The Mismatch - Banner 18 in Boston, the Mavs' Future, and Finals Takeaways. Plus, Who’s the Next Derrick White?

Episode Date: June 18, 2024

Verno and KOC congratulate the Boston Celtics on winning the 2024 NBA Finals! They discuss their dominant playoff run as well as their dominant play all season long en route to an NBA record 18th NBA championship (01:22). Where does this Celtics team rank among the all-time great teams? The guys also applaud Brad Stevens for making the necessary moves to win it all, what lessons owners can take from this year's Finals, as well as the redemption arc for Jayson Tatum and Jaylen Brown. Next, KOC shares some undervalued players he believes teams should target going into free agency, and what Luka Doncic and the Mavs need to do to not only make it back to the Finals, but to win it all (42:35). Got a question for Verno and KOC? Send them an email at [e-mail]! Or you can send the guys a tweet @ChrisVernonShow and @KevinOConnorNBA! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Social: Keith Fujimoto Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, my name is Dave Gonzalez, and I haven't read any of the books in George R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire. I'm Joanna Robinson and I've read every book in Georgia R. Martins, a song of ice and fire. And I'm Neil Miller and I have also read those very heavy books. Years ago, we hosted a Game of Thrones podcast called A Storm Spoilers, and we're thrilled to head back to Westrose to cover the second season of House of the Dragon on the Trial by Content feed. We'll be using our book knowledge to dive deep into each episode and answer your lingering questions. so send us a raven every week to trial by content at gmail.com. Follow and subscribe to trial by content on Spotify or wherever you get your podcast

to join us on Thursdays where these two will explain to me which Targaryen is right. Welcome to the mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon and join him as he does every Monday night from the ringer.com. It's Kevin O. Connor, A.K. Kevin O. Bomber. Kevin O. Kavanaugh. Kevin O. Climer. Kevin O. Kavanaugh. Kevin O. Kavanaugh. Oh, we got a champion. How you doing? I'm good. The Boston Celtics did, in fact, win the NBA championship tonight.

First title in 16 years. In fact, 16 years to the day of the 2008, anything is possible, Kevin Garnett title, a NBA record 18th championship for the Boston Celtics. And this was, unfortunately, like many of the finals games, rather non-competitive. This was a dud of a series in the end

where it was 107 to 98, 105-98, 106-99, 122-84, 106-88 tonight. And dominant run by the Boston Celtics, they end now their playoffs, going 16 and 3, 8 and 1 in the conference finals and the NBA finals. And that caps off what was in an absolutely incredible regular season, which we'll look back on here in a moment.

But here we are. Vegas was right. When we did our- When we did our preview for the series, I told you, man, there's a reason they've got all those. lights and all those shows and all those hotel rooms and all those places that we're going to be. And it's and it's and it's and it is terrifying me because not only are they saying that this series is going to be a Celtics win. They're saying it's not going to take very long to make

that happen. And those were the lowest odds on the board were Celtics in five. And sure enough, Celtics and five cashes tonight. You and I both are wrong about this one. We were swept up in what took place in the Western Conference, swept up with what Dallas was able to do against Minnesota. And obviously, it was a lot harder to gauge on the other side with the level of competition that bossed face. They didn't play a team that even had a chance at beating them.

Didn't even play a team with a healthy star. But they did in this one. and they mauled them to. To me, that puts to bed what they just did to Dallas, especially with losing Porzingas. They tried to try him out there in this game, and it was the only thing that I thought

kept Dallas alive for a little bit in this game. I felt like they were going to blow them out. I know. They attacked them over and over, picking pop, picking pop. I mean, they had it, They had a little flurry, even though poor Zingas ended up plus eight in the game. But, I mean, you're right, Chris.

I mean, I think for Boston, this was the ultimate tests. We found out who they really were. And I think, like, the first three rounds, of course, it was a cakewalk for Boston, but Dallas was a formidable opponent. Luca is an unbelievable player. Kyrie completely struggled in this series, especially the games in Boston. And definitely the home court crowd had something to do with that, as Kyrie admitted himself. but more than anything, I still think it comes down to this Celtics defense is absolutely extraordinary.

The way they took away, as we've talked about, the lobs and the corner threes. They made things difficult on Luca. They made things difficult on Kyrie. They have dominant perimeter defenders and Derek White and Drew Holiday. Those guys are versatile where they can help at the room. You see the block White had tonight at the rim? I mean, like, so few guards can do that. Tatum and Brown.

you can criticize Tatum for some of the scoring. Tonight he was very good, but he's always been very good defensively, has length and versatility. And then Al Horford, man, after some real, like, down games for him in the playoffs when Boston was playing every other night, he was great in the finals for the Celtics.

And, I mean, obviously, poor Zingis in the first two games before we got hurt was stellar as well. So this is really for Boston. You know, with respect, the Celtics team owner, said it after when he was standing on the podium. He was asked about, you know, you realize you guys had to make changes, and he credited Brad Stevens for that and knowing that they had to improve. And, I mean, to me, this is like top to bottom, an organization championship.

