do think that I deserve to get a raise. And I'd like to get a raise. And then I'd like to sign an extension and dedicate to you guys. And he said, Robert Sarver looked across him at the table. And he said, I agree with you. I agree with you. You should be getting paid more. But I'm not going to do it.

And Roger Bell was like, what? He goes, I'm not going to do it. You know why I'm not going to do it? Because I don't have to. Like, that's the guy that you're dealing with. And so I sit there and think, DeAndre Aiton has to be like, F this guy.

F this franchise. He might be gone soon anyway, though. I mean, he's getting his money. Yeah, right. Right. It's true. The Fort of Thorth, Adam Silver, did say a day ago that they're in the last stage of the investigation for... Yeah, well, look, for the NBA's sake, here's hoping the guy is gone. There's no question. Here's hoping the guy's gone.

But I do know... For Sun's fans' sake. I just think it's... Suns fans are the ones who want them out. I also think for Paul, for Booker, especially Moni, for them to be able to succeed at the level that they've been able to succeed. despite the organization's leader and the stuff that has come out of him and the distractions and then just knowing the way he conducts business and hearing those stories is truly phenomenal, really. It's not easy. It's hard to succeed if you've got an owner that can actively hurt your mission.

and in this Aiton case, I guess we'll never know who feels what, but I just always have that in the back of my head of, the reason I'm not going to pay you is because I don't have to pay you. And I think about that when I think about, hey, you know, oh, Indiana signed an offer sheet, all right, fine. Now I'll pay him the $133 million. I just don't think that's the way you should conduct business if you want to engender loyalty and your players to want to play for your franchise, right?

It's tough. I mean, look, it's as tough as it can be when you're making $133 million. I'm not going to cry that much for it. You know, it just sucks. It sucks not to feel like you are valued. That's what I'd say. Go get your offer somewhere else. So they did.

He did. Now time to, you know, put on your big boy pants and go play with your teammates and try to win a championship. You know? Yeah. Might be a different owner. Might be a different boss anyway, you know, this coming year for DeAndre. And for him, I mean, more than anything, so like this is you're getting paid. Now is an opportunity to prove yourself and who you are and who you can become. You're 23 years old. You're going back to a team with Chris Paul and Devin Booker and Mikkel Bridges and Cam Johnson. So much talent on that team still. And you know, you know that even your own franchise,

that drafted you with the first pick ahead of Marvin Bagley and Luca Dontersh. You know how much they value you despite these negotiations back and forth. So now is your chance for, as DeAndre Aitin, to continue doing the things that they ask of you at the highest level possible

while also, you know, progressively expanding your game and showing that you're going to be even worth more the next time around these negotiations come. So for Aiton, as a guy that said, before he was drafted, what's your goal to get to my second contract? you're there, you got it. Now it's time to get to your third contract

and then you're making you have $200 plus million $4 years from now. Kevin, does this end the Durant stuff? For Phoenix, for now, yeah, I think so. I'd be a little surprised. That's done. I mean, I would never say done. I just don't know what you put together.

It really complicates things because then you're talking about, is it Booker? Well, probably not. Is it McKell Bridges plus, you know, Jay Crowder and Cam Johnson and whatever other salaries are required, well, then where are the picks coming from? Where are the draft picks coming from? So I just don't think it's that realistic.

Yeah. And one thing on the Durant front, because he issued that trade request, they said that Sean Marks and his representatives were going to canvas the league and they were going to try to find up, find a deal. And then everything has gone silent, including according to some reports, Kevin Durant, he's gone silent

and not really talk to anybody. Since that time, we know that Kyrie Irving, the expectation is that he'll probably be back in Brooklyn. You know, Ben Simmons, they've got those pictures of him doing the workouts. They signed, you know, some other guys in free agency. see, you know, to kind of augment that team. Joe Harris should be able to come back.

But here's what I'm thinking. I went and looked at the NBA odds today, Kev. And I do think that that is the most instructive towards understanding what is going to happen here. If you look at the NBA odds right now, I foresee no circumstance that Durant is on the Brooklyn Nets next season. Because I just don't think that they would post them. They are right now, have the same odds as like Dallas.

They have the same odds as like Denver. On Fandul there, plus 2,000s. Yeah, that's slightly ahead of Denver. Memphis, Dallas, and then Minnesota, Toronto, kind of have a drop off. Yeah, so, yeah, so depending where you look, you're talking 20 to 1, 25 to 1. 10th highest odds aren't, aren't like, extreme. 10th? No, but they're not going to have that exposure, is what I'm saying.

