The Mismatch - Celtics Up 3-0, Luka’s Shortcomings, and Remembering Jerry West

Episode Date: June 14, 2024

Verno and KOC discuss their frustration with Luka Doncic, who fouled out in Game 3, and the ripple effect his fouling out caused (01:25). Would the Mavs have won if he didn’t foul out? Would a Mavs Game 3 win have completely flipped the series? They also discuss how Jaylen Brown’s impressive improvement should be a blueprint for Luka to get better, give credit to Brad Stevens for building out this type of roster, and share their hope for a Game 5 on Monday night. Next, Verno shares his experience working with Jerry West during his time with the Grizzlies and explains how his tortured Finals losses helped shape the NBA during successful runs in NBA front offices (49:48). Lastly, the guys debate whether JJ Redick will be the next Lakers head coach and get into some brief draft talk (59:14). Got a question for Verno and KOC? Send them an email at [e-mail]! Or you can send the guys a tweet @ChrisVernonShow and @KevinOConnorNBA! The Ringer is committed to responsible gaming. Please visit www.rg-help.com to learn more about the resources and helplines available. Hosts: Chris Vernon and Kevin O’Connor Producer: Jessie Lopez Social: Keith Fujimoto Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

What's up everybody? Justin Varyer here from group chat on The Ringer NBA show. And we want you to come hang out with us for a live podcast recording on Tuesday, June 18th at 8 p.m. Bigwas, Rob Mahoney, and I are kicking off the Ringer residency at the L. Ray Theater in Los Angeles. Get your tickets now at the ringer.com slash events while they last. Hope to see you there. Welcome to The Mishmatch. I'm Chris Varnan. And join him as he does every Thursday night from The Ringer.com is Kevin O'Connor, aka Kevin O'Brien, Kevin O'Cliber. Kevin O Concert, Kevin O Climmer, Kevin O Camry, Kevin O'Blessarian, Kevin O Sphere, Kevin

With the Celtics O'O 3-O, I can see that you and I both have cleaned the egg off of our faces here. Not the great finals that we expected. Now look, teams that are down 3-0 in a series in NBA history are only 0-1.1. 156. So it's not like it's 0 and 200. It's only 0 and 156. And in the finals, it's only 0.14. The Celtics have a commanding three zip lead in the finals now after the

game three win over the Dallas Mavericks. They went up huge over the course of the second and third quarters, then a late 22 to two run. in the fourth quarter for Dallas made it a game, only to have Luca Donchage foul out with a little over four minutes left to go. And that was the end of that. A couple massive plays by Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum. And you now have a three-zip lead for the Boston Celtics.

And this was on the home floor of the Dallas fabrics, which I would imagine that the assumption by Las Vegas, obviously, when they said it was going to be, or the lowest odds were for a Celtics in five series, something that we talked about at great length in our preview pod. And I said, look, man, you and I are going to be in Vegas in July, and we're going to look around, we're going to see all those lights and those hotels and those shows and everything else. And those were not built on winners.

and yet we have so many people, including ourselves, that were duped into believing in the Dallas Mavericks against the team that was the best team in the NBA all season long, and Las Vegas was sitting there telling us, no, no, no, the most likely scenario in this is that it's going to be five games. And even if it is going to be five games, the assumption in that is that Dallas would win game three. that's the one they get, the gentleman's sweep, as it were.

And in fact, last night, Dallas was favored in the game. And then it went up a little bit as a favorite after the Porzingis announcement. But it was all lined up for Dallas to be able to at least get their one win last night. And they didn't even get that. Now, we will see if they are going to rally the troops like Anthony Edwards and the Minnesota Timberwolves did as to not get swept. and have that embarrassment. I don't believe, I think the Warriors over Cabs is the last sweep we've had.

So it's been a while since we've had a sweep. But we will see if they can muster up one win. But big picture stuff, it's 156 and O, bro. It'll happen someday. Maybe. No, it will happen someday. For sure, it will. It'll happen someday, but will it happen this series?

I don't think so with the way in which Boston has handled Dallas, even in that fourth quarter where Dallas cut it to three and made it close. The Celtics let up in that fourth quarter. They were slowing down. They weren't operating as quickly on offense like teams often do. It's like for a short while they just started thinking, oh yeah, we're going to win the finals. We're going to be up 3-0. And that's when the Maverick stormed back, but they dominated that third quarter.

they dominated as soon as obviously Luca was thrown out, but as soon as they did flip the switch back on, at the end of the fourth quarter, they drove their lead back up. The Celtics have just been proven to be an incredibly difficult matchup for the Mavericks with their ability to take away, all the things we've been talking about all series, the lobs, the corner threes,

and also they are just the better overall team. They've proven that. They have better depth. Brown has elevated his play in a significant way this entire season that's carried over into the playoffs and now in the finals. It's very cool for a guy that was ripped even just a year ago at this time for his lack of a left hand that he hits a stepback three going left is one of the big shots in the game. Jalen Brown's improvement, Tatum doing the little things.

The role players, the acquisitions, the Celtics have been proved to be the deepest and best team in the league. I know you say that they were able to get it back on track and they were able to get some buckets down the stretch. But that was after Luca went out. It was after Luca went out, exactly. And after the Jason Kidd timeout in the middle of the run that they had, which was really weird.

Like, what the hell is that? It's one of the great what ifs. And certainly it's something that will torture Mavericks fans forever. If Luca Donchitz doesn't foul out of that game, because it's not as much that Luca was out of that game and how, like that he was doing a bunch of scoring or anything else. you could just feel the air come out of the balloon in that arena. It's like this is the last thing on earth that needs to happen at this moment. They've got more momentum than any team could ever possibly have.

And they are going to flip this thing. And then it stayed at 9390. And there was like maybe three or four empty trips there. And then you had Luca get his fifth on the Jalen Brown one. which is the hook, which that was the bad call. If there was a bad call, because the six foul was a foul. And I have no idea what he was doing, you know, getting in the way of Jalen Brown. It's like the first time he got in the way of Jalen Brown the entire night or, frankly,

got in the way of anybody the entire night. But this is one of the things, like Luca allowed himself to get frustrated and then cost his team. And we saw that take place last night because, Kevin, the craziest thing going back and looking at it is the second foul he picks up in the third quarter is miss a bunny and then just hacks Horford. It's a terrible nothing frustration foul, not playing defense, not affecting anything. That's just I'm pissed off foul, right? I think six, the six foul. That's just a I'm pissed off foul. I am letting my emotions get the best of me.

I'm pissed off. I'm going to try to take a charge here or whatever else. He was angry. Like he was letting it get to him. Like it felt like he was. Yeah. It was just old Luca where like there's been moments this season where Luca has calmed down and Luca has not allowed officiating decisions to get to him.

but it felt like it was getting to him in this game where sometimes like after the game he said he was like complaining about the officiating and he's like I mean we weren't allowed to play physical you know it's like I'm standing like this like his arms are to his side and they're blowing the whistle on me and I get your frustration on some of the fall the cheaper foul calls but you also did have some lazy foul calls as well where you were swiping unnecessarily and that got you into fall trouble in the first place and so I think for luca he needs to really really take a look in the mirror here and say, okay, the referees did screw me on some instances, but what can I control? What are the things I can get better at? And it's very clear that he does need to get into better shape. I'm not blaming him for the fact that Mavericks are down 3-0. He's the reason why they were in the finals. He is the reason why they've been competitive in these games. It would be blowout. All three games would be blowouts if it weren't for the presence of Luca. But to win these games, there's little things that Luca. can do to create a further gap

when he's on the floor instead of the team just being a minus four to be a plus 10, a plus 15 in his minutes and he needs to be better on defense. The Celtics are blown by him of so many different possessions and he needs to be better so he doesn't have to give up some of these cheap files where he can be a lot, a better

defender, if not a lockdown guy. With his size, he should be better. Well, with his performance last night, he deserves all the criticism of coming his way. In the end, this is how we talk about the super star athletes. To whom much is given, much is expected. He is in the MVP race. He is considered a consensus top five player in the league. People said he is better than Yokic before the series. Right.

