The Mismatch - Boston’s Big Blunder, Mavs-Thunder Takeaways, Jokic’s Legacy, and More NBA Playoff Analysis

Episode Date: May 10, 2024

Verno and KOC discuss PJ Washington’s performance in the Mavs' Game 2 win over the Thunder to tie the series (01:13). They also discuss Kyrie Irving’s impact, the Mavs defense, as well as Josh Giddey becoming close to unplayable. They then move on to the Cavs, who tied their series with the Celtics after the getting the best version of Evan Mobley, and also discuss why the Jayson Tatum-Jaylen Brown era Celtics have been extremely inconsistent in the playoffs (20:34). Next, the guys discuss their excitement for the pair of Game 3s between Knicks-Pacers and Nuggets-Timberwolves (41:37). Can the Knicks continue to play at this fast pace? How will Nikola Jokic respond after winning his third MVP? Got a question for Verno and KOC? Send them an email at [e-mail]! Or you can send the guys a tweet @ChrisVernonShow and @KevinOConnorNBA! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, it's Bill Simmons. I wanted to tell you about the launch of our new YouTube channel. It's called Ringer Movies. You can follow us right now on YouTube at Ringer Movies to get full video episodes of the rewatchables and the big picture. Plus, a lot of our archives with much more coming soon. To celebrate the launch, we're going live on Monday, May 13th at noon Pacific with our first ever live rewatchables with me and Sean Fennessee and Chris Ryan and Van Lathen. Follow Ringer Movies on YouTube. don't miss at YouTube.com slash ringer movies.

Welcome to The Mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon and Jordan meets he does every Thursday night from the ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, A.Kee, Kavanaugh, Kevin O'Connor, Kevin O'Brien, Berna, your voice cracked. It's playoff time. How are you? Well, I'm feeling sorry for you. Why is that? It just would have been so much better for you to get to do this podcast after game one.

But instead, you're having to do it after game two of the Oklahoma City Dallas series that just saw Dallas even up the score in the series with a 119 to 110 win. You're really feeling yourself on whatever night that was. Chris, can I feel myself in another way? How many years now have I been just beating the drum of PJ Warren? Washington. Come on, acquire him, contenders. What are you doing? Sign them last summer. Trade for him ahead of the deadline last year. Trade for him this year. And then Dallas does that, and he has the game of his life tonight. 11 of 18 from the field, 11 rebounds, 29 points, defending everywhere, beating switches inside. PJ Washington was awesome. I could beat that drum

tonight. The thunder side of things, I beat that on the draft show on with Rob Mahoney on Tuesday night. We can talk about them losing tonight. Do you want to know what was so ironic about PJ Washington's game tonight is that it gave you flashbacks to Grant Williams against the bucks? Right? When we always think about the other guys that it's like this. Really? You got those, your brain went to those flashbacks and Grant Williams. He was the last thing on my mind tonight.

Really? Yeah. You're thinking because the hot three point shooting. That's why. Right. When the last name, sharing a last name? Well, they don't share a last name. But when on earth. Oh, sharing the W, sorry. I mean, like, what else? They don't play alike. It is a power forward, one of which was on that team earlier this year. And they both had, what the hell? I can't believe that guy hit that.

three's performances. That's how. That's how it was very reminiscent of when Grant Williams came in and knocked down seven threes. It was like swing, swing, oh my God, if this guy's going to make seven threes, you're in trouble. Well, one of the reasons why I was so high on him entering last offseason is because of one of the games he had against Oklahoma City.

That season, he had a career high, 43 points in the game on five, three-pointers against Oklahoma City when he was still playing with Charlotte. And that was in Oklahoma as well. So with PJ Washington, he's had some performances when he's playing on bad teams or he just gets scorching hot from three or scorching hot with pull-up mid-rangers. And with him, like the scoring is the cherry on top. It's everything else that you have him for with his versatility, the like creation out of a short roll, the finishing at the range.

him. But when he catches fire, like he did tonight, that's where he can swing a game for you on top of the stability that he can provide with his kind of foundational skill set. So in some ways, I know it's surprising when he hasn't shot the ball well at all pretty much since getting acquired by Dallas. He's near 30% from three. He's not shot the ball well from the free throw line either for that matter. But he has a long history when he was with Charlotte of having just out of nowhere, huge scoring performance. I got you, but I mean, I think if you're Oklahoma City, you were playing for, like, that's, that's who you want taking those shots. A la Grant Williams, a la Rui Hachamura, a la, you remember last year, Lonnie Walker in a game.

It's like, the game plan is for these other guys, you know, if we're picking our poisons, if it's swing, swing, and he's going to make the shots. And him and Hardaway Jr., both. We always talk about the other guys and who's going to step up, because. Because, you know, Kyrie Irving did not do much tonight from a scoring perspective. Luca had big numbers in the end, but was laboring. And 16 of his 29 came in the first quarter of that game. Obviously, made some big plays late. And then you had this rotating cast of Biggs, mostly Gafford.

He was at least able to come back in the game. But he's got this bum hand. and then, like, Lively and Jones Jr. are missing, like, everything they take at the rim, except for, like, a dunk. And, I mean, like, the Lively thing was just crazy. It was like, bro, can this guy not score? How many bunnies do they miss at the rim? It was unbelievable.

And he had a size advantage, like a big size advantage on many of them. Lively puts a lid on the rim, but it's usually on defense. I know. Offense. Yeah, it was certainly on offense. But the huge contributions from Tim Hardaway and obviously PJ Washington, when we always talk about the other guys and who's going to step up. I thought it was fascinating.