Obviously, players play, and they're the ones who win a title. They're the ones who earn it most. But Joe Missoula a year ago, you know, second row Joe is Bill Simmons' dad, always called him. I mean, he improved significantly as a coach. And then, like, you look at the front office with Brad Stevens, the moves that he made in Whit Grossbeck empowering him to make changes to the team. Not a lot of owners would say, you're okay to trade Marcus Smart, a fan favorite, but they did it. They improved the team getting Chris Staps, Porzengis, they improved getting Drew Holiday,

taking advantage of that situation that unexpectedly came up. And this has been the theme for the Celtics for decades under Whit Grossbeck's team owner. They were willing to trade Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce 10 years ago with Danny Eusts. A. A. H traded two fan favorites, two guys who have their jersey numbers retired, and that's what ended up landing them, Tatum, and Brown. They were willing to always take risks, even if sometimes

didn't work, like trading Kendrick Perkins for Jeff Green. 20 years ago, they traded Antoine Walker, a fan favorite, one of Danny Ains's first moves. Whit Grossbeck has always, as an owner, empowered his GMs to make the tough moves, and Stevens has nailed every move ever since he took over for Ainge,

and I think, like, you've got to credit them for even sticking with Missoula. So, I mean, I just wanted to say that about the Celtics because I think, you know, the players will talk a lot about them later on. But from an organizational standpoint, I think the Celtics set the tone for the types of risky moves you're going to make. Regardless of how people are going to feel about it, sometimes that's what leads to a championship. And to your point, how many awesome players they have on that team that contributed in big ways that you could call out one after another and memories from this dominating run in the conference finals and then the finals. I was glad that Jalen Brown was awarded the MVP, especially after watching him literally slink or fight past every screen that they tried to set for Luca Dachic.

I mean, the level of tenacity that he had guarding Luca Dantzich, you want to talk about setting a tone. Holy mackerel. But honestly, if Adam Silver would have said Jalen Brown or he would have said Jason Tatum, or if he would have said Drew Holiday, I would not have been blown away. Like if any of those guys, if somebody would have voted them as the MVP of the series,

and inevitably we'll see the way the voting came out eventually. But none of those guys, you could have made a case. I mean, I thought Holiday made winning play after winning, and even tonight, any time it felt like Dallas got another stop that they really needed. They didn't get the stop because Drew Holiday flew down the middle of the court, grabbing another offensive rebound. And to your point about Boston's defense, Kev, they suffocating, number one.

I mean, the Mavericks scored 122 in game four. They didn't break 100 in any other game. And tonight, there was a 12-minute span. that Boston scored eight points in and still had a huge lead. It made no difference. They missed every bunny at the rim for 12 minutes straight. That third quarter, it felt like, I mean, if Dallas,

if Dallas had a big quarter, like it would have ended at the fourth quarter pretty close and Boston would be scared they're blowing a big lead, but they didn't take advantage in part because even though Boston wasn't scoring, they didn't let it affect their defensive energy. or effort or focus, they stayed locked in. And that's a credit to the growth of this team. Their resilience, they've been through it.

They've taken those scars and past playoff heartbreaks. And that's ultimately why they didn't blow it, you know, in game two, when they had a big lead. They held on. That's why they hold on again tonight because they continue playing with great effort on defense. Yeah. And six East Finals for Brown, five East Finals for Tatum. Obviously, this is their second trip to the NBA finals. And there they are at the end.

Unbelievable run by the Celtics. No way around it. Congrats to them. Let me set that aside. This was a dismal ending to an incredibly dismal playoffs. Like you and I live and die with this stuff every year. This is our eighth season doing the pod. This sucked.

it really did. Just a lot of blowouts. As a basketball observer, someone that settles in, I look forward to these games. Every night there is one. And I settle in and I watch and like, all you want is competition.

And we didn't get it. We didn't get competition. A lot of blowouts, a lot of injuries, a lot of series that didn't go deep. And like obviously you can point to some series. Philly and the Knicks.

Yeah, You can point to that. You can put the point to Wolf's Nuggets. You can point to some interesting games. But I definitely didn't feel like, you know, with all those contributing factors, the blowouts, the short series, the injuries, that these playoffs were on par with some of the playoffs that you and I have been able to discuss, you know, over our eight seasons doing it. And that's disappointing. It's a hardcore NBA fan.

And I think also, I mean, I, you know, I had an exchange on social media tonight going back and forth someone who was like, yeah, but like, you can't put it all in the playoffs. The season matters, too. It does matter, but the playoffs matter most. And that's where it's disappointing where, you know, it didn't, it didn't, it didn't peak. Like, you like when the conference finals and the finals is where everything peaks. It didn't, it's like, it's like a great TV show with a poor finale. That's what it felt like to me. And even, look, what we're hanging on to, we're talking about that, like, the Minnesota Denver thing.

It was like, it was super interesting, but those games weren't competitive. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. It was interesting the ebb and flow of that series. Is this partially because of the state of the game with the three-point shot? Maybe. Is that part of it?

Maybe. I think there's a lot of contributing factors, but I think that has to be one of them. Well, and look, and with Boston, it has to do with dominance. The truth is they were not a team that was competitive all year with their. opponents. You know, when you... No, no, no. I'm talking about Boston.

Because they were so dominance, yes. When you look back, you're going to see, like, you know, now we look at all, all those records that we were like, yeah, cool, yeah, cool. Those now are all very, very meaningful. They were cemented, yes. That's what this does. You know, it does. Like, you know, a all-time team?

Like, do you think this cements them as like an all-time great? I don't see how you... Single-season team. I don't see how you cannot considering, look, in terms of just point differential, and it'll bear itself out after all, this is added up as well. But just during the regular season, the 82 games that are played, you had the 71,72 Lakers, the 70-71 bucks, the 95-96 Bulls, the 16-17 Warriors, and they are fifth in the history of the NBA in point differential for a season with 11.3 was the number.

Ahead of the 71, 72 bucks, ahead of the 96-97 Bulls, ahead of one of the great Warriors teams, one of great spurs teams. I mean, the numbers are the numbers, man. They're fifth in terms of point differential. But again, none of that matters if you don't win the whole thing. and they won the whole thing. And so now we look back. Instead of just being like, oh, yeah, that was a great regular season team.

Now that is used in the context of an all-time great team. You know, that's what it does. That's what the playoffs do. That's what winning the finals does. Because you look back at those stats now and they become incredibly meaningful. I think. It told a story. One of the questions on my mind with Boston is, how innovative will this team be? Because think about their reliance on the three-point shot.