And so to whom much is given, much is expected. And he is supposed to be their guy. And as the representative of their team, not moving his feet on defense. And then as I mentioned, the Horford first, the second foul, which is the frustration foul. As I told you earlier, Kevin, that's in the third quarter. That means he got four files in less than eight minutes in the fourth quarter with his season on the line. Four fouls and at least two of them are just straight frustration. Even if he got screwed on foul number five.

That happens. That's basketball. That happens. You know what it ever invited me up? I don't know if you recall this, but what was the last big tournament they played in? World Cup? I guess it's World Cup that's like spices between the Olympics or whatever

when he was playing for his home team in the World Cup. He got thrown out of a game there. You remember that? He lost his mind at the officials that got chucked out of a game. It's Slovenia. Like he will let this get the best of him and he was the best player on that team. as well. And it's like, you got to keep your head in these moments. And obviously, him sitting

on that bench for the last 420 after they've gone on a 22 to 2 run is going to be one of the great one-ifs and it's going to torture Dallas fans for a long, long time. And he'll inevitably be back in this position once again. Everybody will say, hopefully he will be better for it. But this was a damn disaster to, in the middle of the middle. of a 22 to 2 run where you're about to flip the game and maybe, maybe flip the series. Yeah. Because now you got a little juice. Now you can, you've, you've come out from this somehow even being down as big as you were

and giving up this whatever, 74 to 49 run or whatever the hell they gave up after their first little burst. You've come out of it unscathed. You can go back to the drawing board. it's only two days between Porzingis, it seems like we ain't seeing him again anyway. And so you might have been able to give yourself a little juice in the series. No kidding. They threw it away.

They threw it away. And I mean, look, it felt like they threw it away after three quarters when Janlon Brown dunked at the end of the third and went out 15. That's why I couldn't believe they mustered up the fourth quarter run. Exactly, right? So it was shocking that it actually happened. and Luca was a big part of that. Everybody was a big part of Dallas was rolling.

And the fact that they threw it away, the way in which they did, like I said, Luca needs to take a long look in the mirror. He needs to see that he's overweight. I know how hard it is to lose weight. I've tried for years. Last year I finally had some success doing it. I know how tough it is to have discipline. But like it's easy once you get in a rhythm and once you develop those habits.

And I think for Luca, the video of Michael Finley taking the beer can out of hands, they know it internally too. After the Western Conference finals, they know that they have to be on top of things with him. But Lucan, more than anything, needs to be on top of things himself in order to have the conditioning in these fourth quarters. Because you look at his numbers in fourth quarters in this series, the way his percentages just fall off a complete and utter cliff. It happens in past postseason series for him as well. It's conditioning, its mindset as well when it comes to the officiating, but I think it's conditioning at the end of the day. And sometimes when you're tired

physically, that's when you lose your mind a little bit as well. So I think for Luca, at the end of the day, it's about starting, it starts really whenever the off season begins, about getting yourself into optimal shape so you can be, I mean, look, I've always said Luca, everybody calls him Luca Magic.

It's a great nickname. I think the alleration of Luca Legend is something that he needs to earn to become Luca legend someday, like Larry Legend, he needs to win. He needs to win on the big stage to become Luca legend. He's not going to ever become that. And the Mavericks may never be back at this stage unless

Luca does take the conditioning seriously as much as he should and needs to. Especially when as much is on him and we will find out you know as time goes on, there's usually one of those moments where it slaps you in the face and then you decide.

And guys grow up. How could this not be it, Chris? It happened. Look, and it happened It happened. I watched it happen with Marcus Holt. First hand. Happened with Yokic just a few years ago. It happened with Yokic. And these guys can,

it can change everything. To your point about the fourth quarters. And look, as much as everybody's talked about, Luca Dantich's defense and the problems that he has had defensively. And the fact that they're, you know, the Celtics offense can just beat him off the dribble at any given moment.

And that kind of sets everything to motion. into motion. I agree completely. They have protected him defensively in a very good way throughout these entire playoffs. And then even in these finals, I will still go back to if you're giving up 107 to that team, that's the number. Like, I think the Dallas defense has been good enough all series. but they, they offense, they have never found a third guy, they only found a second guy for this last game in Kyrie. He has searched for someone else to give them some kind of pop that they haven't had. But honestly, I, if you told me at the beginning of the series that you're going to be giving up 106 and 107, anything under 110, it should be manageable.

I mean, the truth is this, what they scored last night, 98, 99, something like that? Yeah, it was 106. 99. Okay, you're not beating the Celtics scoring 99 points, right? Yeah, and it's obviously asking too much for them to score 108. And I don't want to take anything away from the Celtics defense because the reason the Mavericks offense has been so distraught, even though I think their defense has been good enough to be able to get them wins against Dallas or Boston, despite Luca being as bad as he has, is Boston's defense has been absolutely incredible. And you go up and down the list last night, it took a ton

of shots for Luca to get what he got and a ton of shots for Kyrie to get what he got. And you think about all those other players. Who, I mean, who have we talked about one time during this series? Have we talked about Gafford? No. Lively? No. No, PJ Washington, no. Derek Jones Jr., no. Jones got benched last night. Yeah, Tim Hardaway Jr., they dusted him off. Tim Hart.

I'll tell you what. How did Jason Kigg go to Tim Hardaway as much as he did last night? I mean, he was their third leading score during the year. He's just searching. But he's been horrible for months. And Dante X him they tried. They tried Kleba. But Hardaway last night, who was a complete and under zero throw at the entire postseason,

a complete and utter zero in the first three quarters of the game, I can't believe kid went to him as the guy to replace Luca down the stretch of the game. I was thinking when Luca got thrown out, I was like, hmm, maybe they'll put a defensive-oriented guy in the game. Maybe they'll be better defensively without Luca and Kyrie will go toe-to-to-toe with Boston down the stretch and lead them to victory. They cut up to one. Yep.

And then from there, Boston rolled. But instead he put Hardaway out there, who throughout the game was taking some, unwarranted shots, offering absolutely nothing as a defender, as a rebounder, as a playmaker. He was a negative for the Mavericks, all playoffs and in game three when they needed him most. I'm just surprised Kid went to him in that game as much as he did. He played nearly 20 minutes. And here's the crazy thing about that. I don't get it. It was a decision that quite literally never has to be made.

I read an article this morning that said that in 400. 101 regular season games or whatever it was. I think it was 400 regular season games and 47 playoff games that Lucas played in. You want to take a guess? How many times do you think he's fouled out of a game? Three, four. Twice.

Twice. Wow. So it is a decision that quite literally has never, I mean, it's just never, that's how rare that was for him to foul out of a game last night, much less a finals game last. night that took place.