The other day, my son had a half day at school. And so he had gone over to my mom's house where I had to pick him up in the afternoon. And when I got to my mom's house, he had not stayed up for game one. So he had it on in the living room when I walked. in, which made me proud. He was watching. He was catching up with it. I sat down on the couch and he knew what ends up happening in the game, but it was crazy. And I wrote this down tonight. So in game one, as we were watching it, there's like six, six and a half minutes left in the third quarter. It's a two-point game. It's 69 to 67 in game one. And,

then of course the quarter ends the way it does with Oklahoma City starting this run they're up by 10 at the end of third quarter and I'll be damn the same exact thing happened tonight except it was completely reversed I was like oh are they going to do this again so I when I went down the point was when I sat down and was watching game one back I'm like man this is late in the game I mean I know they got their ass kick they lost by 30 in this game like what? This was a two-point game with six minutes to go in the third. And then tonight, 8079 with five minutes left in the third. It's a one-point game. And then you had that barrage. Hardaway Jr. gets filed twice on threes. PJ Washington hits a big one. There's a Kai Re-shot

involved there. And just a bunch of stops and runouts, stops and runouts. And they scored 19 points in the last five minutes of that quarter. And then obviously the 10-point lead was enough to be able to hold on to it in the fourth. They were impressive, man. They were, I mean, Dallas's defense was outstanding tonight. I mean, they were locked in, they were rotating well. They were staying down.

They weren't jumping at pump fakes or little pivots and, you know, the SGA does and all that. They didn't file. They put fundamental disciplined basketball. And I felt like the tone was set at the top. Kyrie Irving may have only had nine points in the game, but he had 11 assists, he had two blocks, two steals, he set a tone on defense, he was locked in from start to finish,

off ball, on ball. He looked like a prepared, ready guy who was game planning to pounce in certain moments. Like there was one play, Chet Honger and took the ball up the floor. And like as soon as like the ball kind of like reached his hand while he was dribbling, and Kyrie pounced like a snake, like just and just completely ripped the ball away. I got one of his two points in transition with a nice layup off the glass. And it was like, this is a guy who game planned for that moment to be ready for Chet, kind of like a slight, lackadaisical moment when he's handling the ball,

seven-footer getting the offense in, and he was ready for it. I felt like Kyrie the entire night was like that on-ball, off-ball, both on offense and defense. He was awesome despite not scoring. Gibby Brown even mentioned that it was, he's like, he's done this at least four times on the pokeaways from like Jalen Williams, where he was, he would get beat off the dribble, but then he'd slap it away. And then in the most crucial part, I'm glad you highlighted Kyrie, most crucial part of the game,

the last gas for Oklahoma City, he locks down SGA, and then they go down on the other end, miss a shot. He grabs the offensive rebound, which basically seal. the game. Like, Kyrie was making all the plays outside of scoring tonight. I mean, really, really good all around. It reminded me of the finals, the Cavaliers won with Kyrie. That year, he was a two-way beast. He was locking in on defense. I remember David Griffin, their GM at the time at the Sloan conference was raving about Kyrie. He's like, we need to get that version of Kyrie all the time. I always tell him he can be one of the best two-way players in the

league every night. And boom, well, that's what Dallas. is getting right now. One of the best two-way players in the league because when he's playing like that on defense, he has proven for years now going back to Cleveland that he can be that. Well, and that old adage of, you know, I can look at the, you know, Greg Popovich famously said, you could give me the box score, I could look at the three-point totals and I can tell you who won the game, right? You know, making a mockery of the way the NBA is now. But this was a hot shooting three-point night for Dallas, and this was not a good three-point shooting. for Oklahoma City.

Now, you can... You want to know the record this year, Chris? I looked it up tonight during the games because it happened in both games tonight where, you know, Dallas got, they outshot Oklahoma City and Cleveland outshot Boston from three. In the playoffs, so far,

51 games have been played. 41 teams have won when they have a higher three-point percentage. Wow. Teams have won when they, only 10 times, with a lower three point percentage. Of all the games that have been played.

41 and 10. That's a 67 win pace. Craig Popovich was right. All you're going to do is shoot a higher percentage from three. If you shoot a higher percentage from three in the playoffs, you are 41 and 10 this year. Well, and what you're seeing now is these, and you saw it in both games,

especially with the adjustment that teams made from teams that were able to make threes in the first one, which was we are going to close out. so fast on all of these that we're going to make you make the decision to drive past us. And we're fine with that because now we can get active hands. We can tap the ball away. But we're not allowing you. We're going to keep running you off that line, running you off that line to the point

where you can then allow the star player to really go off. And that's, SGA was amazing tonight, right? His game's not predicated on that. But all of the guys that he sets up by getting the paint touches, the drive and kick, drive and kick, drive and slash, all this kind of stuff, like you're seeing these teams get much more aggressive and be much higher. Cleveland was much higher in terms of where they were picking guys up. And you also saw it with Dallas to where even their bigs were going to go out there and they were going to contest. and so you didn't see that level of comfortability. Whereas on the other hand, you saw more open looks.

But I think it was, I don't think that that was, to me, that's by design. It's like, all right, we're willing to give that up. If there is something we are giving up, if PJ Washington hits seven threes, then we've got to tip our cap. And if Tim Hardaway Jr. is going to get 10 points in one minute, then we got to tip our cap. but like obviously our focus is going to be on Luca and Kyrie and the things that they want to do. And so it's going to be interesting to see this is this is going to be a very, very good series for sure. And I'll be interested to see how Oklahoma City adjust.

I wouldn't be surprised if they just go back out and say, bro, if PJ Washington is going to shoot fireballs from three, then we have to live with it. Well, the flip side of this for OKC, you're seeing what Dallas is doing to Josh Giddy. Oklahoma City may need to bench Josh Ging. He's unplayable. They may have to. In game two, he's a minus 20 and 11 minutes. And game one, he's the only rotation player on OKC that had a minus in the game. Despite playing only 17 minutes, he's getting completely outplayed by Isaiah Joe,

Jason Wallace, Aaron Wiggins. Those guys are playing more minutes. they look more effective. The offense runs better without Giddy. For all the youth that OKC has, I know Chet didn't have a great game too, but Giddy's the only one who looks overmatched, skill-wise, physically wise,

and I think Dagnol, we're seeing him go from 17 minutes in game one, 11 minutes in game two. It would not shock me one bit if he's just completely benched moving forward in the series. Well, he didn't even bring him in the second half until late. I mean, like you were pretty deep into the second half before he even stepped on the floor.

