The Mismatch - Cam Thomas Looks Like an NBA Scoring Threat and More Summer League Observations. Plus: Mirin Fader on Her New Giannis Antetokounmpo Biography.

Episode Date: August 13, 2021

Kevin O’Connor has landed in Las Vegas for summer league, so he and Chris dive into all of their observations, starting with how last year’s rookie class is faring and whether we underrated them because of the challenges created by COVID-19 (1:00). Then they talk about Cam Thomas’s incredible scoring bonanza and his fit on the Nets (13:20), the contributions of a few undrafted players, like Isaiah Miller and Omer Yurtseven (21:18), Kevin finally seeing Alperen Sengun play in person (28:45), and which players people in Las Vegas are buzzing about (33:00). Finally, The Ringer’s Mirin Fader joins to talk about her new book, 'Giannis: The Improbable Rise of an NBA MVP' (37:05). Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Guest: Mirin Fader Associate Producer: Sasha Ashall Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Listen on Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to The Mismatch. I'm Chris Vernon and joining me as he does every Friday from the Ringer.com. It's Kevin O'Connor, A.K. Kevin O'Bomber, Kevin O'Blesserian, Kevin O'Clymer, Kevin O'Candee, Kevin O'Clycerian, Kevin O'Clymer, Kevin O'Cand, Kevin O'Clycerian, Kevin O'Cli. Kevin O'Hern O. Hey, have you run into your buddy, Dan Blaserian, while you? you are out there where he probably, while you're out in Las Vegas, I could foresee a circumstance where you're walking through Caesar's Palace or the like. And Dan Blasarian stops in it. He feels

like he's looking in a mirror for a moment. That has not happened. And I would imagine maybe beard wise, it's potential looking in a mirror. Body wise, definitely not looking in the mirror. What is, what is Vegas been like? You got there a couple of days ago. And, And this was going to be a different summer league than we've ever had before. There was no summer league last year. But this year, you know, there was the fear even going in. Are we going to be able to make this happen? They postponed the first game.

Really no problem since, knock on wood. You see the stands? It appears like there's a lot of fans at these. Everybody's got masks on. Obviously, there's a mask mandate in Las Vegas. Just what's your feel and what is it like? It feels like Summer League still, just plus masks. That's true in the casinos.

It's true at the arena at Thomas and Mac Center. I would say I'm a little bit surprised walking through the casinos. I expected to see less people wearing masks. I thought it would see just a lot of people drink in their hand so they get pulled down their mask. But 95% of people seem like they're wearing their mask walking through the casinos at the arena. same thing. It feels like Summer League still. It's obviously weird this year, but people are doing their thing.

Hopefully, you know, I mean, everybody with the NBA has to be vaccinated to go into the arena. Fans, hopefully, most of them are too. Hopefully most people who aren't are considering getting the vaccine soon. But yeah, it's been a fun week. I've enjoyed my time at the arena, enjoyed my time with meetings, which is mostly what I've done. Funny part, we were at Momo Fouca. Dave Chang's great restaurant. He is, you know, in Vegas, has places in L.A., New York, all over the world. We're at Momofuku. And so in the middle of the dinner, we see like Corey Kispert walk in,

Zach Collins walks in like with a scooter because he has his injury. So we're thinking this is some Gonzaggot dinner. Then Isaiah Livers from Michigan comes in. And then shortly after Miles McBride, who had a huge game for the Knicks on. Wednesday night comes walking in with his jersey on full jersey shorts and top and since it's like something out of like high school

like you're wearing your jersey you're like Little League Baseball you're wearing your jersey to the restaurant after the game and it's funny they all they all you know greeted him very warmly he took off the top of the jersey midway through but uh and just said they're shirtless that he had

his compression on it and he's still he did not go straight to the shower. He went straight to Momo Fuku so he would not be late. And by the way, Max Struce was there as well. Oh, big summer league game. Don't talk to me about Max Struz. I had a nightmare about Max Truce.

Chris, this was a high performing summer league dinner. A lot of priority sports guys. That's the connection between those Michigan and Zaguer guys. I got you. Well, one of the things, I've been watching this every chance I get afternoon, evening,

I have found this to be incredibly enjoyable, as we talked about earlier in the week. And one of the things that I have taken away over the course of the last three days since we last spoke, and I want to see if you agree with this. It struck me, as I was watching yesterday, you've got guys like Trey Jones. You've got guys like Tyrese Maxie. You've got guys like Emmanuel Quickly. You've got guys like Desmond Bain. You've got guys like Bull Bowl and Obie Toppin and all the, Patrick Williams, all these second year guys.

And a lot of them have really stood out for their respective teams. And what struck me was, I'm not so sure that we're not going to look back at last year's draft. And it was much better than what we gave it credit for during their rookie year. When it got to the all rookie teams, there was a common. refrain that it's hard to even come up with all rookie teams. It's hard to even know who to vote because the rookie class wasn't that good. There was Lamello and then like, you know, Halliburton had a good year, but it wasn't an outstanding rookie class year. And I think that these guys did not get the proper credit for having even a modicum of success,

given their circumstances. We've got to go back. They had no conference tournaments. They had no March Madness. They get drafted. We're all under quarantine. They got to find gyms. Everybody was just having to find gyms. Then they got to get ready for the draft.