And, you know, we talk about those other guys, and we always know that during these series, the other guys, one series, like we were talking about lively, big time, last series, and how great he was on both ends against Minnesota, against Oklahoma City. One night we're talking about PJ Washington. The next night we're talking about Derek Jones, Jr. And we haven't talked about any of those guys. And then on the other side, you had Pritchard giving you men. minutes last night. You had Hauser giving you minutes last night. And then in the most important

role, which is what are we going to do without Porzingis? My guy, Xavier Tillman, gets his chance and gives him 11 minutes, blocks a couple shots, has a great dish to Jalen Brown on a cut, knocked down a three and the bench explodes. And I was so happy for him. Obviously, I know Tillman very well. I've covered his entire career up to this year when he got traded to the Celtics at the deadline. Great guy, great teammate, great role player who totally understands what he is and where he fits into the context of the league. And just to give a little to expand on this a little bit, I was so fascinated.

that last night, even Joe Missoula brought up that they had played it. He went and Memphis had played against Dallas several times over his tenure. And he had a lot of experience against Dallas. And they were kind of defending them the same kind of way that Memphis had. And I will tell you, the last night of hope of the Memphis Grizzly season this year, one of their best games of the year was in January. They played against Dallas. Dallas. Marcus Smart hit like seven threes and then on one of the follow-throughs broke his finger and we

never saw him play again. And then soon after Bain got injured and then the whole thing just completely fell apart because Jah had already been injured. But that night, Tillman just destroyed the Mavericks. He's unbelievable. He had like 14 and 11 and was great. And it was kind of like the last great Tillman night, whatever. So it's, it's kind of odd that it was against this same Mavericks team. And so there he is, and he gets the chance. And he's been on ice throughout basically the whole playoffs. I mean, I think they said last night that's his first three of the playoffs. And he comes in and totally unafraid and filled in about as ably as you possibly could, considering they had lost the guy who had been their most devastating advantage.

thus far. He's never going to be Chris S. Forsyngas, but he let them not get smoked in those minutes. He was awesome. I mean, he hit the corner three that got the whole bench fired up and everybody's excited about it. But he also had two blocks on Luca. He defended him really well. And Tillman is such a good switch defender. He's so versatile.

Like he's big and burly. He doesn't look like a guy who can move his feet on the perimeter. But he did a great job staying in front of Luca. Boston wasn't even really showing help towards Luca on both blocks, and he just, you know, he got a fingertip on the ball. I think it was like two floater layups, kind of like away from the rim by Luca, and that's what Tillman does.

And you've got to also credit Brad Stevens for the types of players that he targeted. Think about it. Like the big names, Chris Staps, Porzingis, Drew Holiday, Derek White. Everybody's talked about them. But Sam Houser, undrafted free agent,

knockdown shooter, who's improved defensively. He gets size at 6'9. He's big. He's not like a great defender, but he's serviceable. And then Xavier Tillman at this deadline as well as that potential replacement for if Horford's out, it's to be the versatile guy or if Porzinger's out, just to be another body. And he came through in the biggest game of the season for the Celtics in game three.

And I think Stevens deserves, I mean, a hell of a lot of credit for those little acquisitions that he sprinkled into this roster to give the Celtics depth and versatility off their bench, on top of obviously the big name acquisitions he made ever since he took over for Danny Aange. Because I think they said last night, like Tillman, Tillman just made his first three of the entire NBA playoffs or whatever, right? Because it was pretty shocking that he was able to drop that down.

And yet you look and you're like, look at the three point totals for all of the Mavericks and throughout this series. How is Xavier Tillman playing an 11 minutes comes in the game and he's hitting more threes than anybody you got? Dude. It's crazy. Isn't that crazy?

I mean, I know guys caught up with him with threes like Josh Green ended up hitting a three and like all that. But there was a point in the game where Tillman had more threes combined than like seven Mavs role players. Crazy. How? Unbelievable. How? And I think for the Dallas side, like when you compare the role players, it's pretty clear. Like for kid to go with Tim Hardaway over Derek Jones Jr., it shows to me that.

that internally they know that Jones's confidence is gone. Like the way he's missed some wide open shots. You can't swing it over to him because he's not, he's not really a guy that's going to take you off the dribble. And if he's not going to shoot the three, now what? Yeah, what are we doing? Exactly. Like, I think he had a play in that first half where he had an open three

and he drove instead. And it's like, this guy's confidence is dead. It's gone. It's completely gone. And like you look at the Mavs role players. It's like Josh Green is really the one guy that you feel. like is, you know, flying around the floor, hustling, making the right pass. He hit a three last night, but X-M, I know he had the big dunk, but he's just okay.

I could play anybody in the league 20-something minutes and they could give me the production Josh Green gave me last night. Sure. Yeah, a lot of guys could do with Josh Green did. It's not like he was outstanding, but I'm like, it's a low bar when you compare it to what. What is it three? I think he scored three points. Yes.

Oh, Jesus. It's a low. I mean, well, he had more points. them bind than Cleba Hardaway and Jones. I know. No. I could have given you as many points as Tim Hardaway. I know you might have been able to hit an open three. It's possible.

I doubt it. I doubt it too. I know. Yeah, I'd be scared. But in fairness, I'm not like a 15-year NBA vet. Yeah, you're not a veteran. No. Man, I mean, how crazy... No, they didn't get anything out of their guys. How crazy is it, though, for

for Dallas? Like, you got second round versus O KC, PJ Washington shoots over 50% from three. The whole playoffs, Derek Jones, shoots 40 plus percent from three, and your role players are just kicking ass, and it feels like the team is just operating in the way that you envisioned it. And then Boston's defense just completely takes it all away. And that's where I think credit is due, you know,

more than anything is the Boston defense has just completely taken away everything the Mavericks like to do. This is why I always talk about getting me. your scars and getting the reps, right? And that you end up becoming so much better for it. And you're hearing this over and over again from Boston whenever they talk about kind of. It's being in those situations. And as we always say, right, you get to the highest level.

And we even do this in football. And they say, look, here's who we're going to play against. and this quarterback, they say, all right, that throw, that throw, that throw, and that throw. Those are four throws he likes to make the most. We're taking those away. So now we're going to make him do something else. Or we're going to keep this guy in the pocket because he likes to make plays outside the pocket. And usually those guys, they got to see it maybe a couple times before they end up getting over the hump.

and the same is true in basketball, right? I said Anthony Edwards is going to be so much better for what he had to go through throughout these playoffs. And I have seen it firsthand with all manner of players over the years because the first time through now, it's like if you're PJ Washington and you're Derek Jones Jr. And you're all these guys, you're like, all right, they took away the thing that I am good at. Now what? And like you were talking about to wrap it back to the beginning of the show, this is what Jalen Brown has done.

Year after year after year, it is seeing something different. It is taking something away. It is forced improvement. The players that are worth their salt are going to go back to the lab and they're going to say, this is what ruined me last year. So this year, it's going to be. different because now when this, when they do this, I'm doing this. When they do this, I'm doing this. When I face this defense, but the first time you go through it and sometimes it might be the

finals level where a team scouts you out. And so they got to see how Dallas had success for the first three rounds. And then they decided, you know that all that success you had? You're not doing that. those lobs to the rim, they're not existing anymore. Those guys that you're throwing out to for open threes because somebody bum rushed you because we sent two, we're not doing it. You're going to score one-on-one, score one-on-one. Good luck to you. But PJ Washington, you better figure out another way to score because your ass doesn't get to stand in the corner and just shoot fish in a barrel. Like, that's not happening.

