The Mismatch - Ben Simmons Saga, Tom Thibodeau Benching His Starters, and the Evolution of Physicality

Episode Date: November 12, 2021

Verno and KOC touch on the Pacers-Jazz game resulting in four ejections and discuss the side effect of a higher level of physicality in the game (0:58). Then they discuss Toronto’s win at Philly and the new advancement in the Ben Simmons saga, with reports about his mental health (27:27). Lastly, they weigh in on Tom Thibodeau benching his starters and discuss how the Knicks rank among the rest (58:08).  Hosts: Chris Vernon, Kevin O’Connor Associate Producer: Erika Cervantes Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Listen up all you New York fans. Veteran New York sports talk host, John Dostrompsky, gives his unique take on all the big stories in the Big Apple and beyond, including guest conversations, gambling picks, and reactions from you, the listener. Check out New York, New York with John Dostromsky on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Mishman. I'm Chris Vernon. Join me. He does every Friday from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, A.K. Kevin O'O.comber, A.K. Kevin O'O. Conflict. Kevin O'C., Kevin O'O. Kahnie. Kevin O'Connor. A couple of the Ringer.com. throwbacks in there. Obama. No concert. I got to keep them on their toes. I got to keep them on their toes, Kevin. Those are some of the original ones, aren't they? We have

we'll talk about some of the games that took place last night because there were some interesting stuff that took place, and then we'll get to the stories of the week. First thing is we had a game last night that had four ejections in the game, and that was at the end of the Pacers Jazz game, Miles

Turner blocks Rudy Gobert. Gobert grabs his shorts, pulls him down, Turner gets up, bumps him. This turns into Hugfest, 2021. And then- Great hugging. Sure, great hugging last night. Joe Engels comes in.

He pushes Ed Malloy out of the way. Donovan Mitchell bumps a ref. And all four of them get thrown out of the game, ejected from the game, and who knows what kind of penalties are going to come down. But it's not as much this particular, ridiculous mini-melee. it is that this is now the second time in a week. We do two shows a week.

And we're talking about two different fracuses in each show. And one of the things that has been a common thread amongst people observing this NBA season is that it is a more physical brand of basketball. Free throws are down. And it has been a more physical brand of basketball. that is being played. And I cannot help but think, because we are only 10 or 11 games into this season, if this is going to be the side effect of, right?

That we, yes, there are less files being called. Yes, there are more free throws being taken. In fact, at a historically low rate. But the level of aggression is going to get higher once the competition gets better and the game gets more physical, Now you are putting into play guys tempers in a way that we have not seen all that much. It would be here and there. But we've already had a couple of these already in the season.

We've had a lot of techs early in the season. And players kind of getting into it. And so I couldn't up but think last night as that game's playing out. I mean, at some point somebody's going to throw punches. And then, oh, God, do we have to go back to we needy ball? after that happens, right? You call it weenie ball? Weenie ball.

How'd you come up with that in fourth grade or something? No, it's it's it's bad it's basketball for weanies. So you have brought back physicality, but the shrapnel of that is Rudy Gobert and Miles Turner hugging each other and ejections and you know, not fights, but like, you know. No, that's not even close to a fight or even a. like it's a scuffle. It's a scuffle. But really it was just a nice hug. It was, but at some point one of those guys is going to throw a punch. That would be by prediction. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's definitely possible. Did you see last week when Joelle O'Bade after I think not getting a follow call, he kind of swung his fist and got Lonzo in the forehead. Yeah. It didn't, it wasn't

an intentional thing at all. Right. A punch was kind of thrown and made contact. Somehow Lonzo didn't get knocked out from that. That was he had a lot of momentum behind that fit. Well, and I don't know if you saw Terry Rozier tweet, his tweet that was going around this morning. I did not. The NBA is becoming the WWE or something like that. Because, I mean, it is twice in one week that we have had these like fake fights. And I'm just saying at some point, somebody's going to get actually mad and somebody's going to hit somebody. And then I worry about it because there is an increased level of physicality.

and you are seeing guys, tempers shoot off in a way that we had not seen before. And I think you could draw a, you know, a straight line between, you know, if you're letting more stuff go, guys are going to get more frustrated. And then when they get more frustrated and heated, tempers are going to flare. Testosterone rise. Yeah. They're all angry. That's right.

I mean, who knows? I mean, hopefully no fists are thrown at any point. point this season. But I mean, I saw the tweet that Rosier was responding to. He said the NBA, NBA, the new WWE, shake my head. And he was responding to a quote from Rudy Gobert after the game where Gobert said, guys need to stop acting like they're going to fight. They know in two seconds there's going to be 20 security guards in between us. Guys that are not about that life need to stop acting like they are. If somebody wants to fight, if somebody wants to fight, I'm easy to reach. Well, one thing I'll say about Rudy Gobert and the feature story I reported about him this year.

is i didn't know he boxed since i think he was like nine or ten years old he used to do boxing and there's this one time he had a quit because like he like injured his fist or something for like a cut something like that i don't know i don't know i didn't get the full story because it wasn't part of the story i didn't report it out but he stopped boxing when he was like 12 13 years old i believe he's resumed like many professional players are in their training so rudy gober might be about that boxing life um street fighting street fighting is a different category i I'm not sure for Miles Turner either. I know,

I know he was raised in a good household. Miles Turner's not a fighter. I must say that if I were, if I were compiling a list of NBA guys that are in the words of Rudy Gobert about that life. About that life. I think it would take a while before I'd get to Rudy Gobert. But I think that's fair.

It is fair considering the amount of, you know, players like we talked about earlier this week with the Morris brothers, Morris brothers and Yokic. Yep. Both of their own respective ways come from tougher backgrounds. a war and torn country for Yosich. These are.

And the Morris brothers, I don't want to, I don't want to fight those guys. But I mean, you are, you are seeing heightened levels of aggression in these games. And that is, you know, it, again, this is twice in one week. And I don't think that because guys are getting frustrated about not getting calls. I was watching back all the, all the clips from that game. like kind of leading up to where when that happened. And there was twice where Donovan Mitchell was like caught on the mic yelling at the referee as he finished to drive.