Then they have no Summer League. Kevin, then they have no real training camp. Yep. Then during the season, they don't have practices. Nobody was practicing because there was games every other day. You're playing five games in seven days. And I think that now that we've gotten to this summer and I'm seeing these guys, and it's the first time they're getting to play Summer League, it strikes me that there was a lot more talent that I think is going to show up in this second year and this third year than we may have given that credit, too, for that rookie class.

That's what I come away thinking. I kept going to like, damn, man, these guys are good. And, you know, when you think about all the challenges of last year, I think it's fair to not give them a pass, but just to say that was so intensely awkward that, I don't know, I think, I think we're going to look back and there was a lot more talent than that than maybe our first impression. Yeah, I think you could be on to something there, you know, and that's very true in the sense with scouting some of these college prospect, but he talked on Tuesday or last week's show about

Zaire Williams and the challenges at Stanford. True at a lot of colleges this year for training and getting ready and how they might have performed and how it impacts, you know, what they're doing on the core. And ultimately, you know, we're seeing it the Summer League. Granted, guys with NBA experience are going to be helped when they're performing in Summer League and exhibition games with a bunch of guys who aren't going to be in the NBA. With that said, though, when you're seeing Tyrese Maxie play with pace and take pull-up threes and look comfortable.

When you're seeing Aaron, Neesmith, and Peyton Pritchard for the Celtics, by the way, Sixers Celtics on Saturday, big game, two of the highest performing teams in Summer League. When you're seeing those guys, Pritchard and Neesbith excel at a high level, Pritchard was good as a rookie, but could get even better. Neesmith struggled early on, figured it out late, but is looking like things are really clicking for him as a shooter now. Maybe that translates.

You're seeing Patrick Williams get even, better than he was as a rookie with Chicago. So Jalen Smith, for that matter, who didn't even really play all that much, had some good moments for Phoenix. I tell you, Kemp, I was watching, I was watching Jalen Smith that I was watching his highlights. And I'm like, I mean, he can really rebound.

And he's got skill as a score. Like, he's, he can, he's got fluidity on the perimeter. He was knocking down threes. The goggles are awesome. Yes. There was part of me as like, why couldn't this guy get a couple, minutes. Like, I mean, you're telling me when, I mean, because they were getting smashed on the boards. Eton was alone. Truly alone. You know, and then they would try to play Frank Kaminsky for a minute

or two there. I get it. I understand, you know, when it's, when it's the highest stakes, it's very, very difficult to put a rookie out there. But there was part of me that was watching him, like, come on, man, he could have given you some fouls. He could have given you some minutes. He could give an eight and some rest. This guy might have been able to. He's not a stiff. It's not like he can't play. And so maybe you just didn't want to throw him in the fire because the truth is,

three minutes can alter a game completely. And if it is a disaster for three minutes, it could really hurt you. But he was in the same position as this is the other thing that stood out to me. Almost all those guys that you mentioned, Kev, you've got quickly, you've got Maxy, you've got the two Boston kids. Well, one of the things about last year, and we talked about the ridiculous schedule, all those teams were playing to win. And it is very, very difficult to serve two masters,

which is get young players minutes and develop them and also care about winning every night, right? It's very, very difficult to pull off. even Patrick Williams, right? They did run him out there. They ended up missing the playoffs, right? It might have been easier to run a veteran out there every single night at that position. But it's hard to serve two masters. And several of these guys that have really stood out, we didn't see them all that much because it just so happened.

They were on good teams this year. Or at least teams that were trying to win because the players, were the goal. In many cases, with young players, you know, the goal is to develop their young players, you know, and the wins will come later. But with veteran teams or teams that are expected to be there, that's not so. You know who the other one is? And God, I love him. Kevin, I love him. I mean, I love him. Trey Stones. Oh, I love. Trey Stones, I love. But this guy, I mean, it got to the point where I was on eBay the other night. And I was looking for the rookies.

Who's this? Oh, I love Bow, Bull, God. Oh, okay, yeah, Bob. Nothing is more fun than Bow, Bowl, seriously. When he is in the open court and he's dish it all passes and he's stepping into threes and catch it alley-oops, like I love everything about Bull-Bow. And I don't know if you have seen this, but if you go to, like, eBay, he has the absolute greatest autograph of all time.

He really does. Like his autographed cards, you got to go look one up while I'm talking to you. It's like, and I don't mean this in a mean way. It's like my, it's like my son. It's like my,

not even my son, because he's 11. It's like my daughter wrote it. You know, it's like when you write when you're a child. And it's just B-O-L-B-O. Oh, it's amazing. Amazing.

And it's, it's cards. People want the cards right now. That's not, that's not cursive. No, oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no. His signature is print, B-O-L, B-O-L. It's amazing. But again, we didn't even see Bowl Bowl, right? I mean, he's, you know, he would theoretically be playing behind the MVP of the league,

but we just don't see him during the year. And yet there he is, and he's having some moments in this summer league. There's a lot of these guys that appear to be, you know, very talented players that were on good teams. Speaking of Kev, we got another situation like that where who knows how much we will see him during the regular season, especially with the addition of Patty Mills, because Patty Mills is a heater himself, a kid that you saw who probably stole the night, last night, in Cam Thomas. We talked about him briefly on Tuesday. I had watched him play in his first game, and there was about a five-minute span where he was scoring virtually every possession.