And, you know, I kick myself over and over because I even brought this up to you in the pre-year. review pod. The one thing we knew Boston was great at defending lobs, and we knew they were great at defending corner threes, and is that just going to be the antidote? And the truth is, it has been. It has been. Because none of those guys can do jack shit once you take that stuff away. And that's what being in the playoffs is.

They're going to go back home this off season. and the ones that are worth their weight are going to work all offseason to make themselves a more dangerous offensive player that can bring something else to the table because it's been scouted out what all these guys do

and you've got to be so exceptional once you get to this level you've got to be truly exceptional to be great and that's what makes me just over the moon for Brown because he has been great, great. After a really good finals where he was really good against the Warriors, but then a super disappointment last year against Miami.

I mean, even with the Warriors final, he had five turnovers in the final two games in each game. And then obviously last year against Miami, he had the eight turnovers in the game seven. And that's, you know, it was some disastrous turnovers of a really bad game seven. for him against the heat. But what did he work on? He improved significantly as a ball handler, as a decision maker, playing within the flow of the offense. He just feels like he plays such a more calm game. It truly is like he's 27 years old. You talk about that number all the time.

I know. I got. What a lot of great players win their first finals. And it just feels like he, he's just in that zone. All year. Their best player, according to me and Jason Kid. and likely to the finals MVP voters as well. But I think for Jaylen as well, it's not just the offensive development, but the way in which he's just made life on Luca, he's been the primary defender on Luca in this series, but also at the times he's defended Kyrie as well.

He has been completely locked in on defense. This is a guy earlier in his career in college and in high school. He would be a luf off ball at defense sometimes. Like you would look at his body, 6-6, long arms, great athlete. How is this guy not a lockdown defender? He's good sometimes, and other times he's just forgettable. Well, right now he's all defensive team caliber player on that end of the floor.

And it's just so cool to watch. It shows the importance of being patient with the Vel in the Vel-Met as well. Because a year ago, I was talking about how they should think about splitting up, Jaylon and Jason. Oh, people have been talking about it. For sure. Everybody's been talking about it and brought it up. But, look, it's a great.

It's actually great for the NBA. It's a great story. It is. It's great for the NBA also that because people love getting to root for players for a long time. And it feels like we are now headed towards more of an era, especially with the way they've aligned it with the amount you can get paid. And how hard to trade players making that much money. And how punitive it is for you to sign those players or to add those players. that aren't necessarily the homegrown ones.

And so you see all these teams are probably only going to have. Once the player gets amazing and you get multiple of these players, you probably talk at two, three-year windows because of the way they've done this second apron. You're just not going to be able to afford it. It's just something they're going to have to think about as time goes on. Because what you don't want is teams de-incentivized in terms of draft drafting great and then they can't hold on to the players that they were able to draft and develop. And now it's our fault that Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum became all NBA.

And so now I can't afford a rest of a roster. And if I do afford a rest of a roster, then I'm going to lose a draft pick in seven years and all this crap. So there's got to be some figuring out probably. But I love the idea that they stuck with it and it paid off. and that they were patient with it. Despite we live in an impatient world, I do remember us doing the finals with Boston and the Warriors. And I kept saying that's where really all that 27 stuff came up.

I said, look, now you got to remember, here's what Tatum is, here's what Brown is, and even the best of the best, they usually don't win. I don't know why it is, whether it's maturity, whether it's the reps, whether it's the experience, whatever the case may be. and maybe this will be so with Luca as well. But whether it was Jordan, whether it was LeBron, whether it was Duran, whether it was Curry, whether it was Shaq, whether it, I mean, I could go on and on and on forever.

They were all 27 or older when they won their first title. And those are all-time greats, Durant, all-time greats when they first won. And here the, we're finally to the moment where the two Js are about that age. Tatum 26, Brown 27. And it's hitting. You know what I mean? Yeah. And Brown has been unblooded at 38 and 8 on a, you know, massive game that really swung the series and hitting just huge shot after huge shot throughout these playoffs.

I mean, he hit it against Indiana, did it twice against Indiana. we did pods after both of those and then he did it with one minute left to go and they're up by two that pull-up jumper that he had last night it ended the game for all intents of purposes yep going left and then goes and every possession

is battling his ass off on defense just a bonafide I tweeted last night that guy's a fighter now this guy was ready to win real winner. And you see him in the huddle? He's like gotten a voice. You know, Marcus Smart left and

everybody was like, what's going to happen with that void? That was Jaylor Brown. That was one of the keys. We talked about it at the time of the trade, the leadership void without Marcus Smart, how he was the guy for so many years there. Who's going to stop it? Yes. Who would provide that leadership

presence? And it happened in multiple ways. Drew Holliday as a leader by example. Like, he's a quieter. guy speaks up when he needs to, but he is a leader. And he'd also die on the court rather than lose. Oh my God, no kidding. He's amazing. He flies for every rebound. Oh, my God. He's

incredible. His nose for the ball was outstanding. Like, I remember Tommy Hineson used to say about Leon Powe. He used to say like, Leon Powe, like, oh, he can find the blue sky. The way he would describe, he knows how to find the blue sky. And like, Drew Holliday makes me think about

Tommy Hineson how he used to say that about Leon Poe. He just has a way. And And Jalen Brown has been to become one of the more vocal guys. And that's how many Tommy points would Drew Holiday have had this year? Oh, he probably would have led the team for sure. Shattered a record. He's a dog too. I know.

Yeah. Oh, no. They were, look, they have been, I don't want to take anything away from them in this. Because they have been absolutely fantastic. And they have made life hell on that.

That Dallas offense has been crap because of them. not just by happenstance. No, they've been outstanding, man. I mean, the entire team on defense has been Horford. Horford after, you know, having some iffy games in the playoffs earlier, he's been great in this series. You know, Derek White, you get to defend him. You got him defending, like, PJ Washington.

That's one of the things for Dallas. It's like you got PJ Washington. You got, you know, Derek lively and Daniel Gafford. These guys aren't beating these. smaller players with their size. Has Dallas at one time tried to post PJ Washington on Derek White? Have they, like, can lively post up? Can Gafford post up?

The answer is no. So Dallas hasn't, or the players have not provided the skills in order for Dallas to use their size to an advantage. Where like boss, that's part of why Boston has been able to turn it off with the lobs and take away the corner threes because Dallas doesn't have that diversity. of skills on offense that you see with the Celtics, where everybody can dribble, shoot, pass. It's always five guys on the floor that can do that at one time.

And again, that's a credit to Joe Missoula for making it work with the players that he has and optimizing the offensive pieces, but also the vision of Brad Stevens, because this is the way he ran his teams when he was coaching the Celtics. It's just, you know, like X's and O's aren't better than, you know, Jimmy's and Joe's, right?

And now he's put the roster together that has allowed him to play a more analytically friendly style, but also sticks true to his principles with, you know, and everybody eats ball sharing offense. It's like I said to you a couple of weeks ago about the Celtics. The Jay Crowder quote from years ago, we're one superstar. That's what it feels like the Celtics team embraces. And it's just they so happen to have a ton of, you know, all-star caliber players playing on their team. And again, like Stevens, Stevens is built on what Danny Ains, you know, constructed with Jalen Brown, Jason Tatum, all the great picks that he made over the years that gave Stevens a foundation full of assets in order to build. But just because you have a great foundation, it doesn't mean you're going to finish the job.