And I think you're right. There's just not really a place for him in this series. And I think it was even more start when you get into those half court sets. You know, both of these teams are so contingent on their defense, really fueling their offense. Because then they can get stops and they can get out in space and they're both very dangerous. And one of the things that I liked about Dallas is I thought that they would be able to control tempo. These scores are still getting, and there's enough shots going up that I don't think it is vastly in their favor. I thought they would drag it more into the mud.

But you want to make Oklahoma City play as much half-court basketball as possible. And if that is so, and they are having to play that much half-court basketball, to your point, Giddy is useless. He's useless. Nobody's even guarding. Like, what does it matter? Fine, stand out there. like especially because he's giddy is the kind of guy

that could create things but he has to as the ball in his hands. Like the non-shooting guy has to be able to have the ball in his hand so now he's a driving kicker. It's the Ben Simmons problem. Right. He's not going to have the ball in his hands. We're taking the ball

to SGA. Jalen Williams for that matter or even chat. Right. It is very Ben Simmonsy because he does all that. He does everything else really well. Even though Giddy has you know, in the regular season, it's different to have shooting success in the regular season than it is in the playoffs with the pressure, with the defense, the harder closeouts, everything combined together. It's harder to shoot in the playoffs. I promise you, there's nothing more

than for Jason Kiddney to shoot ball, shoot it. Oh, for sure. Shoot as much as, hey, please, shoot it 30 times if you want. That's fine. Because everybody else on their roster shoots 45% from three, it seems like. But I do think that's what we're going to see, not doing the OKC side. As Giddy goes down from maybe 11 minutes to zero minutes or maybe one rotation, five minutes. I think it's Wiggins spot.

He was the one that impressed me the most. Wiggins is great. He's such a good role player. I mean, OKC fans know how good he's been all year long. Two-way guy. I mean, Isaiah Joe provides the knockdown shooting and Wallace provides the defense, but Wiggins is like that a little bit of both. I like those

guys coming off the bench. I do too. I agree with you. I like both of I just like the energy off the bench, but Wiggins to me is the guy, whether he's starting or just playing more minutes. Wiggins is the right guy to be replacing Giddy for the most part with those minutes. Well, and he has started Isaiah Joe in the past for the spacing.

When you get to this point, it's all about spacing, and the more spacing you could create for SGA, who was, by the way, absolutely brilliant. Yeah. He was great. Just, you know, this is the ebb and flow of a series. You know, when you've got teams that are, worth their salt. And I told you at the beginning of this, like when one gets waxed in game one,

more often than not, you see them make some real adjustments and come back in game two. And now it starts. Now you've kind of seen each other. And now we're going to see who's got the goods to be able to make those adjustments. We're talking about what Dagnol's going to do. And then the challenge is going to be for Jason Kidd. How does he adjust to the next time? around. And it is such a weird deal that Jason Kidd never wins game one and then always wins game two. What they say is 0 and 5, but three of the last four, he's now won game two. Yeah. It's like he just, it's like game one is just, okay, let's see what you guys want to do, game. And a lot of those, they've gotten run out in game ones. You know, Clippers ran them out

and obviously Oklahoma City ran them out. But then game two, they responded in both of them. So you figure it out. I don't know. And then it's going to settle in. This is going to be a long series. This is going to be a long series. I didn't walk away from tonight's game thinking,

oh, Dallas has got their number. I mean, Dallas made a bunch of threes and Oklahoma City couldn't make anything. I mean, I think we both agree it's going to go at least six or seven. For sure. This NBA playoffs, fan bill is giving all customers two chances to bring home a band. win with a no sweat same game parlay every weekend of the playoffs. Just place the same game parlay on any playoff matchup and you'll get bonus bets back if you

don't win. Then on everything from rebounds to assist the three-pointers and much more, guess what? Fandul is now live in our nation's capital, Washington, D.C. So visit Fandul.com slash mismatch and shoot your shot on America's number one sportsbook. Fandul, official sports betting partner of the NBA. Must be 21 plus in present in select states or 18 plus in D.C. Gambling problem, call 1-in-hundred gambler or visit RG-dash-help.com. Opt-in and minimum three-leg parlay required.

Bonus bets are non-withdrawable and expire seven days after receipt. Max refund $5. Restrictions apply. See terms at sportsbrook.fandul.com. But the Cleveland-Boston side, now that's a different question. if that game is more of a game two aberration like the Heat Celtics series was, where the heat got hot from three and they beat Boston for a gentleman sweep, or did Cleveland figure something out in game two and that they actually have something to take forward in the series?

Okay, so we've got to talk about this one. It's 118 to 94 Cavs over Celtics. Mitchell had 29, 8, and 7. Evan Moby had 21, 10, and 5, and they played small ball in this game.

Levert was the other guy that got big minutes for them with 26 minutes, but they really went with the one big. You had some Nyang minutes, you had some Tristan Thompson minutes, but generally, this is a team with the one big

and the four shooters. And Garland finally looked like Darius Garland that at one point was, not long ago, an All-Star in the NBA. And the one thing I'll say that makes me think twice about it just not being a Miami one-game aberration is that Cleveland has been super dismal on the road. Last year, smacked around in New York, first round, smacked around in Orlando.

and they've been pretty good at home, obviously good enough to get to this point, but they've been dismal on the road. And meanwhile, I saw a stat after the game that just floored me. Boston since 2021 is now 15 and 15 at home in the playoffs. What in the world? That is crazy. That's crazy. They're in the friggin' East Finals or the finals every year.