You know, he was advertised as a scorer. They put up that list, and it's like Michael Beasley, Kevin Durant, Mark L. Fultz, this kid, Like, there's very few freshmen that have ever averaged 23 a game in college. And he did. And the scoring, who knows what will happen on the NBA level, but it has certainly translated to the Summer League level already. Yeah, his feel for the game, his ability to create and draw files, it's beyond his years.

I mean, like, he had a, he had a play. Obviously, he hit the game winner that a funky shot at the buzzer, but he had a play in the first half. Who was that guy guarding him? I mean, that looked like it was lifetime fitness. With the white head, the white guy with the white headband. And I'm like, come on. I believe that was Kisper.

Are you serious? If I'm remembering correctly from last night. I believe that was Corey Kisper Gardner. Corey, we got to do. We got to get rid of the headband. We're lifetime fitness out there. Oh, what? Thomas had a play in the first half.

where he was closing out, blocked a jump shot, and in transition, faked a pass for a lob dunk to make a wide open layup opportunity. And I thought it just captured his feel and what he could become as an overall player. I think he's made some really great passes through Summer League. He's shown that he's like not just some selfish fall hog. Like the skeptics of him say that. He's not just that. He can pass if he needs to.

he's a score first player. And man, like he just seems like he's going to become one of those guys. Whether he becomes an all-star or a great player or just a good like microwave score off your bench, we'll see how things pan out. But there's no, I have no doubt about this guy's ability that his scoring will translate. He's just one of those guys who at every level of basketball can get buckets. In high school, he broke records as a score. In college, like you said, one of the best scorers in the entire nation.

In Summer League, one of the best scorers. And the NBA, it might take some time, but it won't shock me if this guy's going to become one of the better scores. And by the way, who better to learn from than James Hardin and Kevin Durant and Carrie Irving? And not only that, Patty Mills, too, a good mentor to have in front of you. I mean, not only that having those guys, but to play with those guys, you get to do the other things. You get to defend.

You got to pass. And he's going to have to learn that pretty quickly. And I think he will. If there was ever a place to get drafted that you can't be a ball hog. like if you're going to get your minutes. Yeah. You're not the guy that's supposed to be shooting my guy. You know what I mean?

No, no. There's, where are you on the pecking order there? And again, like we said, we may not see him get a ton of minutes this first year. And yet, you know,

and then it will be a guy that we kind of forget about throughout the year because he's not getting a lot of clock. Because if they're uninjured, there's just not a lot of minutes to go around. and yet he very well may be developing within their system. He's around those guys. He's learning from them. And we'll look back.

And I think this is fair to say that it may be a couple years before we look back and we give them proper credit for finding Cam Thomas late in the draft. Because he's not in a position to play immediately. And for a player like Kim, Kevin, I think I agree. I think that could be the absolute best thing ever for his development. You know, what you don't want is a guy like him going and just being able to take whatever shot he wants, you know, and scoring, you know, 20 points a game and having a good rookie year on a team that wins 22 games. Yeah. It's much better to be in the position that he's going to be in.

100%. And he's going to be in a position to have moments. Over the course of the regular season, Kyrie is inevitably going to miss up games, right? you know, Hardin might have a hamstring issue at some point during the year. You're going to see Patty Mills slide into a starting role during that time. And you're going to see Cam Thomas slide into a six-man role. And those are going to be the moments where Nets fans are like, oh, boy, oh, boy, we get a great young player on our roster. We're excited about the future.

We actually have someone that's not about the present. It's about the future. And it's not going to take him long to have those moments. like his feel, his shot creation ability, man. Do you think he's one of the, like, even including some of the second year guys, doesn't he feel like one of the most seasoned scores in Summer League right now? Look, you remember that whole topic I brought up on Tuesday when I was watching that game, Mark Jones and Doris Burke were calling the game.

And I said, this, and we started talking about development of young players. that conversation all started with a move that Can Thomas made and them talking about like this is crazy his hesitations. The fact that a kid comes in. This guy played one year of college and this is like what he's gotten his toolback. Like just the individual skill stuff.

And that's how they got off on that topic. And how about the shot he hit? Ridiculous. Early in that second overtime. like a leaning floater from three. It's insane. We had that one. We had Max Truce the night before against Memphis pull up and hit one.

Two double overtime games. One of the things it does highlight though, Kev, because for anybody that doesn't know, if a summer league game goes to overtime, they play two minutes. And then if it's tied at the end of that, then they just play sudden death, which is fun. But they should be doing the Elam ending. A hundred percent. They should be doing it. What are we not doing it for?

Why are we not doing this in Summer League? You know, I mean, we just watched, what was it? The, was it the TBT? That thing they do, the basketball tournament, the thing for a million bucks. And it had like the greatest moment ever at the end of it, right? Sykes. Yeah, Sykes. And then he signed to the team like right afterwards.

The next day. Maybe that same night it might have been. Yeah. I mean, look, I get it. The Camp Thomas moment was cool. Max Drew's moment was cool, but I like the idea of having an eel amending in this. We had it, you know, in that TBT thing. Obviously, we saw it in the All-Star game and we all loved it.