They led the league in three-point frequency during the regular season. They led it in the playoffs. Over 44% of their shots were threes. It's like there were nights that they had, you know, over half their shots came from three. They were 40 and one on the season when they hit over 40% of their threes. It's just like pure dominance. 40 and 1 when you hit, first of all, you have 41 games during the season of playoffs when you hit over 40%.

That's crazy. But then you're 40 and 1 in those games. And you think back to those Mori ball rockets, the way in which they got to their three-point shots. It was heavy pick and roll, heavy isolation, play after play, the ball in James Hardin's hands. Or then eventually it was with Russell Westbrook or Chris Paul. It was ISOs and pick and rolls over and over and over and over.

With Boston, it's a lot of driving kick, but it's also a lot of different types of actions. They have a versatile half court offense. They have a selfless half court offense. They put guys in a different positions on the floor. Sometimes you have Drew Holiday setting screens, rolling to the basket. Sometimes you have him in the dunker spot. Sometimes he's bringing the ball up the court himself. There's guys in different spots all the time, and they get to those threes in a selfless manner.

So I just wonder if teams around the league are looking at Boston. lost and thinking, hmm, how can we build out our team with good quality depth of players who are willing to move the ball around and can shoot it? Easier said than done, of course. But there's some things that are simple. There are some things that are difficult to achieve, right? The simple thing is they've got two stars. And then I think the real lesson of this team is the type of role players, getting guys great players to be role players. be okay to sacrifice. That's the brilliance of this Celtics team. How do you how do you find those guys all the time? I mean, look, Bill wrote about this 20 years ago in his book with with Isaiah

Thomas, like the disease of more, right? Everybody wants more. And Brown and Tatum are the guys that the two jays, everything functions around them. But those guys, the Horford's of the world, the holidays of the world, the whites of the world, the porzing, they were all house, they were all willing to play a role and revolve around those two guys. It wasn't somebody that like came in and said, I need 20 shots as well, right? It was everything kind of revolved around those two guys. Just some stats on this when you talk about adapting. They had, I pulled this from the Boston Globe last week when they were going through the different accomplishments of this Boston team.

They had the highest offensive rating, 122 points per 100 possessions since the NBA began documenting full play-by-play in 97-98. So their way worked, Kevin, at least with their personnel, their way worked with their personnel. That's the trick. What you were saying, do you think other teams are going to do this? We said this with the Warriors. It was at a lower scale.

We said this with the Warriors. and what happened is now I watch a lot of basketball with a lot of shitty teams that don't have the personnel to be playing the type of style. There's all kinds of sorry-ass teams that still shoot the 43s in a game. It's crazy, right? And they don't have the personnel to do it.

This team had the personnel to be able to do it. They had the second lowest defensive rating in the league and as I mentioned, they were plus 11 on point differential. They scored more points than any other team in Celtics history. They almost scored 10,000 points this year. They won 10 games by 30 points or more, tying the 71, 72 bucks for most all time. They won a record three games by 50 or more.

Crazy. They won their 21st home games, had an 11-game overall winning show. streak in which they outscored opponents by an average of 22 points a game. So when I told you, this has been a non-competitive team throughout the year. They just beat people's asses. 64 and 18 in the regular season, the first team since the 75, 76 Warriors to finish at least 14 games ahead of the runner-up in their conference.

So you take all of these things now, they all become crazy. meaningful. Like, those are all marks of a great team, but they had to get the title for those all not to be remembered. Like, when we think about the 73 and 9 warriors, right? Nobody cares about anything that happened with the 73 and 9 warriors because they lost. Right. And so with the Celtics, now all of this stuff gets put into perspective. and they were an utterly dominant team the entire year.

And then they just wrapped up 16 and 3 in the playoffs. So, you know, we just got done last season. I remember Denver was 16 and 4. They were 16 and 4, right? Phoenix got two games. Minnesota got a game and Miami got a game. Yeah. That was it.

Yep. And then for Boston, they were, you know, 16 and 3 this year. And now their top seven guys are all under contract for next season. So they're going to be right back there as another team that could potentially make another deep run here. Did you see that Wode's report before the game about how after this is over, you know, everybody can sign their contract? Five years, $315 million extension. I was like, yeah. We're really going to have to adjust to these numbers.

It seems to be talking contracts before, you know, at game five of the finals. I mean, yes. Yes. Yes. I also thought it was one of those moments where I'm watching it and I'm like, we are really going to have to just recalibrate. It's really going to, especially when we get to free agency in July. It's like, what are these numbers now, man?

Five for three. 15. Jalen Brown was 300 last year, right? You're going to have two players for over half a billion dollars. I mean, even when you and I started this podcast, I mean, this guy sent a clip to me a couple of days ago. I don't know if you saw it, but the guy sent a clip and he was like, oh, yeah, what do you want to say about this now? And it was you and me talking about whether or not the Derek White contract was good. Like when they first signed him from San Antonio, we were like, eh, that sounds like a lot, you know, at the time.

Well, yeah, they, they traded for him. So that was, that was, that contract was, that was an extension. And that deal was signed after their first appearance in the finals, if I remember correctly. Okay. I believe it was signed the year they made the finals against the Warriors. Okay. He struggled in the finals. He wasn't great in the finals that year.

whatever, whatever. I'm just saying, when I listened to it, I was like listening to the number. And I was like, that's nothing now. I mean, I think, I think Derek White himself would say, I've approved a ton since then. Yeah, oh, for sure. I mean, I think he would say that. Good job by you guys. He became one of the league's best shooters. Yep. Not just a great shooter, but one of the league's best shooters. Oh, and an amazing defender. I mean, yeah, I mean, he was, like, always been really good defensively. He's always been like a good. passer in the flow of the offense. Like in San Antonio, he was such a good connective piece. It's such a good, you know, big, long-arm, versatile defender. But the shot from three never worked, even though he had Chip England, one of the best shooting coaches in the world there with him.