15 and 15. They're 500 at home. So it does make you think as you watch that tonight. But honestly, one of the teams, you know, I'll say this for Cleveland. They made threes tonight and obviously made more threes and shot a much better percentage, double the percentage. But in game one, Cleveland, fell into trying to play like Boston. And you're going to die doing that.

42 of their 90 shots in game one were threes. Like, who do you think you are? That is not how Cleveland can operate. Like, that's exactly what, like, Boston shoots 42 out of 93s. That's a Tuesday night. Like, that's just how they play. Cleveland's like, you can't match this, bro. so they shoot 42 of their 90 shots from three.

They got out rebounded by 17, 55 to 38, because now there's a bunch of long shots. These are missed shots. They got the bigger, longer athletes on the wings, too. So now you're getting crushed on the boards. And offensive rebounds, they got almost doubled up. Then you go to game two. Only 28 of their 86 shots that they took in this game were threes.

Much lower. And they shot a very good percentage and obviously hit 13 of those 28. They also out rebounded Boston by pretty wide margin. By the way, with just that one thing with Cleveland, it's only the first time this playoffs, they've shot above 36% from three. The first time, above 36%. I saw Bickerstaff's post-game press conference,

and he was like, we knew we'd eventually make some shout. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, we just have not been making shots. Like, it's not, it's not because we get a bunch of bad shots.

Like, tonight the shots dropped for us. And so that's why it looked good. And so, but they took a lot less of them, which is how they're going to have to operate, especially when Boston, without poor Zingis,

you know, their point of attack defense has been very, very good, but you still got to put pressure on them, you know, and get those, and get their defense moving around and then penalized them

for not having size, real size, which they did. Cleveland did a really good job at that tonight. They were getting past Al Horford who I thought he looked old and sluggish tonight. I think Horford had a really good year, but he did

not look like his full 100% self tonight. And the lineups that Missouli used with Tillman and Horford were a bit strange in the second half. A bit stray is a nice comment. I mean, I know he's probably, you know, he's throwing darts, trying to figure out what lineups to use

without Porzingis out there with the way Cleveland was getting penetration. In the second half, he, rather than dropping pick and rolls with Donovan Mitchell, he started switching the on-ball screens and then occasionally sending double teams at him as well, and that only led to other open threes or penetration from the imbalance defense. So they were trying things out there against Mitchell, trying to do different things, that's where I think if you're Cleveland,

you feel pretty good after tonight and Mitchell still has not had. I know he had over 30 points in the first game. I know he had 29 points in game too, but Mitchell still hasn't had his 40-point banger or even a 50-point banger. He's fully capable of a night like that if necessary. And it may very well happen in Cleveland,

which is where it normally happens, but he was brilliant in the second half. This was a great Mitchell game because listening to him talk after the game, I watched his pressure as well. He had six points at halftime, and they're tied. And one of the reporters asked him about, was that a conscious effort that you wanted to get everybody else

involved in this game? And then when it's time to go score, it's time to go score. And he talked about kind of the defensive looks that they were giving him and also how, and this is where it was really smart. He was like, it was really important to get Evan going early. And obviously Evan Mobley was great in that first quarter because now he's like super engaged. I've had the ball. I'm scoring.

They got the best version of Evan Mobley. That's the best Evan Mobley's looked in what? Forever. When is the last time you, I know, when is the last time you watched a Mobley game and came away that impressed with him? Right out of the gates, he looked great. too. I mean, getting to the basket, the playmaking, some of the... Well, he made the first three.

Yeah, I mean, he looks... This is like the version of Mowbly that the Mobley optimist believe him. This was it tonight. Yep. Yes. And he said it was intentional in some ways to get everybody else involved and have everybody, you know, feel good about themselves, but especially Mowgli.

And then obviously Mitchell's like, well, and then second half came. And now this is where You can, he'll, if you listen to him, he'll really give you some really good insight and explain why he is so damn good. Mitchell is very thoughtful. He's very thoughtful. He's very thoughtful. Once years ago, he is so smart.

So he understands himself. So I look, I didn't see the presser. I look forward to seeing what you said he shared. And one of the things he said was, and this is all about the intentionality of his six points and they're tied, but everybody else is going. because now I'm getting to the second half, now everybody's got to, now you got to worry about this guy and this guy and this guy and this guy. My time's going to come.

If all of these guys are cracking, now you're going to have to start defending them. Now it's my turn. Because if you're going to pay this much attention to me, well, now we're going to make it so you can't. And then everybody did. And next thing you know, and a lot of it.

And then, well, I tell you this, Missoula's press conference. I know you went to a lot of Boston press conferences in your day. You got to watch this one. There's a reporter that asked him. I wrote it down. I swear to God, this is the question. You haven't gotten your ass kick like this in a long time.

How do you recover in two days when there's another game? Do you know who the reporter was? Who asked that? I don't know. They didn't say their names. I love that now. I gotta hear it. No, he literally said that.

You haven't gotten your ass kicked like this. That's amazing. I gotta find out who it was. And then Joe Missoula, you know, he's so awkward, depressed. He's like, same way we do after a win. Watch the film, get better. You know, I mean, obviously he's not the real mood to be talking about. But I just thought it was so ballsy to say, hey, hey, man,

you really hadn't gotten your ass kicked like this in a long time. I was like, damn. I saw a quote on, I believe it was Tatum who said it as someone posted it on X after the game. And Tatum said something that it just kind of reflected what I felt like was a really passive attitude from Boston in the entire game. He's like, well, it doesn't make a difference if you lose by two or 25. It's still a loss. You know, at the end of the day, like technically you're right.