I really wish that I really wish they would do that. And instead of a two minute overtime and then like, let's just make it a number that you got to get to. I mean, it is still like, you know, there still can be great moments. Like, this is going to bring it back to Camp Thomas. hits a game tying three, sidestep three at the end of the first overtime, then hits that leaning floater. It still can create magical moments,

but the E-Lamendoming, for the most part, in those close end-game situations, tends to create some more exciting ones than the current format. And also, like, it's overtime in Summer League. Let's just wrap

up the game in relation with the E-Lamending. One of the things that I talked about on Tuesday was, there was that kid, Isaiah Miller. People were tagging me on this post. I guess the Timberwolves put it up that one thing they've learned in Summer League is Isaiah Miller's got hops or something. And I mean,

it was another like crazy dunk contest dunk that he had done at practice or whatever. But then I looked him up. He was Southern Conference Player of the Year, Southern Conference Defensive Player of the Year, like all of these different accolades. He's undrafted. He's there to prove his worth in Summer League. You also have, you know, these guys that you see.

and these are parts of the stories that I love. And I don't know if you've seen this guy, but he killed it in that L.A. Summer League, the real short one, the couple game one, that they played right before this one. Sacramento and Utah. Yeah, and now he's been very good so far in this Vegas Summer League. The Turkish guy, the center for Miami,

Omar Yertzegh, 7, who is this, Turkish seven-footer who, I think he went to NC State. He went to Georgetown. He had played for Finnerbachi coming up. And, you know, he was like Jordan Brand game. And he played in all that kind of stuff, the international game. And then, you know, at one point he played in Barclay Center back in 2015 as a 17-year-old. And he's taking this path.

And, I mean, he's got something to him. He's not a stiff either. And then I go, much like I had the same revelation where I'm watching him, and I'm like, who is this dude? And, you know, the numbers that he's put up in this summer stuff are outstanding. I go and look it up, and it's one of the things I'm like, when I'm reading through him, this is better than the Isaiah Miller one. During an under-18 youth competition in Turkey, your 7 recorded a double-double of 91 points and 28. rebounds. He scored 91 points in a game. 34 of 49, including five three-pointers, and grabbing 28 rebounds. I was like, what?

91 and 28. That's a double double. But he left, he left Fenerbachi. He went and played college basketball, and he's kind of been bouncing around. They played for the G League for Oklahoma City and now he's on this heat. He's on this heat team and he's not bad. You know what I mean? Like it's these stories of you don't know where these guys come from. I don't know if you've seen the video going around of the kid for Toronto. Wainwright that they just signed.

He played at Baylor and he actually even played tight end for their football team. and he starts crying, talking about, you know, his trek to get to the NBA and how difficult it's been being away from his family. He's been playing the last couple years in Germany, and there was a couple different teams that really wanted him, and Toronto ended up signing him. But, I mean, it was incredibly touching. And sometimes the path isn't always the same for these guys as to how they get to the NBA. And it's cool stories like that that when I'm watching and I'm going, who is that guy? And I end up looking them up, that you end up coming across some really cool stuff, you know, that is not just the top prospects. I mean, isn't that, I mean, it's true in life.

You know, the journey isn't always linear. You know, sometimes there's, you know, bumps in the road and everything. and for any professional athlete, if you're not going straight to the NBA, your choices are the G League, which for most guys, I believe the average G League salary is like 35K, 40K, something like that, or to go overseas and make hundreds of thousands, typically sometimes, for a lot of different leagues. So hopefully, like, it just makes you think hopefully someday for some of the American-born players, someday at the G League, that the average salary is, you know, 65, 70, 80, you know, the closer to a competitive rate compared to the international leagues.

Because that way, you know, easier to be around your family, your loved ones, your friends, and still pursue the dream of playing in the NBA. And if not, you're still home, right? And I mean, you know, you're still home. And, you know, for somebody that's already got a family that's got a family, that's got kids, you know, that's one of the things, that's what made him cry when he started talking about it. Because he's talking about his ability to sign with the raptors and what a blessing it is because he said it was awful being away from his family. But he did it so they

could have a better life. He did it so that they, like that's why he was doing it. You know, he was over there playing in order to support his family. And it's different, right? Like all of a sudden your what your motivations change greatly right once you have children and for some of these guys if they have children at a young age it's now i am i'm in support mode i want to go and be able to you know make enough money to support my family and for a kid with that kind of talent the you know his his next stop was going to be being away from them that was the sacrifice that he made. And so to see him accomplish his goal and get a multi-year deal with the Raptors, I would encourage anybody. The Raptors put it up on their Twitter feed so you can go watch

it. But the kid breaks down crying and it is, it's, it's very, very, very touching to watch it. And I love the stories like that for sure, you know, because I've watched the Raptors. I'm like, who is Wayne Wright? And then you go look it up and you're like, oh, man, what an unbelievable story. You know, sometimes you forget, there's only there's only 500. of these jobs, Kev. Yeah. Right? There's only 500 of them.

Not many, not many at all on the NBA. That's for damn sure. Yeah. I mean, the truth, the truth is, Chris, I mean, when we talk about the NBA and we say like a guy struggles or the guy sucks. Yeah. None of these guys suck. Absolutely. They are the best of the best in the world.