It never worked. And then he gets to Boston. And then in his first full season with the Celtics, he becomes a knockdown guy. It's carried over to this year. It's carried over to the playoffs. Dude's amazing. I mean, that block he had tonight against the rim. Also, Poor guy is now having to look at all the memes of him and Face planted him and Lloyd Christmas from a Dumb and Dumber side by side with the chip tooth on the front, poor guy. He basically got curbstoms. He really did. That was literally face two court.

Okay. So we spent our time on Boston. Anything else of Boston? Anything else that we didn't hit the Peyton Pritchard three at the end of the half. I thought Breen had a really good call on that. He said, he loves doing these. And everybody in the arena knew it was coming. Then he hit it.

That's where I felt like I knew the game was over. You got sucked in for those. Oh, you want to do the when the game was over thing? Yeah. When I thought, okay, I'll tell you when I thought the game was over. It was during that span where the Celtics like missed every shot. Okay. The third quarter.

Yes. Luca came up. They're down 17. And he pulled up and he shot that air ball three. Oh, yeah, yeah. And that's another one of us. Yeah, that's another one of those moments. His body language stunk.

The whole team just looked like, uh, and I'm like, okay, bro, like, you're not even chipping into this. And now here's your chance. You got another stop. You're still down 17. He pulled up for three, like a step back three, airballed it. And they were like, and now he's one for 22 or something. I was like, God, man, make a three.

great one for 22 geez I was like all right this thing we can go on fast forward to the end of this this stinks um and look

anything else from the Boston side I just want to make sure we touch everything Sam Hauser had a good first half he was really good defensively hit the two really good threes coming off screens he was great two things most happy for Horford yeah Unbelievable pro who's from the 07 draft class.

Oh, seven, yeah, that's the Durant Odenier. And Conley is still around. And there's not that many of those guys still around. Not many at all. And he has been a great professional basketball player for a very long time. He's going to be a Hall of Famer. You think so? Yeah, with his career longevity, the college basketball success with the titles at Florida.

Oh, yeah, it's the basketball Hall of Fame. Yeah, it's the basketball Hall of Fame. And he's been the playoffs so many times. He's been a good player for so long. I think he'll be a Hall of Famer because of the college success as well. He was on the 60-win Hawks team. Yes, yeah, exactly. So, I mean, I mean, maybe, maybe not.

Maybe one-goers. How many all-stars he got? Five? Let me look that. Probably, I bet he's a five-time. There's not that many five. Horford, five-time All-Star, one-time all-N-B-A. So he's borderline, but if you factor in college heavily, I mean, the back-to-back titles

was pretty legit and he was amazing in college. So, I mean, we'll see. By the way, he could return next season. I don't know if he's going to retire. He could win back-to-back potentially. You never know with Boston. Who knows if they come back next year and do it again? You know, we were talking earlier about what are the lessons of what do people try to mimic?

And this one is a tough one because we have always. said history has told us. It's something that I've talked about every year. Like, you gotta have a top five player in the league. And really the last example of the total team unit that pulled it off was that Chauncey Billups, Rip Hamilton, you know, Rashid Wallace, like that, that Pistons team. And that is so many years ago. Like, they didn't have one of the consensus top five players.

And yet, Tatum was all NBA this year. His first team all NBA. So if you want to say that. And Brown received votes. He received votes as well. And if you want to say that's a top five player, but I don't think most people have him in the top five list. And he did not play like a top five player in this finals at all. The point is this was a collective.

And we haven't had, there's usually the star. And he's the guy and he's the one. That's really. I mean, can you think? You got to go back that far. I know. I mean, like, maybe like 11 Mavs. I mean, Dirk was awesome, but was he the level you're talking about?

But he was the best player by a wide margin in that series. Yeah, and carried him. Well, no, I mean, on that team. Oh, for sure. Yes, yes. Right. Exactly. Whereas Tadam was the best player all year long.

He didn't win Easter Conference Finals MVP or finals MVP. No. No. You know? and probably the right call in both instances. Maybe one of like the young Kauai or young, you know. Yeah, like the Spurs when they beat the heat. Yeah, maybe that year because Duncan was so old at that point.

And that is a collective. It's Parker, it's Snowfully, it's Kauai. I think the Spurs count that year. I think that's fair. I mean, obviously Dunk is one of the best 10 players ever. Yeah. But at that moment was he? Absolutely. No.

So, I mean, and ultimately that is the collective is like, how do you build that collective? How do you get that depth? And obviously, Boston was very fortunate to get the guys that they did. I mean, Drew Holliday gets traded by the Bucks. You're the team that's able to make the offer to get him. Chris Stapps for Zingis has a year where he has a good season with the Wizards and you get him for a discounted price because nobody else is really seeing the potential on him like Boston did. You go out to get Derek White for a lower cost, betting on him to improve his shot. Well, that's exactly what he did. And I think for Boston, the choice to also keep certain guys, keeping Tad and Brown together, keeping Joe Missoula's head coach, even choosing to hire Missoula.

It's fortunate in some ways. Udoka, obviously those circumstances, he gets fired. Well, Will Hardy, the guy who would have gotten that job and ended up getting hired by the jazz earlier in the season. It's a mixture of good fortune and good decision making. but what's in your control is those decisions and they nailed every single one of them, even getting Sam Houser as an undrafted creation as a knockdown shooter.

You also signed Danilo Gallonari as a veteran. Gallo gets hurt. Houser takes that role and he becomes a pivotal back-of-the-bench rotation guy in the playoffs. So who are those next guys that a team could target to kind of round out their rotation? Do you have any names in mind?

Because I have some names in mind that I think teams could potentially target the summer or should try to target the summer. Is that an undervalued Derek White type of guy? Okay, I'm going to let you get to the Derek White type of guy here in a second, and I'm just going to tell you, one of the things that you mentioned in there about the moves that they made, this kind of like gets forgotten.