A sportsbook would not post them at 20, 25, earlier in the week. It was like 28, I think, at one place. They're not going to post that if they believe. Kevin Durant is going to be a net. And usually they know, right? Usually they've got good information on this. So those other teams that are up there, whether it was Phoenix or Miami or some of the other ones

that have been mentioned, the odds would not swing too dramatically because those odds are already way low. But in the net's case, if you're letting someone go in there and bet 20 to 1, 25 to 1, look, we know this. If they run it and they have Kyrie Irving and they have Kevin Durant, they have Ben Simmons, and they have that group, their odds, whether their chances or whether we think they would be playing in the title or representing the Easter conference or not, if those odds are great, we know that people would bet it. We know people would bet it and the exposure would just be way too great to have them posted at 20 to 25 to 1. And that tells me that they think he's not going to be in that. So if they don't think it, then I don't think it. And that something will end up happening with this because that's real money.

Somebody could walk in there with and bet that. And so I think that's a hedge that he's not going to be in Brooklyn. But it's gone quiet. It has gone quiet. and the Phoenix thing is off the table. So I guess we'll just wait and see. But it's going to be a gargantuan return. We know that.

Speaking of... Wait a minute. What do you do if you're... I mean, so you're the Nets, right? I reported this week how they're one of the teams that have interest in Donovan Mitchell. We know Miami. You know, we know New York.

of course, the Knicks have interest in him. With the Nets, their demand, do you think it's possible that they're keeping them on the board 10th highest odds because the demand is an all-star player in return plus a whole bunch of picks where it's not like they'd be a crap team all of sudden? They'd still be a good competitive team, and they're keeping them on the board in that sense? Couldn't that be advantageous for them?

Maybe, but again, you're most worried about people betting them and them being awesome. Yeah, but it's not like they have plus 7,000. odds like the Knicks or plus 5,500 like the Hawks. I mean, plus 2,000 on Fandul, you bet $100, you win $2,000 if they win the time. That's a big guy. Yeah, it is. It is. It is.

But also, like, even if they keep Kevin Durant, Kyrie Irving and Fess Simmons, there's still a lot of uncertainty with that team. Would you put them like odds-wise ahead of, the team's ahead of them? Yes. Boston, Milwaukee, Golden State, Clippers, Suns, Heat, Lakers, Sixers. Maybe not a couple of those. Would you put the nets ahead of any of them? They come back with the roster they have.

They signed T.J. Warren, traded for Royce O'Neill. They bring back McClackson. Are you putting that team ahead of any of those nine? I think they would be on par with Celtics bucks. The favorites. In the Easter Conference, yeah, yeah. I think they'd be on par with that. Even ahead of your Miami Heat?

Yeah. Assuming there's no difference. I'm saying if you had the rosters right now, Here's what I'll tell you, Kevin. You ain't ever getting to bet a team 20 to 25 to 1 that has Kevin Durant on it. Ever. Ever. It's never happening.

You don't get those odds. We'll be interesting to see how that shakes out. He is still one of the best, what, three to five players in the NBA, easily. So, and we know that you typically have one. one of those guys when you win an NBA championship. And this year was another example of it, where the team that had the best player was the one that won the title in Steph Curry.

And so I do think that he's going to be, he's going to be on the move somewhere. It's figuring out where that's our part. And, you know, that Golden State stuff keeps popping up. There's no question, especially after watching them in Summer League, they probably have the, if you were looking for players,

they might have the best return. I mean, you got three guys that really didn't play a role in them winning a title last year. Not much of one in Wiseman, Cominga, and Moody. And I mean, so if you wanted to package some stuff together with some picked and you wanted to, if you wanted to take a run, at Kevin Durant, I think it would be enticing.

I think it would be enticing if you're the net. But that would make the NBA community at large. Absolutely barf. Barf. We can't do that again. We can't do the whole Turan Golden State thing again. I don't think the Warriors, I mean, like you can't say no to Kevin Durant, but at the same time, I love...

But they don't need it. But I love the thing they have going with their young guys. Yep. Weisman, Cominga, Moody, Poole, Devencenzo, those are your five guys coming off the bench, and they're going to be able to mix and match them in your rotation with Steph, Clay, Dremont, Loney,

Wiggins, like the combinations that Kerr is going to be able to put up there can both promote development, put your young players in positions to succeed, and also give them opportunities to shine. It's such a very unique situation for a team that just won a title and has three future Hall of Famers on it to have all these young guys. It's like, I don't know if it makes the most sense to blow that up.