Yes. Kind of stinks. What does suck, Kevin, is that Jalen Green had to go out with the hamstring. Jalen sucks. had to go out with a hand injury. Obviously, we lost Giddy right at the very beginning, to what six minutes in to Summer League. And so here's knocking on wood and hoping that we don't see more of these,

and that none of these become something more than what they are. Because one of the great things is getting to see all of these outstanding prospects. And, you know, at least we got to see some of Jalen Green. and we certainly got to see a lot of Jailet Suggs. We didn't see nothing. I mean, Josh Giddy's first play, who is Australian, Lord knows I have gotten enough tweets from my Australian brethren for lumping him in with Euros.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to. It was a mistake. You did that? What did that happen? I said, because when we were talking about, I said, Was that Tuesday? I don't recall that. I said a couple of the,

Euro guys and I lumped him in with Sengoon and somebody else. I mean, oh, okay. Forgive me. Non-Americans. You probably just been international. Yes, that's what I met. I don't recall that. Boy, they didn't like my Australian brethren, who I love, I love Australia.

So we didn't get to see much of giddy. We only got to see six minutes of him. But you got to see your boy, Sengoon in person. Shenoon. He was amazing. Oh, you loved it. You loved it. Shen Goon.

When you saw him in person, I saw you, was it a video you took? I put up an Instagram story of him stretching. Stretching on the side. Full on split. What is he doing? How does he do that? He did that for like two or three minutes straight, just a full on split on the sideline before checking into the game.

He's doing that. He's showing off. That's showing up. I think he's showing up. He made me feel so inadequate, Chris. Yes, you don't need to do that kind of stretching, Shingoon. I think my body would break if I tried to stretch like that. Oh, you would certainly pop a hamstring.

A hundred percent. No question. Yeah, he's just, maybe a full-on tier. It's a red flag to me. It's red flags. Yeah, if you're going to be on that, if you're, because if you're on the sideline doing like the full splits and whatever, come on. Let me offer, let me offer a counter argument. He's putting on a show.

Go be in Sir Gilles. Let me get off for a counter argument. He has no shame talking to the ball. He has no shame doing a full on split on the sideline. I think it's a positive quality. You're not worried about what people think of you. Absolutely. And on the court, he's always going to do what it takes to win games,

even if it doesn't look pretty. That's my argument, Chris. He's going to go for it and do it. So your first impression, you know, obviously you have, worshipped this man on YouTube.com, but now getting to see him in person,

you were, you were smitten. He's, uh, the one thing I'll say is like, he is an undersized big. Um, and like moving, like, laterally, he still needs to improve. But with that said, I'm impressed by his positional defense. I think he's had

countless plays where he's just like in the right place. at the right time and affecting the play by the offense. And never mind some of the plays he makes on offense. He had that deep three. He had that pass, that highlight, left-handed bounce pass where he put English on the ball. Like, his feel, his skill level on offense is so rare for his age. I have a hard time.

It's like you said the other day, you tweeted out you have a hard time imagining there'll be four players better than Jayland's thugs. I have a hard time imagining there will be four players better than Jayland's thugs. Because I have a hard time imagining there will be 15 players better than Alper and Chen Gung. I have a hard time imagining that, Chris. There's too much skill. Too much skill. You are smitten.

I'm glad that he confirmed what you thought about him. That rocket's class, man. It's good. We saw Garuba. Yesterday I was at the arena for that. Josh Christopher. And obviously, Jalen Green.

Yep. They've all had some moments. They've all had some moments. Josh Christopher was a big high school recruit. Yeah. You know what I mean? And went and played for Bobby Hurley down at Arizona State where you can't be a nanny playing for Bobby Hurley, right? So, I mean, he probably got pretty good training ground in his one year there. And he kind of does a little bit of everything. That's a skilled guy, Josh Christopher. I was impressed by him. Who have you found when you're talking to people that people are buzzing about the most? This is a silly thought, but the first thing that pops into my head was Leangelo Paul. I think a lot of people were surprised that he's performed as well as he has with the hustle, never mind the knockdown shooting.

But as a role player, people watch the Hornets, you know, you're watching for Kai Jones and you're watching for Book Night. And it's like, oh, Lee Angelos is pretty good too. And he might make that roster. But obviously not the highest performer at Summer League, but with your question, that's the name that popped up. Some of the veterans, you know, in Portland. I saw Janice's brother just signed another contract this morning.

So let's go. You know what I mean? You want to keep a, you want to keep a mellow in the falls? Yeah, absolutely. And I think some of the veterans out there, too, for Portland, it's kind of weird seeing Kenneth Farid and some of these other guys on that Portland roster. I was thinking about this, Kevin, with Farid. I think he's average at like eight rebounds a game or something.

he's not playing a crazy amount of minutes. What if the game, what, Kenneth Farreed, to me, it was almost like, a player like him became extinct. Right?

Like, it was like the game moved in the direction where the value of Kevin, Kenneth Farid was greatly diminished. What if he's still young enough? Because he is. that it's come back around, right, to where a Kenneth Fareed is useful again, because you've got the Anthony Davises and the Yonis and the Yonkiches and all these different big guys now that are playing significant roles for teams.

What if the league comes back around for a guy like Kenneth Farid and he could get a gig again? And it's like he withstood the time where everybody had to be able to knock down threes to be able to get out a roster. And he's just still around. And he's like, whatever, 32 years old. He's not like he's 40. I mean, I kind of like the fact that we have some older players at Summer League. Because I think, you know, it shouldn't just be for young guys in the sense that if you're

an NBA team, there's so many veterans playing around the world that you might actually want to get a look at or ex-NBA players that you want to get a look at who could help your team. Obviously, it's always going to favor the young guys and it always should favor the young guys. But it is nice to see a couple of those NBA veterans sprinkled in there. I think, you know, the other team that people talk about a lot is that Celtics team. Sam Houser, you know, playing for them, launching threes. Obviously, we mentioned Pritchard earlier.