You know, like things were, things were boiling over, right? And, you know, again, I'm a fan of the more physical brand of basketball and that they are and that there's a better flow to these games and we're not getting as many stoppages. And the games aren't going regularly two and a half hours. you know, a lot of these games are being played in two hours or right at two hours. I do think all of that is better.

I just know that we haven't seen much of this over the course of the past couple of years. And I don't think it's necessarily bad. I really don't. Like I don't want to spill it over to the crowd. I don't want anybody getting like super hurt. But I also don't know if it's bad for the league to become. more physical and that that is a a repercussion of that is that you're going to have guys getting into it. But I don't I don't necessarily think guys getting into it is bad. But it can get

bad. It can. Yeah. It, you know, it opens potential for, you know, you don't want another malice in the palace. You don't want that. That's fans, right? That was fans. Exactly. Yeah, it was, that was driven by fans there. Well, not necessarily the players. Right. But you can't let it spill over into the crowd. You know, people have to be adults. But yeah, I don't know. I mean, I think overall, we've talked about it every week in the show, Chris. The basketball encore product is sensational right now.

And if it means there's a couple more like fake, fake fights, scuffles, some dancing, spinning around hugging each other like Turner and Gobert did last night. So be it. So be it. I mean, it's silly. It's silly. Like Gober said, they're not going to fight. They're just not going to fight.

And if it happens, it's going to be an exception. I just don't see it happening. I think guys are going to police themselves. And it's just going to be a lot more of what we saw last night, if anything. Yeah. But also it was a good game. It's a good game. It's a close game.

Oh, for sure. Yeah. And Brogden was off the chart. Yeah. He was great down the stretch. But with Utah, Utah is interesting, Chris. They have the second offensive rating. They were not good offensively last night.

But their second and offensive rating in the NBA, despite being 20, fifth and three point percentage. It's pretty weird. It's a weird thing for Utah because they're third in the NBA. Let me just say the number straight. Second and the NBA in offensive rating. Third in the NBA in three point attempts. But 25th in the NBA in three point percentage.

Utah is shooting way worse from three than they were last year. And like it's one of the reasons why like even last night's game they lost. They were nine of 32, 28%. If they start shooting three is the same way they did, last season, their offensive rating is going to go boom. It's going to go boom. They're a funky team so far this year. In Indiana, I mean, like I said, they had a good game, dude.

Like they have a lot of talent on their roster. Duarte still continues to impress. Brogden, as you said, last night. Indiana's got a good team, good players at least. Yeah, and I, you know, again, guys have been, guys have been a little wary of out and out blaming the ball, but when they get asked about it, you are seeing that a lot.

Now, the last time they tried this, now that was different because they went from leather to synthetic. It was a different kind of ball. And we got to about December, and they switched it back, right, of that year. And that was many, many years ago. This time around, just, I went to go look because, I'll give you an interesting one.

Last night, there was that Clippers heat game. Duncan Robinson is, shooting like an abysmal percentage. It's like 35% or something like that for him. It's low for him. No, no, no, no, no. It is not 35%. No.

It is 31%. That's what he's at 31% on nine attempts per game. At nine attempts a game. And I think last night was another one of those nights where it was, it was bad for him. And I went to go look to see if anybody had asked him about it. And, you know, he's got the pressure of signing the big contract. We've talked about guys and how. kind of a month needs to pass

before it just becomes the new norm for them that the expectations they put on themselves and the pressure they put on themselves when they sign big deals. But he said, if you threw me a Wilson ball and he threw me a spalding ball

a hundred times out of a hundred, I could tell you the difference. As soon as I touch it. And there are other guys, I saw Paul George saying this one, every spalding ball felt the same. and these oddly feel different and they hold moisture differently

and they get slicker and you see more bad misses than you've ever seen before. That's what Paul George said. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm just interested by the whole thing. I'd be curious to know if that's like an anecdotal experience. Like if one day, you know, his hands were just sweatier.

There's more humidity in the gym. And he just thought the ball was different when really the ball is the same. the atmosphere. I don't know. I'm just talking off the dome here. I just wonder, you know, how different the balls really could be, you know, for players, is this just an adjustment period? That's close enough to the spalding ball. It's not like the numbers have, you know, are way down. League-wide free throw percentage is 77.0% instead of, you know, the last four years was 77.8, 77.3, 76.7. Free throw percentage is not far off from what it's been. Three-point percentage is slightly lower.

34.4% down from 36.7, 35.8, 35.8. So it's a slight dip, but it's not a dramatic falloff on free throw percentage or three point percentage. I believe it was maybe Seth Partnauer from the athletic did a study that a three point percentage is usually lower in the first part of the season. So, I mean, like, this isn't out of the norm. And one of my theories would be that there will be an adjustment period for, many of the guys that are quote shooters right more so than more more more more so than other guys and with any change and you're never going to hear this there's for sure guys out there that probably love it and I I don't know if you saw this I don't know if you saw this tweet we got the tweet that we got and the guy Wilson the guy The guy did a callback to a tweet that you had sent years and years ago about Lonzo and a Spalding ball and a Wilson ball. Yeah.

So with Lonzo Ball, in 2017, I wrote a story for the ringer. The key to understanding Lonzo Ball's funky jumper. And this was March 2017 when he was finishing his year at UCLA. And last his first year at UCLA and his final year at UCLA. he shot significantly better with the Wilson ball in his hands. And the Wilson ball is what he grew up using in, you know, junior high, AAU, high school. And at the time, 26 games using the Wilson ball,

he shot 44% from three compared to 34% with the Nike ball. And the reason why I even looked that up or thought to look that up during his college here in the first place. It's because a couple of executives who mentioned, you know, we sometimes look into like the type of ball players are using certain, you know, conferences, use balls that guys tend to shoot a lower percentage. So we look into that and he's like with Lonzo, it could be a thing like that too. And it was. And now Lonzo shooting, you know, like 44% from three using the Wilson ball better than he's ever been before. Lonzo, he might be loving it right now. But he's like, he's gotten better every year with the Spalding ball,

but the Wilson ball probably came at the right time at his development for him to go, boom, Chris. And I may be, and I may, and I may just be using confirmation bias and looking for some kind of reasons, but you know one of the best shooters, uh,

that we have seen that as a young player in the league is Desmond Bain, who I regularly watch. He, he's made about one of his last 20. Chris, we did a, we did a Desmond Bain video today.