I just, I don't feel great about it. You're not losing anything that was important to you winning the title. Yeah, but like I'm saying blowing up this path. You're blowing up this youth path, this spurs path that you're talking about. At the same time, though, it is Kevin Durant. It is Kevin Durant. And the goal is to win championships. And you can always get more young players.

regarding You can always get more young players, Chris That's the one thing I'll say One more point on this Are you totally sold Like on Kaminga Wiseboody Pool

Are you sold on them It's like yeah We have to keep these guys Oh None of them are untouchable Yeah Right So then it becomes about the amount of drafts

player that's untouchable, I've got to look at you like, I think you could be one of the best few players at your position in the entire league. I'm talking untouchable. That's when, or I could foresee massive stardom. If you told me none of those guys will make multiple all-star teams, that's not a stretch. Most guys don't make multiple all-star teams. Now, on the flip side, if you told me that one or two of them will make multiple all-star teams, that wouldn't shock me neither.

I'm just, when you ask me, am I convinced? I'm not convinced. You think they'll make multiple all-star teams? I think it's a hard call right now. I don't know what they're going to be. Probably not. Probably not? Because most guys don't.

That's the safer bet. Yeah, of course. Even awesome young players. And Poole is clearly proven more than the other three. Poole is, he had a really good season last year, breakout season. Let's get to Donovan Mitchell. Speaking of odds, boy, did those flip. You could have bet Donovan Mitchell going to the Knicks at like 3 to 1 plus 300 something a day ago.

It's like minus 200 this morning. Yeah, maybe Vegas is now as much as we might think. Maybe they don't, or maybe they do. They have engaged in talks. Do you know something I don't? I mean, the Mitchell stuff's been happening for weeks. I mean, it's like they've had discussions. Right.

Knicks have always been the favorite if he gets dealt. Well, I think it's become real. That's what, you know, that you didn't really know. Realer for sure. Yeah, it's getting serious. And they've engaged in talks. They want to get a deal worked out. We know the Knicks have eight future first-round picks.

They've got some young talent on their team. I was just listening to an interview with Shams. Before we were recording, Summer League game was on, and he went on during the game broadcast, and they were talking about that particular deal. And Sam Mitchell, who was calling the game, he's like, you know who I'm going to ask you about Shams? R.J. Barrett.

Shom's immediate response was they'd have to pay RJ Barrett. Like almost like, not dismissing it, just saying like RJ Barrett's about to be up for a contract extension and that's not really what they're trying to be doing here is to attain a guy that would be right in line for having to get a contract extension. And so I think that would turn your attention to,

I mean, some of the, you know, maybe end up with some of the player Grimes, OBE, quickly. Those guys aren't as soon to come up on extension talks, but are some young players that very well may have some value for the Knicks.

And you got the eight picks. So he got roughly five for Gobert. If you throw in Walker Kessler, five first rounders. What the hell is the price for Mitchell from Danny Hange? As much or more than that, and the Knicks are able to pay it.

I mean, so many of their incoming first-round draft picks are protected, so they're diminished in value. But other teams that are interested don't even have those extra draft picks. They have their own. The Knicks have their own and others. So they can get creative in the type of deal that they offer. And like you mentioned, you know, Quinn Grimes, Obie Toppin, Cam Reddish. There's some guys that have some value that they could give in a deal. In addition to Evan Fournier, with just two fully guaranteed seasons left on his contract as a salary filler.

So for the Knicks, to me, I know there are some Knicks fans that think, don't go for Donovan Mitchell. It doesn't make sense with Jalen Brunson. Go for Donovan Mitchell. And then if it doesn't make sense, you trade Jalen Brunson. That's what you do.

You go get the superstar player and Donovan Mitchell. You pay what it takes. You finally have a star who wants you, who wants to be in New York, who wants to build something special there and have more bing bongs after games. Donovan Mitchell gets it.

You go get that guy and you figure it out afterwards. Because you know what? maybe it does work with Mitchell and Brunson. Maybe two six-foot-one guards go on and they're hard to stop. They're so small. They're able to generate shots for each other and they build a perfect team and they go on and win a title. But it probably won't be that easy. The odds are having two six-foot-one guards that were dropping 30 points on each other just a couple months ago.

Odds are that there will be issues. And you know what? At that point, figure it out. And the odds are, sorry, Brunson. You're the guy that we're flipping for Donovan Mitchell's star partner that he wants in a year or two or three. So that's the way I look at it if I'm the Knicks is go get Donovan Mitchell and figure out the rest later. They're both outstanding players for sure. And yeah, give it a run.

The question is how much of it do you give up? And on the flip side, Utah pulls this off. And they get a bunch of picks. Most of the NBA. More than OKC, more than New Orleans. And they get a bunch of picks from, you know, they already got a bunch from Minnesota. They get a bunch from the Knicks. Let me tell you what else, Kev.