And that's exactly what Brad Stevens has done. And obviously, they have one more win to go. I don't want to annoy them too early. But we might as well talk about it since we don't have a show again until next Monday night. but yeah Brad Stevens man he's done a sensational job how amazing is it to go from a college coach to a NBA head coach for years

and then become immediately one of the best GMs in basketball I would say that at least I mean as just basketball fans Dallas winning a couple of games in this and at least making the thing interesting because everybody

now. It's like the thing is over. I mean, because... I mean, this postseason has sucked. It's kind of all brand. It hasn't been many great series. This has been good for Celtics fans. But nobody else. Nobody else, because this is a disaster.

You just want it to be competitive. You want it to be competitive. And honestly, you look back and you go, those last, really, those two games, because Dallas at least they had, what they, I guess they had it at eight. or something like that. And then they got runoff in game two.

And then kind of had the got it to five and then the PJ Washington thing, right? So at least that kind of set up for game three. And as I said, you'll be tortured forever if you're a Mavericks fan. Like what would have happened? Would the tsunami have continued? You know, if Luca doesn't get thrown out of that game and the whole air goes out of the balloon or not? And also, I think as an NBA fan, anybody watching it, it's like, it's a real sliding doors moment, right? Like, would we have gotten a competitive NBA finals if he doesn't get thrown out of that game?

Yeah. And that's why everybody's so mad at Luca. Because it's like, bro, this is just irresponsible. Yeah. You know, you cost us all. We at least wanted to see what would have happened. I know. What would have changed?

Would have changed the entire feeling going. into Friday's game four because it'd be 2-1 and you'd feel like Dallas would have a shot. You feel like even if Dallas wins, who cares? Yes, I know. They would have to win then and Monday for then anybody to perk up in the least.

Do you think Boston finishes the series on game four Friday? I think it's really hard to I think it's hard to do, I think it's hard to sweep somebody and I think it's hard to muster up the amount of motivation that it takes to you're going home and you could and you can win the thing at home.

This is why we so see a lot. We see a lot more four ones than we do four zips. Yeah, it's better to win at home too. I always like when teams win at home instead. I always do. It's just better in front of your home fans. Well, and also, I mean, look, that's it. To me, I would be surprised if Boston just.

comes out smoking going for the kill. I don't know. But this could be the game where they shoot like 48% from 3. Could be. Could be. Could be. They just shoot the leather off the ball. We're going to find out about Luca and we're going to find out about Dallas in game three.

I agree. I think that's the key thing. Like we're going to find out a lot about Luca. Is this the game where Luca, like is this his, you know, LeBron game six? We thought that was going to be game three. We did. Exactly. And it wasn't. And that's why I think he's just not there physically. I just don't think it's conditioning. I know he's hurt. He's dealing with a chest thing, a knee injury, whatever else. That's not an excuse for the behavior at the end of the game. And he also looks much less hurt on offense than he does on defense. Yeah, I know. Yeah, I think for the Boston side of things, like I was just thinking about this last night when it comes like, well, what's game four going to look like?

game six Celtics lakers 08 finals where they just completely smoke the lakers in game six at home they're up like 30 plus points of the third quarter Doc Rivers Gatorade shower from Paul Pierce Boston's up big the whole fourth quarter is like a big Gino time celebration and

like it's not like it's not unheard of to have blowouts and close out games the Celtics have experienced that themselves within the last 20 years so I think for for Boston and this game game four. This might be the game where they just completely dominate from three and it's over by the middle of the third quarter.

The first like six to eight minutes of that game last night, it felt like Dallas was going to smoke them. Boston did great to take those punches. They were resilient. Oh my God. And they've folded in the past. Because Kyrie has like double digits already like quick. And the crowd's going bonkers. And they're getting run out. And then you looked up at the end of the quarter. It was like 31.30. and it's like, what?

Like, oh, God, if you didn't run them out then, you're in a world of crap. And then obviously, they were in a world of crap because quarters two and three were just downright dominant by Boston. Right. And if it wasn't, you know, of course, they have, they've been, they've been known to play with their food, as they say. And they did. And they let Dallas into two of these games that should, they had no. business being involved in, right? Like Dallas had no business being involved in game two and had no business being involved

in game three, given how bad they were getting run out and how dejected they were. You and I both tweeted about it. The end of that third quarter, when you had the banked Derek White three, followed by Jalen Brown, and that replay is disgusting, he's driving down the middle. Luca's out of the way This guy's out of the way Everybody, it's like they parted the Red Sea for him to go

Have this highlight dunk And it's like, oh, these dudes are done And somehow They weren't I still, it's still crazy I know, I know And again, And that's why I like you

But they were down 15 Going into the fourth Just like That same thing in game two They were getting their ass kick Going into the fourth And it's like, it's too little

too late at this point, bro. What are you doing now? You muster up these runs just because they kind of start playing with their food a little bit. It's odd. Because they were getting drilled. They could have gotten drilled in two and three. Because they were halfway to get into smoke completely. They had these late, like crazy-ass fourth quarter runs that even made them competitive.

I hope they get at least one just so we get at least. some drama. You know? I mean, it's not much drama. No, it is. Entering a game on Monday night. It stinks. But I sure would love us to have a game five to react to on Monday because it's either

we get to talk about the game, the championship that had just occurred if Boston wins on Monday, if it does go to a game five, or if the Mavericks were to extend this to a game six, winning two in a row, suddenly the series would take on a completely different shape. I'm trying to think back. We had Philly, New York was amazing. And Minnesota, Denver was crazy interesting. And then first round, Cavs Magic went seven.

Come on. That thing was on Animal Planet. I'm just saying. I'm just saying it went seven. That's all. Remember? I couldn't even find the game story on NBA.com. It was an exciting game seven.

That's all. But no, you're right. The playoffs have not been great. And so it would be nice if we had, you know, something interesting here. And I'll tell you what, Boston sports fans know all about 3-0 leads. They've been on both sides of 3-0 leads. The Bruins have been on both sides of blown 3-0 leads. The Red Sox, of course, infamously had the 3-0 comeback against the New York Yankees in the ALCS back in 0-4,

then swept the Cardinals in the World Series. Eight wins in October. so like Boston sports fans know it's not over until it's over. And I think that Missoula the way I guess he's showing them UFC fights, he should also show them you know, Boston sports history

close it out and get it over with. I think I think I think that's going to win a game. Luca cannot go out like that big of a punk. He just can't, man. Maybe he does. Maybe this is part of his story. This could be part of his story.

It's a gross one. It is a gross chapter in his story. But then if this happens, this is where things turn. I mean, you got Brian Windhorst on TV. Maybe it's the origin story of when he becomes the guy that wins rattles off five straight titles because he. Exactly. I mean, like I said, you got Brian Windhorst on TV calling a Luke of Fat.

That was amazing. Everybody putting like, you know, Kendrick Lamar's Meet the Grams in the background and Nas's ether and all these like sound clips behind it. It was hilarious. Yeah. Wendy went out. The winner's locker room is over there. It was so good. And if Luca ever wants to be over there,

where the winners are, I was like, oh, shit. I know, I know. But like you said, this could be the turn. Yeah. Luca may need to lose like this in order to realize the things that he needs to do to enter the winner's tunnel.