Oh, is that right? Poor timing when he was like one for 13 the other night. No, no, he's seriously like one for his last 20 from three. And then I watched Robinson last night. And I'm like, I wonder with these guys that are shooters. It's such small samples, though, Chris. I know.

It is. And if he hits. They're great shooters. They're going to end up making shots. So just to just like to explain, Desmond Bain is 27 of 80 from three right now, which is 33.8%. If he made five more, he'd be 40%. And nobody would even be talking about. Oh, Desmond Bain's during.

I'm talking about recently. Oh, I know, I know. The recent side. Because he started the year, great. Yeah, the last three games is one for 17. So imagine how great he was before that. Yeah, I mean, it's still so early. I mean, I think for me, when it comes to some of the percentages,

either from the line or from three, I'm going to wait until halfway point. Totally fair. You know, it might just be a small sample. It might just be a small sample. And I think, you know, from what I understand, people have talked to with the league, the ball is like close enough. that it's not something that's be super difficult to adjust to

like the synthetic ball years ago. That was dramatically different. That was a whole new thing. They were touting it out, innovating the ball. It's a brand new experience. It was a brand new experience and players hated it. This is similar enough that the guys are going to be able to adjust it. If you don't, that's your problem.

The only way they change it is if LeBron James said he hates the ball and then they I wonder if LeBron came out and said he hates the ball and they got to change it. I wonder what they do. I think they would say, hey, LeBron, you're shooting the best from the free throw line that you have in like 10 years. Well, you're also not playing. Yeah, you're also not playing right now. So get back on the court, buddy. You're killing our national TV programming.

Yeah, no kidding. The game that I watched that was the early game was the NBA TV game, which was Toronto and Philly. Now, Philly was without Joelle and Bede in this case. They did get, they Tobias Harris there. You saw Maxie, Chris. You saw Maxie. I love Maxie. I really do. I love Maxie.

Good player, man. He's at a couple, he's at a couple recent really good scoring outputs to say the least. But just watching that game last night, they are, that Raptors team, you had Van Vleet make some huge, huge plays down the stretch. But just in terms of. As a team to watch, they are a fun watch because they bopped the ball around and then defensively, they are just like you're, I almost view it as like a football team that blitzes every time, right? Like sometimes you had these teams where they just blitz every friggin time. And yeah, they might give up 50 points doing this, but it's just total boom or bust because they jump every. everything.

Like between and I saw this stat this morning that they lead the league in deflections. So it's not just my eyes, you know, thinking, good grief,

man. These guys just fly in these passing lanes. They lead the league of deflections. Gary Trent averages the most at four and a half, then Van Vlead at four, then Anadobie at three. That is the first, fourth,

and 12 ranked players in the league in deflections and their second in opponent turnover rate. Now, once you settle in, if your team doesn't turn it over, they're not that hard to score against because the other numbers don't hold up as well. But again, it's like the team that blitzes every time. And a lot of the times, it's going to work out. And they kind of just fly around the court. Because I think that's how you combat being small. Because you are small, right? Especially when you're going to have Van Vleet, Trent, and Noby, you know, playing those three guys together.

You don't have that much size, especially when you're playing Barnes too at four. He's big kid, but, I mean, he's not your traditional, you know, power forward. Down on the blocks guy, right? 280 pounds. That's right. That's right. But they were, they were fun to watch. And thank you, Chris.

It's actually a really good game. What would I tell you, though, about Toronto, Chris? They're a fun team. And they're going to be competitive. They're fun. We talked about it before the season began. There's the amount of length and versatility and youth. Their talent on their roster that's only getting better.

Scardy Barnes continues to excel as a rookie. O.G. Ninobe has gotten even better and better and better. Yeah. I mean, Toronto, they don't necessarily. at the moment have the the guy you know what I'm saying they don't have their kawai the guy who puts them over top for a title but they have all the other pieces you could ask for all right now.

And in fairness, they still don't have see Ackham. Yeah, they don't see Ackham right now. Yeah, right. Who's their highest paid player or is he the highest paid or is Van Vleet now? Van Villeet might overtaken him.

I'm not sure. But certainly he's the guy that's made an all-star game. Yeah. I mean, and with Siak and he played that one game against Brooklyn. or two games now, Brooklyn and the Boston game. So he's played two games now and they're still managing his minutes and everything. I look forward to seeing once he's back fully in the rotation and he's playing every night.

I look forward to seeing how Toronto distributes touches because Scotty Barnes has just been fantastic. Yeah. What do you do with Barg? Yeah. You know, I mean, I wonder, I mean, remember that the Seacom trade rumors is a soft season. I'm not saying that you would trade Seacom. He's young. He's 27 years old.

At the beginning of his contract. good defensive player. You like Siakum. I'm not saying you don't. What I am saying is like, I wonder how that fit will be. And if the fit isn't perfect, maybe Seacom would be better somewhere else

and you're better flipping him for another piece. I don't know, I'm just thinking aloud. Multiple pieces, probably. Yeah, you can get multiple pieces, but he's a really good player, dude.

He has a really good player. He has a really good player. I mean, he had a slow start, but last year, but he was good. He's really good. Yeah.

But I don't know if you're ever going to give him five minutes, you know, extensively, and therefore, how hard is it to get Barnes and him both on the court at the same time? It'll be, it'll be interesting. I don't think it's such a bad thing to have a floor of four or five, six, eight guys, though, that can all switch defensively. That'd be fun to watch. That's fair. With that game, the story was obviously not the game in particular, because people are going to be able to write that off and say, okay, well, Philly didn't have Joel and Bede in their lineup and the game went down to the wire. And so it's not some kind of massive demerit to Philly.