We mentioned Neesmith. But their team's loaded, dude. Like, that's a great Summer League roster. Great Summer League roster. Neesmith can really, really shoot. He can. I mean, I had a lot of people tell me before last year. draft that he and Desmond Bain were the two best shooters in the draft by pretty wide margin,

you know, and he didn't get all that many minutes. He turned up at the end of last season, but they may, you know, in a league that value shooting so much, he could certainly shoot the ball. It has been a very fun summer league so far. It's also been a great week for Mirren Fader, our coworker at the Ringer, who had the best luck of any human going, wrote a book about Janus. It dropped this week. And this book is, of course, coming after Janus wins an NBA championship, wins a finals MVP, scores 50 in an NBA finals game. And his story, so many people very interested on kind of how we got

to this spot. And we are going to be joined by Mirren Fader after these words. And now we are joined by the most important author in the world this week. She is Mirren Fader from The Ringer. Her book, Janus, The Improbable Rise of an NBA MVP, is at your local booksellers online, everywhere available this week. Mirren, thanks for coming on. What an intro. And we got the local booksellers. I like it.

Nice to see you guys. All right. First things first. How did this book come about? you know, obviously you take an interest to Janus, the story, but it's a big

undertaking to try to do a million interviews and do the book properly. Tell me about coming up with the idea and then when it kind of became a reality that you were going to write a book about him. Yeah, I used to work for Bleacher Report, and I did this story

on Alex, which is his youngest brother, and I went to Alex's house and Janus was there, and I just didn't expect him to be there. And then, you know, when I spent the day with them and their mom and their other brother, I was just like, oh my God, there's so many human sides to Janus that I guess I just wasn't aware of, you know, like he's so nurturing to his brothers. He's so kind. He's so smart and charismatic and thoughtful. You know, at the time in 2019, when I did this, people really, I felt only were talking about his body, right? Like, look at all these freakish things he can do. But

storytelling and all of the things that he went through to get to this point, I just felt like we're missing. And so it just felt like the perfect subject. The number of anecdotes in the book is remarkable. I mean, I texted you yesterday about the cookie jar one, my favorite in the book. Not going to spoil it for people who haven't gotten there yet in the book. But there's just so many funny ones. There's sad anecdotes. There's frustrating ones throughout this entire story. You interviewed over 200 people for. What was it? 221 people, Marron? 221. Yeah. 221 people. The amount of hours, total days you spend interviewing people probably just unfathomable. But through the process of like reading this book, like Janus, everything, every person I've ever talked to about Janus

is like he's just the nicest absolute person. There's really like nothing bad about him. Are you surprised in interviewing 221 people that there's like no, you know, oh, this guy was a dick to me. This guy was an ass. Like, there was none of that with Yonnas. Like, was there anything even remotely close? No. And that's why at first I was worried.

I was like, and you can't really write a book on a saint. But, you know, not anything. But I think there was just so much conflict in his life, especially early on. Yeah. It still made it compelling, even though he's so likable. I think to me what surprised me in learning, you know, how many people just genuinely love this guy is that He had every reason to be a jerk. Literally every reason to be a mean person who is angry and bitter and upset by the way his home country treated him. There was so much racism that he experienced. They barely gave him citizenship at the last minute. I mean, he has every reason to walk around like people did not respect me and treat me or think that I was anything. And instead, what I saw in my reporting throughout his entire life was this person who no matter what was going wrong, was always optimistic.

There's just this very, um, very genuine sense of optimism and brightness about him. Like when he had nothing in his home and he was introducing his childhood friends to his bedroom and it was just like a bed, he would just have this buoyed sense about him. One day I'm going to have a TV. One day I'm going to have books.

And I just think that carried him throughout his entire life. Where did that drive come from? I think it's watching his parents. Like they never had to say like, you need to work hard, you need to do this. It was, why is my mom leaving the house at 11 p.m. to sell items dangerously on the street? And she's going to be out for the next 14 hours. And then she comes home and she acts like she's happy and puts a smile on her face, washes my one pair of socks that I have, so I will have clean socks to go to basketball

practice. Not right there. Watching the dad sit there at dinner and not eat his portion and pretend that he's fine, even though Janus knows he hasn't eaten in two days. right there. So I think, you know, Janus is such an observer and such a great listener and so smart because he grew up watching people embody work ethic, watching people embody sacrifice. And so it's so ingrained in him. And that's why he never thought he was owed anything. Like when good things happen to him, he feels gratitude, not arrogance. And that's carried him all the way up to this point. I mean, I hope a lot of the young people who read this book take that away, right? The mentality that Yannis has. I mean, like, I was thinking about this the other night having a

conversation here in Vegas Summer League. I can't imagine what it's like to be like a 10, 11 year old kid right now, a Bucks fan rooting for Janus. You know, like, I was lucky to root for Tom Brady. You know, Chris, like we talk all the time about you and your son rooting for John Morantz. Mirren, you had Kobe Bryant to root for. Talking to Bucks fans throughout this. You had Bucks fans input in the book. I'm sure you've heard from a lot of Bucks fans. Since then, how has the reaction been so far first week of release? How if Bucks fans liked it, have you gotten a lot of good feedback from them? What did they learn, I suppose? Yeah, you know, I mean, because these are people that study honest religiously, right? They thought they knew everything