It's still a loss at the end of the day. But I just feel like Boston, how many times over the years, during this entire era. Does this team just not take these games seriously? They play with their food so often. It's not until moments are serious, late in serious, that you see Tatum have big scoring nights where he's completely locked in. But so often, they don't stomp out these teams that they should. I know Cleveland is also missing guys without Jared Allen, without Dean Wade, two of their better defenders. But Boston, even without Porzingis, should still be beating this. team especially because Cleveland's missing guys.

And I just, I continually am disappointed how this is happening over and over and over again. And so much of it stems from Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown with some of their limitations where Tatum, I'm not sure if there's been a game this entire postseason. He's been the best player on the Celtics. I know they beat the heat four to one. I know they're one to one against the Cavs right now. And I know he's doing other stuff on the floor. He's rebounding.

he's defending, he's playmaking, Tatum's doing a lot. But at the end of the day, you are their Supermax star player. And on the nights that Derek White is off as a score, Drew Holiday has been horrific in the postseason, again, putting up Eric Bletson numbers, shooting below 40% both from 2 point range and 3 point range.

If you're Tatum, you're getting paid the big bucks, so your team isn't in a hole in nights like this, so they don't have to go into Cleveland losing home court. Now, I'm disappointed there, again. Who is the fearsome wing defender that Cleveland's bringing to the table like a Lue Dort, like a... Jane McDaniels. Right, when we're watching around the league. Like, Alexander Walker.

I mean, there's so many of them, man. You're like, no wonder these guys are in jail. These guys are, you know, look at the defense they're going up against. And they've got help with it. But like, Cleveland is a good defensive team, but they do it as not on the backs of individuals. individual brilliance. It's not like Mowgli's out there checking. Okoro's really, really good,

but he's not the level of some of those all defensive guys we're talking about. Correct. Not the kind that you would think, bro, if you walked into any other scenario and you said, how do you like the Tatum Okoro matchup? It's like, come on. Like,

what? Like, no disrespect to Isaac Okoro, but Jason Tatum should be able to cook. And they are they fall into these malayses and so much ISO. And, you know, Missoula was like, basically everything about this was about their, it's very interesting. I always feel like he's pointing to offense when he's talking about things.

Missoula is a different cat in terms of this because almost everybody is always talking about defense, right? You listen to most of these press conferences, and that's what coaches are always paying attention to the most. And his, like, if you ask him about their defense, you know what he says? Our poor offensive spacing led to our bad defense. Hmm. Their ball pressure and the fact that they were up on their spots

and their closeouts and the fact that our spacing was so bad, led to then us getting into two-on-ones, but we're also having, you know, we're not passing the ball well when we get into those two-in-one situations. Because right there, they're coming out so far, if we're to explain this, they're pulling us off at the three-point line, we drive, and then we fumble the ball away. We're a mess doing it. I'm paraphrasing, but that's basically what it is, right? Then they can get going the other way. So most teams view it like our defense fuels our offense, we hang our hats on the defensive end, and we've got to do a better job. His was, our offense sucked, that's the problem with the defense tonight.

Because now we're not in our spots. Now we're not able to play half-court defense. Now we're mixing and match in, and they're getting space that they should not have. And it's because our offense stunk. And I was like, wow, you don't hear that all that often. Usually it's still like, look, even when the shots are, How many times have you heard, even if the shots aren't followed, we still got to play defense. It's not off at all.

Coaches are always talking defense and that's it. All they do. He's like, yeah, yeah, I know. I know our defense was, you know, and we gave up those percentages. But it's because our offensive spacing was so bad. He just kept saying that. I was like, wow. By the way, the reporter, I found the clip real quick and just played it.

It was Gary Washburn. Gary, Gary, Westburn. Oh, and Missoula hates his ass, right? He hates him, yeah. Missoula hates Gary Washburn. I love Gary. Gary is one of my favorite people in Boston Sports. He's been in the Boston Globe for years. Gary's a really good dude.

Him and I have a good bit. Every time we see each other, I was still working in Boston at the time. I think it was the 15 drafts, and I had my draft guide and all that. And the Cavaliers drafted Jetty Osmond in the second round. And I remember saying, like, ooh, I like, Eddie Osman. He could be a good role player. And Gary's like, who the hell is Jenny Osmond? How do you know?

Or he called him SETI, because everybody crowds a SETI because he's he, who said, how do you know who Sedy Osmond is, right? It's just so, for years, so 10 years now we've just had a bit about him. Gary's great. Missoula hates him. Hates his guts because Gary's always like, have you ever thought about driving the ball?

I know, yes. It's the same guy, right? Shooting so many threes. Yeah. Yeah. He hates the three points. I can't imagine. the column Gary's going to have if the Celtics lose like with a bad shooting night where it's like people are saying

you know drive the ball attack the basket and Madzola's like no we're just going to shoot Gary Wash Run's going to come out in a banger if that happens. They were eight for 35 tonight. Yeah. I mean you see how ugly it looks

when they don't shoot well. Dude it's it's gross. I mean like going back to the rocket stays the James Hard and you know Mori ball rockets when they have those off shooting nights it is gross. It's gross. It's gross.

It's gross. So he, okay, so now this makes more sense. I had a feel like, I kind of knew it was Gary. I just didn't hear it back. So that's a guy with like real gravitas within there. He's obviously covered all kinds of coaches. Like, you know, I got. No, right.

A guy like that's like, I'm out last you too. You'll be gone and I'll be dealing with a new coach, right? You got to have real gravitas and have been around for a long time. But still, to start a question. with you haven't gotten your ass beat like this. That's great. So Boston. Shout out Gary Washburn.

You haven't gotten anybody can go watch it. It's up. You can find it. NBA posts these. You haven't gotten your ass kicked like that in a long time. How do you recover? I was like, damn.

And Missoula really didn't bite with the short reply. He never does. What do you make of them being 15 and 15 at home since 2021. What I make of it is this is just an inconsistent, unreliable team.