But that is just not the story. The first story is, of course, MB being out for COVID protocol. And I do feel like there's just so much action and so many games, people are not like focused on this as they have been possibly in other sports or as we were in the past. Because we have had guys, big, big name guys going out for COVID so far this season. And Embed's one of the biggest stars in the league. And he's out.

And I guess it's just kind of Joe Ellen Beds out, COVID protocol. It's going to be 10 days at minimum. And that's that. And everybody just kind of goes on with life. It is kind of odd how things have changed so dramatically when, you know, a year. year ago. If we would heard that, we go, oh my God, COVID protocol and who was he in contact with? And what does this mean for the Sixers? And is Joe L&B going to be okay? Yeah. A lot of changed. I was thinking about this the other day. It's been 13 months since the Lakers Heat played in

the finals. Wow. That's like it feels like it's been multiple years, but it also feels like it's just been a couple months. Time is moving simultaneously at lightning speed and also just slugging a along. It's this weird, weird feeling that we have with the, with the time that we're all in in our respective lives here. But, uh, yeah, with the COVID protocols, Chris, yeah, it is strange. Joel and made one of the biggest stars could have won MVP last year had he stayed healthy, uh, is in COVID protocols. And it's not even a peep about any of that. That's just because we know, we know so much more about the virus and all the NBA's protocols are, are working much better now. And people are vaccinated too also. Right. But people aren't also like with

lot of these. Now, maybe they are having, maybe they are doing it and I'm just not paying attention or not, uh, reading every article about them. I just see basically the surface news on, on, on a lot of these. And I'm just like, oh, okay, he's going to be out for a while. Okay. Well, now what are they, what's their schedule coming up and whatever else? You just kind of, it just kind of like this is what's happening and whatever, but it felt like there was a lot more of the what was he vaccinated? Was he vaccinated? How many guys on the team are vaccinated? Who's not vaccinated? You know what I mean? Like, because. there was a big, at the beginning, like 98% or whatever of the league is vaccinated. And then we have

these COVID positive tests. And you do wonder, like, are these all vaccinated individuals that are getting it? And I think that on, on some level, people have just kind of let that go to. Yeah. Oh, I mean, you know, when you get vaccinated, it doesn't stop you from getting the virus. That's right. From dying. That's right. Or getting seriously, you know, you know, affected by it to the point you have to go to the hospital. That's where the vaccine helps, which is why I don't understand why people always bring up COVID cases amongst the vaccinated. You can still get COVID.

And when you're vaccinated, it's like, yes, you can. But the chances of you dying or getting serious illness are severely, severely, you know, minimized from it. So I mean, I think that's, that's probably one of the big reasons why we don't talk about it the same way for vaccinated people or vaccinated players. No, no, I'm saying people don't care as much about the whole. or you juxtapose it through like every morning for a week. And I get it.

He went on TV. Aaron Rogers went on and did his whole bit. But every day it was about players vaccinated, players not vaccinated. Oh yeah. I mean, times change. Well,

like I was watching, I was watching Lamar Jackson last night playing against Miami. And I remember at the beginning of the season, he like, he told everybody. No, he wasn't vaccinated. And everybody just lets it go.

I mean, like it's just odd. I don't see a minute of that. game. It's terrible. Terrible. I know in my fantasy matchup, I'm facing Lamar Jackson and Justin Tucker. I was very happy to see those guys had poor nights. I've got a must win situation, Chris here. Let me tell you. I've suffered rampant injuries across my roster in my, in my pay for Yahoo League. Allow me to allow me to tell you you miss nothing. You miss, you miss nothing. I don't think so. 22 to 10, Miami. The big story with the 76ers.

is not a loss of the Raptors. It is not Joelle and Bede being out for an extended amount of time. It is, there was an advancement in the Ben Simmons mess last night. It's a mess. All right. That's for damn short. It is a mess. As Clutch and Rich Paul come out,

they put out a statement about Ben Simmons. And so this, this has already been a mess. And now it just continues to get messier. And last night, you have the, you have the, You have the representation for Ben Simmons basically calling out the 76ers and saying you're either going to help the guy or you're going to say that he's lying regarding his mental health issues.

So what Shams wrote last night was that the six, not only like is they not helping or they, he said the Sixers recent actions are exacerbating his mental health issues and that the team wants to. deem him fit to force him to play, regardless of what he tells the team's mental health therapist. That's what Rich Paul told Shams Sharania from the athletic that they're exacerbating his mental health issues, Chris. That's what they say is happening by all this public stuff. They're saying they made it worse. Look, I went back because this has all been mental health and the struggles that someone has with that is very real. There are quite a few people that look back and they say, here's a timeline of all of this.

And the reasons in which he did not want to play with the Philadelphia 76ers never included that. That was never, that wasn't one of the reasons given. as to why he was going to be unable to play. So then you get to, he doesn't even want to show up to training camp. Again, it's not because of his mental state of mind. It's because he does not want to play for the 76ers anymore. Even you wrote the article about how he's done with the MB.

It's not a pairing anymore. He doesn't want that anymore. Okay. So then he gets to camp and he's, or aloof and doesn't want to be a part of anything, go through any of the drills and whatever else. And then he, when it's time, now it's time to play. And he's got, oh, I hurt my back.

And there were those that believe that he said, I hurt my back as a reason as to not play. I heard from multiple people connected to the situation at the time it happened. The day it happened that, there were people that believed he was faking it. At the day it happened. So I can't travel. I can't play.

And this is when the findings start. Right. And so now we fast forward. And he, they say, he said, I don't want to play because of my mental health. They say,

well, we'll help you in any way that we can. He says, I'm going to use my own people. They say use our people. You know, that's kind of contingent upon getting the paycheck. And so now this becomes a massive,

massive mess where the kid says he's got mental health issues of which they're not only not helping, but they're making it worse and they keep on, they just want him to play and he's not in the right state of mind to play. And then you have them obviously saying, this guy doesn't want to play. And he's coming up with the reasons as to not want to play. And now this is the most serious of the reasons that he's given. And so that's why Rich Paul saying, then call him a liar. They call him a liar. And now you're in a really tough spot.