They'll get stuff for Malik Beasley. They will get stuff for Mike Conley. They'll get stuff for Pat Bev. They'll get stuff for Jordan Clarkson. They ripped that thing apart. They got guys that, like, those guys I just named, they got value to teams. They've got value.

Yeah, first year, here, a highly valuable second rounder here. I mean, yeah, it all adds up. And we get you. Right? Like we give you, like in the Conley case, we'll take on, you give us picks, we'll take on some of your expirings. We don't care. Now all of a sudden you got Mike Conlin, right? You give us some of your crap and your picks. We'll give you Malik Beasley. Now you got a six man. Same thing with Jordan Clarkson. You know, Pat Bev will be, people are going to want him on their team. He had a profound impact on that Minnesota team last year. He did. He did. You know, is there a limit to it when you get to playoff basketball? Is there a limit to him somewhat?

But having him in your rotation, this guy has been on winning, he's been on winning teams. He was on a winning team with the Clippers. And then, of course, he, you know, hump the scorers table after he knocked out them when he's playing for Minnesota this year. So, PEPF is, he's got value to somebody. So Danny, by the time he's done, they got a lot of good players.

How about Bogdanovich? That's one I didn't even mention. You don't think people would want him? They have good players and they're also not good, which is, it's a good year to be average or bad because of the quality of the draft next year. And also, I just want to note for the jazz, Rudy Gobert's agent, Buna,

is the same agent for Victor Wenbanjama. I'm not saying that he would try to steer him to, Utah. I'm just saying that there's a relationship there and a respect for each other and they had a highly successful raw player go into Utah and become a future Hall of Fame. So I just think that's one relationship worth noting, especially given the fact that, you know, it seemed like Gobert's camp was very happy landing with Minnesota. Like he talked about, they did me good, you know, putting me in a winning situation. So I think that's just one storyline to keep in mind. And over the coming year when you're thinking about the jazz and they're going to have a lottery pick and they're

going to have maybe 18 first round draft picks over the next seven years. That's what it might end up. They have 12 right now. If they get five or six or seven from the Knicks, who knows how many. I mean, like, if they, you know, we'll see what they can do with all those picks. Danny Aege has been in a situation like this after the KG Pierce trade, but never like this. This is way more picks than he's ever been able to have anything. And I also think just from talking to different people and and then kind of scouring the internet, you change your attention to, okay,

who are the guys we're going to be talking about next year? Because we're seeing all this stuff that has taken place in Summer League this year, it's all been Wemba, Wemba on and on, and are these teams going to tank for him? And look, we've spoken about him. Anybody that has not taken the time to go watch it on YouTube,

it doesn't even look real. That's how awesome the guy is. I mean, it doesn't even look like it should be possible the way he blocked shots and moves up and down the court. It looks like a user-generated player. And if it wasn't a real human being, I would think it was like made up. Clearly, he's the prize, okay?

There's other guys, man. I told you I went and watched those Thompson twins who my buddy Sam Bassini wrote about today. The Thompson twins, Amen and Azure Thompson. And I was at a workout that they did. Like seven wings. Oh my God. And they glide and they are fast switch to the bone and they are great kids.

In fact, I was texting back before. They're basketball junkies, those kids. They love basketball. They watch YouTube, you know, figure out how to do moves. They install them to their games. I mean, and, you know, Apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I met the dad. Dad was, I mean, he was awesome.

and the kids, they're like, yes, sir, no, sir. I mean, made me feel a little bit old, but they were... You are old. I know, but you watch their talent and you see the kind of kid that you'd be getting. They're the kind of kids that are going to go into interviews and GMs are going to be like, oh, my God. Oh, yeah. I have to have him part of my organization.

I have to. Unless you have the number one pick. That's right. That's right. And then the other one, Scooter Henderson, come on. on, bro. You watch him? I mean, there's So athletic. It's going to be a thing.

Trust me. It's going to be a thing. It's crazy how the top four potentially could be Wenban Yama, overseas prospect, Scoot Henderson, G League, and then the Thompson twins from overtime elite. It could be no college prospects in the top four potentially. The first college prospect could be Nick Smith from Arkansas. and it's not even like a Duke or a Kentucky or Kansas,

it's Arkansas. Yeah, right. I think, God, there's like three or four McDonald's All-Americans going to Arkansas next year. Yeah, yeah, Anthony Black, too. They have a number of potential top players. Yeah. So I don't think it's just like a one-man prize. That was my point.

It's not. It's a good draft. I mean, it's like it projects a year out. I mean, we'll see how these kids develop. but everybody I talk to around the league right now is like, yeah, this is the type of year that, you know, tank it out, baby. Tank it out.