Obviously, I have an awareness of it because of covering the Memphis team so intensely. The only reason that Marcus Smart is even on the Grizzlies is because the Brogden deal fell three. The Malcolm Brogden. So they moved off a smart, they moved off of Brogden, they moved off of Robert Williams, they moved off of Grant Williams. I mean, and this is a team that was, that's what makes this all so impressive and bold. And then Brogden fails the physical because he's moving on to the Clippers.

And who knows how, you know, that would have affected maybe them. and the season that they had if Brogden was playing for the Clippers this year, maybe that would have been a good thing for them. But nevertheless, that deal falls apart and then they go and they whip around and they make the Smart deal so that they have a place to move him so that they could still make that Porzengis deal because Smart was not going to be moved in that deal. That was a Brogden deal.

And you think about it, they lost game seven of the Eastern Conference finals and blew out their rotation. You know, Williams was big minutes, and Brockton was big minutes and won six men of the year. And Smart is, you know, a hundred playoff games with them. And who was the other one that I mentioned? Oh, Grant Williams.

Grant Williams, that's a big moment for them in their playoff runs in his first four years in the league. And so really bold, you know? It was like they still got Jay and Jay. I got something to add to that, Chris. Yep. Here's what would have happened last summer if that poor Zingis deal happened with Brogden going to the Clippers. The Celtics were going to trade Mark a smart to the Grizzlies anyway for Tyos Jones and picks.

Ooh. That's what my source has said at the time, and I've said throughout the season, that smart for Tyos Jones was originally going to happen as a second deal. With that Porzinga steal, the Brognan deal. But then that Porzinger's Brogden deal fell apart. So they had to reshuffle everything. And then Smart ends up in Memphis anyway. And Tyos Jones ends up going to the Wizards.

But then because they didn't get Tyos Jones, they were in position for Drew Holliday. Isn't that incredible? Sometimes it's luck, right? Sometimes it's luck, good fortune, being in good positioning. Tyos Jones would have been awesome for them. But he ain't true. But he ain't Drew Holiday, brother. No, no, he's not.

I love Tyos Jones. He is not Drew Holiday. Drew Holiday was like, I mean, look, getting holiday and poor Zingis is what delivered them this season that they had and the title that they just got. You know, those were unbelievable moves. And that's, I mean, Stevens deserves more credit. It's not the same skill set. That guy was a brilliant basketball coach. And it is not the same skill set to be a brilliant general manager.

And yet he somehow pulled off being a brilliant general manager. I mean, like one deal falls apart and then you manage to make something else work. And then opportunities come up. Like there's a rich Gotham is the president of the Celtics. And he had this quote years ago. I don't even like it might have been 10 plus years ago talking about the, I think this was after they traded Kevin Arnett and Paul Pierce. And Rich Gotham said at some Celtics event.

He's like, we want to be in a position to react to opportunities that present themselves. And we feel like this deal puts us in that position. And that was in regards to all the picks they got for KG and Paul Pierce. And he was 100% right with everything Boston's been able to do over the years. Like all of these deals we're talking about are a domino effect of that KG Pierce deal. That's where it all begins. That's the origin of it. And so I think it goes back to what I said earlier.

You've got to give ownership credit for empowering the front office to just be the front office. There's some owners that are meddling in deals all the time that's never really been the case with Boston. It's usually just Danny Age has been allowed to do whatever the hell he wants to do, even if it's pissing everybody off on the internet, everybody on sports talk radio saying, what's he doing? What's he doing? And same thing with Brad Stevens. Ever since he took over, he's been able to do whatever he wants to do that he feels for the best for his roster. And I don't think that's the case across the league. I know it's not the case across the league.

Of course it's not. Because a lot of owners are meddling. That's why the Hawks ended up with Trey Young instead of Luca. That's why the Kings have drafted Marvin Begley over Luca, just to tie this to the Mavs. That's why some of these teams are making certain trades or not making other trades because they're afraid of how fans are going to feel about it, how it's going to affect ticket sales. they want to play general manager themselves instead of empowering their decision makers that they hire. And again, I hate to like, you know,

credit an owner of a team, but I think it's worth noting in this case because it's something that other teams should be learning from. Like, you should just let your front office run the freaking team sometimes. That's one of the reasons why the Knicks have improved because James Dolan has taken more of a backseat and let that new Knicks front office just run things on their own without meddling into every single decision.

So it's just the kind of an overarching league-wide thought. Well, and look, I know it's a, it's a city where there's been 17 championships and there's a high expectation. 18 now, you know? Right, going into this year. 17 into this year. And there's a high expectation. But even so, if you got to six East finals and, you know, with Brown and five East

finals with Tatum and he came up short. every time and then he came up short in a game seven. There's a lot of guys that would back down from spending a fortune and paying a fortune for the team. And instead, he said, you know what meant? Like, they got $185 million payroll. Like, they are one of the top five payrolls in basketball. And that's get to the cusp, get to the cusp.

I mean, there's a lot that would just say, like, oh, man, I'm spending a fortune on this team every year and this ain't getting it done like i don't know if i would have been that patient i certainly no you would not have been that patient it's hard it's hard well and that and that's where that's the one area with gross spec does meddle in the sense that for him it's all about 18 that was always a slogan it's all about 18 that every year he was at the cellics seem to be contending and competing for championship and and like i think now he's it's going to be, it's all about 19, right? Like, what are the moves that can be made to contend for the next banner?

That's always what it's about is winning a championship and nothing less than that. And again, that's sometimes why, like, the way I was raised as a sports fan was star players getting cut, you know, traded before it feels like it's right. Owners that their only thing they cared about, that they were actually fans of the team before they were owning the team. Robert Kraft with the Patriots, Wick Rosebeck with the Celtics. You can't say that about Red Sox ownership for sure in Boston or in Bruins ownership for that matter. But with the Celtics and the Patriots, that's true. And with Grosbeck, you know, that's what it's been for them and what it will continue to be for them into the years to come. And we'll see. Boston is set up with this new CBA.