I went back to find this out. And just on the mental health front, right? Because I think it's fair to go back and just find out what people were saying. I found an old tweet by Mark Spears. And this is like before the season, okay, during the offseason, Mark Spears on Ben Simmons, quote, his circle keeps telling me that he's in good mental place. That's big. I'm not asking them. They're telling me that unsolicited. Wow. I didn't know that. I didn't know Mark Spears tweeted that out. I mean, it's a long time ago now, but I'm just saying if we're right before the

season he tweeted that. But if we're talking about if we're talking about when did what when did like, when did this come about? How long has this been an issue? I will tell you and maybe he's gone into a a dark place again. Maybe he's having mental, you know, mental health issues right now. But there was at least one point when all this was going on, when Ben Simmons camp was telling Mark Spears now again, is that so they can get a trade going, is that for whatever reason?

But that was out there. He said he is in a good place mentally. That's big. And his circle, in fact, I am going to just so. He said I'm not asking them about it either. He says they're telling me that unsolicited. So that's eight weeks ago. That's what Spears said.

Yeah, wow. I did not know that he said that. So he said that on the Hoop Collective podcast. That's where Spears said that. I don't know. Wait a minute. What pod was that? That was the John Krasinski part.

That was on our buddy John's podcast. Hmm. His Timberwolf show. Yep. So he said that on that podcast. So on John's show, Mark Spears said that. I didn't know that. I mean, look, mental health is incredibly difficult to discuss.

I mean, we don't know what Ben's going through. It's possible. This is the first card that Clutch has pulled that is honest. It's possible. It's possible. This is the first honest card. It's something that they didn't want to discuss as the reason. That's possible.

But I think it's also reasonable and fair to look. at it from Philly's perspective and say, I mean, we have a ton of people in our organization that believe like you're faking your injury to get out of practicing. Like a lot of people believe that there. And so, you know, there's a level of distrust with what you're being told. So here's the level, the level of distrust is. And look, again, sensitive topic. But for four months, this was never the reason he was not playing for Philly. For four months, it was never the reason given. It was never the reason given. And eight weeks ago,

his camp told Mark Spears unsolicited he is in a great mental place. Yeah. So, I mean, all the way until we've had four months, if at the very beginning of all of this, he would have said,

I am not in the right headspace to play NBA basketball. People are understanding. Have you seen one criticism or one, anybody saying anything about Calvin Ridley walking away from the Falcons? Not one, because he was open and honest about it right away, right away. Not one. Not one, especially in this day and age, people are much more compassionate. Definitely. Regarding real issues.

But when for four months, that's never what was said eight weeks ago, the opposite, the literally the complete opposite was said. And then once you got to camp, there's been three different reasons given as for why you can't compete and why you can't play, none of which were mental health. And now as this comes about, you say, they just want me to play.

They're not helping me. And it is, of course, people are going to roll their eyes. Because again, at the beginning, If you say, hey, man, this is what's going on. Here's the issue. And here's why Ben's not playing for the 76ers. It wouldn't even be a thing. People now are, they're not, they're not lining up to criticize guys that are in the wrong headspace and got to deal with some stuff.

I just gave you the Calvin Ridley example. Sure. There's, there's other guys, too, that have done it. I want to read the quote from Rich Paul. within the article by Shams. Rich Paul said, this is no longer about a trade. This is about finding a place

where we can help Ben get back to his mental strength and get back on the floor. I want him on the floor playing the game that he loves. I want Ben on the floor, whether that's in a Sixers uniform or any other uniform.

That's not up to me, but I want him in a state where he can resume play. And then Shams followed up reporting Sixers officials say they were pleased to hear Paul state he is open to Simmons staying in Philadelphia and so on and so forth.

but yeah I mean it's just it's very it's very interesting how clutch came out so forward about this through their guy and charania um from like a strategic perspective I'm just intrigued why they did this I don't think either side has as has I think they both contributed to the mess that this has become it's a big time mess no it's a public negotiation between between the agency and the team. That's what it is. It's egos now. Are you sure?

And that, yes, it's egos now. That ego is why you go on the radio and say this could take four or five years. That's ego. Just say four or five years before this gets resolved. That's what Daryl said. Yeah, publicly. Yeah, that's ego. Come on.

And then the other side, Rich Paul, this is ego. It's just saying I, because they, I went back and I went back. and looked at the entire timeline of all of this, going all the way back to the use of stuff. And even after the season, there was an article about Rich Paul with the Sixers about, met with them about whether it made sense for them to work together to find a trade before next season.

Right. And of course, they agreed that it's probably best. And that they were going to be talking ahead of the draft. They were going to be talking ahead of free agency. and then, you know, the Sixers, by all reports, they say, no, no, no, no, no. We want to keep Ben here. And then, of course, it ends in the summer with him saying, I'm not playing there anymore.

And so at one point there was communication and they were going to just try to find him a different landing spot. And then I found, I mean, I can't tell you how many different articles about trades, rumored trades, or reporting that was done by all manner of different NBA reporters about the 76ers and what Daryl Morey wanted for Ben Simmons. A Hardin-esque package was one of the terms that was used many, many times, including by Adrian Worgianowski, a star player, a difference maker is what he has said, you know, not doing this for role players. And then there were all manner of reported traits.

So there were all kinds of rejected trades. But they were all like, and a lot of them were reported as Philly offered Simmons 4. And then it would and then it would follow with this outrageous return. Like the McCollum and six picks. Yeah. Or here's one. The Raptors reportedly turned down an offer with Fred Van Vleet, Ogen, and Obie, and the number four pick. The Warriors, the reporters reportedly rejected an offer.

for Andrew Wiggins, James Wiseman, the seventh pick, the 14th pick, and two additional first rounders. Here's one I found from you. Kevin O'Connor says the 76ers wanted a haul from the Spurs that included the Spurs sending Philadelphia, one of their young core players, and much more. There's so much stuff floating around right now about the Sixers having outrageous demands, like wanting four first round draft picks and three pick swaps and a young player from the Spurs. All these deals you hear about are outrageous. Nobody's doing that for Ben Simmons.