One of the reasons why I don't believe in them to win the NBA finals. They've been like this ever since Tatum was only 19 literally. They've been like this for years, regardless of who the coach was, whether it was Udoca, whether it was Brad Stevens. It hasn't mattered who the supporting players were, whether it was Gordon Hayward or Kyrie Irving or Isaiah

Thomas, they've always been this way. And so I think this is just who the DNA of this team is with Tatum and Brown as some of the best guys on that roster. Because even when they were young, there were still some of the better players. I think this is just who the team is. We talk about how the character of your team is so often defined by the star players, whether it's the sons. Yes, Frank Vogel gets fired and he's getting the blame here.

He's the scapegoat. but they've been a dismal, you know, just depressing team to watch because of Kevin Durant, Bradley Beale, and Devin Booker. We talk about this with the Clippers and Kauai Leonard and Paul George and James Hardin now, how this team just kind of lax that it factor because those guys aren't leaders. And I think with Boston, this is why on nights like this, whether it's the on court or the off court. In the past it was Marcus Smart, who had to be the leader, who had to be the voice. people have talked about how Al Horford is the guy who has to set a tone for that team when he was

closer to his prime. Now it's, oh, well, they need Derek White. Well, they don't have Chris Stavs, poor Zingis. It's everybody else. It's not Tatum and Brown. It's everybody else. It's on them to do it. But that's why I think with Tatum and Brown being the highest paid players on the team, some of the highest paid players in the league, those guys are the ones that need to pick up their play in nights like this. And they also need to grow their voice in become more leaders. And maybe that's just not who they are. Well, and the care factor, right? Like, because you remember the story of Marcus Smart going into the locker room and breaking a chair and that like, you remember, like, reporters are like, man, they still haven't opened this thing up,

but it's been 45 minutes and I can hear screaming. And then everybody's like, it was Marcus. Marcus just like went ballistic on the team. This is when they were getting their ass kicked, right? They were down 3-1 or whatever it was to Miami. And it's like, Is there anybody, does anybody breaking a chair tonight over this? Like it just felt like, three. Oh, yeah, three. That's right. And then they had the team meeting because they were having some chemistry issues. They had a team meeting hashed it all out.

And things were pretty good from there within that series. They talked about that, how they had the meeting and they got whatever they had to do out in the air. And that was initiated by Marcus Smart. It's just so bizarre for them to, I mean, their crowd's been there for so many years. like there's such rich history. Oh my God. The crowd is still one of the best in basketball. Like despite all the success, sometimes teams have success.

I buy what you're saying, though. And you get the suits in the lower bowl. But Boston cries are still some of the best in the league. I buy what you're saying. And it's the, it's the, because you brought up those other teams that we look at. We go, what is it, man? Like you got the talent. You got the talent.

It is teams take on the personalities of their best players. End of story. They just do. And that's, you're still not to the point where it's like, we're up one nothing and we're going to bury you. Like they're never just going to go 17 and 3 through a playoff run. And just,

you know, have this, you know, bury you every night. They're still willing to, I mean, they got people about like 30 points by the cab. That's unbelievable, honestly.

It's truly unbelievable. It's not like they got beat 104 to 102. They could beat 120, what do I say? 124 to 90s? That was crazy. 118 to 94. It was a lot to a little. Yeah, it was a lot to a little.

We can talk about the other Eastern Conference one that is going on, which you want talking about a team taking on the personality of their players, that Knicks team. God, God, I love watching that Knicks team, man. I mean, I don't know how any, I don't know any objective viewer. I understand if Indiana hates their guys or sixers fans. Or Sixers fans, right. But any objective viewer, if you're just a basketball fan.

God, they're fun. I mean, it's literally everything you teach kids when they're young. And I say this is a father, which is give it everything you've got. if it's not good enough, it's not good enough. But don't let it be because you didn't give it everything you've got. And like one through, well, really five, because they have no players left. Well, seven sometimes. I mean, you feel like they would be willing to die on the court if they had to win, though.

Take a literal bullet. Yeah, that's a DNA. It's a DNA. I mean, God, it's awesome. And look. I, if I'm being honest, and so give me some grace here. Knicks fans always get mad when I, anything negative you say there's a segment of Nix fans that don't like to hear it. But here's the truth.

After game one, I told you, they didn't do much of the Knicks stuff, the offensive rebounding, the steals, the blocks, the whatever. And I also said, well, you can't be playing these frigging all-star games against a team that wants to play the all-star game. Okay? they did it again in game two and got away with it. And all I'm saying is the only way this series can become a series is if New York wants to keep on trying to run and do this run and gun, space and pace. And the more it's a war,

the more it's in the gutter, the better it is for New York. And there was about a six-minute span of game two that won them that game, which is that it's right after halftime. And they outscored them like 21 to 5 or 21 to 6 or whatever. And that run was able to sustain them really the rest of the game where they just got every stop and then they would go. But so much of the game was just kind of free-flowing basketball, right?

Yes, there's hustle plays here and there. But I feel like those guys, Indiana is way too comfortable. I really did, especially after watching the Knicks against Philly. I don't think that they have brought the same defensive intensity that they brought to that Philadelphia series. And they may not need to. They may just be able to. I just don't want them trying to get in these will outscore you games because that's where the Pacers dwell. And Lord knows they're going to get every call.

in the next game. After Carlisle, Oh, my God. And sending in 78 calls. Ridiculous. I mean, it's going to change.

They're humans. It's going to change. I, you know, I covered a series like this. David Fisdell went after game two in San Antonio. And anybody, anybody that's young that's out there can look this up.

Just type in, take that for data on the internet. And he slammed his fist. And he went through all the numbers. He said, take that for data. And he said, you're not going to rook us and they're cheating us and blah, blah, blah, right? And then, of course. Dude, that was 2017 when that happened.