Right? This could be the turning point for him. You never know. He's not going to drop 20 pounds. get into better shape by game four. But by next season, he can. And he should. And that's what he needs to do.

Yeah, then you get the documentary. I never wanted to feel that pain again. He's the worst pain I ever felt in my life. Me getting swept in the finals, how did I ever let that happen? That was the turning point in my career with the documentary years from now when he is drinking and eating a lot again. Yeah, right.

Oh, there's no question. He is going to be a 350-pound retired player. No way around it. The Joker's showing up like Antoine Walker for sure. For sure. I mean. Yeah. No doubt.

I do want to speak on this before we get out of here. We lost an absolute titan of the sport this week, Jerry West. It was one of my great honors to get to cover a Jerry West-led franchise very young in my career. So when the Grizzlies moved to Memphis, they had this very spaced out front office. There was Billy King or a Billy Knight and there was Billy Knight and Dick Versace was around there. And then the owner at the time, Michael Heisley, he was buddies with Chuck Daly. And so Chuck Daly would be around and would advise things. And then there was the guy who was in charge of scouts.

and the guy that was in charge of player personnel, and it was all kind of jumbled. And this is always, always a hallmark of the bad franchises. One of the things we've talked about recently is like Detroit, right? And kind of how that, and it's like too many cooks in the kitchen. And one of the things that people have said about even the Lakers and this whole job is, it's like, okay, here's the owner, but who do I really answer to? Like, who's got the juice?

Is it Linda Rambis? Is it Kurt Rambis? Is it Ralph Polinka? Is it this president of business ops? Is it genie? Is it like, right? And so it's like kind of all spread out. And there's always with those kind of, usually a team that has a unified like one decision

maker, one leader. And everybody kind of knows that's the guy who's in charge. That's always better than there being a bunch of people. people and you're not really knowing who's got the juice or who's got the owner's ear. And so it's kind of, you know, it's a marabund franchise that had all of these different whatever. And somehow, some way, Michael Heisley convinced Cherry West to come take over as the president in Memphis. My studio that I use my, that I do my local show in now was his old office back in the day.

And he brought instant credibility to the franchise. and also flip them around into a winner, like, rather quickly. And they never won on the biggest level. But they did win 50 games, and they did, QB. Brown did win coach of the year. And they did go to the playoffs three straight years. They were never even able to get a win in the playoffs. They were 0 and 12.

But the fact that you were the smallest market in the NBA, but you had Jerry West and you had a winning team, like enabled that franchise to become what it ended up becoming, which is a franchise that's been very healthy, has a rabid fan base, ended up making the playoffs again for seven straight years, and has this super strong connection to the city. Because if you move to a city and then it's just crap and crap and crap,

the NBA would not be in Memphis. End of story. It just wouldn't. And he brought like the credibility and built that out at the beginning. And I was around him quite a bit during those early years. And he was always good to me. I always was absolutely amazed at how insanely competitive he was. Like you figure he'd been around a long time.

And he knows this isn't the Lakers and he ain't got Kobe and Shaq. But, I mean, he's the kind of guy that cannot watch the games. Like, that's how much it just drives him crazy to lose. And he gave it everything he had, obviously. And then, you know, I think that he takes losing so hard. That's what I always thought. every time around. The other thing I told you is like this is,

he's 60 or 70 something years old at the time. Probably, yeah, maybe almost 70. I tell you, well, there was a day of practice. They were all done. And the ball rolled out on the court. That joker is in like loafers. I'm saying, Kevin, when I tell you, this dude did not miss.

Picked up a basketball and just started to shoot. Auto. Automatic. He's like 70 years old, bro. And I'm like sitting there like, holy, this is crazy. 80 plus percent guy from the free throw line in his career. He'd be a knock down three-point shooter he played today. I'm like, this dude probably hadn't touched a basketball in 20 years.

He bit that thing of it. What? What? I'm like, this is crazy. Anyways, he, but anyway, he took losing so hard. And one of the things I've heard everybody talk about how, what a titan he was for the sport and how great he was as a player and then obviously what he built with the Lakers

and then working with the clippers and with the Warriors before that one of the things that I have not heard mention a lot that I have believed to be true and this is from the time that I was around and then listening to him post he was absolutely tortured by his losing in the finals. he said this many times

like the kind of thing like wanted to give up basketball couldn't sleep at night still to this day not this day because as he's passed away but every day he thinks about it

and it tortured him to lose and he lost whatever eight straight finals or whatever the hell it was he truly changed the NBA whether you want to say it's for better or worse but these star players leaving make no more

mistake. He was the, he's the one talking to Kevin Durant. He's the one talking to those guys that went to the Lakers. He's the one talking to Paul George, Kauai Leonard. And he'd always tell the same story, because I've heard it before. He'd always sit these star players down. And he said, I wish, I don't be me. Don't live your life with 50 years of regret, because that's what I did. I stayed. I was loyal. I didn't go team up with anybody else awesome. And it haunts me every day of my life.

What could have been with my career. And that Joker sits in a room with a star and they walk out and they're like, shit, I don't want to be this guy. And he's saying that as somebody who did win one. Did it. He did it. He did it. He did it. But he knows he could have won more.

Oh, yeah. If I would have gone, if I could do it over, I'd do it over a hundred times out of a hundred times. Don't be me. Don't sit there. And so if you want to, look, I'm not blaming it for Kevin Durant going to the Warriors, but I promise you he did this speech to them. I mean, he walked into the room versus Kelly Olenic. That's right. For the Boston Celtics during those KD meetings of the Hamptons.

Yes. And he really told that story. Maybe Kevin Durant should have listened to Tom Bernie in that meeting. But that's a different story for another day. Look, he really shaped the future of the NBA with his tortured stories. He really did. Because he meant that. And I don't, look, I had no problem with him telling his story.

But, like, that's what I tell you. It's the most competitive guy you could ever imagine. And it just, like, always was his thing that, like, don't be me. I sit there and think about this every day of my life and I will to the day I die. Should I have done it different? Here's your chance to do it different. Like, you know, by time, every great player leaves the room and they're like, I don't want to sit around a 50 years. I should have won more titles.

Like, I want to go team up with somebody good. And then they do, right? Yeah. I mean, there's nothing, there's nothing greater than winning a championship. with the team and he did it he did it he finally was able to do it yeah at joker won a finals MVP without winning

that's how good he was yeah um and the last thing is jj reddick you know i told this story about jerry west and about how like a unified front office and knowing who's in charge is always kind of the easiest path to success uh usually that is usually

people usually know who's in charge. And I do think that that probably got to be a portion of why Dan Hurley might have gotten a little spooked by that job, whether or not he was serious about that. That's another debate. Here's what we know. Shaf Sharani has said that they wanted JJ Reddick a long time ago. I think everybody knows. LeBron James probably wants J.J. Reddick to be their head coach. you had just written an article this week about,

hey, where's this going to go from here with LeBron? They got turned out by Dan Hurley. Now what's going to happen with LeBron? Don't you think that if the story that's out there just comes to pass and they do hire JJ Reddick, that he and his podcast host are just going to be walking hand in hand and happy Los Angeles next year,

at least until it all goes south? Probably, yeah, I would think so. I'd be surprised that's not the case. You think they'll still do mind of the game? Yeah, I think they'll still do some content. That'd be my prediction. I don't think I don't think JJ is going to give that up entirely. I think he does something maybe once a month.