This is your quote. Yep, you're right. Right. Okay. And so a myriad of stories about how Darryl Morey was calling people making outrageous offers, thinking he was going to get some kind of crazy return for Ben Simmons. And my point is the way this, this didn't have to be this way. and I'm not saying that you have to take a bad deal,

but to me, if you read all those stories in succession, it adds up to badly overplaying your hand. What you thought you had as an asset is not what you had as an asset. And to me, that asset now continues to go down day by day, by day, by day. I don't think that's true, Chris. asset the value of Ben Simmons has not gone down. It was never high because teams have low balled throughout. I mean, Daryl Morey, the reason why he's asking for this outrageous stuff in return for Ben Simmons is because he's just biting his time. He's just waiting.

He's waiting for December 15th. He's waiting for this season to develop when more players will be eligible to be traded. He's waiting for a team to, you know, disappoint and want to make a panic move. And instead of offering, you know, player A and player B, B that they would be willing to give player A and player B and draft picks X, Y, and Z. Like he's waiting for those offers to get better when teams get desperate or more players are eligible to be traded or for the ultimate dream for Damian Liller to say, I want out of Portland or some star player to say I want out. That opportunity might not be there, but he's waiting for a chance to find a hardened style

trade where he's giving Ben Simmons and five first round picks instead of giving Ben Simmons up for multiple players and getting picks. He's the guy who wants to add more picks on. And he's just waiting and biting his time. He's really like these offers. If somebody's going to take it, somebody, he'll do the deal. But that, that's why he's waiting here. He's just waiting for the right moment. I don't think offers are going to get worse. Like that Brogden-Levert thing that was reported around Indiana, if they still want to do that in December, January, February, like, that's not going to get worse. It's not going to suddenly just become Malcolm Brogden. They've already, well, there is updating reporting on that saying Brogden's off the table now.

It could be. I mean, he did sign his extension, right? So I don't believe he's even eligible to be traded. Yeah. So that he's off the table now. Yeah, I mean, I guess, I guess that's not a good example on my end then. But yeah, Brogden's not eligible to be traded. Yeah.

So, I mean, I just, how, you tell me how the, how the, how is the value of Ben Simmons not going down? Because it wasn't up in the first place. It wasn't up to a point that was acceptable. acceptable. You don't, you don't think that this has made it worse? No, it has all of this mess. It hasn't, Chris. What? It hasn't. Who would trade for him? A team that wants a six foot 10 highly versatile defensive player who's an elite playmaker who can score at the rim and in a different role could be even better than he wasn't Philadelphia. Like, why wouldn't you want to trade for Ben Simmons despite all this bullshit that's happening right? Well, that's, you buried the lead. You buried the league. If we're talking strictly. You said, you said, am I talking to Daryl or am I talking to Kevin O'Gonar? If we're talking, if we're talking strictly about the player, I mean, look, dude, there's, I don't

necessarily think all the stuff Clutch is doing is going to change the fact that a team would want to add a 25 year old star. I just, I just don't. I don't think teams care that much. Okay. If you're getting the player, then why were the offers never good? Because that's all the circle. Because that's when negotiations are, dude.

You start low. You start low. People perceive Philadelphia as the team that was in a position where they had to make a decision and they had to make a trade. So if you're one of the 29 other teams, let me finish. If you're one of the 29 other teams, why would you offer three first round draft picks and another young guy in addition to like the core pieces that you're offering for Ben Simmons when you feel like this team is against the wall and they have to make a move? That would be stupid for the 29 other teams for Philadelphia. It'll be stupid for them to take that deal, which if they took Brogden and Lavert the soft season, that would not have been a good deal for Philadelphia, considering the fact

they could wait and get more or the possibility of Dame saying, you know what? I do want to leave Portland. That's just the mere possibility, the mere possibility of Daryl Morey being able to trade for Damien Lillard is worth all of this crap that's happening. It's worth all of it. Damien Lillard. It's worth it. It's worth it. He'll be lucky to get Bobo McGee back in a deal at this point.

If I accept what you say, which is, all right. That's not true. They were up against the wall. There's 29 other teams that think that they have to make a deal, right? And so that's why the offers were that good. What the hell has changed except for that's gotten worse? Why on earth would anybody? What changes?

Everything else. Everything else changes. What do you mean? 20 the 29 other teams change like what i'm saying is more players become eligible to be traded because of the contract the cba doesn't allow certain players to be dealt out if they require the softs until till December 15th what changes is teams get desperate Minnesota is three and seven and they're instead of saying oh we're not going to give you multiple first round picks in addition to these players then they say you know what we do need to get into that playing tournament we have to make a

move now we're going to give you this this this this this and this instead of just two of those pieces. That's what changes. Everything else for the sixers. But life is leverage. Who is who are you who are you bargaining against? Like the idea that there's going to be some high demand for Ben Simmons is crazy to me.

There might not be Chris. You know what? But I don't think the deal that they get in January is necessarily going to be any worse than what they could have gotten during the off season. It could be. It could be even I would I would say this, Chris. I'm just curious about your thoughts on this. I would say even if Philadelphia takes a slightly worse offer in January or February, it was worth the weight.

And the reason why I'm saying that is because, again, the chance of a star becoming available outweighs just settling during the off season. The chance of a team getting desperate and giving more than they should despite not bidding against anybody else is worth the weight. That's my perspective. Okay. And I told you this. do this last night. To me, they had a house that was worth a million dollars. They wanted $1.2 million for it.

And then somebody came to them and they said, all right, I'll give you $800,000, $900,000 for it. And they said, nope, not doing that. I want my $1.2. And then they went around and telling everybody, hey, if you give me $1.2, I'll give you this.

If you want to give me $1.2, I'll give you this. And then the market tank and all of a sudden it's now $600,000. thousand dollars. It's just not true. And that's what you can get. It's not true. The house is on sale for a million and they got offered a quarter million. That's not true. Nobody, look, by your own admission, they were running around with outrageous demand. Yes, because they're getting such shit offers. No, they're getting low offers. They're asking for a lot. Eventually they want to meet

somewhere in the middle. And maybe they won't. Maybe all they're going to get is these garbage offers and they're going to have to end up settling for less. They're not garbage. They're not garbage offers when you're talking about. For Ben Simmons, for what he can be as a player, for his youth and the fact that he signed long term and his importance to the team, yes, I think Daryl Morey has played it great. And I know we disagree on that, Chris, because of how messy it's gotten publicly. You want to go back and look at what I said.