Go get Wemby. As we pivot and think about great prospects, what I'm left with as we touch on Summer League before we get out of here, I think if you go down this draft, this one has been extremely interesting in the sense that you walk out of Summer League and I think all of these fan bases are excited about what they saw.

Orlando with Pollo, Oklahoma City with Chet, Jabari, who in Houston, Kegan Murray for sure in Sacramento, Jaden Ivy, that we only got to see him for a glimpse in Detroit, but it was very good in the glimpse that we saw him. you even get down to six, Matherin. I watched him last night for the Pacers. I mean, they got to be thrilled about what they're watching with him.

That's an explosive player, pull-up jumper looked good. And then it got weird because we didn't get to see Shaden Sharp. We didn't get to see Dyson Daniels. We didn't get to see Jeremy Sohan from Baylor because he had like the COVID thing, missed some practices at the beginning. They held him out. So there are certainly some players that we didn't get to see at Summer League, and we'll see what ends up becoming of them.

But you go down the top six. If I'm a fan of any of those top six teams, I feel really good, at least after watching these guys play basketball on this, yes, lesser level. But I think all those players showed well, some better than others. And Paolo was just freaky, man. I mean, he played two games. He scored 40 points, had 12 rebounds, 10 assists, went to the free throw line 20 times.

It's like, come on. And we saw a lot of Chet, Jabari. Yeah, Murray. Murray was probably the second best. He was probably, might have been the first best of any of them. But I do think, you know, came out of that draft, and everybody's got to be pretty excited. History tells us that somebody got the booby prize.

but that is not evident yet. Is that fair? Somebody did. We just don't know who yet. How about in the rest of the first round? I mean, I think Jalen Williams at 12 for OKC. He looks great. Tari Easton at 17 for Houston.

I mean, look, Jabari Smith, Jr., you can say the scoring hasn't been there the way you hope. The ball handling is not there the way you hope. But, man, defensively, Jabari Smith Jr. and Tari Easton together, those guys for Summer League level look unbelievable. Tabar is going to figure it out. Yeah, he will. The shots are going to fall for him.

For Memphis, how did you like David Roddy? They didn't shoot the ball well, but what do you think, your early impressions of Roddy? Yeah, I love Roddy because Roddy, in the second to last game, the one where they put up 120 points against Brooklyn, he started to figure it out. And I was over the moon watching that because he, I think a lot of these guys, it's very, very difficult when they come in. if they were the guy on their college team.

Because you've been playing basketball this one way. This is a very, very difficult transition for so many guys when they first go to their college team. And there's only a finite amount of stars, Kevin, and it's the ones that realize I'm not a star. How do I fit in? How do I fit into an NBA concept? And that's what coaches and everybody's trying to figure out

when you're watching. But that in and of itself is a very difficult transition when you've been the man. It's typically put the ball in my hands. And I did think as that went on Roddy, who was drafted a lot higher than people thought, you know, he started to get aggressive and started to just play. And I think in many of these cases, I would watch a lot of these young guys. So I would say in some cases, don't panic if your guy didn't play all that well, especially if his destiny is not to be one of the best players in the NBA or even the best players on his team. You know, most guys, they got to figure out where they fit in in the NBA. And I think that was even true with him and maybe some others in Summer League where it's like,

all right, where do I fit in? And then you're trying to people please so it takes away your level of aggression that made you good enough to get. get to this point. And then they figure it out. Then they figure it out. I'll tell you the other one. Look, speaking to them, I watched them today, as you know, and they played the Celtics. J.D. Davidson put on one of the most, like, dominating performances that you could see in the Summer League. Now, Summer League's made for guards, fast guards, explosive guys. But, bro, his passes, everything. Now, I really resent him for getting rid of the massive. blonde fro, which whipped in the wind at Alabama,

and in high school. He's got his hair down now. And I love that huge, blonde. I mean, it was enormous. It looked like something out of like NBA Street. And he got rid of it. So I resent that. But damn it, man, he was awesome.

He was awesome. He destroyed Memphis. Changed his hair. I'm done with him. Yeah. He destroyed me. I mean, I don't know what he ended up with. 30 and 10 or something.

Yeah, 28 points, 10 assists, I think 5, 6 rebounds. Bro, we had 19 in the first half. Like, who knows what becomes of it? But I will tell you this. And he was doing it in a different ways, too. He hits spot off trees, you know, playing out of the pick and roll.