about the Greek freak. And they were just like, I knew nothing about his childhood, you know? And it's been really nice to hear that because that's what you hope. But I think, think the thing that makes me really happy is that they're saying, like, thank you for capturing what it felt like to be a Bucks fan all those losing years. Because I think, like, it's easy to be a Bucks fan right now. But it was not easy in the 90s when they were awful. And the arena was terrible. And everyone was ragging on them and saying, just shut up. You're lucky to even have a team. And so, and that's why I wanted to talk with them, because I feel like to understand what Yonis means to the Bucks, you have to understand the psychology of a Bucks fan, which is always being hopeful,

always loving your team, even when it doesn't love you back, even when the threat of leaving and losing and trauma is just forever present. And so it was just like really important for me to have that context in the book because a lot of people talk about how the Bucks saved Yonis, right? Like he got to escape poverty and save his family and have generational wealth. But people really should talk about how Yannis helped save the Bucs. They were in grave danger of leaving the city of Milwaukee, just like the Sonics left Seattle. And here comes this guy that nobody knows about, and he saves the entire franchise. What about his response?

Did you send it? Yeah, did you send it to him before it came out? Yeah, they've had it for a while, but I don't know what he thinks. I hope he likes it. I mean, we've been transparent the whole time, and they had the book pretty much before anyone else. I hope they like it. I hope they feel seen. And I say they, because for me, when I think of it, I'll be honest,

I think of the entire family. It's hard to, like, think about him without thinking about his mom who I talked to or his brothers. And so I hope that they feel seen. Well, you obviously got total cooperation from everybody. Well, I, it's complicated because I did this out of a story that I did for Bleacher Report. And that was the one interview that I talked with Janus. We, you know, talked at the Bucks facility and we had that one-on-one. And you see those quotes in the book.

But then the pandemic happened. And I couldn't talk to him. And then I couldn't talk to him after that. So I am thankful that I got the brothers multiple times and the mother. But I do hope they think it's good and just represents their entire story. You know, one thing I was really conscious of was like, yes, there's traumatic elements, but you don't want the whole book to be trauma, trauma, trauma. I wanted to show the joy and the beauty in this family.

It's a family story. And the fun they had and the laughter. because in a lot of ways, Janice had a really happy childhood. So I just hope that people appreciate both the joy and the hard times. No, I mean, the book can absolutely go from happy to sad, you know, pretty quickly, right? I mean, it's a beautifully paced book as you are. Anybody reads your articles knows that. You know, obviously writing this book and reporting this book during the pandemic,

this is your first book. We have a lot of people that always ask, you know, you know, Chris and I, like, you know, what do you do with writing? like how do you get better at podcasting? What did you learn when it came to writing this book for when you do the next one someday? Whoever it might be about whatever subject it is. Like what did you learn from this experience? Yeah. I mean, I think one thing I always think about when I'm doing like my normal stories for The Ringer is like how do you keep somebody's attention? And we're always talking about that in media, right? Like what is going to sustain

somebody's attention and curiosity? When you're writing 120,000 word book, you have to sustain attention for so many pages. And if there is a lapse or a boring chapter or an anecdote that goes on too long, they're going to quit. I don't know about you, but like life is too short to rally on books that just don't get it within the first 50 pages. So like, I will quit. I don't have a problem saying that. So, you know, I've just learned that it is imperative for me to space my books, knowing that in mind, picturing the reader, where are they going to stop? What is going to intrigue them? How do I not burn all my good stuff up front?

So by the time they get to page 120, they're like, I'm out. I gave it a good go. And I just learned also just on a personal note that I really love this and I want to do this for the rest of my life. With the book coming out, it's really nice to see people holding out the book. But for me, the joy has been like the doing of the book. That was my happiest when I was just reporting and writing it. They call that the process, mirror.

The process. Right? You know, inevitably, when a book comes out, people are going to comb through it, they're going to search through it, they're going to find out, okay, what's controversial, what's salacious. And it just so happens that one of the guys that does not come off looking very good is Jason Kidd. And it is not like you were searching for people to say bad crap about Jason Kidd, but he just got a head coaching job in the NBA. And I think it's fair to say people, even if they just read those excerpts about Jason Kidd and Larry Sanders and about coaching that team, I was surprised the other day. There was some guy posted all the excerpts and talked about, you know, basically, you know, well, here's what a dirtbag Jason Kidd is and whatever. And then a lot of the responses were this is Gen X versus Gen Z.

This is a guy that coached the team hard. You guys are being sissies about it. all this and whatever. And I was very intrigued by kind of here's, all you're doing is describing what happens at some practices. And the way two different generations of people took it was very, very different. I'm interested in your kind of response to that. And then finding people talking about Jason Kidd and then you being on the other end of the phone or Zoom being like, oh, whoa. You know, like, this is not, I'm writing a book about Janus, but like this, this is, this is, this is juicy.

Yeah. So, I mean, in a book, you know, the first guy that ever coached Janus, he's a character. Larry Drew, also a character, the Bucks's first coach, Jason Kidd, a character. Like, these people don't exist in a vacuum where they don't have any effect on Janus. And in order to talk about the impact that they have on Janus, you have to talk about who they are. what their story is. For me, you know, I knew Jason was a part of this, but of course, when I wrote the book, he was not a head coach. So it's getting attention now because of this recent hire, obviously.