I said to you months ago that this is going to get ugly. It's gotten ugly. It has gotten ugly. I said at the time it's going to get ugly and it's going to be worth it. It's worth it for the upside. They might not get the upside. It might not happen. It might not.

Also, the other upside is Ben Simmons returning and him being a productive player. And guess what? That one can probably be crossed off. That one can probably be crossed off, Chris. All I'm saying is. that the upside is worth it for all the ugliness from the Philadelphia 76th perspective. There are so many franchises that would have folded and traded for him,

traded him for an offer that made them worse. So many teams would have done that. So many teams would have done it. I love this. Daryl hasn't given in. Daryl hasn't given in. It's not just Daryl. It's the Sixers organization.

If anything, if anything, it's ownership more than anything. He's been trying to trade the guy for a freaking year. Yeah, because he wanted to get James Harden. given in. He hasn't given in. He tried. He was trying. They literally went to Ben Simmons and told him prepare to go to Houston. Yeah, because that was James Harder. An MVP candidate that would

have made them better. And it wasn't just Ben Simmons. It was Simmons and pick swaps and Picks and Tire, and Matty style. But I mean, that was like the first order of business was I was move, uh, Ben Simmons trade. And then his name was in trades for like the whole year. and then his name was in trades in the off season. And now it's like, oh, good on Daryl Morey for not giving in. Giving in. He's trying to trade this summer pitch for a year. Yes.

He's trying to train her. He's trying to train him for something better, Chris. Giving in. Giving in. All right. Like, can we, can we talk basketball for a minute? We're talking in circles here. Can we talk?

I want to talk basketball for a second. Okay. All right. So let's let's say Damien Lord never becomes available. and and he needs to he needs to either keep Ben Simmons through four years saying I'm going to keep you through the deadline even if you don't come back

or let's say there's offers on the table. What I'm getting to is this. Tyrese maxi last night, 33 points. It's not his first time having a great game so far this season for Philadelphia. He's averaging 17 points. He's shooting 38% from three. Finally, his touch from the free throw line

since high school, his touch from floater range, runner range since high school is translating to three-point success. Tyrese Maxie in his second year is looking significantly better than he did as a rookie. Seth Curry has been outstanding for Philadelphia. He's having the best season of his career. They've unleashed him, averaging 17 points, shooting 48% from three. They've just been great. If you're Philadelphia, I wonder, let's say you do trade Ben Simmons for the type of offer you're talking about. You know, you're just taking something to add to your team instead of having a wasted player and Ben Simmons. I don't think like a Malcolm Brogden, Lavert and a pick deal would have, you know,

is I am like. Well, what I'm saying though is this like your bat court suddenly isn't looking bad with Maxie and Curry performing the way our never mind fur can cork maz coming off the bench as a wing. He's been really, really dynamite for Philadelphia. So what I'm getting at is what it, what would you trade Ben Simmons for? I mean, I think it's a wing. I'd want a wing because their guards are looking pretty good right now. Wing who can shoot. Yeah, more shooting. Yes. I mean, the whole philosophy, I think,

much like we saw with Janice last year, is when you've got a player like Mb, and they're doing this with great perimeter players too, right? You're trying to surround Luca Dantzic with guys that can knock down shots. You're trying to surround all manner of guys that could get it to the lane, with guys that they could kick out to and knock down shots.

And now with Mbid being more of a facilitator, yeah, I mean, I think you can never have enough. shooting, guys that can knock down shots. And so I would also try to pair him with the best possible perimeter player I could. And so maybe that ends up being C.J. McCollum. Maybe that ends up being Buddy Healed. Maybe it ends up being a Malcolm Brogden type player.

Maybe it ends up being, you know, there's all manner of guys that are out there that I think are, they're not, it's not a hardened-esque return. it's not some kind of amazing, you know, future star or current star, maybe, but really out, really good players. So I get a deal. I get a deal for you, Chris. I got a deal. Okay. Okay.

So I was texting with my Sixers fan friend Matt Quinn, lead singer and writer of the band Mount Joy. Excellent. Just released a great new live album, live at Red Rocks. It's fantastic, Chris. But anyway, so Matt and I were texting last. week and we're talking Ben Simmons. And, you know, this is talking about like what Philly wants versus what other teams are

offering. This is what a Sixers fan would be willing to accept. He said he wants the Kings package of their reasonable pieces. Harrison Barnes and Buddy healed with like two picks for Ben Simmons and Danny Green. A package like that sort of touches on what you're talking about. What do you get Bagley too? You can get him. I said you'd get bagley too.

They'd get bag to. They'd throw that in. Trust me. Yeah, they'll throw him in. But like whether it's that, those players names or a similar type of package, something like that makes sense to me. You get a shooter in healed. Well, a shooter in Barnes too.

He's like 40% from three the last four or five, six years now. A wing defender in Barnes. That's, that's appealing. Like if you could get a barn. healed plus multiple picks package. That to me is. But those guys have no value to. I know. You know what I'm saying? And that and that's why they were training him for Kyle Cousman, KCP. I mean, they don't care about that. Yeah, they don't care about healed. You know what I'm saying? He's their fourth guy. Yeah. If you're if you're, if you're, if you're, if you're,

if you're, if you're trading Ben Simmons now for a guy that was about to get traded for Kyle Kuzma. Yeah. I mean, I mean, I. to an extent I agree with you, Chris, but the player is only as valuable as he is to you. And like the value of the player, like it's like I talked about fantasy football earlier. If you have, you know, five wide receivers for two starting spots in your flex, but you need a back. I mean, even though that fifth wide receiver might be the second wide receiver on the other team, uh, it shouldn't change the fact for the other team that what that player means to you. You know what I'm saying?

like what it means to you is really all that matters than what it does to the other team. But with that said, what you're saying is again to the point of why Philly wants to wait for something better. If you yourself believe that that deal is something you're going to swallow your pride to accept and it's not necessarily the best thing to do, well, in that case, that's why Philadelphia wants to wait for something better, for something better than that. And until that, it might not come. They might have to swallow their pride. that's where we break ways. Because I look at it and I say, there was once upon a time

where you probably could have gotten like Malcolm Brogden, Lavert and a first rounder. And now even that kind of stuff's off the table. Nobody wants to deal with this. I'm not sure. I'm not sure I'd rather Brogden and Lever. I'm just saying nobody wants.