Hey, that's good. And he hadn't really even done that much. That's another, by the way, little tip, that's another one of the guys that Mike Miller has in his fold, along with Palo Bancaro. Oh. He's got him.

because and Miller knows talent. We've talked about this many times, and he's clearly making waves as an agent, just becoming an agent and having the number one pick. He recruited all these kids when he was on Penny Hardaway's staff at Memphis. Now, you got to remember, he was big game hunting

when they had the number one recruiting class in the country with that Wiseman year. And it was in part because of him. And so he's out there, and he was recruiting Paulo Bancair, and he was recruiting J.D. Davison. He's recruiting all these best players in the country. And so now we had that prior relationship with him

because he was recruiting them when they were high school athletes. But, you know, he would identify who he wanted. And that's when he was recruiting for a college. He's doing the same, obviously, with his agency. And I don't know what's going to become of Davidson, but I couldn't help but think that today. I'll be like, damn Mike Miller. What if he freaking, what if this kid turns out?

Because, boy, he was good. He was, he was so much better than everyone on the court. It was embarrassing today. I didn't see the full game live. I only watched the highlights of Davison before we did our podcast. But I was very impressed by the plane making because that was the one thing. Like, decision making in college was not great. But, like, you know he can create space.

You know he can get to the basket. You know, he's explosive around the rim. but playmaking wise he looks sharp with some of the passes and the reeds that he was making out I was impressed by him and like you know what did he go?

53 53? I mean 53 like yeah what a good gamble at that point of the draft like there's a couple he was a great high school player he was he was a great college player too for that

and let me let me circle back to Jalen Williams so I watched him in Utah and I watched him in Vegas. Yo, I can see Jalen Williams being one of those guys that's in that, and how many times are we talking about this, that like 10 to 15 range where you look back, you're like, wow, I can't believe that guy went 10 to 15. There's so many awesome players that have been taken in that range, like from 10 to 15,

10 to 16. He is just good. And I spoke to the aforementioned David Roddy. And Roddy, when I asked him, because he played a Colorado State, I said who, and they played in all kinds of tournaments, et cetera, et cetera. I asked him who the best player he played against in college was. And he said, I think he said it was Jaila Williams, the kid at Santa Clara. And that's one of those where it's like game recognized game. Roddy was an amazing college player.

but he told me the best player he played against was Jalen Williams. And then I saw the kid up close and I was like, boy, I see it. He is. He's got a chance to be really, really good. And I think Oklahoma City on the surface, they look like they got some serious young talent that they've drafted. No doubt about that. They have two Jalen Williams.

I know. So much talent, they have two of them. I know. It's so funny. You mentioned Tari East. I'm going to give you a little credit here, Kevin. O draft. O draft.

You won't even remember this because you smoked too much cannabis. But a couple of weeks ago, I asked you about, you always say you have no memory. I haven't had a memory since I was like 12 years old. I'm going to jog it for you. That's nothing. I asked about a guy who's like low that could be like a real sleeper that people aren't really talking about.

And you know the name you gave me? Peyton Watson. Oh, yeah, he's good. He averaged like three points in 12 minutes or something at UCLA. Yeah, yeah, he barely played at all. Yeah, Sunday, he had 19.7 rebounds, two steals, a block. He's 6'8 with a 7 foot wingspan. He can guard everybody.

And I was like, Jesus. Like, who is? How did this guy? What, what happened? Three points a game. What happened? What are you doing, Mick Cronin? What is Mick Cronin trying at UCLA?

This guy. Got to play your vets, Chris. Really, truly might be the diamond, A diamond in the rub. And think about, think about also he's going to be playing with Nicole Yokic. He's got the frame, brother. Yeah, the shots that are going to be created for Watson by Yokic.

Like, he's, it's never going to be easier for him than they will be playing with him. I mean, that's embarrassing. 3.3 points per game in 12 minutes. What? What was going on? The guy had 19 and 7.

It's interesting. With a guy like him, you know, a top high school recruit goes to college, doesn't play out the way he would have hoped for. Jaden Hardy goes to the G League doesn't play out the way you would hope for.

And, you know, granted Hardy's had some ups and downs and summer league so far. Today, like we're recording as the game's happening, but I've seen a couple highlights pop up on social. Jaden Hardy, another guy, starting to look more like the high school version of himself, creating buckets from mid-range, half-spins, dropping defenders.

The dude's nasty. It's just about, you know, doing it with consistency. So for Peyton Watson, Jaden Hardy, J.D. Davison, you know, a handful of other guys in the second round, too. It's just Summer League. We know it, Chris. Yeah. But some of these guys, like they have at least the makings of potential steals.

which is cool to see. Well, and it reminded me a little bit. It's how old I am. I remember when the 76ers took Drew Holiday, and it was like, what? You got into dick at UCLA. He averaged like eight points. What are they doing?