Like they do have this next year, they're going to be a high payroll team. And obviously Tatum's going to get paid. But after that, they do have some flexibility to shuffle the roster. and, you know, I think nailing this draft pick, they have the 30th pick in the draft in what is deep with good quality role players. If they're able to get a good role player on a cheap rookie contract,

like that's the formula with the CBA. Like, it's like hitting on your picks is all the more important. If you can get rookie contract contributors, like that's the biggest dub possible for your team more than it's ever been before. And it's always been a dub. Well, and also I will say it's a great payoff that won with Tate

have been brown because so cool all those fans that love that franchise and love that team it is so much better when you went through the downs with those guys right those are your guys you've been rooting for them since the very beginning of their career you saw them as rookies and now you get to see them achieve this after you watch them fail after you watch them fall on their face after you watched all the criticism after you watched everybody say hey maybe this is isn't our path. These two is not the path to an 18th title. If we ever want to get an 18th title,

then this isn't the path to do it. And so for them to stick with them despite, and I think it's a good lesson every year when we see teams losing, that just because you lose, like sometimes, like, this team didn't just take scars. This team took, like, deep wounds to get there.

And they stuck with it. yes, they shuffled the deck around those guys, but the core is the, the core is those two guys, those two guys. And they were able to find the right mix around them. And for all those kids that grow up in the Boston area or fans worldwide that love those two guys,

like this is the payoff. Yeah, it took, you know, after having it end in tears every year, it finally gets to end with hopefully joyful tears. for all those fans, right? And I love guys playing for one franchise.

I love guys that you went through. You know, they got, they got real history with those guys. It was the same thing in 08 with Paul Pierce. That's right. Paul Pierce was a guy who was, you know, getting driven out of town multiple times with the Celtics losing.

That's right. You know, after the pacer series, going to the podium with the bandage on his pace and, you know, all the losing. And he could have demanded a trade dance. Any age could have trade them, but instead they, you know, ended up with Ray Allen and then with Kevin Garnett after meeting KG and L.A. and recruiting him. That's right.

16 years ago today, it's hard to believe that they won that championship. That was one of the happiest days of my life. It's kind of crazy to think about, you know, how fandoms changed. Like, I missed, you know, I miss watching games with my dad. Like, I miss rooting for one team instead of being like a, like, I love what I do. But, like, I wish I could have retained the Celtics fandom, you know, like, I wish I I could have kept up. Especially this whole run, really, because it's like you said, this team endured. You got to see Tatum and Brown grow together and battle through adversity

and lose and overcome it. And I think, you know, these are the most rewarding championships over some of those teams that are, you know, quickly patched together, like just a quick super team, you know? And now it's unfortunate for those fans on the other side. This is the first Luca finals. Yes, exactly. Of what you and I both think is not going to be the last Luca finals. I would think it would be shocking if not. It would be shocking if he, you're right, if this is the only time we see him in the finals. Something goes terribly wrong in his career if he's not back in another finals, either injuries or B, like he just never learns from it. Or they don't, but he doesn't have the squad around him. It's good enough. That, that and that could in part

be due to my C here, that Victor Wenyama gets the roster around him, and he becomes LeBron-level dominant that he's representing the West basically every single season, which could happen. And then in that case, I would think Luca would leave from Miami, but that's a topic for another day in the future. For now, the Dallas are building from this up, and, you know, I would expect them to be back. We'll get to Dallas here in a moment. Let me hear your guys that are like Derek White that you think are, like you've

already obviously had that on top of mind when you're thinking about team building in regards to if teams look around the league and they go, hey, we want to be like the Celtics too. I would target these guys. Here, I'll give me three names. I have a bunch, but here's three. One, I owed Osumu from the Bulls. He's always been a good versatile defender on offense. He's always been a good cutter. Like he's the type of guy who will set screens and roll hard in the basket like a Derek White or a Bruce Brown. But then this year he also started hitting over 40% of his threes.

That has unlocked even more of his playmaking ability. I think Dosunmu, everybody talks about Levine and Caruso on the Bulls. I'd be targeting Dosunmu. So that's one. Oh, hey, you know what? You know who he's like? He's like my old guy that's

still banished to bad teams in Utah. Colin. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I'll forever want Colin's exit. Put him on a playoff team. Yeah. Colin Sexton could be on the long list too. I have a different guard, though.

Anthony Simons and the Blazers. Oh. Yeah, Simon's Catch and Shoot. Here's Anthony Simons, catch and shoot three-point numbers since his third season. That was kind of his breakout year. Catch-and-shoot three-point numbers.

53%, 46%, 40%, 46%. His dribble jumper three-point percentage is, again, since his third season. 33%, 34%, 34%, 36%, 35%. This past season, he averaged 5.5 assists per game, even though the Blazers were last than 3-point percentage this year.

He's only 25 next season. So he's an elite shooter off the catch. He's a very good shooter off the dribble. He's a significantly improved playmaker, and even though he's on the small side defensively, I think you put him in the right circumstances, like Orlando, for example, he could completely blossom as a talent to become like a,

potential star. So that's my second guy. All right. I was with you on I.O. because he's a dog. I don't think Simon's a good enough defender. Fair. Okay. Okay. Here's a defender then. Danny Avvia from the Wizards this season. I don't want anybody from that rat team. You can have them. You can have them. Let me Cory Kisper too.

This season, this season, like I wrote about one of the games he had earlier in the where he, like, he defended, like, every player on the Hawks. I know it's the Hawks, but he, like, locked down on Yek Aokongwu inside. He locked down Jalen Johnson. He locked down Trey Young. He's a versatile defender. This year, the Wizards put the ball on his hands more off, and he had a career high and touches.