The point is people don't want to deal with this crap. I mean, it's a mess. It's a mess. I think your amount of teams that were at one point possibly interested, I think has gone down. Cleveland has played good now. They were one of the teams.

Well, that could be one of the reasons why they would want to do it. Golden States played really well now. They were one of the teams. Can we talking about Golden State for a second? Yeah. You see the way we're using Gary Payton? Yeah. Imagine Ben Simmons in the Gary Peyton role.

Imagine that. Just imagine Ben Simmons doing what Gary Peyton's doing. He's screening and rolling and cutting, bringing the ball up the floor, playing with the, defensive energy. Imagine that guy being like a foot taller. That'd be scary. If you put Ben Simmons into the Golden State Warrior system, that would be terrifying. Unfortunately, I think the best thing, the best asset you could probably get from them is Wiseman, which you don't need. That's the problem. Yeah. I mean, the, the goal in state trade package is very challenging.

Because their, their package would be built around youth, comminga, Moody, Wiseman, you know, some combination of their young guys and future picks. But Darry, himself has said, I want a proven player. I want somebody who helps us win a championship today. We're not going to do anything that lowers our title odds. I mean, well, in that player, you would have to include Wiggins just to make the salaries. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

Yeah. And I don't even know for Golden State. I say plug Simmons into the Gary Peyton role. They look pretty good with Gary Payton coming off their bench. I'm not sure it would make sense to give multiple young guys and Wiggins, who's very important to that team. Not to mention, what was your frigging luxury tax bill be? Yeah.

No kidding. It'd be pretty rough. A couple other things that we do need to mention. A couple of teams that have had a little mini dramas this week. You had Tom Tivode bench all of his starters for the fourth quarter of the other night. And then after the game, say, you know what they say? When it's 10 games, they say you need 20. When you say 20, they say you need 30.

At 30, they say you need 40. And before you know it, the season's over. It's just a bunch of bullshit. And that's when he was asked if these guys just need to come together. That's what he said. And then here's the numbers. What's indisputable is that New York's starting lineup is not working. Walker, Fornier, Barrett, Randall, Mitchell Robinson is played more minutes than any other five-man unit in the NBA.

and they've been outscored by 14 points per 100 possessions and has a defensive rating. So this has to be making Tibbs insane. Of 119, that is seven points worse than the worst ranked team on defense this season. And what's so strange, Kevin, their second unit, their all bench lineup has outscored their opponents by 20 points per 100 possessions. And that's Rose Quickly, Berks. topping Todge.

So they added these guys at the offseason, but I guess it's like surprise, surprise, as much as Tibbs can bring defensive philosophy to New York and that toughness, you, uh, in the end, it's Kimball Walker and Evan Fornia is a back court.

You're not stopping people. The Knicks have the 26th defensive earning in the NBA right now. They're 26th. Well, look at their back court. Yeah. You and my, you and me might get a couple buckets. I don't think so.

Nah, maybe not. I don't think so. Maybe not. Maybe not. You couldn't post up Kimball Walker? I don't, I don't think so.

Come on. You can at least get one post up. Maybe a hook. I'm not scoring once. Maybe a hook shot? I'm not scoring once. I did, I did many years ago against Greg Stizma.

Remember him? Greg Steemsma? Remember him? Yeah. He, I went on the court after the, the game, a Celtics game, many years ago, like in 2011, 2012, something like that. And me and my friend shot around and I scored on Steamsma.

Nice. Hit a little hook shot on the baseline. Pumped my fist afterwards. I felt so good about it. I was like, I scored on Greg Steamsma. And then he immediately retired? I mean, I hope he did right after that. Actually, no, I just looked up his stats.

This is his rookie season. So this was the 2011-12 season, his only year in Boston. And then he played in Minnesota, despite me scoring on him. He played in New Orleans despite me scoring on him. And he played in Toronto despite me scoring on him. So he played three more years in the NBA, Chris, despite the embarrassment he felt me scoring on him. Greg Steve.

Hey, what if I show up to Tuesday show with the Steve's majority? Oh my God. I don't know. They got to print those out for you. What team, what team you get in, Chris? Boston, Minnesota, New Orleans, or Toronto. When I think of Greg Steensma, I, well, honestly, I don't think of anything, but I think it'd have to be Boston simply to commemorate your, your bucket.

Yeah. Thank you. And the other, the other one is the debacle. And also Tommy Hineson comparing Craig's teams, but a Bill Russell once. He compared him to Bill Russell. He really did. Not, not the Bill Russell that played for the Celtics. Yeah. The quote from Tommy Hineson was, this kid has got the same timing as Russell.

He gets out there. He cuts them off and makes them commit. And then he has the quickness to get it before and just before the ball is totally released. Oh, my goodness. Oh, my goodness. I love, I grew up listening to Tommy Hineson, rest in peace to him.

Rest and peace, Tommy Hineson. Tommy Hineson is one of the reasons why I love the game of basketball. Mike Gorman, too. That's Celtics announcing crew. I know people who listen to them over the years on league pass, say how biased they are. Oh, no, I love it. I mean, they're, forget about their bias.

Put that aside for one second. Let's talk about their love for the game. The homer. They love, they love basketball, man. And they, yeah, I'm so fortunate to have grown up listening to those guys call Celtics games. That is for, that's for sure. I miss him being on those broadcasts. I used to love the Tommy points and listen to that.

I miss. I miss Tom, Mike and Tommy. I really do. I love that. Kevin, it is always a pleasure. Everybody have a great weekend. Thank you to our producer. Erica Sivantes filling in today, and we will talk to you next week.

Can't wait. Have a good weekend, everybody.