And sure enough, Drew Hollidays had like this unbelievable NBA career. It is now an NBA champion, and most people will always laud him as one of the most underrated players that has come through over the course of the past decade. Players always talk about how awesome he is, but maybe hasn't gotten as much media love. And here we have all these years later,

another UCLA kid who average frigging three points a game. And I'm sitting there watching him. And I'm like, six, eight, seven foot wingspan, can bang shots, can rebound. UCLA wasn't even good this year. That UCLA team, I just looked it up, the 0809 UCLA Bruins. They went 26 and 9, lost in the second round by 20 points to Villanova.

On that team, the NBA players, Darren Collison, Drew Gooden, Malcolm Lee, Drew Holiday. And as you said, Drew Holiday averaged 8.5 points per game, which was fourth on the team behind Dragovic, Aboya, Ship, and Collison. Crazy. Yeah. college production is not everything. Not everything. So I was going to give you credit on that. You know the other one?

Good efficiency by him, though, for what it's worth. I'll give you another one that looked like they could knock down shots. And maybe just a name to keep an eye on that might have been a steal. And that's Caleb Houston. Okay, he looks good. Kid from Michigan, he could knock down shots. He was five of nine from three. Again, size to get it off.

We're seeing some of the maybe Cam Johnson effect. Is that fair? Yeah, I'm into that. Like, in the sense of, here's these bigger guys that can actually, you know, they're long enough that they're not going to get mangled if they got to guard somebody big because so many guys are all face up now anyway, but that they can really give you an advantage by space on the floor and they can get their shout-off. Because the reason I brought that kid up is because this Caleb Euse,

he's not some kind of mega athlete, but neither is Cam Johnson for that matter. Right? But you got a role in the NBA. And he looks, you look good to me. And also knowing your role and accepting your role and embracing it and becoming the best possible version of yourself for your team with what the team needs and what you can give it. And like, you know, he definitely does that already. He did it in college. Like that's who he was in college. He wasn't a 25 point per game guy.

He was a spot-up three, he's attack closeouts, make the right play, move the ball, play hard on defense. Yeah. And I just think that Kev, like one of the things I'm left with is, because this would be, well, maybe we'll wrap up on Summer League when we next week, but after we watch it all play out. But I'm left with watching all these guys and whether it's Peyton Watson, whoever's three points a game at UCLA, or it's Caleb Houston, who people don't really know that much about. or it's frigging J.D. Davidson who got drafted 53rd. Like, I'm kind of starting to think that we're not going to have bad drafts. I think there was a lot of years where there was bad drafts. But it dawned on me while I was at Summer League this year.

Man, I don't know how many times we're going to look back and just go, that was a bad draft. These players are so damn good. And there's good ones that get drafted, you know, used to be if you were in the second round, you probably, there's a really good chance you don't have a career and that's true of a lot of guys

but it's also, you now look at the back end of the first round and it's like every damn year there's a Desmond Bain and a Jordan pool and whoever. I mean, you could go on and on.

These are the kind of guys, maybe it's a Peyton Watson. What do he get taken? Like 30 something? 30, yeah, 30. Yeah, might be another one. Right? And you look down,

And so the depth of talent is just so great. It really is. There's always going to be, you know, good talent. It's just there's always misses too. Yeah, for sure. But I think to your point, you're saying there are more hits than there were in the past. Is that kind of your... Yeah, and I just think that the level of player you can get lower.

You know? Like we used to say, like, the Spurs made a... title out of this, right? By being able to grab Genobley where they did, they would routinely get guys maybe a little bit lower and they would be steals.

I'm just saying that these guys that are drafted lower are a higher caliber of player more routinely that there's more than 30 good guys. you know.

It's just about fine. You got to find him. Yeah, I mean, it's tough. Oh, for sure. It's tough. Yeah. But there's so many good players. So many good players to the point where I'm watching that kid.

And I'm like, how the hell is he a 30th trapback? Six, eight with a seven foot wingspan. Then I go look at his college numbers. I was like, oh, my God. What is it? What is it? Either they were just trying to hide him to make sure he comes back for another year. that happened with the kid at Memphis, Josh Minot.

You know, it just didn't play all that much. But the measurables and the tools are just freaky. And Minnesota got him late. So I was really impressed. The draft is hard, man. I know. It's so tough. I mean, whether you have a top pick or a second round picks,

it's like Herb Jones goes 35 last year. Right. You know, and it's the type of thing with Herb Jones. I remember, like, you're the first person. and I have a good conversation with about Herb Jones. He recognized his defense, the hustle, the attitude. And that was like two years before his drafts. He were talking to people around the league that loved him.