I think that obviously these sections don't convey the complexity of Jason Kidd that the book does, that I worked really hard to do. I think both things are true. Jason did have an impact on Janus in the sense of Jason was the first coach to say, you can be a revolutionary big man. I'm going to move you to the point guard, put the ball in your hands, and, you know, I'm going to believe in you and spend hours with you, and I chronicle all of the positive things he did for Janus in the book. However, Jason operated in a very maniacal way. That was manipulative. That was toxic. That was not always popular. It was polarizing.

And I included the Larry Sanders anecdote in there that people picked up, it gives you a window into how he treated players. And I think that is important to talk about when you're talking about somebody that was developing the subject of your book. However, it is a small part of the book. Right. And that's the way the internet works. They're going to find whatever is controversial.

Right. But I hope when people read the book, I hope that they're able to see all of the complexity and understand that Janice would have been successful no matter who was coaching him. You know, like with or without Jason Kidd, Janus would be honest. But it's important to kind of bring in that nuance. And to your point about old school, new school, yeah, I think we posted an excerpt on the ringer and it had all the quotes about some of Jason's advocates saying, well, he's just, it's not mind games, it's just coaching.

And that's that viewpoint of the people that say, well, the younger generations don't know what it's like to be coached, whatever. Of course, like his history of abuse is well documented as well. So I think the book is fair for sure. And I hope people like actually read the book. Right. Because that's it. That's a challenge, right?

The 3,000 retweets on that turns into, you know, 400 sales. That's what we're going to hope for. Manifest, Kevin. Yes. Do you think you're going to still talk to us if this becomes a New York Times bestseller? Or do you think that you will just forget us completely? Am I still in the frame? And act like this interview never happened.

I am turning red as a tomato. And I'm going to say no comment. So look, we got to know it came out Tuesday. What has this been like? I guess you have some level of expectation of what it's going to be like when your book drops. What hasn't been like the last three? days for you. Oh, man. It's been such a whirlwind. I can't believe that, like, people are posting photos of their books. There was this guy in the Philippines that posted his book. And it was like,

I'm in the Philippines. Here it is. And then this other guy was like, I drove to Racine because it was sold out in all these places in Milwaukee. And it just warms my heart. You know, all my life, I've been like this literary nerd where, like, reading books wasn't considered cool. And I was like the weirdo that would read one book a week. And then I see all these people excited to like read a book and go get it. And that just like warms my heart. And you know, I was really nervous. I'll be honest. Like writing a first book is really scary. You're putting yourself out there. It's super vulnerable. It's also like a very famous person. And so it's just been really a nice relief to see like it's out, you know, and dealing with the good and the bad, what people take,

what people don't take. It's a process. But yeah, I can't believe it's only been like two days. I feel like I've been up for like a year. It's pretty wild how everything lined up because I remember the day the book was announced was the day Yanna signed and like you had no idea that that was coming. You didn't know. It's just coincidental that Yanna signs the Supermax, the day you're announced in the book,

coincidental that he goes and drops 50 points and it comes. close out game. How much were you rooting for the bucks, mehers? Be honest. Were you the biggest Bucks fan on the planet? Yes. And I watched every game

at my parents' house, and we all had Buck shirts. And we had like a superstition, like if we don't wear the shirts, they're going to lose. And like, one time I, my shirt was in the wash, and I forgot to bring it over to their house. And they're like, they're going to lose. It's all your fault.

So, yeah, I was living and dying with the bucks. I haven't been so stirred by a team since, you know, my childhood, like, rooting for the Lakers when they were good. And, you know, it's just so funny because all, you mentioned the people in Milwaukee that I talked to for the book. You know, they become friends. You know, I text them like, dude. And that's all I had to say. You know, they'd just be so excited or just a million exclamation points. And it was just, like, fun to see them happy.

That was the thing. I was rooting for the Bucks for sure, but I was like witnessing people that I just got to know as friends have their best day in their entire lives and knowing what they went through as a fan base and the trauma and now they get to be happy. Like that just made me so happy. I think I was in the middle of the chapter about, you know, Bucks fans and how the team could have left while I think it was like the start of the NBA finals. And it's like it makes you understand dear districts. It makes you get it with that mass that sea of people and how it looks like a constant. It was crazy. I wish I could have made it out there. That would have been a good time. Me too. I know it's like the generational player finally stays, right? Like to understand what what it meant for him to sign that supermax. You have to understand how painful it was to see Kareem lose. And there are people that live in the city of the, I said lose, leave. It's been along two days. It's there's people in Milwaukee right now that remember how traumatic that was when Kareem left. And they get to witness this. So it's it's very special. she is miran fader go get the book if you haven't gotten it yet it is yonis the improbable rise of an NBA MVP the book is fantastic mary

we're both big fans of yours and um get on that list i think it's going to get on the last saw those amazon ranks mirren i saw him i see that manifest it teammates manifested well good luck with the book And thanks so much for coming on today. Oh, thank you for having me. This was so fun. Thanks. That is going to do it for another episode of The Mismatch. Kevin, I will talk to you next Tuesday.

I'm looking forward to it, Chris.