Pass is made. Assists. He won four games. This is going to be funny. This is going to be funny when the Wizards end up trading Avdia, and some team's going to get a. playoff contributor. Will you throw in Johnny, what's his name from Wisconsin? Sure. You can throw in Davis. He can always be waived and joined Killian in China.

There's nothing. They didn't even run plays. Danny Adi Adi Adviya averaged 15 points per game and shot 37% from three. He's always been a great defensive player. They finally empowered him with the ball on his hands on the perimeter. He looked more like the guy that played overseas. So, Avdia. Oh my God. silence and dosir my three you are the guy that's going to produce the Instagram video Young bucks don't know Denny Obfew was a problem

Yeah but like who's like who's You got to look for guys on some crappy teams Or young teams All right I'm not gonna pluck a guy off A great team necessarily I mean like I'll give you one more Dayron Sharp from the Nets They're on sharp

really good rebounder, really good screener, really good passer. I think you plug them in with a team with a bunch of shooters. He could be a really good backup big for you. That's just another one. There you go. I think there's a lot of guys you can name, but you've got to look for some of these guys that are on, you know, not so good teams. Like Aaron Gordon, could you see? I think Aaron Gordon was a popular name for years in Orlando.

That's fair. And then he goes to Denver and boom. Like he becomes a pivotal star role player for that. team. So, you know, Caldon Johnson for the Spurs, maybe. I'm a little, I've soured on him a bit. And, you know, after last season, he's not the same guy defensively. Nick Richards, back up. You get Sohan, if you need a point guard.

I hope the Spurs keep Jeremy Sohan. All right. I bought a mere coffee on the Clippers. How about him? Yeah. Do you have anybody in that comes out? Because who would be the guy? I hadn't even thought about free agency yet.

Well, but, you've already moved a free agency. Well, I'm specifically asking you, is there anybody on Memphis that you think is underbell? Like, you would pluck, that you would hate to see plucked away from the Grizzlies that people don't really talk about. I mean, shooting is all, Kinnard is a free agent. Yeah, I think Kinnard's a good one. If they don't pick up his contract, yes, I would, I would tell somebody, that dude is the best shooter there is. He really is. He, percentage wise.

Yeah, percentage wise, numbers wise. Yes. I think Kennard's a good one. I mean, you want somebody that, like, hits threes? That's what he does. I don't know if they're going to pick up his contract or not, honestly. What about Conchar? If a team said we could make him a 40% guy from three.

Oh. But that's a big. That's my guy. That's my guy, but that's not happening. So you don't think he has any shot as a shooter, no chance. I mean, I just don't think he's going to be in a, I don't think he's going to be an eight-man rotation, like when you're talking about, like, a game like tonight. Even if he was a knockdown shooter.

I mean, he's not going to be in the Grizzlies eight-man rotation. So I'm saying even if he were like a 38, 39 percent guy from three on four shots a game. Even if he's not. That's what he's going to be. You don't think he has that in him just doesn't have the touch. Like Derek White, Derek White was always an 80% guy from the line. He was always a good mid-range shooter. And then he figured it out from three.

Conjars are great. Do everything. But shoot. 10 through 15. Yeah, I agree with you. I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, I'm just, canard is the one. Yeah, I'm just scraping the bottom of the barrel here.

You guys won 27 games this year. Well, your best three players were out. Give me a break. They were the two seed for two straight years. How soon do you forget? Yeah, I get it. How soon you forget? Meanwhile, your sorry-ass Pelicans ain't anywhere to be found.

Also, the Pelicans, they lost Fred Vincent. That's big coaching news. They lose Fred Vincent, who has been the most successful shooting coach in recent years. He was pivotal to the improvement of Brandon Ingram and Monzo Ball as two recently samples. And he goes to the Pistons where they got Osar Thompson. Even Cade hasn't reached his potential as a shooter. If Fred Vincent can make the same impact for just two guys on the pistons, like he did for the two guys in New Orleans.

It's the second worst thing to happen to the Pelicans this week. The first was that video of Mariah Mills on a track. Oh, my God. Zion, get help. All right. Let's get to Dallas. Where are we with Dallas after that dismal finals performance? I want to see Lively.

obviously as a rookie he needs to get over like the let's start with Luca specifically Luca needs to improve defensively that goes without saying he needs to improve his conditioning so he can last in fourth quarters I think that's priority number one number two Kyrie you better pray you don't play

in Boston again in the finals because I mean he's got some demons there that he can't seem to get over he needs to get over it somehow but like I think for the role players everything else in the roster lively, I'd like to see them explore more of the three-point shooting for him. That's something he did in high school. He hovered around 30% from three.

He was not a knockdown guy. He's a poor free-throw shooter as well. I don't even think his touch is that good on those little hook shots from the paint. But I'm curious if he can be one of those kind of Bruce Bowen type of guys who never shoots well from the line, but he also shoots a good percentage from three. So I'd like to see them explore some of that because they need even, like one thing I've realized. is with the switching defense, the way you can take away those lob threats,

when they don't have a post presence to counter it, like with Porzingis, you can post him and he can score over you. That was impivital to his development. With the Mavs centers, Gafford and Lively, neither of them are reliable shooters, neither of them are post players. And with Lively, I think that's the skill that can be, you know, okay, you're going to switch against us,

okay, we're going to have him spot up in the corner and drain 37% of his three. So I think adding that counter from him would be very, very important for the Mavericks next season. That's just one of many thoughts. What's on your mind with Dallas? Luca, Kyrie, I'm good with PJ Washington, 25, Goodwood. Lively's going to be my starting center going forward. I've got to improve that other wing spot. Have to. Derek Jones Jr. is fine. He's not starting caliber at this level. He's backup player. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's a good role player. you know, I want to bring him off the bench, give me energy, get up and down the court.