And yet he goes 35 behind, I mean, this is with all due respect, but like behind Santi Aldima, who is more of an unknown, right? And that's because Memphis drafted. Had 31 points two days ago. Hold on. Oh, no, I'm not saying that it was a wrong decision. I'm just saying that so many teams have different priorities in terms of what they're looking for and what is needed on that team.

Like Isaiah Todd, he goes 31 last year. Right. He's this top high school recruit who struggles in the G League, and he's going behind this dude who pretty clearly is going to be a really good defensive player for a long time. But even then, with Herb Jones, he may not have been as valuable in a different situation if he didn't have Fred Benson as a shooting coach. Maybe.

Situation, opportunity, environment. He was just another one of those, though, Kev, where it was like... He's going to have some level of... He's SEC player of the year, SEC defensive player of the year. Like, he's obviously good. Yes. Like, you know, like,

and at least great enough on defense to keep getting chances and chances and chances. Even if the shot never came along. And even then, like, he has a good rookie year shooting the ball, but he still needs to sustain it. And you'd like him to be better than 34, 35% as well. Yeah. But it's a great start.

It's a great start. There's always going to be misses. All I mean is, as I was watching those Summer League games, I am impressed by the level of talent that there is now in those Summer League games. Because I've been going to Summer League for a long time now and watching it for a long time now. The quality of Summer League, the quality of the G League, the level of players that's not even in those, like maybe even for Eggnight or that overtime. And then the quality in the NBA, it just keeps on getting better and better.

there's a higher caliber of player. I routinely watched guys in Summer League where I'm like, geez, and that guy can't get an NBA job. I think this can partially be contributed to just the internet. Kids are able to plug in, you know, the name of any basketball player,

any guitarist, any, any, you know, chef, and learn things and practice it at home on their driveway, kitchen, whatever it might be. And I think young people, people nowadays are able to have that advantage that prior generations did not, which allows them to, you know, there's some advantages and disadvantages to the internet as, you know, we don't need to get into it. But from in terms of learning stuff, the access to information is, I mean, you have the world in the palm of your hand with your cell phone. As long as you have a working internet connection, you have access to everything. And so I, that's my theory is that's part of it for the young players coming in. You can use it to your advantage. It can also be a disadvantage when they, you know, We've talked about many times. Reach the level of stardom way too early, right?

Yeah. And then you get addicted to the likes and retweets and the shares and all that type of stuff. I mean, there's a kid right now that's a high school player. My son follows him on Instagram. The guy poses with like, you know, hundreds of thousands of dollars in his hands, like, draped across a Lamborghini. Really? That's not.

The guy's got millions of Instagram followers. So, like, what do you? What's success? You're 17. Obviously he's got hundreds of thousands of dollars and a damn Lamborghini. What is success to you, Chris? You said, you said what is success to you?

I think success to me has changed dramatically. When I was 17, that was. You were all about the money in 17? Well, everybody, I didn't have some kind of like great world view about my family and a job that I felt secure and happy with. No. I didn't know what was going to go. I didn't know what was going to happen.

I looked across the street and or like I would go to, you know, some rich kid would get dropped off at my school and I'd see his dad's portion. I would look at it and I would go, wow, man, maybe one day. You know, like it was, I don't know, what, 17 cars and girls and money. It's what you want when you're 17, right? I wanted a 50 in Hela. A what? Yeah,

it's a rank. What a dork. I mean, I mean. You speak in a different language, my guy. I threw you the alley-of. All right. And you dunked it.

Okay, I wanted, this is why we're the miss. Yeah. What was success to you? Cars, girls. being good at sports money what'd you call it in HALO? A 50 It's the highest rank in HALO 3

You can get a 50 Did I ever get it? No, I didn't It's one of my greatest regrets in life I just never got it So you feel unsuccessful? Yeah I do

Still bothers me to this day Never got that 50s I'm not some kind of professional athlete Or I'm not I don't have as much money is that damn kid on Instagram. Yeah. Isn't that wild?

Kids can make that much money. Isn't that nuts? Like with the internet and everything nowadays? Like you hear these stories about 13 year old entrepreneur starts a business and that.

Then they have multi-million dollars. Yes. Yeah. Hey, good for them, man. Yeah. Good for that. The internet's a powerful thing. It is.

There's too many haters out there. I'm not a hater. Like, good for them. I'm glad they got their money. I mean, do I resent the hell out of them? horse, come on. But I'm no hater.

You can respect and resent at the same time. You have the capacity for those feelings to happen at once. Absolutely. Kevin, it is always a pleasure. Thank you to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always. And I'll talk to you next week. Looking forward to it. Have a good one, everybody.