Oh, my God. And then Memphis got calls in game three. Wow. You know what I mean? How was that in 20? That was our first year doing our podcast. Yeah, take that for that a year. That was that long ago.

Oh, my God. 2016, 17 season, the 17 playoffs. Wow. Kauai was like Jordan in that series. I mean, it was like... I can't believe it was that long ago. It might have been the best basketball I've ever seen anybody play in a series. Like he was unstoppable, a force of nature.

Now, me, I mean, part of that was he was being guarded by like James Ennis and Wayne Selden. Tony Allen had torn his hamstring on the last game of the year. And so we didn't really have any wing defenders out there anymore. But he was God. He was ungodly. The point was, I've seen a coach do this, get the fine, bitch greatly. It has an impact.

It just does. Because now you've put it on center stage. And so the 78 calls being turned in is hilarious. It is. Yeah. 78, not like 9 or 10. 78 calls that you thought were bullshit. That's crazy.

Well, I look forward. I mean, those are the things Indiana is handling what's in their control. They're sending in, they're complaining, they're doing all that. We'll see how the officiating is. That's out of their control. What's in Carlisle's control are his decisions. In game two, McConnell was the best defender that the Pacers had to go against Jaylen Brunson.

He was the best offensive creator that the Pacers had through two games. And yet he didn't play down the stretch in the fourth quarter. That was crazy. In favor of Andrew Nemhard, Nemhard was just getting smoked by Brunson. His eyes lit up any time he saw Nimhard defending him. And yet Carlisle didn't make that change. Through games one and two, two things have held true of both games.

All five Pacers starters have had a minus in the plus minuses. Every Pacer's bench player has been in the positives in both games. Now, plus minus is a finicky stat, obviously. However, those Pacers bench units, have taken advantage of those mixed rotations often at the end of a long stretch towards the end of quarters and all that. One of the questions on my mind entering game three with the Pacers at home is, if Carlisle begins to go with, say, more McConnell, or even more Ben Shepard,

who's played very well in this series, is there a point of diminishing returns with those guys when they're facing the Knicks at the start of a fresh rotation at the start of a quarter after a break, at the, like, in the, instead of, of just playing 18, 19, 20 minutes. I wonder, will he tweak some of these rotations? Because Memhard has not been great, McConnell has been. I'd play McConnell and I'd up those minutes. I agree with you.

He should be playing more than 22 minutes a game. You need guys that are going to meet the intensity of those Knicks players. And he's bringing it, man. He does. Andy's talking shit to the crowd and everything. Oh, it's so fun. Oh, I mean, he was, he's been outstanding. And he was great at the end of their last series.

against Milwaukee. He won them the series by closing out fourth quarter. I mean, he is, he's got, he's got something to him. And I also think that that depth has been such a huge advantage for them. I mean, they've outscore every time you see any of the bench scoring stuff. It's just ludicrous. The Knicks, it feels like they've got like five points off their bench in two games. Well, I mean, they had three in the first game.

They had 12 in the second. Okay, so 15. And what India, and India had 40-something in game one. Yeah. In game two, would they have? They had, uh, they had, uh, they had, doing the math of 46 in game two. Okay.

So we're almost a 90. Yeah. In two games. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And, and look, uh, they'll get, uh, I would imagine their crowd's going to be lit. Uh, game three is usually a game. The home team wins.

and they'll get calls because of this being on center stage. Like, it'll be a harder game for the Knicks to, and then they have not gotten in, like, super foul trouble to where their depth is even really called into action. And so it's going to be interesting to see if it becomes a tighter whistle, if more stuff is let go, but it's just human nature for these refs to have it in the back of their mind. And 78 is just a crazy, I'm sorry.

That's just so extreme. But Kevin, they've only played 96 minutes. Mm-hmm. No, yeah, 96 minutes so far. Neither game went to overtime. 78 missed calls in 96 minutes? Mm-hmm. We'll see.

Okay. The Knicks are going to win the series, though. So we'll see. Just how many games are like. I mean, I said it before the series. I know. I said it before the series. I just don't think it's going to make a difference.

All the complaining you can do. It's more about your rotations. and who you're putting out there and not allowing Miles Turner to take step back threes down the stretch of the game. Those are the things in your control. The Knicks didn't win that game because of a bad officiating.

They won that game because they were the better team, period. I thought the Knicks were going to win, and I did not think, I thought it would, I thought it would be rather dominating. But I must tell you, I do not feel that way now. I don't.

Just because of the way these games have been played and now, the an Ananoi injury is terrible. I don't care what they say. I don't care what the reports are. Kevin, you and I have been on this podcast for eight years. That dude grabbed the back of his leg the second it happened. And you remember, even the night of the Porzingis thing, we were talking.

I'm like, bro, players know. Watch them, they know. and Porzingis grabbed that thing and I didn't give a damn that he tweeted that night like, oh, I'm going to be fine. No, you're not going to be fine. And now we're not seeing him. And I bet we won't see him again.

I'm not kidding. OG, you mean, we won't see him again. I don't think we'll see Porzengis either. I think we will at some point. We'll see him again. Boston will go far enough that we'll see Porzingis again. All I'm saying is nobody comes back faster than what they say,

everybody comes back in a longer amount of time than what they say. If you have a groin, a hamstring, or a calf, it's every year we do this in the playoffs. And even if you do come back, you're limited, and you can hurt it again. You're not 100%. And he is so vital to the Knicks. Well, you have to be super careful with the Porzingus one

Because he's a long, he's a long lanky guy And you come back messing around with the calf, you're putting the Achilles into play Oh, for sure. And his lower body injury history is so freaking long, dude. How many, hey, how many times they tell us, Janus might be? And then he does it still can't walk, bro. He got hurt in the regular season. He still can't, like, run.