That be my prediction. You think so? Once a month instead of weekly. That be my prediction. Do you think we're ever going to be at the time where, I mean, I guess Doc Rivers is just on with Bill Simmons are the NBA finals and he's the current head coach of the Milwaukee Bucks? Do you think we will move?

Listen on my. morning walk. I love Doc up. For some reason, I love Bill and Doc. It's just a good combination. Do you think that we, do you think we're going to look up one day and that there are going to be coaching coaches, like, no, content creators? No, I don't. I don't. You know, Doug Gottlieb is saying he's still going to do his radio show while coaching the, I mean, well, here's the thing. I mean, Like Coach K had a weekly, weekly radio show throughout his coaching career. Well, they all do.

I know they all. They all have a coach show. But like that's Coach K. Yeah. And like he can do it for an hour a week, two hours a week, whatever it is. So it's not like it's not being done.

That's why I think JJ will do it. He will do it. I'd be surprised if he didn't do it. There's no way he's going to give up. Like JJ, I like JJ. I like JJ, like, is a good dude. He does. have a big ego. He does have kind of

like a, I'm changing sports media complex, and he is in some ways, but there's always been like X's and O's content, but doing it on that stage where you're, you know, a broadcaster, you're on first take and all that stuff. You are doing something different to a mainstream audience and is

typically viewing and seeing more debates and stuff like that, right? I don't think JJ would want to give that up. He's going to want both. And clearly... In fairness to JJ, he didn't say I don't think he ever said that people haven't produced the X's and O's content. I think he would probably tell you nobody has produced X's and O's content that anybody consumes. At a high level.

I think that's what he's. Sure. Totally. That's what he thinks. And it's not true. Exes and O's content has always been a thing. It's just, you know, it's always been a thing. It's just he's bringing into a more, a broader audience with his podcast.

He's famous. He is. He's JJ Rack. He's been famous for 25 years. He's been hated. He's being loved ever since he was at Duke. So I think for JJ. He ain't doing podcast anymore.

He's the Lakers coach. I bet she he is. I bet she he is. I bet she he does one a month. One a month. No way. And if he has to give it up, he'll give it up. But I think, I bet she he does one a month.

Him in LeBron. No way. If LeBron stays. But I don't think, Bill Plasky would have a field. day with that day would be. I know. The podcaster needs to learn how to call time out.

I mean, maybe the guy needs to spend less time podcasting and more time scouting the clippers. Here's the thing. Like I said, did people say that about Coach K? They say it about all these other coaches. Those are different.

Those are usually in the contract. Sanctioned coaches shows. Yeah, but they're still doing a show. I get it. But that's part of that job. Like Nick Sabin did a weekly show. and every college coach does a show.

NBA coaches do not. They know they don't. I don't know of any coaches show in the NBA. But I know. I don't either. But all I'm saying is other coaches have done it. Not NBA coaches, but why can't JJ?

Why can't he take it? If his producers, if his producers, you know, prepare him, you know, with some interview questions, if that's what it is, or topics and all that, why can't JJ step into a room for two hours a month? You think our boy Tommy all?

is going to be an assistant coach? I think Tommy produced the Barbershop show. The shop. LeBron does. Yeah, the shop. Yeah, I think Tommy's one of the producers on that. Tommy Alters everywhere. He's with all these celebrities. He's with

celebrities, he's politicians. I don't know. I don't know what Tommy is. And he's probably going to be in a Lakers assistant. He's going to have to fill out of staff. Maybe he'll be like JJ's PR guy or something like that on staff. Maybe. Well, we'll see if JJ even gets the gig. Does JJ want the gig?

I think he's getting the gig too. Why would he say no to the Lakers? There's never going to be a better opportunity for you. And JJ is such a competitor. People say, why would he give up the comfort and the ease of sports media? He's friends with LeBron. Like, literally friends. Yes.

And they clearly have good chemistry and camaraderie together. They do. Yeah, so like you're thinking this guy's not going to get me fired? Well, for now. But he might retire before he gets you fired. Yeah, maybe so. I mean, I think I think JJ has a chance to be a really good coach. Of course he does.

We'll save that discussion. He's a super smart basketball guy. He is. He's incredibly bright. He's incredibly competitive, very thoughtful, meticulous. I think there's like a lot of qualities that JJ has that would make him a great head coach. And now he needs to connect with his players. He needs to be able to call up good plays and, you know, and pressures on and clutch moments of games.

There's like a lot of other factors aside from these human. qualities we're talking about, but he's been successful at everything he set his mind to throughout his entire life. And so much, look, the big thing, there's nothing basketball-wise that I think that JJ Redick probably can't do. Honestly, I agree. I'm being serious about this. I agree. Being a head coach is so much about being a politician and about being able to deal with the media as well. That's the question with him. And I'm talking about inner office politics. Yes, exactly. Managing people and personalities.

That's where JJ, I mean, we'll see. You just don't get to be the basketball coach and just worry about basketball. You end up having to be a people pleaser and you have to end up, you know, it's an all-encompassing job for sure. It's much more than all the qualities and the X's and O's that we're talking about. It's all that political stuff. And every basketball coach only wants to coach basketball, and they don't want to be given all the data from the nerds and they don't want to be given. Well, JJ's different there.

JJ's different there. He doesn't brace numbers and also he likes. He is until it comes time that they tell him he needs to not be playing Tarin Prince and he needs to be playing Ruey Hachamura, but he doesn't think Rui Hachamura is worth I'm telling you, all of these guys.

I've dealt with all of them. I've dealt with the ones that hate analytics and love analytics and they, you know what I mean? And it's like, we'll see. Yeah. Who knows? It'll be fun to watch. Either way, I hope he gets that job. I hope he gets that job. I hope so, too. It makes that super interesting.

It's incredible. Right? It's not interesting. If it's James Borrego, that's not interesting. I'm going to fall asleep if it's Borago. I'm going to start snoring. Terrible. You know, Mark Stein, I subscribed to his substack.

He had a story he put out tonight saying that the scuttle butt there at the finals was that the clippers are going to try to get Jeff Van Gundy. Yeah, as a that Lawrence Frank's a big fan of his and whatever. That'd be kind of cool to see Jeff Van Gundy back on a bench. Yeah,

I know, that'd be sweet. You know what I mean? I've been an advisor with the Celtics this past year and kind of easing his way back in. And Brad Stevens has been effusive in praise. Oh, yeah. On Van Gundy and kind of what he's brought to the table for the Celtics.

I guess he'll get a ring. Yeah, pretty cool. I'll be them. All right. Well, Kevin, I hope we at least get to do a podcast Monday and christen a new champion rather than talking about a finals that ended on Friday on Monday. Either way.

Well, I mean, if the finals do win on Friday, I think we'll get a lot of offseason fodder by Monday. There's no question. And then we'll have the draft right around the corner. And by the way, I mean, I would expect that. I mean, this week, Sarr worked out with the Wizards that having Risa Shays working out with the Hawks this week. So I think those workouts at the top of the draft are starting to get rolling. and we'll have some stuff next week as well because there's no clarity on number one right now.

None. We'll see. I got an Alex Saar video scouting report that I edited all by myself. I'm very happy with it. Oh. On Friday on Ringer NBA's YouTube page, you'll find the link to it on my social channels as well.