I actually thought the green minutes were impressive. And maybe Green can end up being a player, right? They can fall into that rotation. And honestly, by this game, they probably should have been starting lively and green anyway. I don't know what Gaffer. They're better than Gafford and Jones. Yeah. I mean, Green was one of the best role players in the same.

series for Dallas. They should have started those two. Lively is better than Gafford and Green is better than Jones. Yeah. In terms of the way this team functions. Nobody cares. At least they had lively playing significantly more minutes than Gafford. I understand. But just because he's a veteran placeholder, the better player should have been. That's my opinion. Yeah. I agree. And also Maxi Klieba, if he never refines his shot. And you got to get some, you got to, you got to get some you got to get some bench help you know what I mean yeah like they they they got to have some guys that can that are good enough that I'm not getting trashed when when my best players got to sit down for a little bit and so um you know they don't have a lot of methods uh to get better considering kind of how they sold out on some of it to get this team but it's a scary thing Chris they don't even have their first they only get the 58 the final pick in the draft that's it but I'm also going to give them

Look, they got smoked by an amazing team who's been in a million playoff games and is veteran laden. And honestly, like statistically, was one of the best teams that we've seen. Okay. Yeah. This team, we've seen them literally less than half a season together and they just made the NBA finals. To me, that has to be looked at as a massive positive. The fact that they went 16 and 2 before they punted those last two games of the season. and then they mowed down opponents in the Western Conference playoffs

to get to that point, I wouldn't. Look, I'm talking to, I think slight improvements, hopefully Luca obviously will learn from this, will commit himself to being a player that could get there at the very end, and then they'll give, maybe get some reinforcements around him, but I would not make drastic changes to it. And I would say, look, lively is going to get better and better. rookie. This is a first time through. And like we said, you're playing a core group that's played over

a hundred playoff games together and it's been in every imaginable situation in a series situation, in a game situation, in life situation. Like they've been through all of it. These guys, this thing was literally thrown together for the last couple of months. and got to the NBA finals. So I would look at it and say, man, I want a full training camp. I want a full season. I want to go through the ebbs and flows of a season. And obviously, I don't think there's that many things that need to be done.

I think you've got four of your starters. And maybe if you can make a decision on green. If you think green is your fifth starter, then so be it. But lively and green then go in your starting lineup and they're surrounded by Kyrie and PJ and Luca, and then I've got to figure out that bench. How aggressive would you be if you're the Mavericks with the remaining picks you have the trade? They can trade their 2025 and they're 2031, and they can also trade swaps in 26 and 29.

So they have two firsts and two swaps that they were able to trade. I'd be careful because they already gave the one for the in the Grant Williams deal, right? I misspoke there. And the Gaffir thing too, right? They cannot trade their 22-9 swap. They can only trade 25 and 31, and then their 26 swap. So that just- I got to hold on to some future assets.

Unless it's like an obvious deal. I think they're finally, this is the Tim Hardaway's thing falls off, right? Finally, I believe. So, and I kind of like Hardy. I think Hardy is a bucket-getter type guy. He's intriguing. Yeah, the Hardaway has one year left, sorry. Ugh.

Yeah. Try to move that to somebody that needs to save some money, hopefully. It could be an expiring you move. Mm-hmm. Maybe it's finally the time they can get rid of it. I mean, you can't, you can't be overly patient, though, because next year, if you're a second round exit and then the year after that, You know, you're a sixth seed and you maybe losing the first or second round again.

Well, then Luke is a free agent. I got you. So you can't be overly patient. You do need to, you don't want to rush things. You want to make smart moves. I mean, they just make the right moves. They're one of the last two teams. I'm just saying that, like, you're still going to make the right moves.

Sure. Well, and the Kyrie thing, we'll see if it, I mean, that may be only, that'll be a big thing. like is that is that a one more year thing or is that a he's got one year and a player option that's what saying so how long to how long is that how long is the best sidekick for luca karee and then that's a that's a big decision it's going to be made uh but for next year i think you get a couple reinforcements and you wrung this thing back because you just had a very short amount of time together and look what you were able to accomplish you were you know great yep i agree with you totally We're going to have to talk a lot about the NBA draft, which now the season's over.

We get to start talking about it on Thursday. So we'll reconvene on Thursday, and that will be exactly one week from the NBA draft. Before we get out of here, any news and notes on the draft that you've been thinking about since we last spoke? I know you were talking to me about the Hawks and how they, you know, they had done the clinic, clinging thing, and sounded like they were going to work out some of the foreign players. Yeah, they worked out Risa Shea last week. I'm just trying to think if there's anything new

in my mock today. I did update the mock. People can check that out on the ringers NBA draft guide, new mock, new big board. But I think that like the past couple of days have been fairly quiet

with like solid stuff. I think we're going to get a lot. Yeah, I mean, honestly, we might wake up to some stuff would be my expectation. Oh,

really? Yeah, I just think like the next few days we'll get a lot more news. Well, for sure. That'll be the news dump because we've got to have

something talk about. Yeah. Yeah. Right. I, uh, we really have not heard very much about like, oh, my God, this guy had an amazing workout in blank. Or it hasn't been as much, uh, you know, news about. Yeah.

These teams are getting much more secretive about who they work out and when they work out and who they might be interested in. And so one, one name I did hear that had a good workout. Um, you know, that group workout, the Blazers had. with like six prospects. You heard about that. I heard Ryan Dunn was a standout in that. Ryan Dunn.

Virginia? Yeah, out of Virginia. I heard Ryan Dunn has had some really strong workouts. Interesting. So since you mentioned, but like there's not a lot like, you know, workout stuff.

There was some pro day stuff a few weeks back. But, I mean, pro days are for Hearst, you know, they're not that meaningful for a lot of GMs and executives. Right.

All right. Well, we'll be getting, uh, deep into the, draft starting on Thursday. Thank you to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always. Congratulations to the Boston Celtics on banner number 18. And Kevin, I will talk to you on Thursday night. Congrats to the Boston Celtics. Happy good week, everybody. Must be 21 plus in present select states or 18 plus in

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