So this stuff is just once you do it, you do it. I hate it. But the second OG, OG fell on the ground when he did it. And if you saw him going back to the locker room, he was hobbling like hell. He grabbed that thing like you see it. When guys like, it's like it feels like you got shot or something. Or it feels like a rubber band broke or it's like stretched to the end. And, you know, in many cases that is what it's like.

But I don't. I'd be surprised if we see Ananovi, honestly. That looked bad to me. I hope I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. Did you hear Bill Simmons monologue on his podcast yesterday and I talked about how he thinks Minnesota is going to sweep Denver? Do you agree with them? No, I do not.

I do not agree. How far does the series go? Does Minnesota win it? Does Denver have a incredible comeback? Does Yokic prove why he is, does he show that I'm actually one of the 10 greatest players in the history of basketball? Is this the series where he rises up the pantheon? Is that what you're predicting? What do you think?

I have never been scared to make a prediction on things, even though I know you can end up with that on your face. Here's what I'll tell you. Who cares? This is where I'm at right now. I think Denver will split in Minnesota, and they will win game five, and there will be a game six.

Minnesota. Am I confident they would win that? No. But regarding a sweep, I just think that this team has been down, we've seen them down, you know, 3-1, we've seen them down 02, we've seen them in spots like this before. And they have a DNA of a championship team. They do. And so I just think while it looks like they have no chance, it's what we said after that. first one. I still have to give them the respect that. And I don't think, no, I don't think, I don't think they're going to get swept. So I think they could be down 3-1 going back home. And then they win five on their home and probably lose six in Minnesota. That's what would be my guess right now. I think everything you said is relevant, the history, you know, the 3-1,

and, you know, Yokic being, you know, how amazing as he is, and Murray, the big games he's had and all that championship DNA, what they did last year, all of that matters. But if you are just looking at this series in a vacuum, Minnesota versus Denver, this does feel like a series that's heading towards a sweep, which is why those Yokic implications feel so massive from a historical perspective. Because all that history does matter, but also not really, This is where you are today and the circumstances are so far different now than they were then. Murray's not 100%. The teams are different.

The team is on a second run in a row. They're probably feeling more fatigue. Minnesota is long, lanky, tough, connected. They play as one on defense. Anthony Edwards is getting Jordan comparisons. This team is different to wolves. They were built to beat the nuggets by the guy who built the nuggets. And it feels like a series that is going to be a sweep today, which is why

I can't wait till the game on Friday night to see what Yolich does. To me, this is the game where Joker has to come out after winning his third MVP and take 30, 35, 40 shots if he needs to in order to drag his team to victory. This is one of those legacy games, I think, down 2-0 going on the road to try to go back to back.

I can't wait. I'm just to fire it up to see what ends up happening. And we'll see because Minnesota is going to come out hungry too. Well, and game one was not some kind of wipeout. Super impressive that Minnesota won that game on the road. That game was a competitive game. And that game featured Gobert as well. So it's going to be an interesting element as well coming back, right?

Now they're going to be a different team than what they were in the last one. Again. Right. And so we'll see. And a lot of time off between those games. Monday night. We've recorded our pod on Monday night after that game. It feels like forever ago. It does. It was forever ago in NBA times. Monday to Friday. What? You're watching games every single night, right? I can't believe it's already mid-May. It's May 9th as we record this right now. My goodness, the time is going by so freaking fast.

Yeah. Crazy. The lottery's on Sunday, dude. What the hell? We're already here at the draft lottery. And we're going to stay. Well, I'll keep. all the draft stuff for after we know what the order is. But I will tell you, it's already May 10th here, Kevin. It may still be May 9th where you are.

It's May 10th where I am. Also, you mentioned Yokic winning his third MVP. That did happen since we last spoke. You voted for him, right? I did vote for Yokic. Okay. I don't think it's like, no. Most people did.

Obviously. No surprises this week. Yokic wins MVP. Goberra wins defensive player of the year. No surprises. You know what was kind of crazy, though, when I saw this lined up after Yokic won that, is Maxi won, what do you win? Most approved? Yeah, most improved. That's the only Eastern Conference Award win.

Oh, yeah. How about that? Nas Reed getting six man. Yeah. Coach. Dagnol. Yeah. Defensive.

MVP. I mean, it's the far better. Clutch player. Yeah. Like, even those goofy awards are giving out one to the West, too. I mean, it's not even close. The West is the far better conference. It's not even close.

Yeah. Well, all you had to do is watch the play in between Atlanta and Chicago or whatever. Yeah, I know. Right. You can have seen that. You know, on the other hand, we're watching, like, you know, fucking Warriors and the Lakers and these kind of things, right? I'll tell you what, like, who I'm going to see.

represents the East is going for a rude awakening if it's Minnesota or Denver in the files. I think you got to, I mean, I think those things are both so good. And I just feel like a team usually responds. But I'm maybe, look, I'm not ruling out that Minnesota could just wax them. But I still, I just have in my head that they deserve my respect. They do. They do.

You and me have been in this podcast so long, we, buried them as did everybody. We were doing off-season previews for them. Where do they go from here? Down 3-1 to the Clippers. We did it. And we did it. They did it against Utah, too.

You remember? They were down, I think, 3-1 to them, too. Yep. And Stormback. In the bubble, back-to-back series. They've been down 3-1 twice. And then you're just like, ah, yeah. they're done.

And then they storm back at one, those series. And it's like, I still just have that in my head. Like, man, it's looked bleak for them before. And they pulled it out. Never have faced adversity like this, though. Not like this. Where you're trying to go back to back. That's a different level.

That is a different level. I can't wait, man. Oh, we'll get to talk about it all by Monday night. By Monday night, we'll get to talk about it. all. Everybody, have a great weekend. Thank you to our executive producer Jesse Lopez as always. And Kevin, I will talk to you on Monday night. Can't wait, man. Must be 21 plus in present select states or 18 plus in D.C. Fandul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with the Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit fandul.com slash

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