Does it have low lights too? Oh, lots of low lights. Oh, it does. It's not just a mixtape of him being awesome. No, it's pretty fair, pretty critical. there'll be a written version on the site as well, but the video version is better because it's a visual medium. But yeah, so check that out as well.

All right, real quickly, because we're going to be doing a bunch of draft stuff, which player of these draft guys, because you've interviewed a bunch of them so far, or you've come in contact with him and met him. And I know you were, you really liked McCain when you met him. I remember you telling me that.

McCain is so lovable. So who is the guy that you walked at, you're like that you liked personally the most oh it's jared mccain really jared mccain is just so bright so so such a big personality such so likeable so like he just oozes genuine genuine like a student body president guy i don't know no he just no he just oozes genuine energy like he's just true to himself like i mean i know people criticize the painted nails and all that but that's just who he is. He's not afraid to be himself. And the way he talked about his mindset, he's good wisdom for his young age. He's definitely someone who's worked on himself

mentally, obviously physically to be a basketball player, but he's very impressive. And I... You walked out liking him. I love Jared McCain, yeah. And then Manus Bezellas really liked him. It was my second time interview viewing him as well. Buzellas, he's like a dark horse to go number one to the Hawks. He's more likely, you know, four to the spurs or five to the pistons, I would think. He was supposed to be one before all this stuff went down. Yeah, and so we'll see if slash when he works out for the Hawks if that happens. But Bozellis, I like him a lot.

I think he's got a good head on his shoulders. He definitely really likes basketball and like the amount of skill. Like his body's changed. Like even since I last, when I first met him last August when I interviewed him with the Ignite, he's bigger now. Like you can tell he's definitely trained hard. Yeah, Busellis, I like him a lot. I like all the kids that I interviewed.

But Buzellis and McCain were definitely the two. I remember we did that part. We did that pot. I still regret that I didn't get to see Holland. But I went down to the G League game to watch Bezellas with full intent of hating on him. And I ended up like, damn, man. Yeah, he's good. This guy's tough.

This guy gets in the mix. And when you take into consideration at his age, the G League is good now. It's got a lot of good players. It's got a lot of guys that could be NBA players right now. now and like former NBA players. That's why there will be expansion. The G-League is good. There's a lot of players who should be and could be.

And this guy's 18 years old. Yeah. And he's out there, you know, in the mix with all these guys. And I was like, damn, man, I was expected not to like this guy and I ended up liking him. Yeah, I know, I like Buzellas a lot. He's just so versely. He's a good basketball player. He can defend, you know, multiple positions.

He can handle the ball. He can pull up from mid-range, finish at the basket. It's just, you know, what level is the three-release? reach. How much does the handling continue to advance? I think this is it. He's not a bad athlete and he could dribble and he could pass and he can shoot. So you know I like him. Yeah.

He might end up number one. He might. Good. We'll see how these workouts go with the hogs. It sounds like they were very impressed with Donovan Klingin, who they worked out last week, center out of Yukon. But, you know, they haven't seen Sari yet as far as I've heard. They're seeing Reese's Shay this week.

And Buzellas and Sarr will see if those. those workouts come at some point, and then they could also be a trade-down team. So we'll see what happens. This draft's actually going to be really fun to talk about it. I'm really excited about it. I know like there's no, I understand. Yeah, I understand that there's not like a big name star player. There's no Victor, there's no Zion, there's no AD, there's nothing like that.

But to me, this is a deep draft with good talent, not great talent, but good talent. And we're seeing how important those guys are in the playoffs to winning championship. and making finals and going deep in the playoffs, these role players matter, and some of those guys end up popping and turning into stars. But putting aside all that even, it's just the drama of the night with the uncertainty. Nobody knows where anybody's going to go.

I've said this for weeks. It feels so much like the Anthony Bennett one. It really does. There could be surprises. And everyone, throughout that entire, draft, everyone had Ben McElmore, number one, from Kansas. Yeah.

And then by the time it came around, I think Bacobor ended up going like seven or something. And it was like Bennett and Oladipo and Dragon Bender and whoever. That wasn't the Bender. What was it? Who was three? Was it? Was it Chris Dunn? No, Noel?

No, no. Oh, yeah. Chris Dunn was the Jalen Brown year. 2013. Do I know my top 10 that year? Yes. My top 10 in 2013. This is on Celtics blog.com, 2013.

You can find it on there. My whole top 50. My top 10. Victor Oladipo, number one. That's good. Nerlens Noel number two. Ben McNachlamour number three. Anthony Bennett number four.

Alex Lenn number five. Otto Porter six. Trey Burke, seven. C.J. McCollum, eight. Yon Assange de Kumpo, nine. Shabaz Mohammed, 10. That was my top 10. That's crazy.

You had Yonis. Hi. I did have Yonis High, number nine. How about that? But still too low. I had him behind Alex Lenn, Otto, Porter, Trayberg, C.J. McCall. I had them too low. In exact science.

I know. Draft is tough, man. It's very hard. I read something earlier today. Let me see if I could find this, where it said that I was in shock disbelief. it was about what year would it have been? Was it like 16? What was the Dragon Bender year?

16. That was 16. Jalen Brown and Chris Dunn that year. Okay. Okay, so that's what? I guess it's eight years ago. Yeah. Okay, 15 of the 30 are not in the NBA.

That's something else, isn't it? In the first round. That's something else. 15 of 30. Yeah. Wild. Let's wrap up the pod with this. Guess which player I had ranked one spot ahead of Rudy O'Ber?

Rudy O'Berreree I had ranked 35th, too low. Guess who I had one spot of head of him, 2013 drafts. I mean, it's 11 years ago. I know. It's hard to remember who was even in the draft, I know. Just throw out a name. It's a name we've talked about in this podcast today. In this podcast today?

Tim Hardaway, Jr. Yeah. I had Hardaway, Jr., You're near 34. Oh, wow. 35. That's crazy. That was wrong.

It was wrong. It was wrong. Oops, my bad. Oh, well. It happens. It happens. All right. Kevin is always a pleasure.

Look, whether or not we're getting to talk after a game five, we'll be talking on money. If we're not talking about a game five, then we'll put a bow on the season and we'll get to start talking hardcore NBA draft. Or maybe we're going to be talking. after a game on Monday night. Either way, we'll reconvene then. Thank you to our executive producer, Jesse Lopez, as always.

And Kevin, I'll talk to you on Monday night. Can't wait. Enjoy the weekend. Must be 21 plus in present select states or 18 plus in D.C. Fandul is offering online sports wagering in Kansas under an agreement with the Kansas Star Casino LLC. Gambling problem, call 1-800 gambler or visit fandul.com slash RG. In Colorado, D.C., Iowa, Michigan, New Jersey.

North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Kentucky, Tennessee, Virginia, and Vermont. In Arizona, call 1-800 next step or text next step to 533342. In Connecticut, call 1-88-787-87, or visit ccpg.org forward slash chat. In Indiana, call 1-800-9 with it. In Kansas, call 1-800-5-2-4700 or visit KSgamblinghelp.com. In Louisiana, call 1-877-7-770 stop. In Maryland, visit MD gambling help.org. In West Virginia, visit 1800 gambler.net.

In Wyoming, call 1-800-5224,400. In Massachusetts, visit gambling helpline, MA.org, or call 1-800-327-50 for 24-7 support. And in New York, call 1-8778 Hope New York or text, Hope New York.